Welcome to the quest to become
sustainably human at work.
I'm Liz Wiltsie and I'll be your curator.
My goal with every episode is to
share insight from someone I admire.
That will help you on your own quest.
So I ask you to join me.
Today, I get to welcome Dr.
Lisa Orbé-Austin . She is a licensed
psychologist and executive coach
with a focus on career advancement
and leadership development.
She is a co-founder and partner of Dynamic
Transitions Psychological Consulting,
a career and executive coaching
consultancy where she works mostly with
high-potential managers and executives.
She earned her doctorate in Counseling
Psychology from Columbia University.
She recently gave a TEDx Talk entitled The
Imposter Syndrome Paradox, and her book,
Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor
Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed In
Life, co-authored with her partner Richard
Orbé-Austin, was released in April 2020.
So I came to Lisa's work because of
Instagram , which I'm really grateful
in the pandemic that so many of you
with so much to offer have offered it on
Instagram . And I think imposter syndrome
is something that we just all, and I
guess, it doesn't hit all of us, but it
hits a lot of us in really specific ways-
Yeah.
And so I would love for you to talk
about how that became your work.
Sure, and the numbers are somewhere
between I think, 70 and 75% of us
that it hits, so it hits a lot.
I just saw a KPMG study, I just posted
about it , that they said that 75% of
female executives have imposter syndrome.
And so really I came about it to it
personally first before I started really
talking about it, writing about it.
It was my own personal experience that I
talk about in the TED Talk where I had a
really intense case of imposter syndrome
right after I had finished my PhD, and was
in a job that was really oppressive and
really horrible, and had a really awful
boss, and I was watching how the imposter
syndrome was, like, disintegrating
all my hopes, my dreams, my future.
And so that's when I first came to it, and
I started writing about it here and there.
And then I was approached by our publisher
to write this book on imposter syndrome.
They had seen some other work that we had
put out here and there, and they wanted us
to potentially consider writing this book.
And they were really wonderful
and open, and were, kind of , "You
can write whatever you want.
You can-," and we were like, "I only
want, we only want to write a book that
actually does something for people,
that will actually help them change
their experience of imposter syndrome."
And so that's how we came to the work.
So, when you're advising folks, when
you're thinking about the 75% of us...
I'm always scared to universalize
my experience and say that lots
of people feel this way, and
then I find lots of people.
But there's data.
Yes.
[laughs].
Right?
So, when you're talking to that
75% of us, what are the biggest
things that you think people can
do to, sort of, take a stab at it?
Yeah, and I think it's a great question
because I think oftentimes people
are, like, "I have imposter syndrome",
and they're like, "That's it."
It's, no, you don't always
have to have imposter syndrome.
It can actually shift in the way
that it operates in your life, and I
think, to me, that's the number one
thing you can do is recognize that it
doesn't have to always be like this.
And then I think what we've talked
about in the book, and then what we
have formulated as a plan of how to deal
with it requires understanding where it
came from, understanding its origins.
You know, a lot of people joke,
"Oh, imposter syndrome comes from
social media", and it does not,
it comes from early experiences.
And then really thinking about
how you're going to change your
behaviors to really combat the
imposter syndrome really proactively.
And the third piece of it is really
build a system around you that helps
you to continue to make sure that you're
actively combating your imposter syndrome.
The book really is three phases that
really are about knowing the tools
and skills to combat it consistently.
When you say "system,"
does that mean people?
Does that mean calendars?
Does that mean notebooks?
Like-
[laughs].
What does that mean?
[laughs].
Yeah it, kind of, means all of those
things but specifically we talk about
having a dream team, having a set of
people around you, and we name who they
are, somebody's who's like a mentor,
someone who's like a cheerleader,
someone who's a strategy planner.
Having these people around you that
can help you to not do this alone.
So oftentimes when we have imposter
syndrome, we struggle in it quietly
and alone because we're embarrassed
about having it, one, and two, it feels
very scary to be able to tell somebody
because maybe you are truly a fraud and
they will actually know that you are.
And so, we often do this alone,
and the idea is to build a
system around you of people.
I think also, too, we talk about
building a system of skills around
you . So thinking about , for example,
imposter syndrome often creates these
automatic negative thoughts, really
learning how to combat automatic negative
thoughts and proactively engage them as
opposed to thinking you are the thought
and the thought can never change.
So really having a bunch of skills and
tools, having really good self-care habits
because oftentimes we are really bad at
self care and we deprioritize ourselves
over all the performance stuff that really
we feel like is central to who we are.
We don't take care of ourselves.
So having a bunch of different systems
that are really important to combating the
imposter syndrome, so all of those things.
Plans, schedules, people, that are
proactively thinking about that.
And do you see that the stats, anecdotal
evidence, that I have seen is really
talented women, particularly women of
color, saying "I struggle with this"?
Do you see it there as well?
Yeah.
The research is inconclusive, so
initially this phenomena was studied
by two psychologists in the late
1970s and they mostly looked at it in
women, so it has this history of being
studied with women, so a lot of people
think it just happens in women, but
the data of it being studied in men
and people of color is inconclusive.
Sometimes they say it's more
women, sometimes they say it's not.
I would probably suggest it's probably
evenly occurring across the population,
but I do think with women, people of
color, first gen, there's an experience
of what we call the double impact, where
you not only are both experiencing this
internally, but you're also being told
externally by the system that you are an
imposter, that you're not capable, that
you're not good enough . So you're not
only combating it internally, but you're
combating it externally and that creates
a more difficult process of overcoming it.
And also, too, men deal
with it differently.
So, what the research shows is that
women actually face the things that
they're afraid of, and so they constantly
are exposed to the imposter syndrome
and the feelings of fraudulence.
Where men are much more concerned
with how they appear, so they tend
to put themselves in situations where
they'll be, like, top dog and they're
in a less competitive spaces with
less competitive peer s, so they're
not directly confronting it as, as
much as women tend to, you know?
That's so interesting.
That makes sense, right?
Yeah.
When you think about it,
it totally makes sense.
Yes.
And then part of your consulting
is around equity and inclusion
work, as in work places-
Yep [affirmative].
What do you tend to talk
about to help folks combat it
at an organizational level?
Does that question make sense?
Yes, absolutely.
And I think what is very interesting
is that there are systems in
place that also help to reinforce
imposter syndrome dynamics.
So, what we are largely focused on
when we work with an organization who
is committed and doesn't want this to
happen in their employees, is we talk
about imposter-syndrome-sustaining
cultures in work places where, for
example, overworking is normalized,
where you're expected to be accessible
24/7, where the goalposts change
constantly around your targets.
We teach them the kinds of cultures
that actually sustain us and how to
change that cultural dynamic, so in
essence, you are not accidentally also
reinforcing the imposter syndrome in
your employees, and then wondering
why they have imposter syndrome.
[laughs].
So we teach them the ways in which their
culture and what they need to do to change
it, is affecting this kind of dynamic.
The number of businesses that I see that
are, like, "Yeah, I want you to work
80 hours a week, but here meditate-"
[laughs].
Yeah, exactly.
And probably going, "What are you doing?"
Yeah, what are you doing?
And it's offensive.
It's offensive to be, like,
work needs to be your number
one priority and have balance.
It's just it's window dressing.
It really doesn't understand the
philosophy around mindfulness and
being present, and really learning
how to have balance in your life.
They talk about greenwashing, it's
like mindfulness washing, you know?
[laughs].
[laughs].
Right.
So , this is the question I
ask everybody, what are you
grappling with in this moment?
I think it's a great question.
I think one of the things I'm
grappling with currently is really
trying to work with these ideas of
systemic change and getting people
to buy into them, even if they don't
necessarily want to make those changes.
So D&I issues, how to help organizations
to actually put into place systems,
processes, procedures that actually
help the entire organization be
more inclusive, be more open, be
more engaged with these ideas, even
if everyone if doesn't want that.
So thinking about how to tie this
systemicly to performance, and to
compensation, and thinking about how do
you motivate people who don't really have
skin in a game or care, to actually do
what is best ? And so it's a complicated
question, because in every situation
it's, different, every organization
is different, every situation I work
with a manager, it's different, but I
think it's so important that we make
systemic change and grapple with how
that actually happens productivel y.
Yeah, I'm constantly holding this
tension between we enact systems
of oppression relationally, like-
Yeah.
One on one, and then-
Yeah.
We also have a responsibility
to the larger thing-
Yeah.
And so how are we constantly acting
in those ways and recognizing that I
may be doing a certain thing, but it
may not be happening for the whole-
Yeah.
Rest of the company?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I think that, to me that's
the, that's so what I'm really
tackling and trying to...how to
make systemic change one action at
a time, but make it systemically?
I think I'm always thinking about
that piece because I think a lot of
people are following the summer and
the George Floyd, the protest, there
was a lot of fervor around it, and
now I've seen a lot of backlash.
And so in that moment of backlash,
we have to think about how to
institutionalize these changes because
it can't just be the will of the people
in the moment, because it goes away.
And these changes that, you
know, fly under a, sort of,
diversity and inclusion flag-
Yeah.
Are things like you're talking about where
people are not working 80-hour weeks-
Yeah.
Where people are not expected
to have 24/7 availability.
It's not-
Yeah.
That is everybody that's going to-
Yes.
Benefit from these changes, right?
Exactly.
Yeah, because you can see how
it ripples across for all of us.
It, it makes a difference for all of
us, and like a lot of the data suggests
in more diverse environments, you get
more creative thinking, you get better
outcomes you actually, their bottom lines
is affected in greater ways so it affects
us all positively to do these things.
Indeed.
I feel like we could have this
conversation for the remainder of the day.
[laughs] Yeah.
But I'll avoid that . But thank
you, Lisa, for being with me.
I really appreciate it.
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me, Liz.
If you've appreciated Dr.
Lisa Orbé-Austin's insight in this
episode, you can hear more from her on her
Instagram, which is chock full of super,
super useful and accessible information.
And then also, get her book.
Her book is called Own Your Greatness:
Overcome Imposter Syndrome, Beat
Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life.
She wrote it with her partner, Dr.
Richard Orbé-Austin.
It is well-worth picking up because
it has so much actionable insight
about what you can actually do
to defeat imposter syndrome.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please
see the show notes at 4 Needs.work/podcast
and you can see the rest of the
episodes of Sustainably Human at Work.