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The Disability And…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
INTRO
Welcome to the Disability And podcast. Bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate.
This month Mind the Gap’s Assistant Producer Paul Wilshaw chats with Professor of Theatre Matthew Reason and Mind the Gap Head of Learning & Support and Maternity Deputy for Academy Director Melissa Conyers about University education and how Mind the Gap and York St John’s University have come together to create an accredited course in theatre for people with learning disabilities and autism.
Paul Wilshaw
Hello and welcome to Disability and podcast. Today I am pleased to welcome Matthew Reason, who is the Professor of Theatre at York St Johns. And Melissa Conyers who is the Head of learning and Support at Mind the Gap theatre company. So welcome both of you.
Melissa Conyers
Hello.
Matthew Reason
Hi Paul.
Paul Wilshaw
So, we are here to talk about the education system, but also about Mind the Gap and York St Johns and how we have collaborated together. So I just want to know, how did you get working at York St Johns Matthew? You’re the professor of theatre so I’m really interested about that.
Matthew Reason
Hi Paul. I've been at York St John for 15 years I think it is now, maybe 16. It’s a kind of small university in York that does a lot of work that engages in different forms of community practice, rather than maybe the stereotypical idea of a university kind of isolated or separate from its community. York St John really prides itself on doing work that is with people, with partners and so on. And that includes setting up placement opportunities for our students. So, our students in theatre have been doing placements with Mind the Gap for many, many years from before I was involved and Melissa and other colleagues here at Mind the Gap are York St John alumni. So I've been there for 15 years and have been working myself with Mind the Gap since 2018, so quite a long time now.
Paul Wilshaw
Oh brilliant. Okay. And Melissa, how do you start at Mind the Gap?
Melissa Conyers
So, my journey at Mind the Gap started about eight years ago and... well, I went to university at York St John and I studied theatre. I wanted to carry on working in the theatre world and I started volunteering. So I volunteered at Mind the Gap, for a good year, I would say, two days a week. And then I picked up some freelance work in a support role, and then I kind of just never looked back since then really. I’ve not left. I've just either had freelance support work, or done a temporary contract, and now I’m in this permanent role as Head of Learning and Support. And yeah, I have just not looked back.
Paul Wilshaw
Brilliant. So I'm really interested about how York St John's and Mind the Gap joined forces?
Matthew Reason
So I suppose, as I said, York St John students have been having placements with Mind the Gap for well over a decade. I guess this particular process of collaboration, particularly with my work and in 2018 around production that Mind the Gap were doing called ‘Mia’. A lot of work I do has been about audiences. How do people watch and experience theatre? And I thought it would be really interesting to look at a piece of disability arts, disability theatre, and how do audiences, both with and without a learning disabilities watch, experience, remember and value performance. So I approached Mind the Gap about that. And what was really striking immediately was how positive and engaged they were with that, that they were genuinely interested in research and in what research could offer them in understanding better what it was they did, what learning disability theatre was, how audiences responded. And that's extremely valuable. To work with an organisation that are curious, are, you know, lively and want to improve and develop what they do. So we've been working since then and it's evolved in all sorts of different ways, which I'm sure we're going to talk about in a minute.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, definitely. And just say if people don't know about ‘Mia’. So ‘Mia’ was a project that Mind the Gap got done in 2018 that was part of our ‘Daughters of Fortune’ project that was around learning disability and parenthood. So yeah, that's just for listeners that don't know about that project. So what has surprised both organisations with working together?
Melissa Conyers
I think... I don't know if it's a surprise, but I feel everything's just working really well and everything works really smoothly. And obviously the Performance Academy course and with the level four and accredited and in partnership with York St John, this is obviously its first three years and we're currently in our second year. And so I think we're still learning and there was a lot of learning in year one and I think it's just running really well and really smoothly. We I think... I wouldn't use the word surprised for me. It’s really positive the relationship between ourselves and York St John and more and more, I feel that at the university the tutors are always getting different opportunities for our students to go over to the university to watch work or to, you know, work alongside some of the students. So, as Matthew's already mentioned, with the placements, we do have York St John placements come over to us, but it's also been really nice for us to go over there to see the work that York St John students do.
Matthew Reason
Yeah I think it might be worth a bit more context around that. So after I had done the project around ‘Mia’, I guess we just stayed in touch and that actually isn't always the case. Quite often academics and research have a bit of a reputation for going and engaging with an organisation or engagement company, finishing a piece of research and then leaving again and buggering off and they write a paper which is published in an academic journal and kind of doesn't engage. And that's sometimes called extractavist research, where people extract something from a community, knowledge and then leave. And that didn't happen. And it didn't happen, I guess, because it felt like a positive relationship that had lots of other places to go, and two things came out from that initial project. One was, Mind the Gap had a project called Staging Change and Engage, which looked at career opportunities and access for learning disabled artists. And they wanted an evaluation of that. And we worked with them to both deliver an evaluation and have a PHD researcher embedded within Gap for a three year period. And also we began conversations about what Melissa's referred to, which is the accreditation of the Mind the Gap Academy. So the academy has been running for how long in total?
Melissa Conyers
Oh, well, it started very, very small. And now it's grown and grown over the years. Somewhere around, I want to say 15 years plus the academy and the courses have been running for.
Matthew Reason
So, yeah, I mean...and it's an amazing, you know, professional kind of course in theatre music and dance for, you know, people with learning abilities, you know fairly unique.
But what Mind the Gap were interested in and what they started having conversations with me about was whether that could get university accreditation, university validation which is really important because what it does is it provides, you know, that kind of official kind of certification of quality. And that's important because it's working with students who often have been excluded from or haven't been able to access what we might put in inverted commas, mainstream education. And therefore what they're receiving was perceived as lesser or just different. So in what way could we use the kind of kudos if you like, or status of the university, to say actually what Mind the Gap are delivering is as good quality as what happens in a university. And that wasn't a quick process. That was several years of discussions about how to do that. But the end result was we have now accredited or validated is the proper term, the course they do here as a certificate in higher education, and that's equivalent to a first year university course. And that came in... so two years ago that was completed and the first students enrolled. And we you know, we say it’s the first in the country, possibly even the first in the world. But the really important thing is to have done it together.
Paul Wilshaw
That's really important. And yeah, I mean, they are lucky because I would be a student here. Yeah.
Matthew Reason
And also as Melissa referred it's a two way exchange so I'd say the York John students are lucky with the opportunities that they have to work with, with Mind the Gap students. And the placements and exchanges go both ways with both staff and students. So we've had members of tutors in theatre at Mind the Gap having conversation with the university lecturers in theatre and doing, you know, they watch each other's teaching and they learn from each other. We've had the students from Mind the Gap come over to York and work in a workshop with our students. And what's brilliant about that is they just work together on making theatre or making dance or making music together. And, you know, it's just a fantastic, rich environment where there's huge amounts of learning in both directions.
Melissa Conyers
Yeah, gaining knowledge in both areas for our students and York St John's students. And I think that was, I think in year one when we came for a visit and we would join in music and theatre workshops with the York St John students and it just felt great and you know like you already said, it's just so positive, like the exchange between both of us now.
Paul Wilshaw
And I've definitely seen that. When I've been seeing the York St John students over in the building and I can remember when they've come over when I was a student here. And so it does mean it has been a quite a long time. But so yeah. It's great to hear like how both organisations are gaining from that. I really want to talk about the creation of the Doodlebook, which has had a massive impact and has actually gone to Europe and Australia. It's gone worldwide. So can we talk about that and how that idea came about with York St John's and what the Doodlebook actually is and what's the next stage for the project as a whole?
Matthew Reason
It’s a project that's had several stages, which again is I think about the ongoing relationship with Mind the Gap, you know that it's not just a project that finishes and then we move on. It kind of evolves. So the origin of it was a question which Mind the Gap had about supporting the artists reflect upon their work and engage in critique about their work. So rather than just everything being good, what are the ways in which we can have conversations about arts practice, which are nuanced and reflective and critical in a way that makes the practice better. So I worked with them to explore and experiment with different ways. There's a very well known technique by Liz Luhrmann on critical reflection.
So we did that with the artists. From that, we kind of felt that wasn't quite what we wanted. So we developed a Doodlebook. We did that with the artists from Mind the Gap. We run workshops with them about what almost the journey was in making a piece of theatre from initial ideas, you know, what is it about? Where do I begin? Through to doing things through to then reflecting upon what you did? And we were inspired by a couple of resources. There's a journal called Reckless Journal by Kerry Smith and a resource called The Artist Way by Gene Cameron that have tasks in. And those tasks are what's called open. So you can do the same task lots of times and get a different result from it. So we wanted to create a thing a bit like that, that was really accessible. That could be done by a Mind the Gap student or York St John's student and would be just as useful for any of them. So we developed this, I guess it was...we date things by COVID now don't we, so just before covid. And we worked with two of Mind the Gap partners in L’Osieau Mouche who are in France and Moom Stretton and we even had versions of this in Swedish and French for residency at Mind the Gap.
Paul Wilshaw
I never knew that, that’s really interesting.
Matthew Reason
So we used it in that context. And then COVID happened and Mind the Gap along with everybody else in country had to close the building. All the artists had to go and work from home. And so for the performing arts, which are used to working in a studio in person together, that was a major disruption. And they just happened to have this resource, the Doodlebook with them, and they could send the artists home with that and they found it worked really well on Zoom to have this resource that you had in your hand at the same time as you were in a group with other people and you know, you all have the same thing and it was physical as well as virtual. So we quite opportunistically applied for some funding from what's called UKRI. That’s UK research and innovation. And they had a funding call out specifically around COVID and we put in for funding and we got that. And essentially that allowed us to deliver the Doodlebook session nationally, we worked with 30, 35 different organisations, predominantly learning disabilities, but also a dementia care, SEN schools, different contexts where there were groups that would typically meet in person who are now meeting online and how could having this resource and that combination of a physical thing, an online workshop, create an inclusive space in virtual spaces.
We worked with Vicky Ackroyd and totally inclusive people, and, you know, it was really successful, you know, almost joyful experience during lockdown, during all those kind of traumas of isolation, to have this shared project to work on.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I took part in it myself and it really had come up with some good ideas for projects I want to work on.
Matthew Reason
Can you remember anything in particular that you kind of...
Paul Wilshaw
I loved, what was it? There were tasks that were like... three things to make a project start at the beginning, and it really just got me thinking about how to start a project and things like that. So and yeah, when we worked with Vicky it was just creative and just being part of that team during COVID, it just meant more. It felt like it meant more in a sense because it was all pulling one thing together. So the Doodlebook really helped, especially mental health actually. I would say my mental health actually improved because of the Doodlebook.
Matthew Reason
It's pretty great to hear, we have comments like that from other participants around that around the country. In those times it felt like something creative and positive and that rather than the online spaces being a lesser than, in what way could they be truly inclusive and accessible in the way that actually when we get to the end of COVID, we realised, yeah, we all want to work in person again but actually in the context of disability, there is something that online spaces can do that other real world spaces can't do. So that that was the focus of that as a piece of research as well as working with Mind the Gap to deliver something that was really needed during the lockdowns.
Paul Wilshaw
Definitely. So what's next for that?
Matthew Reason
So it's actually just today, we're upstairs at Mind the Gap and just before we've been downstairs in one of the studios on the first or second meeting of a project called I’m Me.
This is a continuation of the Doodlebook, possibly even Doodlebook three I guess. One of the feedbacks we had from that project during COVID was that it was a really interesting way of exploring difficult questions in an open, accessible, creative way. That project wasn't about that, but there was something about the Doodlebook that would enable that. And we'd also worked with, as I said, a whole network of arts organisations. So we felt like we had people who were really kind of keen and interesting to continue the project. So we've just received, together York St John and Mind the Gap, applied for funding from the Arts and Humanities Research Council, which we received for two year project. So it's a much bigger project to explore the potential of using that structure of open tasks, to explore in a creative way questions about identity, questions about representation and questions about voice with learning disabled artists. So we're literally starting that this month, and it’ll be carrying on for the next two years.
Paul Wilshaw
So 2025 is when, which is so much is happening in 2025 at the moment, so... ok so that’s great. And I'm really excited about what you find out and how that's going to go on the future. And I'm hoping you will come back and give us more information about that in future.
Matthew Reason
Absolutely.
Paul Wilshaw
So if you are advising other organisation's about collaborating, what advice would you give?
Matthew Reason
I think that's a really good question from both directions, from a university and an organisation. Melissa, ee were looking at each other to decide who was going to go first.
Melissa Conyers
Yeah. And that is a really great question, is that Paul and I was thinking about this question and one of the first things that came to my head was being open with each other when you’re working on whatever it is that you're working on. And it's something that you've already said Matthew, in terms of when if you've come in to work with the company and sometimes you might not stay in touch with people and I think there is something said from that. So getting to know a company, coming in and seeing how each other work and so on and just building that relationship. And then as time goes by, that relationship will then build and be stronger and stronger. And then that's kind of... if that's advice what I just give.
Paul Wilshaw
That’s great advice to be open.
Melissa Conyers
To be open and to just really work on building that relationship, because I feel that's what's happened here, because it can turn into something really great and exciting and now obviously our Performance Academy course is, you know, validated by York St John, which is just brilliant for our students and for, you know, the next cohort of students who we will be recruiting for in this next year or so.
Paul Wilshaw
Great, and Matthew?
Matthew Reason
I completely agree with all of that. I think viewing relationships as an outcome in its own right you know that... so doing things without maybe a sense of there being always something definite or particular that has to come out of it, that you know, there's a phrase that, you know, hanging out together, spending time, building a relationship being a positive, concrete outcome in its own right. And in both from both perspectives, that can be a challenge because we're all time poor. So sometimes it can feel like, you know, you've got to have an outcome, you've got to have a particular thing that can come out of this. So spending time to invest in that, being genuinely curious and open about what it is, and also being genuinely willing to change what you do and how you do it. And again, that goes in both directions. So I have worked occasionally with partners in the arts sector who didn't really want to change. They quite liked the idea of engaging in research but they thought what they did was fine, they didn’t you know... And I'm not saying it's about changing radically and I'm not saying that what you do isn't fine, but we all know we can learn and we can develop. And the same for a researcher. Knowing that the idea you come in with might not work, that you've got to make it work in the real world context and setting and it's got to be valuable to your partner as well as yourself. So anything that’s one way or anything that’s extractivist just is going to fail in the end. But yeah, I think it's relationship building and spending time and developing a sense of trust that in the end will really pay dividends.
Paul Wilshaw
Okay. And talking about that what have both organisations enjoyed about working together. You've talked so much you probably have answered this question but if there's anything else that you want to add on to that?
Melissa Conyers
I think one of the main things from, because I spend time with the students you know every day, I would say from their perspectives is that the different opportunities that they've been given to come across to the university and, you know, these next few weeks, the opportunities that they've been given, which obviously we’ll go onto. But yeah, I can see from their perspective and you know, and just knowing that at the end of the three years that they will be accredited at a level four certificate in higher education, I would say for me it's the enjoyment of seeing them progress in the course and enjoying all the modules that have been set out and the opportunities that’ve been given.
Matthew Reason
Yeah. I mean I was just downstairs and one of the Mind the Gap students recognised me from when she visited York St John and was all excited because they're coming over in a couple of weeks to visit a dance trail that our students are running. So we've got a second year module on site specific dance that connects with a module that you have, which is dance choreography. And you know, there's a chance for them to work together on that. You know, she was, you know, excited about that. And our students will have a curious, interested, provocative audience for Mind the Gap students. There's a really nice exchange there. And there's opportunities which feed throughout. The other thing I guess I enjoy working at Mind the Gap is, you know, it's always a fantastic place to visit, always made really welcome and you know that that feels small, but it's actually really significant. So feeling that it's a place where research is genuinely interested in and can have genuine impact is really important.
Paul Wilshaw
That's great. And final question is what exciting projects are coming up?
Melissa Conyers
Yes, so as Matthew's mentioned in a couple of weeks, our students are going over to York on Tuesday the 23rd of May to be part of the dance trail in York, and that starts at the university and then happens throughout York. And then another really exciting thing in June, our students are performing their final end of year showcase at York St John University in the Creative Centre, and that's on the 15th of June and tickets for that will be going on
sale soon.
Paul Wilshaw
So yeah, unfortunately this will not be out, but that's obviously fine because they will have already done it and it would have been brilliant and we all know that. That’s absolutely fine and then the next year we will want the audiences to be at the next event. So we will want it bigger and better. So it’s absolutely fine, so don’t worry.
Melissa Conyers
I thought I was on the radio then.
Paul Wilshaw
That’s absolutely fine. So I want to say a really big thank you to Matthew and you Melissa for being here. The next podcast will be next month with Disability Arts online and in two months time there will be another podcast by me. So thank you very much, take care and thank you for listening.
Matthew Reason
Thank you Paul.
Melissa Conyers
Sorry Paul.
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