The Meat Mafia Podcast

Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac., is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Functional Medicine, and integrative health. He is the founder of the Kresser Institute, which provides training for the next generation of Functional Medicine practitioners. Chris is also the New York Times bestselling author of The Paleo Cure and Unconventional Medicine. With his extensive background in research, clinical practice, and patient education, Chris has become a powerful advocate for a more holistic, proactive, and patient-centered approach to healthcare.

Key topics discussed:

- Blockchain's potential to decentralize healthcare and empower patients
- Challenges in healthcare reform due to misaligned incentives and vested interests
- Innovative models aligning incentives and outcomes (Aura Health, CrowdHealth)
- Benefits and limitations of wearables and CGMs for health tracking
- Chris Kresser's journey from clinician to supplement creator and educator
- Formulating evidence-based supplements to address health concerns and market gaps

Timestamps:

(00:00) Revolutionizing Existing Systems
(14:45) Hope and Practicality in Health Tech
(22:28) Expanding Impact Through Formulating Supplements


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Creators & Guests

Host
Brett Ender 🥩⚡️
The food system is corrupt and trying to poison us... I will teach you how to fight back. Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod 🥩
Host
Harry Gray 🥩⚡️
Leading the Red Meat Renaissance 🥩 ⚡️| Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod

What is The Meat Mafia Podcast?

The Meat Mafia Podcast is hosted by @MeatMafiaBrett and @MeatMafiaHarry with the mission of addressing fundamental problems in our food and healthcare system. Our concerns with our healthcare system can be drawn back to issues in our food system as far back as soil health. Our principles are simple: eat real foods, buy locally, and cook your own meals.

When you listen to our podcast, you will hear stories and conversations from people working on the fringes of the food and healthcare system to address the major crises overshadowing modern society: how do we become healthy again?

themeatmafiapodcast.substack.com

Part 2

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[00:00:00] uh, it's uncomfortable saying this but like

There's so much to pull back on the system that is making people unhealthy that

I wonder sometimes. Is there such thing as reforming the existing system or do we just need to completely rebuild it? It's a really good question and It's one that I grapple with a lot

​

You bring up a really interesting point. We've touched on a little bit on the show before, but just this idea of centralization and decentralization as it relates to effectively every system that we have in place, whether it's schooling or the healthcare system or the farming industry, there's just, uh, there's tides of centralization.

And then it seems like. We have the potential to build a more peer to peer way of doing things. Like we had, um, we we've had some people in the Bitcoin space who talk a lot about just like peer to peer networks that you're able to transact directly [00:01:00] with people without having to, um, have any sort of advertisers coming in between or banks in between you and the, the, uh, other party.

And it's fascinating to think about what could happen if. You know, we do create an economy where there is more peer to peer support. Like there's podcasts platforms that are now enabling podcasters to get directly compensated by their audiences. And I think that's a fantastic model where. You know, people don't have to listen to ads.

They can just, they're, you know, paying and supporting their favorite podcasts through just streaming it through this platform. And yeah, it's fascinating to see what could happen if enough people just get fed up. I think it's just like, that's kind of the break. It's like, if enough people, if enough people hit a breaking point and start thinking in this way.

Um, maybe there is some hope to, you know, these systems, um, that right now [00:02:00] seem pretty small and not, not really widely used, but, you know, I, I do like hold out some hope there and think that there's really, there's an opportunity for this whole part of the, the world. That's like, I feel like we're kind of like a small, like on a small island screaming like, Hey, but we need to make some big radical changes here.

And the powers that be really have a system. Where it's really hard to make change happen. Absolutely. We have to try. I mean, that's, that's what it all comes down to. Whether or not it works, we don't, we don't individually have control over that, but I think we have to try. I'm a big believer in blockchain technology as a potential route forward.

I invest in blockchain. It's something I spend a lot of time understanding. I've, you know, been on the board of companies, blockchain companies in the health space. And as a, you know, there's a way of people owning their individual health data and having control over it and being able to share it easily with [00:03:00] other healthcare practitioners instead of it being behind some kind of black box ERP or, um, Uh, electronic medical record, EMR, EHR type of system that none of which communicate with each other and stuff can, you know, it's, it's, there's so many applications for that technology that all fall under that umbrella of what you were saying of just more autonomy and, and control of your own information and data and.

And sovereignty, essentially, you know, like being being able to make decisions about your own health and your own health care about your finances about how you consume information, what kind of information you want to consume, how you share information. That's those are democratic ideals, really. And what's kind of shocking to me is how far we've gotten away from that.

And the mainstream political narrative where those [00:04:00] ideas are seen as somehow like fringe or radical, whereas I'm pretty sure that the founding fathers would be huge fans of the potential of blockchain and what it, what it could mean in terms of protecting individual rights and sovereignty. Yeah, we, we really normalized things that haven't been normalized.

I remember, you know, first learning about regenerative agriculture and moving to Texas from New York city and just being so accustomed to buying meat from the grocery store, unaware of the fact that like that meat could have had 25 to potentially 50 touch points from, you know, the, from the feedlot in Brazil to the time and hit my plate in the U S which is crazy to think about.

And there's this amazing renaissance and convergence that's happening between the Bitcoin community in particular and the carnivore ranching space. And there's all these Bitcoiners that have kind of used Bitcoin as their gateway to get into nutrition. I think that's partially driven from the fact that these people are, they're really, they're really free thinkers and they've kind of done the research to understand that the U.

S. monetary system is broken. [00:05:00] And a lot of those same principles actually apply to our food system as well. And, um, you know, safe Dean wrote the Bitcoin standard. He's been carnivore for 10 years, but you actually see a lot of Bitcoiners in Austin that will seek out a rancher directly with zero touch points, buy a quarter half whole beef and just choose to pay them in Bitcoin.

And it's like a completely decentralized, beautiful transaction where you have a first name relationship with your rancher. They know you, they want to take care of you. Um, and it seems like that's really what should be normalized, not just namelessly picking up a piece of meat at the grocery store where you have no idea, you know, who, where it comes from or who, who raised the meat to begin with.

So it's, you know, just something that we've been seeing in Austin and it's really cool to see. Fantastic. Yeah. I, I do see a lot of positive signs there. Um, and I think particularly younger generations are just more, um, open to this and think that it just makes sense to them kind of inherently that that's the way things should work.

So, [00:06:00] um, you know, I, I, on the flip side, you know, they're, as you both know, there's some very powerful vested interests that are not, you know, particularly keen on the idea of decentralization and, and, and, and this, um, you know, the power moving out of these centralized authority, uh, in the hands of central authorities into, you know, people like you and me, just average folks.

So, um, yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think there are lots of applications for the health space for sure. Yeah. This, um, this schism that seems like. Has occurred where, you know, there's, there's a cohort of people that's just really trying to approach this problem. Um, you know, you said it earlier, this, uh, systematic systemic problem, um, from the first principle standpoint, where it's [00:07:00] like, there's so much to pull back on all, on the system that is making people unhealthy that, you know, we almost need to take a whole new fresh look at.

Reconstructing it. It's like almost beyond just like trying to put band aids on it. Um, you know, when you have 60 percent of people eating ultra, um, ultra processed foods and 7 out of 10 people having chronic disease, where does that lead us to if we continue on this track? I think if you ask yourself that question.

You get some pretty grim outlook. So to me, it's like, there's a cohort of society. That's maybe, uh, and like, uh, it's uncomfortable saying this, but like a little bit stuck in that current way of thinking, but then there's this other branch that is trying to like completely re imagine what society could look like.

And I almost, I wonder sometimes. Is there such thing as reforming the existing system or do we [00:08:00] just need to completely rebuild it? It's a really good question and It's one that I grapple with a lot at least in terms of the health care system when I wrote my second book because that was a call for change and um Again, the honest answer is I don't know.

I go back and forth, um, on, on what is possible. Um, there are days where I think, um, man, this thing is just so messed up that there's. You know, you see all the different ways that the, that the special interests and conflicts of interest and misaligned incentives combined together to, it almost looks like it was designed from the ground up to not work, you know, like to, to create.

Was it Charlie Munger? He said, uh, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome, right? So it's like, if you have a whole bunch of misaligned incentives in the [00:09:00] system, like our healthcare system, where, like, there's, there's no, you know, there's an incentive for clinicians to order expensive tests because That's, you know, if they make additional money when they do that, well, guess what's going to happen.

You know, there's going to, there's going to be a lot of unnecessary testing that's done that adds a lot of expense to the healthcare system. If you give drug companies, the incentive and ability to sell drugs for as much as they want. Money as they want. What do you think is going to happen? You're going to have situations where an individual cost the health care system 2.

5 million over a period of six years because they prescribed the most expensive possible drug that they could prescribe in that situation. And so there, there's so many misaligned incentives that the only way to change the system in, in such a way that it could be preserved would be to completely change the incentives.

But then at that point, is [00:10:00] it even the same system? Yeah. Yeah. So, so that I, uh, we're kind of splitting hairs maybe at that point in terms of terminology, whether it's the same system by name. It's a completely different system in the way that it works at that point Yeah, it's a it's a great. I mean i'll give you an example of a positive example, right?

So there are companies in health and others have you guys heard of appetated payments or uh, so in the healthcare system This sounds kind of weird when you think about it this way, but like there's no incentive And generally for doctors to perform well on an individual basis or collectively. So, I mean, which is just weird, right?

Like if you were, if you work, go and work for a company or you work as part of a division in a company, there are like performance metrics that you have to meet. And [00:11:00] there, you know, if there's a particular division of a company that's not doing well or pulling its own weight, it'll probably be, you know, killed or reassigned or something else.

But, like, in, in medicine, if, if, they're, they're, that has been lacking, uh, until recently. And so there's been some companies like Aura Health, who said, look, if we, you give us a bunch of patients with prediabetes, and we will do our best to, Reverse that can, you know, reverse them to, to, to being a norm, not having pre diabetes.

And if we do that, we know we're going to save the healthcare system 14, 000 a year per patient. Because once a patient has diabetes, that's how much it costs. And that could go on for decades, right? So they say to an insurance company, if we meet that goal, you pay us this [00:12:00] much. If we don't meet that goal, you don't pay us at all, or you pay us, you know, a lot less or whatever it is, if we actually exceed that goal, meaning like we take these people with full fledged type two by diabetes back to prediabetes or even from prediabetes back to being like super great lab work and, and super healthy, you pay us more.

Right. So that's, that's how this all of a sudden there's total, totally different model of care there. It's like, everyone's working towards the same goal. Like we don't want people to have diabetes and that the doctors are going to be rewarded better more. If, if they. If they're more successful in reversing that condition, the patients are going to be better off.

The insurance company is going to have to spend a lot less money over time. There'll be more profitable. I mean, that just makes sense, right? It's just like, when I explain it to people, they're usually like, well, Why does, why isn't the whole system just work that way? [00:13:00] Um, so I think there it's possible.

It's not like there's no path for it or no way that it could work. But what you have to understand is in that model, there are a lot of people that are cut out that are currently making a boatload of money that will no longer make money, and that's where the difficulty arises, right? Yeah. I mean, how much more likely would it.

Would an endocrinologist be likely to prescribe a patient a low carbohydrate diet if they know that there's actually a chance to get paid by the insurance company? Probably a lot higher than if they're not, right? That's right, exactly. That's encouraging. Um, Chris, have you heard of this company called CrowdHealth before?

No, I don't think so. You would actually probably love their founder, uh, Andy Schoonover. He's been on the podcast twice. They're, they're based in Austin, they're a venture backed company, and it's a crowdfunded alternative to healthcare insurance. So they have about 7, 8, 000 members, a lot big in the keto carnivore [00:14:00] movement, a lot of Bitcoiners, a lot of Libertarians, and I think it's a, you pay 99 to become a member, and so if I break my arm, you guys will both get hit with a notification, and you opt in a very small amount, and the entire community covers it.

And so that way, it's like for people that are really healthy that still want some additional protection if they're uninsured, they really get that. A lot of the members actually know each other, so like, if I know Chris and something happens to you, I'm obviously way more likely to contribute and be a good member of the community.

So between CrowdHealth and AgoraHealth, I think that should give a lot of people hope that they're all, there are these disruptive alternatives that are coming out that really are aligning incentives the right way too, and it's encouraging to see. Yeah, absolutely. So there's, there's a lot. I have faith in people in general.

I have less faith in systems and bureaucracies, but I do have faith in people and

and I have potential for really good changes. Come, you know, and I also at the same time have an [00:15:00] appreciation, appreciation, meaning recognition, not love, but appreciation for the, the depth of the entrenched. Interests, you know, find and who are very much in favor of maintaining the status quo. So it's, um, it's kind of a simultaneous feeling of hope and excitement about the potential and an understanding of like, Okay, we got to, we got work to do, you know, we got to roll up our sleeves and stick, stick with this because there's, there are a lot, there are a lot of vested interests who don't want this to change in the way that we want it to change.

Totally. I think for me, just being, having a sober assessment like that is something that came to me over many years of trying to make change in this area. Um, and actively working toward that on, you know, both as an entrepreneur, as someone who started training company to train, you know, train functional medicine doctors and health coach training program.

And Someone who's [00:16:00] been active in the space in so many different ways, like being being clear eyed about it, I think, is really important because it always takes longer than we think it will. We hope it will. And if you don't go into it with realistic expectations, you can really quickly get burned out.

Totally. I really like how practical you think about the, the issues, the complexities, um, and also sprinkling in some hope there, where it's like, this is a multi generational issue that got that got us here. So, it's going to probably take us multiple generations to reverse course, but I really like how you think about it.

Practically. I'm wondering to Chris. How do you think about things like blood, blood work and, um, Continuous glucose monitors, these technologies that kind of put the power back in the individual's hand to start making some changes. Are you, um, are you interested in those types of [00:17:00] technologies? And do you promote those in any way?

Yes, I am with caveats. Um, I think, um, when they're used appropriately and, uh, when you have someone, you know, whether it's yourself or, or. Uh, a clinician that can can help you make sense of the data, um, they can be really useful. Um, typically I've found that the utility declines over time. So, uh, you might, you know, somebody might wear a cgm continuous glucose monitor And learn a lot over the first couple of weeks, like, Oh, look at that.

I had a glass of wine that totally spiked my blood sugar, or, you know, I, I, I had, I ate some, some, some plantains and wow. That that those just really skyrocketed my blood sugar, but, Oh, but sweet potato doesn't do that. Okay. Now I know that. And if you, you [00:18:00] know, But after you've done that for a couple of weeks, the incremental value of continuing to wear one tends to decrease over time and that's, there's nothing wrong with that.

I mean, there's no, there's no, um, you know, that doesn't make it less valuable necessarily in my mind, because once you've gained those insights, then you can use them for the rest of your life. And, and of course things do change, you know, like as you, address underlying health conditions, your blood sugar regulation might get better, so you might find that if you were to continue wearing it or put it back on six months later, maybe you don't have that huge spike when you have after you've eaten plantains, you know what I mean?

So there's still value in coming back to it. But, um, Yeah, I think it can be really helpful in certain situations. Like we used to do programs with, um, uh, my old clinic, Berkeley Fire Department and other first responders in the Bay Area. And it was enormously helpful for them. Like these were, [00:19:00] uh, men and women who were, you know, Just living a hard lifestyle, you know, being a first responder is really difficult and challenging.

And, um, a lot, in a lot of cases, they weren't, um, yet fully aware of a lot of these factors and how they influence their blood sugar. And they got, you know, this gave them a black and white, you know, so to speak, report, um, of like, oh, wow, look at what happened when they had that huge bowl of pasta and then drank three beers before I went to sleep.

My, my war, in this case, it was like a war ring, they had, we gave them war rings and they were also had CGMs. They got a chance to see like, Exactly how the choices they were making and also not necessarily things that were imposed on them just by their work lifestyle. You know, if they got a call in the middle of the night or whatever, like how that affected their, how all of these, uh, external factors were affecting their health and wellbeing.

It was very enlightening for them and life [00:20:00] changing in a number of different cases. So I think in situations like that can be super helpful. Um, The other end of that spectrum is people who just go too far, I think, and, you know, they've got a spreadsheet with every possible data point and they're looking over that, you know, they, they, they're just obsessing over, over every last possible trackable, you know, And I think that can become excessive and I've had, you know, not a lot of patients like that in my career, but certainly some.

And I think that can be a distraction and just take away from just living our lives and, you know, having a well rounded, balanced, uh, approach. Sometimes I wonder if the goal of wearables should actually be to outgrow them over time. So like if you're right, if you have metabolic dysfunction, right. Having a garment on for the first time and understanding what your resting heart rate is and the steps that you're getting and your caloric burn, I'm sure that's super helpful.

But at a [00:21:00] certain point, I would think, like I would hope I wouldn't have to rely on an eight sleep mattress to be able to tell me if I got a good or bad night of sleep as well. Exactly. Or the war. The war ring is similar, you know, it's just, and I think actually for most people, that is what happens. And there's even this.

This phenomenon, some people call it the top drawer phenomenon or what, you know, where the health trackers end up in the top drawer, you know, in the junk drawer or whatever. So, people tend to be enthusiastic about them for the first few weeks and then after they've worn them for some period of time, they, they.

They begin to, um, kind of be able to predict what they're going to say, right? Because it's like what you said, when you wake up in the morning, you're like, I, I haven't seen my, my, what the aura app is telling me, but I can probably tell you, you know, predict what it's going to say with relatively pinpoint accuracy.

You know, like it might not be exact, but it's going to be pretty close. And same thing with like heart rate variability and, uh, you know, blood [00:22:00] sugar and all that stuff. But, but again, like, There's nothing wrong with that. Like if it's training people to be able to do that on their own, without the assistance of one of those devices, then it's served its purpose.

It's probably not good for the LTV of those brands, but, but which is why so many of them have gone to subscription models. Um, but you know, it's, it's, it's still a valuable service to provide. Is there anything that you're looking into right now that. It has you very interested, um, has your attention and has your interest because.

Go into your blogger, your blogs and your articles that you have on your website, you have some of the best writing on a bunch of different more fringe types topics. Like, one of the ones that comes to mind for me was, I remember you did this amazing article on just water quality and, and, um, you did a bit of a deep dive on, like, just a shower, shower filters and why people should use a shower filter.[00:23:00]

I'm curious if you have anything like that that comes to mind that you've been thinking about, like I know mold is becoming more common for people to be thinking about parasites, so anything that you're doing a deep dive on now that's interesting to you? Yeah, good question. Um,

I mean, because of Adapt Naturals and how much my focus is there, I'm, a lot of my free time right now is going towards formulation of, uh, supplements, which, You know, my whole career arc has been oriented around trying to have the biggest impact that I can have. And, you know, I started as a clinician, just treating patients one on one.

And if we did, you know, I forget what the name of this framework is, but it's like a T. Where, like, this part of the T is depth, and this part of the top of the T is, is like breadth. Um, one on one [00:24:00] work with, with individual, with patients is deep. You know, you can really profoundly impact, sometimes even save, individual lives, which is very meaningful and rewarding.

And I love that. I loved that work for many, many years. Um, but there's obviously a hard limit to the number of people that you can have that kind of impact on. And so over time I started to get interested in how can I, how can I expand that? a larger number of people. And then, you know, I launched a clinician training program in 2016.

We've trained over 600 doctors in 32 countries, uh, in functional medicine, with an ancestral perspective. Um, and then I launched, you know, but again, even there, like. That's a drop in the bucket, right? I'm proud of what we, what we did, but 600 doctors, you know, they'll go on and see 2, 000 patients in their lifetime or more.

That's, that's a substantial impact, but we, [00:25:00] we know that only a small fraction of people are going to be able to access one on one functional medicine care because it's expensive and it's not integrated into the healthcare system for the reasons we talked about before. So then I launched a health coach training program.

And the idea there was that more people would be able to access health coaching because it's lower cost and health coaches can be trained more quickly and easily because they don't require, you don't need to have medical training in order to do it. And the supplement line is really kind of the latest.

Step in that process of trying to translate my clinical experience into an, uh, uh, something that more people can access. And there's just so much junk in the supplement space. And I know, I know this probably is better than anybody given my background and you know, how much exposure I've had to the supplement industry through being a clinician.

And kind of knowing where all the bodies are [00:26:00] buried, so to speak, um, in that, in that industry. And I just wanted to be, to create products that people could really trust and that had evidence based clean ingredients that were actually work and move the needle. Cause so many supplements don't, as I'm sure you both know.

Um, so yeah, that's most of my time now is spent. You know, reading research, I've just always looking at recent papers and trying to stay, you know, totally current and ahead of the curve in terms of what we know about how these various ingredients can be leveraged to improve our health and extend our, our lifespan and longevity.

I would have to imagine for you. It's really fun formulating because I would think that With all the experience you've had, I'm sure you've had all these ideas of like, oh, if only this supplement exists, or if only that supplement existed. And I'm sure there is also this question of [00:27:00] why am I going to like affiliate or work with a brand where like maybe they have good products, but they're not 100 percent in line with my standards.

When now with the beauty of the internet, it's like I can create my own brand, do all the formulating myself and put something out into the market. That's truly best in class. Right. That's such a good insight. Um, that's really actually why I decided to create my own, my own supplement line in a nutshell.

I got so tired of compromise and it's not to say that, look, there are a lot of. pretty good products out there. Um, and, but it, it got irritating to be honest over many years of having to like compromise on this thing and then on this thing and like, oh, that one's almost right, but not quite. And I would do this differently if I could really formulate my own or That one is close, but it doesn't have this.

And Oh, now I need to, I want my patient to take all three of these different ingredients, but shoot, there isn't a product that has all three of those ingredients. So they have to now take three different supplements when it could easily be one. You know, there's so [00:28:00] many decision points like that. Um, and now you're right.

It's super fun. Like with our, our, our most recent. Two products that we launched this year. One was biovail omega plus is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. So why do most people take fish oil? Well, one is if they're not eating fish or seafood in their diet, and they're just trying to replace that as a nutrient.

But another is they. They might have muscle or joint discomfort, or mobility issues, or post exercise inflammation, or um, maybe issues with skin, hair, and nails, or just kind of youthful appearance, vitality, etc. Um, but there's so many crap, rancid, oxidized fish oils on the market that like 90 percent of them aren't worth taking.

So that's number one. But then the way I think about it is like, We know why people are taking this, so why not add a couple of other ingredients that support and extend those benefits even further. And so I [00:29:00] added the most bioavailable form of curcumin on the market, novasol, it's 185 times more bioavailable than standard Kirkman Preparations and then Nigella Sativa, which is black seed oil.

These have incredible metabolic, cardiovascular, brain and cognitive benefits, skin, hair and nails. A lot of the same benefits are in the same category as fish oil, but there's no other product on the market that has all three of those ingredients in it. And so, if you wanted to take all of those at the full dose that you would need to benefit, you had to buy three, Separate products and spend all that money.

And so it was super fun for me to be able to put those all in one product, you know, two gel caps instead of like three different bottles and make that work. And then we just did the same thing with colostrum. Um, we launched biovail colostrum plus and that has colostrum from a hundred percent pasture raised grass fed.

cows, never [00:30:00] given hormones or antibiotics, cold processed, all the good things you would expect, but then it has lactoferrin and beta glucan in it, which are two other ingredients that powerfully support the gut and the gut and the immune system, which is why people take cholesterol, right? So, It's, it's been, um, really fun and like, I, I, I, you know, I, I spent months researching and developing both of those products and, uh, it's really been satisfying to see the response and see how well they're working for people.

And, you know, we had almost 20, 000 customers this last year, which is in our first full year of operation. And the reality is like. In my whole career of 15 years of treating patients, I probably have seen 1, 500 patients so and and we're just getting started, you know, like this year, I think we're probably going to have more like 40 to 60, 000 new customers.

So it's like, [00:31:00] it's an exponential impact. And that's what I get most excited about. That's so exciting. And it's really. It's encouraging and, um, just, just awesome to see you being able to expand into this new role and new phase of, of what you're trying to do, which is reach more people and have a bigger impact.

Um, so just, you know, want to give you an applause and, and say, you know, keep up the great work. We're obviously huge fans have been consuming your content for a while and just really enjoy all the information that you put out there. You put it out in a way that's really digestible And, um, easy to consume and always kind of at the forefront of what's happening.

So just very appreciative of all the work that you do, Chris. Well, Brett and Harry, it's been a pleasure talking with you. I love your show and appreciate you, you guys, um, getting the good word out there. Cause we, we need more people to have access to this kind of information and especially at a time where.

[00:32:00] It's more difficult to, to actually get this information out there. I appreciate it. You guys are doing the hard work of making that possible and really enjoy our conversation. We appreciate it, Chris. Thank you so much. Thanks Chris.