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Conversations from the Hype Network; Business innovation, technology, and current events from a faith-filled perspective.
Arun: All right.
So let's get started.
Episode 18.
Ps Adam: And guess what?
Vance is back.
It
Ps Vance: felt wrong for me to listen
to that pod and I wasn't on it.
It felt wrong.
We missed you.
Aaron did well though.
I'll tell you.
Yeah, he did.
Getting
Arun: some fans.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Weirdly enough, this was our
most listened to podcast.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
We had
Arun: our single highest download day.
Come on.
Thank you.
Shout out to pray.
com.
Featuring Pastor Adam.
Is that what we're giving
Ps Adam: credit to?
I thought we were going
to give credit to Aaron.
Yeah, yeah,
Ps Vance: yeah.
Arun: Let's give credit to
Ps Vance: Aaron.
Yeah.
Credit to Aaron.
Yeah, totally.
He looks fantastic.
Ps Adam: He was giving credit to himself.
Ps Vance: Literally millions
and millions of views.
Millions of viewers just listening.
Yeah.
Arun: We almost shut down Spotify.
It was just too much load for them.
It's crazy.
It's
Ps Vance: crazy.
Down.
It's crazy.
Arun: Well, Pastor Vance, you've been
doing a lot since you've been gone.
You want to just fill the audience
in to what you've been doing?
Ps Vance: Yeah, I mean, we're
talking about Christmas parties.
Yep.
We just had, I guess, overflow Christmas
party slash night of generosity.
It was incredible.
Last week, my goodness.
So I was, you know, Kim,
uh, was organizing all this.
She's the VP of people.
She's really right, my
right hand at the company.
And she, she put this together in
like six weeks, she was sending me
all these plans and proposals and
I was approving it, but I walked in
and my expectations were exceeded.
And I think everybody felt that way.
It was unreal.
So it was at an incredible restaurant,
which, you know, they don't have a
Michelin star, but probably should.
They should definitely.
Ps Adam: I mean, if they're not getting
one soon, I'll just award them one.
What's the name of the place?
Bisteka.
Ps Vance: Bisteka.
Shout out to our sponsors, Bisteka.
It's not Bisteka.
It's Bisteka.
I'm pretty sure it's pisteca.
Arun: Oh, no, no.
I've always seen it written out.
So I've always been saying pisteca.
So it's pisteca.
Ps Vance: Right.
Right.
Right.
Yep.
And, uh, right in the heart
of the Silicon Valley.
Yep.
And, uh, it was a phenomenal
culinary experience.
Pastor Adam made some pasta.
I did.
Oh, wow.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Right.
The chef let us come into the
kitchen, get hands on with the meal.
Yeah.
And, uh, we made pasta and we
were able to take pasta home.
Wow.
I mean, it was so many things.
I mean, there was so much
that happened in the night.
It's incredible.
It was like action packed
from start to finish.
We grilled, we cooked, we had
beautiful cocktail champagne moments.
The champagne moments were awesome
celebrating beautiful generosity and
celebrating breakthrough moments.
And they had, you know, the
champagne moments throughout the
night where everyone cheers and it
was great to, you know, just give
company report company acceleration.
We, uh, My favorite part of the, the
whole night was probably the caviar table.
Yeah.
The, uh, you know, when you
go to somewhere and have
like a little, little caviar.
Yeah, right.
No, this was a table of caviar.
Like, like, I'm like, so
this is like, serve yourself?
It was, it was wild.
I went to town.
I mean, I, I skipped the
carbs and went to the caviar.
No,
Ps Vance: it was wild.
So, you know, um, we, like, Like Pastor
Adam said, Champagne Moments, we are
celebrating what happened in 2023.
Yes.
All the accomplishments, uh, all the
organizations that we help accelerate
their missions, their visions, churches
buying buildings all across the nation.
Uh, you know, people launching
missions and, and things like that.
So that was phenomenal.
And that, that night we
gave away over 85, 000.
That was
Ps Adam: the epic moment.
Yes.
So we have a flow foundation
Ps Vance: through the launch.
Uh, it was kind of, uh, kind of our
launch party of the overflow foundation,
which is going to be, you know, if
overflows mission is to inspire the
world to give, uh, the mission of the
foundation is to show them how to give.
And so how can we center the foundation
to be an example of how to deploy
capital to high impact communities?
Hope hanger was featured, right?
Uh, we know and love them, uh, the arm of
Vive Church's outreach, uh, but some other
high impact communities that we would
categorize, uh, got awarded on that night.
We call it the overflow impact award.
Step aside, Forbes list.
This is the list.
You want to be on this list.
You want to be on this list.
You want to be part of the, the overflow
night of generosity experience next year.
You know, our, our vision is that
it becomes synonymous with like how
charity want to Water galas have been
Ps Adam: even better.
You know, I'm going to say this fans,
there were a few people there from
prominent tech companies at the event.
And you know, these guys go to event
after event after event, right.
And to hear them say that this
was probably one of the greatest
events they've been to come on.
Uh, was just testament to
how epic the night was.
Uh, it was, and I think it wasn't
just because you're at a classy event.
Yeah.
It's the mission.
Yes.
And the mission was just really exciting.
It's kind of like a vision gala.
Yeah.
That we have at Vive.
Just the energy in the room and the
excitement about bringing breakthrough.
So, that was fun.
Arun: I'll say this, I, I, I checked
my mail, my invite musta, musta
got lost, musta got lost somewhere,
but, because I wasn't there, can
you tell us, what, what's the
future looking like for Overflow?
Cause I think you guys discussed
a lot of stuff that's upcoming.
Oh, okay.
I don't know what you can reveal, but.
Ps Vance: Let's spill some tea.
Uh, I like that.
Yeah, so we celebrated the past, uh,
we gave away money in the present, and
we really gave a preview to the future.
Wow.
Wait, was that planned?
That was, that
Arun: was well said.
Well, I thought you were teeing it up.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, yeah, right.
That's what you wanted to say.
It's almost
Ps Adam: like you teed that up.
Sorry, Vance.
Tell us what's coming.
And then he just rattled it up.
If you know Vance at all, that's Vance.
Arun: That's VanceGT.
That was really
Ps Adam: well said.
He has a, he has a campaign
slogan ready to go at all times.
Ps Vance: It's in the backlog already.
It's just there.
Ps Adam: He just, he goes through
the file, all right, pull the
past, present, future one, yeah.
Ps Vance: Exactly.
Uh, and so it's, it's like whenever
I run for president one day,
it's like you got the Vivek one
liners, you know what I mean?
Just like on point.
Uh, yeah, so we, we really gave a preview,
which I'm calling, and I'll spell the T
on the Hype pod cause that's what we do.
Uh, I'm calling the, the financial.
That's what I thought.
Yeah, for the, for the faith space.
That's what I thought too.
Ps Adam: Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
Yeah, the FOS.
Ps Vance: Yeah, the FOS.
You know, here's the thing, like,
what we revealed is that when you
go to a high impact community,
let's, let's talk about the church,
cause that's what we're a part of.
Uh, Even more than giving, there's
actually a lot of different
transactions that you do, right?
Every single Sunday, Arun, I see
you at the, you know, coffee line.
Right?
I see you lining up for, uh, Vive merch.
And, uh, you're registering for
Brotherhood events and things like that.
All of those are transactions, right?
And what we found is that those
transactions are all happening
on different platforms, from
Square to Stripe to Shopify.
Uh, and the reason why it's a missed
opportunity that they're all in
different platforms, it doesn't provide
a unified profile for the member
or, you know, the congregant, uh,
so that the church or the community
can pursue a deeper relationship.
But if we can unify all those
transactions, every transaction It's
not a missed opportunity anymore.
Every transaction becomes an
opportunity for deeper connection.
And that's something that we've
actually been on, uh, this, I would
say past couple of weeks is we've been
talking about, you know, at the end
of the day, um, all the innovative
things that we've been working on.
That's really what it's about, right?
It's about how do we use technology
to build deeper connection?
If Starbucks can do it,
how much more of a mandate?
There's a church of Jesus Christ.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
I mean, deeper connection is actually,
uh, our word for the Year of Life Church.
Come on.
Deeper connection.
I know it's two words, but
you know, it's an adjective.
Okay.
So you're allowed, you're
allowed to use that.
And, and it's a deeper connection
because that's actually ultimately
how discipleship happens.
Right.
You've got the product of discipleship,
the process of discipleship.
The product of discipleship is a.
If I was to say what's the product
of discipleship, it's a passionate
pursuer of Jesus Christ who's
militant in their kingdom effect.
The process, though, is
through deeper connection.
As I get deeper connection to
the things of God, I actually
become a disciple of God.
And so, we've been looking at deeper
connection from so many levels.
And, uh, you know, it's going to be
a real key focus to the way we do
ministry, the way we do business,
the way we do relationships.
Um, you know, because I think a lot of
churches Even a lot of companies, they
have this weird focus of community,
like you'll talk to people and they'll
be like, Oh, you know, we're just all
about building community buzzword.
Well, that's a, that's a false narrative.
You can't build community because
community is a by product.
Community is a by product of a
deeper connection to something.
So what, why you can have, cause you've
got a limited capacity for community.
You think about, you know, uh, come
new year's, how many people you text.
That's your capacity for community.
Are you going to text family
members and maybe a few friends?
Are you going to text your co workers?
Well, they're a community, but you
have a limited capacity of community.
Your community is actually built around
literally what you're connected to.
So what we see in the church community
is a byproduct of what we're connected
to, which is the mission of Jesus Christ.
When you, if you go to focus, if
you go, if your aim is to build a
community, what you'll actually build
at a certain capacity is clicks.
Because we have a limited capacity
of community, you'll create clicks.
Which actually become toxic
to the wider community.
And so then you'll, instead of having
one toxic person in your community,
you have a toxic group of people.
Because, you ever, you ever taken a
strawberry out of the pundit that's furry?
You have to take all four around
it, because they all get furry.
But it was one strawberry that was toxic.
But it infected the ones around it.
It's like the bad apple.
That's the same with cliques.
But if we focus everyone to a
connection, and make deeper connections,
then actually we, the byproduct
of that is a healthy community.
Ps Vance: It's such a beautiful framework.
I've been on this thing right
now around moments, right?
And how to create core memories.
It was actually one of the pieces
of direction I gave Kim in planning
this night is how can we create
a core memory with everybody?
And I was actually talking to one of the
guests afterwards and he's like, man, you
know, uh, Vance, we try to be generous
in our ministry and things like that.
You've seen it.
Um, we were generous with what we
have, but we were just challenged in
our generosity because they left with.
a gift from us because they
were one of the awards.
They left with a piece of artwork.
They left with leftovers.
They left with swag of
the Overflow Foundation.
And he said he was walking out of the
venue feeling kind of bad because it
looked like they were robbing the place.
And I was like, you know what?
We just made a core memory with him.
And if you're present and intentional
with moments to create core memories,
it actually produces movements, right?
And, and I love that framework of
everybody's throwing around this buzzword.
Hey, it's all about community.
It's all about community.
No, no, like that's exactly right.
You don't know.
How are you facilitating
deeper connection?
And as a, just a natural by product
of that, then you have community.
I felt like at the end of the night.
I didn't call it this, but I felt
like if I, if I asked people, if that
felt like community, if they felt
like they were part of an overflow
community now, they probably say yes.
And they can't wait
Ps Adam: till next year.
Well, what you gave him was an
opportunity or an example of what
it looks like to live higher.
So you think about the church, this is a
value we have at Vive Church is we live
higher because we have deeper connection.
And that.
Is almost an oxymoron to live
higher but deeper Well, we live at
a higher level because we're not
just living for ourselves Exactly,
like I look around my neighbors.
They live every week for themselves But
I'm spending my money on the kingdom.
I'm investing in the church.
I'm advancing people that I didn't
even know yet as we send missions
teams and all this so I'm living higher
So good, but I'm doing it through
a deeper connection to a mission.
Beautiful.
And that is that is the the key
That's the example that you gave him.
Mmm.
Ps Vance: I love
Arun: that That's really beautiful and
like I just wanted to make sure that
we have this time to talk about it
because your company is doing so much
and it's such a strong mission and
you've advanced so much and I think for
You know, the people out there that are
kind of building companies as well to
like, kind of hear success stories a
little bit about what, you know, what
you're doing, what you have planned.
It's, it's really exciting.
Oh, thanks
Ps Vance: man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's we, we love talking about it.
I appreciate being able to
talk about it on the Hypod.
It's our family.
Yes.
And so it's exciting.
The future is
Arun: bright.
It really is.
And like looking back a year, I, the
next thing I wanted to chat about was
chat GPT, but this morning, I don't
know if you guys saw Google dropped
Gemini, which is, yeah, they just dropped
their competitor basically to this.
And so.
Like, things are advancing
so much in the AI space.
I was just curious if, you know,
Overflow is kind of entering that
space at all, or, you know, kind of We
Ps Vance: hope to.
Yeah, yeah, we hope to, for sure.
Um, you know, the stuff we're
doing at VEST, we're doing
actually a ton of AI stuff.
Um, we hope to incorporate it into
Overflow as well, as much as we can
consolidate, uh, unique data sets.
Uh, within the platform, like I said,
if we can own every single transaction
within a church community, uh, then what
we can do is we can serve up, uh, insights
from that data unifying it, right?
But then from there, it's not just
insights, it's recommendation, right?
you know, uh, a lean church staff, if
you give them data and insights, but
not like an easy button to turn those
insights into action, then it's limited.
Right.
But I think that's what AI
allows us to do is things like
auto AI and things like that.
You can then now set, you know, uh,
plans and recurring communications
and personalized communications and
a staff of two can feel like 200.
Right.
Exactly with AI eventually.
Yeah.
So we hope to incorporate that for sure.
I mean, as much as it's related to
finances, you know, I think, I think
Arun: at this point you're, you're
starting to slowly become a data
company for what I'm understanding,
like your question is, and once you
become a data company, you got to,
Ps Vance: isn't that the
differentiator with AI though?
Cause I feel like the LLMs
are going to be commoditized.
The data, the differentiator,
Ps Adam: I think the data
is the differentiator.
I also think that there
is, it's optimized in.
In allowing you to get profile
enhancement and profile optimization
of your target audience, right?
Yes.
It's just, it's what usually took a
long time, you know, with the speed and
the, I guess the, how exponential AI can
actually use your workforce and create
your workforce, you get so much enrichment
around the profile of each person that
you can actually better serve them.
Yes, you know, you're not
just serving useless products.
You're actually serving
them to their needs.
So, so I think that is, but what you've
got is data points now, so many data
points on the individual that actually
is very critical to, to being a perfectly
optimized product, you know, to the,
to the subset, but Gemini launched.
That's cool.
What's the differentiator?
What's the difference?
Cause we got Grock's got personality.
Right.
Grock has humor.
Chachapiti is woke.
Is woke.
Yeah, very woke.
What's Gemini?
Is there like a little, Hey,
this is why you should do Gemini.
So it just dropped
Arun: this morning.
Unfortunately, I was like at work.
I tried to like listen
to some stuff about it.
And so I'll watch the promo videos.
I think it's big claim to fame is
going to be it's like multimodal.
So it can kind of take in.
Video, audio, text, speech, image, all
at once and do it very efficiently.
And so it has like three different levels.
One for like, I think they're
doing Nano, Pro, and then Ultra.
So Ultra is for like the high end like
Ps Adam: scientific use cases.
I feel like they've been
very patient with this.
They have.
I feel like they've had
Gemini the whole time.
Oh, for sure.
But they're like Let's, 'cause
do you guys remember Alpha
Ps Vance: Go?
Arun: Yes.
Yes, yes.
And if you haven't, you've gotta
watch the documentary on YouTube.
Fantastic.
Document.
Go.
Oh, okay.
I, I wanna watch that.
Ps Adam: Fantastic documentary, but yeah.
But here's, here's what I feel
like Google potentially have done.
Very smart.
Mm-Hmm.
. They've allowed open ai Yeah.
To get the market curve of learning.
Mm-Hmm.
Out there.
And then build upon it.
That's actually one of the best industry
applications is let somebody else do
the hard work of learning and then
come over the top with an already
behavioral set that you can build upon.
Arun: Yes.
Interesting.
I heard a different take on it
and I love your opinion, but I
heard that they didn't want to do.
They've had it in their back pocket,
but they knew it would destroy
their search business, which is
Ps Adam: based on it will
destroy their search business.
But that's why they didn't do it.
And then, but it will make a new search
Arun: business.
Right?
And I think they were still trying
to figure out how to monetize.
How do you monetize this?
Right?
And so I was curious what you
think, like, do you think, you
know, they, their hand was forced
or it really was they were patiently
Ps Vance: waiting?
Ooh, that's a good question.
Uh You know, I don't know.
I do know that DeepMind at
Google is actually the OG, right?
So actually, people at OpenAI and things
like that, they were actually doing this
at DeepMind, at Google first, right?
And so, a lot of the times I think that
Google is actually first to market in
terms of R& D on a lot of these things.
Uh, The gap, I think, for Google
historically has been, um, the
difference between being able to take
it from R and D to market, right?
And so that's why they were Amazon Prime
before Amazon Prime in the Silicon Valley.
Remember, you could get like a toothpaste.
Uh, Google express and it was
like even no delivery fee.
I was like, Google's just
losing money on this right now.
And there's all the Google cars everywhere
and stuff like they were, they were
first to self driving cars before
Tesla, you know, all that type of stuff.
And then, you know, you have things like
in R and D, it was a 20 percent project
Gmail and it ended up getting to market
and it's like the number one email client.
Now, Chrome was like an R and D project
and ended up being the number one browser.
So they do know how to
bring things to market.
It's just, I think they do.
So many things, um, that,
uh, they haven't figured out.
It's kind of like Apple, if Apple says
they're going to do something, they're
going to do it and it's going to release
and it's going to be incredible, right?
Google is more of just like, uh, they're
running and gunning, I feel like a little
Ps Adam: bit.
I think they made a few mistakes
along the way, like Google
Glass and stuff like that.
Maybe gun shy a little bit.
It made them like, Oh, that
didn't, that didn't really work.
But
Arun: they were just ahead
of their time now, right?
Like Google Glass now is just.
Yeah, it should've been Google pin.
It should've been Google pin.
It could have been, you know,
some other wearable, but like
Metaclasses, they're now back in.
So yeah, like you said, Apple does
something really well where I think they,
they build the product and the story and
then the tech kind of comes along with it.
Google just says, we're just going to
build amazing tech and we hope something
sticks, you know, but they have so much.
It's a culture,
Ps Vance: right?
Yeah.
I mean, I would say that
Google prides themselves.
I mean, Sergey and Larry,
I mean, nerds, right.
I mean, it's just run by nerds.
And then you got Steve
Jobs as a storyteller,
Ps Adam: but their approach is reverse.
See, most people budget out and
then spend, they'll spend and then
figure out how much did that cost.
And did we make money or did we lose it?
And so it's a reverse engineered.
Yeah.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
And then
Arun: the reverse is true because
actually like the larger topic for
this pod, I kind of wanted to chat
about building teams and stuff.
Um, and then we kind of hear, you know,
Elon took over Twitter and he like cut,
you know, 80 percent of the team, but
like, look how fast they're moving.
Like they've built and changed so much.
Like Twitter has not
moved this fast in years.
No way.
So basically it was like.
What it was for years and now it's just
developing into this new thing, right?
And so I kind of wanted to chat with
you guys because you guys have, you
know Obviously built large entities
and you guys have started from when
it was just individuals at what
point did you guys think, you know?
How do I figure out when I need to scale
my team or is it better to have like a
small team like that so I can operate
Ps Vance: quickly?
Oh man, if you would ask me
two and a half years ago, I'd
probably have a different answer.
I was all about like, you know, grow
at all costs, build the team as big as
possible so that you can grab as much
market share and things like that.
I'm actually appreciating a lot more,
especially cause I'm a software company.
Um, lean and mean.
I love it.
Like I love, uh, trying to
understand operational leverage.
I love just the idea that, okay, I
don't need an, I don't necessarily need
a massive army for what we're doing,
but I want to like seal team six.
Right.
I do want kind of the.
The, the, the Avenger level.
And, and so what I found
is that more bodies is not
necessarily the right answer.
Uh, it's, it's really understanding skill.
It's really understanding like per person,
uh, revenue per person leverage that
you have, um, in terms of productivity.
And we've been a lot more disciplined.
About that.
We've had ebbs and flows
in the company, right?
We've hired, we fired, you know,
all that type of stuff and I'm, I'm
realizing now, okay, uh, hire a bit
slower, fire fast, hire a bit slower.
Um, so that's kind of the
mentality we have currently.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
We're definitely moved into a
zone where we're talent focused.
Yeah.
You know, top tier talent.
How do we get the best talent?
How do we get the best
of the best on the team?
Um, you know, because you can have a lot
of stuff that feels like a lot of interns.
Sometimes the CEO, you,
you, you stop and you think.
Is my job here to optimize your life?
Is my job here is the whole reason you're
working here so that I can enhance your
life or are you here building my thing?
Yeah, and after a while when you've
got low level Probably talent or a
lot of people you feel like you exist
just to help them live a work life
Yeah, you're just like managing.
Yeah, and how do I make
your work life better?
And how do I you know?
Energize you with the vision rather
than hey Let me give you a whole problem
and you just bring it back fixed How do
I get you just to own this at a level
where I don't have to think about it?
And I think that comes down to top tier.
I think I mean there is it's
pretty hard to dispute that
elon is an absolute genius.
This guy is a master of Of
understanding companies organizations
scalability, uh, he's got creativity
on another dimension Uh, but he
executes I think it's what you said.
He fires fast.
He doesn't have time to play woke
games Nope, and he doesn't even
really care about the backlash.
He actually said this quote.
That's that's That was epic.
I think it was in the
conversation around Bob Iger.
Oh, yeah, that kind of stuff He's like,
you know I don't possess that that desire
to have friends or something or something
around that like that's such a hindrance
to life When you need people to like
you And and I thought of that I'm like,
it's so true You you really cagey if you
really get around people liking you now We
don't live in the billionaire club where
we can care less with people like us.
Yeah, we're trying to you
know Deeper connections.
We're trying to build people, but I
think it could be a stalemate too that
if you Act too slow because you're more
worried about, you know, how people
think of you rather than executing on the
Ps Vance: vision.
And, you know, to be honest, I feel
like, and I don't know Elon directly,
so I don't know exactly his motivation,
but by his actions, I feel like he's
more compassionate than the virtue
signaling people that I see in the media.
Here's the thing.
I'm so grateful that he
actually purchased it.
I don't know if it's going to be
a good monetary, uh, thing for
him in the short term, but I'm
so grateful he purchased Twitter.
Now X two years ago, you
couldn't say anything.
Nope.
Yeah.
You couldn't say anything
on social media in general.
Definitely not Twitter.
You didn't say
Ps Adam: anything.
Now there is no doubt.
It's the best social media platform
out there by like, by there's
no, there's no second, right?
Like check this
Ps Vance: out.
Uh, the all in podcast, right?
Probably one of the.
The top 10 business
pockets in the world now.
Even then, they've switched from like,
I would say pretty like center left.
I think they're all like going right now.
And I'm not like even
trying to get political.
All I'm saying is they had Tucker Carlson.
Right.
on the podcast the other day.
I heard about that.
I want to watch that.
Two years ago they would
have never had Tucker.
What are we talking about?
But because X has created a place
truly where people can be on the left
truly and on the right truly and say
stuff in a public square that actually
has scale it's changed the dynamic.
I feel like people that have
had certain views have been, um,
uh, more courageous nowadays.
And I think people are
finding each other now.
And it's kind of like, uh,
provided a better balance.
I feel like, um, where it's felt.
Um, more divisive in the past because
literally you couldn't say stuff like
you couldn't say words and or else it's
Ps Adam: like I feel like you, all the
people that reacted, remember you had
all that big backlash, like I'm canceling
Twitter and I'm off it, all those people
have definitely started to come back.
Because threads is a waste of time and
it's just like a little echo chamber.
Everyone's encouraging each other.
It's so weak It's like I ate a banana
today, you know, it's so so weird that
people go actually I don't like that
world Yeah, it feels like it feels really
stale and it feels really clinical, right?
Whereas you come to X you feel like
you're in the real world, right?
You feel like you got
human interaction, right?
Even if you don't like it so much.
It's kind of like Oh, it's, it's
kind of abrasive, but that is at
the core of what we do as humans
Arun: really is.
And it's the core of
like innovation, right?
If you don't allow people to kind
of say their view one way or the
other and like, listen to it and
take that in, you just never change.
Like you'll never, you'll have
this like group think, right?
Everybody's too afraid to say anything.
And that's kind of what I feel
like every like social media
was going to, it was like.
Like you said, I can't say
anything, so I'm just going to
say, yeah, I ate a banana today
and I can't say anything else.
And so now you're not really
thinking about something new, but
like Tucker Carlson on that podcast,
I've only heard him and like stuff
about him, but like just hearing
him actually talk about his points.
Like if you agree with them or not,
what was the main points he kind
of went through, like all of this,
Ps Vance: but I would say that, uh,
one of the themes that he was bringing
up is that a lot of the, the fringe
ideas that have now become popularized.
is actually a product of
really high privilege.
And so, it's this idea that, you know,
there are, there's a certain group
of people, he, this is his words, um,
you know, middle aged white women.
basically in Wyoming that don't like
him, um, that have all these fringe
views that have now become popularized
because when you get to a certain
status in a certain level of luxury,
you start caring about luxury beliefs.
Oh yeah.
And so he has this whole thesis.
That's ESG.
Yeah.
He has this whole thesis of that,
of climate change, of, you know, all
these different types of things, uh,
based on kind of this, this hypothesis.
Right.
And I think there's
actually some validity.
to it because basically his whole
thing was, you know, people that are
not in that position to even have
those luxury beliefs, they're not
talking about those things, right?
It's not as important.
Actually, a really prominent VC,
uh, recently told me he was giving a
lecture at Stanford and, um, everybody
had the pronouns on their name tag.
And so he gives a speech and at the
end of his speech, he actually tells
each of them, uh, just like literally
in the class at Stanford, he's like,
Hey, by the way, If you want to go
to the global marketplace and you all
pull this type of stuff in the global
marketplace, you will get eaten alive.
Because there's people in
Asia, there's people in Africa
that do not understand this.
And so he wasn't taking a political view.
He was just saying, hey look, you
know, maybe we've been in a bubble.
Maybe there's some fringe ideas that we've
popularized that's actually bubble ideas.
Ps Adam: Not global ideas.
It's not just rich individuals.
I think it's it's wealthy Western mindset.
Yes that Has not had to think
a day in their life about where
they're gonna get their food.
So that's
Ps Vance: what he said Right,
Ps Adam: so so so that's where we
come up with gender ideologies We're
actually inventing issues now So
that we have something to fight over
rather than fighting for life and
fighting to sustain life and to be
alive Well, that's and that's That is
a byproduct of wealth, right, is where
your, your views get skewed on what
actually matters in life and, um, yeah,
that's, that's for me, climate change.
That's like the thing I've always,
and you know, I've gone on this
podcast before, got some ridicule,
uh, from people about climate change.
When the end of the day, it's not.
For me, it's just it's just another
way to juice money out of people and
make it a political point and it gets
everybody in fear And that's the problem.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because
People say Oh point to the science, right?
And I think a lot of these things
it's kind of like hey let's just
be intellectually honest, right?
Because, okay, cool.
You can say in this graph that
climate is changing, right?
But it's really, what's not
intellectually honest is saying
something like, Oh, and the reason
why is because we drive Fords, right?
Like the reason why is
because like we created.
But like temperatures have
drastically changed, um, over time.
Uh, and so I think
Ps Adam: it's See, see, okay,
I even carry a little bit of a,
a differential point on that.
I think, I think climate
is constantly changing.
We just don't know if it's
cyclical and if it's changing
for the better or for the worse.
Okay, so, so the, the earth
is actually built for carbon.
Mm hmm.
That's what trees Yeah, replace
carbon for oxygen, right?
The world is built masterfully by design
by our creator to absorb and to repress.
So over years, you see a cyclical
change where you'll see patterns
that are maybe hotter years, colder
years, all these kinds of things.
We just think in such a little minute.
Pattern that we've been recording the
temperatures of like, oh, no, we're in
a desperate time and we use that But
you don't know over thousands of years.
We haven't been recording data that long.
We've got carbon dating We've got
different things that we try and measure
off But we haven't been collecting
the data long enough to see what so
we're reacting and I actually believe
that in time We'll look back and go.
Oh, man, that was an
overreaction That was weird.
We spent thousands of dollars
on something that did nothing.
You realize
Ps Vance: that what perpetuates
overreaction is actually just industry.
Yeah.
Because I've been in conferences,
literally, uh, you know, prominent
like Sass conferences where
people are promoting these things.
They're investing in these things.
They're, they're propagating narratives.
And then you look behind the veil and
it's because they have a Sass product
to calculate the carbon footprint.
You know what I mean?
So it's just like, Oh,
You're grifting off this.
And so
Ps Adam: for me, I agree.
There's no longer a cause.
Right, right.
So when it comes down to electric vehicles
and all these things, you know, we, we,
there's even proof that it's not even
net new benefit to the environment.
So for me, it's like, well, I
think we've got the wrong focus.
I think we should be look at, look
at taking plastics out of the ocean.
I think we should look at
where we dispose of trash.
Like how, how are we, how are we
caretaking for the environment rather than
putting our focus on global emissions?
Because we still need a heat.
We still need to actually fund factories.
We still need to progress as society.
And sometimes these things are
actually doing people out of jobs work.
I'm humans first.
And a part of being human
first means let's preserve our
ocean so we can enjoy them.
And,
Ps Vance: and going back to your
team question, I think the mark
of a good team and being able to
mobilize a really talented team
is at the end of the day, vision.
And so I kind of, I kind of blame us too,
in the sense that, okay, the people around
pushing climate change, they've been.
Better visionaries.
Mm-Hmm.
around this fear induced vision.
Very good than, than people
giving an alternative vision.
Mm-Hmm.
vision.
And so this is really a call to arms.
Like, if you don't agree
with that, yeah, okay.
We need to create a better vision.
Right.
We gotta articulate a better vision.
Yeah.
No, and
Arun: I think, I think that kind of
ties back into also just being able
to talk about this stuff, right?
Like being able to have this point of
view and then do the research and, but
if you can't even talk about it, you
can't even get to the point where you
do research and provide stats and, you
Ps Vance: know.
Ps Adam: Which X is allowing
us to have the conversation.
Which X is
Ps Vance: allowing us to
Arun: have.
And I think that's also a question
I have for you guys when you
guys are building this team.
How do you guys, you know, input
that feedback culture for your
team and allow that to happen?
Especially early on when you're
building it, uh, like maybe like
the first ten people of your team.
How do you guys allow that to happen?
Ps Vance: Oh, so I'll
tell you what not to do.
Okay.
I did one, you know, early on
we did an anonymous survey.
Ooh.
Feedback.
Arun: Okay,
Ps Vance: wow.
This is so stupid.
I'm never doing that again because
people have courage, like, like, um,
unbridled, unhealthy I would say.
Yeah.
Unhealthy courage when
things are anonymous and
they're out for blood, right?
And um, and maybe I'm, I'm being,
uh, maybe I'm still bitter, but,
uh, maybe they're not out for blood.
It's
Ps Adam: that and they make up cohesions.
Hey, everyone's saying, or
everyone wants a Coke zero machine.
No, no, you want that.
Ps Vance: Exactly.
And so we, we don't do that anymore
because what we found was that when
you don't have to put your name
behind it, uh, you, you actually
have unbridled feedback that becomes,
uh, more hurtful than helpful.
Right.
So that's one thing.
to not do.
Another thing that we realized is
how to create a no gossip culture.
Um, and so in early stage teams, uh,
like Pastor Adam was saying, feedback
would be somebody saying, well, you know,
Vance, everybody is saying, or people
are saying, or they said that, and then
they'll give a point of feedback to me.
And so what I told my team is like,
cause I heard it so many times.
I was like, okay, if
you ever said they said.
Or people said, and you don't give
me their name, I'm assuming it's you.
Right.
But if you're a legitly in a conversation
where somebody is talking about
another person behind their back in the
company, and they're not present to be
able to advocate for themselves to be
able to respond, it is your duty now.
to tell them, Hey, we actually have
a no gossip policy at Overflow.
Um, I'd actually recommend you taking
that frustration directly to the person.
Uh, and if you don't loop back
to me in the next 24 hours, I'm
going to flag it up to them myself.
And it's been the healthiest.
I know that sounds a little bit
like weird and harsh, maybe.
But like it's created such a healthy
culture because now people are just
actually Talking directly to each other
instead of behind each other's back.
It's so unhealthy.
Yeah.
Ps Adam: It's the culture element
that you just talked about.
You know, I think the earlier your
team that you're building, you want to
establish what culture do we have here?
And so we want to direct culture,
but something that we framed
from the very beginning, uh,
even when you're on staff was.
We're a, we've got a culture of
contributing, not criticizing.
Exactly.
Like, I can pay anybody to,
I can literally, I don't even
have to pay people to criticize.
Yeah.
I can, I can just get a team
of people in here and the first
thing we'll do is criticize.
Because if I was to ask
you, hey, could you review?
The moment I say the word review,
you're already going to how I
could better it, so you're going
to highlight all the criticism.
And we're, that's why I, I, I
don't love things like Yelp because
it's so much critics, everyone's
critical and you know, but, but it
takes no brainpower to be a critic.
It takes brainpower to be a contributor.
How can I make this better?
And so it's just framing the culture.
When we come together and we
discuss stuff, we're going to
come from a contributing mindset.
Yeah.
Arun: No, actually on that topic, do
you guys value one over the other, like
especially early on when you have to
build a product, you really want the
most talented team, but yes, if it's not
the right culture fit, does that make?
Oh yeah, for sure.
It's
Ps Vance: culture over talent, for sure.
Culture over talent, for sure.
Every
Ps Adam: day of the week.
Yeah, I would definitely put culture at
the top, and then talent a close second.
A close second, okay.
I'd definitely put, because I've
had A lot of culture and no talent.
That's true.
And you're like, I'm, I'm glad
you love this and I'm glad
you're echoing everything.
But man, can we do something?
You know what I mean?
Uh, could you contribute?
Yeah.
So I think, uh, but you know,
the most talented person that
is toxic for your culture is the
bad apple you're talking about.
Yeah.
Arun: Exactly.
It can destroy a whole company
Ps Adam: really.
It can destroy a company.
It can, uh, split a church.
It can do so much.
Yeah.
You
Ps Vance: know what I think is
overrated when people say, well.
You know, the healthiest cultures,
you know, allow for disagreement.
The healthiest cultures
allow for feedback.
I think that's overrated.
I think that, um, that's really
just for people that want to have
no holds bar on their disagreement.
Having that culture actually makes
people lazy to not be persuasive.
Right to not actually think through
something to try to be winsome in that
and they just want to have culture
so they could just like complain.
Yeah, right.
Um, here's the thing.
It doesn't have to be groupthink though.
Even if you don't highlight.
Oh, it's okay to disagree here It doesn't
have to be groupthink because you can
still bring in net new information.
You can still bring in net new Uh,
insights that is complimentary,
not rooted in conflict, right?
Arun: Do you think it's
more the approach then?
Because I actually am like maybe a person
that likes the idea of being challenged
and being able to challenge ideas.
So do you think it's just more about
how you approach that situation?
For sure.
Because the culture should
be a challenge, right?
Like you should be able to
Ps Vance: challenge an idea.
And challenge is
Arun: different from disagreement.
Got it.
Yes.
Okay.
So not just complaining about it, but
come with, like you're saying, net new.
Exactly.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And so then I mean, you're
talking to the challenger.
Right.
That's
Ps Adam: true.
I just wanted to make sure.
I thought I'm the one
challenging everybody's ideas.
Ps Vance: You know what I mean?
But, uh
Ps Adam: Yeah, I just out challenged them.
No, I definitely, I definitely,
you know, naturally bent towards,
let's challenge this idea.
Let's, let's poke holes at it.
Let's make sure it's kind of watertight.
Uh, and, and that's, so I know
that I already think that way.
And so, uh, I'm, I'm not going to create
a, you know, a room full of lemmings
that just say yes and go with the flow.
And, you know, just praise
every idea that comes out.
Like I'm going to provoke.
And I think that if.
There's a healthy environment
where you feel challenged to
bring something intellectual.
Yes.
Not just something contradictory.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Like bring something that's
still complimentary, but
it's, it's, it's intelligent.
Don't just pick the opposite point because
you feel like that's your contribution.
Exactly.
That's right.
Ps Vance: Yeah,
Arun: no, definitely.
And then when you guys are, um, as
part of like Vespa, when you guys are
looking for, you know, new teams and
ideas, do you guys pick the idea or do
you guys pick the team when you guys
are trying to invest in another company?
Ps Vance: It's kind
Ps Adam: of both.
And yeah, it's both.
It's, you know, we, as Vance alluded
to before, we're very heavily
stacked now towards AI companies.
Um, you know, it's becoming a major part
of our portfolio, but you know, we're
looking for, uh, you know, I always
say, I always say this, okay, now this
sounds obnoxious, but I'm pretty smart.
So if I don't understand
an idea, then I'm not.
I'm not that stupid to go.
This is a bad idea Like I want to be able
to pretty much pick it up in the moment
and go hey I think I can see a pathway for
that Um, so if I can't really understand
it and get excited about it from the
pitch Then i'm like path I I don't want
to have to be convinced more at the same
time I'm looking for a personality that
is extremely bullish, that is extremely
convicted, because we know this, building
a company is the most difficult thing,
it's so tough, and if I can talk you
out of your idea, or I can put so much
doubt in it in our pitch moment that
you're kind of like second guessing,
well guess what, no, no, you have to
convince me, and I will challenge you.
People's ideas.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and I think, uh, I think
that is the element that we're always
looking for is both personality and the
idea, the product, you know, can we,
can we get a good mesh towards that?
Cause one can't work without the
Ps Vance: other.
Arun: For sure.
The reason I asked is because it seems
like at least my investment thesis,
but this is like the crypto space.
It was more of, you saw a
lot of these ideas pop up.
There was a ton of ideas.
They would come up.
They're all kind of similar,
a little bit different.
But the thing that always seemed to, you
know, the, the coins or the tokens that
took off were a good solid team behind it.
Sure.
And so it always felt like the
team kind of had to lead the idea.
The idea couldn't lead the team.
Ps Vance: Did you do a
lot of crypto investing?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
So how you doing?
How's the portfolio?
Arun: Because I started back in like 2017.
Yeah, yeah, good.
Now it's, you know, still, you know,
I've been through the ebbs and flows,
you know, haven't sold on time, but
you know, like, you know, I'm learning.
But, um, yeah, so 2017, like, you
know, it's been a good ride, but.
And now I'm in the space building.
So I get to kind of see,
you know, how it's done.
Um, and I think we're getting
close to another, uh, cycle.
Crypto's pumping a little bit, guys.
I mean, not financial advice.
Not
Ps Adam: financial advice, yeah.
It's going up.
I think, I think, you know, in
the crypto space, there were
obviously bad players, right?
And I think what it was
is a beautiful lesson.
Uh that you've gone on you've got like
a university education in crypto now
just from being in the space And I think
within that you have to differentiate.
Yeah, cool We might have had some
really good teams on bad products
Because I mean you think of how
well nfts went And they're rubbish.
It was like, a lot of it was
a scam and it was just hype.
There was a lot of unknown.
There was a contribution of COVID
and people bored and felt they were
rich and all this kind of stuff.
And this is my net new way I'm going to be
an art dealer of NFTs or whatever it was.
But it was in that season where
I had to, I had to several times.
Say Vince, please explain it
to me again, just explain NFTs.
Cause I feel like I'm smart, but
this one's really annoying me.
And, uh, we went rounds on it and
just was never sitting in me to
go, I'm not investing in that.
I'm not investing in that.
And it turns out it was really bogus.
So I think what you do though, is
you go to take away, what did that
season of that crypto surge do?
Well, now we're settling
into some infrastructure.
And you're in a rails company, so
you're building some really great
rails, which is like the best place
to be if there is another, you know,
global economy or global coins that we
move towards, that's going to create
an infrastructure in the future.
Arun: Yeah, no, definitely.
And I think the one part about that's
kind of scary, like talking about this
team stuff was doing some research and
then like all this stuff that happened
with open AI and Sam getting fired.
And then maybe, you know, the whole team
going with him, it was like, was that,
uh, in your mind, uh, an idea of him being
such a good leader that his team was.
Kind of following him or they saw, you
know, the potential of open AI crashing.
He was like monetary We need to go with
him like wherever he goes we go and like
Ps Vance: I feel like he He had a lot
of affection from a lot of people.
Yeah, I mean it was just clear right, uh
from the backlash on Twitter x where a lot
of the former yc companies or current yc
companies were just really backing them
and saying hey sam went to bat for me.
I'm like Sam all the way.
Um, to the employees, literally hundreds
of them filing a protest saying that
we'll walk if you don't bring Sam back.
700 of the 770.
It's like wild, right?
So like, I don't know if you can
deny like, I don't know if he's
a good leader or not, but people
have a lot of affection for him.
So, so people were really rocking with
them and behind him and ultimately so much
pressure that they had to bring him back.
Well, I
Ps Adam: mean.
I don't know if it's a real narrative,
if the employees were behind Sam, or
They were just nervous about their stock.
Right.
I've heard both takes.
I've heard.
See, if I'm in that position, is it
because I really love that CEO or
crap if the CEO goes my stocks gonna
tank and and at that point I always
say this everyone loves a missional
statement with their company, but
take them Take the salary away.
Are you going to be there for the mission?
No, you're not take the mission away.
You're still gonna be there
for the salary most probably.
So it's always, I always put salary
first in these, in these scenarios.
I also don't know what is going on.
I don't, I haven't, I feel like
I've missed out on a key piece
of the, do you want to hear some
Arun: of the rumors that's going on?
So I would,
Ps Adam: because I'm on boards.
I've been a founder and I've been in the
board seat and I'm still in board seats.
And I have to think through
as a board member in our board
conversations with different
technology companies that I'm on.
What would have to happen?
Ps Vance: To fire the
CEO, that's a big deal.
To fire the CEO,
Ps Adam: that's a big deal.
Generally, it's only
for complete misconduct.
Yeah, yeah.
But it doesn't seem like that is evident.
So I'd love to hear what are the
Arun: theories.
Yeah, and for it to be misconduct,
that would have come out by now.
Yeah, I feel like that's a one.
Sure.
Ps Vance: There's a legal thing.
If you're on the
Ps Adam: board you go,
Hey, it was misconduct.
Has the board said anything?
No, no, no.
So I feel like it's not
Ps Vance: that.
So he found AGI.
That is
Arun: the rumor.
So the rumor is he found
artificial general intelligence.
It's called Q star internally.
It got leaked.
I've heard about this.
So there was a whistleblower
that leaked this.
And so it was out of fear of what that
could, you know, potentially become that
some of the board members were like, I'm
not sure where Sam is going with this.
Cause Sam is just super bullish.
Yeah.
Super bullish.
And he had his hands in
a lot of different areas.
And so they were,
Ps Vance: Twitch or former Twitch
CEO, I guess, Emmett Shear is
a little bit more conservative.
Doesn't want AGI to take over the
world, but Sam, I think is cool with it.
Ps Adam: The Q star is the AGI element.
Yeah.
Ps Vance: So
Arun: they have it.
so explain AGI for the audience.
Yeah.
So it's this idea of like,
um, disadvancement in AI to
the point where it can make.
logical decisions beyond just,
you know, replicating data that it
has and actually creating net new.
So it's kind of like Skynet.
Yeah.
Like
Ps Vance: it's Terminator.
It really is.
Ps Adam: But I heard it could
do mathematical equations.
Yes.
It went from like a language model to now
mathematics, which actually then opens
up code breaking and all that breaking
Arun: encryption and crypto
becomes potentially obsolete.
Ps Adam: But that was
the original Google fear.
The Google fear.
Was that if if this gets into like
it's cool if it's like language and
emotions and stuff like that But the
moment it gets into math, we're done.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's no encryption that it cannot
undo right massive So blockchain and
all this kind of stuff that that you're
Arun: building on that's why you were
asking what you know we're talking
about the investment I brought
this up because That was a fear.
So I was like, you know, it's better to be
a little bit safer with this stuff because
you just don't gets in the wrong hands
and then all of a sudden sell, pull out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I gotta go guys.
.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
I mean that seems, it
seems for me reasonable.
Yeah.
If the enough for the board to react.
For sure.
If the board are like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
We're crossing territory that
maybe we always said we wouldn't.
Yeah.
And then we could pull the trigger
for a board to act that unanimously.
Yeah.
Like, I mean.
Well, you, a board usually seven people.
I don't know how many people on the
board, but like for seven people to all
act together and unanimously and fire
the CEO, who's a superstar superstar.
It's not like he's unknown.
He's, he's on magazines, right?
He's like the Silicon Valley
pinup boy right now to, to
make that move and threaten the
stock position and everything.
You have to be thinking more than
financial gain on building this company.
You have to think about the
future of humanity almost.
And that's a weird position to be in.
If that's what they're doing.
Arun: It's tough because, I think
what happened was, like, Microsoft
has a huge investment here, right?
And so, initially they were like,
Oh, we can't lose this investment,
so they're gonna bring them on.
But you don't know what's gonna happen
once you bring OpenAI into, like,
a fully regulated, massive company.
That might have just, you know,
really taken that whole thing down.
I think the end game was
never to join Microsoft.
I think Microsoft, obviously, was willing.
But I don't think there was a Sam for Sam.
Yeah.
I think that was his, they literally
Ps Vance: hired him at one point.
Yeah.
That's what I heard over the
Arun: weekend, over the weekend.
He got fired, hired by Microsoft.
The whole team was going
to come and then they,
Ps Adam: they brought
him back and he resigned.
And went to OpenAI, back to OpenAI.
I think it just
Arun: never materialized,
like that deal with Microsoft.
Ps Vance: He didn't accept the offer.
But it was funny because, uh, the
ex Twitch CEO became CEO of OpenAI.
Oh yeah, right.
And then got fired.
Yeah.
He, he, he tweeted that, uh, and
Ps Adam: this is I was just
trying to make a great film.
This is
Ps Vance: the weird thing,
like, what do we call it?
He exed?
Or like tweeted is just like, I feel
like the verb still, Oh, he posted it.
So, you know, uh, Emmett, he,
he posted, um, world record for
shortest tenure as CEO of a company.
It was like an afternoon.
Ps Adam: Imagine if you
got a signing bonus.
Arun: That'd be nice.
Ps Vance: Hey, at the end of the
day, I do think a lesson that I
kind of took away from it and I
don't know the details of this.
So.
Probably maybe there was validity in
it, but generally from a principal
standpoint, I've always felt that
companies, churches, organizations
should not be run by boards, right?
They, they, they should be run by
founders, um, at the end of the day.
And that's why, whether or not it
was a right decision, that's why.
When a decision that a board makes
that is so drastic like this, that
threatens the operational viability
of a company, there's going to be
Arun: backlash.
Can you give us some insight
into how that happens?
Like, how a board gets too much power?
Ps Vance: Well, we've seen churches, we've
seen churches be, they'll call it elder
run or board run, and it's ineffective.
Yep.
Is it just money?
Ps Adam: Like, how does that?
No, it's not money at all.
It's got to do with time.
I think in those settings, right, you get
some power brokers, you know what I mean?
So you think about a setting as
a, I'm a founder of a vibe church.
I built a board, you know,
we invested everything.
We gave up everything to build the thing.
We built on the back of sacrifice.
And so we built a board and the early
board members are with you in the mission.
But, you know, over time, you replace
board members as maybe they, you get more
expertise, or, you know, they serve for
a season and they need to come off the
board, and the board can morph and change.
Is it on
Arun: you, the founder, to decide
when that is, or is it the board?
Ps Adam: The original board is selected,
but then the board votes on new members,
you know, and all that kind of stuff.
And so, you know, it's a
very democratic process.
But you've actually built a company
that you've now submitted yourself
under, you know, to, to certain degrees.
And, uh, it's a very humbling process to
say now, Hey, this thing that I built.
You, you could determine whether I still
do this and, uh, obviously, you know, that
comes from in a church you want godly men
and women who are literally governance
and they've got an anointing for that.
Uh, but you also want someone
who's, Hey, we believe you're
a radical, amazing leader.
We don't want to handcuff that.
We want this to be, you know, exciting.
But, you know, if you get, you know,
we've seen churches and same with
companies, you get some, some power,
you know, hungry people who maybe,
Get a little offended or whatever.
Yeah.
Then it can get really squirrely.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
Cause I would say that.
A good board member
understands their role, right?
A good board member is not
there to operate the business.
A good board member understands they're
not meant to make managerial decisions.
The day to day, you know, um, even down to
like, uh, staff salaries and stuff, like,
the board is not there to micromanage.
Right.
The board is there to provide
some governance, right?
If the CEO does go off the
rails, for sure, they have
a fiduciary responsibility.
That's probably their biggest
responsibility, hire and fire CEOs, right?
Um, but again, like to fire
a CEO, that's pretty drastic.
It should be misconduct.
It should be some sort of
like pretty crazy thing.
Um, or they just like are
not performing, right?
Like literally the, maybe the company
hasn't grown for four years, right?
Something like that.
Then, yeah, maybe because they
have a fiduciary responsibility.
Outside of that, really, they're
there to provide some insights
and connections, some open doors.
Yeah.
Wisdom.
They're there to be part of the
conversation, but they understand
their role is not to run the company.
And as soon as you get a board member that
oversteps that, that's when it becomes.
In effect, in my opinion, because
ineffective, because you have somebody
that's thinking about your business 2
percent of their time trying to tell you
what to do when you're thinking about
110 percent of your time, that's just
like, that math doesn't make sense.
Arun: So then it's like the importance
of the founder at that time when
you're forming the board to make sure
you're forming it with the idea of
this is my company and you should.
Ps Adam: You've got to
establish that for sure.
And I think you want people who love you.
Yes.
Who want the best for the
company on a personal level.
This
Arun: is more about
Ps Adam: a deeper connection, a deeper
connection, uh, because they actually
believe in your best interest as well.
But at the same time, you, you really
want to have someone who's run the play.
Yeah.
You want someone who's
been at that level before.
And you know that they have run
the play and they're okay with you
exceeding what they've done before.
You know what I'm saying?
So it's a very unique subset.
And I highly recommend if you're forming
a board, you want to put everybody on a
12 month term so that it's not an awkward.
Hey.
You know, I've talked to the rest of
the board, you know, but it's it's
an opportunity to re up, uh, through
invitation, uh, that we put before the
board, you know, and a lot of people will,
we've had different people on the board
at Vive before who have served brilliantly
in one season, but we've needed to free
up a space to someone who's, you know,
who's grown a church to 10, 000 people.
And so we're like, hey, That's
going to be useful for us on
insights and what we're doing.
And so they've run the play before.
Arun: Yeah, that makes sense.
And then in terms of the size of the
board, do you guys like a smaller, more
nimble board or is it like, you know, too
many cooks in the kitchen kind of aspect
Ps Vance: of the board?
I mean, as lean as you can be,
you know, for a VC backed startup.
Uh, the dynamic really
determined is determined by the
money that you raise, right?
So that's where the board,
uh, seat negotiation comes in.
Every time you take money, they're
going to want some level of board seat.
And that's when you can negotiate.
Okay.
One or two and things like that.
You always want to try to negotiate
the least amount of seats.
Give they, they say, give up.
the least amount of seats as possible.
And from a practical standpoint to your,
to your point, I mean, you know, just
imagine I was actually, you guys got to
listen to a visa on acquired podcasts.
So good.
But at some point.
They had 20 board members and the
CEO at the time would invite all
of the spouses to sit in the board
meetings as well because without the
spouses, apparently like they fought
too much and so they thought it was
going to be like, uh, a situation
where they'd be on better behavior if
their spouse was sitting behind them.
But basically the, the podcast
explains how they got nothing
done at these board meetings.
It's just too big.
Like there's just too
many people in the room,
Ps Adam: you know, I think you want to.
Uh, keep it nimble because look, from
a practical example, coordinating
board meetings and people are
all over the place, time zones,
conflicts, all that kind of stuff.
And then you've got a list of apologies
from people who can't make the board
meeting and that kind of stuff.
So that's just practical.
Um, I think too few and
it's, um, too one sided.
Uh, so, so if you only have three
board members, then that's very out of
balance because You just need to win
one other person and be persuasive.
Right, right, right.
I think five to seven is probably the
ideal board size in my experience.
Um, five works really brilliant.
Uh, and seven, if you feel like these
extra two board seats would be, um, an
asset because they've actually got so
much, maybe connections or, uh, they,
they want to lead with generosity,
you know, with that kind of stuff.
Because there is an expectation,
I think, on a church board.
Uh, there is an expectation that
as a board member, you're actually
not just directing, you're leading.
You're leading with, you know, investing
into the vision, you know, uh, a large,
uh, part of your, your income is going
towards the church at another level.
So it's not just a nice seat.
It's an expectation.
Exactly.
And so I think, yeah, the
way you structure a board.
Is very important.
Yeah.
But it's not everything.
Mm-Hmm.
. Because there, the involvement of
the board is actually very small.
Oh, yeah.
Your lead strategy team is way, that's
the most important thing, I think.
Way more important.
Yeah.
Yes.
Because they're the ones every
day in the bunker with you.
Right.
Taking grenades.
Yeah, definitely.
And firing back.
Arun: Right.
. But I, there's, I just wanna touch
on one more part of this, and
which is the, the risk of taking
in like BC money for example.
And they do get that.
Is there, is there something that you
guys look into when you guys were doing
this and you took in money and maybe had
to, you know, give up a seat where there
was some risk in I needed this money,
but that poison pill on the board could
start to affect, you know, for sure.
It was like, you gotta be really, I've
heard a lot of like friends that have
gone in this and they say, I regret
taking BC money cause now I'm working.
Ps Vance: I would say that, uh, the
overflow board, I've been lucky because,
you know, we have a very broad spectrum of
perspective, um, I would say, but there's
nobody on the board that, uh, is stepping
over the line that I talked about, right?
At the end of the day, there, there
is opinion, uh, but there is trust
that, okay, but this is, Vance
is running the company and we, we
trust them, uh, to run the company.
And so I think that's
what makes every board.
Not toxic is if they don't step over the
stories that I've heard that become toxic
is when they do step over that line Yeah,
right when they want to like make board
meetings for hours and go through every
line in the spreadsheet and they want
to like Make the decision for the CEO.
And that's kind of like, okay, you've
overstepped and now you're making
this ineffective and slowing us
Ps Adam: down.
Yeah.
They're called board bullies and they,
they definitely love to get a little
power trip out of bullying the founder.
And, uh, you know, sometimes
it's, you do get this too.
You do get people flexing on a
board to other board members.
It's almost like I'm going to be
the one to ask the most questions
and they're redundant questions.
And half the time you're like.
Oh, just stop.
Um, but, but I think, so, so if I'm
speaking to founders, definitely
consider where you take your money.
For sure.
I think a discipline of founders is not
just taking the first available money,
because there's money going to come
from different places, and probably if
it's going to come from somewhere, it's
going to come from multiple places.
So you want to, not just, because money's
money, but what you get with that money is
the access, maybe the chemistry of who's
going to make up your board, uh, what's
their background, and do you get on?
So I would be Telling founders,
talk to the potential board member.
Yeah.
Before you receive the money.
Mm-Hmm.
have a conversation.
Maybe go out for a meal.
Mm.
Good.
Good.
There.
There's nothing wrong with that to
go, do we actually get on or are they
like, are they got really misaligned
values in their personal life?
That would definitely
come into a board moment.
Mm-Hmm.
. And just maybe have the
reserve the right to bow out.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Because you are doing relationship
with them, by the way.
You are doing
Ps Vance: relationship for a wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Arun: And I think like.
Maybe the co founder relationship
is probably the only thing that's
probably like a bigger deal, right?
Then yeah, that's probably the
biggest deal for sure, right?
But other than that, it's in
that in your board, right?
Like right because they make you
know, the bigger decisions but like
between you and your co founder if
you have a co founder I think that it
Ps Adam: depends what position the co
founders in you as a CTO or you know,
CMO You know those kinds of things.
I think you really need to figure out
like it is but the board the board
is I would say it's, it's integral.
It's not critical.
Hmm.
Yep.
Yep.
That's
Arun: fair.
Thanks guys.
It was a great pod.
Yeah.
Come on.
Educational pod.
Ps Vance: I think that was great.
We covered a lot of ground.
And this
Arun: is the second to
last part of the year.
No way.
Wow, man.
December great year.
I think next time we'll reflect, reflect
Ps Vance: on that.
That would be great.
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Ps Adam: We'll have some moments.
March 6th,
Ps Vance: everybody.
March six.
We are bringing the hype.
Community Together.
That's right.
March 6th in the Silicon Valley
at the Vive Church building.
Yeah, we're calling it Flowcon because
we're going to partner with Overflow
on this, but we're really calling
all Hype Pod community to be there.
We'll get landing pages up
Ps Adam: soon.
How many spots are we opening up again?
Did we decide on that?
I think we're going to
Ps Vance: max it at 200.
Um, just because we are
going to have breakouts.
It's going to be really intentional.
We're going to be doing
experiences and things like that.
And so, um, you know, will there maybe be
space for more if we want to expand it?
Maybe, but the, the, the suite
number right now is probably
going to max out at 200.
So once we put up the landing page,
we anticipate that this is probably
going to go pretty fast because the
last hype event we had was, I mean,
outside of conference, the last hype.
A hype event we had was like 250.
That's right.
And so I think it's going
to fill up pretty fast.
And we have actually people, prominent
leaders, pastors, entrepreneurs
from across the nation flying in.
They're already locked in.
They're already locked in.
So we're probably locked in
already like 30, 40 people.
Yeah.
Is this just for
Arun: members or open to?
No, we're open to the community.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, cool.
Ps Adam: Yeah, it's perfect.
Any, any listener that this is
your, your area of expertise, uh,
innovation, entrepreneurial pastoring,
leading, uh, CEO, CFO, we, we really
feel it's going to be beneficial.
It's
Ps Vance: going to be
Arun: good.
The last hype event was absolutely
crushed, so it's going to be fantastic.
Yes.
All right guys.
Well, we'll see you guys next time.
Bless you.
Let's go.