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Derek's colleague and mentor Brad Ferguson talk Purpose.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to essential dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson. Essential dynamics is a framework I've been developing to help think through tricky situations. And in this podcast, we test the concepts of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. In season three, I really want to focus on helping leaders of organizations get clear on their challenges and opportunities, really their their quest in their business.
Derek:And today, I'm thrilled to introduce and welcome an interesting person, Brad Ferguson, who's, been an example and a mentor to me. And whether he's figured out or not, he's been a major contributor to essential dynamics to the framework. So I've always admired Brad's epic visionary thinking and his ability to rally people to a cause. So, Brad, welcome. Thanks for joining us today.
Brad:Well, Derek, it's great to be here. And I I think the feeling's mutual between the two of us. I think we've reinforced each other's careers and lives, and, it's nice to be here. I'm glad I made it to season three. I I didn't I didn't get the call for season one or season two.
Brad:So I, you know, I'm glad I at least I made season three. I appreciate that, Derek.
Derek:Yeah. And, you know, that's an interesting question we could discuss is, like, you know, when when do you need Brad? And really, what I want to do with season three is focus on the business questions. And, and I really want to focus on purpose. And so today, if we can, for a few minutes, I want to talk about creating a purpose driven organization.
Derek:So maybe to start, Brad, I'd just be interested in what are some experiences you've had, where you've been part of or helped create a, you know, very, very strong purpose driven organization?
Brad:Well, it's, you know, it's interesting. I I go back, you know, that's a question that I think I can go back to some of the earliest times in my life where I've I got a chance to learn from some pretty amazing people. You know, my my father being one who had a a little real estate company, and I got to see how, you know, he galvanized the interest of his employees and their families. And, you know, they they found cause in what they were doing, and they were, you know, trying to become one of the larger real estate firms in Western Canada, this little firm from Edmonton. And, you know, you saw what a mission driven organization was.
Brad:And then later in my life, I, I was trained, first of all, under Procter and Gamble, which actually it, it has a reputation of kind of like a cult like culture. And but really when you broke that apart, and I think when I reflect on it later in life, it was all purpose based in terms of how, how that organization introduced products that helped changed, change people's, lives at home and and, and selves. And then, you know, a little later in life when I had a chance to lead some organizations, I think that's where I got a chance to test some of the concepts I've learned over the career and into a little petri dish called an organization. And, you've got to you've got to bring ideas to market, you got to watch people's reactions, you got to see and feel that hair on the back of the neck of people stand up as well as your own. When you spoke the right word at the right time that you you realize that it wasn't just one or two people, but you were able to create a movement.
Brad:And, you know, those are pretty special times. You know, one of the best that you and I had the chance to share together was our time at Edmonton Economic Development, where, you know, we talked about redefining leadership in the public service. You know, and that was very purpose based, that we had a chance to wake up every morning with a responsibility to build a remarkable city. And you got to see what that did to young people that came to work every day. And, you know, finding those words and finding what resonates with the market, the organization, like the board, but your, your team and the culture and getting all those aligned, just created some fabulous experiences for me in my life.
Brad:But also, I think you had a, hopefully, a small role in changing how other people got to view organizations and the the whole aspect of what is work. And when you can when you can get purpose and work aligned, wow, magic happens, Derek. Magic arrives.
Derek:So Brad, I gotta tell you, the hair stood up on the back of my neck as you, recited, you know, the purpose that we were, that we worked together on. And I think, I think it's more rare in many people's experience than it should be. You know, when I think about Edmonton Economic Development, I used to tell this story is, we'd be interviewing people for administrative positions in finance, accounts payable, IT, and say, why do you want to work here? And people would say, because I love this city, I love what you do, and I want to be a part of it. And if you have an accounts payable person who thinks that way, man, a whole bunch of stuff gets real easy.
Brad:Yeah. Very true. And I remember, you know, interviewing people. I also remember letting people go because they didn't get it. You know, they, they didn't love their city.
Brad:And when you come to work every day, and you don't love the product that you are either manufacturing or distributing, it's pretty tough to look at that person and say you belong here. You, you, I don't know how you could possibly be happy here if you don't love the product that you're, you're manufacturing, you're distributing, or at least trying to make it better. If it's not the product you love, then, you know, what's your role in helping me get better?
Derek:And Absolutely. So one of the things you said, one of the words you said, a few minutes ago, that I remember you using a lot is resonance. And, how have you found that resonance where you're aligning the purpose of an organization with the desires of the people and maybe the needs of the customer?
Brad:So I have no original thought. I steal really good ideas from people I met along the way. And one of the people I met was a a gentleman named Scott Bedbury. And Scott, had this remarkable, you know, time in his life where he was both the brand manager for Nike when they did the, you know, the Just Do It campaign.
Derek:Just Do
Brad:It campaign. And he was the brand manager for Starbucks when they launched. So, you know, what two better brands do you, you know, could you possibly represent at that those moments in time? And I had the opportunity to meet Scott down in San Diego One time. And, he talked about the three R's, the, you know, relevance, resonance, and respect.
Brad:And so when I use the word resonance, I I I borrowed it from him in terms of, you know, when your organization or when your product meets a moment in time where it's needed in the world. And so that, you know, the things you were talking about, the words you're espousing, the culture you're building, the energy you're putting off, is exactly what the world needs. And when you resonate at that level, you appear on people's speed dial, you know, they want to talk to you, they want to get you involved. And, and then if you disappeared, it's, you know, you're not left with that question that, you know, you're always afraid to ask, which is if, if you weren't here, would anybody matter? Or would sorry, would anyone care?
Brad:And when you really resonate, that that's never in question. And actually, Edmonton Economic Development is a great example where we, you know, we built a great organization, and then it's since been dismantled. And what we've learned through the dismantling is, you know, we might have run a conference center and tourism and all the investment attraction, but it was all that soft connective tissue that, you know, creating task force in the community and getting business people involved, community leaders, political leaders, whatever involved in things. Once that organization disappeared, and that loose connective tissue disappeared in in the city, people have now went, wait a minute. It did matter when it disappeared.
Brad:Something is missing. And that's a lot of, you know, that's a lot of the energy that organization brought at that moment in time. And when it did disappear or, you know, and it's in now in different shape or form, it's funny how those things are are missing today.
Derek:Well, that's very interesting, and I think we could do four episodes on, the background of that, which we probably will never record. There's I don't know that there's a point, but one of the things that I find really interesting is because there was a common purpose that the whole organization felt a part of, you could have very different components. And it seemed easy to bring them together. I mean, it wasn't, wasn't that easy. We spent a lot of time on that.
Derek:But you could always go back to what does the city need? And, and, and what does the world need from Edmonton? So one of the things I want to explore with you for a minute then is this concept that I've come up with in essential dynamics about having two purposes. And, I think sometimes, perhaps you could state in a strategic planning exercise or something, this is the purpose of the organization. But my experience is, there's something else.
Derek:If there's a purpose X, there's also a purpose Y, maybe it's not stated. Maybe purpose X is, we're going to solve the customer's problem. And purpose Y is, well, we really need to provide for our employees and owners or something like that. As we've talked about that, is there anything in putting two purposes on the table that will help with alignment and resonance, do you think?
Brad:Yeah, I think that's, you're making me reflect on past things, but also my current, you know, situation. I'm, I'm leading an organization called Optimus SBR out of Toronto. And it's, it's it's the largest independent consulting firm in the country right now. And which is interesting, which is how do you bring purpose into a consulting firm where every project's different, and, you know, you do everything from process reengineering to strategy to technology implementations in public sector and private sector? How do you bring purpose to that?
Brad:And I've spent quite a bit of time watching our people work on projects, work with clients, try to figure out what makes their tails wag, you know. And, and there's two parts. What I've come up with, you call it Purpose X and Y. And I've just always called them two parts of things. One is external, and one is internal.
Brad:And when those get aligned, again, it really helps with the resonance of the organization to our staff and the pea in their lives. But also, the the customers see that as well. They see our teams work differently when those purposes are aligned. So we we have one which is very much to improve the productivity and performance of organizations across Canada. You know, that's externally facing.
Brad:That's kind of what the offering is. But internally, our our people get to work on teams with wickedly smart people to solve very complex problems. And that that reaches down into, you know, the, the inner workings of what, how do I contribute to this team? Am I expanding my mind? Am I, am I solving something that's never been solved before?
Brad:Am I using the benefits of the team to make that happen? And am I growing through the process? Right? So when we can find a project that is extremely challenging externally and extremely challenging to internally, I find that's what brings out the best in our teams. And people, you know, they wake up inspired, they come to the work, and then they go to bed fulfilled.
Brad:They might have worked their tails off that day. But I'll tell you, they go to bed and they're fulfilled, and, they're tired, but they're fulfilled. And I think that's, that allows people and company, like employee and company, employer and employee to be very aligned in the journey they're on. And when those become aligned, you resonate, externally and internally. But also, you're then able to kind of reset the bar of what's next in your journey, you know, as an organization, as an and then as an individual.
Brad:So.
Derek:I think that's fantastic, because the internal purpose, is neutral in terms of, the industry or the particular problem. So the organization doesn't have to get locked into, this is what we do, and this is how we do it. Because the promise to the people is, you're gonna do stuff you haven't done before. We have a way of thinking about that, but we don't actually know the answer right now. But we're going to put you with a bunch of smart people, both on the consultant side and the client side, I'm assuming.
Brad:Yep.
Derek:And then, and then that's when the magic happens, and then you get to do it again. So, so that's your business. I had some experience with that when I was at a big four accounting firm, both in the accounting and the consulting side. But I think I created some of that myself. Because, I wanted to learn and I wanted new experiences, so I was willing to try things.
Derek:And sometimes that aligned with what the firm wanted, and sometimes I didn't think they really cared. But they're they were that far away from being able to line everybody up if they thought it if they thought of it that way.
Brad:I think that's interesting. I believe you probably brought a lot of that yourself based on who you are. And part of the reason is when you get into the really large firms, entrepreneurial thinking is often overshadowed by risk management. And it doesn't allow for a freedom of expression and for those teams to really bring out the best, because the best sometimes requires massive creativity of things that have never been done before versus a formula. So that's that's probably the reason that I'm not at one of those firms.
Brad:I'm in a very entrepreneurial thinking, and bold culture type of organization today. So
Derek:Well, that's fantastic. So now let me switch it a little bit. So you work with clients to solve tricky problems. They don't necessarily have the culture that your firm does. They may be more bureaucratic, they may be more risk averse.
Derek:How do we help organizations, get a common conspiring culture and bring people along when they've got fifty or one hundred years of paying people to show up?
Brad:Yeah, that's a great question. And one of the tricky ones to solve. I yeah, I can't reach into my pocket and pull out an answer for that. I think there's a process, though, of really understanding where that organization is, where it's come from, where it is, and what's the potential of where it can go. And getting that moment right of not pushing it too far, but finding the right pace and the right trajectory of growth and change is one of the trickiest things you can do in our business.
Brad:But, you know, any organization, any leader going through that is really understanding that moment in time and how hard to push an organization. Because if, you know, the old phrase was, you know, strategy eats culture for breakfast, or no, culture eats Culture
Derek:eats strategy. Yeah. That's the one.
Brad:Yeah. Sorry. That's yeah, culture eats strategy for breakfast. I'm a big believer that that's probably wrong. And it's actually getting strategy and culture perfectly aligned.
Brad:And moving at the right pace is actually what wins in the marketplace. And so, you know, organizations that transform or try to evolve too quickly often fail. They lose their staff, they lose culture, they lose what made them spec made it special, that organization special. But finding the right pace, the right strategy, the right culture, and getting those two things aligned, that's actually where I think, organizations can really take big steps forward. And, so I now I would look at that slightly differently.
Brad:That's it. Yeah.
Derek:No, I really like that. And if I go back to, the theory of constraints, which I know, you know, we've talked about before, you have to deal with the constraint. And if you have strategy and culture, at any point in time, one of them is going to be the thing that holds you back.
Brad:Yeah, interesting. Well, it was I took a year and I, I spent a year in the role of an assistant deputy minister in the government of Alberta in executive council to set up the ESG secretariat. And it was really interesting. So
Derek:Can you just let me just interrupt. Can you explain to our audience, who is varied, what ESG means?
Brad:Yeah, I can, to the best of my ability, because it changes continually. But ESG is a lens through which organizations are evaluated on non financial performance. So it's things in on environment, on governance, and on social side of their contribution. So is the organization contributing positively to their communities and to society at large? So it's a it's a lens through which organizations are often judged.
Brad:And so when I we we had the opportunity to do that for Alberta. And the question was what through what lens is Alberta judged? And as we know, the well, you know, the Alberta is often very much tied and the Alberta brand is very much tied to the brand of the oil sands. And in some people's eyes, that's viewed very negatively. In some people's eyes, it's very positively.
Brad:What we needed to do is break apart ESG, environment, social and governance aspects, to, really paint a very different picture of Alberta, of how Alberta's performance is historically, how it is today, and how it can be in the future. And so that was our task. And the theory of constraints comes in where, you know, you look at how you can take a new concept and introduce it into a very large bureaucracy. And a bureaucracy is not a negative word, it's you need bureaucracies to manage risk for an entire province, but at what speed and at what pace it can be introduced and adopted. And internalized is, was one of the great learning experiences of my my recent life.
Brad:But at the same time, being a leader in that is not taking your foot off the accelerator, not accepting non performance or non adoption, and always pushing and figuring out how hard, how fast and at what pace can we introduce these concepts into a large bureaucracy, like a provincial government. And, so the theory of constraints, you know, was very much cultural there. But it was amazing when you inspire people with a new idea, or a new framework or a new lens to see the world through. Oh, like, you know, people that had been there for twenty years, hadn't hadn't had a salary increase for seven years, their tails started wagging. You could see them react to, ah, that's the Alberta that we want in the future.
Brad:And that's it's no longer an Alberta that is, you know, the petulant child that's fighting against everything and arguing against everything. It's Alberta that's on a quest to become better. And, when we started to lay that out, it's absolutely remarkable how that became an organizing mechanism for a culture change internally. And I think that was the power of of that, that kind of one year of my life that was spent there.
Derek:Brad, I want to talk more about that. We're running out of time. Can we reconvene and, and talk about how just that that thing you said about how when people realize the potential and the purpose, they got energized. I'd like to explore that some more. Would that be okay?
Brad:I would, I'd love that topic. So welcome the opportunity.
Derek:Okay. So, for this conversation, if I can put it back to you and say, for our listeners, is there one nugget, one takeaway that you've learned, you know, that you've been sharing with us that people can kind of hang on to? They're gonna make their own conclusions. But what would you what would you point them to?
Brad:If I had one nugget, I think there's something buried in every human being that has the potential to be ignited. And it ignited in such a positive way. And sometimes it takes a long time to figure out what that is, but it's a trigger. And if you can hit that trigger, and, and turn it on and inspire that person, behavior change happens rather quickly. Change management doesn't have to be a fifty year process.
Brad:It can happen overnight. The key then is, how do you keep it turned on forever? And, kind of like, you know, I'm not going to belittle this, but you know, you stop smoking, or, you know, one day you wake up and you say, I'm going to stop smoking today. But that, you have that moment where that's, you found that trigger inside that you said, that's what I'm gonna do. Now you have to just keep that the rest of your life.
Brad:And, and keep that turned on. I think, I think it happens in the work environment as well. And, and that is cause. It's purpose based. It's, and it's very unique for for every individual.
Brad:But if you can find it and and operate it or ignite it en masse, you can create a movement very quickly.
Derek:That's that's fantastic, Brad. You know, it really resonates. Way back in our early days, we had my daughter on as a guest. My daughter's an occupational therapist. She works in the public school system, and she gave the same answer for how do you help kids do well in school is you got to find the spark and it's unique in every kid.
Derek:And, you know, sometimes, adults are just, you know, tall children. And, they really the responsibility of leadership is to find, find that spark and then work with that. It's way better than treating people as units of production and trying to incent them into some specific behavior that you want. So Brad, thanks. That was, that was fantastic.
Derek:I'm so glad that we got we had this chance to get together. Let's do it again real soon.
Brad:Brad It was my pleasure. It's such a good, it's so good to see you again. And, it's a topic that needs to be talked about more. John Slick
Derek:Baum: So Brad, how can people find you? Brad
Brad:Lubman: I try to stay away from as many people as possible. One thing I learned about myself through COVID is I'm a natural introvert, and I'm very comfortable that way. But, my, you know, my email is, brad.ferguson@optimussvr.com. And I know that's a mouthful, but optimus s v r is, strategic business resource dot com. And, happy to happy to entertain any emails that come in.
Derek:Awesome. We'll put those links in our notes. So the Essential Dynamics podcast, everyone is brought to you by Unconstrained, the consultancy that helps leaders work through their trickiest opportunities. And you can find us at getunconstrained.com. Now if what you heard today has made you think, please like, subscribe, review, and share the podcast.
Derek:Follow the link in the show notes and, join the conversation on essential dynamics. So Brad, thanks very much. Brynn Griffiths, thanks for your, support in the background. I'm Derek Hudson. Until next time, consider your quest.