Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode, Jess and Scott discuss a recent incident in which their child told them that she doesn't feel like they spend enough time with her. Jess unpacks her feelings of guilt around being a working mom, and Scott helps her understand the deeper reasons behind this guilt.
They explore the struggles of dividing time and attention between sick kids and their other children who still crave connection. Jess opens up about her fears, as a parenting expert, of not being a good enough parent herself and the challenges of transitioning from being a stay-at-home mom to working outside the home more.
Through the conversation, they realize the importance of validating their children's feelings while also helping them build resilience in handling disappointment. Jess and Scott provide an honest look at the guilt many parents face and share insights on navigating these complex emotions.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
Alright Jess, today I want to ask you about something I've noticed.
In you.
And also I feel it often too.
But often I feel like we're both feeling kind of guilty about not spending enough time with each of our three girls.
Even though like outside of work we try to be done at a good time, we try and be 100% with them when we're done work until they're in bed.
And on weekends, we often try not to make too many plans so that we can really spend time with them.
But yet it sometimes doesn't seem like it's enough for them.
So I don't know, bridging the gap is the right word or right phrase, but
How do we bridge the gap between we spend all this time with them, but yet we feel guilty and it doesn't seem like that's a necessary feeling?
I know.
It's tough.
I feel like I want to start the conversation off by just talking as a mom and then maybe I can switch to trying to talk about it as a therapist part way through.
Yeah, I mean it's a real experience for us, right?
I feel like it's something that if a client was coming to me with this, I would respond one way.
But then of course as the parent going through it, it feels a little bit different.
So I'll give an example.
So this is what I've been struggling with this week.
Our youngest daughter has had strep throat this week.
And strep throat is terrible if you've ever had it.
I've had it so many times in my life and it always really puts me out.
So our youngest has had strep throat, so basically she's just been really upset, crying.
She's wanted to be sitting on me
Like I think there was one day this week she sat on me for like five straight hours, just basically crying.
Yep.
It was awful.
That was before the antibiotics really kicked in.
Really struggling with that.
Yeah, and she's feeling better now, thankfully.
So there's one day this week where she's sitting on me for five hours.
And I'm doing my very best to also talk with the other girls, but it's not feeling like enough to them.
Anytime you would get off
Or you would try and get the youngest off your lap and do something for the others.
She would have a very hard time.
She was crying.
She was crying.
Which makes sense.
She was in a ton of pain.
She was in so much pain and so in that moment I knew of my three kids, her physical need to be close to me, to be on me was the greatest.
Like she had to be with me
So we did our best to also still be with our older two kids.
But then of course after two days of the one child being on mum, their jealousy starts to creep up in the older two
Then all of a sudden you start to hear, 'cause our kids are very emotionally aware, which is great, but you start to hear, Mom, you know, I'm feeling really frustrated because you're only hanging out with
my sister and you're not playing with me.
And so then all of a sudden you start hearing that and you do start feeling guilty.
You're like, ah, you just started summer holidays and this is the start of your break and I can't spend any time with you
And our daughters are expressing that to us and we're trying our best, right?
But anytime we try and get off the couch or do anything, then our youngest also starts crying and having a really hard time.
Which reminded me of like when she was a newborn and we had the similar kind of thing, right?
So it's not just when they're sick, it's like if you have a new baby, now you're yeah, you can't hang out with your older kids.
And then they start to feel upset.
And it's like I would try and connect with them, you know, hey, why don't we sit and watch a show together or read a book while I'm sitting here?
Or
Even the one day I said to our oldest, why don't we pretend to be characters?
Like I'll be a prince and you be my mom, the queen, and let's pretend to be a prince and a queen and
She was like, mm, yeah, but it's not playing horsies outside.
I'm like, oh, I'm trying here.
I'm trying to be a good parent
So I think this conversation is kind of stemming from that, right?
So then at the end of the day you get them all to bed and you just kind of feel like, have I done enough for them today?
But at the very same time
I've done everything I possibly can for them today.
Well what I find interesting too is even though let's say I'm playing with them that whole time, I'm hanging out with them, they still seem to need both
of our attention.
It's not enough to just have one of us.
Yeah, exactly.
So I'm with the baby and you've been hanging out with the older kids.
But then it's still, well mom, you didn't play with me today.
I notice that anytime you've traveled too, they will afterwards, or any time I've traveled, afterwards they gravitate to the one that's been away because they feel like they've been missing out on that time and attention from that parent
Yeah.
And I am so grateful.
I think something that's amazing about our children is they're so emotionally aware.
So they realize that they haven't had the connection time.
That's been kind of nice
That's been really nice.
So I will say that the work that we've done to help them understand their emotions and what's going on inside of their body.
For the most part, they're able to communicate that with us, which is nice.
Our four-year-old is getting better, but I wouldn't say she's
She's fully there.
Yeah, she's not fully there.
She will tell us often, but not always.
Not always.
So I'm just gonna switch into education mode for a minute.
There's like between the ages of five to seven, we typically start to see that shift of
being able to express your emotions, being able to think a little bit more logically during like these difficult times.
So since our oldest is seven, she's started to have that shift happen where she can express her emotions and see, well
Mom's with the toddler who's sick, right?
So she might not have as much time with me, but she still struggles with it.
So she'll still let us know that it's hard, which is fair and valid.
Whereas our four-year-old, she's just on the cusp of that shift.
So sometimes she can say, Mommy, play with me, or Mummy, I want to snuggle, or Mummy, I miss you, she'll say that
But then other times she'll be like, I don't like mummy.
Mummy's yucky and mummy's the worst.
And so other times she'll express that she needs that time with me by trying to push me away
by calling me yucky.
Yeah, she's trying to protect herself.
Saying I don't like mommy.
So her defenses will be really high.
So that's the other way she'll show us that.
She doesn't have the time with us that she needs.
So I guess we're just expressing all of that.
How do you feel when the kids are are like that with you?
Like do they say the same kind of thing to you?
Like daddy didn't play enough with me today?
Uh yeah
Of course.
Yeah.
I mean it's I think we're experiencing the exact same thing, just in different ways.
Because I would say, like I'm always gonna call her the baby, but our toddler.
Yeah, one thing about us is and we know that this is not the healthiest thing, but we they always call our toddler the baby just because she's our third baby.
The other girls do too.
We all just call her our baby.
Anyway
She tends to still gravitate more towards you.
Yeah.
So then the older two, I'm often doing things with them.
And I've kind of made it a bit of a
Uh I don't know if habit's the right word, but I try and spend extra time with them so some mornings.
I'll take our middle daughter and I'll have a coffee and she has a donut or we share our donut together.
I would say I do a lot with our oldest daughter
So she and I do lots of different things together.
I am the one that takes her to karate twice a week.
I mean we do lots of stuff.
We do little projects together constantly and
Yeah, you guys are really connected.
And I truly believe we're both very connected to our kids.
And that's why we have these feelings.
I was saying before to uh there's a few of our team members here, I was expressing to them
So yesterday we came off of a couple days to strop throw.
It was really hard.
So yesterday was actually my birthday.
And I said to the kids first thing in the morning, because I knew I hadn't spent a ton of time with the older two
It's like before I go to work, let's go early and I'm gonna go take you out for a donut and a coffee and you guys can get they like to get peppermint tea
So we did that.
The first thing we did in the morning.
I went, got donuts of peppermint tea with them.
Then I came in, I had to work for a few hours.
And then since it was my birthday, I was like, I'll take off a little bit early today.
and then I decided to go home and was like, Girls, do you want to get your nails done with me?
We got our nails done together, then we came home, had some more connected time, we had family over, we spent time together.
And then because it was my birthday, they thought I should have the privilege of putting them
All three of them to bed.
Which was really cute and actually does show that they know that I delight in time with them.
Yeah, like TMI, but I was sitting on the toilet and going pee.
And the girls come rushing into the bathroom like the older two, the four and seven year old.
They come rushing in the bathroom and they say
Mom, you get to put us to bed tonight.
We told daddy that you can put us to bed because it's your birthday, as if it was like the greatest gift that they could have ever given me.
And at first I was just joking with them, like, no, I don't want to do that.
And they were like, you're teasing, Mom.
Of course you want to put us to bed.
It's your birthday.
So that was that was a good sign.
So my entire birthday and then I was kind of bugging the girls.
I was like, girls, is it your birthdays today or is it my birthday?
Because I feel like on my birthday I took you out for donuts.
I got your nails done
now I get to put you to bed.
And then they were laughing.
They're like, Yeah, it kind of feels like our birthday too.
Yeah, it was a special day for them too.
It was a special day for them too, which was so special to me.
And then
I put them both to bed.
Our middle child, she wanted me to hug her like a koala until she fell asleep.
So I laid there hugging her like a koala and
And then she fell asleep in my arms, which was so precious.
And then my oldest daughter, she wanted to chit-chat and talk.
So we talked for about 35 minutes.
Then after 35 minutes of talking, it was like, okay, I have to go put your sister to bed, the baby, the toddler.
to bed and she was like, Oh Mom, you never spend enough time with me And I was just like I don't know what else to do here, my friend.
Like I feel like I've tried to give you so much time today
I will keep it light and playful when she'll make a comment like that because she was also kind of realized, I think, that that was a little silly.
She's like, Mom, you don't spend ever enough time with me.
I'm like, I think I've spent uh quite a bit of time with you tonight.
And she's like, Mom, anyway.
But even even those comments and maybe that's like the deeper thing here, I still feel like they trigger something in me.
So maybe there's something deeper going on because even though she's just bugging me, I always think about my dad used to say, you know, behind every joke there's a little bit of truth.
So I still always think like there's something deeper there for her, even though she's bugging me about I I don't spend enough time with her, there's something about her that feels that that's true.
So after that really connected thirty-five minutes of laying in bed with her and cuddling and talking and then kisses and hugs and all that before I go to put the other daughter to bed, she just makes that little comment, Oh ha ha ha, you don't spend enough time with me
And it just triggers me and then I feel guilty for the rest of the night.
So I don't know what that's about.
I'm sure we can get there.
Can I ask a question though?
Please.
Is it ever gonna be enough?
Like at any point will a child ever say
You know, I've spent too much time with you, mom, or I've spent too much time with you.
I want some space.
I feel like at their ages It will never be it's not going to be the case ever.
They're always going to want to spend more time with you.
Yeah.
And I did kind of jokingly say that to her.
I said, hun, like you just love spending time with me.
Hey, and I love spending time with you too.
When do you think it will ever be enough time?
And she goes
Well, you're my mom.
So never.
So she literally said that, right?
Yeah.
So and then we would just
kind of playfully being with each other.
And I was like, never enough time.
And then I started joking, well what if I did this?
And what if I did that?
Like all these things that annoy her
I'm like, would it be enough time then?
And she's like, never, it would never be enough time.
So wouldn't Dr.
Neufeld and Dr.
Matte from their books say that that's exactly what you want?
Yes.
And I know that like theoretically, this is right.
Like it's it's the right thing that your seven-year-old can't get enough of you.
But in my heart it's hard to hear because it's like but I try so hard to give you enough of me, you know
Is it those people-pleasing tendencies coming out?
Even for your children?
Interesting.
Interesting.
I think this might be a revelation.
Yeah, I think there is a a piece of people pleasing with the kids that I struggle with that I am self-aware about.
And I wonder if it's like, is it people pleasing with them or is it just like a guilt of
being a working mom?
Because I wasn't always a working mom.
Yeah, good question.
I'm not sure.
Like I can't relate to that, right?
I feel like it's normal for men to just work always, right?
Yeah, you don't have this underlying feeling like, Oh well, I should be home with it.
It's not like I go on Instagram and people
People are shaming me for working full time and not spending every hour of the day with my kids, so I can't really relate to that feeling.
And I mean that could very well be part of it for you.
I don't know.
I think it is.
I still feel that too though.
Like I still feel like I don't spend enough time with the kids, even though honestly we spend we say no to a lot of things, and we talked about that in another episode.
We say no to a lot of things specifically because we know our kids need our time and attention.
Yeah, and we say no to things that would even involve the kids being with us, but it wouldn't have our undivided time and attention.
so that we can spend, let's say, a Saturday vr with like tons of friends where there's a million kids there, or we'll just be like, you know what, no, we'll just stay home and hang out just with our own kids.
Yeah.
Like so we prioritize them a lot.
So it's funny that I think from anyone like looking in, they'd probably be like, Man, you guys spend so much time with your kids.
Like how could you feel bad about it?
But I do think that there's still that underlying feeling of like, yeah, but is it enough
We struggle with the thing.
Like they probably also feel like
They probably get that.
Well maybe it's a chicken and egg situation where maybe we feel that way or maybe they've said it and we don't know which came first, but we all kind of feel like we want to spend all this time together.
And is that a wrong feeling?
Right.
I feel like we make in general the most choices to spend the most time with our kids.
So like most of what we do is we try and spend time with
As just a family, our group of five, our family of five.
So yeah, I kind of feel guilty sometimes when we're talking about work after dinner or something like that.
But in general, personally I feel like we do a pretty good job.
So I don't feel that much guilt around the subject.
Because I know in general they're going to want to spend as much possible time with us.
And as they should.
Yeah.
Right?
So I guess there's that piece, like a child should want to be in relationship with their parent as much as possible.
And it's okay for them to tolerate disappointment every once in a while when you have a sick child or and I think I don't know if I was talking about this with you or someone else, but like treating your children fairly doesn't mean it's always like
equal amount of time with each.
Right.
So it was fair this week for our youngest to get the most time because she was super sick and she really needed it.
She was trying to shove her hands down her mouth because uh she wanted us to
Take the sore throat away.
Right.
So she needed that time.
And maybe another week, like there was another week our middle child was really struggling a lot.
And I really had to pour in with her because I could see her defenses were up with me because she was saying, I don't like you, mommy.
You know, you're yucky and
That was a sign for me of oh she needs more closeness with me.
Yeah.
And you have to remember last week I went on a field trip with her oldest and we had a party for her oldest and
Last week our oldest was finishing at her school, so that was a tough week for her, so we poured into her, right?
So I think that's the other thing I
Need to remember and and be okay with just validating those feelings in our kids.
Like, I know it's really tricky.
You're disappointed right now because you wish
You just love so much.
Yeah, you wish you wish I didn't have to take care of your sister and you wish that she wasn't sick and I get that.
But you know, today is one of those days where she really needs
A little bit of extra time and I wonder what you can do to I feel like with our oldest you can have that conversation.
You can say, hey, let's try and figure out something.
Maybe you can do something with dad instead.
Yeah.
And then what we can do with our oldest is we will often make a plan.
Like she loves to have it in the schedule and know when I will have the undivided time with her
So for example, this week what I said was I can't give that to you today because look at what's going on here.
But what about Friday night?
Daddle with the other girls to bed and we'll do a sleepover together.
I didn't tell you that.
You did not tell me that.
Interesting.
So Friday night we have in the schedule that I will do a sleepover with her, which all involves like
She's like, oh then we can do each other's makeup and we can do like there's a whole list of things she wants to do in our sleepover, but there was something about having that on the calendar that made her feel at peace.
Like, okay, I know we'll get that time
Now with our four year old that's a bit trickier when she wants that time with us because it's not as sometimes she doesn't understand that.
Yeah.
She's more like, I need it right now when I need it.
So I feel like some of the things, and this is things that you can do whether you have a child that's sick or you just had a new baby, like how can we create those little bridges, those little
tiny moments we call them of interaction and connection that can help get them through.
So with our middle daughter, it maybe it's like
Sitting and reading a couple books together.
Well, she loves getting that donut too sometimes.
Yeah.
If you can.
I try to do that before going to work with her.
Yeah, we'll just take her to a local cafe and we'll just get a donut.
It takes like
30 minutes, we'll sit down with her, eat the donut together, but that means the world to her, like that intentional quality time.
So doing something like that.
the quality interactions don't have to be big in order for them to be meaningful for them.
And I find with our middle child who gets very defensive and like, I don't like you, like your inkling as a parent is going to be to
pull away or say, hey, you can't talk to me like that.
That's rude.
But what I know is when that defensiveness comes up, it's like it's a pour in.
Like we have to actually lean so much closer in
and not let those little comments get to us, which can be tricky.
And then our toddler, like she has she has moments too.
Like I think last week she had a hard week because her big sisters were having tough weeks.
So we were actually spending a lot more time with
the two of them and she's a pretty happy go-lucky toddler, but she was definitely missing that connection time too.
Yeah.
What's the moral of the story, Jess?
There's actually there's Kate.
I told you I was gonna come back to my therapist lens.
Yeah.
And I think when you feel guilt as a parent
I think sometimes we're too dismissive, like, oh, you should never feel guilt as a parent.
Like I'll see stuff like that on Instagram, you know, just like release yourself from all guilt or whatever.
Is that realistic?
Yeah, I don't think that's realistic.
And I think when you feel guilt about something, you should tune in with that feeling and then tune in with your value system and try and understand where that guilty feeling is coming from, which is kind of what I had said to you at the top of the conversation.
Like
I want to understand why I'm feeling guilty.
And one of the things that you were saying before is like, well, maybe is there a conflict between your values and what's actually happening?
Maybe there's some people pleaser tendencies where you're like you don't want your children to be disappointed in you.
But what is like the guilt?
I feel bad because I can't give all my love and attention to all my kids all the time
That's probably not actually what's going on here.
There's something like behind that that's a value of ours that I think that's what we really need to figure out.
And then you can figure out how you can release yourself from the guilt.
But I think
Sometimes we oversimplify mom guilt or dad guilt, parent guilt, and just say, well, you know, don't feel guilty.
It's okay that you're a working parent.
Or it's okay that you can't give
your kids all the time in love and attention, but I think it's actually better to go, well, what's the value that you're feeling in conflict with and why is that coming out in guilt?
So what value is that?
Because our words have never been spoken.
What value do you think I'm in conflict with?
What value?
Or we.
Because it I think it could be
our guilty feelings around this, I think we've identified that we actually do our very best to live within our values.
Yeah.
To be hon I feel like I don't feel the same level of guilt that you feel.
And maybe this is just in general how I do things.
I realize that there's maybe a desire from the kids to want to spend more time, so then I try and figure out when we can spend more time
And I'm not necessarily feeling like overly guilty about the few hours that we spend with them at the end of every day, the hour and a half that we spend at the beginning of the m like in the morning.
And then all weekend.
Like that's just the reality of our lives.
So we spend as much time as we possibly can.
I would say we live within our values.
Mm-hmm.
For the most part.
Sometimes we get distracted by work stuff and where we have to talk and that takes up some of that quality time and then we I feel like we readjust.
We realize that.
And we've talked about that before where we say, okay, it's time for us to just
Stop.
Yep.
Let's do it.
Let's table this until after once all the kids are in bed, then we can ha continue having this discussion.
So you feel like you don't have like this feeling of guilt, like I don't give the kids enough of me.
I mean I always feel like I would love to give them more.
But again, realistically speaking, can we?
No, like I don't think we can.
And I mean I even take Fridays off so that I can spend the entire day with them on that day too, which is a privilege, right?
I think there's like two different things that are going on for me.
So the one thing that always plays through my mind, and I don't know if I've told you about this, is years ago
Like I I don't this might even be before I ran Nurtured First or Mama Village or anything like that.
I was a therapist working with kids and I came across
someone who was actually the daughter of one of my professors that I really looked up to.
Oh yeah, right.
Did I tell you this story?
Yeah I remember you telling me about this.
Yeah and the professor was incredible.
The professor taught parenting
Like so in my undergraduate degree, a lot of my courses were actually on child development and parenting makes sense given my profession now.
And I really looked up to this professor.
They were a leading expert in parenting and child development
And her daughter said to me, I said, Oh, that's your mom?
Like, oh, I love her.
She's so smart and she's taught me everything, you know.
And the daughter was like, Yeah, she's great at teaching parenting, but she was a terrible parent.
And it like
Ugh, it hurt my heart because it was like, wait, all this guidance and information I took from this person and she actually was a terrible parent.
And so I think as someone who teaches parenting for a living
my absolute worst fear of be for my own children to grow up and be like, oh yeah, she helped millions of people around the world be a better parent, but she actually sucked at being a parent.
Right.
So I think I have that fear and that is in the back of my mind sometimes.
I know if I really think about it
that I am a good parent and I mean this coming from me so, you know, it's it's hard it's hard to take it.
But
I truly practice everything I preach with our girls.
And I want them to feel so safe and loved.
And those are my values.
Like I truly do.
And if I wasn't running Nurtured First, I would parent the same way I parent now, right?
Like I don't parent this way because I run this business.
I parent this way because I truly believe it's the most important way to parent our kids and I believe in helping our kids grow up in safe and loving homes.
Like that is a value of mine.
just so happens that it's also my work to teach everybody this.
So I think that's one fear that I have is like I just don't want the girls to ever grow up and be like, yeah.
She uh spent so much time teaching other people that she didn't actually spend time with me.
Right.
That's just a fear
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unsafe.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Do you think you're putting
extra unneeded pressure on yourself.
Because I feel like no matter how good your childhood is, when a child
grows and becomes a parent themselves or maybe not even a parent but just grows up, there will be things that I think regardless of how well you parented, there's gonna be like, I don't think they did this right
A hundred percent.
I already know that there's gonna be things that they come to me and say, Well, why would you have done this or why would you have said that?
And they're gonna want their own therapy for stuff and I think that that will also be a sign of a job well done that they're like willing to communicate those stuff with me.
And I'm already ready.
Like I'm already ready to have those conversations and potentially be hurt by what they have to say when they're adults and they're like, hey, I didn't like how you did this and this when I was a kid or, you know
I wish you wouldn't have said this or I wish you wouldn't have done that.
Like I'm already ready to have those conversations and be an open and willing participant in them.
Do you think those will hurt?
Do I think that those conversations will hurt?
Yeah.
Yeah, probably.
But that'll be okay.
Just because it's me.
And like You don't think it would hurt you if the kids grew up and all of a sudden were like, hey dad, you screwed up
in this in this area and now I'm gonna go to therapy for it.
I'm just letting you know.
In no way am I under the impression that I have not done things incorrectly.
Yeah.
So it will be important for we've talked about this before.
It's important for me that the kids know that we are not perfect.
And that a lot of the things that we do and we say now, they may not love in the future.
Like we're not
by any means perfect because that's we're humans.
So if they were to come back to us in the future and say, hey, this really affected me and
It's affected me to this day.
That's not gonna surprise me.
I mean yeah, I'll wish maybe I had I had done things better, potentially, but that's
But I will I would love to have a relationship with them where they feel comfortable telling us that and they know that we can handle it.
Yeah.
Like how I think maybe the difference is for me, because of how I grew up
I realized that that messed me up a whole bunch.
So my concern is that I do not want to pass on even a portion of that messed upness to them.
To them.
Yeah
And that's why I've said to you recently, like, at what point should we potentially even send them to a therapist just so they can work through anything that maybe I have done inadvertently
Yeah.
Just because I don't want them to experience anything like what I experienced.
Mm-hmm.
And this is too perfectionist raising kids.
Like I'm just thinking to myself, like we uh two perfectionists, but also we know we're not perfect.
Yeah, that know that they aren't perfect.
We try and do the best that we can, but we know that there's room for error and
I do think like from my therapist lens, like the beautiful thing that we are doing with the kids is we're pouring so much into this relationship with them and like we're really trying to show them, hey, like we want you to come to us
even when they already are saying things like our oldest saying, you know, you didn't spend enough time with me today.
I really wanted to play horses, but, you know, you didn't have time to do that and that was disappointing.
Like even already they're able to tell that to us and I'm not getting her in trouble.
Like
How dare you say that?
We're just like, yeah, I get it.
Like it's hard when you can't have us in the way that you want us to.
Like, so we're already validating those feelings, even if we can't fix
the way that they feel in the moment.
So I do think that that's one of the really important things that parents can do when they feel stretched then.
Right.
The other thing so I told you that the one guilty feeling I have is like I don't want to be a teacher of this information and then not actually do it.
Which I know logically that is not what's happening.
So that's okay.
As you would say, sometimes when I get anxious about things, I'll just go check.
So that's the one thing.
And then the other piece is, you know, I was raised by a stay at home mom.
And I really valued that experience as a child.
And I have been a stay-at-home mom for several years, even though I was working on the side.
Yeah
Uh I mean I was still working, but I was with the kids.
Like during the pandemic, like almost like three years of pretty much being home mostly full time.
Yeah.
And now is the first time
that I've ever been working, like truly working outside of the home four days a week.
So this is just different for me.
And I think that's where we differ.
You've always worked.
five days a week outside of the home.
I've always been mostly home and then oh maybe I'll get a babysitter here and there so I can get some work done.
And then that feels like a nice break.
for me to get work done.
Now that our kids are a little bit older, it's the first time I'm actually like going to an office four days a week since before having kids.
Yeah.
That's a big increase.
Seven years.
That's true
So I think that that's probably where my more of a guilty feeling comes out 'cause I'm like, well, I actually used to be the one that was with you four days a week.
And now I mean our oldest is even in school.
So it's like
even if I was a stay-at-home mom, she wouldn't even be home with me, right?
But I think that's where I am currently working through some of these feelings myself transitioning
Now I know the truth is that I could be a stay-at-home mom and be incredibly overwhelmed or feel more triggered, which I totally was when I was a stay-at-home mom, because there was a lot of things that
were really, really difficult for me about that.
Like all the things like doing all the laundry and the cooking and the cleaning and the mess and the overstimulation and all of that.
Like
Now I feel like for me personally, this is not for everybody, but when I go to work and I come home, I have a lot more capacity to be fully present than I did when I was home full-time.
So I actually feel like there's a piece of me that is a better parent in terms of like the capacity that I have to give and pour into them.
than I was when I was there all the time and I was overwhelmed and trying to do all the things that I wasn't very good at and overstimulated.
So there is that piece too.
But I think that that's what I'm working through right now.
And I think a lot of
Parents probably are in the same boat.
Like going back to work after having almost seven years of raising babies at home.
Like it's it's a big adjustment
Yeah, and if you think too.
Not that you had it for our our last child, but we have a year maternity leave or up to a year and a half in Canada, too.
Which we're so lucky to have.
Yeah.
But in yeah, other countries, that's a completely different story too.
So you have to go back after what, twelve weeks or something like that in the US and I don't know what it is in other countries, but
Yeah, it's difficult, even though we're set up pretty well here, relatively speaking, for raising kids at home and spending enough time with them.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think that's the piece.
And then so it's if I tune in with those values, it's like, well, why do I feel so triggered when our daughter after
me spending almost all day with her says, well you don't spend enough time.
I think it just brings up this memory of like, well you're not a stay at home mom, Jess.
And your mom is a little bit more.
It's always something deeper.
And I I knew it was, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you.
Because I'm like, it's not about not spending enough time because I spend
so much time with them.
And what's the deeper feeling?
It's like this feeling of guilt because I'm no longer a stay-home mom.
Now I've transferred into being a working mom.
And there's these internalized feelings of does that make me a bad parent?
And I know what I would say to any working mom.
Like all my friends basically are working moms and they're incredible parents to their children.
Like and I see that
So I would never treat a friend the way I treat myself.
But I'm very like hard on myself.
Why do you think that is?
There's some sure there's a deeper reason there too
Why is Jess a perfectionist when it comes to this?
That's a whole other podcast episode probably.
Why do you think that this is?
I don't know.
Ten years being married?
You haven't figured that one out yet?
Well maybe I do, but I feel like this episode is almost
me providing therapy to the therapist, so I want to continue um I like it, I know.
It's kinda nice.
It's a nice change of pace over here.
Yeah.
And I came into this episode knowing I wanted to be really honest about that.
And I know we could have done this episode from a totally different lens where I just like provide my therapist opinion on all the things.
But I think it's important to name that even
the professionals can struggle with these feelings sometimes.
And what I don't want to do is just get stuck in the guilt and be like, okay, well then I have to quit my job or then and I don't want to get this frantic energy like then I just
Give them more and give them more.
Because I don't even I don't even think that's the answer to this, right?
It's like you said, children w will always want more.
So it's okay for them.
Yeah, it's not like we provide a small amount of
quality time with them.
Right.
And if we really truly reflect, it's like no, we actually provide a lot of time with them.
If we reflected, like there's been times for sure, that I've reflected and been like, let's say the month of May, I went on a trip to Nashville for work
And then we went to Portugal for our 10th anniversary and we were gone a lot that month.
Right.
So that month when the kids were saying that and I reflected
It was like, yeah, actually, we haven't spent enough time with them and we really need to and we really need to prioritize doing that.
Right.
So it's not always that we reflect and we're like, we're good.
just this t this time and this season we're actually like no we are okay.
So then is it okay for us to help them navigate feelings of disappointment?
Is it okay for us to have those conversations and be like, yeah, that's really tricky.
Let's journal it out.
It's a probably an important skill to learn so they build resilience.
Yeah.
It's part of them building resilience too, right?
And I think the thing that we don't want to do is be like
Just get over it.
You have tons of time and be dismissive about it.
Yeah, right.
Or get angry at them about them asking for time with us.
Like I never want to do that.
I want them to always know like I love spending time with you.
I delight in spending time with you.
And if I could, I would spend all the time with you that I could.
But I can't.
And that's okay too.
And you're capable of handling those feelings.
I'm still alongside you.
I'm still gonna help you navigate those feelings.
But it's okay to be disappointed or even upset
And help them navigate that so that they know that they can feel those feelings and still feel safe with us in relationship.
Sounds good.
Well, I think that's a nice way to end off this episode.
Yeah, well once again a messy conversation but I hope that you feel a little bit seen if you're in the same boat and maybe you have some of your own thoughts on why this is triggering for you and I'd love to hear about it.
Let us know what you think of this episode.
Let us know.
All right, we'll talk soon.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a
rating and review, Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.
A five-star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there.
Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.