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Grab your backstage pass as we dive into the fascinating world of entertainment law and uncover the ins and outs of Hollywood contracts with attorney Leah Stevenson! Leah takes us behind the scenes of her career representing music artists, influencers, and filmmakers.
Learn how Leah found her starring role in the competitive field of entertainment law, the importance of networking to land your big break, and why authenticity should take center stage in client relationships. She even gives us the inside scoop on the rising genre of influencer law and why young lawyers are perfectly cast to take the lead.
Whether you're dreaming of a red-carpet legal career or just curious about how lawyers make Hollywood magic happen, this episode gives you a front-row seat to the action.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (01:40) - Get to Know Leah Stevenson
- (02:57) - What Is An Entertainment Lawyer?
- (07:20) - Different Paths; Transactional Vs. Litigation
- (10:09) - Preparing To Be An Entertainment Lawyer
- (13:00) - Working In-House Vs. In A Law Firm
- (17:57) - Managing Your Clients Expectations As A Young Lawyer
- (21:51) - Strategies For Advising And Communicating With Different Clients
- (25:25) - How Entertainment Law Is Evolving
- (28:24) - Host Responses And Thoughts
Creators and Guests
What is ABA Law Student Podcast?
Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
The practice of law is a demanding one. Lawyers face grueling hours, high pressure, and many can find it isolating. Rarely does the day-to-day match the image of the career we develop from television and movies. It's no surprise that these factors can lead to a high rate of washout in the industry, but that's not because the practice of law is flawed. But because we can too easily find, we aren't adequately crafting our practice to our passions. Today we're speaking with an attorney who aggressively pursued and achieved the position she knew would match her interests and is thriving accordingly. This is the a, a law student podcast. Hey Sha. Hey Manny. How's it going?
Chay Rodriguez (00:55):
Hey, Todd. Good, how are you?
Todd Berger (00:57):
Hey Todd. It's going well. Oh, terrific. Well, it's great to see both of you again. Really excited to talk about today's topic. I have a huge number of students who say that they want to go into this field of law. It is really quite popular, and my sense of it before I started doing this was that it was really hard to get into, which I think it is, but that it was very few students actually ended up doing it. But the more and more I hear from students, people who've graduated, gone on to find different jobs, the more they're able to carve out their own kind of career path in this area of law. So I know I, I've been teasing it out, but Shay, why don't you tell us who we're going to hear from today and what you're going to talk about?
Chay Rodriguez (01:40):
I am super excited. Today we are talking about entertainment law. I am really excited to introduce our guest because believe it or not, I found her on TikTok attorney Leah Stevenson, who works at a private boutique law firm that specializes in entertainment law, and she deals with talent, so influencers, musicians, actors, and she helps them with their brand deals, their contracts with the Gs and Pandoras and things like that. And it was great to talk to her. It was really cool getting to hear from someone who is figuring it out in the space of influencer law, which is new that we'll get to a little later, but also thriving in traditional entertainment law as well.
Todd Berger (02:26):
Yeah, it's really cool that the idea that there's new and expanding areas of law. I think we hear a lot, there's a lot of people go to law school, there's too many people who go to law school, so they're all fighting over the same kind of business, and yet there's always kind of new and emerging areas of law that students can go into. But you're right, this kind of connects to something that in a broad sense might be more traditional, but a new area. So a lot of opportunities for this kind of practice. Before we get into your conversation with Leah Shey, did you find it inspirational?
Chay Rodriguez (02:57):
I found Leah's passion for her field, refreshing. Sometimes you may talk to attorneys that's kind of like it's a job, it's day to day, I'm here. But Leah sounded like I really like interacted with my clients. I really like building the relationships with them, which I think sometimes we think is more transactional, no pun intended, and a monetary base when it comes to entertainment law. But Leah really phrased it like I'm helping someone to live their dream when I'm working on these contracts with them, or I'm helping them realize the technicalities behind their dreams so that they know what they're really stepping into moving forward. And I think finding that kind of human side into it really fuels her passion. So that was inspiring and really cool to hear.
Todd Berger (03:51):
That's great. Well, it's very cool. I'm excited. You're excited to hear the interview, Manny.
Manny Fernandez (03:55):
Yeah, I certainly am. I have to say that like Shay, I found it really refreshing to hear Leah Stevenson. It's also really exciting because I don't know much about this field of law, but it really intersects with so many other fields. Did you guys, Shay, I am not sure. Did you guys either offline or otherwise get to talk a little bit about the possible TikTok ban?
Chay Rodriguez (04:19):
So we didn't talk about the band because that's still so up in the air, so not that maybe one of our future guest, Manny, we can bum rush them and kind of ask someone to think about the TikTok band, but not this one.
Manny Fernandez (04:32):
All right, fair enough. Still excited to see what you guys talked about. So let's get into it.
Chay Rodriguez (04:39):
Attorney Stevenson, can you explain to me in your own words, what is an entertainment lawyer?
Leah Stevenson (04:45):
So an entertainment lawyer is a lawyer that works literally in the entertainment industry representing clients in that industry. And you can work on both sides of the field. You can be a lawyer that represents big companies, whether that be music publishers, record labels, brands, things of that nature. Or you could be representing the talent that works in the entertainment industry, which is more of what I do. So I represent people like music artists, producers, songwriters, content creators, screenwriters, filmmakers, people that are actually the ones creating that content and perhaps working with these third party companies, these third party brands. So as an entertainment lawyer, there's also litigation and there's transactional. So if you are maybe an entertainment lawyer that does litigation, you could perhaps be representing your clients when they go to court. Maybe there's a copyright infringement case and you're representing a couple of artists that are receiving a copyright infringement lawsuit for sampling a song that they did not get the rights to.
(05:48):
But you can do transactional, which is what I do. It's a lot of contracts, a lot of documentation. For instance, I have clients that are signed to major labels, so I do album clearance for them. If they're a music artist and they're going to commercially release their album with the label, they need to make sure all third party producers, songwriters, vocal producers, any party that works on their album, you have the documentation in place that allows for those party services to be documented and for the label to commercially release that album without any problems arising. So an entertainment attorney in some literally is an attorney that represents clients in the entertainment industry, but there's so many facets to that, which is why it can be oftentimes confusing. I'll give you one other example. I know this is a little long-winded, but one person in my comment said, Hey, like an entertainment attorney, would that mean that you handle maybe an entertainment client's divorce? And that's not the case. There are other types of lawyers such as family law attorneys or any other type of attorney that may have celebrity clients that maybe their bread and butter is working in the entertainment industry, but that's still a family law attorney that would be representing those entertainment law, celebrity type clients. I would just be doing anything that is entertainment facing, whether they're working with the brand for content creation, whether they're clearing an album, engaging a producer, working with a record label. I wouldn't be handling every legal aspect of their lives.
Chay Rodriguez (07:20):
See, I love that because I've had a professor explain it in that latter way that you just explained. If you're working with someone in the entertainment space, you can call yourself an entertainment lawyer. If you do criminal law work and you have to defend an entertainer, you could be considered an entertainment lawyer because it's not about the law you're practicing, but the clientele you're serving at the time. And to me, I think you're right in that that can get a little convoluted. I want to touch on a little bit of what you touched on, the transactional attorney versus the litigation attorney.
Leah Stevenson (07:54):
Of course.
Chay Rodriguez (07:54):
So yes, on your TikTok, you said that for a good chunk of it, at least I think this is what you said traditionally for the transactional law, it's going to more so be in-house and litigation more so would be at a firm. I know that they can be in both places, but can you talk about that a little bit? First kind of break down traditional transaction attorneys and where they would be placed verse litigation attorneys and where they would be placed.
Leah Stevenson (08:24):
So to break it down, kind of like I explained in the video, it's kind of confusing, but if you're transactional like I am, there's a couple of avenues. The first avenue that you have to think about or question is who are you representing? Are you representing more talent or are you representing more big companies?
Leah Stevenson (08:41):
You
Leah Stevenson (08:41):
Could also, that's the first question. The second question is where do you work? So if I represent talent,
(08:49):
Which is what I do, I work in a law firm, so I work in a boutique law firm. I'm able to represent talent in that capacity. If I'm representing a brand or big company, I can either work at a law firm likely, like probably a bigger law firm that has those big clients like A UMG or Cobalt or a Warner, you're serving as their outside counsel, or I could work in-house at Universal Music Group or Warner or Cobalt or Paramount, things of that nature. So really the first question is who do you represent? And then the second question is, where do you work? Most of these talent individuals, they may have a company and LLC, whatever, but you're likely going to be their outside counsel and you're likely going to be working either at your own law firm or at someone else's law firm representing them. If you're representing a big brand or company, you're likely either working at a law firm representing those big brands as their outside counsel, or you literally work at that company. You work at a Spotify, you work at a Pandora, you work in an Apple music at that company, and you're dealing with all the legal issues in whatever department you're in at that company. So there's multiple avenues and it's always who do you represent and then where do you work, which is why it can be so confusing.
Chay Rodriguez (10:09):
What do you think are pertinent skills and classes that a student should focus on in law school to perfect what's needed to be a transactional attorney in the entertainment law space?
Leah Stevenson (10:21):
Absolutely. So for myself, I knew I wanted to be an entertainment lawyer as I was entering school and I chose to go back to law, they actually, that was my alma mater. They ended up getting me a full ride. Law school's expensive, all the things I knew I need to be thinking with the entertainment law mindset. Obviously your first year of law school, you're going to be taking all the same classes. You're in your sections, they're going to be giving you the classes that you need to take. But once I was able to open up to start choosing my classes, I was choosing things that were aligned with negotiating intellectual property, music, any type of skills. So I definitely took copyright because intellectual property is a heavy foundation of entertainment law. They're very closely aligned because you're dealing with copyrights, you're dealing with trademarks, you're dealing with that intellectual property.
(11:11):
So copyright law, trademark law, I took music law because I knew I particularly had an affinity and passion for music. So I'm like, okay, this can be helpful for me to understand royalties and understanding what the copyrights in a sound recording in a composition look like. All of these things tying together, another good class to take, whether that be a short course or actual course that is provided to you is a negotiations course because that's what we do as entertainment lawyers, especially transactional. I negotiate across the table from big brands, big companies all the time. But what you're seeing is not me coming to the table and sitting across the table from them like you think or you see in movies and shows. I'm negotiating against them in red lines, meaning you send me a version of the contract, I redline it more so in my client's favor, send it back to you.
(12:04):
You send it back to me. It's revised. You have comments, Ms. Stevenson or Leah, we can't agree to this. This is a non-starter. So we're negotiating. So any types of classes that can teach you the art of negotiation because negotiation is a dance you give and you take, right? And ultimately we have the same goal to finalize this deal, but who we're advocating for is going to be different. Those types of classes really help you learn how to become an entertainment attorney. But I'm a big believer that law school doesn't teach you how to be an attorney. It teaches you how to think one. So it's not going to teach you the practice. That's what your internships, your externships, your shadowing, your practical skills, that's going to prepare you to be an attorney. But all of these classes will give you that mindset and then when you're actually negotiating, you'll think back, oh my gosh, I remember what professor so-and-so told me. That's such a helpful tip. I'm going to use it right now.
Chay Rodriguez (13:00):
Although I know you said you work at a boutique law firm now, can you talk a little bit about the differences between being in-house versus being at a firm? Just because I know that for some, getting an in-house position is super coveted, but it's been communicated in a few of my classes that big companies in general, not just entertainment companies or media companies, don't really want you fresh out of law school. Can you talk a little bit about that and what your path was to get to your boutique law firm that you're at now?
Leah Stevenson (13:31):
Yes. So my path is long, but I'm from Houston originally. Went to for college, graduated in three years, like, oh Lord, it's expensive. This is so expensive here. You don't realize how expensive things truly are.
Leah Stevenson (13:45):
And
Leah Stevenson (13:45):
So where I would normally be in my last year studying for the lsat, I was in my third year realizing, oh my gosh, this really is my last year rushing to pass the lsat X, Y, and Z. Graduated had already taken the lsat, graduated, decided to take the LSAT one more time that summer, that's when my score was high enough to get a couple of more full rides. And one of them included law, which was the best school that I had gotten into with that type of scholarship. That was a major decision for me to go back to knowing they have a great entertainment and sports law program that is only growing since I've left school. But knowing that I always wanted to be in California, build my network in California, so I knew that I was going back to law and doing it that way. So I would just continue to acquire internships. So anybody that sees my resume from back in law school, I would need to get to the interview stage to explain my vision because I knew what my vision was. But to someone else, it may seem like I'm bouncing around. I'm taking internships at the R center at BBC at one of the big law firms there. I worked for Ultra during Ultra Music Festival helping in their legal department, things of that nature.
(14:52):
And the reason was I wanted to get as much entertainment law experiences as possible, and I always heard the same thing that it's very hard to go from law school to in-house.
(15:03):
And I thought that I wanted to do in-house. And the reason I even got that ultra opportunity at the end of law school was because a friend of mine who had graduated the year before from law, she went straight to working in house essentially. She worked for a law firm, but that law firm served as the counsel for Ultra. So she got me that opportunity to come. She extended a hand back and got me that opportunity to come work with them for the week, helping with the legal documentation and stuff during the actual festival. Gotcha. Okay. That's really cool. It was super cool. And then I had another friend, he graduated with me. He went straight in-house to Sony, had another friend. She went straight in-house to UMG. So it's not impossible, but I will say it's very difficult. But it does help to see what type of internships opportunities you had during law school because just as people have those summer associate positions and they get hired by the law firm, you do that summer internship, do an amazing job, they may just hire you.
(15:59):
You never know your path is not someone else's. But for me, through all of those experiences, I realized, okay, I know I definitely want to work in entertainment. We'll see how we get it. So I figured maybe a boutique law firm would be best. Thinking to myself in-house may not be it. Once I finally got an entertainment law opportunity and working at a boutique law firm and realizing, wait, I really like working with talent. My dreams of ever working at a record label or working at a brand in-house have kind of changed. I like still being able to interact with those big companies and big brands, but I have realized my passion is really helping people. Also, people that look like me, navigate the entertainment industry so complex, it's so confusing and just being that friend, but also their legal counsel that they can come to and chop it up with.
(16:52):
But also I'm your legal counsel and I am not just this stuffy attorney, which I personally would not want to hire. So it's just about advocating for people that kind of look like me or in my age group and making sure that they're navigating this industry and not getting railroaded. So that's how I realized that I didn't want to go necessarily in-house or work at a company. Again, you can still advocate and do all those amazing things from those positions, but I realized I just like working with the talent I can directly call them. That's my client. So when you work at those companies, your client is your company. It's a little bit different. You get way cooler experiences, I'm sure, and things like that. But your client is a different client and mine are the actual talent, the individual. So that's how I navigated it, kind of figured it out. But I wouldn't let anybody stop you. If you want to go straight from law school to in-house, nothing is impossible. I've seen it happen and everybody, me, it was impossible, but I had people around me going straight. So if you want it, there's going to be nothing that can stop that for
Todd Berger (17:57):
You. We'll be right back
Chay Rodriguez (18:07):
To kind of talking about working with talent. How do you manage client expectations, especially with you being that younger attorney, that attorney, that there's been so many little quips and memes that you've said even throughout this interview that I'm like, ah, this is going to resonate. But sometimes clients might be a little leery of that or they might connect with it quicker, like, oh, you're speaking my language. Good. It's not too crazy, it's not too buttoned up. You could break this down so that I can understand what my contract, what I'm signing my life away to. How do you use that skill to be able to go back and forth and communicate between both words to also help you manage your client expectations when working with talent?
Leah Stevenson (18:48):
This is a good one. So I'm a big believer, and you're not going to be for everybody. I'm not going to be for every law firm. I'm not going to be for every employer. I'm not going to be for every friend. I'm not going to be for everybody. And for me, I've always, not only did I come into entertainment law because I realized this is literally one of the only types of law that I like doing, and I want to be happy in my job
(19:10):
And being a lawyer is already hard enough. So I don't want to do a type of law that I don't enjoy. I want to be passionate about what I do, but I also knew that I wanted to keep my personality. I don't want to have to switch code switch all the time to have you guys accept me. So I am happy to be at a firm that is a smaller boutique firm that knows that I'm on social media, they support me, they push me in that way, and they support me in that way. And they know that I want to be different than maybe some of the people that have come before me. I do want to leverage social media. I do want to connect with people in that way. And that's kind of how I'm building my personal brand out. And sometimes you're not going to be for everybody. For me, because I know the clients that I want to have, I think that they appreciate, even people that I have consultations with, you do a consultation with them, maybe they don't convert to a client. They'll say to me, oh my God, you broke it down in such good layman's terms. Or the way that we're talking is so friendly that I don't feel like you're talking appy, you're talking to me.
Leah Stevenson (20:12):
I
Leah Stevenson (20:12):
Also feel like I can connect with you. I can resonate with you. I can relate to you're, you're relatable. So now it makes more sense. And also you could get on the phone with me and I'm not going to be like stark time billing hour right now. I'm not going to be that type of attorney. I want you to feel comfortable to run to me because that's how we prevent problems. I think that for myself, I've noticed people where I'm getting clients from, whether that's social media, they'll fill it out in the contact form, social media referral, whatever. Even if they don't convert to a client, they go, Leah, I'll keep you in mind because I really like you. I've realized there's a lot of lawyers out here. There's a lot of entertainment lawyers, there's a lot of different type of lawyers. People are willing to pay for a service, but it's not about most lawyers, they're going to be giving you that quality
Leah Stevenson (20:58):
Work.
Leah Stevenson (20:59):
It's about do I like you to pay you that amount of money? So if I feel like I can't run to my lawyer because he's billing me or she's billing me when the time starts and I feel like she's really just only about the business, she doesn't even like me, she's not relatable or he doesn't like me, whatever, it wouldn't, even if I'm putting myself in those shoes, I don't want to pay for that service. I don't even relate to you. And lawyers are expensive. So for me, I think that relatability, I go to my clients' concerts, I go to their events, I hang out with them at dinner. I'm able to relate to you. We could chop it up about what shows we're watching, what music we're listening to. I listen to your music, I support your goals. And maybe that's because I'm in your age group and maybe a little bit more difficult if I was decades older than you, but that relatability, I think it's working. I'm going to stick to it.
Chay Rodriguez (21:51):
I think that's a good idea. And on that same vein of the relatability, how do you craft your strategy on how to advise clients, especially because everyone that you're working with is different. So you mentioned having this affinity for music, but I also know that you work with influencers. So as you're working with these different personalities and in this different industry, do you have a template on how you meet with clients and then advise them on what to take or what to shy away from or what to come back to later? And does that differ between the different client types you have?
Leah Stevenson (22:23):
I think it differs. Everyone's different. I don't really have a templated response, but I kind of start to feel out people's risk management. I'm going to always give you the real, real. I'm going to give you the liabilities. If you want to heed my advice,
(22:38):
That is I can't force it on you, but I can give you the guidance, right? And so as you learn each person's risk management or whatever, you still advise them. But I think I talk to my clients all the same, which is how I'm talking to you right now, which is that related validity factor. But then there's clients, other clients that I'm really close to. I had clients at my birthday party. So there's clients where it's like you almost start to feel like friends, especially with the music artists. I talk to their managers sometimes daily. So we'll become very cool and very close and we could talk about other things. So I think I talk to everyone the same in terms of depending on what they're working on or what I'm advising them about, I'll always give them the full risks and liabilities, what your risk management and how you want to implement the guidance I've given you what steps you want to take or hey, you said you want to copyright this, you want to trademark this, you want to get your LLC, what order do you want to do it in? What's your priority? I'm going to tell you what I think based on where you're going and your future goals, but then what you want to do with that information. I'm never going to force it on you and be like, you need to pay this amount today or X, Y, and Z is going to happen. I'm going to give you the advice. I'm going to let you sleep on it. I'm never going to get you fearmongering. I'm never going to be hungry for your money. I'm just trying to give you
Leah Stevenson (23:56):
Counsel
Leah Stevenson (23:57):
And when you're ready to proceed, we can go from there. But I think interacting with my clients, I try to interact with them all in the same tone and effort as I would interact with my family, my friends, and I try to keep that same energy. There's obviously going to be some clients where I'm going to have to tailor it a little bit and be a little bit more less friendly, not friendly in the sense of I'm being mean, but less chatty in the sense of I'm going to keep it more so very professional, professional, very professional, always professional. But with that relatability can come that relaxed
(24:33):
Feel to the conversation and you feel like you're talking to your friend. And some clients I've noticed do not want that. Maybe they're a little bit older, maybe they're in a different, just different space. They don't want me to feel like their sister, their friend, their cousin, they want me to feel like their lawyer. So we will never chop it up about what you did over the weekend to break the ice. We're never going to talk about that. We're going to talk about what you need today. Have a great day, sir. All those things versus the other clients work. Okay, let's get back to what we were talking about. So I tailor it to how you talk to me and how you relate to me and what you open up about. I'm going to tailor my conversation. I'll always be friendly, always be professional, but is it going to be as chatty as how you and I are talking right now? Name, probably not. Gotcha.
Chay Rodriguez (25:25):
Are influencer lawyers different from traditional entertainment lawyers? And do you kind of think that baby lawyers now have with a different form of entertainment law that they can learn as it's starting up?
Leah Stevenson (25:39):
Absolutely. Not only does it allow them to have a different form of a different in, we have as people that consume content, the older generation, they're kind of getting in their social media bag, whether they're watching it or creating social media, but it's harder for them because they didn't grow up with TikTok and IG and all these things. Even for myself, it was like finally got into my TikTok bag and it's like I feel like an old grandma. Oh, finally star dog TikTok. And it's like, y'all were on there in 2020. So
(26:08):
I think we have it because we consume the content, we understand what influencers do. We understand brand partnerships. We understand you could get paid from the platform from brand partnerships and from other different ways, commission on TikTok shops, stuff like that. So I think it provides an end and an end where you already are kind of knowledgeable about the subject matter. You're already knowledgeable about what streamers do. Maybe you watch mafia on with Kai, you understand the industry. So whereas someone who doesn't understand the industry they're trying to break into it maybe a lawyer that's more experienced, you understand it because you consume content and then it opens you up to so many more clients because there's content creators that are popping up every day. Music artists that are popping up every day by virtue of these apps, their music is going viral and then they're becoming music artists that are potentially going to get signed overnight.
(27:00):
So it's opening us up into this new type of market. And that goes into also how people are becoming not famous overnight, because I would not say success is overnight. It's preparation meets opportunity. And where one person may say they made it overnight, but we weren't following them before. We don't know what type of energy they were putting in before, but this platform that they gained allowed them to skyrocket and move forward with some of the goals that they probably already had planned for themselves. So it's about the ability for a platform like a TV show, a platform like you starting your own TikTok, your own YouTube, whatever, to allow you to become that type of person where you are monetizing on your personal brand and you are creating content. But then for the lawyers that are coming into the game, they understand how these people are even making money.
(27:51):
So once they learn that copyright law, that trademark law, that corporate law where they can form the LLCs, they can register your copyrights, they can register your trademark, they can help you with your influencer agreements with these big brands and companies you're in because you understand the market. And not only that, these content creators, influencers, some of them want lawyers that are a little bit more experienced, or maybe they don't want to speak to their lawyer all the time. They don't want that relatable attorney, but some of them do like having that relatable attorney. So this is a way an entryway for young lawyers. For sure.
Chay Rodriguez (28:24):
Thank you so much, Leah, for sitting down with the A lawsuit and podcast. I had the most fun speaking with you. I hope you had fun too, sharing your knowledge with us. And I cannot wait to join your profession in a few months once I pass the bar.
Leah Stevenson (28:38):
Yes. I cannot wait until you pass the bar. Wishing you the best of luck. Thank you guys so much for having me on this podcast, and we'll definitely be connecting offline because I can't wait to have you in the industry.
Chay Rodriguez (28:48):
Yes, yes. Thank you so much.
Todd Berger (28:50):
We'll be right back after this, Shay. Awesome conversation. Learned a tremendous amount. We always try and do for our listeners, what are your kind of big takeaways from that interview?
Chay Rodriguez (29:08):
My big takeaway voice is cracking there. My big takeaway is intern, intern, intern along with it's not what it's who, which I know we've all kind of heard that saying before. And then I guess the last thing I would say would be that the law is constantly evolving and making a space for you. And Manny, I feel like your last episode talked about that, right? With the evolution of law. Did you kind of get that too a little bit?
Manny Fernandez (29:34):
Yeah, I certainly did get that sense. So I discussed with Professor Daniel Pi in the last interview. There's so many new developing areas of the law and it just creates more space. Like Todd said, more space for new attorneys and people who are coming into this profession. I have one classmate who is going into data privacy and internet law. And one interesting take that she had was, and this really echoes to your conversation Shay, was that so many people have no idea what internet law is and what data privacy is in the traditional sense. It's not like you really have to be credentialed, you don't have to have a degree in data privacy or anything like that. But a lot of these firms that are hiring are hiring young people because at the very least what a server is and what a data breach is and things like that.
(30:30):
And so this creates a new space for a lot of young attorneys like you mentioned in your conversation with Attorney Stevenson. We consume these kinds of mediums and where we're in this space, so we kind of understand what's going on a little bit better. And especially I think in entertainment law, that goes a very long way because it's kind of also people who go into sports law, which is a facet of entertainment law. It shows your commitment to the industry when you're very knowledgeable about sports, when it shows your commitment to your clients. And so I think it really goes a long way. And I think, yeah, these are new fields for young attorneys, which makes it super exciting and it really makes me happy to know that we're getting into something where there's a space for people of our generation.
Chay Rodriguez (31:18):
It just gives this overall blanket of comfort like, huh, I might have a job after all this.
Manny Fernandez (31:23):
Yeah, absolutely. I also wanted to mention, I felt like this interview was almost like a masterclass into the breakdown of what the legal profession is. The way that I see it, it's almost like there's different buckets, and this is our profession is very layered. There's the industry that you work in, the entertainment industry, the sports industry, the energy industry, whatever, but that's necessarily distinct from your practice area. You can practice in family law, you can practice in criminal law, copyrights, trademarks, estate planning, and that's also necessarily distinct from the mode of practice. You can do litigation, you can do advisory work, you can do transactional work, and that there's also the overarching metric of your employer, who your employer is, firm, the government, et cetera. And so these are all different facets of the legal profession. And your conversation with Leah Stevenson really brought that out. I think it was really cool, and it's especially important I think for young people to know that you could be an entertainment law attorney and work in the entertainment law industry, but you can do litigation or you can do transactional work and you can do it purely in the practice area of copyright law or in some other practice area.
(32:46):
These are different things to think about as you're starting to think about what kind of attorney you want to be.
Chay Rodriguez (32:54):
Also balancing your professionalism. You might be able to work with just talent. So if we take it out of purely entertainment and look at it in the sports realm, say you're working with just talent in the NIL realm, you might be able to speak to them differently, use different types of slang and reference TikTok and things when you're talking to them to explain a legal concept to them. But if you're working for the team or the school that they play for, it might need to be a little bit more buttoned up because you might be talking with donors, you might be talking with deans. So I think that Leah's conversation also talked about the balance in professionalism, relatability, the importance of that and the importance of being professional across the board, of course, always, but being able to have a little bit of freedom depending on your client base and your audience.
Manny Fernandez (33:45):
It was very cool to see that Leah was not just knowledgeable, but also very personable and that it, it's almost like this is her personality, but it's an asset really to her career as well. It's not anything that's deterring her. It's quite the opposite. Making her an amazing attorney.
Chay Rodriguez (34:02):
Yes, she definitely highlighted, always read the room, that kind of concept of reading the room. Not everybody wants to talk about Beyonce performing at Christmas. Sometimes you're going to have to get right into the contract negotiation, not everyone. Also, I think to that kind of point, Manny, were talking about different industries in terms of social media being an industry. Not everyone really knows a lot about streamers. You can know a lot about TikTok and Instagram and things like that, but when it comes to discord or things like that, you're like, wait, streamers. I don't know. I think that was really cool to hear, just the different kind of industry dropping and name dropping that she did in terms of where you could go with this career.
Manny Fernandez (34:45):
Yeah. What do you mean nobody? What do you mean? Everybody doesn't always want to talk about Beyonce? Crazy. Thank you, man. Well, I think it also hearkens back to what I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, which TikTok might get banned, who knows? But at one point, vine was a huge thing and a lot of people's careers came out of Vine, and one could say that the need was always there, and TikTok came and occupied the same space that Vine used to occupy. So another thing to note is that even though this is an industry that's shifting and changing a lot's, it's always going to be there. So there is a sense of job security even in this new emerging field. So that was another cool thing that I took out of the conversation also.
Chay Rodriguez (35:33):
Yes, and if you're working on the talent side, a lot of the talent from Vine has been able to switch over and move over. So if you're working on the influencer side and maybe not the side of the bite dance that owns TikTok or whatever the case, you can still have a job. So it's not something to think like, oh, this is fleeting. And think of the company itself as something that can go away because the talent can keep going and their content that you might help to license can also keep going.
Todd Berger (35:59):
I think from my perspective, what I really appreciated about the interview, she is that you have someone who went into entertainment law. I think I hear from students all the time, they want to go into entertainment law. I remember we had a former director of our career services office who would talk about how students would tell 'em all the time they wanted to go into entertainment law. And the real question was like, well, how many jobs are there in that field? And I actually know a lot of students that I've worked with who've managed to do it. So I think that what you said and your main takeaway from it, just from a faculty perspective working with students, that completely resonates, as you said, what intern, intern, intern or another version of it, Exter, Exter and extern. But all of it is essentially about hustling and going out there.
(36:45):
And I mean, there are stories, people who start in the mail room and then they end up kind of running the company. And so this is not the kind of field like being a prosecutor or public defender where you're going to go to an office and they're going to hire 20 people in that office at the same time. This is the kind of thing that you really have to seek out those opportunities and you got to hustle and you got to work. But I think that if you're willing to do that, far more students end up achieving their dream of working in the entertainment industry, like Manny said, either entertainment law or sports, which I think is a really good point. It's kind of a subset. My students debate how closely related sports law and entertainment law are to each other, but they related. And students can find careers in those fields.
(37:28):
So if you're out there and you're listening and this is something you think about doing, as long as you're willing to hustle, get your internship, get your externship, it's a hundred percent attainable. The other thing that I kind of took out of it, we touched on it, but I wanted to follow up and ask you this question, Shay. So we were talking about how there's these new and emerging areas of law. So I have a friend who got into one of those new and emerging areas of law, maybe about 15 years ago. It was cannabis law,
(37:55):
And this was right when large scale legalization efforts emerged and other people didn't want to do it. And then he got into it and he found kind of a niche for himself. And then I remember talking to him about it and he said, this isn't what you're thinking. We don't want to listen to Grateful Dead and smoking weed all day. This is just basically a product people sell, and it's not that different than any other product. So I spend most of my day dealing with zoning regulations, and I spend most of my day fighting with administrative agencies, and that's been most of my doing contract work. And I can assure you it's like a burgeoning area of law, but I'm using the same skills that every lawyer uses in sort this non, I guess what you might think of as super fun context that you might otherwise associate with cannabis law. I wonder how much, when we think about entertainment law, I'm going to go into entertainment law, how many students think like, oh, I'm going to go entertainment law and I'm going to get to be a part of the entertainment industry. And how much of it is just kind of like, no, it's just you practicing contract law in a specific context that actually the more you kind of do it, the more it's just practicing contract law in any other context. To be fair, I think
Chay Rodriguez (39:07):
It's, oh, sorry. I was going to say go ahead. Go ahead, Minnie. But okay. I do have a retort for Todd, but go ahead, Minnie.
Manny Fernandez (39:13):
Sorry. No, I was just going to make a quick point that to be fair, I don't think a lot of people go to law school thinking that they're going to get to listen to the Grateful Dead and smoke cannabis all day. So I think it kind of, you kind
Todd Berger (39:27):
Of, no, no, not that people go to law school and think that Manny, but the people who maybe initially were thinking, oh, or at least maybe even today think you practice cannabis law, they might think it has more to do with cannabis than it actually does. That's what true. It's more to do with zoning and contracts than it does smoking weed. That's my, so
Chay Rodriguez (39:45):
I think the difference between these types would be it literally is what you make it. So Leah talked about adding the elements of her clients as friends, her clients were at her birthday party, and you get to go to these events, especially if you are not so much on a talent side, but you work, you get these different perks, you get to go to premieres, you get to see different. So you can kind of use that to almost, I guess, ingratiate yourself into the entertainment world depending on how you move. And I think that's all, again, with the strategy and networking and even with influencers going to these different things like beautycon and things like that, to see these panels, see these influencers, and then be able to say, Hey, my name is so-and-so, and maybe not sell it to them that you're an attorney, but make the connection at these events to be able to get your name and face in front of them in case they should ever need you.
(40:42):
But with cannabis law, you can't read the contract while smoking the joint. At the same time, it has to be a line of separation between the product and what you do. So that's how I think it might be a little bit different. And then also, I think you're absolutely right. There's some people that's just like, I just love contracts and this is where I can do it at this super high level, so I don't need to go to the parties. I don't need to go to the premieres. I don't need to do these other things that some people might be doing to spread their reach. I can't imagine a Leon Rose did not go to a party or two as an agent practicing in order to get where he is now. Todd, I know he was there. I know he weekend chopping it up. I'm just saying. So yeah, so I think that might be a little bit of the difference.
Todd Berger (41:29):
And I guess in that sense, it's like, look, lawyers network, they go places where they think clients are, right? So that makes a lot of sense in that sense. It's unique. You're like, oh, I was at a party and so is there. That's kind of cool. Most lawyers don't get those experiences, but at the same time, I feel like if you go, and you've talked about this before Shake, because you say in your past you'd interview rappers, right? And you would say there's a part of interviewing rappers where if you're awestruck, it's sort of like amateur hour. So if you're a lawyer and you go and you go to one of these things and you're acting like a lawyer, you're looking for business, it's kind of cool. Maybe you keep that to yourself. I'm around these people, this is really cool, but you're there and people are going to take you seriously as a lawyer. People are going to want to see that you're not fanboy or fangirl, right? You're there as a professional. And then in that sense, it's not that different than being a lawyer in any other professional context.
Manny Fernandez (42:26):
Yeah, I think it's worth saying that networking gets rewarded in all professions, but specifically in this profession, networking is really important. And it seems from Chase's conversation that networking is doubly important in the entertainment industry. So it's probably just, it's a good muscle to exercise, I guess, your ability to network and connect with people. At the end of the day, this is a people profession, I guess. So as much as we might forget that sometimes, just thinking about contracts and all the rest,
Chay Rodriguez (42:58):
But even with if you're going to hang your own shingle, a lot of the times, a lot of this is you eat what you kill. So not just in the entertainment kind of arena. So I think this is just valuable for a lot of us to remember. It might not be at a beauty or at a Comic-Con or Complex con, but it could be at your local Bar association or things like that. You do have to network. You do have to connect with people, and you do have to tell them who you are for them to know that you exist so that you can get more work.
Todd Berger (43:34):
Once again, thanks to attorney Leah Stevenson. We want to hear more from you on this subject, so share your thoughts with us on the a lawsuit division, socials, or through a review on Apple. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the A Law Student division website and become a member. And before we go, we'd like to thank our production partners at Marine Media and thank the a, a law student division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.