How Can Ideas Lead To Movements? with Dr. Deva Woodly

PJ's guest is professor and activist Dr. Deva Woodly. Together, they discuss how ideas can lead to movements.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: hello, and welcome to chasing leviathan. I'm here with Doctor Deva Woodley, and

[pj_wehry]: uh where? today we're going to talk about

[pj_wehry]: how does public meaning shape politics and what does active citizenship look like

[pj_wehry]: Doctor Woodley, Glad to have you on.

[deva_woodly]: wonderful to be here. Thank you.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, Doctor Woodley is a professor at the New School for Social Research, and she's

[pj_wehry]: interested in how democratic politics actually happens in the contemporary

[pj_wehry]: context, And part of the reason I want to have you on is Uh. this line when you

[pj_wehry]: say um,

[pj_wehry]: that you approach us in a non traditional way and I think there's a lot of value

[pj_wehry]: in that Um. That, whereas most political science focuses inquiry on institutions,

[pj_wehry]: choice and decision making, by contrast, you focus your attention on the ways that

[pj_wehry]: public meanings define the problems that the polity that the citizens understand

[pj_wehry]: itself themselves to share, as well the range of choices that we perceived to be

[pj_wehry]: before us. And I think sometimes we get stuck in very binary modes of politics

[pj_wehry]: that help that hide, very um,

[pj_wehry]: important and uh, simpler ways to solve problems. And so uh, really excited to

[pj_wehry]: have you on here. and you know again, thank you, I. If you'd like talk a little

[pj_wehry]: bit about Uh yourself how you got interested in this topic. Um would love to hear

[pj_wehry]: it.

[deva_woodly]: sure. well, gosh, how did I get interested in

[deva_woodly]: the topic of Um, civic participation and meaning making? I think it came out of

[deva_woodly]: my activism when I was in college.

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[deva_woodly]: Actually, one of the things that I really noticed when I was in college was

[deva_woodly]: that you know, during that time was early two thousand, and during that time

[deva_woodly]: we were doing a lot ofanz around livingage. We were doing a lot of organizing

[deva_woodly]: around marriage equality and affirmative action. Um, and eventually around war.

[deva_woodly]: read

[pj_wehry]: hm. yeah,

[deva_woodly]: around, Um, anti war stuff, and Um. One of the things that I noticed in doing

[deva_woodly]: my activism was that Um and I also at the same time became the editor of a kind

[deva_woodly]: of Um.

[deva_woodly]: Um. You know, a student

[pj_wehry]: okay,

[deva_woodly]: magazine Um, that was covering these kind of topics And one of the things that

[deva_woodly]: I notice with that people, Um, would develop their understandings about the

[deva_woodly]: problems that were facing us, Um, that are facing us, and Um, they would sort

[deva_woodly]: of learn what they felt that their positions were, and they would learn the

[deva_woodly]: sources that they

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: trusted Um. And then, um, they would you know, take action

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: right and be sort of in community around these these topics which I think is

[deva_woodly]: really good, but at the same time there was a less of a value placed on being

[deva_woodly]: understood by a wider population, And I thought that there was a disconnect

[deva_woodly]: there. Um, and I thought well, it's not only about developing an understanding

[deva_woodly]: of the problems that we face, which is very important, and it's also not only

[deva_woodly]: about taking action which is crucial, but it is also about how is it that we

[deva_woodly]: create a broader understanding about these issues that Um, you know, impact all

[deva_woodly]: of our lives, And indeed, how do we communicate how these issues impact all of

[deva_woodly]: our lives and how it, Um, you know, sort of

[deva_woodly]: Um, influences or shapes who we think we are in the world who we think the we

[deva_woodly]: is right. Um,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: and Um,

[deva_woodly]: you know what kinds of lives Uh, we think are possible, and what kinds of

[deva_woodly]: communities we

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: want to be. Um, And all those things are based on Um. You know public meaning

[deva_woodly]: what people understand to be the problems we face who they think, ▁ought, to be

[deva_woodly]: held accountable for those problems, what they think. Um, they need to do in

[deva_woodly]: the face of those problems, and what possibilities right they think are before

[deva_woodly]: them. And that is Um. That question of possibility is one that I'm really

[deva_woodly]: interested in and focused on Um. because I really, um, believe that what we get

[deva_woodly]: done is um, importantly, circumscribed or limited by what we think we

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: can get done, And one of the things that

[deva_woodly]: Um, frustrates me a lot in political conversations, both inside the academy and

[deva_woodly]: in you know, the world at large is when people kind of throw up their hands and

[deva_woodly]: say it is what it is. Um, Because you know I think that that is, Um.

[deva_woodly]: You know that is a self

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: limitation, right, Um, that we don't have to uh, accept right instead, I think

[deva_woodly]: the right question is um. what do we want right? What do we want and how do we

[deva_woodly]: get from here to there, Um, And that set of questions, right is one that

[deva_woodly]: requires imagination. Um, that is tempered by practicality, right and

[deva_woodly]: pragmatism, but one that absolutely posits right that we can achieve a world in

[deva_woodly]: which more people are living and thriving and able to relate to each other, Um,

[deva_woodly]: and able to make their lives possible. Right, materially

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: possible, Um, And if that is our goal in thequ then we can't sort of throw our

[deva_woodly]: hands up and say Ah, it is what it is right, or this is human nature. Another

[deva_woodly]: one that's a huge pet peeve of mine. Um, but instead, Um, we have to talk

[deva_woodly]: about. Okay, So if we want this world in which everyone has access to health

[deva_woodly]: care in which everyone is able to, Um, you know, have a voice in shaping how

[deva_woodly]: their community runs and functions, Um, in which you know children are well

[deva_woodly]: cared for and parents are supported. Um, and Um. those who are not in nuclear

[deva_woodly]: families are able to live in communities of their own design, and Ch, ing if we

[deva_woodly]: want to live in a world in which Um, our economic Uh. Engines do not rely on

[deva_woodly]: the devastation of the environment if we want to live in a world that is not

[deva_woodly]: fundamentally characterized by, you know, Um. wide supremacy and racial

[deva_woodly]: discrimination. If we want those things, then the question is how do we get

[deva_woodly]: from here to

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: there and it's a long process,

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: right. It's not something that takes place overnight, but it absolutely starts

[deva_woodly]: with Um. you know Ha, having discussions about shared

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: meaning about what goals we may have in common, Um, and really understanding

[deva_woodly]: where we diverge right, Um,

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[deva_woodly]: but also not um,

[deva_woodly]: assuming um. That those cleavages are always insurmountable Um, or assuming

[deva_woodly]: that we're doing the the best that humanity can do at this moment, which I

[deva_woodly]: think is manifestly untrue.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, uh,

[pj_wehry]: so much there that I love Um immediately as you' talking.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, that's what I feel like I want to try and accomplish with my Uh podcast To

[pj_wehry]: fasten one part where you're talking about educating on deeper levels so that we

[pj_wehry]: can talk about what the good life is and find

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: alternative solutions and shared action with people who come from what we would

[pj_wehry]: normally think of is very different sides of one issue. But we can agree on some

[pj_wehry]: completely unrelated issue that actually solves a lot of the problems.

[pj_wehry]: And so

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: that really starts to us talking about what is what is the good life and that,

[pj_wehry]: Like you're talking

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: about that possibility of what kinds of lives we think are possible. That's a

[pj_wehry]: crucial question. you. You have something to say though, Go ahead,

[deva_woodly]: Well, I think also in developing those deeper understandings through this kind

[deva_woodly]: of um, you know conversation is that we find Um that actually, things that we

[deva_woodly]: think are unrelated are often

[pj_wehry]: no, yeah, no, that's what. y right, right.

[deva_woodly]: not unrelated, right, Um, And that's part of was so uh, amazing about engaging

[deva_woodly]: in this kind of Um, conversation and political work. But I will say that it's

[deva_woodly]: not just you know. It's not like people's preferences and personal feelings

[deva_woodly]: that prevents these kinds of conversations

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: from happening. Um, you know, I, um, you know, think that you know Part of the

[deva_woodly]: reason that we don't have civic discussions, and I'm saying civic and not civil

[deva_woodly]: on

[pj_wehry]: okay,

[deva_woodly]: purpose, right, Um, Part of the reason that we're we're not having civic

[deva_woodly]: discussions is because our political economy, right, our, our, our ways of

[deva_woodly]: supporting ourselves. Our economic life is organized such that it takes up

[deva_woodly]: almost all of our time, right, So we don't have as much time and we don't have

[deva_woodly]: as many spaces where we can just simply get together with people. Work with

[deva_woodly]: other people on shared sort of common local goals, right, Um, you know many of

[deva_woodly]: us don't have time for that because we're working all the time and we have to

[deva_woodly]: work all the time in order to be barely able to support

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: ourselves Right, so I think that political economy that has developed right of

[deva_woodly]: the always booked and busy right, Um, has really

[deva_woodly]: uh, prevented, or uh, limited a lot of our chances, Um for learning how to work

[deva_woodly]: together in a civic capacity, and that civic capacity is fundamental to

[deva_woodly]: democratic life, and as it. Starts to fall apart. Of course, democratic

[deva_woodly]: politics. that is small. De, democratic politics also begins to fall apart

[deva_woodly]: because we don't have experience

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: working with one another.

[pj_wehry]: yes, yes, and it, um,

[pj_wehry]: ooh. that's tough. There's so many way different places I want to go with that,

[pj_wehry]: but I so. Uh, just to kind of put it into the arena, even as we are talking about

[pj_wehry]: this, Uh, something

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: that I, uh and I don't. I don't want to romanticize it with words like subversion

[pj_wehry]: or rebellion. those kind of things. But

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: as I've looked at the values for our family and what's important,

[pj_wehry]: we are starting a garden.

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: And uh, part of that is to pull ourselves not completely, because uh, we don't

[pj_wehry]: have the capacity for that right now, but to pull ourselves out of a lot of the

[pj_wehry]: supply system

[pj_wehry]: of our our current system, right, uh, our current like capitalist system, And

[pj_wehry]: that's not necessarily Uh. even in uh, I, I don't. The more I've studied

[pj_wehry]: economics, the less I feel. I know. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: like it's very complicated. but I do know that. Uh, as of right now I, I don't get

[pj_wehry]: a lot of choice when I go to the the grocery store. Like you know, it's all made

[pj_wehry]: by about the same four companies. When you talk about meat, that kind of thing,

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: and so looking at, Uh, and this way Iu like, Uh, And so maybe this is what you're

[pj_wehry]: referring to, and I'm I. I just want to give a practical and particular example

[pj_wehry]: that

[pj_wehry]: by gardening,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, you give yourself direct access to the necessities of life and you're

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: able. And so if you, and that obviously, uh, I understand that that requires that

[pj_wehry]: you have land to garden on right, Which is the whole like that. not everyone can

[pj_wehry]: do that. Um, and so, just to kind of put that in as an example

[pj_wehry]: of uh,

[pj_wehry]: an alternative solution for like, Oh, I need to. I need to work sixty hours in

[pj_wehry]: order to make a living,

[pj_wehry]: and it's

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: like Well, if you have somewhere to live and you have food,

[pj_wehry]: then that actually you might not have to work as much.

[deva_woodly]: Mm, Yeah, I mean, I think that well that you know that may be true in certain

[deva_woodly]: places, depending on you know, Oftenims gardening, especially at the beginning

[deva_woodly]: is actually pretty expensive.

[pj_wehry]: right. No, no, exactly right. No, No,

[pj_wehry]: at the initial, the

[deva_woodly]: but

[pj_wehry]: initial, the initial, Uh investment. Yes,

[deva_woodly]: yeah, um, yeah, and I you. I love

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: gardening, so Im. I'm a huge gardener. I particularly love food gardening. I'm

[deva_woodly]: a food gardener more than a flower gardener.

[deva_woodly]: I love both, but um, but here's the thing that in my own

[pj_wehry]: sure,

[deva_woodly]: community in my own life, that gardening opened up for us and this is

[deva_woodly]: particularly um. during the first part of the Pn. immigrants. Well, this is

[deva_woodly]: spring twenty

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: twenty ring, Um. Which is when I really started gardening in earnest Before

[deva_woodly]: that I had a few things in pods. you know, Um, but um,

[deva_woodly]: but it opened up the capacity for mutual aid right, because if you, um, you

[deva_woodly]: know, if you plan a garden, Um, and your garden is producing, it's not only

[deva_woodly]: that it feeds you and your family, you'll find actually that if it goes well,

[deva_woodly]: it produces too much to

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: feed your family

[deva_woodly]: right. And so what we did as a community?

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: Um, during that time period and I didn't lead this right. I was just merely a

[deva_woodly]: participant, um. Um, you know, an another more experienced gardener in our

[deva_woodly]: community was like, Look, we have all this surplus. We can provide

[deva_woodly]: fresh

[deva_woodly]: organic food to our community

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: just by puoling our

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: resources. And so that's what we did right. So Um, so you know, And that is not

[deva_woodly]: only about providing for a particular

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: need and taking care of your community, but it's also importantly civically. It

[deva_woodly]: teaches people how to work together for a concrete goal that alleviates

[deva_woodly]: suffering, but also it teaches people to think about. Oh, like this is, these

[deva_woodly]: are the kinds of capacities that are created by people working together. And

[deva_woodly]: then it gives people a different kind of framework for what they might expect

[deva_woodly]: right from governing institutions and decision makers, right, Um, who are

[deva_woodly]: supposed to have right, Um, all this capacity to coordinate effort and you know

[deva_woodly]: activity. and it's really changed the character of how you know local

[deva_woodly]: government relates, Um to you know, folks, you know. he. who are? you know?

[deva_woodly]: citizens in the community. Now we, we have a small. you know, we're the

[deva_woodly]: smallest city in New York is

[pj_wehry]: okay,

[deva_woodly]: where I live, so, Um, we're a small city. Um. And so we have a a rel. You know,

[deva_woodly]: it's different on a small

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: scale, but at the same time this kind of engagement has empowered people to run

[deva_woodly]: for a local office, Right who have connections to these kinds of mutual aid

[deva_woodly]: activities that we were able to put together. Um. who gained experience in

[deva_woodly]: doing things like. once the Mutual Aid Um organization was set up to distribute

[deva_woodly]: food, they also were able to pull in local artists and create an outdoor Um

[deva_woodly]: child carere, Basically a program Um. That had like an arts enrichment

[deva_woodly]: component because it happens to be an arty town, so parents who were working

[deva_woodly]: from home or who were out of work were able to come in and provide that

[deva_woodly]: service. So the whole point is all these good things happened, but also it made

[deva_woodly]: everyone civically engaged in a different

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: way, and also in a way where you don't have to be heroic, Right, You're getting

[deva_woodly]: together with other people to do what you can where you can, and you're also

[deva_woodly]: learning the capacity of collective action so that if you reach a point where

[deva_woodly]: some decision maker who has way more capacity who collects taxes, so they have

[deva_woodly]: way

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: more money, right, um than you, and they say, Oh, we can't do that. Just don't

[deva_woodly]: know how it's going to be done. you can say, but we, we already did this

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: with like nothing, so you can figure it out right. and and furthermore we

[deva_woodly]: demand that you do. And if you don't then one of us moms or

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yes, yes,

[deva_woodly]: dads,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right, you know, or or other you know. Otherwise, sort of affiliated persons is

[deva_woodly]: going to run and take your job and we'll

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[deva_woodly]: do it so you know,

[pj_wehry]: and and even um, you mentioned all that that civic engagement. I think it's a a

[pj_wehry]: big thing that I mean. so obviously my context. your context is New York. Uh, my

[pj_wehry]: context

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: is central Florida. So

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: and I about this? So we're right on the border of Orange County and Lake County,

[pj_wehry]: and uh, Orange County tends to be more of a blue. Uh county, you know the Orlando,

[pj_wehry]: that area and then you have Lake County, which is um,

[pj_wehry]: very, uh, uh. it's starting to become more suburban because of Uh, Orlando, but it

[pj_wehry]: is, Uh, tends to be

[pj_wehry]: uh, more red. And the thing is everyone connects on both sides with something like

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, right,

[pj_wehry]: gardening. And what

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: it does is, it reduces tensions. It gets. People are different to work together on

[pj_wehry]: something they agree with like in central Florida. almost everyone will get behind

[pj_wehry]: something like gardening, and everyone sees the benefit and uh, yeah, I, uh. so I.

[pj_wehry]: I'm I was really. I'm really pleased that that connected with you. That's

[pj_wehry]: something that you've done because it's I. It's

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: a different way of approaching some of our problems and the uh. I. I'm a big fan.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, when you talk about possibility and creativity for solutions of having these

[pj_wehry]: solutions that have multiple branching, Uh, outcomes that

[deva_woodly]: that's right.

[pj_wehry]: are great, which is what like that? like the

[deva_woodly]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: outdoor day care, it's

[deva_woodly]: y,

[pj_wehry]: amazing. like when you pull resources outside of Uh, some kind of governmental

[pj_wehry]: structure, how you can create these these powerful communities And I think that's

[deva_woodly]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: uh,

[pj_wehry]: and uh, and remove kind of these binary oppositions because in a lot of ways we've

[pj_wehry]: we're just kind of stuck sometimes and stale made it at the political level. Um,

[deva_woodly]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: so I, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I don't. uh, good.

[deva_woodly]: I mean I. I do want to say that I. I think that our political differences are

[deva_woodly]: often real,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: so I'm not actually a person who is like. We need like end polarization and

[deva_woodly]: just find things we agree on. Um. You know, sometimes our political differences

[deva_woodly]: are rooted in fundamental values differences,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: right, um, you know, and that's important, Right and we need to understand

[deva_woodly]: that, but sometimes they're not right. Um and Um. and sometimes

[deva_woodly]: um,

[deva_woodly]: You know,

[deva_woodly]: over time and over the process of working together, there are some people right

[deva_woodly]: who will come to understand. You know in many different

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: directions, right that their. the. their political activity actually doesn't

[deva_woodly]: accord with the values that they think

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: that they have, right, Um, But that is something you know, Um, that I think.

[deva_woodly]: Has that come from Um experience and the experience of of working together? So

[deva_woodly]: for example, Um, I was teaching Um freshmen for the first time in a couple of

[deva_woodly]: years? you know, on the university Y, I worked at university, and Um. I had for

[deva_woodly]: the a whole class of freshmen for the first time in like three years last year.

[deva_woodly]: And Um. they're fantastic. I actually love freshmen. Um, but um, So we' talking

[deva_woodly]: about civic participation? This class was actually about

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: participation, Right and Um, we're talking about different kinds of

[deva_woodly]: institutional forms that facilitates participation. What kinds of participation

[deva_woodly]: you can have in these different institutional forms and Um, and one of the Um

[deva_woodly]: students brings up Um unions, and what unions are about, and one brave student,

[deva_woodly]: as was was in, And this is one of the reasons I love freshman, too, is that

[deva_woodly]: they're They're often able to just be like. I don't know what that

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: is like. I don't know

[deva_woodly]: you know, and one brave student was just like. I just don't know what they do

[deva_woodly]: like. I know that they exist and I know that some people that I like like them,

[deva_woodly]: but I don't know what they do. And so you know, in this course we were able to

[deva_woodly]: have time and space where I wasn't Um. You know, sort of lecturing to them

[pj_wehry]: yeah, right,

[deva_woodly]: about what unions are and what they do, Although I did of course provide um

[deva_woodly]: information to them, but that one of the students in the class was able to say,

[deva_woodly]: You know what. I've been working retail jobs since I was sixteen

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: or whatever, you know, and I, um, you know, my first retail job was at this

[deva_woodly]: or whatever, you know, and I, um, you know, my first retail job was at this

[deva_woodly]: company, where, Um. they wouldn't give us a regular schedule. Um. they could

[deva_woodly]: company, where, Um. they wouldn't give us a regular schedule. Um. they could

[deva_woodly]: change us stuff at any time. They could charge us for any items that were

[deva_woodly]: change us stuff at any time. They could charge us for any items that were

[deva_woodly]: stolen while we were working, Um. they. yeah, like um that they. Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: stolen while we were working, Um. they. yeah, like um that they. Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I mean, I'm not surprised I've heard these stories. Go ahead. sorry,

[deva_woodly]: that they could dock. Um, you know, Um, our pay, Um, almost arbitrarily, right

[deva_woodly]: wage stuff, which is a huge problem, Um, and you know, and there was nothing we

[deva_woodly]: can do about it, but there was nothing I could do about it. you know, Um, as

[deva_woodly]: just this lone person who was subject to these,

[deva_woodly]: Um to these rules and she said, And then I ▁quit that job. I couldn't take it

[deva_woodly]: anymore. Um, you know, and um. now I'm working at another retail job, Um. but

[deva_woodly]: this one is unionized and

[deva_woodly]: at the unionized job I work regular hours. I guaranteed the hours that I was

[deva_woodly]: promised when I was hired. They certainly can't charge me for theft. That

[deva_woodly]: happens just while I'm on shift Right and this person is telling this like

[deva_woodly]: story of this is the way it

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: works, in a way that enlightened the entire class. Um, and and um, but from

[deva_woodly]: experience right from lived experience. It wasn't like ideologically about, you

[deva_woodly]: know, Um. particular things that was very much like. Let me just tell you the

[deva_woodly]: practical importance of the different experiences I had in these different

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: situations and none of those students will forget that, right. Um, And so that

[pj_wehry]: yes, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: way of communicating, That's what I mean by having time and

[deva_woodly]: space. People who are lucky enough to Um. You know, go to schools that are well

[deva_woodly]: funded or go to university level schooling are able to have these spaces right

[pj_wehry]: right, yes,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: where they can just talk about these kinds

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: of things. But it's much harder in our regular

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: lives. That kind of thing is usually organized out of our Um. You know

[deva_woodly]: existence because we' trying to work those

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: jobs right.

[deva_woodly]: And and and that is something that's really really missing Because you know

[deva_woodly]: people who may think that they're aligned on one side or the other of an issue

[deva_woodly]: like unions,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Because you know an opinion leader that they listen to has an opinion about it.

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: Right would discover a different kind of relationship right to that idea if

[deva_woodly]: they were just able to talk to other people about it.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, uh, and I think that's a really important point and something Ive felt

[pj_wehry]: a a lot of Um. You know you see these uh expressions on social media about educate

[pj_wehry]: yourself and

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: Um and I tried to right, But there's there's so many issues and there' so many of

[pj_wehry]: them are important. And then you look at. Uh, if you have kids and you work a full

[pj_wehry]: time job and you run your household. The idea of at the end of the day you're

[pj_wehry]: going to pick up. Uh, I'm going to have a doctor Lewis Gordon on. uh, to talk

[pj_wehry]: about his book,

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm. Oh, yes.

[pj_wehry]: fear, uh, talk about fear of black consciousness and he, It's his

[deva_woodly]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: book has just came out and I'm reading the book and I love it. But if I've had a

[pj_wehry]: long day with the kids, it's not like it's not

[deva_woodly]: Sure,

[pj_wehry]: nine o'clock at night. After trying to work with my four year old all day that I'm

[pj_wehry]: like. You know I'm going to crack open this book on political philosophy like

[deva_woodly]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I mean it. It's difficult, right and you have to be very committed and even then

[pj_wehry]: there, sometimes you're just too tired And so I just really appreciate that. Um.

[pj_wehry]: Let Mej and I want to say this because I, I want to make sure I didn't. uh, Ij, I

[pj_wehry]: just wanted to clarify. I agree. A hundred percent are not eradicating difference.

[pj_wehry]: So when you talked about like you know, I, I, when I talked about working together

[pj_wehry]: to find solutions like it's just not stay like where we have stalemates like. I

[pj_wehry]: don't want to eradicate that because those are important differences. but there

[pj_wehry]: are places where we can work together and sometimes and this is, I think what you

[pj_wehry]: were mentioning

[deva_woodly]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: it can shed new light on what we think are stalemates right. Some stalemates

[deva_woodly]: yes, Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: are real and some are not, but it's but

[deva_woodly]: that's right.

[pj_wehry]: we also have a lot of stuff that we could fix and that we're just not

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: talking about. So I want to. I agree, I, and I feel like I could be wrong, but I

[pj_wehry]: feel like I agree a hundred percent with what you said about that. Um, so I want

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: to make sure I clarify that. Um,

[pj_wehry]: you said something, and

[pj_wehry]: I. I. It's amazing how people love Uh, to talk about pet peeves, So you mentioned

[pj_wehry]: you. You mentioned you don't like the term human nature. Talk to

[deva_woodly]: Yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: me. Why don't you like the term human nature?

[deva_woodly]: because I think it's another arbitrary limiting

[pj_wehry]: Okay?

[deva_woodly]: factor. right. you can say anything is human nature right. Um, you

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: know what I mean, you can say like it's human nature to love chocolate Right

[deva_woodly]: and it's just like. Actually, not everybody

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: loves chocolate like that's you know. And when you talk about more

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: complicated things that have to do with behaviors, I think you're really in a

[deva_woodly]: situation where you're just, um. There's no way first of all to to verify that

[deva_woodly]: right now as an empirically based person. I'm just like you can't tell me

[deva_woodly]: that's true

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right. like um, Um, but I also think that it it. It forms an ideological like

[deva_woodly]: it. it does ideological work.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Um, that's just not warranted. and it limits Um. what we think is possible,

[deva_woodly]: Right if we think human nature is such and such a thing, right, So this is

[deva_woodly]: another another example for my class.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Um, but um, so you know, if you think that it is Um

[deva_woodly]: that no matter what the situation is, people are going to Um,

[deva_woodly]: you know, be self interested and fight for fight for, Um, what they can get for

[deva_woodly]: themselves at the expense of anyone and everyone else right, Um, Now, of course

[deva_woodly]: we have a lot of anecdotes, We have our own impulses to say. Oh, that's human

[deva_woodly]: nature, but of course we have a lot of anecdotes and we have a lot of personal

[deva_woodly]: examples where that's not

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: the case right. And so there's some external factor that's mitigating that, but

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: beyond beyond that right, which I think of is just empirically true. Um.

[deva_woodly]: there's also what assumptions are at play when you say something is human

[deva_woodly]: nature. So in my class I asked them the question, Um, You know, we're talking

[deva_woodly]: about different ways to sort of um, organize economies, different ways to

[deva_woodly]: organize society. Um, and

[deva_woodly]: what do you think would happen? Um, you know if you're in a situation where

[deva_woodly]: Um,

[deva_woodly]: you know, everybody kind of needs the same things.

[deva_woodly]: Um. Um, Yeah, but they're not allocated in an equal way, right, Um, and one of

[deva_woodly]: the students who is like well, I would definitely get what I could for me and

[deva_woodly]: my family. you know, Um, you know, and I don't you know I that. maybe that's

[deva_woodly]: bad, but I don't feel bad about that and so then I asked them. Well, what is

[deva_woodly]: the underlying assumption right? Um, or what are the

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: underlying assumptions in something like that and another student in the class

[deva_woodly]: said that there's not enough

[deva_woodly]: right.

[deva_woodly]: And and that is

[deva_woodly]: that was a moment of like another, sort of like epiphany moment for the whole

[deva_woodly]: class. It's like that. Yes,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right, under conditions of scarcity, it makes total sense that you want to

[deva_woodly]: ensure your

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: life and the life of the people who are

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: closest to you Right,

[deva_woodly]: But that assumes right. If we build a whole political system on that it, we're

[deva_woodly]: making the assumption that there's not enough for ever and

[pj_wehry]: yeah, right,

[deva_woodly]: ever right, and that there's no way that we can ensure that there's enough

[deva_woodly]: right. Um, and if you work from that assumption right, of course, then

[deva_woodly]: behaviors will, um, you know, react to the circumstances as they are

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right. Um, and I'm not a utopian, so I don't mean that like everyone will be

[deva_woodly]: able to have everything, and everyone will be happy and well forever

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: and ever. I don't mean that. I mean that if you start from the assumption that

[deva_woodly]: you know we have enough technology, Gee, we have enough people we have. Um, you

[deva_woodly]: know, Um, enough of space, right in the world, right that we can. Um. you know,

[deva_woodly]: commit oursves to figuring out Um. how we can make everyone housed, How we can

[deva_woodly]: make sure everyone has access to food. How we can make sure that everyone has

[deva_woodly]: access to health care. Um, And that's just our baseline. We want to make sure

[pj_wehry]: yeah, Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: there's enough of all of that. This is not the eighteenth century where it's

[deva_woodly]: like literally, may

[deva_woodly]: impossible, right to do that we're in. We are in a space now right where it's

[deva_woodly]: impossible, right to do that we're in. We are in a space now right where it's

[pj_wehry]: yeah, right right,

[deva_woodly]: It's not literally impossible to do that. The question is how do we do it

[deva_woodly]: It's not literally impossible to do that. The question is how do we do it

[deva_woodly]: right. That should be the place that you start from. You know. so, um, that's

[deva_woodly]: right. That should be the place that you start from. You know. so, um, that's

[deva_woodly]: what I mean. we have to question the assumptions about what we think. Our

[deva_woodly]: what I mean. we have to question the assumptions about what we think. Our

[deva_woodly]: limitations are not because there are no limitations, or because everything can

[deva_woodly]: limitations are not because there are no limitations, or because everything can

[deva_woodly]: be perfect, but because we can stop ourselves from doing what we actually can

[deva_woodly]: be perfect, but because we can stop ourselves from doing what we actually can

[deva_woodly]: do by simply the limit of our imagination.

[deva_woodly]: do by simply the limit of our imagination.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, Uh, and that I definitely feel that. Um, you know I mentioned. Uh, I don't

[pj_wehry]: remember was before we started really recording. but uh, I, the transition from

[pj_wehry]: being

[pj_wehry]: uh, I used to be a a teacher to uh, being a small business owner and

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: realizing how much I had been taught even as a kid that you get a job. You get

[pj_wehry]: paid for your time

[deva_woodly]: that's right,

[pj_wehry]: and not your value is your work. and one of the biggest things I had to switch was

[pj_wehry]: and not your value is your work. and one of the biggest things I had to switch was

[pj_wehry]: like

[pj_wehry]: like

[pj_wehry]: Uh, and it's incredibly free and people just don't hear it and they don't see it.

[pj_wehry]: Because we're we're taught like Go get a good job. those kind of things. And then

[pj_wehry]: you

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: see there's a whole class of people who grow up with entrepreneurial parents who

[pj_wehry]: are taught like It doesn't matter how long you work. What matters is that you get

[pj_wehry]: the job done

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: and that's uh. that's it. But we have these initial, just ts of thought. And if we

[pj_wehry]: don't start with Uh, Dec, structing what that is at the beginning, then you like

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: you. You' just kind of stuck like. Well, I have to have this job because if I

[pj_wehry]: don't have this job, how am I going to feed my family and there there's

[deva_woodly]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: a lot of different resources to. and that's a very small thing, and that's a

[pj_wehry]: personal example, right, but communally we

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: can do these things too.

[pj_wehry]: can do these things too.

[deva_woodly]: right, I mean, we have to start asking questions about. Okay, what actually is

[deva_woodly]: impossible and what is actually

[pj_wehry]: right.

[deva_woodly]: possible, Right, I mean, that is is where we kind of begin and you see this

[deva_woodly]: playo in large and small

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: ways, Right, I mean, you know, for me, I was just absolutely astonished, Um.

[deva_woodly]: For example, when Um, the press secretary, Jasaki, right of of by the

[deva_woodly]: administration's press secretary was asked, Um, and this was you know, now,

[deva_woodly]: maybe a month ago, a month and a half ago. Um, you know what are you going to?

[deva_woodly]: You know? Do to make tests and mass like available to you know more people, and

[deva_woodly]: Um. the press secret Try laughed and said, What do you want us to send them to

[deva_woodly]: for free to every American

[deva_woodly]: Right? and Um, And you know it's some.

[deva_woodly]: I was

[deva_woodly]: okay, but beyond just the

[pj_wehry]: but we can do the vacc scens for free.

[deva_woodly]: right, I mean

[pj_wehry]: Sorry. Go ahead,

[deva_woodly]: it. just it was. just it was like this is a failure

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: of you know. this is absolutely stopping yourself from imagining what is

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: possible And that's not even. it's not even a far

[pj_wehry]: no,

[deva_woodly]: imagination right. Other countries do this like it's completely within the

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: purview right of a government to do this right. But the idea that no, we can't

[deva_woodly]: send. You know, we can't send things to care for, peop people to them for free.

[deva_woodly]: Because somehow that contravenes the American way, right, Um, you know that

[deva_woodly]: that's that's a

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: limitation. Um. that doesn't have to be there. and it starts with absolutely

[deva_woodly]: having the wrong assumptions and asking the wrong questions. And um, you know

[deva_woodly]: the good news, I think I hope is that people um, are beginning not to accept

[deva_woodly]: that kind of limitation, and particularly people who organizeing social

[pj_wehry]: hm, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: limits right. And that's what social movements um are about. right. Um, you

[deva_woodly]: know there arere about people not accepting the limitation of whatever the

[deva_woodly]: social moray is what the law is Right. At the moment, what the government says

[deva_woodly]: that it can do will do, should do, will provide, and it's Um. people who are

[deva_woodly]: getting together and saying, Actually, according to our experience in,

[deva_woodly]: according to what we have discovered right, Because that's the other thing that

[deva_woodly]: people don't recognize is that social movements are very well studied.

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: Actually, um, um, M, Most of the time re like a. A huge part of being in

[deva_woodly]: movement is like gathering information and

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: facts about

[deva_woodly]: about Um. What the issue is, Um, and Um. Those people getting together and

[deva_woodly]: saying, actually, we have alternatives and we have to pursue those

[deva_woodly]: alternatives, right, um, because otherwise I'm not going to be able to live a

[deva_woodly]: an equal dignified free

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: thriving life, right, um. and um. Neither are all of these other people and

[deva_woodly]: maybe neither are you

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: right,

[deva_woodly]: right, um. Because it turns out that these struggles are very much connected,

[deva_woodly]: right, Um, struggles for racial justice, struggles for housing, affordability

[deva_woodly]: struggles for environmental protection and struggles. Um, among the work you

[deva_woodly]: know for the working class, all of these struggles are

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[deva_woodly]: connected Right, and it is about Um people, Um, getting together, Um, educating

[deva_woodly]: themselves in each other, learning together, right, Um, how it is we can solve

[deva_woodly]: these problems, what we have to demand, what we have to dismantle what we have

[deva_woodly]: to rebuild in order to make thriving lives possible.

[pj_wehry]: So as we think about that, I'd like to, we've talked quite a bit about

[pj_wehry]: participation, and we, I think weve mentioned a little bit about public meaning,

[pj_wehry]: But how do you shape public meaning to create more possibilitiesm?

[deva_woodly]: Yeah, I mean this is the thing that social movements that last do Um. and it's

[deva_woodly]: not easy. right like that's the other thing is that Um. you know, shaping

[deva_woodly]: public meaning is about Um. combining Um values right, old ideas that people

[deva_woodly]: already have Um, through people's understanding of the world as it is with new

[deva_woodly]: purposes, right that present a vision of the world as it could be right or

[deva_woodly]: should be okay. So it's a kind of a three step process. You start where people

[deva_woodly]: are. You bring them through the kind of story and evidence of lived experience

[deva_woodly]: and say it's actually possible to do things a different way, right, Um. And

[deva_woodly]: when social movements are able to do that, and I call that making resonant

[deva_woodly]: arguments. When socialms are able to make these resonant arguments over time,

[deva_woodly]: what they do is they change the baseline of how people evaluate certain

[deva_woodly]: problems, right, Um, some people talk about this as shifting the overton

[deva_woodly]: window. Although that's usually among elites. Um, you know in in decision

[deva_woodly]: making sessions like legislatures, et cetera, Um, what I talk about is among

[deva_woodly]: the whole

[pj_wehry]: right.

[deva_woodly]: population, Right, it's the shift from the notion of same sexual marriage to

[deva_woodly]: the notion of marriage equality. Right is a change in public meaning, right,

[deva_woodly]: Um, it is a shift in Um. You know thinking you know that unions are on the way

[deva_woodly]: out and the living wage is a nice idea, but it would never work. Um to a

[deva_woodly]: resurgence in organizing for unions and people, understanding that Um.

[deva_woodly]: actually, Um. workers deserve to have a dignified Um life where they're able to

[deva_woodly]: Um, set the terms on which their labor will be.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: You know, Um, Um, utilized right, Um, and the ways that they are are able to

[deva_woodly]: determine their own value. right, Um. That is a shift in kind of public

[deva_woodly]: meaning. Right What it means? Um to evaluate these political problems, In the

[deva_woodly]: case of racial justice, it is a shift, right Um. in thinking through Um.

[deva_woodly]: discrimination as in individual interpersonal feelings, based enterprise, and

[deva_woodly]: thinking about, instead the notion of systemic and institutional racism, right,

[deva_woodly]: Um. How racist impacts and discriminatory impacts Um are not just about, you

[deva_woodly]: know, mean people doing mean things, but is instead about the rules, Um, laws

[deva_woodly]: and institutional practices that keep Um. you know, Um, people of color, or

[deva_woodly]: especially black and indigenous people from being able to live thriving lives,

[deva_woodly]: right, Um, And so you know, all of these things are shifts in the baseline way

[deva_woodly]: that many people right. Most people understand an issue and it's really

[deva_woodly]: important to understand that shifts in public meaning don't mean that

[deva_woodly]: everyone's in

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: agreement, right, Um about these issues like Um, you know democracy is hard,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right they? then everybody is it? Everybody is not going to be in agreement.

[deva_woodly]: But it is a shift in the baseline, Um. Understandability right,

[deva_woodly]: intelligibility, right of what the dimensions of a problem are, and when we

[deva_woodly]: understand a problem

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: differently, the solutions that we consider will also be different,

[pj_wehry]: yes, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Right and that's why shifts in public meaning are so important. And that's why

[deva_woodly]: that's some of the most fundamental work that social movements do. Now This

[deva_woodly]: shift. These kinds of shits in public meaning do not have a one to want

[deva_woodly]: correspondence with policy

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: wins right, um, Um. especially as these meetings are being introduced, Um. what

[deva_woodly]: I found in my work on marriage E quaality and living Wage, The living Wage

[deva_woodly]: movement was that Um. Actually, there's a. There's a period of backlash

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: right which we are also experienced in terms of racial justice

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: movements Right now, Um. That happens after the idea is introduced or the set

[deva_woodly]: of ideas are introduced and gained salience. There is a pushback right. There's

[deva_woodly]: a political pushback, a regressive push that wants to maintain the stay', ▁quo,

[deva_woodly]: whatever it is, and those regressive pushes are often quite successful in the

[deva_woodly]: moment. But if movements are able to remain organized and are able to continue

[deva_woodly]: with their resonant messaging, Um, it's and Um. the opposition forces are not

[deva_woodly]: able to completely control the information environment, right, Um, and also the

[deva_woodly]: material environment. Then, Um. There is a chance for those public meanings to

[deva_woodly]: be overcome

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[deva_woodly]: right and we did see this happen, for example in the marriage equality

[deva_woodly]: movement, Um. I don't know if you remember, but you know that that movement

[deva_woodly]: organized as such in nineteen ninety three um, and in two thousand and four um.

[deva_woodly]: Of course Democrats lost the presidential election and there was a huge slew

[deva_woodly]: right of of all this blame like like it. It was the gay people's fault, trying

[deva_woodly]: to allow them get. It was absolutely that we need to stop talking about those

[deva_woodly]: issues right like I don't know if you remember this discourse, but it was a. I

[deva_woodly]: mean, it's there right in the public record. Um,

[pj_wehry]: I was sixteen, so

[deva_woodly]: you were you. little.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, kind of yeah.

[deva_woodly]: Well, that is what happened right, I was in.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yes, yeah, I've got track of with you yet.

[deva_woodly]: Yes, um, I was in. I think graduate

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: school at the time. So Um, and so I absolutely remember those those

[deva_woodly]: conversations

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: happening and it became like this mainstream talking point That it was

[deva_woodly]: absolutely the

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: gaze like they were the reason.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Um. You know, Um, and Democrats need to stop messing with them because they're

[deva_woodly]: just going to continue to

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: lose, right. Um. Of course that movement remained mobilized even though it was

[deva_woodly]: demoralized. fractious. Um, it wasn't an easy time, right. but, but of course,

[deva_woodly]: then within four years public opinion completely shifted on that issue

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[deva_woodly]: right Um, now it. it didn't happen. Sort of inevitably. it happened because

[deva_woodly]: those same resonant arguments about what was at stake

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right in that

[pj_wehry]: yep.

[deva_woodly]: debate, right kept being

[pj_wehry]: y.

[deva_woodly]: made, and the counterarguments came to seem less and less credible. They were

[deva_woodly]: also less unified, right than the. the. The arguments for Um and Um, and the

[deva_woodly]: counterarguments Also Um came to, And I think this is really important

[deva_woodly]: did not match up with people's experience of the world,

[pj_wehry]: right.

[deva_woodly]: right, um, um, in a way that help people make sense of

[deva_woodly]: the world. Most people right, Um, not all people

[pj_wehry]: yes. yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Oh, it's never all people.

[deva_woodly]: but most people. I'm I'm always

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: that's right. I'm always dealing with majorities. I'm never saying all

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: people right, Um, And and that really

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: matters right. So, uh, now, as we're dealing with a really severe backlash, Um

[deva_woodly]: to the black labs matter movement, Um, to the idea, which had you know, just

[deva_woodly]: gained saliance. Um, at least in mainstreaming politics of systemic racism,

[deva_woodly]: right, Um, you know, that's what the sort of critical race theory backlashes

[deva_woodly]: all about. it's. it's a counter argument to the notion of systemic racism,

[deva_woodly]: which had finally gotten some

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: traction. Really, Um, and Um, you know we're in the midst of a very, a very

[deva_woodly]: severe backlash where Um. you know, Um. many states have moved to Um,

[deva_woodly]: to outlaw the the teaching of critical race theory, whatever they think that

[deva_woodly]: is, but that's also expanded to Um. Pulling books from that are just by black

[deva_woodly]: authors off library

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[deva_woodly]: shelves. Um, you know and um, you know. Same with the notion and sort of police

[deva_woodly]: saying right, we have this media narrative about a crime wave that is actually

[deva_woodly]: empirically not happening. Um, and also might, um, y. well, we'll talk about

[deva_woodly]: that right. uh.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: but uh, no, that's a. That's a whole. That's the whole point that I also

[pj_wehry]: okay up.

[deva_woodly]: want to talk about. but anyway, um, all of this um, you know and

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: people are responding to that, Um with the notion that actually police need

[deva_woodly]: more money, more authority, more right. And and that, Um, the notion of uh, you

[deva_woodly]: know, Defd is sort of dead on arrival. right, um, you know, et cetera so you

[deva_woodly]: know we're experiencing a similar kind of backlash

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[deva_woodly]: now, right, um, that we have seen before with other successful

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: movements, right, um, you know, with marriage E quality, thirty three states

[deva_woodly]: pay past constitutional amendments to ban same sex

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: marriage,

[deva_woodly]: right, Um, you know, so you know, this is always a struggle, Right, it's always

[deva_woodly]: a contest, And there are steps forward and steps back. The question is for me,

[deva_woodly]: how are public meanings being shaped? What kinds of new ways are people

[deva_woodly]: thinking about issues and problems? So for example, um, one of my favorite

[deva_woodly]: examples of this is with the notion of defending the police right. Like so, any

[deva_woodly]: kind of mainstream pundit will tell you. That's a horrible idea. It's a

[deva_woodly]: horrible slowan. Why are they saying that right? you know, et Ctera, Um,

[deva_woodly]: and they're wrong for a number of different reasons.

[deva_woodly]: One, Um, they're wrong, um, um, on the merits, right, American policing

[deva_woodly]: institutions have more money, Um, than any other kinds of policing institutions

[deva_woodly]: in the world. They have more money than any of our other public services, which

[deva_woodly]: also means that pllicing institutions are over burdened in terms of what it is

[deva_woodly]: they're expected

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[deva_woodly]: to do right. Um, you know, Um, and you know people who are involved in law

[deva_woodly]: enforcement will also tell you this like, I'm expected to be a social

[pj_wehry]: right

[deva_woodly]: worker and I am expected to alleviate poverty and I'm expected to stop armed

[deva_woodly]: criminals and I am expected to deal with mental health crises right like Um.

[deva_woodly]: And the reason that they're expected to do all that is because we've dumped

[deva_woodly]: almost all of our discretionary money into policing.

[pj_wehry]: right, we're not paying teachers very much, but we have

[deva_woodly]: No,

[pj_wehry]: people in Missouri buying tanks. you know.

[deva_woodly]: right it, it, it. It doesn't make sense right Like, so you know it it. It

[deva_woodly]: focuses all the resources toward one institution that cannot do all these jobs,

[pj_wehry]: yeah. yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right, Um, and should not be expected to do all of

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: these jobs. Right. Instead we need to invest in the things that can actually do

[deva_woodly]: these jobs, right. Um, So so one on the merits, they're wrong, but too. in

[deva_woodly]: terms of messaging, they're all so wrong, Um. Because one of the things that

[deva_woodly]: social movements do is they bring into focused ideas that are currently outside

[deva_woodly]: what we think is

[pj_wehry]: right right.

[deva_woodly]: possible, right, Um, and if they do so successfully, those ideas linger in the

[deva_woodly]: public consciousness even if they linger, Um as objects. Uh that people are

[deva_woodly]: objecting to right. So Um, this notion that Um, you know defunt is the wrong

[deva_woodly]: slogan. Um, what we should really say is Um, You know, refund communities or

[deva_woodly]: Defd is the wrong slogan. What we should really say is retrained, right, Um,

[deva_woodly]: what we should really say is reinvest in education and housing, and right, et

[deva_woodly]: cetera people don't understand that while we're having that conversation,

[pj_wehry]: it's already working. Yeah, it's already working. Yes,

[deva_woodly]: That's it. That's the money. This,

[deva_woodly]: You know. Because, even as any, it's really

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: frustrating Right, even as municipalities dump more money into police, saying,

[deva_woodly]: Right at this moment people are beginning to understand. Actually, there are

[deva_woodly]: all these things that we're not

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: investing in that I want us to be

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: investing in, and we actually have the option in opportunity to do that and in

[deva_woodly]: localities

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right, it's already happening. Right Defding is not necessarily happening yet,

[deva_woodly]: right, um, at least not in significant ways, But it's already happening that Mu

[deva_woodly]: municipalities are trying to invest in other ways to ensure safety, right um,

[deva_woodly]: where they are and imagining different possibilities for their discretionary

[deva_woodly]: funds. And it's also happening that when the question is put to the public, for

[deva_woodly]: example, in referenda right, Um, and such, right, and some of those referendum

[deva_woodly]: were on the ballot in twenty twenty and twenty twenty, people are choosing not

[deva_woodly]: to increase funding to their police departments, and instead to put money into

[deva_woodly]: other kinds of things, and the people who choose that are not necessarily

[deva_woodly]: wearing a banner. Right that says Deepon

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Police. It's just an assessment about. Um, do I think that this organization

[deva_woodly]: needs more money? They seemed really well resourced. Or do I wanna have more in

[deva_woodly]: terms of investing in parks, affordable

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: housing, food, right, like

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: et cetera right, so

[deva_woodly]: um. anyway, So so that's so, having the conversation over time

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[deva_woodly]: Right in a way that is, you know, organized Um by organizers and advocates who

[deva_woodly]: understand Um. what is at stake and what their message is is something that

[deva_woodly]: shapes public meaning over time and makes new things politically possible. But

[deva_woodly]: it's not overnight right. It's not from one election cycle to another You

[deva_woodly]: usually have to look. I've found over a decade

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: right to see

[deva_woodly]: how Um. public meaning changes. Uh, because Um, you know the way the people

[deva_woodly]: think about their lives and what's possible and how the world is takes time to

[deva_woodly]: shift. Um,

[deva_woodly]: you know, and and and you're not guaranteed the outcome that you want. Of

[deva_woodly]: course, but it's

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[deva_woodly]: important to understand how the process works.

[pj_wehry]: and uh. so I, I think W. If there's one thing that people would take away from

[pj_wehry]: this, and uh, it's part of the reason I I wanted to do this podcast. I keep

[pj_wehry]: bringing that up, but that's why I. I. I wanted to have you on and I'm I'm excited

[pj_wehry]: about this is that slogans in many ways are more like keys than platforms, and I

[pj_wehry]: think where people get

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: frustrated as they see like defund the police. It's like no money for the police,

[pj_wehry]: and there are some people who say, just completely abolish it. But that doesn't.

[pj_wehry]: It's not what it is. It's a discussion. Defd the police as a discussion and that,

[pj_wehry]: like, like you said, it's about creating that Dec discussions. like well, not

[pj_wehry]: defend. It's uh, refund this and it's like. Well, that's all part of what we're

[pj_wehry]: doing, which is where even Um. you said that it's not. You're not necessarily

[pj_wehry]: going to get the results that you want you know. Like maybe the exact results. But

[pj_wehry]: you might get some of the results. Uh, and sometimes that might be because you're

[pj_wehry]: wrong You. there's a. There's a better solution over here. If that makes sense,

[pj_wehry]: you know where people

[deva_woodly]: Yeah, I know it could be.

[pj_wehry]: like talk through that discussion. I want to say you there. I mean, generally

[pj_wehry]: you're not like.

[deva_woodly]: Yeah, No, No, absolutely yet, Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Like, like you. Obviously, you're wrong, Doctor wey. No. Oh, that was he. How was

[pj_wehry]: going that? Um,

[pj_wehry]: so you know it? it's funny. Uh, you mentioned earlier and we were. We were talking

[pj_wehry]: about. Um. How racism isn't just about mean people being mean, and uh, the example

[pj_wehry]: that I, I thought of immediately is uh, racism movies. uh, uh, a

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: lot of times people are like, Oh, I watch this movie. You know, racism is bad, and

[pj_wehry]: it it does. Uh, it's good to get people thinking about that and to give these

[pj_wehry]: illustrations of courage, but it often is like. Oh, just racist. Uh, racism is

[pj_wehry]: like mean people doing mean things and in some ways it

[deva_woodly]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: shuts and I think this is important part of all this

[pj_wehry]: uh, public meaning shaping

[pj_wehry]: is

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: that it just shuts down the conversation 'cause it's like Well, don't be a mean

[pj_wehry]: person and don't do mean things. And that's like

[deva_woodly]: Yeah.

[pj_wehry]: that's not what. That's not what we'

[pj_wehry]: really talking about here. I mean, obviously you don't want those things right,

[deva_woodly]: that's not it. No.

[pj_wehry]: but that's that's already becoming increasingly un popular without solving many of

[pj_wehry]: the uh, actual outstanding issues.

[deva_woodly]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: well, and that's partly why discussion about systemic um issues, Um, is really

[deva_woodly]: important. This is one thing that's really important. Generally speaking in

[deva_woodly]: American society is Um. How is it that we have public conversations that help

[deva_woodly]: people think

[pj_wehry]: Yes, yes,

[deva_woodly]: structurally and systemically right? Um, You know, you know one of the things

[deva_woodly]: about the American sort of version of individualism, Um, particularly when

[deva_woodly]: we're thinking about

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: politics, is that we've come to think that it's all about individual

[deva_woodly]: interactions with other individuals, or Um. that individuals inherently know

[deva_woodly]: what their interests rate. This notion

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: of interest, right, I think, inherently know what their interests is, and are

[deva_woodly]: going to like, automatically fight for that right in coalition with other

[deva_woodly]: people who share their

[pj_wehry]: yes.

[deva_woodly]: interests that they inherently know. Um. And that's not actually how the world

[deva_woodly]: works, right, Um. all of our lives, you know we make individual choices. Um.

[deva_woodly]: some of them are better and some of them are worse. But the fact is that we all

[deva_woodly]: liver under conditions that are not of our own making.

[deva_woodly]: Right, we are born into a world that already

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: exists

[pj_wehry]: last I checked.

[deva_woodly]: and we have to work. Yeah, right, like it's not made

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: new just because we kind of walk

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: into it even though we are ireducible snowflakees each in every one of us, and

[deva_woodly]: I mean that in the best possible way, right like

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Um, you know the world exists, and so the fact is that we're we're thinking

[deva_woodly]: about change, right, social change, political change on a large or small

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: scale, We have to understand that the thing that we want to change is not only

[deva_woodly]: our own

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: behavior, right, not even primarily our

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: own behavior. It is really about.

[deva_woodly]: Um. You know, how is it that we can sh, shift the conditions of our

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: lives right, all of our lives in such a way that Um,

[deva_woodly]: we can, you know limit, right, um, diminish, um, discrimination, limit, and

[deva_woodly]: diminish inhumanity, limit, and diminish the suffering that people undergo

[deva_woodly]: right, And all of that is not going to be only about our own, like mindfulness

[deva_woodly]: and yoga practice and therapy, Although yes to all of those things, it is about

[deva_woodly]: how do we have access to institutions that are able to, and see it as their

[deva_woodly]: mission to provide for our. Collective needs, right, Um, and it's and so

[deva_woodly]: thinking about Um. systems and structures is one of I think the key things, Um

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, H,

[deva_woodly]: that we can do civically right to come to understand the scope of the problems

[deva_woodly]: that we face, and the scope of the solutions that are necessary,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: right. Um, you know, and I see this you know, particularly in the case of

[deva_woodly]: environmental. Um, you know issues like the scope of the problem that we face.

[deva_woodly]: Um, you know, in terms of Um,

[deva_woodly]: the possibility of this planet being habitable for human beings, most

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: human beings, Um, in the next hundred years, Um, is not something that is going

[deva_woodly]: to be solved by Um. making sure that we put our own individual things in

[deva_woodly]: recycling. Bis, right like that's not. That's not answering the scope of the

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: question. And so when we talk about those issues,

[deva_woodly]: thinking about things systemically and structurally, Um, is is really the first

[deva_woodly]: step, Um to trying to meet the challenges of the twenty first century

[pj_wehry]: Well said I absolutely appreciate that. Um, One of the things you know for me,

[pj_wehry]: questions of race didn't even really pop up on my radar because I lived for a long

[pj_wehry]: time, Uh, nine years, an hour and a half north of Green Bay, Wisconsin,

[pj_wehry]: So W. I. We were at of college that I knew I knew

[pj_wehry]: four black people the entirety of my time there, because it's just predominantly

[pj_wehry]: white. Uh, and so, even if you're talking about these issues, there's an enormous

[pj_wehry]: amount of misinformation and one things we don't talk about. Uh, I think enough is

[pj_wehry]: that there are multiple modes of knowing,

[pj_wehry]: And so when we talk about, for instance, like a a lot of stuff that. I was just

[pj_wehry]: confused of why the conversation was going the way it was going when I would hear

[pj_wehry]: about politics and stuff like that made tremendously like. made way more sense

[pj_wehry]: once I moved to Chicago, like I was like. Oh, okay, Now like that makes way

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: more sense. Whereas, like the issues that someone's facing in rural Wisconsin in

[pj_wehry]: rural Upper Peninsula, Uh, Michigan is very different, right and so Um, know, just

[pj_wehry]: kind of even going back to. you know. we were talking about gardening. We're

[pj_wehry]: talking about these social movements. What? whatever it is, where you're working

[pj_wehry]: together and you just like rub shoulders with and work with different people is

[pj_wehry]: just very important. Um, and like it kind of leads me to. you know. I want to be

[pj_wehry]: respectful of your time. Were we're drawn to a close here. How do you create

[pj_wehry]: resonance? So resonant arguments. And I think that's you know. Um, just a really

[pj_wehry]: essential important part of this because there is an enormous amount of

[pj_wehry]: misinformation and a lot of people don't even realize Uh, what their interests are

[pj_wehry]: right.

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: So how do you

[deva_woodly]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: create resonance?

[deva_woodly]: well, okay, so um. The process for creating a resonant argument is actually

[deva_woodly]: that three step process

[pj_wehry]: Okay?

[deva_woodly]: I talked about before is one. Um. Old ideas

[pj_wehry]: Sure,

[deva_woodly]: write things that people values that people already hold. That's meeting people

[deva_woodly]: where they are. Organizers also

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: talk about that right and connecting them to new purposes right through

[deva_woodly]: people's experience,

[pj_wehry]: okay,

[deva_woodly]: Right, so people's lived experience. So it's a sort of three prong thing. Um.

[deva_woodly]: So this is one of the reason that resonant arguments are very rarely, um,

[deva_woodly]: purely ideological

[pj_wehry]: y.

[deva_woodly]: arguments. Right, and when I say that I don't um.

[deva_woodly]: What I mean is speaking from inside of an ideology that is not commonly well

[deva_woodly]: known, right or that is massively stereotypeed For whatever reason, Right is

[deva_woodly]: not one that's going to usually create a resonant argument, even if the sort of

[deva_woodly]: um basis of the argument is correct or true, right, Um. you know, Uh, in some

[deva_woodly]: capacity instead it really is about starting where people are right, Um, and

[deva_woodly]: figuring out how to Um. You know, Um articulate a problem right in such a way

[deva_woodly]: that people acknowledge it as a problem because they've they've experienced it

[deva_woodly]: in their own

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: lives, and then offering a set of solutions right, or a way of looking at

[deva_woodly]: things that helps people to understand that those solutions. Um, that way of

[deva_woodly]: looking at the problem actually can, Um. You know, help to solve it right in a

[deva_woodly]: way that comports with Uh, the values that they already hold right. Um, And so,

[deva_woodly]: for example, this is what happened with Um, the marriage equality movement, Um.

[deva_woodly]: Because people you know in In and I wrote about a book about this, but also

[deva_woodly]: articles. but Um, you know people,

[deva_woodly]: A, a majority of people because of social morrays, Um, because of the religious

[deva_woodly]: commitments, Um, at least the way they understood their religious commitments

[deva_woodly]: at the time. Um, you know, had a an idea that with the issue of same sex

[deva_woodly]: marriage, what was at stake was whether or not Um. They personally, Um, you

[deva_woodly]: know, found Um, same like sex, right, same sex, right, um, you know, uh, appeal

[deva_woodly]: or not, right,

[deva_woodly]: Um, And you know that sort of framing or that way of thinking about things, Um,

[deva_woodly]: or they thought that there was a mandate, Um. from their Um, you know religious

[deva_woodly]: affiliation, Um that they had to condemn Um, you know, Um,

[deva_woodly]: you know these again. sexual acts, So was about sex.

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: Basically, um, and so Um, what happened in the sort of reframing of that debate

[deva_woodly]: is that, Um, You know what Activ I said is like. this is not about sex. This is

[deva_woodly]: about family and this is about love. and this is about Um. the rights to the

[deva_woodly]: resources that we need to live in loving community.

[deva_woodly]: Right like that is what is at stake. Not about. However you feel about kind of

[deva_woodly]: sex that we're having or, However, I feel about the kind of sex you're having

[deva_woodly]: right. Like, um, so,

[deva_woodly]: um, um, that was an argument and the the way the people were able to do that is

[deva_woodly]: to say you already value Um, this notion of equality. You already value the

[deva_woodly]: notion of love and a loving family. And let me tell you how this issue is about

[deva_woodly]: those things that you already value and that if you value those things, then

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: you ▁ought to value the access to this institution. And you know there's a

[pj_wehry]: yeah, Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: really weird moment in public opinion polling where you have the majority of

[deva_woodly]: people um, both against same sex sexual acts and for marriage

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: equality Right. So it's because the decision rule for what was at stake

[deva_woodly]: equality Right. So it's because the decision rule for what was at stake

[deva_woodly]: right in that debate

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: changed the decision about whether or not I support this wasn't based on how I

[deva_woodly]: feel about your

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: sex, right, it was about whether

[pj_wehry]: which is a weird thing, which is a weird thing to be concerned about right.

[deva_woodly]: it. It's very. It's

[deva_woodly]: you know, but the boy, he, I don't know. Um, but okay so now this is a limited

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: example, right, you know, and people will sort of like, Tell you that is like.

[deva_woodly]: this is a very. um, you know. Th. This wasn't an example that required the

[deva_woodly]: chain, the funda, the changing of the fundamental structures of society in the

[deva_woodly]: way that a reorganization of the labor market would, in a way that the Um.

[deva_woodly]: defeat right of um. You know white supremacy would um. you know. this is a much

[deva_woodly]: more sort of limited case in that it only required Um. You know inclusion in

[deva_woodly]: institutions that already existed Right. It didn't require a kind of

[deva_woodly]: restructuring those. And that's true, right. That's a fair critique. and yet at

[deva_woodly]: the same time we can see how people's minds changed on this issue, which

[deva_woodly]: nevertheless seemed very out of Um. The ordinary seemed at first when it was

[deva_woodly]: introduced. Um, sort of definitionally absurd. That was one of the most uh,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: frequent arguments against marriage E quaality is that it didn't make

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[deva_woodly]: sense right, like I, I just don't even know. it's not even marriage right if

[deva_woodly]: it's it's right. Um, so you know people really had to get their minds around

[deva_woodly]: something that for them was totally outside the box, right? Um, so that means

[deva_woodly]: that when you're asking people to get their minds around something that is

[deva_woodly]: totally outside the book box and requires the restructuring society, That's an

[deva_woodly]: even longer fight. But I think it proceeds in the same way, right is that

[deva_woodly]: people learn that what's at stake in the issue is something different than they

[deva_woodly]: originally thought. And so then they start to make different policy choices

[deva_woodly]: right, even if they haven't yet or they never right. Changed their mind about

[deva_woodly]: whatever kind of values commitment they had right in the beginning That was

[deva_woodly]: inhibiting them Um from supporting. So this is also, you know, another lesson

[deva_woodly]: in terms of defd. right, even people who would not necessarily say like, carry

[deva_woodly]: this banner offun the police, or who are not abolitionist, and who would never

[deva_woodly]: you know, have an a cab sticker on their

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: car or whatever, Um, they still might think. Actually, it's a bad idea to Sp.

[deva_woodly]: car or whatever, Um, they still might think. Actually, it's a bad idea to Sp.

[deva_woodly]: car or whatever, Um, they still might think. Actually, it's a bad idea to Sp.

[deva_woodly]: and fifty percent of our discretionary budget on the police department.

[deva_woodly]: and fifty percent of our discretionary budget on the police department.

[deva_woodly]: and fifty percent of our discretionary budget on the police department.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Right, what's at stake in that argument is different, right, Um, and when you

[deva_woodly]: change that baseline through the use of resonant arguments, then you make

[deva_woodly]: things politically possible that weren't politically possible before Um. And

[deva_woodly]: that is for me, that is the heart of social change and the kind of social

[deva_woodly]: change that that I'm talking about. Um. doesn't have to be reformist social

[deva_woodly]: change. It can also be large scale or revolutionary social change in the broad

[deva_woodly]: sense of the restructuring of society. Um, and not necessarily the sense of

[deva_woodly]: war. Right when you're in in a If in war situation's everything is different,

[deva_woodly]: right, um, but um.

[deva_woodly]: But you know this process works, whether you are on a long, large scale or a

[deva_woodly]: small scale. Whether your goals are reformist or whether they are radical. The

[deva_woodly]: question is is the way that you're describing things helping people make sense

[deva_woodly]: of the

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[deva_woodly]: world right in a different

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: way, right, and one of the reasons for the huge upheaval that we're having

[deva_woodly]: right now is that the sort of things that we have been told you know, even in

[deva_woodly]: your example of a small business and working job, et cetera, the things that we

[deva_woodly]: have been told about how to organize our

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: lives, right that may have served in the twentieth century, no longer help us

[deva_woodly]: make sense of

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: our lives, and so people are reaching for. All these different

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: explanations, and some are radical and progressive, and some are fascist and

[deva_woodly]: regressive, and some is just

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: confusion right. But it's because there isn't this correspondence of Do, the

[deva_woodly]: ideas that are circulating right in public. The things that we are told are

[deva_woodly]: baseline, common sense. Do those things actually help us make sense of the

[deva_woodly]: conditions in our lives and often the answer is

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[deva_woodly]: No.

[deva_woodly]: So

[pj_wehry]: right.

[deva_woodly]: the project of the twenty first Century is how do we create a correspondence

[deva_woodly]: right between the ideas that we hold about how we ▁ought to organize our lives

[deva_woodly]: and society

[deva_woodly]: right, and the material conditions that we face in society. And that is what

[deva_woodly]: movements are trying to help us do right now.

[pj_wehry]: yes, absolutely, um. I and I would like to. I love to do like

[pj_wehry]: a. a clarifying, Um,

[pj_wehry]: just to restate Kind of what you're talking about. I grew up fundamentalist

[pj_wehry]: Christian,

[pj_wehry]: and uh,

[pj_wehry]: so I grew up with a lot of debates about whether women should be able to wear

[pj_wehry]: pants. Whether rock music was of the devil. Okay, So there were.

[pj_wehry]: There was a lot more argument I think than in the in a I, in my community than in

[pj_wehry]: normal communities Because people are trying to make sense of their lives in in

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: regards to like these kind of things. Um, but what I found especially persuasive

[pj_wehry]: and I'm wondering if this fits into what you're saying is that when someone did

[pj_wehry]: resist an idea,

[pj_wehry]: the important thing wasn't to even bowl them over with arguments. though,

[pj_wehry]: ▁ultimately, like you are talking about

[pj_wehry]: Argu arguments, but the the rhetorical strategy I often found most effective was

[pj_wehry]: find what they are protecting

[pj_wehry]: and show them how what you're describing actually is a better example. what

[pj_wehry]: they're protecting. Is that fitting what you're

[deva_woodly]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: saying?

[deva_woodly]: absolutely absolutely right. So if what people are concerned about is

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: safety, then show people how dumping all of our discretionary funds into

[deva_woodly]: pllicing does not create safety, and actually having green space and housing

[deva_woodly]: and adequate food. that's what creates

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: safety. right. I think that's an absolutely wonderful way of putting it is that

[deva_woodly]: when people are fighting so hard for a particular idea, it's often because they

[deva_woodly]: are protecting

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: something right. And so if you can show them away to preserve or predict or

[deva_woodly]: improve that

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: thing, right, um, you know, then you can find common ground, but this is also

[deva_woodly]: with a caveat that if what they're protecting is truly

[pj_wehry]: yes, yes,

[deva_woodly]: despicable,

[deva_woodly]: then there is no common ground and you have to just you know be, but you have

[pj_wehry]: right, that's the polarizing. That's the stalemate, but what I found specifically

[deva_woodly]: to be able to. that's right.

[pj_wehry]: because I uh, literally went to this college. It was fundamentalist, went to being

[pj_wehry]: evenvgelical in the nine years we were there, so everything

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: changed literally, people like. And you, it's a college. It's an academic setting.

[pj_wehry]: So you have students in the dorm talkingtil two in the morning every night about

[pj_wehry]: theology. So this is like This is why I do this now, because I like it right. It's

[deva_woodly]: Yeah, wow,

[pj_wehry]: like this is

[deva_woodly]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Um. And so, uh, what I found was if you can isolate what pe, what individual

[pj_wehry]: people are protecting the people

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: who are despicable. Uh, in what they're protecting, tend to be quite the minority,

[pj_wehry]: but

[deva_woodly]: M, mhm,

[pj_wehry]: they. but it seems like they have common ground with a lot of people, but they

[pj_wehry]: actually don't. And so that's

[deva_woodly]: right,

[pj_wehry]: why it's very important to find out what is like

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: you know. So um,

[pj_wehry]: you know, Uh, well, we don't need to again specific examples from thatcause lot.

[pj_wehry]: It' just weird.

[deva_woodly]: right,

[pj_wehry]: Nobody cares, but

[pj_wehry]: honestly but like with things

[deva_woodly]: but

[pj_wehry]: like you know when someone's like. Well, not. I actually just don't like black

[pj_wehry]: people like most people. Like

[deva_woodly]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: what. No, No, you know what I mean like that that like you, start to isolate the

[pj_wehry]: people who are problematic. If

[deva_woodly]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: does that make sense?

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: No, I. I, I think that that's I think that that's true. I mean I, in. It's in

[deva_woodly]: the sense that I think that you absolutely have to figure out what it is you're

[deva_woodly]: disagreeing about

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: with people you know. Um, So if you know if what you're disagreeing about is

[deva_woodly]: the idea that actually there are some humans that are just better than other

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: humans, and everything about our society should reflect that, Well, that's a

[deva_woodly]: dis. that's a fundamental

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: disagreement and we have no common ground. Um, you know, if it is something

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: else right then what we have is something that we need to talk through and

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: about which doesn't mean that we'll agree

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: in the end, But it does mean that we can be a part of the same conversation. So

[deva_woodly]: I absolutely agree with you and I also to lift up this tradition of cyotos that

[deva_woodly]: you talked about right, like this notion that you got. I mean, and that's why

[deva_woodly]: college is is special, right,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[deva_woodly]: Like is that like you guys had the time and

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: space to discuss and debate

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[deva_woodly]: ideas, and in the discussing and debating of those ideas, there's also

[deva_woodly]: community that's

[pj_wehry]: right,

[deva_woodly]: created right. Um. This is also another reason to get the political economy

[deva_woodly]: under control. because just giving people time and space to discuss ideas and

[deva_woodly]: work together. And you know this is why, also reinvesting in the public and

[deva_woodly]: public spaces right is also important because those spaces where people can

[deva_woodly]: kind of get together and you know whatever play

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: chess or um, you know, um, uh, whatever they're doing and just talk. You know

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[deva_woodly]: what. I mean. Just like to like. those are really really important

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[deva_woodly]: spaces. Um, for nurturing the capacity, Uh, for democratic politics,

[deva_woodly]: spaces. Um, for nurturing the capacity, Uh, for democratic politics,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, absolutely, um. thank you so much for a time. If you could leave one thing

[pj_wehry]: to our audience, what would it be?

[deva_woodly]: I would say, Um, find a way to

[deva_woodly]: um, get involved locally right. I would say that one of the most important

[deva_woodly]: things that we can do. Um, in addition to you know everything that you say

[deva_woodly]: about like educ

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[deva_woodly]: yourself, right, et cetera we actually have better education in community, and

[deva_woodly]: so,

[pj_wehry]: H.

[deva_woodly]: to get involved locally about something that you care about, and to try to find

[deva_woodly]: ways of carrying that sort of forward right in your own local space and

[deva_woodly]: community and understanding how that local space and how that local set of

[deva_woodly]: fights right, whatever they are, Um connect to a broader political

[pj_wehry]: mhm,

[deva_woodly]: story. For me, that's the most critical work of democracy right now Is making

[deva_woodly]: those connections between the concrete and local and the larger in terms of

[deva_woodly]: national and even global. But I think that absolutely starts with

[deva_woodly]: understanding,

[deva_woodly]: understanding what's going on where you are.

[pj_wehry]: Mm, thank you, Doctor Wdley. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[deva_woodly]: It's been a pleasure to thank you.