7 GTM problems everyone has, and how to fix them (with Eddie Reynolds)

What if we told you there are 7 simple mistakes companies make over and over again?

From the misalignment between sales and marketing to the mishandling of inbound leads, Eddie Reynolds joins us to shed light on why these mistakes happen, and how to avoid them.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (04:16) - Transition to SaaS Companies Discussion
• (05:10) - The Importance of a True Revenue Leader
• (06:56) - Challenges in Marketing and Sales Alignment
• (16:43) - Inbound Lead Routing Issues
• (23:35) - Inbound vs Outbound Pipeline Expectations
• (24:06) - Challenges with Quota Attainment
• (24:15) - The Role of CFOs in Sales Planning
• (24:36) - Understanding CFOs' Go-to-Market Knowledge
• (25:13) - Importance of Accurate Sales Forecasting
• (32:20) - Outbound Sales Strategies and Challenges
• (37:14) - Aligning Inbound and Outbound Efforts
• (39:55) - Navigating Dirty Data in Sales

***

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Creators & Guests

Host

Mikkel Plaehn

Marketing leader & b2b saas nerd

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

Guest

Eddie Reynolds

CEO and Revenue Operations Strategy Consultant at Union Square Consulting

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

[00:00:00]

Introduction
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Toni: What if I told you There are simple [00:00:03] mistakes that companies make over and over [00:00:06] again, and that you might be making some of them [00:00:09] too. But if they're so simple, why do they [00:00:12] keep happening?

Eddie: the CEO doesn't want to be the [00:00:15] CRO. They don't want to go and tackle these problems.

Eddie: They [00:00:18] tell their leaders, Hey marketing, you go figure it out. Hey sales, you go [00:00:21] figure it out. Even though they don't have the same goals, the same incentives, the [00:00:24] same comp packages, they're rowing in different directions because [00:00:27] that's how they're being incentivized to operate.

Toni: That's [00:00:30] Eddie Reynolds from Union Square Consulting. From bad [00:00:33] lead routing and MQL definitions to having [00:00:36] no true revenue leader, he says there are [00:00:39] seven problems. 10 to 100 million dollar [00:00:42] companies constantly fumble with.

Eddie: Let's just think about [00:00:45] how messed up the standard practice is for routing [00:00:48] inbound leads. Somebody comes to our website. They're [00:00:51] deeply interested. They're our ideal customer. They go to the [00:00:54] website and they click a button that says, request a demo

Eddie: we route [00:00:57] them directly to the most junior inexperienced person in our [00:01:00] entire company, an inbound SDR. We take the most valuable lead we [00:01:03] could possibly get and give it to the person least [00:01:06] experienced and qualified to work that lead.

Toni: In this episode of the [00:01:09] Revenue Formula, we cover what you need to know [00:01:12] to avoid these mistakes and some more. [00:01:15] Enjoy

Toni: Yep. So our printer broke today. [00:01:18] Not that that's the introduction, but [00:01:21] kind of our printer broke today. And so we now need to use a [00:01:24] phone. Oh, that's right. So this is not, we're not [00:01:27] slacking, you know, while you're talking, we're actually kind of looking at our notes on the [00:01:30] phone, just as if you're

Mikkel: gonna look at it anyway, you're just gonna, you know what, [00:01:33] you're gonna sidetrack.

Mikkel: Eddie is gonna say [00:01:36] something, and you're just gonna run with it. And I [00:01:39] then need to salvage this whole operation afterwards. [00:01:42] That's usually what happens

Eddie: I like the look of it. I think it's [00:01:45] cool. Like, you know, you guys have the desk showing, you've [00:01:48] got your notes. I actually just bought a new lens that [00:01:51] the audience probably doesn't care about that goes super wide so I can do the [00:01:54] same thing. I like it.

Toni: Yeah, absolutely. [00:01:57] And, and we also have, you know, Mikkel worked on [00:02:00] introduction today, haven't you? Yeah, I did

Mikkel: my homework and I was [00:02:03] basically, and I said this off air, but Toni has [00:02:06] been really difficult to work with to get this particular [00:02:09] episode in the bag. And what was really pleasant was I got [00:02:12] to chat with Sarah on your team, Eddie, [00:02:15] who is I will gotta say pretty awesome.

Mikkel: We both avoided [00:02:18] jinxing this episode. We talked about, apparently there's [00:02:21] a battle going on. I'm, so I'm European, so I wouldn't know this, but [00:02:24] there's a battle going on in the States between Chicago and New [00:02:27] York around who has the best pizza. [00:02:30] Right.

Eddie: There's no battle.

Mikkel: No, and I was kind of [00:02:33] thinking

Eddie: What battle are we talking about?

Mikkel: [00:02:36] so which side are you on, Eddie?

Eddie: I'm on the [00:02:39] side that likes real pizza, not bread soup, [00:02:42] like bread bowl soup.

Mikkel: [00:02:45] So that's a really nice way of not answering. Yes. [00:02:48] Like, is it Chicago or New York? Yeah. Okay. [00:02:51] Okay. I didn't get that hint. So it's just for those European listeners. Okay. Okay. [00:02:54] Hint.

Toni: Hint.

Eddie: a very, very great skit on this where he [00:02:57] just goes off on Chicago pizza because it is [00:03:00] basically a bread bowl filled with tomato sauce. [00:03:03] It's disgusting. And I grew up near Chicago. [00:03:06] It's a, yeah, I mean, yeah, I grew [00:03:09] up near Chicago, like, but I don't know. I [00:03:12] spent the last 13 years in New York and New York pizza's great.

Eddie: I also [00:03:15] spent a lot of time in Italy, in Naples [00:03:18] specifically. I like pizza.

Toni: Yeah. Why, why, why[00:03:21]

Eddie: of pizza. But not Chicago deep dish pizza. It's not [00:03:24] pizza.

Toni: Why did you spend time in Italy? Like, [00:03:27] just vacationing, or what did you do?

Eddie: I, I did a [00:03:30] gap year, which I know is a very un American thing to do. [00:03:33] And I spent a year in in Europe, four [00:03:36] months in France, seven, eight months in Italy, a few months [00:03:39] backpacking around. One of my closest friends that I met from [00:03:42] there, who now lives in Colorado near me, where I live is from [00:03:45] Denmark.

Eddie: Got to go see like Hamlet castle and everything. [00:03:48] Had some good times, spent a lot of time in Germany. Love Germany.[00:03:51]

Toni: What a, what a cultured American. You know, I like, I like this kiddy guy already. He even [00:03:54] has a passport.

Mikkel: [00:03:57] And by the way, I also just gotta say, if [00:04:00] you're listening and working with Eddie, and you're based out of [00:04:03] Chicago, this is no reason to now go and cancel the [00:04:06] engagement. It's just not. Don't fight over pizza.

Mikkel: It's great. [00:04:09] But I just want to latch on to one thing you said, which is like, [00:04:12] it's kind of a bread soup, right? And we're gonna [00:04:15] now transition. We're still with the pizza.

Transition to SaaS Companies Discussion
---

Mikkel: We're not going to [00:04:18] transition into what we're going to talk about, which is, All, [00:04:21] all three of us here, we've talked and worked at probably [00:04:24] SaaS companies, B2B.

Mikkel: There's at [00:04:27] least a few cases where you look at how things are being run, and you think about [00:04:30] that kind of concept of a, it's just a big [00:04:33] ball of soup and it's all a mess. [00:04:36] Right? Wow. That's kind of what we're gonna dig into or at least [00:04:39] sink our teeth into today. We're gonna talk a bit [00:04:42] about the, basically the challenges we've seen especially [00:04:45] companies between 10, 10, and a hundred million ai.[00:04:48]

Mikkel: Kind of make over and over again. Yes. And this was kind of [00:04:51] inspired by the LinkedIn post you did. We'll drop it in the show notes [00:04:54] for the listeners to check out. And I'm kind of hoping maybe [00:04:57] you want to kick us off with like, what is the first thing [00:05:00] that comes to mind? One of the biggest mistakes some of these companies [00:05:03] make, Eddie.

Eddie: Ooh, the biggest mistake. [00:05:06] I dunno which one is the biggest one. Gimme a moment to think about [00:05:09] this.

The Importance of a True Revenue Leader
---

Eddie: Alright, I'm gonna go with the last one on my [00:05:12] list, which is no true revenue leader. And [00:05:15] so I'll also expand on this when we talk about companies with 10 [00:05:18] to a hundred million dollars in revenue. I'm drawing [00:05:21] that line because below $10 million in revenue.

Eddie: You [00:05:24] might be able to get away without having all of this stuff in [00:05:27] place. Maybe you've got a VP of sales and you're just going [00:05:30] after new business and you're crushing it and marketing isn't [00:05:33] perfect yet and CS isn't perfect yet. You're making it [00:05:36] work. You get past the 10 million, especially into 20 or [00:05:39] 30, and this is where stuff starts to really, really fall apart.[00:05:42]

Eddie: By the time you get to a hundred million, hopefully you've worked this out. [00:05:45] But we've seen a lot of companies that are north of a hundred million, north of a billion [00:05:48] that still have these problems. So I'll clarify [00:05:51] that. But there's no true revenue leader is a real thing because the [00:05:54] issue is, is when you have a sales leader that's focused on sales and a [00:05:57] marketing leader focused on marketing and CS leader focused on retention and growth.[00:06:00]

Eddie: By definition, they're operating in their own [00:06:03] silos and they're going to see the world differently. They oftentimes have different [00:06:06] definitions of things, different data. Different [00:06:09] systems. And so when we ask a simple question, like how [00:06:12] are leads converting into revenue, the sales leader has one [00:06:15] answer. The marketing leader has another.

Eddie: If you don't have a [00:06:18] true revenue leader in place, then what that means is, is that [00:06:21] you as the CEO are the CRO. [00:06:24] You are now the CRO, whether you like it or not. [00:06:27] And the unfortunate reality that we have seen with a lot of the work that we've [00:06:30] done is we're trying to fix these problems. And the [00:06:33] CEO doesn't want to be the CRO.

Eddie: They don't want to [00:06:36] go and tackle these problems. They don't want to have a [00:06:39] conversation about how leads make it through the sales funnel. They [00:06:42] tell their leaders, Hey, marketing, you go figure it out. Hey, sales, you go [00:06:45] figure it out. Even though they don't have the same goals, the same incentives, the [00:06:48] same comp packages, they're rowing in different directions because [00:06:51] that's how they're being incentivized to operate.[00:06:54]

Toni: So I think this is a, this is a really good one.

Challenges in Marketing and Sales Alignment
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Toni: And what, [00:06:57] what is, and you know, let's, let's kind of riff on this a little bit, because I [00:07:00] think there's more and more like a controversial take [00:07:03] kind of happening. So number one, to your point, you would probably say like, [00:07:06] folks, you need a CRO and you know, we [00:07:09] can even debate what a CRO is, right?

Toni: And kind of, even for [00:07:12] the ones that have a CRO, is that actually what you're talking [00:07:15] about when you say a true revenue leader, right? Then the next thing [00:07:18] is like, people are saying, well, Those guys are not [00:07:21] figuring this out anyway. So why do we need to have a CRO to [00:07:24] begin with? And let's just, you know, try and kind of have the CFO [00:07:27] kind of run this thing somehow, and [00:07:30] just, you know, upskill his go to market skills a little bit [00:07:33] and riffing on top of all of that.

Toni: So let's kind of [00:07:36] see where we were going with this here, because thanks for the [00:07:39] wonderful, you know, script that we want to talk about today, Mikkel. I think it's [00:07:42] all, you know, out of the window, but Mikkel [00:07:45] and I actually yesterday were kind of discussing, well. [00:07:48] You know, we understand it's really difficult to have the [00:07:51] CRO and the right person in there.

Toni: We understand that they're being [00:07:54] thrown out every 12 months anyway. And therefore, you know, maybe it [00:07:57] makes even continuity sense to have the CFO, you [00:08:00] know, overseeing some of this, but basically

Eddie: like the [00:08:03] CFO a lot, by the way.

Toni: the, the, so let me, let [00:08:06] me finish my long winded point here. It'll be a

Mikkel: couple of [00:08:09] minutes. Yeah,

Toni: we'll, we'll, we'll fix it in post, but basically the [00:08:12] thinking was, could you actually [00:08:15] have Someone that ticks some of those revenue leader [00:08:18] boxes that we're all thinking about, but not [00:08:21] actually owning each of these departments.

Toni: And I don't want to make [00:08:24] like a awkward pitch for revenue operations, but [00:08:27] could you be a successful CRO? You know, think [00:08:30] about it like this, but without actually being [00:08:33] this, you know, the boss, the manager of VP marketing, [00:08:36] VP sales, VP CS, right. Can you be successful in [00:08:39] aligning the go to market without necessarily leading all of those [00:08:42] people?

Toni: And, and, you know, would love to have your [00:08:45] take on this, Eddie.

Eddie: Let me pose a simple question. [00:08:48] How are you measuring, judging, and incentivizing [00:08:51] marketing? If you hire a marketing leader and [00:08:54] you say your number one job is to generate more MQLs, [00:08:57] this is how you're going to get your bonus. This is how you're going to, [00:09:00] you know, get recognition in the company. This is how you're going to [00:09:03] maintain your job security.

Eddie: What [00:09:06] do you do with that?

Toni: Well, you know, [00:09:09] you'll probably get a lot of webinar leads that I was going to say, I'm going to get

Mikkel: [00:09:12] rich in that job.

Toni: And well, you know, you know, [00:09:15] even that requires skill Mikkel, I'm sorry. But then the other thing is, you [00:09:18] know, you'll have all of those MQL definition conversations, all of [00:09:21] that jazz.

Toni: But, you know, the, you don't have the conversation of, [00:09:24] well, which of those is actually generating cash, right? Because that is now [00:09:27] suddenly someone else's problem, right? You have this throwing [00:09:30] this over the wall kind of sensation. I guess that's also kind of what [00:09:33] you're, what you're thinking about here.

Toni: Yeah.

Eddie: It is. And like, I don't have a [00:09:36] CMO. I have a marketing manager and she's [00:09:39] wonderful. And I have created her comp plan and [00:09:42] I split it two ways. One is [00:09:45] inbound revenue generated. And the other is [00:09:48] total revenue generated, regardless of where it comes [00:09:51] from. And so suddenly we have this problem ourselves [00:09:54] where we have a strong definition of MQLs for us.

Eddie: And [00:09:57] MQL is you raise your hand and you asked it to speak to sales. [00:10:00] That's it. Like it's a pretty strict definition. And unfortunately for [00:10:03] us, even that's not working. We're not seeing high enough conversion [00:10:06] rates. And what's great about this by incentivizing my [00:10:09] marketing manager correctly, she's rolling up her sleeves.

Eddie: She's like digging into [00:10:12] this. How do we solve for this problem? Because there is nothing [00:10:15] in her comp plan that says anything about generating a [00:10:18] certain number of MQLs. And so she's sitting here working [00:10:21] alongside me going, how do we get more leads from the [00:10:24] right companies that are more likely to convert for [00:10:27] us?

Toni: I think that always seems like the right fix, [00:10:30] right?

Toni: Kind of let's just have the marketing leader be incentivized by a [00:10:33] specific revenue number. But I can also 100 percent [00:10:36] see that, well, you know, those, those [00:10:39] sales bozos, they're just not giving them, you know, [00:10:42] all and kind of they, they are kind of screwing up the conversion. I, I, [00:10:45] you know, I can't get fired because of my VP of [00:10:48] sales or the VP of sales is not doing his or her job, right?

Toni: [00:10:51] So I think in some of those, you know, as you grow up and you will have [00:10:54] more detailed kind of, you know, goals, I think some of [00:10:57] this sometimes breaks. But I then sometimes actually think, and [00:11:00] this is where this idea of like, well, And again, it doesn't need [00:11:03] to be necessarily be revenue operations, but someone actually being in [00:11:06] charge of trying to kind of get those silos together, [00:11:09] you probably could live with you know, an abstraction and say [00:11:12] like, well, you're going to get incentivized on hand raised [00:11:15] MQLs.

Toni: And then there's maybe another kind of piece of [00:11:18] incentivization coming as well, but basically kind of saying like, there's [00:11:21] no, there's no fluffiness in the MQL [00:11:24] definition. You know, we need to have. You know, demo requests. This [00:11:27] is what we need to get from you and maybe kind of build a like a [00:11:30] target set around that potentially.

Eddie: Can I go on a little bit of a [00:11:33] rant here?

Toni: Well, I'm renting the [00:11:36] whole time. So yeah, you're totally open. Yeah, of course.

Eddie: Alright, [00:11:39] so for context, I've spent My entire [00:11:42] career, in fact, more than my entire career in sales. I paid my way through [00:11:45] college and commissioned sales. So I'm like going on like [00:11:48] 25 years. So I don't know. I can't count. Anyway, I've been [00:11:51] in sales a long time. I still sell every single day. [00:11:54] There's this concept that marketing is like, we don't have [00:11:57] control.

Eddie: I hate to break this to anybody [00:12:00] listening. That's in marketing. I don't have control either. [00:12:03] I don't have the ability to put a gun to somebody's head to force them to sign a [00:12:06] contract. We are all influencing revenue. [00:12:09] We do not have that. [00:12:12] So if you're generating leads and you're handing them to the sales team and they're [00:12:15] not following up with them, there's a number of problems [00:12:18] around that.

Eddie: But this idea that like, I need to stop at [00:12:21] the lead because I don't have control is something I have a [00:12:24] huge point of contention with.

Mikkel: Yeah. Yeah. I was just going [00:12:27] to say, if you, you know, the level of control is actually [00:12:30] pretty big if you are in the marketing department, what I would do is usually [00:12:33] is I would look at who is getting my own bound ups. And I would get [00:12:36] pissed if it went to the wrong person because I knew that person had a [00:12:39] lower win rate, right?

Mikkel: So even there you have at least [00:12:42] influence. You don't necessarily have the control, but you do have influence at [00:12:45] least internally over some of the processes.

Eddie: Well, and if I [00:12:48] could just go like a step further on this for anybody listening that's in [00:12:51] marketing, I should expand on what I mean when I say we don't have [00:12:54] control. In the modern B2B buying cycle, we're seeing 10 or 15 [00:12:57] different people that are influencing the decision, [00:13:00] most of whom we never have the opportunity to even speak [00:13:03] with.

Eddie: So this concept of control, like those folks might [00:13:06] see our marketing content. They're familiar with our brand or they're [00:13:09] not. They are getting feedback in these [00:13:12] private Slack channels from our customers, from people that [00:13:15] have had interactions with our company. There are so many [00:13:18] things influencing these decisions.

Eddie: There's what's happening in the [00:13:21] economy, there's interest rates, et cetera. So this [00:13:24] idea that like an account executive, they just. Do everything right. They can [00:13:27] close the deal is just a fallacy [00:13:30] and marketing has all this incredible influence over the [00:13:33] entire cycle from the very first impression, all the way to [00:13:36] winning a customer, to retaining and growing a customer.[00:13:39]

Eddie: I don't know if I want to say just as much as sales, maybe more than sales, maybe [00:13:42] less. It depends, but we're all in this like team effort together [00:13:45] and no one person has ultimate control over the [00:13:48] outcome.

Toni: And to kind of tie the knot, you know, [00:13:51] you know, fully here or kind of complete the [00:13:54] loop. I mean, this, this would be solved by having a revenue [00:13:57] leader, right? Kind of that, that's a little bit also kind of your, your hypothesis you're [00:14:00] saying. This is one of the symptoms that [00:14:03] you probably would be seeing if you, if you don't have, [00:14:06] let's call that person a CRO.

Eddie: That's exactly it. [00:14:09] So CRO, CFO, CEO, [00:14:12] somebody with the power. And the [00:14:15] time and the interest in solving this problem. So let's, let's [00:14:18] paint a classic example. We're having this [00:14:21] conversation with either the head of marketing or the head [00:14:24] of sales. And they're saying, this is this, this is the problem. [00:14:27] Leads are being handed over to sales and they're not being followed [00:14:30] up on because sales doesn't believe that these leads are [00:14:33] valuable.

Eddie: Okay. Well, how would we solve for that? Well, [00:14:36] first we need to figure out. Are these leads worth [00:14:39] following up on? Sales has their opinion. Marketing has their [00:14:42] opinion. How can we objectively look at this? What is it that [00:14:45] reps are doing if they're not calling these inbound leads? [00:14:48] Well, they should be doing outbound prospecting.

Eddie: And I'm a [00:14:51] huge fan of an account based approach, and we can get into that if you [00:14:54] want. But we're, like, comparing, like, okay, We're paying [00:14:57] sales reps to pick up the phone and call people, or send emails, or LinkedIn [00:15:00] DMs, or whatever. But we're paying them to get in [00:15:03] front of people that do not explicitly want to speak with them.[00:15:06]

Eddie: Who should they be calling? How are [00:15:09] these leads converting? And so when marketing is saying, well, none of [00:15:12] the sales people want to call our leads, and we look at it, and we [00:15:15] say, well, and I was on a call this morning, going over this data with one [00:15:18] of our customers, 0. 4 percent of these [00:15:21] leads are converting into revenue.

Eddie: 0. 4%. [00:15:24] This is why they don't want to call them. However, how do we [00:15:27] solve for this? Well, which of these leads are [00:15:30] converting? If we slice these in different buckets, maybe, [00:15:33] you know, and I'm not talking about high intent leads where people request a [00:15:36] demo. I'm talking about the people that don't want to talk to sales.

Eddie: But maybe [00:15:39] they've hit the pricing page three times in the last, you know, [00:15:42] And that shoots them to the top of the list. And now we [00:15:45] look at that bucket of leads and we find, Oh wow, [00:15:48] like 5%, 10 percent of them convert to revenue. [00:15:51] These are the lead sales people should be calling. And this other [00:15:54] stuff is junk.

Eddie: This other stuff should not be going to sales at [00:15:57] all. How do you solve for that if [00:16:00] I am Working directly with the VP of sales who [00:16:03] doesn't have any control or oversight over this. [00:16:06] Now, if the CFO has the ability to come in and say, Hey, look, like this is how we're going [00:16:09] to fix this problem. Great. You know, if the CFO [00:16:12] has these like, you know, go to market shops, so to speak, and [00:16:15] they're ultimately the ones making the financial decisions and they're saying, I'm not paying [00:16:18] sales reps to call down on leads that convert at 0.

Eddie: [00:16:21] 4%, then great. We can solve that problem together.

Mikkel: Yeah, I think [00:16:24] generally speaking, there is a lot of power in just, you know, we've talked [00:16:27] about unblending even the numbers, which is kind of what you're talking to [00:16:30] here. And I think, you know, we've indirectly also talked [00:16:33] about the, the lead quality. So maybe we don't go too deep there, but that's [00:16:36] especially also an area where you do want to pay attention to [00:16:39] where are your money basically being spent and [00:16:42] what are they yielding, right?

Inbound Lead Routing Issues
---

Mikkel: So, I think [00:16:45] another another interesting piece that, that you kind of noted [00:16:48] down, especially in the sales realm, it's [00:16:51] the who gets what leads. You kind of mentioned this a little bit. [00:16:54] Yeah. And then also the compensation, [00:16:57] which we kind of talked about. That's also another kind of, [00:17:00] gosh, we get a lot of questions about comp plans even, right?

Mikkel: [00:17:03] So should we kind of open the door to that one? I, I would

Toni: love to talk [00:17:06] about the routing thing actually. I think it's super easy to [00:17:09] take almost like a, a completely different perspective on this, by [00:17:12] the way. So love to, love to hear what you, what you think [00:17:15] about there, Eddie.

Eddie: Well, let's just think about how [00:17:18] messed up the standard practice is for routing inbound [00:17:21] leads, right? So somebody comes to our [00:17:24] website. They're deeply interested. They're our ideal [00:17:27] customer. They're the right buyer persona. We've got a [00:17:30] CXO in our perfect customer account [00:17:33] and they go to the website and they click a button that says request a [00:17:36] demo.

Eddie: And we take that person. [00:17:39] And we route them directly to the most junior inexperienced [00:17:42] person in our entire company and inbound SDR, because this [00:17:45] is the learning ground where people cut their [00:17:48] teeth in sales and we take the most valuable lead we could [00:17:51] possibly get and give it to the person least [00:17:54] experienced and qualified to work that lead.[00:17:57]

Toni: Yes. And so this is so funny. I think very [00:18:00] few people talk about it like this and think about it like [00:18:03] that. So we actually, and this is [00:18:06] 10 years ago or something like this, like, you know, Falcon times. [00:18:09] It's like back in the day. It's always, always those stories. [00:18:12] But we had exactly that conversation. We were kind of saying like, [00:18:15] wait a minute, we're spending like 4 million a [00:18:18] year on marketing.

Toni: And we're leveraging all of [00:18:21] that spend. through the most junior people we [00:18:24] can find. I think that's really silly actually. And what [00:18:27] we did instead, we created like you know, it [00:18:30] was a career path to go from outbound SDR [00:18:33] To become an inbound SDR, right? And because it's, it's [00:18:36] so difficult, I mean, you probably going to talk about, well, it should go to the [00:18:39] AEs and let's have that conversation, but back then, you know, some of [00:18:42] those routing tools kind of didn't exist and you needed to have [00:18:45] that, you know, quick check in call basically, and we [00:18:48] gave it to someone that at least had been like six or [00:18:51] nine months in, in the sales role in the company and the [00:18:54] reason why they took it, despite this being a little bit like a dead [00:18:57] end kind of role, but the reason why they took it, it's just [00:19:00] a, you know, The quality of life is so much higher in that role [00:19:03] compared to like a hardcore outbound role, right?

Toni: So we, we [00:19:06] had actually the best people from the SDR team that didn't want to become [00:19:09] AEs actually apply for the, we call this the [00:19:12] marketing development rep role that was taking, you know, working through [00:19:15] those inbounds.

Eddie: I love that. My only point of contention is, [00:19:18] is that oftentimes people come into sales and into [00:19:21] an organization starting in the inbound SDR role, [00:19:24] but if you're telling me that you've got these experienced people that really like [00:19:27] taking inbound leads, it's great. And there's an issue with this, right? [00:19:30] I would vote for, let's send this to the most experienced [00:19:33] AE possible.

Eddie: But there is a problem, and it depends on what [00:19:36] kind of lead we're talking about. Lead response time [00:19:39] is Immensely important. If you [00:19:42] wait a half an hour to respond to somebody a half an hour, I'm not [00:19:45] talking two or three days, which is unfortunately very common, or [00:19:48] two or three hours, just a half an hour.

Eddie: Your chance of [00:19:51] converting that lead goes down exponentially from getting back to [00:19:54] them within 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes. And so there is this [00:19:57] balancing act of like, well, this person maybe just filled out [00:20:00] a form or requested some information. They're most likely. [00:20:03] Blocking a half an hour or so before their next call to [00:20:06] go explore you and a number of your direct competitors.

Eddie: And [00:20:09] the first person that gets back to them will book a meeting. [00:20:12] And most of the time we'll win that deal, no matter what your product [00:20:15] is or what you do.

Toni: And I think kind of, so [00:20:18] where's this coming from? Let's send it, let's send it to the, to the [00:20:21] most junior reps. I think Salesforce came up with [00:20:24] that. At least kind of everyone is referencing, Hey, I think this is how [00:20:27] Salesforce is doing. I think we should do it like this as well. Is that, I mean, [00:20:30] you were at Salesforce.

Toni: Is that actually true? What, what, what do you think about this?[00:20:33]

Eddie: Probably. I mean, I didn't have a [00:20:36] strong interaction with our inbound SDRs. They were literally [00:20:39] across the country, but that's my perception. You call the [00:20:42] 800 number, whatever got an inbound rep. [00:20:45] And that person's job was just [00:20:48] qualifying the deal and seeing if it was worth our time. I [00:20:51] will say though, like, yeah, I [00:20:54] mean, when I was at Salesforce, one of the biggest complaints we [00:20:57] got consistently from customers was around this [00:21:00] idea that they're handed off from one person to the next, to the next, and the [00:21:03] AE is rotated around.

Eddie: And so, you [00:21:06] know, they would go from like the inbound SDR, qualifying it, [00:21:09] then I would re qualify it as an AE, then I bring my [00:21:12] SE in, and then they would re qualify it again, and this person is [00:21:15] just like, are you kidding me? Like, when can I see the effing demo?

Toni: Yeah. [00:21:18] And I mean, so I think this [00:21:21] is kind of a playbook that has been copied a lot, by the And [00:21:24] I'm not, I'm not quite sure. If we have figured [00:21:27] out the solution to this, I think there's a new hope [00:21:30] that AI will kind of solve this by way of [00:21:33] helping this rep to go full cycle from, you know, [00:21:36] throughout the, basically the full customer journey, also being a CSM, [00:21:39] but let's see if we actually going to get there.

Toni: But since we are on the, on [00:21:42] the,

Eddie: Well, wait, can I tell you a story on this

Toni: Yeah, of course.[00:21:45]

Eddie: Cause I think this is hilarious. So I [00:21:48] think that I bought into this sort of like efficiency concept for [00:21:51] a brief period of time. And I was trying to figure out [00:21:54] how do I do an inbound qualification call in 15 [00:21:57] minutes, right? And I'm like, I need to go and I need to talk [00:22:00] to this person to figure out who the decision maker is and what their budget is and [00:22:03] authority and need.

Eddie: And I need to do it all in 15 minutes and I need to jump off the phone. [00:22:06] And I'm just going to like, Dead this thing out if it's not qualified and [00:22:09] move on because I am ruthless and I'm gonna like crush my [00:22:12] quota, right? And I remember talking to my boss about [00:22:15] this and he just looked at me like I was the dumbest person he's ever [00:22:18] met.

Eddie: And he's like, Eddie, you're getting like maybe two inbound leads a [00:22:21] month if you're lucky. Why are you so obsessed with making this an [00:22:24] efficient process?

Toni: Yes, yes. [00:22:27] So I think this is a whole different way to look at this, by the [00:22:30] way. But since we are kind of on the topic of [00:22:33] AEs and kind of they're working through this, what's your, [00:22:36] I mean, the topic of AEs is so funny, they're [00:22:39] like a thousand things, but from your perspective, you know, for companies, [00:22:42] 10 to a hundred million, what are they getting wrong [00:22:45] most, most of the time in actually setting up a good [00:22:48] AE team or making this successful?

Eddie: Oh, [00:22:51] I think it's just like, there's a lot of steps skipped. I mean, so [00:22:54] like, you know, the common problems are is, you know, you want [00:22:57] to go build a sales team and you go and say like, let's go hire [00:23:00] the top rep from the company that looks like us, the sales [00:23:03] force of the world or whatever, the person that crushed their [00:23:06] quota.

Eddie: And, you know, first and foremost, like we don't [00:23:09] have any real interview process where we [00:23:12] reverse engineer the success criteria for the role. And we [00:23:15] really look for what that, Success Criteria is in a [00:23:18] rep instead. We're just poaching people from Salesforce because they're [00:23:21] going to be great. Cause they, they bring a playbook, right?

Eddie: As if [00:23:24] they invented the playbook while they worked at Salesforce. So [00:23:27] that's part of it. The other part is like, I think it's just a lack [00:23:30] of planning. So we, we don't do a capacity [00:23:33] plan, so we don't really know, like. Okay.

Inbound vs Outbound Pipeline Expectations
---

Eddie: [00:23:36] How much pipeline can we really expect to come from inbound [00:23:39] and how much pipeline needs to come from outbound?

Eddie: And what does that [00:23:42] look like? How much time in the day does it take to [00:23:45] work those inbound leads to to prospect those [00:23:48] outbound leads to generate the pipeline that we need to [00:23:51] get the close rate, the ASP, the sales cycle, et cetera, to hit [00:23:54] quota. And so then we create these quotas and these targets out of [00:23:57] thin air, because like our investor told us we had to triple, [00:24:00] triple, double, double, whatever.

Eddie: And we [00:24:03] hire all these AEs and we've got like. We see this with the data across [00:24:06] the market.

Challenges with Quota Attainment
---

Eddie: Like what is quota attainment right now? Like 45 [00:24:09] percent across the industry. It's, it's awful.

Toni: [00:24:12] digging deeper into this, actually, where do you think this is [00:24:15] coming from?

The Role of CFOs in Sales Planning
---

Toni: is this a, is this a finance thing? It's so easy [00:24:18] to blame the finance folks with this one, by the way. But like, do you [00:24:21] believe this is a CFO? Okay. We need to [00:24:24] add 10 million, you know, we have you know, 1 million [00:24:27] per head.

Toni: So we need to add 10, 10 folks. Do you [00:24:30] think that this is where this is coming from?

Eddie: I don't know. It's really [00:24:33] interesting. Like, yeah, it's really easy to like shit all over the CFO, right? [00:24:36]

Understanding CFOs' Go-to-Market Knowledge
---

Eddie: Um, CFOs really [00:24:39] vary. And for background, the first 10 years of my career that I spent in [00:24:42] sales, I spent in finance, I studied finance in college. Like [00:24:45] I like finance a lot. And I like [00:24:48] CFOs, but they really vary in their go to market understanding.

Eddie: Some [00:24:51] CFOs look at this and they say, Like, Hey, [00:24:54] like forecast out our revenue. And they're like, okay, well, like [00:24:57] 12 months ago this month, we did so much revenue, [00:25:00] so I'm going to forecast. We're going to do this much revenue this month. And there's [00:25:03] other CFOs that are looking all the way down to what is, [00:25:06] how many leads do we generate?

Eddie: What is our lead conversion rate? They're [00:25:09] doing weighted forecast. They're working with their sales [00:25:12] leaders to do a ground up forecast.

Importance of Accurate Sales Forecasting
---

Eddie: And what I was talking [00:25:15] about with this planning is, are we doing bottoms up [00:25:18] planning? Do we know exactly how many [00:25:21] leads we can generate, or are we saying, well, 5 reps closed [00:25:24] this much last year, so 10 reps should close twice that much?[00:25:27]

Eddie: Okay, well, did those 5 reps close everything [00:25:30] by self sourcing their pipeline by doing outbound prospecting calls? [00:25:33] And do we have twice as many people to call this year? [00:25:36] Okay, great! If not, if those 5 reps like, [00:25:39] crushed their quote off purely inbound leads, then what's your plan to double the [00:25:42] number of inbound leads?

Toni: What, what, what I just don't [00:25:45] believe. So let's just think about how's this going to [00:25:48] play out. How's this going to get solved? What I have a [00:25:51] hard time believing is that [00:25:54] the CFOs and you're right. Some of them are absolutely there. [00:25:57] But I have a hard time believing that all the CFOs will [00:26:00] kind of wake up and suddenly get it and do this [00:26:03] whole planning piece differently.

Toni: But also at the same [00:26:06] time you know, for you, do you think this is a, [00:26:09] those are go to market chops that need to be introduced by [00:26:12] the CRO or by, by revenue operations or, you know, who, [00:26:15] who should be the responsible party to make [00:26:18] sure that this actually ends up not being a problem in the [00:26:21] organization?

Eddie: Well, I mean The buck stops [00:26:24] with the CEO at the end of the day, like, but [00:26:27] also I think it depends. I mean, you know, I've worked with a number of [00:26:30] CFOs and their last job, they were an investment banker. [00:26:33] It's like, great, like super smart guy. I went to Harvard, worked at Goldman. [00:26:36] Great. Okay. But at what point in your career [00:26:39] did you go deep in the weeds and understanding like your lead [00:26:42] generation and conversion rates?

Eddie: Like, I don't think Goldman teaches that in [00:26:45] their onboarding program and their analyst program [00:26:48] even if you covered technology. So. [00:26:51] I think that like it, there are CFOs with [00:26:54] varying degrees of experience and exposure to this. I did [00:26:57] a couple of sessions with Ben, the [00:27:00] SaaS CFO, Ben Murray, and like, he gets the stuff, you know?

Eddie: We [00:27:03] can't shit all over every CFO. It just varies a lot.[00:27:06]

Toni: Yeah. I, so I think this [00:27:09] is, this is like one of those big [00:27:12] things, I think where, where CFOs are still [00:27:15] lacking, honestly. Because the thing is, [00:27:18] they obviously get the spreadsheet right and all the accounting [00:27:21] stuff and and they know how to structure a round and so [00:27:24] forth. But, you know, when you think about it, [00:27:27] and we had the same conversation with Ben actually as well, when [00:27:30] you think about it.

Toni: Well, in your P& L, where's [00:27:33] most of the money going? Where's most of the money actually going? [00:27:36] And it's going to end up being in your sales and marketing, it's going to be in, [00:27:39] you know, Cost of Goods Sold, right? CS. And do [00:27:42] you actually have a good grasp of what's going on there? [00:27:45] And the answer is, for many CFOs, is kind of [00:27:48] no.

Toni: Like they don't actually know. And I think [00:27:51] to a degree, you know, what's happening in product development, [00:27:54] it's really difficult to kind of grasp that. So I [00:27:57] understand that, that this is, this is not that easy, but you [00:28:00] would think that some of the sales and marketing [00:28:03] math that all of us kind of extremely fluent in, [00:28:06] That they would start to understand this thing and kind of actually see how [00:28:09] sales and marketing should work and needs to work.

Toni: And, you know, basically [00:28:12] then, you know, help the company be more successful. So I just, [00:28:15] I just have a hard time seeing this happening actually. So, and this is [00:28:18] where I would,

Eddie: I'm going to shamelessly plug your product here. [00:28:21] Okay. Because they would understand it if you showed it [00:28:24] to them, but there's two problems. Number one, in [00:28:27] Salesforce, it's very difficult to visualize this data. It's [00:28:30] very difficult to see, like we generated this many leads [00:28:33] over this period of time.

Eddie: It either hit target or it didn't. It [00:28:36] converted into pipeline in this way. The close rate was this, the [00:28:39] sales cycle is this. You can spend an incredible amount [00:28:42] of time, which I've personally done doing, and we've done for clients like [00:28:45] Building all this stuff in these dashboards and then you still don't have like a [00:28:48] really clear picture and then that's the [00:28:51] technology and data piece.

Eddie: But then there's also this problem of [00:28:54] definitions when we don't have a definition for a [00:28:57] marketing lead, when we don't have a clear definition for what is a [00:29:00] qualified sales opportunity and our team isn't [00:29:03] following that definition, then we go and we, We pull up these reports and we [00:29:06] go, wow, like, so our close rate's 14%.

Eddie: I guess our [00:29:09] salespeople need to sell better. It's like 14 percent doesn't mean [00:29:12] anything. Like Bob over here takes every person he talks to [00:29:15] and throws it in the pipeline. And Jane over here waits until like the [00:29:18] thing's ready to close before she does it, because she doesn't want to, you know, [00:29:21] get chastised for losing a deal.

Eddie: And so her close rate's [00:29:24] 85%. By the way, these are real numbers. I was looking at a couple of days [00:29:27] ago. Her close rate. is 85 percent and [00:29:30] Bob's is 14%. I'm literally looking at customer data like six days [00:29:33] ago and seeing this. And it's like, okay, that's [00:29:36] not like Jane is not six [00:29:39] times better of a sales rep than Bob.

Eddie: This is a [00:29:42] function of a lack of process.

Toni: Would [00:29:45] you, so, and I'm just kind of pulling on this thread here [00:29:48] a little bit. Would you say that some of the issues for a [00:29:51] CFO to even. they would get this. [00:29:54] By the way, when we do a demo with the CFO, they, oh, yes, totally [00:29:57] get it. That's so super crystal clear. This makes sense. [00:30:00] But do you think that for them to even get to [00:30:03] this point there's just a lot of cleanup [00:30:06] and work that needs to be done on the go to market side to even [00:30:09] create this, right?

Toni: And I'm saying this because [00:30:12] We've done, you know, 20, 30 ish kind of rollouts [00:30:15] and it's always, it always starts with a funnel mapping. [00:30:18] And this is usually where the implementation, you know, [00:30:21] starts to stumble a little bit. It's like, Ooh, you [00:30:24] know, it's, it's either we don't have [00:30:27] any MQL definition or we have five.

Toni: Right. [00:30:30] And that kind of goes for many different steps, actually kind of [00:30:33] some of that cleanup needs to be done first, [00:30:36] before you can instrument this with a product on [00:30:39] top, actually kind of just to kind of build on, on, on your plug there. [00:30:42] Do you have, do you see this similar in the companies that [00:30:45] you're working at?

Toni: That, that some of those basics are actually on a [00:30:48] place and therefore you can't instrument those basics.[00:30:51]

Eddie: All the time. Like most of the time. [00:30:54] I would say though, that [00:30:57] you've got to work with the data that you have. [00:31:00] So for example, that particular customer that I'm talking [00:31:03] about that we just started working with in this way, [00:31:06] I'm looking at their overall close rates, 31%. [00:31:09] And so. I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'm going to say my [00:31:12] hypothesis is one of two things.

Eddie: One, you [00:31:15] guys are doing a good job closing deals and this is not the thing that you need to fix [00:31:18] first. Or, two, you're doing a [00:31:21] terrible job of closing deals, we just can't see it because your reps are [00:31:24] sandbagging everything. Now, we could then look and [00:31:27] see like, well, how much is pipeline generation? We could also [00:31:30] just look like, are we hitting our quota?

Eddie: Our sales target, right? [00:31:33] If we're hitting our sales target and our close rate is 30%, well, then [00:31:36] we're not generating enough pipeline. So then we can go look at that. [00:31:39] Like what's going on there. You can make [00:31:42] meaning from dirty data and a lot, and some of this [00:31:45] data makes its way all the way to accounting. So coming back to our CFO, [00:31:48] we know how much revenue we've booked.

Eddie: We know what it costs [00:31:51] us to book that revenue. We know how much we spent on [00:31:54] marketing. We can figure some things out with accounting data as well. [00:31:57] Even if our CRM data is just complete junk.

Toni: [00:32:00] Yep.

Mikkel: And I think there's a,

Toni: you know, and then [00:32:03] I was going to

Mikkel: say, we can talk about the CFO. for a long [00:32:06] time. You know what, Mikkel, go ahead. You know, I'll, I'll, I'll [00:32:09] go back to And what I was thinking about now was like, so there's [00:32:12] a let's segue away from finance. So there's a gentleman called[00:32:15]

Eddie: Oh, you got me excited.

Mikkel: No, I know. Sorry. Sorry, [00:32:18] rug pull. So there's a gentleman called Jason Lemkin.

Outbound Sales Strategies and Challenges
---

Mikkel: [00:32:21] And one of the things he says about companies that are starting out is, [00:32:24] you gotta do outbound. Just, you gotta [00:32:27] go and get that engine running, right? And I think, [00:32:30] especially now, we've talked about some of the challenges happening on the, let's [00:32:33] say, the account exec side.

Mikkel: We've talked about the challenge with, [00:32:36] Routing inbound leads to junior folks. [00:32:39] Outbound is also kind of under pressure at the moment. So it would be kind of [00:32:42] interesting to hear your take right now. What, what are you seeing happening [00:32:45] there? Some of the mistakes on, on running an outbound [00:32:48] motion?

Eddie: Well, first of all, I don't know if you need to do [00:32:51] outbound. There's a lot of talk right now that you shouldn't do outbound [00:32:54] under a certain ASP or ACV, [00:32:57] right? And the idea behind this is, you know, I don't care [00:33:00] how junior rep you, like, hire. What's it cost for an SDR in [00:33:03] the U. S. these days? Like, last time I looked, it's like [00:33:06] 60K, 70K base, 20K bonus, add [00:33:09] another 25 percent on top of that for overhead, all the technical stuff.[00:33:12]

Eddie: You gotta have a person managing that person. And then [00:33:15] there's an AE that actually has to close that deal. [00:33:18] And then, I don't care how great you are at Outbound, it's really hard to [00:33:21] do Outbound without any marketing cover. Without any, like, [00:33:24] assets or collateral. People are like, well, okay, like, who are you?

Eddie: Show [00:33:27] me a customer story. Like, sales doesn't create customer stories. [00:33:30] So there's a lot of cost that goes into that. [00:33:33] And I think With the abysmal [00:33:36] conversion rates that we're seeing in outbound right now, it's hard to justify that when you're [00:33:39] selling a 10, 000 product. That being said, [00:33:42] the biggest problem that I see and like, let's just talk [00:33:45] about all pipeline generation.

Eddie: Cause I'm increasingly getting to the point where I'm [00:33:48] like, why are we talking about inbound and outbound? It's the same effing thing. It's [00:33:51] calling people that don't want to talk to you and trying to convince them to talk to [00:33:54] you. So, If we do want to talk about [00:33:57] outbound, we're casting far too wide a net.[00:34:00]

Eddie: We say, okay, our ICP is technology [00:34:03] companies with more than 10 million in revenue. Okay, cool. There's [00:34:06] like a million of them. Great. That's it. [00:34:09] And then our buyer personas are everyone in revenue [00:34:12] director and above. Okay. So now we've got like a hundred [00:34:15] thousand people to call and we've got a five person sales team.

Eddie: 15 [00:34:18] person sales team, whatever. And [00:34:21] we make all these calls, they don't convert. And so then we increase the [00:34:24] call activity and we go from 50 calls a day to a hundred calls a day or [00:34:27] emails or whatever. And we just keep casting a wider and [00:34:30] wider net. What companies are not doing is [00:34:33] defining their ideal accounts well enough [00:34:36] and narrowing that focus.

Eddie: Because when you look at [00:34:39] personalized outreach, when you look at. Reps that are [00:34:42] going and doing all of the research, reaching out to the right [00:34:45] person with a very thoughtful message that's targeted [00:34:48] at their industry, at the size of company they're at, at their [00:34:51] role, at their type. And they really understand you as [00:34:54] a human being in this job, in this company, you're facing these [00:34:57] problems.

Eddie: We have other customers facing these problems. [00:35:00] This is how these customers solve those problems. And Oh, by the [00:35:03] way, the thing I'm selling, help them out just a little bit because [00:35:06] nobody has a solution a technology on the planet that just [00:35:09] I haven't seen it yet. Okay. Your tool is [00:35:12] wonderful, but if somebody is not willing to actually like look at the data, [00:35:15] it doesn't just magically grow revenue by itself.[00:35:18]

Eddie: And so what buyers want to hear are these [00:35:21] relevant messages and we're not getting that. And [00:35:24] because they're not getting that, the conversion rates are lower. And so [00:35:27] then management says, well, then we need to do more activity and cast an [00:35:30] even wider net. And it's this vicious cycle. And [00:35:33] instead, the companies that do this really well, they [00:35:36] narrow their focus more and more and more, and to the [00:35:39] point where they have these really strong conversion rates, and they're [00:35:42] able to make an outbound program work by identifying the [00:35:45] right accounts.

Eddie: But I will say, it's expensive [00:35:48] to do that.

Toni: Yeah. I think, I mean, in many [00:35:51] times on many cases, [00:35:54] and yes, some of the growth at all costs is [00:35:57] over, but still people are ambitious. People raise venture [00:36:00] capital rounds and, and you can't sit there for a year or two or [00:36:03] three and build up, you know, a podcast and some content and then wait [00:36:06] for inbounds to happen.

Toni: I kind of, it also doesn't work. Right. [00:36:09] So, you know, I think outbound is very early [00:36:12] in, in, in any kind of company's lifetime. I [00:36:15] think it's the preferred path. You know, channel of choice, I [00:36:18] would say, right? Because something else just hasn't been built up yet. [00:36:21] But then also later, I think it's always [00:36:24] a great way to, you know, as an addition to some of the [00:36:27] inbound stuff that's coming, that's maybe also a lot cheaper, right?[00:36:30]

Toni: But I think the, the, the, the issue is kind of [00:36:33] continuously so that it's like, man, you know, [00:36:36] it, it feels when you, when you scroll [00:36:39] LinkedIn That is just over. It's like you, you can't do outbound [00:36:42] anymore. And I just fundamentally disagree. I sometimes just [00:36:45] don't have a good answer. And I actually think that, you know, kind [00:36:48] of the, the, the point that you're making, it's really [00:36:51] about building a targeted list, being just very [00:36:54] good at that, right.

Toni: And maybe even. having this [00:36:57] list being the same list that the SDRs are [00:37:00] working on, but also that marketing is working on, right? Kind of [00:37:03] creating that stuff. I think this is probably [00:37:06] the, you know, the smarter way to try and figure out [00:37:09] outbound because I think it can work. And I think it can [00:37:12] be a really nice growth lever for a bunch of folks out there.

Aligning Inbound and Outbound Efforts
---

Mikkel: Yeah, I was, [00:37:15] I was gonna say, like, I always wondered why [00:37:18] there was never truly a targeted effort [00:37:21] between the outbound and inbound motion on, Hey, this is what we're going to [00:37:24] do, right? The only point of conversation with. Any kind of [00:37:27] SDR was actually the inbound SDRs, right? You [00:37:30] didn't, at least I never spent a lot of time with the outbound SDRs.

Mikkel: And [00:37:33] looking back, that's kind of silly, right? We heard from Harrison [00:37:36] Rose when they built Paddle. They had a great outbound [00:37:39] motion and they had a great ICP and a great [00:37:42] target list. So when they brought in inbound, the first [00:37:45] thing they did was target that list. And he was like, Oh, great. You [00:37:48] brought in people from the list we already have.

Mikkel: That's kind of stupid [00:37:51] and he realized later like well actually that's exactly what we [00:37:54] wanted to happen right? Are

Mikkel: you kind

Eddie: we should have separate [00:37:57] inbound and outbound teams, like period. Like, let's use two [00:38:00] examples, right? So we've got example number one. This is a company in our [00:38:03] ICP and our buyer persona. Maybe not the best company [00:38:06] ever, but they fit. They could be a good customer. [00:38:09] And the right person in the organization is just all over our [00:38:12] website.

Eddie: They're downloading a ton of content. They're all over the pricing page. They're [00:38:15] watching the demo on the website, which by the way, I'm a big fan of. Like, [00:38:18] why do you need to speak to sales to see a demo? That's a different topic. [00:38:21] Which, yeah, you guys have that stuff on your website, which I love

Mikkel: video [00:38:24] mm hmm

Eddie: Um, that person's all over the website.

Eddie: Like, [00:38:27] should we call that person? Probably. We probably should, right? Okay. [00:38:30] Separately, we've got this company and they're just the perfect company. [00:38:33] They check all the boxes. They are the number one company that we want to [00:38:36] work with. Should we call that company? [00:38:39] Okay, now let's take an account scoring model.

Eddie: How can [00:38:42] we create an account scoring model to combine these two, and just [00:38:45] simply say, here's all the companies that fit our [00:38:48] ICP, and you know, these are all the indicators that these are the best [00:38:51] possible companies for us. They just raised funding, they have this [00:38:54] revenue growth, they have this headcount growth, like they have these particular issues.[00:38:57]

Eddie: And then separately over here, we can say, We also have companies [00:39:00] that are still within our ICP and people in our buyer [00:39:03] personas that are engaging with our marketing content, or we have third [00:39:06] party content. All of this stuff is just signal [00:39:09] because none of these people that I'm talking about have actually gone to [00:39:12] our website and requested a demo.

Eddie: That's a separate thing. So [00:39:15] we've got all of these signals here and we have a sales [00:39:18] team we're paying a lot of money to. Why don't we [00:39:21] just figure out who the sales team should be calling?

Toni: yeah [00:39:24] Yeah, I think that's, that's a good point. I think we're kind of [00:39:27] coming up on time real soon. We are.

Mikkel: And I, and it's almost a [00:39:30] shame because this particular subject just opens up a bazillion [00:39:33] doors, but we kind of also Oh, I wanted to talk more

Toni: about the CFO. Yeah, [00:39:36] let's double back.

Mikkel: No, but we have time for one last thing [00:39:39] before we close.

Mikkel: I don't know if, if you want to, or if is there [00:39:42] another Maybe Eddie has a question. Yeah, I was going to say, could be you had a [00:39:45] question or is there a last point you think we should kind of spend the [00:39:48] last couple of minutes on?

Eddie: I have so many [00:39:51] questions, but I guess like I'll highlight the question that I think is most [00:39:54] top of mind with your tool.

Navigating Dirty Data in Sales
---

Eddie: How do you guys [00:39:57] navigate this issue with this dirty data? When you guys are onboarding your [00:40:00] clients and they don't have the definition of the MQL, maybe they don't [00:40:03] have a true revenue leader what are you guys seeing that's [00:40:06] working for the customers you're working with to help them [00:40:09] sort of like crack this nut of building this like efficient go to market [00:40:12] engine?

Toni: Yeah, so what we learned is that we are actually doing a [00:40:15] mini consulting project just to kind of do the [00:40:18] rollout actually. And those, those projects are [00:40:21] basically you know, full funnel mapping. So, okay, [00:40:24] let's, you know, how, how do you generate revenue? Just let, [00:40:27] let, talk me through this, right? Okay, you have this [00:40:30] inbound motion, you have this outbound motion, you have something else.

Toni: Okay, how does the inbound [00:40:33] motion work? How does it go from A to B to C and so forth? [00:40:36] And, you know, this is done, you know, first and like an [00:40:39] overall, this is, this is how this works map, kind of [00:40:42] like a logic map. Sometimes it's like a RevOps leader or a [00:40:45] CRO or VP sales or something like this, kind of working with us on this.[00:40:48]

Toni: And then we flip this around. It's like, okay, for every box [00:40:51] that we have now defined. Where in the systems do we [00:40:54] find that stuff, actually? And this is, this [00:40:57] is where the, the, the coin drops. This is where everyone is like, ah, [00:41:00] okay, actually, you know what? Actually, we don't know. And then, you know, [00:41:03] it's, it's usually two kinds of problems.[00:41:06]

Toni: It's either the, Okay. We just need to, you [00:41:09] know, decide a little bit on a technical definition. [00:41:12] Easy. The bigger problems are, [00:41:15] Oh damn, I think we need to get the [00:41:18] CMO in the room. We get a VP of sales in the [00:41:21] room and we actually need to decide on this thing. And this is where then [00:41:24] sometimes our implementation project.

Toni: [00:41:27] You know, it goes from an operational, hey, we just need to kind of do these [00:41:30] things. It almost sometimes morphs into almost a strategic [00:41:33] project. And yes, that screws us up, right? Kind of, at least [00:41:36] in the implementation time but we are solving really big [00:41:39] problems for people just by way of basically kind of [00:41:42] getting the getting the tool in the hand, actually.

Toni: So that's, [00:41:45] that's how we're working through this. It's a very hands on white glove [00:41:48] approach actually that, that you have to take because [00:41:51] All of this, there, there's a couple of other folks trying to build in the [00:41:54] same direction. They're kind of trying to make it, you know, plug and play [00:41:57] or trying to make it like self serve from what [00:42:00] we have seen that it just doesn't work.

Toni: You need to [00:42:03] put in the hours to help your customer to [00:42:06] get to the sophistication level, which is usually not that [00:42:09] super high in order to actually that instrument on top.[00:42:12]

Eddie: That's what I've seen as well and that's why I asked.

Toni: Yeah. [00:42:15] I mean, those are things that, you know, You know, [00:42:18] we're doing these things right now, but actually you should be doing those. You know, [00:42:21] you should, you should be fixing the funnel.

Toni: Give us a call [00:42:24] when you did, and then we can come in all the other way [00:42:27] around. You're like, Oh, this looks like an Eddie project to [00:42:30] me. And then, you know, I have you go in first and then we come with the [00:42:33] product afterwards. Right. But kind of those I'm not sure that those actually kind of [00:42:36] services you sell now that we've plugged our product, you know, it's like, [00:42:39] let's end with a plug, just making sure.

Toni: Yeah.[00:42:42]

Eddie: No, I mean, that's exactly what we do. And like, you know, our teams are [00:42:45] in conversation about this, right. And, you know, I'm somewhat [00:42:48] shamelessly plugging your product because we believe in it. What [00:42:51] we are trying to do is to help a company [00:42:54] be more data driven and more process driven so that as [00:42:57] they deploy capital and their CFO deploys capital, [00:43:00] it goes into places that are most likely.[00:43:03]

Eddie: [00:43:06] And you cannot do that if you can't get your hands [00:43:09] around the data. And so, you know, we spend [00:43:12] so much time with our customers trying to fix these data [00:43:15] issues. However, even fixing [00:43:18] them and putting them into Salesforce, like the visualization is really [00:43:21] limiting. And so we're increasingly talking [00:43:24] internally about like, you know, can we bring grow blocks to every [00:43:27] single customer that we work with?

Eddie: Because having that ability [00:43:30] to just see it in one place and then move the dials [00:43:33] around to see like what's going into this is really, really [00:43:36] powerful, but you've got to have the process in place to be able to [00:43:39] achieve that.

Eddie: If anybody's listening to this and you want to understand like, [00:43:42] what are the components that go into like building this [00:43:45] stuff? We have our revenue efficiency pyramid right on our [00:43:48] website. And it talks about defining your ICP and your buyer personas and [00:43:51] defining an MQL and defining your sales process.

Eddie: And we [00:43:54] have a visual chart that shows you the order of operation of the [00:43:57] things that you need to fix in order to have this reliable data [00:44:00] so that you can build this more efficient revenue engine.

Mikkel: [00:44:03] That's it. Eddie, thanks so much [00:44:06] for setting the record straight on. Great Pizza. Thanks so [00:44:09] much for sharing A lot of Go-to-market challenges and having this chat [00:44:12] with us. Maybe this is not the last time we're gonna hop on a call together [00:44:15] and record it so much more we could hop into. [00:44:18] Thank you, Eddie.

Toni: Thanks Eddie.

Eddie: Thanks for having me.[00:44:21]

Toni: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for joining us and hope everyone took [00:44:24] something away here. Feel free to share it with some of [00:44:27] your, you know, your CFO friends and CRO friends and tell them like, Hey, [00:44:30] listen, this is, this is why we're having those issues. And, you know, I'm, [00:44:33] I'm sure Eddie and Toni and Mikkel can help us with this, but [00:44:36] otherwise hit subscribe, like, follow, friend, [00:44:39] share, whatever, and have a good one, folks.

Toni: Thanks for listening. Bye [00:44:42] bye.

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