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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Fernando Noodt (00:03.244)
The political spotlight has returned to Owen UK after senior Labour and conservative figures, Don Butler and Sierra Ian Duncan Smith, wrote to the gambling commission expressing deep concern over the appointment of Phil Walker as interim CEO of the National Lottery Operator. Walker was named last week as the successor to Andrea Bidler, who has stepped down from leading Owen UK and its transformation of the National Lottery.
Biddler's abrupt departure has raised an eyebrows at a particularly sensitive moment for Owen UK, because the operator is completing critical technology and retail upgrades while facing increased scrutiny over its performance, including the delivery of returns to good causes. Welcome to iGaming Daily, where we will break down what's going on in the UK. We are back to British soil. I'm Fernando Nott, Media Manager.
for SVC and your host for today for another episode of Ted and Ted Talking Time. A lot of a lot of Ted's of the Ted's this week. Ted Mamier, editor at large for S V C and Ted Ormclay editor for SVC News. Guys, how are you today?
Ted Orme-Claye (01:16.218)
Yeah, pretty good. Thank you, You know, we're just giving the people what they want. We've been inundated with emails and LinkedIn messages and fan mails to our respective officers, haven't we, Ted? Demanding more of our voices on the airwaves. So we hope we've given you all what you asked for.
Ted Menmuir (01:31.185)
Ted Menmuir (01:37.445)
Yeah and just a shout out in honor of Dolly Parton, R.I.P. One of my favorite singers.
Fernando Noodt (01:43.875)
Yeah, Dolly Par Yeah absolutely. I I actually just learned this morning that she was author to the I'll always love you song for the the the Yeah I I I didn't know that was actually Yeah, I really. I didn't know that was i I did I'm learning a lot today. but anyway I wanna learn more about all in UK and what's going on in the UK but first
Ted Menmuir (01:56.938)
Whitney Houston, Bodyguard, yeah. My favourite movie. Yes, yes, yeah.
Ted Orme-Claye (02:00.53)
Hmm.
Ted Orme-Claye (02:07.016)
Ha
Fernando Noodt (02:12.26)
let's thank Optimove, then creator of Positionless Marketing and number one player engagement solution for iGaming and Sports Betting Operators, proud partner of iGaming Daily, soon to be renamed Ted Gaming Daily, probably. But now guys, we're back in the UK where the political spotlight has fallen on Owing UK's appointment of Phil Walker, interim CEO, new interim CEO for Owen UK. So who has rains raised these concerns over this appointment? And what has been said?
Ted Orme-Claye (02:44.136)
I can kick things off here, Fernando. So as you mentioned in the introduction, two MPs, one from Labour, one from the Conservative Party, have raised concern over this. say, I don't know if I'd describe Dawn Butler as a senior figure in the Labour Party, but she is quite a long-standing MP. I believe she's also a big supporter and an ally of Andy Burnham, the new Prime Minister.
And unsurprisingly in this context, I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be familiar with her name in all fairness, because we've discussed her and her opinions on the industry quite a lot lately. She's been very vocal in campaigning for greater powers for local authorities regarding gambling licensing. And I think her comments this morning are really a continuation of that and her...
her quite extensive campaigning in this area. Ian Duncan Smith is, Ted's been around, no offense, Ted, you've been around the block a bit longer than me. think you remember some of Ian Duncan Smith's career as a more senior politician back in the day.
Ted Menmuir (03:52.241)
Yeah, he's about my age,
Ted Orme-Claye (04:01.32)
But yeah, still quite an important voice in the Conservative Party. Like I said, he's held a lot of some senior positions in government in the past. I believe he was leader of the Conservative Party at one point as well, wasn't he, Ted? Yeah, some time ago, back when they were in opposition.
Ted Menmuir (04:13.157)
Yes, for short-stitching,
Ted Menmuir (04:19.567)
Yeah, I mean just
Ted Orme-Claye (04:21.21)
many years ago, but he's also a very vocal campaigner about gambling, which is really a bit of a standout for the Conservative Party, which obviously as a party of their nature would be tends to be a bit more about free markets and light touch regulation and so on. He's commented quite a lot on gambling and societal impact of it and things like that. So definitely one of the more notable like pro.
regulatory reform voices within that party. And yeah, just so I've rambled a bit here, but just to cut it short a little, they've both voiced concerns about the new CEO appointment of Allman UK specifically because of his background in the gambling industry with City Gaming, which is a prominent operator of adult gaming centers, which at the moment are quite a controversial topic in Britain. And he's also previously worked at William Hill and Evoque, stroke 888 Holdings.
So it's his background and experience that they're taking aim at.
Ted Menmuir (05:20.739)
If I can just shed some opinion on the actual news article to me and having just read it, I just think it's just all over the place and also kind of how it's structured. Is this the criticism of the National Lottery? Is it a criticism of High Street Gaming? Is it a criticism of the stewardship of National Lottery under Orwin?
There's so many points to poke at here. But it's again, one of these kind of like another narrative in UK gambling that when you kind of peel out, it's got so many kind of points to poke at. It's just becoming such a kind of common theme.
Ted Orme-Claye (05:57.741)
I'd say really Ted, it's just a case of, it's political saber rattling really isn't it? think it's just, it's a good, these politicians are both very vocal in their dislike of the current state of UK gambling regulation. They've made adult gaming centres a particular target. Recently that's kind of...
Ted Menmuir (06:02.001)
I think that's...
Ted Menmuir (06:10.982)
Yeah.
Ted Orme-Claye (06:16.59)
translated into criticizing betting shops as well and I think this, the appointment of Phil Walker as CEO of Orwin is that I think they're just kind of using it as an opportunity to make a bit of noise really and bring some more attention to their campaigning in this area by
Appealing to something that for you know for a lot of people the National Lottery is obviously it's an institution It's a government institution at that I guess government backed It plays quite a big role in supporting UK cultural projects and so on supporting Olympic athletes training and development So, know, it's one that's quite closely connected to a lot of a lot more of the general public's hearts I think and yeah, so just say it's really it's way it's
It's just an example of some political point scoring, maybe political saber rattling. Yeah.
Fernando Noodt (07:09.249)
Yeah, but let's go back a little bit here because of course, this is all related to the appointment of Phil Walker, but there would be no such appointment if Andrea Bidler had not departed the Allwyn UK. So was it a sh was this a shock? Was it surprising for for Olwyn to lose its CEO at such a sensitive time tape?
Ted Orme-Claye (07:33.743)
Yeah, I'd say so. I certainly wasn't expecting it. Vidler had been in charge of Allwin UK for about three years. Should have overseen that transition period of the company taking on duties as national lottery operator in February 2024, I want to say. Has overseen a pretty significant upgrade to its retail.
activity retail terminals and so on. That was a mandatory requirement of their license with the gambling commission, their 10 year license with the gambling commission. And they also have kind of...
Quite a big milestone this year with the launch of Powerball in the UK, Powerball being the hugely popular multi-state lottery format in the US, can sometimes get jackpots of over a billion. Rolling that out in the UK was quite a big headline grabber. I was more surprised to see a sudden change in leadership after announcing something as high profile as that and whilst in the midst of a continued upgrade. It was also quite surprising to
Ted Menmuir (08:18.256)
Mm-hmm.
Ted Orme-Claye (08:44.426)
transition kind of so early into the license tenure as well. I said earlier, it's a 10-year license, we're only a couple of years into it, so there's still quite some time to go. But I think all winners comment on this saying that they see it as they've completed a number of objectives and they're seeing this leadership transition as the start of the next phase of their upgrade of the national lottery.
They've set themselves quite an ambitious target of doubling returns to good causes I think weekly returns from 30 million to 60 million. Yeah by the end of the tenure and in order to do that obviously requires Quite a few significant undertaking so that they're seeing this leadership leadership changes The next phase to achieving that I think but yeah
Ted Menmuir (09:19.537)
60 million.
Ted Orme-Claye (09:37.672)
Sorry to answer your question from earlier, I was a bit surprised. Ted, what about you? Was this something you were taken aback by a on the day?
Ted Menmuir (09:45.358)
Yeah, and I did mention it, I think in a relevant podcast last week as the news was breaking, Vidlia had been a part of the winning, the team that actually won the concession for Orwin and transferring it over from Camelot. And at the time it had been kind of the underdog in that tender. She is a very kind of high profile figure. And I think the other thing to recognise here is just how big a job the CEO of the National
of the National Lottery of Orwell in the UK essentially is and you know what a profile that carries.
In the kind of wider context is that we're seeing in year two what Orwin is pitching out in how it wants to kind of change the national lottery in terms of its retail engagement, its systems, but also it's kind of partnerships with like mass market retailers, which I think we're to talk about in the second half. But we yet to kind of...
see if that engagement is kind of transferring through to the general public and I think that that is kind of the key engagement here.
Fernando Noodt (10:57.664)
And despite
We can argue that they are using this appointment as a as a political move to to like talk ill about the gambling industry. there's some special emphasis on Walker's previous record as a gambling executive. So why why is that? Why why are they focusing on on his on his previous record?
Ted Orme-Claye (11:26.216)
So there's two, like I mentioned earlier, there's two key roles he's had, I think, that they're taking aim at. First and foremost, it appears to be his most recent position as a board member at Game Nation, Ted. So yeah, City Gaming, City Gaming who run Game Nation, sorry, yeah. Getting my wires slightly crossed there. That, that.
Ted Menmuir (11:44.913)
City games.
Ted Orme-Claye (11:54.441)
relate entirely to the conversation around adult gaming centers. Like I say, they are quite controversial at the moment. Well, have been for some time actually. They're a big focus for a lot of pro gambling reform campaign groups. There's quite a heavy emphasis on, and I do understand this, I think this is quite understandable. There's quite a heavy emphasis on...
how many AGCs are located in often underprivileged neighborhoods and more impoverished areas of the UK. There's been studies showing that it can be quite disproportionate. Campaigners and the likes see this as being an example of predatory behavior. I think the AGC companies would probably argue it's to do with cheaper...
rent and rates in those areas but still that's quite a big source of controversy so I think that the MPs in question are you know they're not seeing that as a positive move that someone with a background in this is then going to be running the the national lottery and it's and it's
it's mandate to invest in British society. I think that's probably the crux of what they're doing. That's the optics of what they're looking for. There is also the fact that he had a senior role at William Hill at a time when the company was issued what is still the largest ever financial penalty on record by the gambling commission of 19 million. So again, I think they're just trying to contrast that with...
the National Lotteries remit as something that invests into British communities and British culture and so on and is meant to have a social benefit. Obviously on the inverse of all of this you could just, I think the simple counter argument is that ultimately lotteries are a gambling product. The National Lottery is a British institution. It's one that has a deep connection to the retail sector and Mr. Walker is a man who has
Ted Orme-Claye (13:55.379)
clearly extensive experience of corporate leadership within retail facing roles both at William Hill and at City. So though, you know, in terms of his qualifications makes a great deal of sense. But yeah, I think the optics of it and the image of it is really what the MPs are. That's what they're trying to focus on. That's the connection they're trying to draw. If that makes sense.
Fernando Noodt (14:21.152)
Yeah, absolutely. And we have presented the context for this situation in the UK with Owen with the fellow worker appointment as interim CEO. But we need to talk about what's next for Owen UK, but we will do so right after this very short commercial break. We'll be right back.
Okay.
Fernando Noodt (14:46.686)
And we are back with more iGaming Daily to continue discussing the appointment of Phil Walker as interim CEO of Owen UK amid a critical time for the nationality for for Owen UK itself. So what will be on Phil Walker's agenda as interim CEO and will he face this scrutiny alone, Ted
Ted Menmuir (15:11.981)
Okay, so taking the hot seat, think Walker must kind of maintain kind of that operational stability of Orwin and this is especially as it's still undertaking.
this generational transformation of the National Lottery's systems and key upgrades. And in this transformation he's helped by Chairman Justin King as a all-in search, a wool search for a permanent CEO. Now, I want to return to what was said in the first segment and...
At the back end of this year, there'll be kind of the first audit of All In UK as the National Lottery Steward. That's going to come in in the autumn. But this kind of coincides and what's actually another factor that's playing in the background is that there are two critical DCMS's reviews that are coming up. One of them is for the funding of arts and culture.
in which the National Lottery allocates 20 % of the budget and one for UK Heritage in which it allocates another 20%. So there is actually a lot riding on Orwin and how it performs to help out kind of these good public causes. other fact, another thing that's relevant here is that
As kind of the baseline target here is that Orwin wants to kind of hit that 40 million pound per week mark that was hit in kind of 2000 to 2021. That was kind of a COVID-induced target, but it believes that he can get to hit that earlier by bringing kind of his new retail concepts into play. It's going to be a tough challenge for them, but I think kind of these initial numbers will kind of showcase to the media and also more important to kind of the politicians
Ted Menmuir (17:08.021)
where the National Hull Lottery is heading to. It's a critical phase for them.
Fernando Noodt (17:13.612)
So it's easy to say that twenty twenty six is gonna be a quite important year for for all stewardship of the of the national lottery. But where will Alwyn actually be focusing its efforts as it seeks to upgrade the national lottery and strengthen its engagement with the public?
Ted Menmuir (17:32.74)
Okay, so this is important to put into context because it just tells you how much of a big undertaking Orwin has taken on. Now, referring back to what they've said about the National Lottery is that Orwin, Orwin International Apparent Group has invested 450 million in technology and systems upgrades.
And it views this as the beginning to kind of changing the mass market strategy of the National Lottery, which it's actually going to change from like its current kind of point of sale, point of sale allocations on desk to a much more kind of consumer level checkout option.
which it believes kind of will change how the lottery tickets and lottery products are purchased in a daily basis. Now, this is a huge undertaking and to our international audience, I think like Ted and I...
would probably agree that the UK is a nation of supermarkets. And it's one where like compared to other European nations, we have so many. So we're not just talking about a partnership with one or two mass retailers, but a system wide upgrade. Now, finally, in terms of like the targets for good causes, Orwin believes that kind of 2024 upgrades lay the foundation to kind of
you know maintain this pledge to deliver 60 million per week by the end of its concession in 2034. However, I think part of the issue here is that its strategy is being challenged by kind of genuine consumer anxieties on the UK, especially relative to cost of living and the impact that it has on people's daily spend. I think that's going to be a big hurdle or a big challenge for all to overcome.
Ted Menmuir (19:29.331)
Ted, would you agree with me or?
Ted Orme-Claye (19:33.403)
Yeah, yeah, in short, yeah. There's, if you look at it, there's just a huge amount for them to consider. As you said, Ted, there's a retail element. The UK is a nation of shopkeepers, as I think the famous quote from the German Kaiser was just before World War I, if you want me to have a bit of a history nerd element there. Which I know because there's quite a good, well,
Ted Menmuir (19:54.939)
You
Ted Orme-Claye (20:00.155)
I know it's still open, was good pub in Leeds City Centre called Nation of Shopkeepers, but anyway, I'll do a bit promotion for them. So yeah, so you've got the retailer and they've been focusing heavily on upgrading that. There was a bit of a teething problem, I think, with that, with some retailers were initially, there were some reports in the UK press that some retailers were struggling with the new systems, but by the looks of it, the whole thing has gone quite smoothly and they've really been singing the praises of it. But they've also been...
appointing roles in the digital side of things. The National Lottery, like lot of other elements of the gaming industry, is becoming increasingly digitized. So that's something to take on board to look at how people interact with it and engage with it and purchase tickets and so on. And ultimately, you know, what it all comes down to is whether they're...
It's how many tickets they're selling because that is obviously what makes them revenue and that's what goes back to good causes. And lottery ticket sales have been struggling, I think, in recent years, going back to before Alwyn's tenure as operator. And ultimately what all this comes down to is the returns to good causes and that is what they will get judged by in 2034 when we have that next tender process. It can be quite political.
Ted Menmuir (20:57.263)
Yeah.
Ted Orme-Claye (21:22.696)
You know, in the run up to the last contest, we saw quite a few conversations about whether or not Camelot had been fully doing its job regarding the Good Causes returns. I think there was cases of Olympians and Paralympians appearing before parliamentary committees to talk about funding and the impact it has on them. So yeah, I know it's bit like stating the obvious, but...
or when Vred needs to make sure it isn't in that situation in 2034, its record is getting criticized and that is ultimately the undertaking it's got in front of it. From what we've seen, it is one that is taken incredibly seriously and is putting a lot of effort into. If you just look at areas like product enhancements and innovation, the Powerball launch I mentioned earlier, that you can't try and...
You can't try and make a bigger sale than that, you, by selling a brand new product to people that could ultimately promise hundreds of millions in jackpot returns. But yeah, as Ted says, it's a very significant task.
Ted Menmuir (22:18.597)
Yeah.
Fernando Noodt (22:31.495)
And as the national lottery steward, do you think Alwing can fund can can or has the capacity to fundamentally change the lottery w in the in terms of broadening its audience while also fulfilling this mandate of raising money for good causes?
Ted Menmuir (22:48.849)
It's the central challenge, isn't it? And it's not one, I think it's throughout every European lottery. It's how do you modernize the lottery? How do you make it appealing to kind of new audiences? And also how do you improve and what, and broaden its kind of point of sale just beyond the ticket purchase point?
Again, I agree with Ted. The ultimate factor here is whether it can hit that target of 60 million per week come 2034. from politically, it will always be judged how you handle, you know, how much it raises for good causes. I think that's what undid Camelot at the last tender. It's again.
They're taking on this contract at a very kind of fragile time for the UK economy. I think that's going to play in a huge factor in how all it performs. And the other, I'd also like to point out that.
Orwin International has previously said that on the short to midterm basis, it expects no profits from the UK National Lottery to contribute nothing to their bottom line. So they are prepared to run this as a loss leader just to get into the UK market. That's how big and important the contract it is for that company. It was always going to be a challenge. I even think that Orwin are kind of surprised at how big it is to deliver this transaction.
transformation.
Fernando Noodt (24:22.41)
And I know one way to track these developments from here is subscribing to all SBC Media newsletters and of course follow iGaming Daily on social media and your preferred podcasting platform. But very briefly because we are already way past our time, how should we track these developments from here and should we expect further political intervention in this in this situation?
Ted Menmuir (24:45.379)
Okay, just to close out, I'd like to tell audiences and to reiterate that Phil Walker appears to be an interim CEO. again, I think that Justin King and the board of Orwin are looking for a high profile chief executive to take over and one that can communicate these changes better, put Orwin in a better spotlight on Orwin as a steward.
And finally, for me personally, it's that you can all win, you know, deliver on that question of revitalizing the lottery for audiences and also can it answer...
these concerns about consumer price points, which I think is factoring not alone into lottery, but I think it's factoring into the whole of the gambling industry. And it is a point of concern. Ted?
Ted Orme-Claye (25:48.032)
I mean on the topic of political intervention, yeah we will 100 % see more examples like this of politicians, probably some of the same ones, making noise about topics like this. I'm one surprised at how quickly the topic of gambling has found itself on the political agenda of the new Labour administration in Downing Street.
Yeah, I think it's just inevitable the conversation is going to continue and calls for further reform They're going to continue as part of that. We're going to see people making noise like this Like the MPs have around them Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah
Ted Menmuir (26:30.031)
More, more angry letters.
Fernando Noodt (26:39.23)
From Dolly Parton to the German Kaiser, this episode covered it all. But the most important, of course, Phil Walker's appointment as interim CEO of the National Lottery Operator Owen UK. We'll see what happened. Hashtag wait and see. of course, subscribe to all the SBC Media Newsletters to keep up to date with this and more. Ted, Ted, thank you very much. Thank you very much as well, Ania McDonald, for producing this episode. I'm Fernando Nott, and to our listeners out there, we'll see you in the next one.