[00:01] Eric: Throughout this series, we've been talking a lot about nickel. because, well, there's a lot to talk about, but that wouldn't be the case if it weren't for EVs. Sorry, stainless steel, you're great and all, but it's EVs time to shine. The global push for EVs has made nickel one of the most important, a.k.a. critical metals in the world, which also makes it a huge opportunity.
[00:20] By 2030, it's projected that over half of all new vehicles sold will be electric, and it'll just go up from there. In fact, over that same eight-year period, the EV market is expected to quadruple to nearly $1 trillion. Again, that's just the start. I sat down with my first guest, Emma Jarratt, the managing editor of Electric Autonomy Canada to talk about the world of EVs.
[00:42] Here's a little of that conversation. Thanks again for joining us, Emma. I wanted to start by asking you for a thousand-foot view of the EV world right now. Because when I look at all the different pieces and see the amount of change, money, opportunity, risk in chaos, the whole thing seems dizzying. I mean, they call it a revolution, right? So, there's clearly a lot of action and a whole lot at stake.
[01:05] Emma Jarratt: There absolutely is. What I would say is that it's a very dynamic space right now and foreseeably for the next decade, at least every day, there is something different, new, exciting happening. There are tons of public financing that is going into trying to make this transition successful and equitable ideally. So, I think that where the seeming chaos comes from is on the innovation side and happily, it's not chaos, it's very organized movement. But there's so much innovation happening in so many different sectors that all feed into this one goal of making our transportation sector zero emission.
[01:53] Eric: When you talk EV innovation, I immediately think of vehicle range. I know this has been a common knock against EVs but it's clearly getting better. So, what are your thoughts on where the tech is today and the importance people seem to put on range?
[02:08] Emma Jarratt: Well, again, that's a funny psychological barrier is that some of the public has built up in their minds. Like do you expect to be able to drive without ever stopping the gas station in your gas car driving from Vancouver to Edmonton? No, exactly. It's one of those things where we are in expectation of the new technology so greatly exceeds A, what our needs actually are, but B, what even our internal combustion vehicles are performing for us today.
[02:42] But I think where people get stuck on range is the uncertainty about charging infrastructure.
[02:48] Eric: Right.
[02:49] Emma Jarratt: And will they have access to it is the first question. How do I know where the Chargers are? And happily, public charging networks are building out that there is a real appreciation of this need. I mean, we spent a hundred years building a gas station infrastructure and hopefully the infrastructure needed for charging stations will not take 100 years.
[03:14] And it will be on par with in terms of availability with gas stations much sooner than that.
[03:22] Eric: Your point about infrastructure is an important one. If people have the established support they need to make the switch, it makes sense that they'd probably be less inclined to find issues like range and with less hesitation these people can feel free to get on board, which is exactly what they should do. I mean, ultimately, the EV revolution is about saving the planet, is it not?
[03:42] Emma Jarratt: I wish that EVs could save the planet. That would be very nice and neat and tidy. They aren't the silver bullet unfortunately, but they will help be a really important part of the solution by electrifying transportation and pivoting completely our energy generation to zero emission or renewables. You're looking at slicing off 30% of our national GHG emissions which is a pretty significant slice of the pie. That is the environmental case.
[04:20] Eric: Well said. Now, let's switch gears for a moment and look at this EV decision through a sustainability lens. What do you say to someone who's making a decision between gas or electric when it comes to carbon footprint? What does the cradle to grave story look like when comparing these two options?
[04:34] Emma Jarratt: Well, it starts underground, I guess. Like a gas car, it just goes in a slightly different order. So, we all know that the life cycle of a gas car is the parts are made in a factory, the car is assembled and driven off a lot by its owner, and then it spends its life however long it's in use, which could be between ten to 15 plus years, if it's very well taken care of, spewing emissions from burning gas.
[05:05] And then the car ends up being hopefully recycled, which is pretty good for the metal recovery of the body of the car. I think the last I heard that was about like 87% recovery is able to happen if a car is recycled or a nice car is able to be recycled. On the electric side, the car starts underground.
[05:29 Like I said, the battery minerals have to be collected, refined, turned into a battery as we know it today, which is a very long process that I don't have to bog you down with. But long story short, the battery has to be made before it can go into the car. And then that car spends its life not emitting anything.
[05:50]] And at the end of it, the car for however long it lasts between ten to hopefully 15 years, the car will be recycled. Both the vehicle body, which is on par with how well a gas car can be recycled at about 87% and then the battery gets recycled, which is at an even better recovery rate of about 95%.
[06:17] The reason I said both cars start underground is that the fuel for the gas car comes from the ground as we know like that's where we get oil from. And I think people underestimate how much we don't see of how the gas we pump into our cars is created. We have to dig down, it has to be pulled up, it has to be refined and piped and shipped to distribution centers then trucked to the gas stations to be put back into the reservoirs underneath then to just be pumped out of the nozzle into someone's vehicle.
[06:56] And you can see that the footprint of that vehicle is going to be significantly greater than the battery one.
[07:04] Eric: What you're saying makes perfect sense, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. So, let me ask you this. Why do so many people struggle with making this switch to electric? Why is there so much resistance and unfounded criticism when we know this is the right thing to do?
[07:19] Emma Jarratt: I think that people who have concerns about switching to an electric vehicle, like it's just human nature. Most of our concerns are fueled by fear and often fear of the unknown. And so, this unknown grows in their mind. I'm expected to just trade in this car that I've had for five or seven years that works for me, that I can depend on, that I have confidence in, their gas vehicle and go with this totally unknown car that I've never even clapped eyes on or don't know anybody else has clapped eyes on it.
[07:52] It feels very jarring, I think, We all like comfort. We all like the familiar and what we know and our routines. But I would just say to those people who have those fears of a technology that they're unfamiliar with, did you feel that way about phones? Like, do you make all your business calls or all your calls for your life of a rotary phone that's bolted to your kitchen wall?
[08:19] Or do you have a cell phone in your pocket? And if you have a cell phone in your pocket, tell me about the process of buying it. Did you do a lot of research on it? Did you want to find the model that's the lightest and the fastest performance and has the best camera on it, the best bells and whistles?
[08:38] And then when you actually went to purchase it, did you get to go to the store to hold it in your hand and look at it and sort of try out the features before you pulled out your credit card to buy it and go home with it? And I think that it's that interactive part of the purchase experience that really, at least in my case, I can just speak about my experience that really pays to any question marks I had in my mind.
[09:05] It was that that weekend that I finally got to sit in this electric car and went like, oh, all the things that I thought would be hard for me are not hard at all. And there's tons of benefits that I didn't anticipate when I was imagining driving around this thing.
[09:21] Eric: It's interesting. We can all see and accept the importance of EVs, yet many of us still resist them to a degree. As Emma says, it's human nature to resist change. So maybe it makes sense because this is change on a scale that will rarely see in our lifetimes. The entire global automobile industry is getting flipped on its head and everyone from the largest manufacturers to the little all end users have to find their way through it.
[09:43] There is no alternative, this is happening because it needs to for the future of our planet. So, let's make sure it happens right. There is so much money and opportunity at hand here, which means there is also incredible incentive to innovate and compete. This can be a great thing but also a scary one. As we discussed previously, we can't be conflicted or compromise in our pursuit of electrification because ultimately the stakes are too important.
[10:06] I spoke with my next guest about all the activity and excitement happening in the EV space and the role of ESG, Environmental, Social and Governance in helping keep us on track. Here's some of that conversation with Mr. Philippe Couillard, chair of the Canadian Division of British for the leading UK based battery cell manufacturer. Okay. So, I was reading an article the other day, Mr. Couillard, that said there has been something like 1.3 million patents roughly since 2017 in the lithium ion battery space.
[10:36] That is a lot of patents. I'm just wondering what's that world like right now? Is it really just kind of exploding and on fire?
[10:45] Philippe Couillard: Well, patents have started accumulating for a long time as we've been talking about these batteries for many, many years and it's accelerating right now, as you said rightly so. Because, for example, new chemistries are coming forward to solid state format is pointing its nose at the door. And so, all these things are happening at the same time about an accelerated pace.
[11:05] But this being said, this is why you need to be constantly innovating in this industry. Is not something where you decide to put the product in the market then it will be the same for the next five years. A lot of people will have a hard time predicting. Telling you what the chemistry, the dominant chemistry will be five, ten years from now, even less than that.
[11:24] Eric: Oh, really? Even less than that is a possibility eh.
[11:27] Philippe Couillard: Yes. For example, look at what's going on now for those familiar with the battery industry. The dominant chemistry until recently and still is, by the way, it's called NMC, Nickel, Manganese, Cobalt. And this is the power type of battery that we see in cars like Teslas and Porsches and all these new EVs that we see all over the place.
[11:48] But an old chemistry called LFB, which Is Lithium, Ion Phosphate, is coming back because it has its own advantages in terms of cost, durability, safety, etc. So sometimes the history reinvents itself. It's not the first time we’ve seen this.
[12:04] Eric: Yeah. I know, speaking of advantages and right now what we're working with, what are the advantages of using nickel in batteries?
[12:12] Philippe Couillard: Well, this is the one of the best metals to store energy. And when we say store energy, what do we mean? The capacity to retain lithium ions but retain them just enough so they can go the other side of the battery when you recharge. Because as you know lithium ion battery is like a seesaw system where ions will go from one side to the other, from the cathode to anode and vice versa, whether you're charging or discharging the battery.
[12:38] So you need a composite that's going to hold them, the ions at the right place but not too hard, not too strongly because you want them to be able to move away to the other side. And while the ions move, the electrons move in a separate circuit that this is what makes your electric motor work, for example, in your EV or whatever you use with electricity.
[12:58] Eric: All of this seems super interesting, but I have to say the more I read and learn about nickel and EVs, the more industry jargon I come across. Can I ask you to help clarify a couple of things like what is a battery ecosystem?
[13:12] Philippe Couillard: All right. Well, what is an Ecosystem? The earth is an ecosystem. It's a system where all components are linked with one another in some way. So, when you talk about an ecosystem for batteries, you need to be the system of organizations, businesses, institutions that they're going to be coordinating their actions from the moment you bind the mineral out of the earth until you put it in a battery.
[13:36] And then finally you put the battery in an EV, electric vehicle. That's called the ecosystem. And the more you control this ecosystem as far as countries are concerned, the better for you because you have a strategic location in this value chain.
[13:49] Eric: Okay. Giga plants. Why are they called giga plants?
[13:54] Philippe Couillard: Because the way we measured the output of a battery manufacturing facility is not the number of []. Frankly, it's not the number of batteries that are produced. It’s the energy that is produced in the form of batteries So when you talk about gigawatts, watts, kilowatts, megawatts, you go back to your high school books and you find this again.
[14:15] But it means this is the energy content in all the batteries that this factory is churning out, let's say, during a year. That's why we use this this terminology. I think Elon Musk is the first one that used the term Giga plants years ago, if I'm not mistaken. I may be mistaken and some of your listeners may correct me, but I believe he was the first one to use this terminology.
[14:38] Eric: Now, I think you're right. Now, I saw that you recently participated in the Critical Minerals and Batteries Conference. What were some of the big themes or takeaways from that conversation as it relates to nickel, etc.?
[14:50] Philippe Couillard : Well, it wasn't all about nickel. The conversation was also about how Canada can be an important player in the battery industry. And what British Volt, the company I work with, brings to the table. So, the way I define this company is first, it's an innovative technology driven company that is based out of the UK ecosystem. Here we are again with the word ecosystem, and one of the best and the first ones was created in the UK.
[15:16] Actually UK and the Oxford University is where the lithium ion battery was invented and a Nobel Prize was given to the Oxford scientists at that time. And since then, it wasn't that much commercialized in the country that invented it, which is, by the way, something we see once in a while. It went away. It went to Asia. But now people are trying to bring it back to Europe, back to the UK, back to USA, back to Canada.
[15:40] So the supply chain is more evenly distributed in the planet. So, we were talking about this advantage British will bring because of its history of being in the center of the one of the best ecosystems in the world around the lithium ion batteries. A company with also significant manufacturing expertise and a quite deep, what we call ESG the thee letters that you see everywhere, Environment, Social Governance, concepts, DBSG commitment and a measurable commitment.
[16:12] And that's what the company is. And that's why we are pushing this advantage not only in terms of the expertise of how to make batteries, but in what context you make batteries, how much carbon-- this is now, we have the days of COP26 in Glasgow. So how much carbon do you use when you make a lithium ion battery?
[16:32] That's going to be a significant issue. In the coming years. So, people are going to be differentiating themselves on many, many criteria. One of them will be, what is your carbon footprint? That's the new way of saying it. And of course, you want this footprint to be as low as possible and you want to be able to measure it.
[16:50] It's easy for me to tell you we're going to manufacture the greenest battery, but I should be able to prove it to you by showing you the numbers. And this is what we're doing at Britishvolt. We are engaging a company that is going to measure continuously what we do in terms of carbon footprint.
[17:06] Eric: It seems that the more conversations I have about nickel and batteries, the more I hear those three letters. Clearly, ESG has an important role to play.
[17:14] Philippe Couillard : The three letters, Environment, we just talked about carbon and greenhouse gas and climate change. Social, what is the impact of this company in its community? For example, Britishvolt has founded a foundation in North Eastern England which is there to give access to young people there to the new jobs brought about by this industrial revolution that the EV and the batteries represent.
[17:39] And G is governance. Do we have a good representation of society in your board of directors, in your company in terms of gender, in terms of origins, etc., etc.? So, these three letters, ESG, this is what it's all about. The connection between the company and the community it's operating into. And also, is becoming—before. Eric, it was something nice to have that you would quote in a conversation.
[18:02] It would look good. But now it's something you must have because people want to be able, again, to measure what you see and not let you get a free ticket on saying whatever you want about how green you are and how low carbon you are.
[18:14] Eric: Yeah. Accountability and also the role of investors kind of as an investor in something like this, you really go to do your research and look into things like that.
[18:23] Phillip Couillard: If you want to say that you're investing in a green revolution and energy transition, then again, you want to make sure that the money you're investing is going to participate in the improvement of the environment, that's something else. So, you need to tell your colleagues investing with you that this company we're investing in is deeply preoccupied with the ESG component of what it does and is able to measure it and be accountable for it. And this is what counts more and more.
This is something when you meet investors that you never discuss basically. You only discuss a product, the technology, the market, prices. But now one of the first questions you're being asked by investors and society in general is what type of an impact you make on society, not only because of the batteries you make or the product you make and sell, but also the way you do it.
[19:15] Again, as I was saying earlier in terms of your commitment to the environment, to society and to a balance governance of the company.
[19:23] Eric: it's reassuring the idea that sustainability and environment have become a priority in the investment world. Hasn't always been the case, I'm sure. On that sustainability topic, I want to ask you one last question. There is only so much that we can mine. So, the question begs how much can we recover from what we use? A previous guest mentioned up to 95%.
[19:42] Are batteries really that recyclable?
[19:45] Philippe Couillard : They are pretty recyclable. That's good news, by the way, because if you look at the number-- you'll see the numbers that are predicted for the next ten, 15, 20 years. At some point there will be no more nickel and lithium to mine and there will be huge quantities. But it's not infinite. So, it's obvious that we do need to recycle as much as possible.
[20:04] The good news is it's technically possible now. There are a few companies coming forward that do a very good job of recuperating the battery of your EV, which now is a big square basis of your car made of metals, plastics, connectors, everything. You recuperate all of this. Plus, you take the minerals and you'll make again new minerals with them, the lithium, the cobalt out the nickel, and you put it back in the recipe to make new batteries.
[20:32] It's kind of a circular economy. If you see what they-- coming back to the origin always. This is also something that is critically important. It's a very good question to ask to any battery manufacturer.
[20:43] Eric: Mr. Couillard, thank you for your time. This is a wonderful chat and very informative. Exactly what I was looking for.
[20:48] Philippe Couillard : It's been a pleasure, Eric, and I wish you all the best as well.
[20:51 Eric: Awesome. Thanks so much.
[20:52] Philippe Couillard : And to your listeners. Okay. Bye, bye.
[20:53] Eric: Thanks so much. Bye, bye. Okay, so what did we learn here? Overall, I'd say the main takeaway is pretty clear. EVs are awesome. Yes, there are some tradeoffs and limitations but the amount of investment and innovation that's happening in this space right now is starting to pay off big time as battery tech just keeps getting better and better.
[21:12] And while there is a reliance on critical metals that are not infinite in their supply like nickel, the high recyclability and circular economy of the tech helps offset those concerns. Ultimately, there is no winning argument against EVs, just some expected resistance that comes with change. We know this is the right thing to do which is why it's happening across the world and why ESG has become such an important piece in keeping us on the straight and narrow as we attempt to save our planet.
[21:37] And while EVs may not be the silver bullet solution, they're pretty close. Electrifying transportation can cut GHG by 30%, which is massive. And that's before we consider the human benefits for going electric or other potential battery applications like powering homes or businesses. We're just at the beginning of this revolution, and in our next episode we'll have a look at the future with the spotlight on where battery tech is going and what it could mean for EVs and beyond.
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