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Welcome to the Pretty Okay Podcast, a chill (but sometimes spicy) small business podcast for people who are crazy enough to have one. Hosted by the Founder of Enji, Tayler Cusick Hollman, we cover everything from basic business practices to small business marketing. We sit down with some of our favorite small business owners and experts who share their stories, real-life experiences, and advice, all while keeping it (very) real and honest.
Tayler - 00:00:05:
Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the Pretty Okay podcast. I am your host, Tayler Hollman, and today we are going to talk about the thing that I know y'all hate doing and that is writing. And so I have invited one of my very best friends, long time professional partners, Gillian Griffith, to have a conversation with me today to help you think more like a copywriter. So Gillian hello, hello. Thank you so much for being willing to change your medium for the day from tippy tapping with your fingers to having a chat.
Gillian - 00:00:40:
Hi, hi. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.
Tayler - 00:00:45:
Yeah, this is going to be a fun one because, you know, you and I, for context, if anyone is meeting like Tayler and Gillian for the first time, we have been working together writing copy like, websites, blog posts. Basically any random requests that a client has ever had together since like 20, well, 2015 is when we first met. And I can't remember, I can't put a pin on the exact date that we were like, hey, we should do this as a partnership. But it has been a really long fucking time, guys. You know, Gillian and I are basically like common law married for sure, I think.
Gillian - 00:01:22:
100%. It's so funny because when you say 2015, I want to go, oh yeah, it's been a couple of years. And I'm like, holy shit, that was like nine years.
Tayler - 00:01:30:
I know, right? It's super wild. But so, you know, Gillian and I have had a lot of experience talking to and working with small business owners. And really, like, I think in every consultation, the first word out of someone's mouth is, I hate writing. It's just the most commonly said phrase to either one of us. So today I really wanted to center our conversation around the fact that when it comes to marketing, It happens on the internet these days, most of it. And because of that fact, it means we all need to write stuff. And as much as it would be amazing if every small business owner had the budget to just like outsource all of their writing, that's not the case. And so a lot of people are in these really... Repeated constant situations and fighting themselves in those where they're like, fuck, I got to write this thing. But, you know, there's this whole like, paralyzation that happens. And so I'm going to, before we dive in, because I'm like, I'm seriously already chomping at the bit to get to the meat of this. Before we dive into how people can really. Start to think like a copywriter because that's going to, I think, relinquish them of a lot of pressure, shockingly. Introduce yourself to everyone. Like, who is Gillian Griffith?
Gillian - 00:02:54:
Oh, what a question. Okay, yes, I'm Gillian Griffith. I'm a copywriter, obviously. I've been a copywriter since 2012 is probably when I started doing this thing like for real, for real. But before that, I was always the person that would end up writing. I worked in advertising and marketing for a while, and I was always the person that would end up writing things in my roles at agencies or in-house, even though I wasn't technically supposed to be hired as a writer. I just loved writing my entire life. It's what I've always wanted to do. So figured out a way to do it professionally in 2012, and that's under GG Copywriting, is my business. And that is. That is a short introduction to myself, although there's much more I could say, but no one needs to hear any of that.
Tayler - 00:03:40:
Well, the things that you all should know about Gillian is she is the most bendy person on the planet. Hot yoga is her thing. So I can barely touch my toes, you guys. She has an amazing family, husband, son. Truckee is like the other center of your world, your dog. What kind of dog is Truckee?
Gillian - 00:03:59:
He is a Catahoula. He is a Catahoula, which is a very random breed. But Google it if you're interested. They're fun dogs.
Tayler - 00:04:07:
Yeah, which is exactly why I was like, what kind of dog is he? Because I'm like, it sounds like a city in Tennessee to me, but it's not.
Gillian - 00:04:14:
It's actually like fairly accurate because they're from Louisiana. They were like originally bred in Louisiana to clear the land of hogs way back in the day. So there's a little history fun fact for you. We call him a cat-a-what because every time people stop us on the street and say, what is he? I say a cat-a-whole and they're like a cat-a-what? And so he's a cat-a-what.
Tayler - 00:04:33:
There you go. There you go. So yeah, if you want to get to know Gillian which I highly suggest that all of you do, you should go follow her on all the socials and we'll share those at the end. Okay, so the thing that you and I could both like stand on soapboxes and scream at the top of our lungs about all the time. But I think I want to start our conversation around the thing that stops people from getting started. Right. And so what do you think that is? I mean, I have my own thoughts about it, but I'd love to hear from you because I became like a... Finger quote, copywriter, kind of by accident, where this is like, you are a writer. I describe you to people as like, Gillian came out the womb, like ready to write. So what is that, what is that thing that you see people almost as a farce, like keeping them from getting started?
Gillian - 00:05:27:
I mean, I think like anything in life, it's fear essentially is like the big blanket statement we can put over it. I think there's a huge fear of judgment. I think there's, you know, the fifth and ninth and 10th grade English teacher hovering over your shoulder telling you that you were, you know, with a red pen telling you that you're ending. Sentences and prepositions and that you're, you know, a B minus writer. Right. Um, and I also think that there's this huge sort of like smoke and mirrors, like air of like romanticism or whatever around any, any of the arts and writing is one of those around the idea that like inspiration has to strike, you know, inspiration has to strike. And that's the only time that you can sit down and actually write because it's an art and it's like painting a painting or anything else. Right. Um, and that you need to feel inspired in order to start and do it. Um, which is a fun way to think about things, but when you're doing it for a living, like we are right, like you don't really, you have deadlines. There's not really, um, uh, you don't really have the option of like waiting around for inspiration to strike all day. Um, but yeah, I think in general writing is something that's both like feared for a lot of reasons that I feel are wrong or misunderstood. And then I think it's also something that's really romanticized, um, in a sense of, you know, you need to be great at it and you need to have all of the inspiration and, you know, like have read, you know, Hemingway your entire life and that kind of thing. So I think it's a combination of those two things that can really hold people back. And I guess the third little sprinkling of like generally just hating it, which I, we know all too well. Right. I know. I definitely picked a job and a line of work. I mean, even when I was like in high school and would love writing, or I was always the person that people would like send their papers to and have me like write their papers for fun. So, they could like get an A or when I went on to like get a journalism degree, it was all that was always the retort from people was like, how do you actually like this? I hate writing. Like, I hate writing. I hate like. I have heard that since I was little and when I went on to get a degree in it and now as a professional. So I think there's also the third thing would be a sprinkling of like a genuine disdain for the process.
Tayler - 00:07:27:
Totally right. Yeah. I don't blame anyone. I mean, it's kind of like this vulnerable thing because really, I think people have this misconception that like writing sits over here and how you think sits over here, but really writing is just how it is just what your thoughts are, you know, documented in a different form. And so I do think there's this like vulnerability piece of, do I communicate well? Am I thinking about this correctly? But kind of as an aside, like every once in a while, I'll go back and read some of the like first blog posts I wrote like way back in 2015. And they're trash.
Gillian - 00:08:07:
Yeah.
Tayler - 00:08:08:
You know, I would never-
Gillian - 00:08:09:
So cringy.
Tayler - 00:08:09:
Yeah.
Gillian - 00:08:10:
Not to your post. Yes. So cringy.
Tayler - 00:08:12:
But just, that's, that's. You know, the journey of becoming someone who is a competent writer, right? Like you don't, you don't, you're one of the few that just like comes out the womb going like, this is my medium. And, you know, I enjoy it, like all all the bits of the process, whether it's like, easy flowing, or like you're having to draw blood from a stone, right? But, you know, it's, I wanted to say that because, you know, I had to grow on this or within this skill set. And so I think people, which this leads us into the next thing we were going to talk about is. People think that they need to like. Strive for perfection, right? Right out the gate and like be really good at it on their first go. And that's not like it's such a it's such a practiced skill and exercise and muscle to build. And. So. I would love to talk about. The importance of judgment-free first drafts, or I think it's in the... There's a book. That I read early on when I first became self-employed called Everybody Writes. And I'm pretty sure it's from this book where she talks about the ugly first draft. And right, like that, you just have to go through this process. So what, where do you think that that fits in, like the importance scale of? Learning how to think like a copywriter.
Gillian - 00:09:43:
Yeah, I think, well, I mean, going back to what you said about it being a muscle like anything else, that's absolutely how I always think of it and try to describe it to other people. The first time that you like hop on a skateboard or the first time that you go to hot yoga or that you, I don't know, plant, I'm looking at my roses that are like dying out in my courtyard right now. The first time that you decide to plant roses and think you're going to be good at it. Um, it takes like, you can't just sit down one, like you would never like. Pick up a new hobby and then do it like that. You're really excited about, right? Like writing aside, let's think like everyone thinks of something that you're like, I really have actually wanted to try that. Like you try it once and you kind of suck at it. Are you going to like stop? I mean, 90% of people know, like, because you kind of expect that you're going to suck the first time you do it or that you're going to have huge. You know, room for growth, right? But again, with writing, I think And going back to what you had said even before, because it is essentially when you look at it, it is what you are thinking. Right. And the process is like filtering those thoughts and getting them out on paper. I think that there is this huge, like, fear again and paralyzation and well if i'm not good at it the very first time then like I'm going to throw my hands up and walk away when you really wouldn't do that with anything else, any other hobby that I can think of in your life. And so it is, if it's whether you want to look at it as a hobby or just a piece of your work that you absolutely have to do, which a lot of people, I'm assuming I'm listening to this, are probably looking at it as the latter. It absolutely is like a muscle that needs to be built up and flexed. And same thing when I look back on things that I wrote, even the other day I was looking back at it because I was submitting for something and I had to list where I had been published before outside of copywriting, personal creative writing. And I have an essay that was published years ago. And I was like, I should include this because it's a good resume point. And it was published by someone who worked at Vanity Fair and it was really good. But as I'm reading it, I'm like, I want these people to read it. It's so cringy. And if I were to rewrite that story of my life now, it would hopefully sound so much better. But again, I think just giving yourself that grace, knowing that it's not going to be great the first time you do it. And you have to get that ugly first draft out because. First of all, I always like just sit down at your computer, like without the English teacher, without anyone, and just like, let it all come out. Don't even think about like, what you need the general purpose to be or how long it needs to be or whatever. Think of your, your big idea of whatever it is that you're doing. I'm writing this email for this purpose. I'm writing whatever. And then just like all of your thoughts, like. Like let it all spill out on the paper. It's so important to do that because I don't I don't really know any other way that you get to. Z without like starting at A? Like, how do you get to that perfect, perfect, right? Like that refined final draft of whatever it is, an Instagram caption, a piece of copy for, you know, a marketing email campaign that you're doing? Like, how do you get to that final piece that you're proud of and excited to send out without first? Drafting the shit. Like you just, you have to do it. I still do it to this day. I've been writing websites for over 10 years and I still, oh my God, the first, the hero statement on a website, like the, the brand positioning, um, and like the first subhead beneath that, that's always my big, shitty, clunky piece of copy that I get down on the page. It probably takes me. Over an hour to do that first little piece. And I keep going back and back and back and back and back. And then. Finally, I get that refined. The rest of the site tends to flow, but it's always that big first piece that it's like. No, to this day, I don't sit down and write a perfect one the first time. That takes tons of refinement and tons of like marinating on it and tweaking it. And so, yeah, just allowing yourself some grace, which I think most entrepreneurs and people who are probably listening to this podcast, we're not great at allowing ourselves grace, right? That's why we run our own businesses because we're perfect at everything and we can do everything right ourselves. So it's a, you know, it's kind of an awful concept, but you have to like allow yourself that grace and divorce yourself from what you're seeing on the screen or on the page the first time that you write it. Like, no judgment. Get it down, get it good. That's the order.
Tayler - 00:13:35:
Yeah. You know, and I learned that lesson the hard way in grad school. Like every time I would sit down, I'd have to start a paper. I thought that the first word needed, like, that word was going to stay the first word. And the next word after it was going to stay that word. And I don't remember which one of my professors really, like, ingrained this in me. But someone. You know, again, if I could credit someone, I would. But one of those grad school professors really got me to understand, like, that is not how writing goes. And for me personally, as someone who is only a good writer because of... How much I do it, right? The practice of it. I always start with a super old school bulleted outline, right? Like, what do I want to communicate? What am I trying to communicate in the introduction, in this section, in that section? And that at least gives me direction to follow so that as I'm writing, it's like, okay, I know what I am trying to say here. I'm not trying to do two things simultaneously of figuring out the direction and the words. But that's the thing that, those are the two things that have really transformed my ability to do it. Even when. The inspiration is like, definitely not there. It's probably the only thing that allows me to get something done to hit a deadline.
Gillian - 00:15:10:
Yeah.
Tayler - 00:15:11:
You know, this, one of the other things that I've really learned from you. Is Like not, not feeling like I have to follow all the rules, right? Like I love, yeah, like the, the nerd in me like loves how playful your, your sentence structure is and all that kind of stuff. And, and over the years I've definitely picked up on those things. I don't know if I'm utilizing them all or like doing them right all the time, but like they're at least inspired by what I've seen from you. So when it comes to those, like. Super rigid rules that were forced upon us in school. What are your favorite ones to break? Why do you feel like it's important to break them? That kind of stuff.
Gillian - 00:16:01:
Yeah. Oh, I love breaking all the rules. Um, And I think, you know, you can tell when people are breaking. I mean, I think even anyone, even if you're not like a professional writer or like a total grammar nerd, which I would absolutely consider myself like an absolute. Grammar and punctuation nerd. I love all that stuff. But I think even with like an untrained eye, you can tell when you're reading something and you're like, Oh God, they like totally fucked that up and like, didn't know what they were doing or like, Oh, they did that on purpose. Or if it's done really well, you don't even really notice they're breaking a rule, I would say. But yeah, I mean, my favorite ones. Not starting a sentence with and or but like, come on, we, I love a sentence started with and or but no fragments, big fan of fragments and web copy, you can use them so purposefully to like tell a story to really like kind of evoke a certain, to like create a scene or evoke a certain set of emotions. I do it all the time when I'm, when we're looking at like transformation sentences, right. For wedding planners, right. Rather than being like. You know, imagine you walk into a room and blah, blah, blah, you know, and you're, you're stress free and you're with your, I'll just like list all of the things that they see as little. Punctuated fragments that like an English teacher would totally say, well, this is not a complete sentence. Um, yeah, so fragments, I'm a big fan of starting sentences with Andan, but I'm a big fan of, um, I also really like super long semi-run-on sentences when they're done right and when they're paired with really short punchy sentences to kind of give you a really nice cadence as you're reading. Um, I think those are some of my favorites. I'm trying to think what else. Yeah. I'm sure I have others that I break all the time, but I definitely start sentences with Anne. Like, You can absolutely do that. Um, and look for clever ways to use fragments. Like that will open up a whole other world for you when it's particularly when you're writing. I think web copy and email copy and even social media, like anything that can be casual in the right places, I think there's an opportunity to use fragments in a really powerful way there.
Tayler - 00:18:02:
Totally. Yeah. If anyone has a brand voice or personality that... Like conversational and approachable is one of the words that you would use to describe it. I think that these, you know, rule breaking tactics are, they work perfectly with that, right? Like you're not going to do it if you're trying to be like super professional and academic, but if you're just trying to humanize your brand and especially as a service provider, make sure that your brand voice is very similar to how you communicate as a human. We speak in fragments all of the time.
Gillian - 00:18:40:
Mm-hmm.
Tayler - 00:18:40:
Right?
Gillian - 00:18:41:
Absolutely.
Tayler - 00:18:42:
So, like, just let those two things kind of marry together and you'll be fine. I mean, I start my sentences with and all the time. But, because like, you know, and some of my, I'm sure some of my former teachers are rolling over and well, they're probably not dead yet, but I was going to say they're rolling over in their grade, but they're probably not dead yet. Cause you know, like as kids, we thought they were super fucking old. Yeah. Yeah. They're dead to me.
Gillian - 00:19:09:
You and your rigid rules are dead to me.
Tayler - 00:19:12:
I mean, I was just going to call out my eighth grade. English teacher. She was the one that like, I don't know. She seemed, I thought she was young at the time, like even as an eighth grader. But there was something about her that was just like so stodgy and rigid. Yeah. Even though she was probably in her 30s. I was like, I don't get what's going on here. So, you know, whatever. Okay. So when it comes to. Doing the work. What are some of your favorite tools that you find yourself using all the time that you think? Are just like good ones to have in the copywriting toolbox, but also that you think might be underutilized, by everyone else.
Gillian - 00:20:02:
Hmm. Well, I'll expand tools to like. Because I'll think of like, my brain goes to like the books that I would love people to read to help sort of like flesh out their writing skills. But like tools, tools. So don't be afraid of a thesaurus. Don't be afraid of thesaurus.com. Although they did just like completely redo their whole website and it's driving me nuts a little bit. But like any online thesaurus, right? Particularly when you're looking at. Web copy where you're like telling the same story, you're kind of hammering home the same messaging points, but need to do so in a different way, right? The source can be really great. And that I say that with caution, I caution you as you use the source, because Stephen King always says the first word that comes to your mind is probably the right one. And I stand by that in a lot of ways. Don't use thesaurus if you're trying to use it to like just make yourself sound fancier or. You know, like you're so much smarter and you want to use an SAT word instead of using like a word that's in people's everyday lexicons. But you can use it if you're like, if you just need to like talk about something, but in a different way, because you've already talked about it on two other web pages, right? Um, so know why you're using it, but I'm a big fan. I use that one is usually a tab that's always open as I'm writing website copy. And then, I, when you're in the mindset of like knowing that you need to write for your business, which I'm always in that mindset because that is what I do for a living. So I am always, I never throw away or recycle or like immediately toss a piece of any direct mail that comes to me, whether it's. Junk mail, clothing catalogs, interior design catalogs, particularly for like wedding pros, whether you're a photographer, florist, planner, any of that. I sit down and I read every, I'm like the one who's reading all the little fine print in the Pottery Barn catalogs. It's like, how are you describing these items? Dude, Anthropologie Catalog has great coffee.
Tayler - 00:21:47:
Yeah.
Gillian - 00:21:48:
Reformation emails have great copy if you have like a playful, edgy kind of young brand voice. I love they're all just the other day I highlighted one and I can't remember. What catalog it was. I think it was a clothing catalog. And they said something about like, you know, seasonal favorites that will become an instant classic. And I was like, Ooh, instant classic. Like I want to use instant classic on like a photographer's website or instant classic somewhere. Um, literally last night we were just, we were watching Shogun, that new show on Hulu and or on FX, whatever. Anyways, it's amazing. Anyone out there wants to watch it. But he, what did he say? Well, fuck now. I can't remember what he said. So write down when you get inspired. But he used a word that I was like, oh, I haven't heard that word in forever. Oh, he said relic. And I was like, I love relic. I feel like relic could be used somehow. In the right form in a photographer's website copy. So anyways, if you're in that space where you know that you're needing to create content for your brand or you've got a big, you're like, okay, I'm redoing my website. I can't afford a copyright. I'm going to have to write it. Start opening your eyes to all of the content that you're consuming every day. And I would say less so. That means less so on social media and more so I'm talking about like the mail that comes in your mailbox, especially from catalogs, whose like aesthetic aligns with yours. Things that you're seeing on TV or on podcasts, like listen for little words that perk your ears up. So that's one of my favorite, I guess, tools, I would say, is where I get a lot of my inspiration is like sitting down and reading catalogs that come in the mail. Books that I love that I've read ad nauseum. Would be Stephen King's On Writing. That is mainly for people writing novels, but the sort of the basic of it, the basis of it and the foundation that he gives you is like applies to all writing across the board. I've probably read that one 10 times. Big Magic by Liz Gilbert. She's the Eat, Pray, Love author. That is an amazing book for anyone who's writing or creating anything at all. It talks about ideas as these like, entities outside of ourselves and how we're literally just vessels for them. And she gives these amazing. Stories of ideas that have like transferred for her from her to someone else. It sounds super woo woo. But when you read it, you're like, holy, like. Changes the way that you look at inspiration. And I think it releases a lot of that fear and a lot of that waiting for inspiration to strike. So big magic is one that I'm a huge fan of. Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott is another one that just like the title, like, how are you going to tackle it? Bird by Bird Baby. Like, it can be super overwhelming if you step back and look at. Oh my God, I have to write 10 emails for this email sequence. But like Bird by Bird helps you look at it from a Bird by Bird perspective of like one sentence at a time. Yeah, so those are all books I love. You would probably be, I know AI can be a great tool for people right now. I, like on principle and being a purist and also just being where I need to be with my headspace to write the way I want to write. I've literally not even fucked around on AI, but I do know from I know that you know a lot about it because you're amazing at tech and you just know all of these things and you're always staying on top of trends. Whereas I'm like, how much further can I back into my little antiquated corner over here? But I do know and have heard from business owners. And I had a friend come over a few weeks ago who was showing me the spreadsheet that AI had generated for her as she was like trying to develop an outline for a newsletter. And I was like, that's fucking awesome. Like, so I know that that can probably also be a great tool to get people started. That's my long list.
Tayler - 00:25:03:
Yeah, those are great. Those are super great tools.
Gillian - 00:25:05:
I don't know that they're tools, but.
Tayler - 00:25:07:
I was going to bring up AI because it is a great tool. So Engie has an AI copywriter in case anyone has not heard me talk about Engie ad nauseum. You know, when we were first building it, I did write a piece about AI copywriters. And I have shared my thoughts about like being a copywriter who's building an AI copywriter. It's a very, that was like a really strange thing because. I do 100% think that, like 100% of the time, you're going to get a better product if you hire like a true professional copywriter, right? Someone who has the resume, has the experience, like is the right fit for your brand. You're going to get a better product working with a professional. But most of it, like I said, you know, at the top of this conversation, most people don't have the budget to be working with professionals all the time. And so where an AI copywriter fits into this whole conversation is. Helping you get past that ugly first draft. Like the AI copywriter can write the ugly first draft for you. And that is the way everyone should look at anything that's produced by artificial intelligence as it's the ugly first draft. Like meaning you have to come back into it and you have to refine it, revise it, fine tune it, do all the things. But if you are someone who's being paralyzed by the blinking cursor, it can be a tool.
Gillian - 00:26:44:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tayler - 00:26:46:
I've had this conversation with my business partners about how I will, I'm still willing to die on this hill and I don't see an end to it. But I think that Website copy is an off limits for an AI copywriter because it's out of all of the marketing pieces that someone needs to produce. Website copy is so nuanced and involves so much strategy and pulling from all of these places. In a way that it's fundamentally different than writing a blog post.
Gillian - 00:27:19:
Absolutely.
Tayler - 00:27:19:
For SEO, and so, you know, we are recording this episode on March 4th of 2024, and I'm declaring it like Tayler is still willing to die on this hill. It's going to take. A lot for me to be convinced otherwise. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. So, but yeah, I think. Those books are great. One of the books that I really have loved as of late is Obviously Awesome by April Dunford. And it's, it's for like B2B software as a service. So like. Basically no one who's listening to this podcast. But the whole book is about positioning. And so if... Again, that's like kind of like on the nerdy side of things that you would think about as a marketer. That's the other book that I would. Would add to the list.
Gillian - 00:28:10:
We need some middle ground because you give like the. Techie, nerdy, amazing books. And then I'm giving stuff that people are going to read and be like, well, I'm not trying to write a fiction novel. What is she talking about?
Tayler - 00:28:20:
But big magic, big magic, I think is in the middle.
Gillian - 00:28:24:
Yeah. I think that magic is in the middle. And I think even if that's not, if you're not applying that to writing for your business, I think you can apply it to anything that you're creating for your business or in your life in general. It's so good.
Tayler - 00:28:35:
Yeah, totally.
Gillian - 00:28:36:
It's inspiring. It's a little inspiration bomb.
Tayler - 00:28:39:
It is. I mean, even the cover art is like a literal inspiration bomb, right?
Gillian - 00:28:44:
Yes.
Tayler - 00:28:44:
It's just like a colorful kind of, yeah, it's amazing. I need to finish it. I have this terrible, hi, my name is Tayler and I have a terrible habit of buying books and reading them 70% of the way. And that one, it's, honestly, Obviously Awesome, is the only book as of late that I have finished cover to cover.
Gillian - 00:29:07:
Oh, wow. That is saying a lot because I know you've talked about that before that you like struggle with finishing them, so.
Tayler - 00:29:11:
Yeah, that could be worth a pick up then. It's a me problem, but it's not these authors.
Gillian - 00:29:17:
It happens to a lot of people. At least you're buying them and opening them. That's more than.
Tayler - 00:29:20:
Yes. Yes. Don't get me-
Gillian - 00:29:22:
In my Comedian-y soapbox about how no one reads anymore. Got off about I don't use AI so I think I'll bring it back to a friendly modern place now.
Tayler - 00:29:33:
Well, this was an amazing conversation. I think that I hope that people really. Do look at this as, or like listen to this and watch. And really take it to heart that, like, a copywriter... Even if, you know, someone like you, who you write for a living. You have to start from square one, just like everyone else. You have to flesh out your ideas, just like everyone else. You have to go through the revision. I didn't like this. I need to change, just like everybody else. And I think the one thing... I'd love to know. As my last question to you, what you also think, the one thing is that keeps people from recognizing the fact that. Yeah, like they're a human and it's okay to make mistakes and do the wrong thing. And I mean, maybe I'm just thinking out loud here and really just coming back to exactly what you said at the start of like, it's fear and all vulnerability and all of these things. Cool, Tayler Cool, cool. Good job on like bringing this full circle.
Gillian - 00:30:43:
No, I like that.
Tayler - 00:30:46:
But so if people want to connect with you, which they should, because Gillian drops copy bombs. On occasion, you're going to get to see her adorable family. You're going to see lots of Trekkie. Where can they find you on the internet?
Gillian - 00:31:00:
You can find me at GG, just the letters, no I's involved, like the French version, @ggcopywriting on Instagram. I'm honestly, guys, not that active these days because I got a little toddler that I chased around the house, but I try. And then also ggcopywriting.com. And there's like some freebies you can download on my homepage that that's actually a really good place to get started for if you're starting with website copy. There are three freebies on my homepage that I would totally download to help you. Yeah, there's some formulas and some things that make it a little bit easier, so.
Tayler - 00:31:31:
The CTE, CTE?
Gillian - 00:31:33:
Yeah the CTE approach.
Tayler - 00:31:35:
There you go. There you go, guys. Go get that stuff.
Gillian - 00:31:38:
Easy to explain.
Tayler - 00:31:40:
There you go. Everyone seriously definitely wants that because that is that's another one of those, like, fundamental, like, oh, shit, like, this makes sense now. Like, this is how I need to do this.
Gillian - 00:31:48:
Yeah.
Tayler - 00:31:48:
So, yeah, follow GG for, you know, occasional copywriting and intermittent Instagramming.
Gillian - 00:31:55:
Pretty much these days.
Tayler - 00:31:57:
But thank you. Seriously, thank you so much for having this chat with me and for being a great partner. The cool thing about Gillian and I is we live very different lives, but like still the way our lives are meandering is like still in like the same space, which is. I'm not woo woo, but it is strange that this always happens that every, every time one of us has a life change and we're like, oh, fuck, like we got to change some stuff about how we do work. It's like the other person's like, yeah, me too.
Gillian - 00:32:27:
As a life change, it's like totally different, but also the exact same in certain ways, like are totally different, but requires the exact same solution.
Tayler - 00:32:34:
Yes.
Gillian - 00:32:34:
So, yeah.
Tayler - 00:32:35:
So, you know, that's how you know you got a good partner. Yep, we are one. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning into this week's episode. We'll be actually fake news this month's episode. Tayler still getting her feet under her with this podcast thing. We will be back next month with another fantastic guest. Show notes will be up at prettyokaypodcast.com. And just like Gillian I will be intermittently Instagramming @prettyokaypodcast. But have a fantastic rest of your day, everyone. And we'll see you next time. Bye.
Gillian - 00:33:10:
Thanks for having me.