Something to See Here: Masking and Autism

Hosts Julianna Scott and Kelley Jensen explore autism masking—the conscious or unconscious strategy used by autistic people to appear non-autistic. They clarify common misconceptions, distinguishing masking from behavioral changes and social skills. The discussion covers why people mask, the exhausting nature of constant performance, and the importance of safe spaces to unmask. Through personal examples, they examine workplace dynamics, late versus early diagnosis differences, and the balance between fitting in and authentic self-expression. The hosts emphasize that while everyone masks to some degree, autistic individuals face unique challenges navigating a world not designed for them.

Key Takeaways:

• Masking is different from learning social skills— it's driven by external pressure to conform.
• Masking requires significant energy and isn't always successful.
• Home should be a safe space for unmasking.
• Early diagnosis allows for better behavioral training and understanding.
• Late diagnosis often involves years of unconscious masking.
• Workplace accommodations can reduce masking burden.
• Not all quirky behaviors need to be masked if they're harmless.
• Masking shouldn't excuse dangerous or cruel behavior.
  
  

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Website: refrigeratormoms.com
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Creators and Guests

Guest

Julianna Scott

Guest

Kelley Jensen

What is Refrigerator Moms?

Born from 20 years of friendship, during which they navigated the trenches of autism parenting and advocacy, the Refrigerator Moms is Kelley Jensen and Julianna Scott’s way of reaching out to parents waging the same battles they were.  Their purpose with this podcast is to clear the fog, silence the noise, and find a path through neurodivergence for parents that are stuck between bad choices. They tackle parenting topics such as mom guilt, tantrums, pathological demand avoidance, siblings, medication, comorbidities, social media, and much more. 

[Kelley] (0:09 - 0:19)
Welcome to Refrigerator Moms. This episode is titled, Something to See Here, Autism and Masking. Julianna, what is masking?

You hear all about it in sister media.

[Julianna] (0:20 - 0:41)
Yeah, you do. So according to the National Autistic Society, masking is defined as a strategy used by some autistic people consciously or unconsciously to appear non-autistic. So it can also be called social camouflaging, a use of compensatory strategies, or passing.

Oh, passing.

[Kelley] (0:41 - 0:44)
And what is the difference between masking and a behavioral change?

[Julianna] (0:45 - 1:17)
Well, therapeutic behavioral change is made with the buy-in of the autistic person and focuses on the effects on the autistic person, whereas masking uses public perception, shame, and judgment as the driving force and requires significant and continuous effort expended to maintain the behavior change. So this is not something that an autistic person necessarily is coming to, like, you know, internally. It's like outside pressure to be changed.

Yes, to conform.

[Kelley] (1:17 - 1:35)
So Amy Schumer has this documentary out, Room to Move, and her goal, she says with this documentary, is to destigmatize autism. I think a lot of what she's talking about is the need to perform, right? To look a certain way, to act a certain way, say certain things in society is a large in order to get ahead.

[Julianna] (1:36 - 1:54)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm really anxious to watch that documentary. I don't think it's available yet.

I think she's just making the rounds on the festival circuit. But it's about letting people take off that mask. I know she's connected to it because her husband kind of had a late diagnosis, I think, while they were still together.

[Kelley] (1:54 - 2:01)
And I know that you sometimes get agitated because that word, I know you have an issue with the armchair experts.

[Julianna] (2:01 - 2:02)
I do.

[Kelley] (2:02 - 2:06)
Where they had incredible misinformation about masking. Tell everybody what you think of that.

[Julianna] (2:06 - 4:44)
I do want to talk about this because I think this really represents the issue in throwing around this terminology, which I think can be harmful because it's because it's. Well, let me just give you the example. So I'm sure expert with Dax Shepard.

He had an episode with Suzanne O'Sullivan, a neurologist and clinical neuropsychologist, and she wrote a book on over diagnosis. So this came up in that context. So Dax was saying so he said that, you know, we're also including in the diagnosis, like something that which people are called calling masking.

And masking is you don't appear in any way autistic, but you feel autistic on the inside. This concept of masking or camouflaging made complete sense for people with severe autism. And then he says there's a foot.

There's a program on TV. I don't know if you've seen it called love on the spectrum. Well, you know, of course, of course you've seen it.

So he says there's really lovely examples of masking in that where you kind of see that the people are being taught when you go on this date, you have back and forth conversations. You can see them masking in the sense that they're learning the social rules and applying them, but it doesn't really look completely natural ever. The masking is obvious.

Well, here's the thing. They're not masking on that show. No.

They they're well aware of the situation. These are usually two people with autism, right? You know, meeting each other.

And actually the whole point of that show is that they're really letting their math, taking their masks off and being like being themselves. So, so like what he might be referring to is sort of the social niceties. Like you need to ask somebody, you know, about their interests, not about your interests.

Well, that's a social skill. We should all learn. But, but, you know, in on love on the spectrum in particular, a lot of those people on there, they're all about their special interests and they're looking for people who kind of jive with those special interests and who really accept them for who they are.

Like they're not really trying to change, you know, their behavior to fit in, in any kind of like neurotypical way. These are all people who are pretty proud of their differences. So that is not masking.

So, you know, and we've talked about this, like, you know, asking somebody on a date, what they're interested in, that's, you know, kind of giving to get, right? Like that isn't masking.

[Kelley] (4:44 - 4:45)
That's transactional.

[Julianna] (4:45 - 4:58)
It's very transactional. And, and that's, and that makes sense to somebody with autism. You know, it's like, well, you know, if you want to go on another date, you know, this, you know, this is kind of how you function.

You can't just both be staring at each other.

[Kelley] (4:59 - 5:32)
And it might be the mask part on that. And that example might be that, you know, you know, you have to ask this person what they like to do or what they do for a living. And you might notice that they smell really weird or that their clothing doesn't look right or some some esoteric thing about them.

And what you know is you have to not say anything. Right. So you are trying to ignore the sensory input.

That would be the mask that you would put on so that you could continue that conversation, not asking them what they're interested in. No, that is a behavioral change.

[Julianna] (5:32 - 5:44)
Right. Right. So I think there is a lot of confusion about what it actually looks like with someone with autism.

So what about your son? Does he mask?

[Kelley] (5:44 - 6:37)
I would go so far as to say he doesn't know how. But he does understand that certain behaviors not allowed, you know, are not allowed or doesn't serve him. Yeah.

When he veers off from it, quote unquote, weird behavior into behavior that is outside the bounds of, you know, common sense or being polite, right? Yeah. So he loves to do this thing in the airport, loves to go to the airport, and he sees a badge, see someone's name tag, and he wants to say the name.

And then he wants to say hello and salutations. And it's nice to see you. Oh, hi, Julianna.

And you know, when you're in the airport, anytime people have a badge on, they forget that you can see their name. Yes. So yeah, instantly shocks people.

And sometimes in the airport, he, you know, because you can see from miles away the tag on their luggage that might have their name Julianna.

[Julianna] (6:37 - 6:37)
Yeah.

[Kelley] (6:37 - 6:50)
So he's calling out to Julianna who does not know him. And people's reaction to that very odd thing to do tells him everything he needs to know about whether or not he can keep engaging them. Right.

[Julianna] (6:50 - 6:56)
So okay, so he's getting input from society telling him my name, right?

[Kelley] (6:56 - 7:13)
So that would be wrong. And then he's, yes, ignore it. Or it would be wrong for him if a person thinks that's rude, it doesn't want to engage him to keep trying to force the engagement.

Right. And so that's a behavioral change we'd have to make. But if he just wants to call out someone's name, and that's just weird, and some people like it, and some people don't.

[Julianna] (7:13 - 7:54)
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, my son, definitely, I had this conversation with him a little bit. And, you know, he he is, at first, he was just like, well, I don't mask. And then as we got, you know, into the conversation a little bit more, you know, because he is very much himself.

Yeah. But at work, he definitely does like he's not, like, quote, unquote, out at work, you know, so, you know, make sure that he doesn't do some of the typical things that people who mask you like, you know, overshare on special interests, things like things like that. So, you know, in the workplace, for sure.

[Kelley] (7:54 - 8:33)
So let's get into that. What does look at some good examples of what masking looks like, and why it's important. Having a mask is an important tool for us all for definitely for an autistic person that has ambitions and functions in society.

But in order to know when to take a mask off, you have to have a really good understanding when you have to put it on, right. So masking might be mirroring your dress to those you see around you. So if you go to work and everybody has a suit on, and a suit is miserable for you, but you expect to wear a suit because that's what's going on in the workplace, that would be an example of masking, right?

That suit and tie.

[Julianna] (8:34 - 8:54)
Right, right. Or like hiding a stem. And I feel like, you know, that's easier to mask these days, once like fidget spinners and things like that became really popular for students, especially like, you know, that kind of fidget became, you know, used to be kind of exclusively autistic kids would fit use fidgets or sometimes, you know, putting

[Kelley] (8:54 - 8:59)
because the input from the noise all around you put your hands on your ears, but now you could just keep your headphones in, right?

[Julianna] (9:00 - 9:37)
You can wear your headphones, you know, that like a lot of people are doing that. But also like asking more questions than you might not be comfortable doing. So like, you know, you have to have those sort of transactional, you know, oh, how are you like, inquire, how are people doing like, for a long time, my son would, you know, in order to get to the conversations he wanted to have, he kind of knew he needed to do that kind of transactional.

Give to get Yeah, give to get like, you know, and that again, that's probably more behavior than masking. That's why this is such a weird gray area sometimes.

[Kelley] (9:37 - 10:16)
But if you have to do it for everything, if you have to give to get all day, then eventually, it's on top of the sensory needs that you have, eventually, you're exhausted from it all, right? Planning what to say in advance. It's another thing is a lot of times, okay, I know that I have to ask these three questions.

What did you do this weekend, you know, and sometimes, life, life's and the opportunity to ask your three questions that you had practice will not come up, right? Because there's an emergency or those, you know, people are talking about something else, right? That's exhausting.

If you miss that cue that read the room and you have a zero ability to read the room.

[Julianna] (10:16 - 10:45)
And also, masking isn't always good masking, right? You know, sometimes, it still looks a little weird or off. Because, you know, you might be, you know, try to put that mask on, but it's not, maybe it slips a little bit, or maybe it's so, you know, you know, you're putting people on the spectrum are putting so much energy and effort into it.

It's exhausting. And sometimes it slips a little bit, or there's some stiltedness to it. So you can, the mask isn't, you know, 100% on there.

[Kelley] (10:46 - 11:07)
So we talked a little bit about why someone would choose to mask the fit and socially succeed at work or school, you know, interpersonal goals to achieve and an understanding that masking is part of getting where they want to go. Sometimes it can even choose to all these things unconsciously, it can be an unconscious choice to put a mask on, right?

[Julianna] (11:07 - 12:37)
Yeah, no, definitely. I think school is a good example. Because I think a lot of kids feel that pressure, like maybe they were teased or bullied or anything.

They're not thinking like, oh, well, then I need to, I need to, you know, do this. They just start to conform a little bit. And they're like, okay, I know, unconsciously, okay, if I start copying them, and repressing some of the things that my natural or my natural inclinations, I'm going to get along better, or I'm going to go with routine.

Like, for example, so my son was in, it was in a special day class, but it the masking wasn't so much as socially fitting in, but it was the routine. It was like fitting in like, I want to I want to push against all of these, like, you know, these rules and and how I need to act in this class. I don't want to withhold what I'm saying to students or teachers or anything like that.

Even though, you know, the consequence of that in that environment might not have been, you know, as bad, although he was on the playground and he was saying things and he was like it was starting to, the mask was starting to crack. So he would hold it together at school as best he could. And then you'd come home and let down, which was is really common.

You know, our home is a safe space to unmask. So I think that's really common for a lot of kids. And it should be I mean, the home should be a place where masks are off.

[Kelley] (12:37 - 12:42)
We used to say, if he's doing well at school, he knew whatever he wants at home, right?

[Julianna] (12:43 - 12:52)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we were happy that he was, you know, I mean, we didn't think of it as putting a mask on, but we were happy he was like holding it together there.

[Kelley] (12:52 - 12:56)
And we would take all of the bad behavior or negative maladaptive behavior at home.

[Julianna] (12:56 - 13:05)
But the problem with that too, is, you know, he would, he would come up, we would warn the school, it's like, okay, he's, he's really having meltdowns at home.

[Kelley] (13:06 - 13:06)
Yeah.

[Julianna] (13:06 - 13:37)
It's just a matter of time before before it starts. Yeah, the mask starts to crack. We didn't say it like that at the time, of course.

And sure enough, you know, it started on the playground, and then it started happening in the classroom. And they were, you know, like, what's going on? Like, this isn't, this isn't the kid we know.

And I'm like, actually, that's exactly the kid. Yeah, like that is who he is. Right.

Like he is. And so that's the problem. It's just like, they're not seeing who that person really is because that mask is on.

[Kelley] (13:37 - 14:07)
Right. And sometimes that's why people have chosen to take off the mask, or he didn't choose to take off the mask, it just fell off. It was too exhausting.

It was too many hours to hold it together. It was too many routines to follow. It was too much to do.

And that is one of the things that we all need to be conscious of. When we're asking an autistic person at school, or even at work, if an artistic person is asking themselves to behave a certain way, that mask has got to come off eventually.

[Julianna] (14:07 - 15:22)
Right. And that's what's important at that point to kind of help them with that transition of taking that mask off. You can't just, you can't, if it just falls off, or if you just rip it off, you know, the results aren't always so great.

Like it's jarring for everybody involved. And especially the autistic person. Yeah, absolutely.

Because they're then they're getting the reaction to that mask coming off, you know, and again, all of that pressure of expectation. So, you know, unconscious or, or conscious. It's holding that mask on is really hard.

And ultimately, you know, people do stop masking, whether it's, again, the exhaustion, the overstimulation, just fried, or sometimes, you know, even as adults, they might just choose to stop masking, because they're just like, I don't know what yeah, like, again, the sort of like, let my free flag fly, like, it's harmless. You know, this isn't this isn't, you know, screaming at people in, in, you know, in a classroom or something. This is just like, you know what, I want to just be more myself.

And they take it off that way. And they can deal with the consequences. Usually, if you're doing that, you know the risk of taking off that mask and you feel comfortable.

[Kelley] (15:23 - 15:52)
Absolutely. And so what's the difference between masking, or code switching, and or something neurotypical person, a mask neurotypical person, if I were going to be going into a very difficult business meeting, and I know I was going to have to exercise diplomacy, I was going to have lunch with a friend who I know is prone to certain behaviors. And so I go into that with a certain level of masking.

And what's the difference between that and autistic masking?

[Julianna] (15:53 - 16:17)
Pretty much nothing. Nothing is different really in function or execution. I mean, we all mask.

I know I do it. I definitely like, if I'm around a certain group of people, maybe I'm not going to swear all the time. I'm not going to swear on this podcast.

Or maybe even even amongst groups of friends. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe I don't advertise that I am a member of the Jane Austen Society.

[Kelley] (16:18 - 16:26)
Maybe I keep that mask and one of our papers is gonna be all about Jane Austen. Oh, yeah.

[Julianna] (16:26 - 19:07)
Well, I do think we should do something on on special interests. Yes, absolutely. But, um, yeah, I mean, we all do it.

So, you know, that's the question that kind of the difference is it's like, like other disabilities, autistic people are functioning in this world, not designed for them. And so they're expected to take on that burden of, you know, putting on that mask required, you know, they're required to kind of accommodate other people. And this also comes up a lot about, you know, how much of that mask should you put on?

And I pulled out something that I had read a while ago, it was in the New Yorker, I mean, the New York Times, sorry. And it was a workplace, sort of advice column. And it came up, it was about someone had to talk to a neurodiverse colleague, and a reader wrote in to inquire about what she should do regarding a colleague on the autism spectrum who interacts with a wide variety of other colleagues in a semi public role and who behaves as the reader put it always in ways that are brusque and rude to them.

And the advice columnist said that this seems like less of an issue of emotional intelligence or personality diversity than just plain obnoxiousness, obstinance and entitlement and said this guy is obviously a lost cause. And oh, all the she got all the pushback. And, you know, people calling her, you know, ableist, offensive, uninformed, you know, blatantly bigoted.

Everyone was just fuming. But it brought up a really interesting, you know, that this weird gray area, right, of like, what masks, you know, are sort of, you know, expected, required, what should they do? And then, you know, should a neurodiverse person in the workplace, you know, get a coach, you know, and then so so this advice columnist spoke to somebody who is a neurodiversity consultant who does job coaching and kind of explains to that person, you know, you shouldn't say, you know, we use these words or be brusque or, you know, all of those sort of those softeners that need to be used, you know, putting a little bit of that mass bad on. But then it also kind of begs the question, you know, how much responsibility should those people in the workplace take?

You know, should they be more tolerant of that? Or just say, you know, and give them a pass or say, or look at it from their perspective, well, they might seem brusque, but they're a perfectionist, and they're just trying to get the best work out of somebody.

[Kelley] (19:08 - 19:22)
Well, I think that is just, well, first of all, communication, better communication. You know, if you are a person that's neurodivergent, you still have to have a certain level of behavior to function in the workplace. That's, that's a first thing.

[Julianna] (19:22 - 19:23)
I mean, nobody should be a jerk.

[Kelley] (19:23 - 20:04)
No, but how often are you rude? Is it all the time? Do you have some great moments?

Is it part of a team building that you are making progress? Or are you just stuck in a behavior pattern? Because neurodivergent or not, we all need to be conscious of other people's feelings.

I mean, that that's, yeah, across the board. Yes. But you reach an interesting point, which I was thinking when you were talking about diversity, neurodiversity coach in the workplace.

Ideally, that worker would have had that coaching as a child or a teen, right?

[Julianna] (20:04 - 20:04)
Right.

[Kelley] (20:04 - 20:06)
But so this is a little bit more common in the late diagnosis.

[Julianna] (20:06 - 20:52)
I was just going to say, I think that it happens a lot in the late diagnosis or maybe, I mean, obviously you wouldn't get a neurodiversity coach if you don't know you're on the spectrum. But, you know, maybe that sometimes even prompts you. It's like, okay, if I'm not doing, if I'm not, you know, working well with others, you know, I think sometimes that goes into, okay, maybe there is something, maybe it's maybe it's me, not you.

I don't know. But what did I do? What am I doing wrong?

Right. You know, right. What's what's not computing, but that late diagnosis thing.

So how, you know, I think that masking relationship does change if, you know, depending on the age of diagnosis, a lot of people who, who are diagnosed late, they've been doing a lot of masking. Yeah.

[Kelley] (20:53 - 21:34)
Well, I can come back. My son obviously had an early diagnosis and the difference between early diagnosis, people feeling masking as opposed to late diagnosis, you know, I can come back to the example of him wanting to shout out everybody's name in the airport. He knows through years of behavioral training that if someone is says leave me alone or, or it's just rude or ignores him, move on.

He, you know, it's not like he would keep going because he's, he understands that that's the behavior that his behavior is not appealing to that. And I think that's the difference between an early diagnosis and a lot of behavioral training and a lot of trying to understand interpersonal relationships.

[Julianna] (21:34 - 23:15)
Then somebody who has late diagnosis, or maybe never, maybe you told them that, or, or especially as I know, a lot of girls are, are diagnosed late, maybe, you know, as young girls, they're bullied in school and there's a lot of peer pressure to conform, which all girls are subjected to. So, or okay, some of the bullies, some of the bully, but not everybody is subjected to it. But I know which one I was.

Thanks. Thanks, bullies. Um, I'm a stronger person for it.

But, you know, by learning, you learn from that rejection from people telling you, you know, you're being weird, that you're like, Oh, I better not be weird. Um, or you learn to just go or you just, or yes, or you just learn to be like, okay, I just don't care what you think. But if you're, you know, often you are pushed into that, that mask.

And so with, without knowing that there's some underlying, you know, socio, social, social communication issues that are really confounding factors that, you know, you might not really be reading the situation or understanding the situation. Um, and that would really help org be getting those therapies to help you deal with that or having that soft place to fall at home and, and let up a little bit and just, you know, you know, take a, take a breath and be yourself or, you know, make a concerted effort to find those friends where you can be yourself. And that doesn't happen until much later.

[Kelley] (23:16 - 23:27)
All right. So now we've arrived at the, what would we do? And again, all this information is in our paper on our website, refrigerator moms.com, along with a lot of other stuff that we didn't cover.

[Julianna] (23:27 - 23:28)
That's right. So go there.

[Kelley] (23:29 - 24:19)
So yes. Uh, and if our child, children wants to, if our child wants to unmask and faces social backlash as a result, what we do, we do. So this is an interesting question.

And it kind of comes back to my son being weird in the airport. What is the harm? Is it something harmless?

Is he behaving badly? And is he disturbing people? So that's where you sort of drugline, where is the harm and what he's doing?

And if it's just a matter of people that don't get it, then, you know, then oh well, you know, maybe I'll even dye my hair green with you. But if it is that he's inconveniencing people, you know, legitimately inconveniencing people, then, you know, you have to have a, and then that's a, that's becomes a behavioral item that we have to work on, right? That a social story, whatever your method of delivering, hey, not everybody wants to be greeted by you screaming at them in the airport.

[Julianna] (24:20 - 25:12)
Yeah. That actually, you were saying that I was remembering, you know, I guess this is not, not great to confess to, but there were times where I kind of put the mask on my son. And I say this like, because of the social backlash, like he really loved the color pink.

He loved my little pony. He loved sparkly everything tassels, you know, sparkly shoes, all these things. And I guess he was probably in maybe third grade, I guess maybe.

Oh, he liked pink before that. I remember there was a whole day in kindergarten class where he had this, he had this, he had this really cute, um, Brooks Brothers pink polo shirt that my mom had gotten him. He loved it.

And he wanted to wear it as much as possible. And of course he wore it to kindergarten. It was a mainstream kindergarten class and everyone gave him grief for it.

[Kelley] (25:12 - 25:13)
Which is so strange.

[Julianna] (25:13 - 26:16)
I know kindergarten. And the teacher made this whole thing about like, you know, pink is an everyone color and all this stuff. It didn't really make a difference.

So he didn't wear that to school as much, but it came a point where he really wanted, we were shopping for shoes and he really wanted these sparkly pink tennis shoes. And I just said, I love these shoes. I love that you love these shoes, but, um, other people might not love that you love these shoes.

And are you ready for that? Like, are you ready for the social backlash? You know, if someone teases you about this, are you going to be okay with that?

And he said, no, like, I mean, he didn't, it wasn't as calm a conversation as this was, but yeah, he's like, no. And I said, well, when you're ready to wear that, you know, to wear that and not care, we'll get you those shoes and I'll get a pair of match. Yeah, we'll go together, but yes, it has to be.

So, you know, instead his room was pink is my little ponies were all, you know, in the fuzzy layer. He had the fuzzy, he had a fuzzy layer. He did have a fuzzy layer.

[Kelley] (26:17 - 26:18)
He would, he would go to adult pain.

[Julianna] (26:18 - 26:23)
It was all pink and it had fluffy blankets and a tassel. Yes. It was the fuzzy layer.

[Kelley] (26:23 - 26:52)
That is a perfect example of going home and unmasking. Absolutely. Because you don't want anybody to know that you love pink, which is your right to love pink.

Yeah. But you have to be ready to deal with that. And you get to that point of where your level of comfort is for dealing with other people's scrutiny of you.

When you get there. Right. That is your business of when you're going to get there and you put this pink shoes on when you're there, right?

Right. And in the meantime, it is perfectly acceptable to have a pink shoes on in your room.

[Julianna] (26:52 - 27:53)
Right. And now as, uh, as an adult, you know, this goes into our next question that we address is if our kids want to keep their masks on and you know, as an adult, my son admits like he wants to keep that mask on at work. And sometimes, you know, sometimes it slips a little like he has to go to work dinners and things like that, where there's, you know, food he doesn't want.

He's very particular about food and he'll get some, you know, ribbing. I think it's gentle. He thinks it's gentle ribbing.

I, you know, from all accounts, he's well liked at work. So I think it is gentle ribbing these days. So, but, you know, he is, like I said, he's, he's not out at work.

He's not, um, you know, the mask is on and that's where he's comfortable. And that's fine. Like, I think he, he doesn't, I don't think he's expending that much energy with that mask.

So I think it to me, to him, it's worth it. And that's what I always want to make sure. Like, you know, are you exhausted by this or is this something that you're willingly doing?

[Kelley] (27:53 - 28:38)
Um, do you have an outlet? Yeah, that it for it. So this is a good leads into our next question.

If someone was hesitant to pursue therapy for the mask, their masking skills because they thought it would minimize their autism or vice versa, if they were just hesitant to learn more about themselves, what would we do? What would we recommend? And, you know, again, communication, good communication starts with communicating with yourself and knowing what your needs are.

And you have to have an honest conversation about what your goals are, what you want for yourself, and whether or not this mask is serving you. So sometimes if burden and the weight of the mask is too much, then you might need some help taking it off and just being yourself. If you feel like you can handle it because you have a great coping mechanisms for taking that mask off.

[Julianna] (28:38 - 28:39)
Right.

[Kelley] (28:39 - 28:45)
I think it's fine. And I think that all boils down to how much help you have. How many trusted sources you have to talk to?

[Julianna] (28:45 - 29:01)
Yeah. And really learning what you need. Like maybe if you're in college, you need a single room.

You know, you can go back and just let down and be yourself and have that private space. So you don't have to keep a mask on in front of roommates and everyone else. Like, you know, find those coping tools.

[Kelley] (29:01 - 29:24)
You might at work, you know, you might be exhausted by having to go out to lunch every day with colleagues because that one hour to yourself where everybody's gone to lunch, it's time to take your mask off, breathe deeply, just dive into Lake Me for a while. You have to know that about yourself. And it's again, as so many of these things are trial and error and a really honest, deep conversation with trusted people and with yourself.

[Julianna] (29:25 - 29:35)
Yeah. Yeah. So we answer more of these questions in the paper, like if someone we know starts acting autistic and calls it unmasking.

So go to the paper at RefrigeratorMoms.com.

[Kelley] (29:36 - 30:07)
All right. So we are at the to do list portion of the paper. Again, the entire list is on our website in the paper, in the immediate.

So all of our to do lists are broken out into immediate, short term, long term and blocked. Don't ever do this in the immediate mask or unmask consciously, meaning that be aware that you're doing it, have a deep understanding of what your mask is for and how it's serving you. Ask for accommodations so that you can take the mask off when you need them.

[Julianna] (30:08 - 30:15)
Yeah, like the like the single room, fuzzy layer, fuzzy layer, get a fuzzy layer, fuzzy layer, you, everybody immediately.

[Kelley] (30:16 - 30:35)
I'm going to go get one right now. Identify your goals for yourself. And again, this is something that is constantly tweaked.

And as a parent, you're doing this when your child is very young, and it's a good habit. Identify what your goals are, identify when you're ready to walk around in peak sparkly shoes and mask accordingly.

[Julianna] (30:35 - 30:35)
Yep.

[Kelley] (30:36 - 30:37)
So that your mask serves you.

[Julianna] (30:37 - 31:07)
Yeah. So in the short term, I would say you could develop and practice a plan for escaping situations. In the event the mask is slipping or needs to come off.

So, you know, yeah, excuse yourself, you know, that and that that goes for any any kind of high stress environment. When you when you know, when someone's on the spectrum, they often hit that wall. Yeah, yeah, you can have a little thing like, oh, I just need a minute and take a beat haven't built into the day.

[Kelley] (31:07 - 31:25)
Yep. And keep going with developing new ones because as you your challenges increase, maybe your need for a break increase. So you're always looking for a new coping mechanism or way to communicate what your needs are.

Practice new skills and activities as you're dipping your toe into the down, you know, yeah.

[Julianna] (31:25 - 31:30)
And that's like you do that with trusted people so you can get some feedback.

[Kelley] (31:30 - 31:31)
Right.

[Julianna] (31:31 - 31:31)
Yeah.

[Kelley] (31:31 - 31:58)
If you really want to learn to go to the movies because it's a social thing and you're a teenager and everybody's going to the movies, you might not want to start with a three hour feature film with people you don't know very well. Right. Yeah.

I want to start taking in the last half of the movie with a trusted friend, one person and see how you tolerate it. Seeing when you tolerate getting some good information about what you need to go be able to go to the movies to be social.

[Julianna] (31:58 - 32:22)
Yeah. So long term, it's really like we suggest expanding your circle of people who understand and can accommodate you. I mean, the goal would be to not mask.

Yes, everybody masks. But I mean, it would be lovely if we didn't. But so the goal is to be as unmasked as you want to be.

So, you know, find those people where you can do that.

[Kelley] (32:23 - 32:33)
Right. And always practice boundaries and honest dialogue about behavior and what is appropriate and it's not appropriate behavior for communicating your needs.

[Julianna] (32:34 - 32:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

[Kelley] (32:35 - 32:35)
Blocked.

[Julianna] (32:36 - 32:38)
Okay. We've got some of those.

[Kelley] (32:38 - 32:40)
So don't try to mask constantly.

[Julianna] (32:40 - 32:40)
Yeah.

[Kelley] (32:40 - 32:45)
You are not going to white knuckle it through your whole life. You're going to need a break.

[Julianna] (32:45 - 33:06)
Yeah. Don't mask behaviors that are weird or unexpected but harmless. Okay.

I'm coming out. I'm saying I am a member of the Jane Austen Society of North America, the Northern California region. So anyone who didn't know that before they know now gone hardcore Jane Knights.

That's right. That's right. Then that isn't the weirdest thing I do that I hide.

[Kelley] (33:07 - 33:11)
But let's leave it at that right now. Let's leave it at that.

[Julianna] (33:11 - 33:17)
Well, I'll just I'll just sprinkle those in occasionally. I'll confess to some of my unmask occasionally.

[Kelley] (33:19 - 33:27)
This is important. Don't use the term unmasking to behave dangerously or cruelly or to excuse bad behavior.

[Julianna] (33:27 - 33:29)
No, there's no excuse for bad behavior.

[Kelley] (33:29 - 33:38)
And you don't want that for yourself. And you certainly don't want to put the people in your life in the position of defending your dangerous behavior. So don't want to get to that far.

[Julianna] (33:38 - 33:57)
Yeah. And I think we should end with this one. Don't use masking as a crutch to avoid therapy and healthy behavioral management tools.

Just saying like, oh, you know, this is who I am, you know, take it or leave it when you're behaving poorly or, you know, you could be, you could be getting more out of your life.

[Kelley] (33:57 - 33:59)
And you deserve more. You deserve everything you want.

[Julianna] (34:00 - 34:08)
You know, just you don't have to mask but don't use it as a crutch like find other other ways. Yes. So Kelly, why did we want to have this conversation?

[Kelley] (34:09 - 34:54)
Well, we have been seeing masking and the term autistic masking all over social media. It's having a moment in time right now. Actresses are talking about it, making documentaries about it.

People are having it on their podcast. It's the subject of the podcast. So if we're going to be talking about it, and we're going to be acknowledging the use of masks, then we should understand its usefulness and what they are and what they aren't and how it helps us and how, what it doesn't serve us.

Right. Thank you for listening to this episode, something to see here, autism and masking. You can find it and more information on our website.

And please let us know what you think and what you want to hear next. What should we research and what should you tell us that you want to hear.

[Julianna] (34:54 - 35:22)
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Refrigerator Moms. We have a free download that includes a full list of practical to-do's we shared in this episode on our website. Our refrigerator paper, our version of the white paper includes additional what would we do's and background information on everything we talked about today.

Find it on our website, RefrigeratorMoms.com, where you could also sign up for our newsletter. We'd also love to hear your questions. Send them in along with future podcast topics by connecting with us on your favorite social media.

[Kelley] (35:22 - 35:23)
Thanks for listening.

[Julianna] (35:23 - 36:07)
Please note that the information provided in this podcast is for informational purposes only, and it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

The opinions and views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and guests. Any recommendations or suggestions made are based on personal experiences and beliefs and should not be taken as definitive advice. It's important to consult with appropriate professionals for personalized guidance.

A full list of citations and sources for this episode can be found in our refrigerator paper available on our website.