Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Bigger Why is a long-form podcast exploring meaning, growth, mindset, purpose and the decisions that shape a life and drive behavior.
Hosted by Sam Weber, the show features unhurried conversations with founders, CEOs, authors, creators, artists, actors, investors and thought leaders about focus, ambition, failure, regret, triumph, philosophy, personal growth and the stories behind success, sacrifices made, lessons gleaned and wisdom embodied along the way.
FINAL EPISODE
00:00:00 Speaker: What if my journey of living in my bed, addicted to every narcotic under the sun. Being so depressed. I wanted to die every single day. Um. You know, not showing up to my life. What if that wasn't in my life span? Wrong. Because it was exactly what had to happen for me to awaken. For me to remember who the love inside of me. That my body was always so good. You know, I, I hated my body before that wreck. I demonized my body. I thought she was fat. It was gross. You know, I had massive body dysmorphia, and then pain moved in and I. Then I thought my body hated me. Right. And I was on this other journey. I'm like, my body hates me and I'm stuck in this. Mhm. And now I'm like, what if all of that was this perfect part of my soul's journey to come to this invitation of remembering this beautiful body was always so good and so worthy in holding all of it for me and getting so loud so that she could ultimately invite me in to doing this work in this inner, holy, sacred work of remembering goodness and worthiness and deservedness just because I exist. Period. End of story. I don't have to do shit to earn that. Welcome back to the bigger why? My guest today is Ruthie Lindsey. Ruthie's story is one of extraordinary resilience, healing, and transformation. At a young age, she experienced a traumatic accident that led to years of chronic pain, medical challenges, and questions that most of us hope will never have to face. But what makes Ruthie's journey so compelling isn't simply what happened to her, it's what she discovered along the way through suffering, uncertainty, and the loss of life she once experienced, Ruthie found something deeper a path towards self-acceptance. authenticity and a more expansive understanding of what it means to be truly alive today. She's a writer, speaker, and the author of the best selling memoir, there I am, a book that has resonated with readers around the world because it speaks to a universal truth that our greatest wounds can sometimes become the doorway to our greatest growth. Ruthy is also a healer, a therapist, and overall an incredible human being. In this conversation, we talk about pain, identity, healing, faith, relationships, and what it means to stop performing for the world and to start becoming who you really are and who you're always meant to be. This is a conversation about meaning when life doesn't go according to plan, and discovering that sometimes the life we never wanted comes the life that teaches us the most. Before we begin as a reminder, the bigger why is an independent podcast in which I explore topics that are meaningful to me in my own personal capacity. Any statements made by me or Ruthie on this episode are made in our own personal capacities. For additional information, please visit our website, thebigger dot com. Thank you for listening. Thank you. That is such a generous opening. I'm so appreciative. I'm so glad to be with you. Thank you for asking me. Um, so maybe just to start because not everyone necessarily has read your book, if you don't mind just taking us back to seventeen. Um, you know, your life at the time you write it with such pros and there's like this ephemeral beauty in how you describe your childhood. So take us back to the seventeen year old Ruthie. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. Like, I am so proud of that book. And I would probably write a different book today because there's things I wasn't aware of. There's things I was not conscious of yet and I'm very, very proud. But it invited me into a whole new level of awareness, of remembering, of unlearning. And, you know, when I wrote the book, I thought so much of my life, the pain began just when that wreck happened. And then I did a lot of therapy and a lot of trauma work and understood like I actually wasn't very well when it happened. You know, on the outside looking in, I learned to be very performative. I was like homecoming queen and cheerleading captain and basketball captain. And, you know, I knew what I needed to do to get people to like me. I was very popular. I also had like a debilitating eating disorder. I, um, there was a lot of things that I did not know how to meet yet. Um, but on the outside looking in, you know, it was like I had just gotten homecoming queen. Um, I was a senior in high school. Everything looked really great. And then I have this really debilitating car accident where I actually died. Um, yeah, I've had like memories of it, um, that I didn't remember for a really long time. And I was hit by an ambulance. He hit me on my car door. I broke a lot of things, but I also broke the top two vertebrae in my neck, and I had a five percent chance to live and a one percent chance to walk. And back then, like you said, you know, they used wire and spinal cord fusions and they did. And I was on life support, the whole thing. But I walked out of there after about a month out of the hospital, and I had a big old neck brace, but I didn't have tools yet to know how to even handle what kind of trauma I was. So I was disassociated before the wreck happened. And then I was gone after and I just plastered a big smile on. I would talk about it kind of in third person. Um, I'm a storyteller. So it was kind of a cool story to tell, you know, and I, um, went kind of back to life as normal. I would talk about it like how hard it was on my family, but I was like, I don't even remember it. I was on life support, you know, I'm fine. Um, obviously I was not fine and didn't do any therapy after or anything. Just kind of, we all kind of went back to life as normal as much as we could. And, um, so, so you're kind of popularity in a way, was your self-identity basically? Oh, totally. You know, when I was a little girl and everyone was doing the best they could and my family loved me so much and they did what they knew. Right. But, um, every day when I'd come home, I'd get the message literally, my sweet mama would say, what did they say about you today? Would they say about your outfit? Would they say about how you looked? And if I say how pretty you were, what did they say? So I learned my identity is in what everyone, the right people say about me. Um, and so I learned how to mold myself, to fit myself in a really small box for belonging. I knew what I needed to do to get people to like me. I remember having a conscious thought in second grade about seven of if you just smile really big and just ask people questions about themselves, they'll love you. Probably true. And I was not wrong. I was right. Like I had such a crazy high EQ, but I was terrible in school. School was my like nightmare. I had probably had some pretty severe learning disabilities and that were undiagnosed. Um, I couldn't read until like third grade, but I could like read a person. ADHD. Absolutely. Because there was some stuff where you described like, oh, you're constantly looking out at the playground. Totally. And I was thinking like, oh, that to me seems like nowadays. And secondly, they would give you. Oh my God. Like I have friends whose kids are in like nature schools or like Montessori schools. I'm like, I would have thrived. Me sitting in a desk all day. Oh. Kill me. I wanted to I, I nailed the playground, nailed the playground. But school was really hard for me. So, you know, there was a lot going on behind the scenes, but I had the pretty smile, you know, tied up in a pretty bow and knew who I needed to be to get light and to get that affirmation from other people, which for me was taught like was ground zero importance. Um, I didn't know who I was outside of that. And, you know, there's something. Listen, we can talk to the universe, to God about it when we go back there, but there is this beauty in your world crumbling and falling apart. Because who I thought I was, I did all the right things. I was the good Christian girl. I married my first boyfriend. I worked at a church. You know, I knew what I needed to do to, you know, show up and be liked in this world. And my world still completely crumbled. And in my twenties, I had been married probably a year when we didn't know it yet, but this wire broke and pierced my brainstem. And you know, at the time, it was the most detrimental, heartbreaking, you know? All I wanted was to be a mom. I envisioned, you know, having all these babies and then adopting all these babies, every color under the sun. Like, I just wanted a home filled with children. And all of a sudden, I'm in debilitating pain. And I was put on narcotics because they couldn't figure out what was going on. It took them years to figure out the wire was in my brain stem. Um, I, you know, got in a bed, took narcotics, watched reality TV all day, and ate my feelings. This disordered eating became really extreme. It was already bad, but then I just was binging constantly. And you know, you don't actually mention the anything about the eating stuff. Totally. Was that a conscious decision to leave it out? Why? You know, I think there was just a lot that I wasn't. It was so normalized where I, like all my friends, were on diets. All my friends were obsessive. I don't think I even was conscious of how bad it was. Like it's I know that sounds kind of crazy because other things that felt so much bigger and now I've, you know, I've delved deep. I've become a trauma informed somatic practitioner and it's sent me on such an inner journey of preverbal trauma. Like I delved deep in the last six years on trauma. I mean, I wrote this book in twenty eighteen, right? And so I didn't know about so many of those things yet until I learned I was so neck up. Right. And learning about all of these things transformed how I even saw so much of my story. It helped me understand so much more root causes. Um, yeah, that I just wasn't aware of. Or maybe there was like even a part of me that felt shame of certain parts that I just kind of hid away, you know? Um, because now I'm like, oh, it's so clear to me. It's so evident that I was in survival mode completely, you know, and it's never that I ever question. I knew how loved I was, like my family loved me so much and told me all the time. And it's just human people doing human things and everyone doing their best, you know, because people think if there's trauma, like what, what is the trauma for? Something bad has to happen. Totally. And it could be, you know, a mom who is deeply struggling and can't like, attune and attach to you, you know, or it could be that they were in the school of thought that you cry it out and you just let your baby cry constantly until they stop crying. And, you know, there was a lot of that for me. And, um, everybody again, it's like, I can hold two things at once and hold a lot of nuance and have so much compassion and own that for my sensitive body, it was really painful and scary and traumatic. Right. Um, but, you know, it's also so interesting. So like, I lived in a bed for seven years on the highest level of fentanyl, morphine, hydrocodone, Ambien, Cymbalta, like kind of name a drug. I've been on it. Oh my god. And up to that point, I never drank. I'd never done drugs. But I'm like, I'm the good girl. And then like, here you go, doctors, give me this and tell me to do it. And I'm like, mm, I mean, I loved it. And what I've done, I do you know what shadow work is? Yeah. So I do a lot of shadow work. Like that's a huge part. It's probably because I have so much Scorpio in my chart, but I love understanding and that's um, what's the guy's name? Carl Jung. Yeah, yeah. Jung. Right, right. The shadow work. Yeah. And there's a book called Existential Kink that I'm obsessed with. Um, and it's not for everyone. I'm obsessed with it. It's made so much sense to me. But what? There's a school of thought that, you know, these unconscious parts of us are driving us, and it's the parts that we were told were dirty, bad, sinful, shameful. You know, our culture, we're taught so many insane conditioned belief systems. Especially if we're an organized religion or there's just so much. And so those parts of us don't go away because we're taught they're dirty, bad, sinful, evil, depraved, to lock it away in the closet and it's gonna come out sideways and it's gonna unconsciously drive our lives. Like Carl Jung would say, until you awaken, about five percent of you is conscious and about ninety five percent which is driving the bus is unconscious. It's like, why we have all these goals and ideas, yet we still fall into these patterns and addictions, and we don't understand why we keep doing this or why we keep choosing partners that, you know, treat us crappy, or why we keep choosing men that like break up with us right away and won't attach to us. It's like these unconscious wounds that we were taught and that we suppressed. We were shown and they don't just go away. And so until I always say the quote a little bit wrong, but Carl Jung has a quote that says, until the unconscious becomes conscious, we'll have the same result over and over and call it fate and think that's just the way it is. It's like, why? Because it is kind of like fate, but it's also self-fulfilling in that you led to that you're co-creating this reality. It's like why a child of alcoholics will choose a partner who's an alcoholic. It's like unconsciously that's what you know. Yeah, totally. And what I realized in doing shadow work is, and especially through the book Existential Kink, which she has her PhD in Jungian psychology, she talks about how there is some need met in these unconscious things, in these patterns that we have, or else we wouldn't keep doing them. And if you can actually learn to embrace them with out judgment, because anything we judge, we're stuck with. Period. End of story. Right. We shame it, we're stuck with it. But if you learn how to stop it because you're feeding you. Totally. And it's just it's not going to move. It's going to only grow if you're judging it and shaming it. That thing that you can't stand the pattern that that you hate, the addiction, that you can't stand all of that, you're going to be stuck with it when you're judging it and shaming it. But if you actually learn to meet it. If you actually learn to see how it's actually serving you on some level, that you're getting something out of it, and to meet it with self-compassion, to meet it with acceptance. Not to say that this is how it has to be forever at all. Actually, when you do that, it gets to move. It doesn't have to be the driver of the bus anymore. And what I realized, which felt so profound for me, is in that time, you know, I'm a year into this marriage. I got married because we felt guilty for having sex because we were sweet little earnest any idiot Christians. And all of a sudden I'm in this life that I don't really want. I'm working at a church that I don't really believe a lot of these things anymore. I don't believe gay is sinful. I don't believe that I'm a teacher. I couldn't teach men like, hello, you know, there are things that I'm like, this feels crazy to me. And I started questioning a lot, but I still was so conditioned. If this is what it needs to look like and my world imploding, all of a sudden I get to lay in bed. I get to take these drugs that I loved. I get to not show up to this life that I don't really like. I don't have to show up to a marriage that I don't really want to be in. I don't have to show up to a church that I don't really believe in anymore. And I get to numb out, eat my treats all day long, and people are giving me a lot of like, care and attention, and I don't have to do anything I don't want to do anymore. I can get out of anything I don't want to do. Was I miserable and in so much pain? Yes. Did I also love it? Yeah. I got so many needs met in that time. People took care of me. Um, there were people that, like, cared for me in ways that I deeply needed, and a lot of needs were met, and I can really honor that part of me. Was it a really, really dark, shadowy, awful time? Yes. And now I'm like, I'm so in love with that girl. Like she invited me. Being that miserable being that checked out from life, wanting to die every day, she invited me into to doing some of the deepest soul remembering embodied work. I could not meet my clients in the way that I get to meet my clients. Like, you know, I had a lot of sessions with clients today and I'm like, in awe that this is like the dharma that I chose in this life that I get to have lived through all this insanity, which we've barely scratched the surface, but I get to meet people exactly where they are and love them and attune to them in ways that I could never do if I hadn't lived through the insanity that I lived through. And I think it was all a part of my journey, right? I can again, I love nuance, I can hold two things at once. Was it fucking brutal? Yes. Was it awful when I wish it on anyone? No. And wow, I'm in awe of my soul for what she signed up to experience in this life so that I could be this version of me today. This remembering. Breaking up with this little tiny box of conformity that I folded my little six one body into to try to belong, you know. So do you. I mean, firstly, you do have this sense of kind of like glowing awareness and gratitude and appreciation, which like, does come through. Um, but do you like looking back? Do you think that, you know, these, um, small dogmatic, whatever their religion may be, um, like, do you think there's like pros and cons to it? Because I think, I think, I think it is in a way helpful because it does have the community aspect of it. And there's a framework there that makes things kind of easy for people, or at least like some structure. But then at the same time, sometimes people, I think will then supplement the structure for the end, and then the end becomes the main thing, right? It's like all serving the end, even if the end is not necessarily working for somebody. I love that question. Does it have a perfect place? Yes. I'm so grateful that that exists for people to like. I was actually telling another client today, I'm like, whatever route people need to experience divinity, to feel more connected, to feel more love. I'm like, Amen. I love that. Who cares what avenue it's through, I don't care. Now when I was younger, you know, we love feeling special. We just do. We love feeling special. I loved feeling like I'm the chosen one. I have all the answers. I'm a part of it. And like my denomination is the one. We're predestined. We have all the answers. It helped me feel safety, right? This is what I need to do to have eternal life, to be safe, to be connected, to be in the know, to be in the IT crowd and purpose now. Oh, totally. It gave me a purpose. It played such an important role. You know, Richard Rohr, who I love, he was a big toe back in when after I had deconstructed a lot of my faith because, you know, my world imploded. I'd done all the things and my life was total shit show. My husband left me. I mean, there were so many things that were terrible. And and, you know, Richard Rohr talks about order, disorder, reorder, like a very natural progression for humans is come here. We want the safety of the order. Give me the tiny box. What do I need to do? I want to have all the answers. And we can still live in this dualistic mentality. It's us against them. I'm the answer. I have the chosen one I have. You know, I'm so special. Those people out there, they're dangerous. Um, we either need to bring them into the fold or kind of stay away from them because they're not, they don't get it right. And everyone's not going to leave that box in this life. And what if their journey is freaking perfect? I happen to believe in past lives also down to be wrong about literally everything. Everything. I'm like, change my mind. I'm so down to have my mind changed. But for me, if it helps me love myself and others more, I don't really care, I don't care. It is. It is scary and um, kind of the options. There's just too many options out there. So if you don't have the structure, then it's like, well, what's a worthy use of my time? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you know, it's like there's a real, there's such beauty in it. Like for a single, I was talking about this the other day for a single mom, like she can go to church and it's safe for her to be there. And she has a built in community of people that are helping. Like we don't have that in a lot of other places. I think a lot of people are struggling because they don't have that. Oh, it's heartbreaking. It's we're hard wired for it. And that's a structure that has that built in which I am like, so grateful that people have that. I'm so grateful that I had that right. Mine looks different now because I deeply have community now. It's just not in that setting. But for people, you know, it feels safe. It feels safe. Tell me what to do. This is what I need to do to be a good person, to be, to have eternal life, to whatever. And for some people, it doesn't work anymore. Their world implodes. They have a disease. They they go through a divorce, they start, you know, whatever, and they can move into disorder, which I danced there for a good long time. And oftentimes you kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater. You're like, fuck that. I don't want anything to do with that. Like I played in that zone and I can still tiptoe there, please. You know? And in disorder, there's still a dualistic mindset. It's still us against them. It's still black and white thinking because then it's like, and a lot of times it might be conservative and a little more liberal. So a lot of times here, it's like those effing idiots, those closed minded, just keep right. And you think you're better. It's just dressed up in a new outfit. It's the same shit. We're still judging everybody. We still think we're the special one. We still think we're the one that's, you know, awakened and whatever. And the third, And some people might not leave that in this life. And what if that's their perfect journey, right? And the third is reorder. And that's when you move into more nuance, more non-dual thinking. When you actually learn to listen to the goddess God within you. You don't need something outside because it's always been here all along. And I am one with all things. Do I forget this all the time? Yes. And then I remember again. And like, you know, I am. No, I'm not separate from you. I'm not separate from the trees. I'm not separate from this planet. I'm not separate from animals. I am we are all connected. We just come here with amnesia and we forget that oneness. And in that non-dual thinking, it's a deep remembering. It is a deep unlearning. Because I don't even say I'm on a healing journey more. I say I'm on a wholeness journey because wholeness means all of me, all my parts. The shadowy shit part, the patterns, the addictive Addictions, the, you know, all the judgmental, the whole amazing, loving, generous, funny, like all of me gets to be here. And the more I embrace all of me, the more I'm able to embrace all of you, and the more I'm able to embrace all of my clients and all of like my family who I don't see eye to eye. We think very differently. We vote very differently. We are. And what if there's nothing wrong with that? What if their journey is so perfect? Right? And I want to dance in nuance. I want to dance in that non-dual. Like everything gets to be here. And it doesn't mean that I don't stand up to injustice. It doesn't mean that I don't, you know, have really amazing boundaries. All of those things are still true. But when you're standing up for injustice, it's not that, oh, the other team is, you know, scoring points like, shoot, we need to attack back. It's like, no, no, no, I'm, I feel like there's a certain energy that, you know, I need to combat. Maybe, but you're not coming at it from like a, a, a objectives like point of view where like, now you're threatening my way of thinking. So I need to lash out totally. You know, it was so interesting. We were with family last weekend, um, for my brother in law's birthday, who I love them so much. I love them so freaking much. And there's three couples and Eric and I are a little different, you know, and his family are pretty conservative and really, really, really in the church and see God through a very specific lens and, you know, vote very differently than me. And I'm obsessed with them. And on Saturday night, um, one of the ladies who I love, like, I'm so grateful I get to be in this family. You know, she brought up something about Democrats or whatever. And a fun subject. Totally. And here's the thing, I I'm like, call me purple. I'm like, I think both sides are so full of shit and I am not here that like this die hard liberal. That is not me. Do I lean that way? Yeah. Do I lean towards more of like, the poor and the middle class? Yeah. And I'm not I'm not out there like living that truth. All that to say, she brought up a few things that I, you know, everything I've learned, everything I've read. Just see it completely different. And we ended up having the most beautiful conversation because I was like, sis, I want you to Google the exact same thing that I'm googling right now about what you're talking about. And I showed her my phone next to her phone. And of course, every article was different. Hers proved her point, mine proved my point. And I'm like, we are all in these echo chambers. Everyone's getting. We're not only in our churches and our families and in our friend groups. But algorithms are echo chambers. Like if I Google the same thing as my family, they would give very, very different information, right? And I was like, and she was like, what? Like, couldn't believe I'd already played this game with other friends. And I was like, you're being reinforced the same information that you want to hear. And it's like, well, everyone else is agreeing with me. And that's why they're like, how could you believe that? They're out there murdering babies and they're out there, like, just all these people are abusing the system. And I'm like, right, well, of course that's the news you're getting. Yeah, right. And of course, my news is really, really, really different. And what was so precious that I'm so in love with is I'm like, I adore you. And I see the way that you love people and I see the way you care for people, that you don't get anything back in return. That is all I care about. I could give two shits what you believe about all this stuff. I don't care, I don't care, I love you, I adore you. How fun that we can, like, have this and this is what it's about. And then we went and played a game and, like, laughed our asses off and, like, had the best night. And it was just I'm like, this is this is what I'm here for. I want to live in that new, like, what if nothing's wrong with you believing all these things? It's not my job. She didn't try to change my mind or fix me. I did not try to change her mind. Did either of us leave with, like, different opinions about what we believe? Probably not. I know, and that's not my job. That's not the past version of me. What felt like it is I need to fix you. I need you to think like me. I need you to change your mind, I need you. But that's the that's the period where you said the disorder, period where you're still transitioning from one box to another box, but you're still in another box. Totally. And you're doing the same shit in a new outfit. Yeah. And even like, I've been real deep in like spiritual communities because like, listen, I love science and I'm probably pretty woo woo. I'm so in love with God, I don't even know. That is like what drives how I want to be of service on this planet. Like every day I'm like, God, use me. And now my definition of God is very different, right? Yeah. Like people think I'm going to go to hell because I'm not in the church or calling myself a Christian anymore, even though I'm like, what's ironic is when I was in the church, I had no relationship with God. It was all lip service I was doing. And not to say that there aren't, I have friends that are in the church and love. That was my journey. And ironically, now that is what is my foundation in everything I do before my relationship, before any my work. It's like, that's the number one driver. That is my foundation. That is how I want to show up. Like how use my voice, use my heart, use my eyes. Like how, how do you want me to serve and be of service to the collective on this planet that is my deepest, holiest desire, period. And, you know, and for some precious humans, like, because I don't fit in that box there really earnestly concerned that I'm going to go to hell, which I'm like, update I remember my death. I don't believe in hell. And also, I'm so glad that that works for you. You know, that is not even on the realm of possibility for me, um, after remembering my death. But but they feel that it's their responsibility. It's earnest. Yeah. It's because they love me so much and they're taught that if I don't buy into this story, I'm going to burn in hell. Right? And they it's so earnest. And before I think I would have been really I was I would be really offended. And I need them to understand where I'm coming from. And now I'm like, thank you for your prayers. That is so kind because I know you love me. Like I had a family member reach out to me a few years ago and she was like, do you need help? I can help you. I can help you escape. Like I'm in a cult or something. And it was at first, of course, my ego was like, get the fuck out of here. Oh my God. And in my head, I'm like, do you need help? Because I can help you. And then she's young. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you. This is you loving me so hard and reaching out to me in this way. I feel how much you love me, you precious soul. Thank you so much for loving me so much and I'm doing so great. Like. Thank you. And it it's earnest, it's earnest, but it's. And it's also like, if something is black and white, I think it's a sense of like idealism, which we all long for. Like we all want things to be perfect. We all want things to be in that way where everything is tied up, tidy with a bow and not messy. And like, if you have exactly, if you have like the rules, black and white, it's like, okay, we know the answer, we know how things go, but like, totally, totally. And I'm just like a mantra that I say when, especially when I'm around people that live really differently than me. Like my partner is sober. I don't drink, you know, being around and you live in Nashville and I live in Nashville, and I grew up in South Louisiana, right, where alcoholism is normalized and just. That's how you live, right? And I'll be around things that just don't work for me. And a story that I a mantra that I say, I'm like, what if nothing's wrong? What if it's not my job to like, change the way they see this? What if it's not my job to like, fix anything? What if this journey now, if someone's harming someone or harming someone, that's a I'm not talking about that, you know, but I'm like, what if nothing's wrong and it's not my job to change it or make it bad, or make it wrong or make my journey bad or wrong or right. Like, this is just the journey. And I'm here to show up as love. Period. End of story. To be love. Interesting. Well, why like one question why does it have to be that? What if nothing's wrong. I can. What was it? What if nothing's wrong? I can just do my thing. Yeah, I can just show up and be who I am. And they get to show up and be exactly who they are. And. But let me ask you why. Why can't it be? Maybe something is wrong, but at the same time, you still can. It's not like, what if that's not your like, yeah, maybe something is wrong, but it's just not you're not tasked like it's not your job necessarily to fix it, right? It's like people have different roles and tasks. And so let's say something is wrong, but we're going to get to where we need to go. And you have your experiences and you and your unique vantage point and stuff. And it's just like, I don't want you to interfere. Like that's not what I hired you for. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. I'm just asking. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it just it's my own lens of like, non-judgment, right? Because my thinking in my ego and my judgment wants to say the way you're living is wrong. The way you see God is wrong. The way that you vote is wrong. Mhm. And I'm like, I, you know, truthfully, what if nothing. Okay, this is very meta and it's very zoomed out, right? But like, what if my journey of living in my bed, addicted to every narcotic under the sun, being so depressed, I wanted to die every single day. Um, you know, not showing up to my life. What if that wasn't in my life span wrong? Because it was exactly what had to happen for me to awaken. For me to remember who the love inside of me, that my body was always so good. You know, I, I hated my body before that wreck. I demonized my body. I thought she was fat. It was gross. You know, I had massive body dysmorphia. And then pain moved in and I then I thought my body hated me. Right. And I was on this other journey. I'm like, my body hates me and I'm stuck in this. Mhm. And now I'm like, what if all of that was this perfect part of my soul's journey to come to this invitation of remembering this beautiful body? It was always so good and so worthy and holding all of it for me, and getting so loud so that she could ultimately invite me in to doing this work and this inner, wholly sacred work of remembering goodness and worthiness and deservedness just because I exist. Period. End of story. I don't have to do shit to earn that. Like, I love what Liz Gilbert says, who I just treasure. And she's like, if I lost my mind and all of a sudden I was living under a bridge spitting at people while they walk by. I could not be any more loved in that moment by God than I am. If I am like out saving the world, nothing can take away God's love from us. Period. End of story. We are worthy and deserving and love because we exist, and that if that's all I gained from everything I lived through. Amen. Like that is like the holiest remembering ever. And you know, when clients come to me in their world's imploding, which happens a lot. I can hold two things for them because I'm like, and this is not what I say to them from the jump, right? I'm like going to sit and I'm going to listen and I'm going to hold space. Um, but in my head, I'm like, so empathically sorry that they're going through this. And in the other side of me, I'm like, oh, you are right on time. Here you go. Because, you know, every breakdown is this profound opportunity for breakthrough. Every implosion of your world is the greatest opportunity for things that died away, that were never who you were in the first. Nothing can die away. That's yours. Condition parts die away. Right? Who I thought I was died. My world imploded. So what? I thought I needed to be in the world. You know, I mean, when I was having nervous breakdowns, that was my worst nightmare. Because all of a sudden, this good girl that always had everything together, everyone knows that I'm losing my mind. Can't even function, can't even get in the shower. Literally couldn't take care of myself. And how important was that? Because it stripped away who I thought I needed to be in this world to be deserving. You never would have stripped that away. Hell no. That was my foundation of what I thought made me important and made me special. And then I had, you know, all these, like, Hollywood people that thought I was special. And I blew that up, too. And I walked away from all that. Not that any of that's bad or wrong, but I wasn't fully in alignment of what felt true for me. I was still performing. I was unconsciously using people because it made me feel special not using them, doing anything manipulatively. But I'm like, you want to be my friend? Oh, okay. You're special, you're important. You think I'm special? Okay, I'll do what you need me to do to fit in here, you know? And now, the people that are in my life, as I lean more into, like, authenticity and integrity, what is drawn in the. It is like. I mean, I was with a group of women this weekend and I look around and I just started crying. I'm like, this is my life. I get to be friends. And no one in the world has heard their names, right? No one has heard their names. They do not know who these humans are. And I'm like, I have hit the jackpot on a level I can't describe to you. These women blow. They their expanders. I feel so filled with love, received and given when I am in their presence. And that is my community today. And that's all I really for my inner circle, make space for. And it's so. It feels so good. It feels. There's no like, you know, even for my birthday, we did a women's circle on a new moon and I was like, really heavy. That weekend I was filled with so much grief, so much sadness, so much pain came up. And the second I walked in the door, I'm like, here's how I'm showing up today. I feel like asshole. Part of me wanted to cancel this because I feel like, are you, are you leading it? No, you're part of yeah, they wanted to do this for my birthday and like, it was so holy because then they got to meet me. I didn't have to pretend that that's not it's like, here's how I'm showing up. I'm bringing this package. I loved that part of me. And it opened up space for others to share, right? It was just like, it's so it felt so easeful. I'm like, I that's the only kind of friends that I have space for that are in my inner circle. Like I have tons of friends that I adore. They're just not my people. Can I, can I venture to guess something? Yes. My guess, I'm just guessing is like pretty much most people are like that. Once you get past the facade, the, you know, fake layering, like, like, I really feel like most people can sit down with most other people like we're doing now, right? We've never met before other than briefly on Zoom. Right. And you can have a pretty deep conversation, even though you come from totally different universes. Because at the end of the day, like people want the same thing for the most part, but you can't get it's like so frustrating to me. Like you just can't break through. You need to have a reason to break through. And it's hard to break through. Like you just can't break through with the random person on the street. You can, can you? It's hard. I try it, say hello to someone on the street. Oh, really? But that's also my personality. I'm like, I don't know if you know the Enneagram. I'm a four. I know the Enneagram Surfacey conversations are my Kryptonite. And so ask me how many cab drivers have cried in the car with me. Like, that's just how I'm wired. Or like the person next to me on the flight is like, you know, I just, this is what I, This is what I. But I know that's not that's not. Most people know, but that's like my Mo. That's all I know. That's. I'm so bored with surfacey conversations. Yeah. I mean, I can do it. I totally do it. And I mean, it's such a fair thing to say. That's funny, but it's just not fun to me. Yeah, no, my brothers are four, but I think of four is as more tinkerer's of toys and like getting into. Yeah, like getting into how is this made? And like heat, my brother had like all these little science kits and like, he was always trying to figure stuff out. That's how I think of that. He probably has a five wing, maybe because that's a, that's a really strong five. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's so fun. It's just a fun tool. But yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. It's what we're all actually longing for. Yeah. So it's like you're sitting there with all these women and like the fact that you're able to bring up your natural self signals to them like, okay, yeah, I guess we're fine. Like we're fine just showing up how we are. Totally. And, you know, even in my work, like it's not centered on me at all, but I share myself because I. And that's and interestingly enough, I'd say, you know, probably over half of my clients are therapists, but there's something really freeing in me sharing my patterns, things I've struggled with my own insecurities. It allows us just to be so human. I am not I have not arrived anywhere there. I do not believe in hierarchical like I am not above my clients. Um. I'm here to mirror to them and help them remember the love that's inside of them. To remember their own, knowing their own and you know, their own bodies. Yes and no. But like, there's something so holy about when I share my shadowy shit, when I share my struggles, when I share my stuff, because my whole thing is like, what if every part of you belongs here. I am not asking for perfection. That's actually the opposite of what I'm asking for. You get to be so human and you can tell me things like, I would be a rich woman if I made money off every time someone said, I've never told that to someone before, and I get to look them in the eye and say, oh, I love that part of you, and that part of you gets to be here too. And we can grieve it, you know, we can. Maybe there's people that you need to ask forgiveness for, but like, I love that part of you too. And that is a survival part of you. And that helped you survive and get to this place. So we get to meet it with a lot of compassion and a lot of care and shame is just there's no shame or blame that is like not allowed in my, you know, and when it comes up, which it will, because I have it in me too. How can we meet that with so much compassion and awareness and kindness? Um, how can we feel that in our body and move that through our body and tell it a truer story, you know, and I think shame. Oh, don't even get me started on shame. But shame is just such a prevalent thing that keeps so many people stuck in patterns and, um, self-harm, like it's a form of self-harm. You know, it's like making myself really bad instead of this pattern is maybe causing struggle. Shame says I'm bad. Something is inherently bad and wrong with me. And if I can help someone mirror more compassion and kindness and love for themselves. What a great day, right? What a great day, right? What do you think about ifs? My wife's ifs therapist. She's obsessed. Yeah, because you say the word parts. Parts. Oh, ifs. Parts. Yes. Um, I'm not an IFS practitioner, but I it's also there's a lot of overlap with IFS and shadow work. Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of overlap. I, I've done my own, um, my own training, but also, uh, worked with ifs therapists. I, it's so profound. And when you, when you overlap ifs with trauma informed embodiment work. Holy crap. It took it to a whole other level for me because when I first started doing IFS, it could keep me up here, right? But when I was able to move that with embodiment of like, what am I actually feeling when I hear that story or when that part comes up? Holy crap, the somatic has to be part of the picture. It's so powerful. Holy crap. It's so powerful. Yeah, it's been amazing. Yeah. That's interesting because I think it's easy in therapy to kind of talk about it and but you're still like keeping it at a distance until you're able to bring it into the body. I mean, I had done twenty years of talk therapy before, and I'm so grateful it gave me new levels of awareness. But for me, and this isn't everyone's journey, but until I started doing somatic work, um, things didn't really move. Mhm. The somatic piece shifted things for me and shifted patterns for me in ways that talk therapy. I was talking about emotions instead of actually feeling emotions. Yeah. You know, talking about trauma and not knowing how to be with it. The performative girl who's like getting good grades is like, hey, am I doing therapy right? Did I do good today? Like, because you can still do that. Totally. And I just like, you know, there's also a part of me, like, ask me how many certifications I have and how many trainings I've done and how many, dear God. And you know, there's a part of me that still held on to the belief system. You know, in my church, we sing songs about being depraved, broken wretches, you know. There was something in me that thought something needed to be fixed. And I believe, like the wholeness journey is more of embracing all of my parts and meeting them with self-compassion and realizing did broken, effed up things happen. Yeah, but I'm not broken. I've never been broken. Right. And it's a reframe because I think a lot of times in the healing spaces, there's something that's broken that needs to be fixed, you know, and it's a very innocent, um, idea, but I don't know that it ultimately serves us very well. Um, and it's still like very shaming. Something in me is wrong and bad and I need to fix it. And so I chased that for a really long time and it's still in me. That part's still in me. I'm in two trainings right now. Like I just, but I also love learning. I'm obsessed with learning. But yeah, just recognizing like, what if nothing's wrong with me? I get to just meet whatever's coming up with so much compassion, so much care. And the more I do that, I'm able to move into more aligned action, right? Because when I'm judging it, shaming it, something's bad. I need to fix this. I get pretty stuck. I get really overwhelmed. I can freeze really easily. That is in me, you know? But the compassion piece, there was a study and I always forget exactly who it was. My cute brain. But there was this study that I learned in one of my, one of my trainings where they took, um, thousands of people and it was over like a year long time. And they had them do all these different healing modalities, kind of name it. I mean, I remember there was at least twenty things on the list that are like kind of the most popular name it, right? eMDR, brainspotting, cold therapy, meditation, so many things. Guess which one moved the needle more than anything else? I want to say ifs because my wife's, which is amazing. Self-Compassion. Oh, interesting. More than anything else, people that were taught tools to bring more self-compassion into their lives, had the greatest shifts in their life from that one year span. And that clicked for me because I have beat the shit out of myself in this life. I mean, it's probably the four planets in Virgo, which I don't even know what that means. I just know that we can be really hard on ourselves. And I like, I joke, but it's not funny. Like in a past life, I must have been like one of the Catholics. Like walking around, like beating the shit out of myself because that's how I know how to do this job. I'm I nailed it, I nailed that part of me, you know, and I'm like, yeah, that doesn't fit anymore. I don't need to. That's not how I'm gonna heal. So, so here's where I always get stuck. And it's a bit confusing. Is that so? Let's say that everybody is not broken. Everyone is perfect, right? And like you said, the person under the bridge in that worst moment is as loved. Yes. Then why would someone need to improve or work on themselves? Like, why shouldn't I just stay in bed? I'm loved it either way. So why put in the effort? Yeah. I love that question because, like, is that your highest good? Like, are you living into your you know, I mean, for me, I want to live to I want to be living to my fullest potential and my greatest expansion. I want to show up to this life. I think one of my dharma's in this life is to fully fall in love with being human. As weird as this sounds like, as early as I can remember, I felt homesick on this planet. I'm like, this cannot be my home. This is crazy how we're treating animals, how we're treating each other, how we're treating the planet. Like it's all felt insane to me as early as I can remember. And for me, like one of my goals, which this doesn't sound like it's of service to the collective, but I'm like, what would it look like to, to practice falling in love with my life, to showing up and making everything magical? What if everything gets to be magical? And there's an Albert Einstein quote. It's like something to the extent of there's two types of people in this world, ones where nothing is a miracle and ones where everything is a miracle. And I'm like, I want to play with magic. Yeah. Could I go live in my bed for the rest of my life? And God would still be so in love with me and obsessed with me. Like, yeah. And I don't feel fulfilled in that. That doesn't feel good inside of my body. Like I want to learn how to be more love, more love. I want to practice being more love, more love, more love on this planet. And there's just, I think it's more of like the energy and the intention behind it is me doing more, you know, trauma informed trainings. Like, no, it's like, am I doing this? Can I be with myself in the sense of like, this feels so holy because I get to learn it for myself and I get to mirror that to my clients over the energy of my body's broken. Something's wrong. I have to learn this because I'm not okay, right? Or they're not okay and I need to fix something in them. And it's just a different energy behind it. Like it doesn't keep me from not wanting to live into my fullness. Yes. It's just I move into more aligned action because there's more. One of the trainings I did, she talks about awareness, um, awareness. And then the second one is another a word, but it's the equivalent of self-compassion. And then the third step is aligned action. And you can't move something if you're not aware that it's there. But oftentimes, like in the Buddhist teaching, they call it the second arrow, we become aware of something and then we second arrow ourselves because we're like, I'm doing that shit again. Now I'm conscious of it and I'm fucking it all up and I'm, you know, it's like I did that in talk therapy for a really long time. I became really aware of my patterns of these things. I'm really aware of how it wasn't serving, almost like you're hyper aware. Totally. And then I'm judging myself for doing it. Yeah. Right. And so the more compassion I bring myself, the more kindness I bring myself, the more I'm able to then move into that aligned action that scares the shit out of me, that moves me into the unknown because my little girl self wants to hide away and be. I've been scared since the day I was born. Like I have. Terror is sitting with me right here, right? But like a past version of me was like, well, then I need to stay in this bed. If everything feels really scary and I want to be comfortable, and I'm an introvert and I'm highly sensitive and really overidentified with a lot of these parts of myself, and everything feels like really painful and everything's so fucked up out there. And so this little world feels really safe and comfortable. But that's not my highest truth. Like, yes, that's in me one hundred percent. That is in me, right? And I don't have to shame that part of me because wow, has it served me right. Wow. Has it served me Innocently, right? Yeah. And I want to live. I want to experience it all. I want to live to the fullest. I want to meet people that are so fucking weird. I want to do things that scare the shit out of me, which I do all the time, you know? I want to like, I have done the weirdest. I mean, my friends on my birthday every year, they're like, what did you get into this year? Who did you meet? Like I, you know, I wanted to learn. I was so much oppression around sexuality that I was like, I want to go do sacred sexuality trainings. And I would joke it was not. I would joke and be like, I'm going to sex camp. I want to learn all the things. Like, who does that? I'm like, okay, I'm. So I watched a show and I saw this was in like twenty fifteen and saw Chelsea Handler do ayahuasca and never heard that word in my life. No one in my life did plant medicine at that time. And I was like, looked at Jed and I was on his couch. I go, I'm going to do that. And he looked at me. He goes, are you effing crazy? And I was like, I don't know. But I know that I'm going to do that. And so I knew nothing about it. And I dove in like, scared the shit out of me. How was it? Horrible and awesome. It was awful. Wait. Awesome or awful? Both. Both. Horrible. Like it was so painful. But scary as fuck. Scary as shit. Traumatizing as shit. And it was a part of it. Interesting. I have no desire to ever do it again. Nothing in me cares to do that again. And it was a part of it. I dabbled in a lot of plant medicine because I just wanted to understand. I don't need to do that anymore. It's it was a part of my journey. But there's something in me that's like, I want to experience all the things I wanted to experience being in debilitating pain. I wanted to experience being so ungrounded. I'm floating in the ethers. I wanted to experience debilitating, um, divorce where he left with my good friend. I guess there's so many things that I guess my soul wanted to experience to give me a new level of compassion. Kindness, generosity for other people. Like there is something in me that wants to just experience it all. I really believe that. And now I'm like, what if it gets to be really fun and really playful and so much pleasure and even the mundane things like today I was snuggling with my cat and she's like purring on my shoulder or and I'm like, I am the richest person ever in this precious home where I feed more animals than you could ever imagine. And I'm like meeting with clients that I'm so in love with. And is it really human? Do I still live with a lot of pain? Yeah, I do, and it's exhausting. And it's been thirty years, you know, like it's hard and my life is so rich and so full and so beautiful and I'm just here for it. But it's like you came out the other side, so to speak. It's like, I find it's impossible to see it through that lens when you're in the storm. Yeah, right. And you can't say to somebody in the storm, like, like you said, like yourself, like, oh, like the time is, you know, like this is going to be great for you. You can't say that in the moment because when you're in the storm, you don't see beyond those, like it's incredible. So do you think it's like the self conscious saying like, all right, we need to save you because you're not going to be able to walk away. So like, we're going to almost like sabotage this for you. Like, is there some subconscious? I think it's doing that or loving it was all loving. This is all in her highest good. We get to grieve. We get to feel pain. We get to feel loss, um, all of it. But it's for the highest good and it's ultimately going to serve her in such a profound way. But right now we're going to go. It sucks. It's awful. It's terrible. It's so painful. It's so traumatic. Um, but it's gonna ultimately serve the highest good, you know, and there's so much trust built between us that we can do that. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's all a part of it. And this is not a Pollyanna ish. Like I am never being like, oh, amazing. Like I have been in it, you know? Um, but it's holy. Yeah. It's holy. Um, maybe maybe I know you got a ghost. Maybe if I ask you like one more question. Yeah. Of course. Um, when you think about relationships, right, like you obviously went through one that was, um, you were young, you didn't, you were inexperienced. When you look at what a healthy relationship is versus unhealthy relationship, or when you look back at your own failed marriage, like, do you look on it, look back at it and say, you know, I learned some stuff. I had to go through it in order to get to where I am now. Like, what do you feel about when you think about it? Yeah, well, weirdly enough, and this is where I'm like, I'm so down to be wrong about everything. And again, don't care if it helps me love myself and others more. I was in this really deep meditation. This is in Covid. I don't know when, but and I saw my soul, my ex-husband's soul, my good friend soul, who he ended up with for a while, um, all before we came back to earth. And I mean, we had no bodies, but it was just, it was just like our essence. It was our souls. And we all were looking at each other with so much love, essentially not looking, but being with each other and essentially saying, I'm going to play this role for you. Wow. I'm going to play this role for you because I love you so much. And I just remember coming. I was bawling, crying, bawling, crying. And I ended up inviting her over to do a tea ceremony with me. And I was like, I just want you to be free. You played this incredibly perfect role in my awakening. Like I this had to happen. He had to leave me for me to be this version. I don't know that I would have gotten out of that bed, I don't know. I know I wouldn't be doing this work. It invited me into deep work, that traumatic experience. And I want you to be free because I feel so free. And my partner and I, we pray for my ex-husband every night and just thank him for the role he played in my life and want the best for him. And, you know, he still sees me in a certain light. I mean, he hadn't known me since twenty twelve. And like, I'll play that role for him. He can, you know, if I need to be the villain in his story, that's perfect. I can play that role. But my soul feels very different. And he might not remember in this life and I might be wrong about it all. I don't give two shits if I'm wrong. It. The love that I have for those two souls is overwhelming. When I think of them, I just say thank you. I say thank you. When I see her, I give her the biggest hug. When I see him, I give him the biggest hug. I'm like, I would not be with this precious man that I am with today, who I didn't know I could be loved this way. I didn't know it was possible to be loved this way. You know we were sweet, young. We were babies when we got together, and so earnest and so wanted to be good. And we were clueless and unconscious on every level. Both of us. And we both play the role. I do not blame him for leaving me. I'm like, I see exactly how I helped. I was in a bed for seven years. Like, do you think I was meeting needs and showing up in attuning to him? I was on drugs in bed. No, I, I'm so grateful he saw someone outside of this and thought he had a window out. Thank you. Sweet man. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I've told him that. And it was really brave for him too, because the unconscious part of me back then, um, you know, I never talked bad about him. I made a point to never do that. And I was very aware, especially in the Christian communities, that the one who leaves is kind of looked at a certain way. And I was looked at as like poor whatever. I got so much care. I got so much, you know, people felt so bad for me, and I'm sure unconsciously I ate that shit up, ate it up. And I am no victim here. I'm not. I am not a victim. I played our role in getting us to that point one hundred percent. I so see my play in getting us there and I see his too. And we were both so human and we both fucked up in a million ways. And I learned so much of what doesn't work. And I learned what does. And I have zero regrets about that relationship. Zero. I was doing the best I could. He was doing the best he could, and he did a lot for me in that time. And I will thank him until the day I have no breath left. Well, thank you for sharing all that. And this was this was great. Thank you. When is the next book coming out? Oh, God, I don't know. Did you have a lot of wisdom? I mean, this is like we didn't talk about anything. I'm like a very different person again. I think that book is so sweet. I'm so proud of it. And I'd write a very different book today. You know, I don't know, for me, it would have to be a download from the universe that this is what's supposed to. People ask me that a lot. Yeah. And if I get that calling or that nudge, I will follow it. Like I have learned to like, follow, you know, follow the nudges, follow the breadcrumbs. Have you? And right now, that doesn't feel like I mean, I write a newsletter every week and I write, you know, but I don't feel that calling right now. It would be in some ways if I'm being really honest. I'm like, I feel like some people would need to pass away first, which sounds horrible. But like for me to actually write a capital T truth, I don't know that it would serve and it would be really painful for a few people in my life, and I love them so much. And that's not what I'm here to do. But I'm also here to speak the truth. So like for me to actually share what an experience was, um, it would either have to be a different book or I probably would wait. I totally get that. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the part of it, you know, like my care for someone overrides me putting something out in the world. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you've, I mean, come a long way. Um, and thank you again. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for flying all the way here and being like honoring me with this time. I'm so appreciative. This was well worth it. And, um, I can't wait to read the next one when it does come out. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with Ruthie. Lindsey. If you enjoyed this episode, please visit our website, the Bigger Why with sam dot com. Thank you. So.