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Chasta and her husband John discuss betrayal as a common but often avoided experience, defining it as a breaking of trust, expectations, or alignment that often surprises people and unfolds in pre-, during-, and post-betrayal phases. They explore betrayal through examples from Disney and films as well as history and religion, including Judas, Brutus and Caesar, Benedict Arnold, and John Wilkes Booth, noting how betrayal can be driven by motives, flaws, and leadership dynamics. They connect the theme to personal lived experience in the competitive dance world and to broader “system” betrayals involving private equity, big tech, AI, and rising costs, including a graduation speech moment with Scott Borchetta. They close with encouragement: betrayal is painful but survivable, boundaries and values help, community and conversation matter, and listeners are invited to share their experiences.
00:00 Betrayal Topic Intro
02:04 Disney Betrayal Memories
04:44 Defining Betrayal Stages
07:19 Trust Alignment Fallout
10:05 Betrayal Game Setup
10:42 Judas Biblical Betrayal
12:41 Brutus Caesar Backstab
14:03 Benedict Arnold Treason
15:39 John Wilkes Booth Plot
16:39 Common Threads In Betrayal
17:48 History and Leadership Betrayal
19:57 Betrayal in Film Examples
22:14 Seven Years Emotional Trigger
24:39 Taylor Swift and Billionaires
27:01 Private Equity in Youth Arts
29:42 Graduation Speech and AI Threats
32:03 Big Tech System Betrayal
33:52 Surviving Betrayal and Boundaries
39:06 Promise in the Pain Closing
Creators and Guests
What is Nobody Listens to Chasta?
What happens when someone says the things everyone else is thinking—but nobody is willing to say out loud?
Nobody Listens to Chasta is a counterculture podcast hosted by entrepreneur, speaker, and author Chasta Hamilton. With humor, candor, and unapologetic honesty, Chasta tackles the uncomfortable topics shaping modern life—from youth sports trophies and toxic achievement culture to entrepreneurship, parenting, grief, addiction, and the pressure to conform.
Drawing from her experience building Stage Door Dance Productions, founding Girls Geared for Greatness, and writing books like Trash the Trophies and Handle the Horrible, Chasta challenges systems that no longer serve us and explores better ways to live, lead, and raise the next generation.
Expect bold conversations, unconventional perspectives, and thoughtful debate designed to inspire healthier, happier, and more intentional lives.
If you've ever questioned the status quo…
you might be someone who actually listens to Chasta.
12 - Nobody Listens to Chasta
===
[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. It's Chasta, and this is Nobody Listens to Chasta. Today, I am talking about something that we have probably all experienced, but nobody loves to talk about, and that is betrayal. Here to talk about the really deep, dark, not-so-fun stuff is one of the funnest people I know, the most fun person I know, my husband, John.
John: Brought me on to talk about betrayal.
Chasta: Perfect. I did. But that's because you are one of the most loyal people I know.
John: Ah, see, that's good. It's not because you're trying to interrogate me or- ... get something out of me. No, no. Okay, yeah, no. It's wonderful.
Chasta: You are so loyal.
John: It's all good, everyone.
Chasta: And I thought, "This is something we all experience."
John: Yeah.
Chasta: We see it. We see it in [00:01:00] history. We see it in media. We see it in our daily lives. And I thought we could just dig into all of it to let people know that, hey, we've been there, we've survived it. Here's some tips for getting through it. Betrayal can show up in all different spaces, places, people, things, events, institutions, organizations, society. So today, I thought we could just unpack all of that.
John: Let's get up in there.
Chasta: Let's get up in it. So do you wanna start or you want me to?
John: I mean, I'm happy to start.
I was kinda thinking a lot about it as we made this choice to tackle the subject.
Chasta: It was kind of a last-minute choice.
John: It was five minutes ago. So you didn't
Chasta: think too long
John: about it. Look, I like to put ample, serious thought into ChatG- into what I'm going to say.
Chasta: But, you know, one good thing about this is I kept, because it was so short, short decided, that I was thinking when we were in the house r- right before we came here, and I would be like, "Oh, I can't say that yet."
John: All right. Let me just [00:02:00] start going. Okay. I mean, I see you're very excited over there, so- ... settle on down. I think my first memory of betrayal is actually from a Disney movie. Mm. Um, for whatever reason-
Chasta: Here comes the tortured poet's apartment ...
John: here, here we go. When I was four or five years old, and I remember one of our family friends would always come over and watch it with me, we'd watch The Fox and the Hound- Which-
over and over and over again- It's- ... which probably explains a lot about me. Um, but if you're not familiar with that particular Disney movie- That's why
Chasta: you're loyal ...
John: maybe so. It's because I've seen that example and I'm like-
Chasta: Over and over and over ... "I'll never
John: let that happen to anyone." And you know, it's a cute, adorable little fox who gets abandoned by his mother because she's chased off by, you know, raccoon-hunting dogs.
Um-
Chasta: Nature's brutal ...
John: and a big, kind owl motherly figure tries to help him by dropping her, dropping him off on a human lady's [00:03:00] doorstep. And this kind old lady, she raises that fox. And he meets next door a dog, a hound dog puppy named Copper, and they become best friends. But unfortunately, Copper is being raised to hunt fox, to hunt all sorts of animals.
And the owner of the dog eventually tells the lady that he's either gonna kill the fox or she has to go let him be in the wild. And so she, like, drives off and abandons this fox, and it is, like, for me, that's the ultimate betrayal. It's not that his dog friend is coming to hunt him later on in the story.
It's betrayal from
Chasta: all sides.
John: Yeah, it's, it's all over the place. It's- But the fact that she just left that fox in the forest- Honey,
Chasta: I know Come on ... like call Disney. Come on. How many- It's common ... how many children's- It's
John: common ... it's- Think about Prince Hans, man. Yeah ... that's a more modern one. It's- That, I didn't see that one coming, I'm gonna be honest
Chasta: I've got a big one, actually, on my list.
John: Okay.
Chasta: I [00:04:00] mean, the biggest, I would say. Disney betrayal.
John: I think I know.
Chasta: I mean, everyone has to know.
John: Everybody knows.
Chasta: Are you gonna say it? Or-
John: Scar.
Chasta: Yes.
John: Woo. And I need, I know Disney didn't write that. Yeah. Shakespeare did, but
Chasta: Yes ...
John: not giving it too much
Chasta: credit. The tell is they probably- "
John: What, don't tell them that one."
No, absolutely not, Mickey. You can't have that one.
Chasta: Yeah, Shakespeare tragedy. Fox and the Hound- The most tragic ... may be based off of some historical tragedies. They all probably are. Well, the, I mean, most of them do go back to something. They've never
John: had an original idea.
Chasta: Well, we don't know that. We would have to, we, we need to do some research to stand by that claim.
John: Research.
Chasta: But it is a possibility. Let's get back to betray- betrayal.
John: Yes, let's get back to betraying.
Chasta: All right. So, what happens in betrayal?
John: A lot of times- Like- ... you are-
Chasta: Let's just define it. I think there's power in, in defining something.
John: How would you define it?
Chasta: So, I thought about this a lot, and I think it really comes down [00:05:00] to a broken something.
Something breaks, right? Whether that's trust, vision-
John: Expectation ...
Chasta: expectation, contract. Like, it can get literally to- Yeah ... like, paperwork. Confidence, even. There's something that has to break, and then when that shatters, it typically spirals into deeper misalignment.
John: And a lot of times, it's a surprise.
Chasta: A lot of times, it's a surprise.
I, when I think of betrayal, I think of it as something that there's, before the pre-betrayal, which is actually usually when the betrayal's happening.
John: Yeah. There's- There's often a ti- a period of time when it's happening- When one
Chasta: party doesn't
John: know ... and one party doesn't know
Chasta: Then there's the during, which is when the enlightenment occurs.
Like, the person realizes. And then, I think the, the post-betrayal is the part that a lot of people don't talk about, and that's where everyone has to unpack the emotions.
John: Pick up the pieces.
Chasta: Or process, think about it, move on, [00:06:00] learn. So, I kinda see it in the three acts. Pre, during, and post-betrayal.
John: Okay.
Chasta: That's how I define it. What about you?
John: I mean, I'm not gonna do a better job than that. I, what, what I was thinking about the most is the, the way it catches you by surprise, the way it seemingly comes out of nowhere. But I think, maybe, in that after period, you start to reflect a little bit, and you realize, "Wait a minute, maybe there were some signs that this
Chasta: was coming."
Sometimes we don't wanna see the signs.
John: No Blind to them
Chasta: Yeah. Or just they're inconvenient. You can ignore a lot of things that maybe don't feel like you want to address them.
John: Yeah, I think people probably do that every day.
Chasta: Yeah, sometimes you do.
John: Oh, I do it. Go on.
Chasta: Just thinking about the dentist.
John: Oh, you're [00:07:00] gonna hit me with the dentist right now?
Chasta: No. In
John: front of
Chasta: the audience. Let's move on. Let's move on. But you know what I'm saying.
John: That I need to go to the dentist. Nobody listens to CHAZ. Hello, my name is John, and I do need to go to the dentist. Is that good?
Chasta: That's perfect.
John: Okay.
Chasta: That's perfect. So I do also think that betrayal, like, if the receiving party of the betrayal doesn't have some type of reaction, like, there ha- it has to create conflict in them.
John: Right.
Chasta: Because if you're betrayed and the other person doesn't care, then it's not really a betrayal, right?
John: It's yeah, it's like a passive betrayal or- Like a
Chasta: mutually reli- Yeah ... mutual relief or something. Um, I don't know,
John: but- We'll come up with a term. Listeners, you come up with a term for that ...
Chasta: so some type of- There's a negative response on the, on the receiving side.
John: Yep.
Chasta: So then there's, like, shock, there's shame.
John: Anger.
Chasta: Anger. Sadness. Inability to trust. Trust is huge. When you talk about... You can't talk about [00:08:00] betrayal and not talk about trust because I think trust is one of the greatest gifts that we have, and I think when trust is shattered, it's really hard to kinda work back to a trusting place.
John: 100%.
Chasta: And again, it can't be, like, one person is this and the other person is that. Everyone has to be, this is another word that I wanna use a lot as we talk about this, aligned. Like, alignment really matters in betrayal and in trust. Misalignment, alignment. It's not necessarily always good, bad, hero, villain.
I mean, when you're talking about Scar- ... it is probably. But I don't think everything is that clear-cut when you're talking about betrayal and trust.
John: Yeah. I mean, you know, they made the prequel or whatever that shows Scar's life story and, you know, maybe how he was- Oh, they did? Yeah. Um, I haven't seen it- I mean, that-
but I've
Chasta: heard of it. I mean, it sounds like a money grab.
John: Oh. Disney strays continue.
Chasta: Like, I just don't understand why that would be the origin story that we would need. I mean, they did it with Cruella.
John: Yeah. I mean, villains are in [00:09:00] right now.
Chasta: Whose name is Cruel, a devil.
John: Oh my gosh. Next you're gonna tell me that Darth Vader-
means Darth Father. What else you got?
Chasta: But it's true. But it's, it's these beacons of betrayal in plain sight, and sometimes they're glorified.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: I would- Like w- you know, I mean, I watched the Cruella movie, and at times was feeling sorry for her. But I was like, if I put this animated one on, I'm not going to.
Like, I know what she does with the puppies, and I know what she looks like driving that car with the bloodshot eyes.
John: Yeah. That's, oof-
Chasta: Scary.
John: I can still remember that scene, for sure.
Chasta: So betrayal, trust, alignment, misalignment. I think we can think about it in terms of relationships, friendships, professional life, and institutional.
So I think we can kinda bring all of those pieces into the conversation today, right?
John: Yeah. I mean-
Chasta: I think a lotta times people see betrayal and trust as a person-to-person situation, but sometimes it's much bigger than that. [00:10:00]
John: Oh, definitely.
Chasta: But I think we all just have to say that and own that. All right.
So we talked about some, we said, "Let's bring some entertainment ideas of betrayal." Hmm. Or maybe not even entertainment, historical entertainment, kinda like play a little game-
John: Okay ...
Chasta: about betrayal. So do you wanna start? Because I know you felt very passionate about one. But I was like, "No, that's on my historical list."
John: Well, I'll tell you what, then. From your- I'll let you have that one.
Chasta: No, I don't want that one.
John: You don't?
Chasta: No.
John: All right. Because I had two historical ones that I would be willing to share, but- Well,
Chasta: I have mine and you have yours.
John: Okay.
Chasta: You're taking the biblical one.
John: I'm taking the biblical one. Yes, all right.
Well, spoiler alert, his name is Judas. Um, and if you were someone like me who grew up, um, with a lot of religious background, a lot of Sunday school, a lot of church services, you know, this was, like, enemy number one [00:11:00] of Christianity, right? You learn about him in the story of the Last Supper and in the crucifixion where Jesus actually predicts-
Chasta: Yeah, that
John: he will betray him
he goes right there and calls the shot that, "One of you..." Well, but he doesn't say who.
Chasta: Yeah. "
John: One of you will betray me." Turns out it was Jews- Judas for a, a fresh bag of 30 gold coins.
Chasta: I have to stop you for a second. Stop
John: me.
Chasta: Because the gut always knows. Your gut- We talked about the gut ... your gut usually alerts you to this.
And again, it's easy to ignore, just like you were saying, the signs. But that was just an example of the gut.
John: Yep. But it went on to happen- The
Chasta: 30 coins ...
John: Famously. Yep. And it was all part of Jesus' plan, though, so he let it happen.
Chasta: It, that, that part of Jesus Christ Superstar kills me.
John: Oh, in the, the musical?
Chasta: Yes.
John: Hmm.
Chasta: Big musical people.
John: You, do you love a musical?
Chasta: So do you.
John: I
Chasta: do, yes. That's why I said people.
John: People.
Chasta: Not just [00:12:00] me.
John: Yes. Your love of them has rubbed off. And
Chasta: you love the John Legend version. I do. Don't even act like you don't.
John: I'm, look, I am guilty. The baritone John Legend version of Jesus Christ Superstar, I, I think it works.
I know there's people on the other side, the purists of, like, you know, the high rock, um, rock voice, but I, it really worked for me, the John Legend one. I thought it was
Chasta: an exceptional production.
John: It was Brandon Victor Dixon- Yes, Judas ... who played Judas in that, um, particular production. He did a wonderful job.
Sara
Chasta: Bareilles-
John: Mm-hmm ...
Chasta: Mary Magdalene, was very good. All right. So should we move on?
John: Yeah, because I'm curious of what yours is, because- Oh, you
Chasta: know it ...
John: well, if, if it is what I think it
Chasta: is- In the ancient
John: times. Oh, yeah. I wasn't gonna take that one anyway. That, that's- Caesar ... your, your stoic-
Chasta: Caesar, Caesar and Brutus
John: pass it over to my stoic over here to talk about this one.
Chasta: I don't think I'm proficient enough to be officially labeled a stoic yet.
John: Okay.
Chasta: But Caesar and Brutus, you know, we know what happened in the Senate chamber in ancient Rome, right? 23 [00:13:00] senators turned on him. He was stabbed. And what were his last words?
John: "Et tu,
Chasta: Brute?" Brute. That's right. That's right.
John: I think a lot of people know that. I don't wanna sort of act like I'm a
Chasta: genius. You know, maybe not in the modern times.
John: Okay.
Chasta: I was asking someone the other day if they knew the three chambers of the US government, and they did not. So-
John: Was that person ChatGPT or-
Chasta: No
John: it was a real, it's a real person?
Chasta: I don't call the bots people.
John: Good. Good.
Chasta: That's my little mark, is not referring to them as people.
John: Yeah, they always tell you their name. It's like, "No."
Chasta: I know.
John: You're an AI.
Chasta: I was on software the other day that was like, "Would you like your bot assistant, Elena, to help you clean up this board?"
No, because every time the bot has gotten involved, they mess it up, and m- I already manage people. I don't wanna manage a, you know- ... mediocre bot team.
John: That's someone's entire job, by the way, now, is, like- Managing bots ... managing bots. Yeah.
Chasta: I would cry.
John: Yeah. You would. So that's not the [00:14:00] historical- We digress
example I thought you were-
Chasta: Oh ...
John: doing. It's
Chasta: not?
John: No. I thought we were talking about Benedict Arnold as well.
Chasta: Oh.
John: Because-
Chasta: Another period of history we love ... yeah. We do love history. Yeah.
John: So I, um- You can
Chasta: learn a lot from history ...
John: I wrote a paper, I guess it was in either 10th or 11th grade, on Benedict Arnold.
But I learned, refreshing my memory today, I learned something new that- Tell me ... you're really gonna appreciate. Oh. So if you don't know about Benedict Arnold, he was a, a highly ranking officer in the, um, United States Army during the American Revolution. He had, like, several really important victories.
He was super trusted by George Washington. But then during the Continental Congress- Mm ... he got passed over. Um, his wife died after one of the battle, you know, a lot of stuff was going on. And so he tried to resign from his commission, um, but he actually ended up being put in charge of West Point Fort at the time, not the, um-
Chasta: The school
John: school- Yeah ... that it is today. And he was put in that [00:15:00] position by none other than Philip Schuyler.
Chasta: What? You
John: know I am. For the Hamilton fans out there, fun fact. Anyway, that's where- Yeah ... it all started to turn. He was gonna try to surrender West Point to the British. I think it was, in today's money, he was gonna be paid, like, $3 million or something worth.
And yeah.
Chasta: He took it?
John: Well, no, no, no. Oh. They got caught. Um, Oh ... what's his name, Andre, his accomplice, was- Oh ... intercepted with, um, the correspondence, and they got him.
Chasta: Then if you go forward a few more years, we have one of my other favorites. I didn't even think about this one until you started bringing up the revolution.
John: Let's go, let's go. History jam.
Chasta: John Wilkes Booth.
John: Ooh, that is one of your favorites. Complicated, complicated character.
Chasta: Complicated. Complicated, flawed human. And this is the thing with my boy John Wilkes Booth.
John: Your
Chasta: boy
John: JWB? Is... Yeah. Oh, man. This, we're canceling ourselves here. This is perfect. This, no- Chasta [00:16:00] loves John Wilkes Booth
Chasta: I don't, I don't love John Wilkes Booth the person. I'm fascinated at his plan.
John: Right. And- In the same way that Disney is fascinated by giving Cruella a story and-
Chasta: Right ...
John: why we watch The Sopranos and- Like, he
Chasta: is, he is, John Wilkes Booth is a villain.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: And he, what he created was so much bigger than what actually happened.
He had a plan in place to take down the U- entire United States government, and all of the accomplices fell through. They did not carry it out. They did not carry out the betrayal. But he had all of these f- interesting family dynamics, which that's not an excuse for what he did. What he did was terrible.
But I think when you look at these betrayals, you have to say, what, what happened? Whether it's Judas, I... There's a commonality, right? There's a common thread when you look at Judas- Judas,
John: Brutus. W- Yeah ... I don't know what I'm doing here. Yeah ...
Chasta: Judas, Brutus, Benedict Arnold, John Wilkes Booth. Copper,
John: the old lady in Fox and the Hound.[00:17:00]
Chasta: Like, there's, there's something there.
John: Um- Prince Hans ...
Chasta: Prince Hans, Ghost.
John: Oh, Ghost.
Chasta: Tony Goldwyn, Carl I remember watching that on VHS as a child and it taking my breath away.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: Um, it's so, it's so fascinating. Well, what does this lead to? Especially when you're thinking of it in these big consequential moments of history and society.
When you look into entertainment, it becomes a little different because, you know, when you're looking at Carl, it's like, oh, that feels very relative to something. Like, nobody wants it to happen, but Carl feels like a very... We could see Carl on the street today.
John: Yeah. Wall Street.
Chasta: Yeah. Oh, yeah, actually.
Literally, right? Yeah. Banker, private equity.
John: Yeah. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Boom, boom.
Chasta: Um, you know, my favorite topic. So I just think all of these themes are important. I think sometimes we don't look back enough, and I am big on, like, staying forward-focused, but I think we [00:18:00] can learn a lot from history. And the whole, um, this Lincoln John Wilkes Booth piece, I took a group of students on a walking tour, if you'll remember-
John: I do
Chasta: when we were performing at the Cherry Blossom Festival in 2019, and the walking tour was so interesting because it's a, it's a fascinating study of leadership. I think when you're looking at betrayal and trust, there's always positive leadership, maybe negative leadership. Leadership can be either of those things.
We don't often talk about leadership being a, a scale of positive to negative. A
John: spectrum.
Chasta: A spectrum, thank you. Not all leaders, I mean, they may generate followers, but maybe they're not models of people to follow. Are you following?
John: I think there's a lot of people out there like that today.
Chasta: Yeah, but the... I don't think we talk about that enough.
John: No, probably not.
Chasta: Because we don't like talking about the more taboo things of like, well, why? Why did this happen with Brutus? Why did it happen with Judas? And, you know, [00:19:00] and we've seen it happen time and time again. So I think we need to do more studies and conversations on these types of people that just aren't as ta- they're not talked about as much.
John: Make more Disney origin villain movies. That's what you're saying?
Chasta: No. No, because I don't think we can just revise the history to make- Yeah ... them look incredible.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: let's get into the, like, the real kind of grittiness of it. Before we get to our personal lives, [00:20:00] I thought we could... Or not personal lives, but just lived experiences maybe would be a better term.
Thinking about a couple of other entertainment that just came to mind, and this is a movie that I think I recommended that you watch-
John: Hmm ...
Chasta: um, with an actor that I really like, Edward Norton.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: Primal Fear.
John: Oh, you did recommend that one, and I remember that you recommended it. Wonderful movie.
Chasta: It took you several years to watch it.
John: I did, though.
Chasta: But you did, and the ending It's a little bit of a betrayal, right?
John: Big time.
Chasta: Big time. Highly recommend it. I was thinking of a more modern example too. The, um, film Get Out.
John: Oh, love that movie.
Chasta: Little bit of a betrayal there, right? Yeah,
John: a little bit.
Chasta: I think about the picture box. Yeah. That's kind of the moment, I think, that's like...
It's, it's when you're an audience, and I think this is why this, this like intro conversation is really important and fascinating, is [00:21:00] if you are taken in to a betrayal in trust in a way that makes you feel It's because something in you has resonated. It's happened. It's a fear. It's an anxiety. It's something you don't maybe want to experience or relive, and I think that's why these moments are so powerful
John: Because we're, even if it's not conscious, it's drawing on our past experience.
Chasta: Yeah, or maybe a fear of a future experience based on past experiences. And sometimes we s- and this is where I think we've been getting to, or trying to get to, is we suppress those.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: So sometimes history is hard to look at- Oh, yeah ... because it's not pleasant. Right?
John: Big time.
Chasta: You're the historian and political scientist at the table.
John: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Forgot my pipe, but yes.
Chasta: But that, I think we should always continue to look and think without fear of the [00:22:00] grittiness or the discontent that it may produce. And I'm a joyful optimist. I love the rainbows and sunshine, right?
John: Sparkle unicorn rainbow vibes-
Chasta: Yeah ...
John: coming, flowing out of you.
Chasta: I think one thing for us that triggers an experience that I had is hearing the song Seven Years.
John: Oh, yeah.
Chasta: And do you remember? You wanna tell everybody a little bit about that story?
John: I mean, Chas and I are just sitting downtown at the City Club. Now closed City Club. No longer in existence. Yeah. But, um, you, as, like, a, a 40 under 40, you got, like, a free- Something
Chasta: like
John: that, yeah
yeah, like a membership for a year. Mm-hmm. We're, like, swanking it up, having... I was honestly having just a incredible evening.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: And-
Chasta: I was, too.
John: You, you just start crying out of nowhere, and I'm like, "Ooh, what's going on?" 'Cause this was early on.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: And you wanna tell why?
Chasta: Yeah, I, I felt [00:23:00] very... Well, I heard a song.
And songs can be very viscerally remind... You know, they can remind us of, like, points of our life. And I don't even know why this song has connected this, but for, for whatever reason, it is and always will be. But when we left the competitive dance space, it was hard, and there were a lot of betrayals to unpack.
And I was thinking about that moment. And when I say betrayal, that's how I perceived what was happening. Doesn't mean that was the intent of the other party. There's
John: always-
Chasta: Yeah ... different
John: sides of every story-
Chasta: And- ...
John: complications ...
Chasta: and so many of those, quote-unquote, "betrayals" have since resolved and healed and had conversations, but in that moment, it still felt very raw.
And, and I was tearful. And you said, "You're crying over, like, these kids?"
John: Oh.
Chasta: No. So
John: then I'm
Chasta: trying-
John: But no,
Chasta: no ... to, too. No, but, like, you didn't understand. No,
John: I definitely
Chasta: had no clue. Because, because at that point you didn't know the world.
John: No, I
Chasta: didn't know- And you were just, like- ... like, the whole backstory of-
these 10-year-olds. They're like- [00:24:00] Causing you to have this crash out-
John: But now
Chasta: I'm- ... at the City Club ...
John: I'm part of it. And the- and I'll- You're part of it, yeah ... crash out over a 10-year-old in a heartbeat. Yes. I love these kids, man.
Chasta: Yes. That's the thing- Yeah ... is you get so connected. Yeah. And, and that is, you know, a challenge of having a human-centered performing arts institution- Yeah
is you become very invested in the welfare. And it had just been a very intense period of time, and this song, you know, I think I thought that the way the years ahead would look maybe didn't. They... So many things had happened that were different from the trajectory that I had envisioned.
John: Seven Years, Lucas Graham?
Yes. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Is that an artist? Yep. Give it a listen. I don't know.
Chasta: It takes you through your life.
John: Well, it's funny talking about music because I, and I've talked to you about this before, have a complicated situation with an artist where I actually feel betrayed now.
Chasta: Oh.
John: With Taylor Swift.
Chasta: Oh.
Oh, gosh. Please, the Swifties- Are we, are
John: we- ... are gonna come at us ... I know. I'm just trying everything I can to, like, really get us [00:25:00] canceled, all right? So here's how I feel about Taylor Swift.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: I had the song, a demo of the song Fearless burned onto a CD for me when I was, I guess I had just gotten my license, so it must have been 2006.
Um, and I was like, "Oh my gosh. This person gets me. This is amazing." And I've been a Taylor Swift fan for, what does that make it? Like 20 years.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: Right? That's crazy. But she's a billionaire now.
Chasta: She is.
John: I don't like billionaires. I just don't. Yeah. I don't think they do very good things for humanity, and I think it's been pretty proven, and we talk about that all the time.
And
Chasta: will probably continue to be proven. And we
John: will until they shut us down we will still be doing this. We'll get
Chasta: pulled off all the platforms.
John: And so that's hard for me because she, she's made certain moves recently where a lot of artists I'm not sure they would do the same things. And it's, it's more of like a money, money thing than it is about art
Chasta: Money [00:26:00] motivated.
John: Money motivated.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: And so that's hard for me.
Chasta: Mm-hmm. '
John: Cause that was like my favorite artist for a really, really long time.
Chasta: Yeah.
John: But she's not anymore.
Chasta: Who is?
John: The 1975 and probably Noah Kahan.
Chasta: Shout out Matty Healy.
John: Yeah. So obviously I gotta be on his team, right? Matty Healy will never be a billionaire, I promise you.
Chasta: I have to say Tortured Poets Department was really magical for me. I don't know why. I wasn't in a tortured place of my life at all, but I love that album.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: But that was kind of my... I was never, I, I don't feel the betrayal you felt 'cause I'm kind of Taylor Swift adjacent- Yeah ... because of you. I really love Midnights and Tortured Poets, and then I'm kind of just Back in-
John: Yeah
Chasta: to where I was.
So h- we really enjoy mus- performing arts music. Like, we have a lot of shared commonalities. You know, I'm Lady Gaga for life.
John: Oh, yeah. We've been to some good Lady Gaga concerts.
Chasta: [00:27:00] Yes. So that's- that's really interesting because I think what you're speaking of, and I think what she is a product of, is a system.
It's a system that is facilitating betrayal. And I wanna take that a step back to even when we were talking about this care and concern for this, like, seven years thing and what I was experiencing in regards to some of the children that were caught in the midst of this, um, shift that we had in the company.
When private equity steps into youth activities and dance spaces, there's no one laying awake at night crying over your child. Oh. They're just not. They're
John: crying over their bottom line.
Chasta: Yeah. They don't even know your kid's name.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: And that's something I think that makes me really sad because I know myself, I know our teachers and our staff at the studio, every single one of them have lost sleep over someone or something.
Sure. And that's because they care. And I think when private equity steps into that space, [00:28:00] youth activities, where it's children, art, where it's music, theater, all of these different pieces, we are gonna strip away that human connection and care that is so incredibly valuable and differentiates it from anything else.
John: Like, I mean, I'm sorry. If you're running Dunkin' Donuts and you're running a kids program, that's just not, shouldn't be happening.
Chasta: And Dunkin' Donuts is different than it used to be.
John: Oh, yeah. Big time. Which you would agree. But, I mean, I'm just saying-
Chasta: Yeah ...
John: that that's why we're so-
Chasta: Concerned ...
John: up in, and up and at 'em- Yeah, we feel
Chasta: betrayed
John: about this. We f- yeah.
Chasta: I think it's okay to say we feel betrayed.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: And I think a lot of people do. I'm getting messages all the time of people saying, "Keep talking." Yeah. "We're scared to talk, but keep talking."
John: It's a lot of that. It's a lot of- There's a lot of that ... I didn't wanna say it myself 'cause of, you know, fear of losing work, and I mean, that's tough.
Chasta: I mean, it is tough. You hate
John: to hear that. I've, I've
Chasta: been there.
John: Yeah, I mean, you've lost... I mean, we still have our own [00:29:00] things.
Chasta: Yes.
John: And until Taylor Swift k- kills this one, we've got the- ... you've got the podcast, so sorry about that, but yeah.
Chasta: We've given her a lot of streams.
John: Oh, big time. I was spreading the gospel back when I was like a 16-year-old.
You know, I
Chasta: think we were like a top percentage on Spotify-
John: Look, we- ... a lot of years ... the details are, yeah
Chasta: But yeah, I, it's something that I think about, that sometimes it's not even, I think we might have talked about this on another episode, that it's not even the people involved sometimes in betrayals, it's the process and the systems and the things that emerge that serve as a catalyst to betrayal.
Of what once was is no longer
John: And you can't get it back.
Chasta: And you can't get it back. Actually, I wrote down something that I wanted to... Did you happen to see this graduation speech from Middle Tennessee State University this graduation season?
John: I don't know. I've seen a lot of billionaires getting booed, and I love that.
Keep it up- So this- ... class of 2026 ...
Chasta: so this [00:30:00] is Scott Borchetta. You know who that is. It's a little Taylor Swift adjacent, if I'm being honest. He's the CEO of Big Machine.
John: Oh.
Chasta: So that goes way back to- Yeah ... the whole Scooter Braun, um, that whole, you know, situation. Anyway, he's giving this graduation speech at MTSU about AI.
The students start booing. And what he said back to them, and I, it, I saved this on my social media just as a reminder of, like, how icky it made me feel, because it was almost a threat to the graduates. Do you know what he said to them after they booed?
John: What?
Chasta: He said, "Hear me now or pay me later."
John: Wow Hey, maybe we should stop inviting billionaires to speak at commencements.
Just a thought. Tell us yours in the thoughts within the threads.
Chasta: Come on. I could, I could speak.
John: She's available. Nobody listens to Chasta. Not at [00:31:00] commencement, not on a podcast.
Chasta: But maybe that would be the market, because what I do know is there are so many of these college graduates that are fired up and ready for change, and I think they can make it.
I think a lot of us, this is going a little on a tangent, but I'll get back to betrayal, and I, I think this behavior is emerging because we all feel like we've been betrayed a little bit.
John: Oh, yeah.
Chasta: I think-
Default_2026-05-27_4: You
John: mean that prices aren't supposed to increase- ... by 200% in, like, eight years after the average was, like, 1 to 2%?
Like, what, I mean...
Chasta: So there's, there's a lot of feelings.
John: Yeah.
Chasta: But I think that they are energized, and I think there is strength in community, and that's why I felt like this podcast was so important because I feel like the flip, the counter-narrative isn't getting enough air time. There's not enough conversation of, yeah, we feel betrayed.
We feel betrayed by artists we love. We've seen betrayal in movies and in history, but maybe we thought it wasn't going to happen to us.
[00:32:00] And now here we all are.
John: Here we are.
Chasta: So in that same regard from Mr. Scott's... Cards are flipping out on my end.
John: That was big tech. We're knocking them out.
Chasta: That was literally the word that I was about to say, big tech.
Have they betrayed us?
John: Yes.
Chasta: Has-
John: Easy answer.
Chasta: I mean, this whole, the Google switch, right? Google shifting to a large language model versus a user search interface. Is, is that change or is that a betrayal?
John: I mean, you know how I feel. I-
Chasta: No, I know, but
John: like I'm just trying to- We haven't gotten to my conspiracy episode, but it's coming.
It's coming.
Chasta: You feel really passionate about it.
John: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Big tech, private equity, AI, how all three of those things are having a say in education, which is trickling down into youth activities. [00:33:00] If anything, I think we're feeling a lot of, of big system betrayal right now. Healthcare, which, I mean, goes hand-in-hand with the dentist.
John: This is gonna spiral- We won't get into that, but- ... out of control ...
Chasta: this is, this is a lot, but these are all things that I, that I wanted to bring up today because I think so many times we think betrayal is just a jaded lover. I think betrayal is so much bigger than that, and sometimes if we're feeling discontent, and we've talked about how people are just angry, right?
That these feelings are normal when you feel like you're stuck in a system of betrayal and change. It's complicated
John: Just how are you, like, planning to bring this home and like leave people with a little bit of encouragement?
Chasta: Yeah.
John: You're good at that. I- Please help.
Chasta: Do you feel like you're
John: drowning in betrayal? Oh, yeah. Throw us a raft, Jasta.
Chasta: All right. So let's think about, let's think about this betrayal piece.
Actually, I wore all black today 'cause I knew we were talking about- This betrayal piece ... and it is, it [00:34:00] is heavy. We're It's dark. But I don't think we should avoid it. It's-
John: That's not gonna fix anything,
Chasta: by avoiding ... it's not going to fix it. It's just like we are gonna talk about death at some point on here, too, and grief.
John: Yep.
Chasta: There are things that we simply can't avoid, and betrayal is one of them. It will happen, and you will survive. That's, that's the number one thing is that you will survive betrayals. Betrayals will happen interpersonally, professionally. Maybe you are going to be released for something, or maybe you're going to have to release someone.
There's gonna be hard conversations. There are going to be misalignments. There are going to be people that betray you, that take other people in their betrayal. Other people are going to see you as betraying them And I think that's, that's the experience of life, is that it is never going to be copacetic.
It is not going to be perfect. Sometimes we live and learn through our betrayals, and we say, "Okay, well, [00:35:00] how can we come back better?" Or, "That really hit me hard. Why is that and what can I do?" Sometimes it's a, "Okay, this was so bad and so terrible, you've just got to burn it all down and build it back up."
And that was kind of what was happening to me during the seven years Lucas Graham period. And I think people have to know this is where the community is and this is where the hope is, is when you are betrayed, when trust is broken, when you... It feels very lonely typically, because people aren't out waving their betrayal badges.
But it's a commonality. We've all experienced it, right?
John: Have you- We all probably will betray someone-
Chasta: Yes ... at some point, right? Or at least it will be perceived-
John: Perceived
Chasta: that way ... that we have betrayed someone or something. A cause that we stood behind, something we've walked away from, someone we've walked away from.
We are all flawed humans. That's the commonality. That is the counterculture perspective, is that betrayals are [00:36:00] out there. You know, we talk about Hamilton a lot in our house right now.
John: Our five-year-old does. Yeah. And so we have to. Yeah.
Chasta: So we activate these conversations, and I think a really powerful thing that I've taken away from teaching him about some of these things that interest him is flaws, like, humans are flawed Alexander Hamilton accomplished great things.
Also a flawed human
John: Majorly
Chasta: And I'm not sure there's anyone that we can look at that isn't flawed. Shades and spectrums, to your point, but it's what, what, what is done with the flaws, and I think that's where we kind of assess. Like, it's okay to opt out. Boundaries are a huge part of managing betrayal and trust, and I hope that we get to talk about boundaries in a future episode because I think boundaries are really important.
But I think boundaries are a bridge to navigating betrayal and trust.
John: I think [00:37:00] you're right
Chasta: Self-protection, conversation, community, values, really knowing what and who you stand for. One thing that's helped me when I've felt betrayed by differing thoughts or preferences, um, you know, navigating the boycott a few years ago, is how, what are your values, and how do you stand on those values in really challenging times?
And my personal kinda guidepost is what is the pro-humanity, pro-humanity decision here? What's in the best overall choice for the children of all backgrounds, and how can we create an environment that best reflects that? And where does the misalignment occur, and how can we have conversations to try to prevent that, but also with the knowledge that it's not always preventable?
John: If you stand for nothing, Burr, what'll you fall for? [00:38:00]
Chasta: It's true. So I think standing for something helps, helps those navigations.
John: Yeah, it helps that moment
Chasta: And that doesn't mean you have to enter every arena, right? Because a lotta times people will say, "Speak out on this, speak out on this," but I always have to say, "Well, how, does this make sense in my main goals of what I'm trying to accomplish?"
Because you can really get caught in the weeds.
John: Yeah
Chasta: People want a statement on everything right now. So I think that's-
John: Yeah, they got a couple of mine there, so yeah
Chasta: Of your positions
John: A couple of my statements.
Chasta: Yeah. It's, it's like even the Pope putting out his encyclical
John: I just, I really needed the Pope to tell me what he thought about AI, so
Chasta: I'm, but I'm glad he did
John: I'm, yeah, I'm hap- I'm, I'm glad that he-
Chasta: Because I don't think there's been a lot of people offering counter-narratives
John: Yep
Chasta: I think that's what we have to encourage, is the counter-nar- like, let's bring the counter perspective into the [00:39:00] conversation, too
John: As much as we can
Chasta: As much as we can, as, and as often as we can.
All right, well, betrayal It's not always good. It's usually not good.
John: It's generally not.
Chasta: It's going to feel bad, but it is going to possibly give you the gift of something you didn't know that you needed, whether it's a reminder, values positioning, an opportunity, that there's always ... I always like to say there's promise in the pain So we just have to find it.
John: You promise?
Chasta: I promise. Thanks for coming on today and sharing all your thoughts.
John: Yeah, you know, I mean, I was... I'm good at losing betrayal. Yeah, you really pick great episodes for me to come on, so thank you.
Chasta: It's just because I know you'll be honest.
John: I'm a betraying loser.
Chasta: No. But we did say we love rooting for an underdog.
John: We do.
Chasta: Speaking of, we would [00:40:00] love to hear if you have experienced betrayals in your life, friendships, professionally. If you're feeling it in the systems of the world, reach out, share that with us. There is community in connecting, and I'm appreciating all of the messages that you're sending in. We are using those to help us determine all the things that we want to talk about, because we know that there is power and healing in conversation.
Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Subscribe, share, and we'll see you on the next episode if you continue to listen. [00:41:00]