What's inside that fancy old house? (with Woody LaBounty)

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The Haas-Lilienthal House is one of San Francisco’s most beautiful architectural landmarks, a gorgeous Queen Anne Victorian that stands out amid a modern landscape of grocery stores and car dealerships. Built in the 1880s in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, this beautifully preserved home offers a unique glimpse into the city's 19th-century history.

While many historic house museums are dedicated to diplomats or the incredibly wealthy, original inhabitants William and Bertha Haas were upper-middle-class merchants moving up in the world. As San Francisco Heritage CEO Woody LaBounty explains, their home's location was chosen carefully to be near the true locus of power just one block over on Van Ness Avenue, which was then a showplace boulevard of massive, elaborate estates.

Today on Call ‘Em Like Museum, Woody talks about why the Haas-Lilienthal House is now the headquarters of SF Heritage and how the organization uses it to tell the city’s story. We also discuss what makes this house museum different from so many others, why it’s so important to preserve historic architecture, and why his favorite room in the house is the bathroom.

Visit the Haas-Lilienthal House: https://www.haas-lilienthalhouse.org/
The Halloween Experience, House of Weird: https://www.haas-lilienthalhouse.org/halloween

Full transcript of this episode

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This episode was hosted, produced, and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod

Chapters
Music: www.purple-planet.com

Images:
House exterior
The Ashe-Hobart Residence
Residence of Mr. Charles Holbrook
Claus Spreckel's residence (which also survived the fire!)
1906 firefighters
The burning of the Mission District
The dining room chandelier
The house in 1975
The dining room
Golden Gate Park, c. 1925
De Young Museum, 1921
San Francisco burning
The Haas-Lilienthal House entrance
The bathroom
100 McAllister Street in the 1930s
Castro Camera
Queer Arts Featured
Salvador Dalí Museum
Salvador Dalí, 1939

Creators and Guests

Host

Eric Johnson

Podcast editor, producer, and consultant at LightningPod.fm | Working with entrepreneurs, journalists, businesses, and more to achieve their podcasting goals

Guest

Woody LaBounty

Woody LaBounty is the CEO and President of San Francisco Heritage.

What is Call 'Em Like Museum with Eric Johnson?

Call 'Em Like Museum is a weekly podcast exploring how museums really work, and why we love them. Host Eric Johnson talks with museum directors, curators, experts, and passionate fans about what drives them, from homegrown passion projects to world-famous institutions. Each episode digs into museum curation, exhibit design, and the visitor experience — plus the essential question: What's actually worth buying in the gift shop? Season One spotlights museums in the San Francisco Bay Area, including the Walt Disney Family Museum, the de Young Museum, and the Winchester Mystery House.

If your house was a museum,
why would people go there?

Maybe you were rich or powerful or
a great artist, or maybe you were in

the right place at the right time.

They were really just upper-middle-class
merchants kind of moving up in the world.

That is Woody LaBounty.

He's the CEO of San Francisco Heritage.

He's talking about William and Bertha
Haas and their family, the original

inhabitants of the Haas-Lilienthal house.

There's this idea that the Haas family
was incredibly wealthy or diplomats

when they were really just part of San
Francisco's sort of middle-class society.

The house was built in the 1880s in San
Francisco's Pacific Heights neighborhood.

And at the time, this beautiful Queen
Anne Victorian was not remotely the

nicest house in the neighborhood.

Van Ness Avenue was a showplace, a
boulevard of upper-middle-class houses

and some very large, elaborate houses.

And so if you want to be kind of
near that center of power, that

locus of power, you might build your
house a block over or a block up.

So why can people visit the
Haas-Lilienthal house and

not those larger houses?

If you know your SF history, you can
probably guess the answer: The 1906

earthquake and the ensuing fires.

Huge maelstroms over three days
burned the core of the city and a

lot of the surrounding neighborhoods.

So the Haas family are in
their house on Franklin Street.

They see this giant fire coming towards
them, heading west, and it was only

really stopped at Van Ness Avenue
because it was such a wide boulevard.

The Army and the National Guard
also dynamited a number of

these large impressive houses
to try to create the firebreak.

If those other houses were still here,
maybe we would tour them instead.

But sometimes you remember that history
is only about what gets left behind.

This is Call 'Em Like Museum,
a podcast about how museums

work and why we love them.

I'm Eric Johnson.

Today on the podcast, what
can one house teach us about

the history of San Francisco?

Why and how do old houses get
preserved for future generations?

And why, in this gorgeous home, is
Woody's favorite room the bathroom?

Woody LaBounty from SF Heritage
will answer all of that

and more right after this.

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What does SF Heritage do?

San Francisco Heritage — or SF
Heritage — is … We have our mission.

It's been about 50 years we've been
a nonprofit, and we're focused on

preserving and enhancing San Francisco's
architectural and cultural identity.

There's a lot of beautiful
houses all over the city.

I assume … Do you focus on a specific
era or a specific type of building?

How could you possibly begin to tackle
that sort of goal, that mission?

Yeah, it's not only beauty, either.

It's about historical
significance or places that are

culturally important to people.

I always say we try to preserve
the places that are special in San

Francisco because people can get
caught up in architectural details

or is this person important enough?

But really it's like, do San
Franciscans feel like this is

special and deserves attention?

And that's what we're interested in.

Before we get into the specifics
of Haas-Lilienthal, I want to talk

about your relationship with museums.

What does the word "museum"
mean to you generally?

I mean, now it's very popular to
talk about third spaces, but I think

of a museum as a third space, a
place that's not work, that's not

home, where you are going to get
some sort of cultural enrichment.

That is a very broad umbrella term,
but I do feel like I want to learn

something, I want to feel something.

And that is essentially, I feel, that
all museums, [that's] the job they

have to do: Do I learn something?

Do I feel something?

And what was your first
memory of going to a museum?

I think it might've been the de
Young or the Legion of Honor.

I grew up here in San Francisco
and those are the two big museums

we have here in addition to MoMA.

When I went to the de Young,
they had cannons and tapestries.

It was almost like grandma's attic
or an antique store in some ways.

Museums are a lot more focused these
days on what their scope is and what

they bring into their collection.

But back then it was a little bit
of history, a little bit of art, a

little bit of culture, and I just
was very attracted to that flea

market feeling of museums back then.

Yeah.

What specifically appealed to you
about that flea market feeling?

Do you remember how that made you
feel as a kid to see this old stuff?

Definitely.

To me it was like, you didn't know what
was going to happen around the corner.

And I think that is a great
thing museums should be striving

for is that sense of surprise.

So you go in a lot of museums now, you'll
see white walls and very similar type of

art, big piece of art on a white wall.

But at the de Young, it was more
like a rummage sale feeling.

You walked around and you would
see this medieval tapestry and then

you'd turn the corner and there'd
be a cannon and then you'd turn

another corner and there'd be an oil
painting from a French Impressionist.

And so I loved that sense of surprise,
that it seemed like a never-ending

place that was going to have something
to excite me around every corner.

Is that a feeling you are
still chasing to this day?

When you go to a museum, are you looking
for that serendipity and surprise?

Yeah, I don't know if
I go in with an agenda.

I try to be very open, but that's usually
… The museums I like give me that.

So yeah, let's talk about
the Haas-Lilienthal House.

This is a building that is owned
by SF Heritage, is that right?

That is right.

And also your office.

That's right.

Which is extremely cool.

If anyone has been to the Haas-Lilienthal
House, they know how cool it is

because it is a beautiful building.

Talk about the neighborhood that
it's in and what makes it "special,"

to use your word from before.

It's an 1886 Queen Anne Victorian.

It was originally a residence
for an upper-middle-class family.

Some people will say, oh, it's a mansion,
but we don't have grounds or stables.

It fits in a basic city lot in San
Francisco, but it's got a turret, it's

got so much architectural detail going on.

And I think what surprises people
is it's on a very busy street now.

It's on Franklin Street, which is kind
of like a three-lane, one-way highway.

So people will be rushing their way to
the Golden Gate Bridge or the Marina and

they look over and they see this piece of
19th-century architectural beauty just pop

up out of a row of apartment buildings.

It's on the edge of Pacific Heights,
and when it was built in the 1880s,

it was a very fashionable place for
upper-middle-class merchants and

small-scale capitalists to live.

And now, like I said, it's right off 101.

It's very much on a busy road.

So it offers its own sense of
surprise before you even go in.

Absolutely.

So I got a chance to take a tour of
the house with your colleague Carrie,

and she was telling me that before
the great earthquake and fire in

1906, which did tremendous damage to
San Francisco, this neighborhood was

almost exclusively or maybe exclusively
wealthy and upper-middle-class families.

Is that right?

That's right.

And then the earthquake
changed everything.

For sure.

All along Van Ness Avenue, where
late in the 20th century car dealers

moved in and we have a lot of
tall buildings that are condos and

senior homes and places like that.

Before that, Van Ness Avenue
was a showplace, a boulevard of

upper-middle-class houses and
some very large elaborate houses.

People like Claus Spreckels — you'll
see the name "Spreckels" all over

town — he was one of the richest men
in the United States at the time.

He had a house on Van Ness.

And so if you want to be near
that center of power, that locus

of power, you might build your
house a block over or a block up.

You may not get Van Ness Avenue,
but that's what the Haases did.

They lived essentially one block off
that row, kind of millionaire's row.

Right.

And as I understand it, after
the earthquake, there were

huge fires across the city.

Could you explain what happened
to the houses on Van Ness?

So the earthquake of April 18th kicks
off these fires, and the fires grow into

these huge maelstroms, over three days
[they] burn the core of the city and a

lot of the surrounding neighborhoods.

So the Haas family are in
their house on Franklin Street.

They see this giant fire coming towards
them, heading west, and it was only

really stopped at Van Ness Avenue
because it was such a wide boulevard.

But they saw the houses of their
work colleagues and their friends

and even their relatives get
incinerated, and the fire was only

stopped a block away from their house.

So it's a significant survivor from one
of San Francisco's most important events.

Yeah.

And can you talk about what specifically
happened to the houses on Van Ness?

When you say it was stopped at Van
Ness, what needed to happen there?

Well, it was a little of both.

Fire got to some of them, but the Army
and the National Guard also dynamited

a number of these large, impressive
houses to try to create the firebreak.

There was a lot of talk.

Only about a block and a half
down, block over and a half a

block down, houses were dynamited.

So it was maybe only just a matter of
hours before the Haas-Lilienthal house

would've maybe met a similar fate.

Yeah.

I mean, it's one of the crazy things
whenever you study any kind of

history is just the luck involved.

Who was writing stuff down, whose house
was destroyed by a natural disaster,

by an invading army or what have you.

We have an incomplete picture of the
past, but this is why organizations

like SF Heritage are so important is
because you are using this house to

tell the story of the past, to tell San
Francisco history kind of in microcosm.

When you were growing up in San Francisco,
did you know the house was there?

Did you know anything about
the Haas-Lilienthal House?

I don't think I did.

Generations of school children have gone
on field trips to the Haas-Lilienthal

House since the early '70s.

I wasn't one of them, so I kind of
missed out on that treat, but we have

had people who have kids of their own,
maybe even getting close to having

grandkids of their own who got to go
through a field trip and learn about the

past through the Haas-Lilienthal House.

Yeah.

So what was your
introduction to the house?

When did you first go there?

I was a young adult and I got interested
in history personally and I had heard

they had an archive up in the attic.

So I did a little research and
reached out and did a little

building research in the attic.

And this would've been, I don't
know, 30, 40 years ago almost now.

What was the research like?

What were you researching at the time?

Do you remember?

I was very interested in the
west side of San Francisco.

There wasn't a lot of history on the
Richmond district, Sunset district.

So that was my field of interest.

And so I wanted to see what
they had, and they did have some

material, so it was kind of fun.

So for people who haven't had a chance to
go yet to Haas-Lilienthal, I was wondering

if you could do a little mind palace,
a little woo-woo exercise with me here.

Just imagine that we are walking
through the front door of the house.

Could you describe for people
what are they going to see?

What are they going to hear?

Sure.

So before you even get to the front
door, Eric, you've got to walk up

some impressive granite steps, so it
already gives you this feeling you're

elevating from the sidewalk, that
you're going into someplace important.

And then there's these massive storm doors
that are wooden doors, pocket doors like

you might see separating two rooms in a
flat, but these are giant pocket doors.

And essentially they kept the weather
out, but they also kept away salesmen

and they signaled to the community
when the Haases were accepting callers.

And when they were closed, the family
just sort of wanted to be left alone.

So they were a nice sort of flag to
people walking up and down the street.

Once you go in there, there's a small
vestibule, which is very elegant and has

a mosaic stone floor, elevated ceiling.

And then you get to the front door, and
once you walk in the front door, there's

this amazing entry parlor, not giant,
but it's got golden oak wood all over.

It's got a staircase that
you're looking right at.

So if Mrs. Haas wanted to make an
entrance walking down those stairs,

she'd be very much like Scarlet O'Hara.

It's not the size and scale of that,
of "Gone With the Wind," but definitely

it's like an entrance staircase.

There's an amazing built-in
lamp right at the bottom of the

staircase that has multiple globes.

You have a chandelier above you and you
see portraits of Mr. and Mrs. Haas just

to the right on the wall above you.

So even today, visitors walk in,
they feel like they're walking

into the house just as it would've
been more than 100 years ago.

It feels lived in.

There's furniture there.

There's a grandfather clock brought from
Bavaria that Mr. Haas has in the corner.

There's a rug.

You just kind of feel like,
oh, they live here still.

And I'm walking into
sometime around 1910 maybe.

Now you've alluded to Mrs.
Haas entertaining guests.

Explain what that actually meant.

What did this mean in the
society at the time if Mrs.

Haas was entertaining visitors?

Why were they coming to see her
and what was she doing for them?

Well, at the time, Mr. Haas was a
very well-to-do wholesale grocer.

That was essentially his job.

So he would entertain people, for
sure, who would come have dinner.

Mrs. Haas, for her time in the era,
she would greet friends, relatives,

perhaps be doing charity work
and meeting people of that kind.

It's very set up like you imagine
in the Victorian era in that, after

you're in the hall, if you look just
to the left, there is a formal parlor.

It's like a living room, but it's
the kind of living room where the

family doesn't really use that room.

It's more for greeting guests.

And inside there you have furniture,
a fireplace, but you have this

amazing molded cornice all around
the top, very high ceilings.

And the cornice has three
different kinds of courses.

So you'll have banded laurel.

These are like reliefs,
like plaster reliefs.

You'll have little dentils, which
look like little teeth, going across.

And you have egg and dart.

These are all very classical
motifs to show that this is

a fancy room for company.

Many people who would come to see
the Haases for whatever reason

may never get past that room.

[laugh] It's a place to meet the guests.

What's nice about the house
and what I always like to

emphasize is the architectural
thoughtfulness that went into it.

So that parlor there connects via pocket
doors to two more rooms that are lined

up all on the south side of the building.

So these are the public rooms.

It's where you get the most sunlight.

They have beautiful windows.

You can look out at the
garden that's there.

The whole south side of the building
is set up for public viewing, public

admiration, public intercourse.

And then the north side are
more like the service areas.

You have staircases, you have
bedrooms tucked away that

the public wouldn't get to.

So there's a lot of architectural
thoughtfulness in this house.

Yeah.

So where you place the rooms, how you
decorated them, all of these small

decisions really mattered in terms of
the business of being a family of this

status in San Francisco at the time.

One thing I loved — and this is
from the upstairs part of the tour

that I took — is the bathrooms.

I was not expecting to be so fascinated
by the way they did the bathrooms.

Can you talk about the exposed
pipes and why are the pipes

in the bathrooms exposed?

Yeah.

Well, there's a couple of things.

In the 1880s and 1890s, like people who
are well off today, they want to show off

that they have the most technologically
advanced stuff in their house.

So one thing that you do when
you go through the house is

… Electricity was still fairly new.

People piped in gas for a lot
of their needs, but the Haases

kind of hedged their bets.

They had gas that provided a certain mood,
but they had electricity piped in too.

So you have these chandeliers
that are both gas and electric.

And then you go upstairs to the bathrooms.

It's my favorite room in the house
is the main bathroom, I got to say.

People say, "Oh, you have this beautiful
house." It's like, "Yeah, my favorite

room is the bathroom." First of
all, bathrooms change all the time.

Every new owner changes the bathroom, but
this one essentially dates from the 1890s.

And yes, you see all the exposed pipes
to show that you have this very glamorous

shower, which looks a bit like a torture
device because it has all these little

spikes where I think the water comes out.

You have very well-labeled handles, a
little shampoo reservoir that attaches

to the main taps in the shower and
says "shampoo." You have a gas jet,

which is there to heat hair-curling
devices and those sort of things.

You have a bidet, you have a dressing
table built into the bathroom.

So the whole thing is to show off: "We
have the latest, the greatest, and no

expense is being spared on this bathroom."

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's such a funny detail going to
the house and the fact that this

was an intentional choice, that it
was part of the posturing or part

of the showing off to visitors.

And visitors wouldn't see the bathroom
upstairs, but you have to kind of

show off to yourself at times too.

And the people who are working on
the house for you want to make sure

you understand that they are giving
you the latest and the greatest.

One question I've been asking a
lot of folks who work in museums

is how you want visitors to
feel when they enter the space.

And a lot of them are working in newer
purpose-built buildings where they have

a lot more control over the shape of
it and the way things are laid out.

Can you talk about, though, the feeling
that you are trying to evoke within the

constraints of having a historic house?

What do you want people to be thinking
about and feeling as they work their

way through the Haas-Lilienthal House?

We have a couple of different audiences.

That's the other thing.

It's not one audience.

So a great deal of the adult
public visitors that come are

from out of San Francisco.

They're even from other countries.

They know San Francisco's known
for its Victorian architecture

and they want to get inside one.

What we give them, which I think
they like, is not just the details

and a little bit of the history,
but they're basically seeing a house

that has never been bought or sold.

It was built for this family.

It was given to our nonprofit.

And so it's in a state that feels
very close to what it was like

when the family lived there.

And that's a little unusual because
even if you had a house you wanted

to show off architecturally,
people change it over time.

People come in, they bring their own
taste, they bring their own sense

of what the place should look like.

But this is one family that had
it the whole time and they mostly

kept it the way it was when it
was built, with some changes.

So it's a time capsule.

So people come for that.

For the kids who come through on the
field trips, I always say what we're

basically teaching them is there was
a past, because these third graders

have no sense of time, really.

And to think there was no electricity
or that they didn't have games or

computers or any of those things.

To see how kids lived life then, what
they had to do, what they wore, all

those — what they sat in, even — it's all
part of, wow, there was a time before me.

And I think that's a valuable lesson
to give a third grader because it

just opens up a whole world for them.

Do you have school groups
coming through every week?

Is that a major part of the attendance?

What's the makeup of who comes through
the Haas-Lilienthal House every week?

Every week it's usually people from the
public who come through on our tours,

which are on Wednesdays and Saturdays.

During the school year, the
teachers fight to get spots.

It's got to be the most popular field
trip in the public school system.

So those teachers have
been doing it for years.

They know it's usually Tuesdays,
Wednesdays, they come in in the morning.

So that's only during the school year.

But what we'd really like to do, and I
think this is something you're going to

find with all museums you talk to, is how
do we reach different audiences and what

is the message we want to get across?

So like I said, people come to see
a house because they want to learn

that there's history, but we have our
own nonprofit and our own mission.

Is there a way we can get
our reason for existing out

through the museum experience?

And that's something
we're still working on.

Oh, what's the answer
to the question so far?

What have you found that works in
growing the audience for your mission?

Well, getting people in the house for
different reasons because you could

do a tour and go, oh, this is nice,
but you probably wouldn't come back.

You've seen it once.

So finding ways to get people to come
for game nights or for lectures or for

concerts or for sort of immersive theater,
these are the kind of ways we can use the

house to get people out and appreciating
what we have and appreciating the past and

our work, but without having to feel like
they're being on a guided tour every time.

Right.

And one of the initiatives
you've been doing is a haunted

house, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, which is definitely
difficult to pull off, by the way.

You're working with the Gregg
Angelo Museum on the design.

What goes into turning
Haas-Lilienthal into a haunted house?

What has to happen?

How does that even work?

Well, we have a big advantage
in that people just associate

19th-century architecture with
ghosts and haunted houses.

[laugh]

It's kind of unfair, but that's just
a 20th-century prejudice, right?

So we look like a haunted house if it's
kind of dark and you put a few cobwebs up.

But for us, it's tricky
because it is a museum.

We want to protect it.

We don't want it to be damaged, but
we want people to have a good time

and people going to haunted houses
usually are a little excitable.

So we have to try to figure
out how to manage that.

And also to properly let them
have a good time but represent

that we have a serious mission and
story we're trying to tell too.

It's a balance, and I don't know if
we've figured it out yet, but we hope

people have a good time no matter what.

Yeah.

I bet.

I was talking with Laura Fies from the
USS Hornet and she turned me around

on the idea of ghost tours and themed
haunted entertainment — edutainment

— for this stuff because she was saying,
"Look, I just want people to get in

and get close to the history and learn.

Why they show up in the first
place is not important to me.

Once they're in the
building, then they're mine.

Then I can direct their attention."

That's right.

And also, some people are going to get it.

They're going to want to come back and
they're going to want to learn more.

And the people who don't, well, we
hope they had a good time and that

they at least felt like they were
somehow attached to what we do, even

if they just came to a haunted house.

And in the room that you have made up as
a children's playroom, there's some old

toys that are genuinely creepy year-round.

So if you are missing the haunts,
if you miss it this year, you can

just go to that room and be spooked.

Yeah.

People often ask us about ghosts.

Really?

And I don't think there's any ghosts.

I have not seen one.

Maybe I'm not receptive, though,
but people often think about it.

Yeah.

Have you ever worked with a TV show
or anyone like "Ghost Hunters" coming

through and trying to measure the ghosts?

We have.

I don't think they found anything.

So that's why we're not on TV.

There you go.

There you go.

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Thank you so much.

On this podcast, we believe that
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is deeply personal, and that's why
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If you've got one, and I bet
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and click "submit a museum

story" at the top of the page.

It might just make it
into a future episode.

Thanks.

Historical preservation is a really hot
topic here in San Francisco, decades

and decades of feuding over how much
should be preserved, can we knock down

some houses to build newer housing?

It's a city which has a
severe housing shortage.

Where does SF Heritage
fit into the debate?

Are you politically involved
in things like that?

Oh, all the time.

I'll preface this by saying any sort of
land use discussion has been part of San

Francisco history from its beginning.

It's a fairly small place just in size.

It's surrounded by water on three
sides, and land is extremely

valuable and always has been.

So everybody fights over every
postage stamp of San Francisco earth.

So if you're going to do anything with
land use, you're going to get caught

in a lot of discussion with people.

San Francisco Heritage has always had
the attitude, and we've always practiced

this, of there's a solution here,
that we can have … We can preserve

the special places and find ways to
accommodate what San Francisco needs to

do to adapt and grow, welcome new people.

In the '70s, it was a lot about
office space and a lot about economic

vitality of financial services and
getting those sort of things happening.

And then now it's more about housing.

It has been for the last 20 years.

But the answer is still the same,
which is there are special places

we want to make sure we don't lose.

What is the way we figure out as a society
and as a government, as local government,

to keep those places, make sure they're
economically vital and interesting, but

adaptable to whatever the needs are?

Often people try to put this into you're
either like a YIMBY or a NIMBY, right?

You're either yes in my backyard or no.

Right.

Most people actually don't
fall in those two things.

It's always "it depends" and where is it
and what's the neighborhood's priority

and what does the owner want to do?

And how historic is it?

And what part of it is
the part that's special?

Because sometimes you have a historic
building but what makes it historic

is not every square inch of it.

You can add housing sometimes.

So our job as a nonprofit is really to
try to find accommodation, try to save

these special places so they're here for
all the new people we want to live here

and the next generations, but make sure
San Francisco's a healthy economic place

and that it's a culturally vibrant place.

Right.

A few years ago I was in Greece
and all over Greece there are these

areas where you can be in what looks
like a total ordinary modern-built

store, but then a section of the
floor will be carved out and it'd be

glass instead of plaster or whatever.

And if you look down through the glass,
you'll see an archeological dig site

where basically they built this store
on top of some spot where something

of historical significance was found.

Wow.

Is that sort of compromise, is
that something that you would

entertain, that you would encourage
from SF Heritage's vantage point?

Having modern buildings but
retaining some historical elements?

Well, a lot of people who have a
lot of education and experience

have thought about all this.

And so there are enough people in the
planning department and people who

work at firms for these developers
who know how to find ways to keep

the past visible and get that feeling
for it even while buildings change.

We have a lot of examples
that are happening right now.

There is 100 McAllister, there's a
tower that was an office building,

now it's being turned into housing.

But what makes it special is its
exterior, the facade of it, the

way it looks from the street, not
necessarily what it's used for inside.

So that's the sort of decision
you make and there's ways you

can get historic tax credits and
other things to incentivize that.

But there's usually a solution.

I think what we always have to
do is … It's a case by case

basis and it's a point in time.

Like I said, we used to have to
be like, it's all about offices.

Now it's all about housing, but now
it's starting to be about offices

again a little bit with the AI boom.

Exactly.

So you can only work with
what you've got at the time.

And our job is to try to bring that
history and elevate the important places

so that we can make smart decisions.

Yeah.

I mean, everyone else is thinking
on a quarterly timescale and you're

thinking in hundreds of years.

It's pretty different.

At least 20 or 30.

[laugh] So yeah.

Yeah.

I guess the question that people have
been wrestling with for all this time,

this is not unique to SF Heritage, not
unique to you, but I think the real

question at the heart of this is, is
it that the buildings are special?

Is it that the stories that happen
inside the buildings are special?

Where do you draw the line of what
that specialness derives from?

Does that seem right to you?

Yeah, and it depends.

Some buildings, it's about the
architectural design or the

integrity of the past that's
visible in the architecture.

And other times it's a place where
something important happened.

And even then, say it's like the old
"George Washington slept here." For

the San Francisco version, there are
places like Harvey Milk's camera store.

This is an important
place in world history.

So the building, is the
building architecturally

significant as a building design?

Not necessarily, but how do you convey
that feeling of what Harvey Milk's camera

store looked like when Harvey Milk was
there and when he was making history?

And so those are the sort of
decisions, like I say, that people

in the planning department, people
who work for developers, historians,

can all come together and decide,
can you add something to this?

Yes.

What part has to stay to convey
that feeling that people come

from around the world and want to
see Harvey Milk's camera store?

So it depends on the building, and
it's not always about architecture.

It's often about history and
it's often about culture.

There are many incredibly
interesting diverse groups of people

in San Francisco from Japantown
to Chinatown to the Mission.

And some places are just special to
that culture and you try to figure

out, draw out, what makes this special?

Is it what's in there?

Is it what it looks like?

Is it the role it serves?

And that's how you make
these determinations.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So you started working at SF
Heritage in 2020, is that right?

2019.

2019. What do you wish you had known when
you first took the job that you know now?

That Covid was coming?

Well, other than that.

[laugh] That's cheating.

That did change a lot of things.

For sure.

Yeah.

But to answer your question, I guess the
housing debate or the feeling that there

is a divide between people who want more
housing and this nebulous community who

doesn't, which it's kind of hard to pin
that down, is only sort of intensified.

And it surprises me because I
started to feel like we were

reaching a plateau on that.

And it's interesting now because
of the new AI boom, we're going

back to this sort of office thing.

So I guess I feel like what I would've
liked to have known is that we have to

be ahead on talking about housing and
preservation from day one and almost

every day because it's never let up.

And what about the Haas-Lilienthal
House specifically?

Is there something that you wish you
had known about the house, either

working there or just about what needs
to happen there to keep it going?

I think for us, it's the same.

I mean, I had this question from
day one and I have it today is how

do you pull off taking what was
essentially a residence and make it

into a space that is very welcoming
to the public in all sorts of ways?

And then you try to tie in
how can you get your mission

involved in all those activities?

And I got to say, we're still
experimenting, but the nice thing is when

you have a house that's as cool as the
Haas-Lilienthal House, every experiment

is a lot of fun and teaches you something.

We talked a little bit before about
that you're trying to grow the

audience, trying to reach new people
for SF Heritage's mission and goals.

Is there anything that you want to
do with the house specifically that

you've not been able to do yet?

Is there something in terms of
either a renovation or expanding

the tour or anything like that?

Any goals you have for what you want
the house to be to people in the future?

I'm giving you my secrets.

Oh, please.

Are you okay with that?

Okay.

Don't hold me to this because these
are my dreams, but I really feel

like, like I said, people come to
the house and they do the tour and

I want to give them a reason to come
back and I want it to be open to the

community so it's used by the community.

So one thought is, we have an apartment
in the very top, in the attic.

It's not really set up to be an Airbnb.

It's a little bit more like inside,
you're kind of inside our offices,

but it is a separate apartment.

My dream is to have an
artist-in-residence program.

You live up there in the Haas
Lilienthal House for a month or two.

There's a room you can do your art if
you're a visual artist or you could

be any kind of artist, but I'd like to
use a room that right now is not part

of the tour and just include it on the
tour as sort of a rotating gallery.

And I think that would put us into a
little different category of museum, but I

think it would make us seem more relevant
every day because you can have all

sorts of very interesting artists living
there, interpreting the past or whatever

they're doing, and displaying their work
for the audiences that come through.

So I think that is something we're
exploring and I think would be

just a very cool take on what has
been a tour we've had for 40 years.

Yeah, that's a fabulous idea.

I hope you do it.

Yeah.

Got to work out some kinks, raise
some money, but I'd love to get

some great artists in there.

What's the best thing you've heard a
visitor say who comes to visit the house?

Well, a lot of people say it's the best
thing they've done in San Francisco, and

I'm always like, "What part of town have
you been in?" Because I feel like there's

a lot of things that are really better.

[laugh]

But that's really high praise.

I do feel like you were looking for
something and you found it here.

But I think the other thing I often
get, mostly from San Franciscans who

visit, is, "I never knew this was
here and I wish I'd known about it

before." So the house is very cool.

And so if you haven't been to it,
come take a tour, get a feel for it.

And if you want to interact with
us more, let's talk because we

want to do cool things with it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You mentioned earlier, you're
talking about the Haas family

and their place in society.

And Lilienthal, correct
me if I'm wrong, one of

the Haas children married a
Lilienthal and it was just another

prominent family in San Francisco.

Have you ever had anyone come to visit
the house who has history with any of

the families that have lived there or
have married into children from there?

Sometimes.

We're still in touch with descendants of
the Haas family and the Lilienthal family.

Wow.

Wow.

Are they still in San Francisco?

Some of them are still in San Francisco.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they're still attached, and every
Christmas Eve, family members come and

have Christmas dinner at the house.

And it was actually part of the agreement
in giving the house to San Francisco

Heritage that they reserve the right to
have Christmas Eve dinner at the house.

That is so wonderful.

Yeah, they're still attached.

So they tell all of you, because your
offices are in the house, so they

tell all of you, not that you want to
work on Christmas Eve anyway, but they

say, "Okay, clear out. This house is
exclusively ours for one night only."

They're much nicer than that.

They bring everything in, they
do all the work, they clean

everything up, and they're gone.

They're just like little
elves that came in the night.

But they definitely very much appreciate
being connected to their family past.

How big is the family reunion
happening on Christmas Eve?

Must be a lot of people by now.

I'm always invited and I usually
have my own thing going, but there's

probably 30 or 40 people at a time.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, they have a great time.

What's a small detail in the house
that you appreciate, most people

wouldn't notice, but that you know
is there, every time you see it?

That most people wouldn't notice?

Yeah, something small.

So not the grandfather clock in the
foyer, something that's a very minute

detail, but that is really special to you.

I don't know if it's really special,
but there's a dinner bell that is in the

… Did you see the dinner bell when you went?

Remind me, where is it?

It's kind of a small little thing.

You walk into the entry hall and at
the end of the hall before you get

into the kitchen area, there's a
little bell on the wall, and I always

forget it's there and then I remember.

It's just this little bell that they
would use to call everybody, because

the one thing about this house,
it's not a mansion, but it's big.

And so they had two different kinds
of intercom systems over the years.

And if you go into certain rooms,
you'll see a little button on the wall.

So if you go look, that's a little detail.

The first intercom system, you
pressed a button and in the kitchen

there was a box with little openings
and a flag would pop up to tell you

which room the button was pressed in.

Wow.

So Mrs. Haas could be upstairs and she's
like, "Oh, I don't know where that is."

She'd press that button in the kitchen
where there was usually somebody.

They said, "Oh, she
needs help." She'd go up.

Later they had more of an intercom system,
but that bell just kind of is like, "It's

time for dinner. Oh, you actually have
to ring a bell. This house is so big."

You don't need multiple flags.

You just need one bell.

One big bell.

It means one thing.

Yeah.

So look for all the little signaling
devices that are kind of strewn and

hidden through the house next time you go.

Do those devices still work?

Have you tried them?

I think they're disconnected,
most of them, but I'd really

like to get the flag one working,
which was called an annunciator.

Annunciator.

Yes, I guess it announced.

Annunced.

Makes me think of, in "Downton Abbey,"
where they want to ring for the servants

and so they ring the bell and you
can see the string moving downstairs.

It rings another bell downstairs.

They know which room needs attention.

Similar to that.

There's also a list of duties
that Mrs. Lilienthal, the

daughter of the Haas's, had.

And so that's mimeographed up on
the wall in the butler's pantry,

and that's kind of fun to read.

What would your job be if you
were working in this house?

So there's little details like
that that I think when you're on

the tour you miss, you have to
kind of pause and look for them.

What other museums or historic
institutions have inspired you?

What have you borrowed from in terms of
running things at Haas-Lilienthal House?

We're a house museum, which is
a certain kind of museum, and

they're usually, here's a famous
person or a painter lived here.

I'm always interested in how they decide
what they display and what they don't.

Is the fact that a person owned an end
table and they're the famous person

that we have to have the end table
there even if it's kind of ordinary,

or is the point more to learn more
about the person, not necessarily

what they put their coffee down on?

When I go to other house museums,
I'm often thinking that way because

where we could make changes and
where I think about it often is

we have some impressive furniture.

Some of it was from the family and
some of it just sort of came into the

organization's life at some point.

And so it might be time to do a
good review of what does every room

say to each person who comes in?

When I was in New York a couple years ago,
I went to the Thomas Church House — Thomas

Church was a very well-known painter and
designer — I felt they did a great job

of figuring out what every room told you.

It was something about him or
something about what he did or

something about who he knew.

You can have a house that's just like,
oh, people live here, but then it'd be

great if you could get a message through
to the people who visit in every room.

And so trying to figure out how to do that
and which rooms work best for that story,

not just the Haas-Lilienthal family or San
Francisco history, but what San Francisco

Heritage does and what our priorities are.

Right.

When your space is limited,
you want to make the most of

everything you put on display or
every room you take people into.

I remember in the kitchen you have, in
one of the cabinets, you have a bunch of

vintage foods and drinks and things like
that from when the Haases lived there.

Yeah, the coffee cans, one of the
daughters married into the MJB Coffee

Company, and so we have MJB cans,
but it talks about the big industries

that were San Francisco-based at the
time and the family at the same time.

And for the kids, yeah, it's
like this is what food came in.

This is what it looked like,
which kind of blows their minds.

We have a big ice tong.

Kids just think that
everything comes in a package.

So talking about how people prepared
food is a big thing for them.

I remember, I think it's in the
basement, the laundry room, how they

had to press clothes is shocking.

Yeah, they have a little brick stove
essentially that's coal fed with a metal

top and you would put the irons on top
of it, heat the iron, do your ironing.

When it cooled off, you'd put it
back on this hot plate essentially

and grab another hot iron to use.

It's giant and it's very impressive
and I've never seen another one.

What do people get wrong about
the Haas-Lilienthal House?

I think they feel that the
people who lived there are more

like the Downton Abbey people.

They're incredibly rich.

They are these world-straddling
capitalists or something, or royalty, and

they were really just upper-middle-class
merchants moving up in the world.

The people who we would compare them
to today may not live in a house like

that because people don't usually
open up their houses to show off

like they did back then, or just
to their friends and family maybe.

I think that there's this idea
that the Haas family was incredibly

wealthy or diplomats when they were
really just part of San Francisco's

sort of middle-class society.

Were they living within
their means for the time?

Do we know about their
financial situation?

Yeah.

They traveled, they went to Europe,
but they went to Europe once, twice.

It wasn't like they were … They
were working people.

Mr. Haas had a business and he
worked every day, and the daughter

Alice, who married Sam Lilienthal,
also worked in liquor wholesale.

So they were working people and not, I
guess, what people think of [as] these

rich people who have this outsized
influence on politics or society.

They were really working people in a
house that we today see as very grand.

Yeah.

What is an experience at a museum that
has stuck with you, the most impactful

time you've had visiting a museum?

We talked about your early visits to the
places like the de Young as a kid, but

at any point in your life, do you have a
museum story or something that moved you

or blew your mind or something like that?

I'll tell you my favorite museum.

Please.

It really has nothing to do with what
we do at the Haas-Lilenthal House.

It's not so much about history.

It's the Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain.

And so you have a guy like Salvador Dali,
this artist who is a little different than

most people, and he makes his own museum.

So it is a work of art as a museum.

I mean, it has … Talk about every room
and every corner giving you a surprise.

He didn't just have a bunch of
rooms and walls where he put up art.

Every room is a piece of art.

So you feel like you're in a
Dali painting as you walk around.

The scale shifts to gigantic women
that are the size of a house to

the smallest little details on a
sculpture that you have to really

almost pick out with a return visit.

So just the look of that museum and the
sense of surprise and enchantment that I

got from that museum has stuck with me.

It all comes back to
that feeling of surprise.

Surprise, and did I get a
feeling or did I learn something?

And it definitely, I'm still feeling it.

I get little goosebumps thinking about it.

So go to the Dali Museum
in Figueres, Spain.

I will.

I'll add that to my extremely long
list of museums I want to go to.

Last question for you, and this is the
hardest question of the whole interview.

When you find yourself in a
museum gift shop, what do you buy?

I usually buy a book.

I'm very boring that way.

I often have looked for
things that were utilitarian.

This is going to sound funny because you
think you go into a museum gift shop,

you want something beautiful or sort
of special, but I usually try to find

something like coasters because that way
the little piece of the museum and the

visit and the art I saw or whatever it was
kind of stays with me in my daily life.

So at work, I have a coaster and it's
from the Van Gogh Museum, and I've got

a little Van Gogh on a coaster, and
it feels kind of kitschy in a way, but

it also makes me feel like, oh yeah, I
was a little part of Van Gogh's life at

that museum and here it is at my desk.

I might have those exact
same coasters, just a chance.

They've held up really well.

They've held up really well.

Well, anyway, that's a great museum.

Haas-Lilienthal House is a great visit.

Woody, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

My pleasure.

Any time.

Thanks again to Woody LaBounty
for coming on the podcast.

The Haas-Lilienthal House is open
every Wednesday and Saturday.

For more info about their docent-led
tours or their Halloween experience,

check the links in the show notes.

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Our marketing specialist is Julia
Wilde, artwork by Rhe Civitello.

Special thanks this week to Kerri Young.

Thank you for listening to this episode
and I will see you at the museum.