Lead On Podcast

On this episode of The Lead On Podcast, Jeff Iorg, president of the SBC Executive Committee, explains why churches need strong leaders and why we often resist them. He clarifies the difference between abusive, authoritarian leadership and healthy, authoritative leadership, then shows how strong leaders do their best work when they lead within accountable teams that balance their strengths and keep their egos in check.

Creators and Guests

Host
Jeff Iorg
President, SBC Executive Committee

What is Lead On Podcast?

Ready to hone your leadership skills and unlock your full potential? Tune in to the Lead On Podcast, where Jeff Iorg dives deep into Biblical leadership.

Hosted by SBC Executive Committee President Jeff Iorg, this dynamic podcast provides insight for seasoned executives, aspiring leaders, or those in ministry who are simply passionate about personal growth. The Lead On Podcast offers actionable, practical tips to help you navigate the complexities of ministry leadership in today's ever-changing world.

From effective communication and team building to strategic decision-making and fostering innovation, each episode is packed with valuable lessons and inspiring stories to empower you on your leadership journey.

Put these principles into practice and Lead On!

Jeff Iorg:

Welcome to the Lead On Podcast. This is Jeff Iorg, the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, continuing our conversation today about practical issues related to ministry leadership. Today, I wanna talk about the importance of having strong leaders. Strong leaders in your church and strong leaders in your team. Now, I use the phrase strong leaders today, I'm talking about people who have big personalities, who are often very bright and often very articulate, who can be willful and sometimes hard to work with.

Jeff Iorg:

Now, on the one hand, we say we want strong leaders, but on the other hand, I'm not sure that our actions always communicate that we really want them.

Jeff Iorg:

We say we want strong willed, strong minded, spirited men and women to lead us forward. But when that kind of person emerges, are we comfortable with them, and do we want that kind of leadership among us? Now strong leaders

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are resisted or at least we are reluctant to embrace the concept for several reasons, but three I wanna highlight on the podcast. First, sometimes we resist strong leaders because of other destructive leaders that we perceived as strong leaders and their legacy in our lives. Another is the result of poor decisions by followers in relationship to leaders. And the third emerges from a misreading of scripture about authority structures and seeing them through contemporary cultural lenses rather than through timeless biblical truth. So let's talk about these three in more detail.

Jeff Iorg:

First, we resist strong leaders sometimes because in the past, other destructive leaders have done things to us that left a negative leadership legacy in our lives.

Jeff Iorg:

We confuse authoritative leadership with authoritarian leadership, creating conflict by mixing these two together and not recognizing the difference in them. Authoritative leaders are healthy leaders. They may be strong, strong personalities, strong minded, strong willed. They may be bright and articulate, but they are authoritative in the sense that they are healthy leaders who understand the biblical parameters for using and abusing power. Authoritative doesn't have anything to do with being a strong minded, strong willed, big personality leader.

Jeff Iorg:

It has everything to do with misusing power and authority in ministry relationships. Authoritative

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leaders are strong leaders, but they demonstrate strength under control. They are under authority themselves, under the authority of God and under the authority of their leadership group or their organizational structure. They are under authority, submitting to some kind of leadership team or accountability group. Authoritative leaders are secure in their role, gentle in their use of power, and deft at using appropriate authority to shepherd their followers forward. They personify the biblical characteristic of meekness, which means strength under control.

Jeff Iorg:

So it is possible to be an authoritative leader, all of these positive characteristics that I've just given you, while also being a strong leader with a forceful personality, firm voice, a strong will.

Jeff Iorg:

Now authoritarian leaders, on the other hand, are power hungry leaders who use their position to achieve their objectives no matter the cost to their organization or to their followers. To them,

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people are expendable, and most policies don't apply to them. They drive their convictions into people rather than guide people to implement shared commitments. They they're autocratic and they often communicate whether by word or deed, the rules just don't apply to me. And one of

Jeff Iorg:

the ways you can tell a authoritarian leader from an authoritative leader is that authoritarian leaders demand of their followers what they're not willing to model themselves, like proper submission to authority. They demand it of others, but they don't model it themselves, Like proper relationship to authority structures, but they don't model that themselves. Cooperation with organizational policies and the practice of spiritual disciplines. The list goes on. Authoritarian leaders demand of others what they won't do themselves.

Jeff Iorg:

And so when an authoritarian leader is a strong leader,

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strong willed, forceful voice, big personality, bright mind, quick wit, that authoritarian leader

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uses that strength of personality, if you will,

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to drive agenda rather than shepherd people. And these kind of leaders are abusive and guilty of ministerial malpractice. They they mangle people emotionally and hurt people spiritually.

Jeff Iorg:

And this kind of leader poisons

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their followers' perspective on leadership, and quite frankly,

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makes it exponentially harder for another strong leader to come along later and do an effective job. When a when a Christian is subject if you've been one of these, you know what it feels like. When a Christian is subjected to this kind of spiritual abuse, they not only reject it, but they also oftentimes reject any semblance of so called leadership they perceive to be anything like it in the future.

Jeff Iorg:

So if you've been abused by an

Jeff Iorg:

authoritarian leader, when an authoritative leader comes into your context, you may find yourself being somewhat resistant.

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Because on the surface, the strength of personality, the voice, the will, the intelligence, the the influence, all of that may cause you to think that you're dealing with another authoritarian leader when you might be dealing with a person who's much healthier than that.

Jeff Iorg:

Now the legacy of these authoritarian leaders can take years to overcome as the wounds of this kind of spiritual abuse heal slowly.

Jeff Iorg:

And as a result of these poisonous relationship, some Christians reject any semblance of strong leadership. They toss out the baby with the bath, so to speak. And when this happens, the value of legitimate authoritative leadership is diminished or sadly even lost. Now this is the first reason

Jeff Iorg:

why we are reluctant to promote, to use, to facilitate, to place,

Jeff Iorg:

and to follow strong leaders because we equate strong leaders with authoritarian leadership styles rather than authoritative leadership choices. It is possible to be a strong leader, strong in personality, strong in voice, strong in will, and fall into either of these categories of description, authoritarian or authoritative. If you've been subjected to the dark side of this, it may be very difficult for you to embrace the positive side of this going forward. Do not allow past bad experiences with authoritarian leaders to rob you or your organization, you or your church, of the blessing and power of having strong authoritative leaders.

Jeff Iorg:

Okay. A second reason why we resist strong leadership emerges from really poor decisions by their followers in relationship to leadership, even healthy leadership. You know, strong leaders are sometimes resisted because they threaten existing power bases in churches. Pet projects or ministries some members don't want changed or and sinful behavior some believers want ignored. These are self serving reasons believers used to justify resistance to pastoral leaders having authority over them.

Jeff Iorg:

And quite frankly,

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churches and ministry organizations, the landscape is littered with them when they have decided to make this tragic choice. We're not having anybody tell us what to do. We've always done it this way before. We like things just the way they are. What I'm doing isn't sinful.

Jeff Iorg:

You don't need to see this or deal with this. This is not your responsibility. This is my pet project or my pet ministry. Don't change this. Don't change anything.

Jeff Iorg:

When followers have that kind of resistance, it's not just resistance to strong leadership, it's resistance to any kind of leadership, period, that's pressing them to make necessary changes. Look, if you're this when when you're a leader and you face this kind of resistance, you have to couple prophetic speaking with calculated, courageous decision making, affirming like Daniel said, even if God doesn't rescue us, we'll not serve your gods. You know, confronting this kind of entrenched carnality, this

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guarding of unholy turf manning outdated ministry programs, masking secret sin, this is all painful. But confronting all of this is sometimes necessary. Now this is like a physician opening up a wound. It it it's infected and the stench can be noxious.

Jeff Iorg:

Inflicting pain like this is difficult, but sometimes it's required. And if you're a follower who will not relent, you may lose the opportunity to go forward in your life or in your church or in your organization because you would not respond to strong leadership. Strong leaders sometimes have to confront followers. They have

Jeff Iorg:

to confront followers for being self serving, for making decisions that are kingdom expansion limiting. They have to confront followers who are self absorbed, who are sin defenders, who are resistant to change. They have to confront followers who have chosen to limit God's work and to move away from God's ways. And sometimes this this confrontation by a strong leader in these contexts can be can be harsh. Galatians five twelve is one of those examples in the Bible.

Jeff Iorg:

Paul's sarcastic wish for the, quote, circumcision party to experience castration illustrates the depth of his disdain

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and the sarcasm in his aggressive opposition to these misguided believers. There wasn't much subtle about that.

Jeff Iorg:

Now here's the caution for you today.

Jeff Iorg:

If you have strong leaders around you and they're giving you authoritative leadership, not authoritarian, authoritative leadership. Rather than resist them, how about pay attention?

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God sends strong leaders to say strong words, to confront issues that need to be addressed, to call for change that's oftentimes long overdue. Don't be a person who makes the tragic mistake of resisting strong leadership because you are defending something that needs to be given up.

Jeff Iorg:

And then third, a third reason that people reject strong leaders or struggle with strong leaders is misreading scripture passages about authoritative leadership through current cultural lenses rather than timeless truth.

Jeff Iorg:

Now part of the issue is the infiltration into the church of the general rejection of authority structures in modern culture. Now, again, I've already talked about the difference between authoritarian and authoritative. But there are legitimate authority structures expressed in the family and expressed in the church, and those legitimate authority structures are then put into place by authoritative leaders who have a responsibility to fulfill the work that God has given them in leading in the home or the community or the church or the organization in some cases. God affirms authority structures in these contexts and he places leaders in authority in those structures to give order and guidance and protection, not only to the church and people in general, but just society as a whole. Rejecting these structures and rejecting the leaders that God has put in place to work through those structures and to enforce those structures invites chaos.

Jeff Iorg:

Now, to be sure, misusing these structures brings about oppression and abuse and we already know that's wrong. But we've already come to understand on this podcast that you cannot make a blanket statement that all strong leaders are wrong because all strong leaders are authoritarian leaders and must be resisted. No. Many strong leaders are authoritative leaders. They are serving under authority.

Jeff Iorg:

They are operating in the system that God has placed them. They evidence humility and a deference to those who themselves have authority over them. They are the kind of leaders that we want, and when they come with a strong word, they come with a forceful personality, they come with a quick mind and a sharp wit. These are people that we have to listen to and learn from and try to follow. Living in harmony with these kinds of leaders, appropriately functioning in the authority structures that have been established by God, produces balance and blessing.

Jeff Iorg:

And denying them denying them undermines the timeless truth of God's order in societal structure like the home and the church and the community, and robs us of the blessing of not only living safely, but of advancing and changing and growing and developing ministry that really will only be done

Jeff Iorg:

with a strong leader on the point saying, come on, follow me. Let's go. We can do this. But to get there, we're gonna have to change.

Jeff Iorg:

So don't reject strong leaders by reading scripture through cultural lenses. Make sure that you understand that God has established authority structures, and he does send authoritative leaders, and that is his means of calling us forward together. Now part of the core of all of this is, of course, deep understanding that God is at work, ultimately in charge, and in process through both his leaders and the systems that he puts in place to accomplish his purposes. Now can these relationships become unhealthy and destructive? Do leaders sometimes become autocratic?

Jeff Iorg:

Do they shift from authoritative to authoritarian? Do followers sometimes resist change or make the mistake of reading leadership through culture rather than through scripture? Absolutely yes to all of this. Yet despite the potential for abuse rooted in the shared sinfulness of leaders and followers, despite the potential for abuse, we have to work at applying God's design for leadership structures in the church. Doing that is still a better strategy than rejecting these models or creating alternative models.

Jeff Iorg:

Look, God is at work through strong leaders. And it's those strong leaders that often give churches and organizations and sometimes even families the impetus to go forward. Now,

Jeff Iorg:

factor in this is that the cultural expectation of some ministry leaders is that they're soft, nice fellows who dress nicely, talk softly, smile sweetly. They're gentle souls. They care for everyone. They keep the peace, avoid the controversy. Well, that may be a stereotypical modern model, but it is not the biblical ideal.

Jeff Iorg:

When you look at strong leaders in the Bible, these were men and in some cases, women also who represent God. They stand up for his love and his holiness. They talk about his mercy and his wrath. They preach about forgiveness and also judgment. And they talk about God's consolation for, but also discipline of, his children.

Jeff Iorg:

Biblical, strong leaders are much more global and comprehensive in their message than many modern people want them to be.

Jeff Iorg:

You know, in the Bible, on a number of occasions in the book of Acts, it describes a leader, and it says that the person stood up and then said something consequential. Now I I think the phrase stood up means they literally stood up. The body language is important. But more

Jeff Iorg:

than that, this is a literary clue to the intensity, the boldness, and the courage of leaders who are willing to stand up and be counted. God has a plan to use strong leaders.

Jeff Iorg:

He gives his church and his ministry organizations and his families, gives them strong leaders, sometimes leaders with a big personality, with a strong voice, quick mind, razor sharp wit. He gives them the capacity to move people with words and to take a stand on issues and to see through things and to make insightful and wise judgments about them. Yes. There is the dark side. These leaders can become authoritarian rather than authoritative.

Jeff Iorg:

The behavior of leaders in the past can so jade followers that they're unwilling to be responsive to appropriate, strong leadership. And we can find ourselves rejecting these kind of leaders because we want them to fit some kind of cultural model of sweet Christianity rather than the biblical model of leaders who have a global message, a a balanced message,

Jeff Iorg:

but a message that's strong and calls us to be different people than we really are. Now

Jeff Iorg:

in the context of this, if you're one of these strong leaders, and many of you who listen to this podcast are strong leaders, What can you do to check yourself and make sure that you remain an authoritative leader, that you give strong leadership but in a biblical manner, and that you avoid any kind of destructive behavior that would leave a legacy in people's lives that would cause them to resist your leadership and certainly to resist the leadership of others that might come along subsequently to you as additional strong leader. Well, the solution is for strong leaders

Jeff Iorg:

to learn to lead together.

Jeff Iorg:

To learn to lead in the context of a team or a group is the key. You know, I've studied the leaders at the church of Antioch quite a bit and studied the leaders of the book of acts even more broadly. It's really interesting that in the stories, for example, in Antioch, the leaders are almost always mentioned in a group context or setting. The church planters who started the church are mentioned in the plural. The church leaders in, Acts chapter 13 are listed in the plural.

Jeff Iorg:

Barnabas, when he showed up in the pastoral responsibility, only remained in that role a short time, and then he went, fetched Paul, put him on the team, and the two of them worked together really from this moment forward for a significant number of years in their lives. This is an example of what I mean when I say these strong leaders worked in a team environment or worked in a group context. You know, when Paul and Barnabas were sent out for their first missionary trip, they went together as a partnership, not alone. When they got ready to go on their second trip, they had a

Jeff Iorg:

little trouble over John Mark. You remember that story. But when that was settled, what happened? Both Paul and Barnabas picked a new partner and went out in ministry two by two. Paul and Barnabas recognized they would be far more effective working with someone than as solo missionaries.

Jeff Iorg:

That's what I learned along the

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way and decided to implement when I became a church planter. My partner, Joe Flegal, and I went to the Northwest and planted the church together. Remarkable time of ministry that we encourage one another to accomplish over the years. Now this pattern in the New Testament continues beyond church planting when the debate broke out in Acts 15, over the doctrine of salvation. Paul and Barnabas went up there together and took on the Judaizers and won that great debate.

Jeff Iorg:

You know, you go on through the book of Acts and you see that when Paul was involved in ministry, it was almost always with a partner or a team. This is the pattern, not only in Antioch, but on through the missionary trips that he took and then with first with Barnabas and then with Silas, and then after that, on through the New Testament, always or excuse me, on through the book of Acts, Paul finding himself working in a team or with a partner.

Jeff Iorg:

You know, the rare exception was Paul in Athens in Acts chapter 17, and that is considered his least productive ministry location. Now think about that. Most of the time in Acts, Paul

Jeff Iorg:

is described as being with someone or the word we is used to describe Paul being with someone who was actually doing the writing or the speaking or the traveling in that context. This all reminds us that Paul and his team traveled and lived and worked together. When Paul started appointing churches, notice that he appointed elders, always with an s, not an elder in church leadership. Throughout the book of Acts and into the early church letters, the predominant model of leadership was a plurality of men working together, sharing those church leadership roles. Look, the secret to maximizing the successful impact of strong leaders is the tempering effect of working in a team environment.

Jeff Iorg:

When a pastor, for example, is the leader of equals, there's still a sense of mutual submission. It keeps one personality or opinion or persuasion from dominating the decision making process. In a context where I'm serving in an organizational capacity, Having vice presidents and board officers who interface with me on a regular basis keeps me in check. I'm considered a strong leader, but my strengths are kept in check by working in a team environment, and that team environment helps filter out my weaknesses and maximize the positive contribution that I can make. You know, a group of people working together is almost always more effective than the one standing alone.

Jeff Iorg:

The Bible says plans fail when there is no counsel, but with many advisers, they succeed, Proverbs fifteen twenty two.

Jeff Iorg:

So a church or a ministry organization

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needs strong leaders, but strong leaders need a team. We need deacons or elders or trustees or an executive cabinet or board members or a leadership council. We need somebody around us for balance and perspective. And this kind of effective team is more than a collection of yes men. It's a team of equals working collaboratively, committed to consensus decisions on matters of preference particularly, and determined to ask each other hard questions that lead to intentional mission driven decision.

Jeff Iorg:

This, my friends, is the secret to getting the best contribution from strong leaders while also mitigating the sinful tendencies of overbearing egos. So let's ask God for more strong willed, quick minded, action oriented, definitive decision making leaders. Let's ask God for more of them. Let's don't be afraid of strong leaders. Let's ask God for them.

Jeff Iorg:

But let's then also insist that they learn to work in the check and balance of a team environment. Doing so assures the best leadership possible by balancing the drive of strong leaders with the collective balance of a wise team. Look, if you're currently a solo leader and you think that's what it means to be a strong leader, take the initiative to develop and participate with a team and you will find your strength of leadership will only be magnified. I believe we need strong leaders. People who can move the needle forward, people who make a difference.

Jeff Iorg:

But I also believe that there's some inherent dangers in that which must be addressed and that the most important thing we can do to mitigate those dangers is learning to work in a partnership or a team environment. We need strong leaders. I hope you are one and hope you work in a partnership or a team environment to maximize the contribution you can make and mitigate the negative that will come along with your strengths. Put it into practice as you lead on.