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The next African story will be written by Africans, and there are people crafting the narrative now. Join Dotun as he hosts a series of conversation with people whose ideas and work is shaping the African future.
BTF S5 Bode Abifarin
Dotun O: [00:00:00] Bode, it is good to have you on the show.
Bode A: Yeah. Thank you Dotun, happy to be here.
Dotun O: Yeah. The first time I met you was 2017, I think when you were just joining Flutterwave. And I remember then the conversation I had before I met you was, there's this lady, she's from KPMG. To me that was a negative , but she's a very good data person, has used data to drive conversation in the banking ecosystem and she's well known.
Dotun O: She's like the Mary Meeker of the banking industry, but she's joining Flutterwave to help with shipping things. And then we met, we had good conversations and at that time I was doing some work with Flutterwave. I have two questions by the way. The first one is what were the key mental frame and thought processes that you used to transition from good paying job? established system into a chaotic series A or seed startup at that stage.
Bode A: 2017 was actually when I met. Iyin and gb, But I didn't join fully until 2018.
Bode A: I had spent [00:01:00] about 15 years in KPMG. And what I was doing was towards the later part of my career, I was focused on strategy. So helping tier one banks with their. Three year, five year plans. Any of the tier one banks, I ran their strategy and one of the things that we used to do back then was, how consultants will use consultanese and say, these are the seven mega trends, that we see in to the future.
Bode A: Internet of things payment. There were quite a number of things that we had laid out when we were running Those sessions, just helping the organizations begin to think about how will all this shape out in the next five, 10 years? What should we be looking at? We brought in partners from Brazil. We brought in partners, from Australia. We had all of these people that were really ahead, especially Brazil, India. We had leading institutions that had done similar things. So they would come and break it down to us. And I used to lead a lot of those pulling together.
Bode A: Coming up with the business model, the business plan for these banks, how do you [00:02:00] navigate from doing corporate to retail banking? So those things used to stick with me, right? I had done consulting in fact. I started also leading customer advisory. And that came about when, minimum capital was changed.
Bode A: We had almost over 80 banks that went to 25. So where we started with, saying, what's the voice of the customer? Using that to piggyback to if this is the voice of the customer and this is what they want, how does that translate to the things that you need to do for operational efficiency?
Bode A: So for me, I felt like I had done consulting. I could do all of those things with my eyes closed. And I was very curious in terms of, this future that we were painting for these other people. So when you go and check in, in implementation phase, it'll be like, but you don't know how hard this thing is easy for you to bring your laptop, come and drink our tea and tell us how this is the future.
Bode A: But we are the ones that know the market. Market size is something else but can you actually implement this? So some of those things even in Frank's setting, they'll be like, but they, she knows everything, but she's not a, she's not been in the [00:03:00] industry and all of that. So I was like, okay, no problem.
Bode A: Then I went to do my masters in Imperial. One of my friends now connected me. And the reason why they connected me is because I have a heart for small businesses, right? So even in my spare time, I volunteered at Faith Foundation. In my church, covenant Capital.
Bode A: I did a lot of volunteering, and I became known among my circle that if you had a business problem call Bode, she does it for everybody, do you? And just call her and all of that. So it was one of those things where it was GB that reached out to my friend, and the friend was not like, okay, I have somebody rights.
Bode A: They were thinking, their vision structure and all of that. At that time, she doesn't really like doing HR stuff. She's more into strategy. But if there's anybody that will give you some time to hear you out, call Bode So my friend came to me okay. I said, I'll call. And that was when I called in that 2017.
Bode A: So it was more like, we are meeting weekend, what's your plan? Just helping them to. Pull the stuff together. What's the plan forward? What does the business plan look like? Where do you want [00:04:00] to play?
Bode A: How do you want to go to market? What does this mean in term of supporting infrastructure? That was how it was in 2017. So as I began to have some of those meetings, like every weekend, we had a group chat, oh, Bode this is what we're doing. This is what, and funny enough I'd worked on.
Bode A: Customer advisory and strategy for one of the banks GB was working in, so I'd met him informally when I went to interview. He's been in settings where I'm facilitating and all of that. So when I met him I was like, oh wow, this guy. I think. For me, after spending all that time what really made me move was one thing that happened where over the weekends they would describe the business.
Bode A: I started meeting some of the people they had recruited, just a very lean team at that point, and I remember they had one or two customers and there was an issue with. One of their products, a payout product, and the only customer or one or two customers they had left. And the engineer told me that, Bode, don't worry, we'll fix this before tomorrow morning.
Bode A: So on a weekend I went to see them, in the office that they [00:05:00] were. And then they wrote some codes, that was the first. Time that I was seeing, a lot of the things I was seeing when mega trends come to life the beauty of when you say engineering, in our own days there was a computer room where people go and code, they would say cobalt and everything, and then you now see somebody do codes with tests and then the other person says, I've received the payment.
Bode A: It was like, the doing right. Engineering coming to life
Dotun O: And it's fast as what
Bode A: You code. No, you, because you code, you've written code and because you've written code, you've connected a rail and somebody gets a payment. After a week, the customers came back because it was working, meaning, and I was connecting it to the voice of customer had done over a decade where customers say they just want something that works, right?
Bode A: So if it works, the customer will come back. So that sort of make made me like, oh wow, this is what it was. And I think also the way GB just painted the challenge, right? I love challenges, I was one of those people that was so the most difficult questions on exams in school.
Bode A: The [00:06:00] way he explained it was so crisp and clear. I was like, oh wow. This is impactful. It is beyond just saying. Maybe this is the opportunity to actually do, when he said, if you look at Africa today, payment was fragmented. If you go to more developed countries, it's not fragmented, right?
Bode A: So if a business owner, you now had to do integrations across multiple locations. So we're saying digital is the next thing. You've gone digital. So you've now gone digital, but you don't have to start thinking about how you collect payments from different people. You have a website, but if a company is saying they want to take on the challenge of you, focus on your core business, let's take on the challenge of if you want to collect with mobile money, if you want to collect with cash, if you want to collect with POS, if you want to collect online, if you want to collect with mpesa, just with one platform, right?
Bode A: It felt so clear. I've done many strategy sessions I've helped to, it just felt like the bridge, like what needed to be done. So I think, just after all those interactions, I. Thinking about the future, what this will mean for businesses what [00:07:00] this will mean for payment.
Bode A: The suitability flexibility and just ability to grow your business, and participate in the global marketplace. That sold me. So for me I wanted to, get my partnership in KPMG, but I was like, I can always. Do consulting, but, I may not be able to do this. So at that point, the vision was clear to me.
Bode A: So going back everybody was like, what? Who, what's this? What are, in the firm? Like what are you doing? So even me, I was like, okay, if I go, if it doesn't work, I'll come back and beg for my job. I think that was it. And then in 2018, towards the end of 2018 or so, that was when I made the jump.
Dotun O: You answered my second question in a way, which is quite good, and I like that. A lot of, people like you who have deep experience in the corporate world transitioning to startup, it's always a challenge for them. And I've seen quite a number of people like that who either they work in a corporate environment that is very structured.
Dotun O: There's some basic assumptions of things that work. And you have the team member that is well trained and there are hierarchies and a [00:08:00] lot of structure. You get what I mean? And when they're coming to startup. it's a different frame of mind. The risk, the assessment the way you do product, the agility can be a challenge for some of those people.
Dotun O: What are the challenges that you have to face to make that transition? And what do you have to put in place for yourself and for the company to make that transition easier or better for you?
Bode A: You know the thing about doing consulting for so long and doing strategies also, you get that resilience, the foundation of problem solving, the foundation of thinking on your feet. The foundation of, I've done sessions that. Last three days and maybe we don't sleep.
Bode A: I've gone all the way to Sydney. We went for a short session and it was just three days. People are coming in, you have to get ready. So that training and that foundation because. You don't just move from analyst to semi to consultants, to manager, to senior manager to director.
Bode A: Do you understand I left KPMG as a director, the training and the discipline that consulting [00:09:00] gives you and that resilience? I think all of those multiple skills and then because. You also get to do multiple things right from the start. It may not make sense to you when you come. When I came in, I did work for MTN and I did process documentation for a long time.
Bode A: At a point they sent me to a store. I was, calibrating stuff at a point to do modeling. So all those skills now come together by the time you are senior and you get to manager, you know how you take your time sheet, how you do your contract, how you saw all of those things came in handy. For someone like me.
Bode A: So just getting in, it was more from, I looked at everything from more from a process point of view. How do we get from A to B? Oh, you don't know how to get from A to B. Oh, you've not billed a client. Let's do it a whatever. So in the beginning, just little little things, like around people oh we don't have a policy for how people go on leave.
Bode A: Just like five bullets. Just let everybody know what it is. So you start documenting and keeping some of those. Documentation. Now in terms of the [00:10:00] core payment, right? I was doing financial services, but it's when you come into payments, you'll be like, omo, I don't know what's going on, right?
Bode A: And then, consultant also teaches you that you're never too big to learn. That's also one of my mantra I can learn from anybody, right? Because people always have different perspectives. So I can be with gb, GB is very visionary. He's always thinking and he'll be like, okay, so he works.
Bode A: So he took some time, to just give me the basics. I think one of the things he really did for me was. You have to test the product, you have to know how it works because in testing you can say, where is this? What is this? And then over the weekend, sometimes in the evenings, I'll reach out to some of the engineers, come and explain.
Bode A: I know GB has given me, this is how I told him, yes, but I don't know Jack. So they'll sit down, they are more patient with me. They'll show me how it works. So by the next time he comes to ask me I'm able to say, okay, this is actually how it works because I've taken my time. But you have to be able to use.
Bode A: We test everything. I think those were some of the basics. Now, all the [00:11:00] relationships and some of the things I did, and I'll give you a funny story, right? So when I used to do customer advice, I did a lot of training where we talked about the five pillars of customer experience. There was one pillar that I used to make fun of.
Bode A: Of the people I'm teaching, I'll be like, it's empathy, right? Where you put people in your shoes. So I'll tell them, say empathy, right? And then they'll be like, Bode, please leave us. I'll play a video. Ask them, what does empathy mean? So the first real challenge that came was there was a time we had a double debits issue, right?
Bode A: Because you're the processor, customers are saying your name and anything. That was like maybe two or three months after I joined. I'm like, okay, so everybody was calling me. Some of the people I had worked with, they were calling me ah, Bode we heard that you are now there.
Bode A: Because the thing is the customers bank, that's the issuing bank, their customers are complaining. They're been double debited. But payment is partnership. There are different people. You have your acquiring bank, as a payment facilitator. Some acquiring banks rely on processors, there are like two or three people within the chain, right? So if a double debit happens, even though you are the one in [00:12:00] front, there are many people in the middle, and there's a process for which those reversals are made. Because issuing banks are about, 21 or so, or 20 something.
Bode A: Banks, you have to cater to all of them. You have to pull the data. a lot of them when I come and be like, Bode, what was going on? I'll be like, guys, how do I do? They be like, Bode, say empathy. They were laughing at me that, I should say empathy. I'm like this, I should put my myself in their shoes.
Bode A: That this is how, what they've always been trying to tell me and everything. So that evening when I got to, I call two or three of, the clients I had worked with, that we had a very good working relationship that I respected on the banking side, they explained a lot of things to me and they really helped me.
Bode A: So I came back, mapped out, just using my process mapping, mapped out what needed to be done. we went through that process, and then once you go through that process, you document it and map it out so that in case it happens again, You know what to do. It's quicker, it's faster. So those relationships really helped. That was really the first major challenge, so that word. Payment [00:13:00] partnership and ecosystem because you can't do it on your own.
Bode A: You rely on people understanding that and then starting from where you are, documenting along your journey, pulling your team along and letting them, ride with you.
Dotun O: There's something you touched on there that I want to double tap on, which is your learning curve in understanding the space that you're here in. So you have the general knowledge. You talk about contest switching as a consultant, learning new things and being able to put yourself in issue of customers and your mind frame around challenges.
Dotun O: But the space that you went into which could be any space. It could have been mining, it could have been telecoms, whatever. But your
Dotun O: Payment, you didn't have the deep knowledge of that. And you're working with a founder with technical and also high level thinking. I wanted to maybe speak further, give more color. How did you learn and within those short time, because you guys were sizing each other up. You mentioned talking to the engineers, but I think that would be more to that as well, how you were able to learn fast and get credibility
Bode A: The beauty about I'm mentioning consulting a lot, but the beauty [00:14:00] about that is that you have to be a voracious consumer of information. So I already had that. This was me that maybe in my third year we are working for a client that needed like a business plan in a French speaking country.
Bode A: So you are, learning some of those things, translating. So you already had that core thing. Now when you say sizing up, I think one of the things that also helped me was, remember that I was having conversations almost every week from 2017 before I joined fully. I also started. The journey never stops because there are always new things, right?
Bode A: As you're sitting, as you're sitting down there are new ai, blockchain, all of those things it never stops. So you have to keep on your feet and you have to keep learning. One of the things that also helped is you agree priorities, right? So when you come in, when I came in newly.
Bode A: I was responsible for operations, for customer experience, for hr. At different points, different things change. Until you now start bringing [00:15:00] more people in, more experts and then they're now responsible for the different part of the organization. But having a to-do list, right? And then going with that to-do list,
Dotun O: be,
Bode A: I'm not.
Bode A: Ashamed to say that I don't know. And when I don't know, you bond the midnight oil. There were a number of courses I had to take. In fact, at a point I went with someone, GB, recommended me to go with some of the founders to China. All we were doing that day was selling our company. You can imagine talking to almost 30 people about this is who we are.
Bode A: So some of those training. Short courses, all of those things help me. You never stop learning
Dotun O: and maybe this is a good way to segue into what does it mean to be a COO? In my work I see a lot of founders two co-founders. One is a CEO, the other one is the COO, You and I were talking just before we went on live here about COO is different for different stage and different type of company, but if you want to distill it down , it's a day-to-day workwhat does it mean in terms of and for different stage of the company? You've been with this company since seed series A to now CT.
Dotun O: team.[00:16:00]
Dotun O: What has evolved in the role? If you want to write the JD of A COO at those different stages, what will it be? And also in the context of working with a super technical CEO.
Bode A: Like I said, when we are chatting the C-O-O-J-D May vary depending on the industry and the strength. I had tea with some other COOs and one of the ladies had a very strong sales background, so managing sales.
Bode A: She's managing expansion now, I think the core basic skill is execution capability. There are the problems of today for a company, right? And then for tomorrow and in the future. So your ability to piece some of those things together very quickly. I'll say one of the major things is also your ability to put processes in place.
Bode A: You know how just looking back, I'm also saying in retrospect some of the things that, A CEO should also focus on. I think it was Vusi, he was explaining that in a Catholic church, doesn't matter if you're in France, if you're in Toronto, [00:17:00] once clock ticks, everybody knows what to do because there are processes in place. That's a sort of fine execution capability. A COO needs to have that if this is how we want to do disputes, there's a process in place and is working like clockwork. Going for automation, ensuring that everybody, like from start to finish, how are things done?
Bode A: Making sure those things are done, then your execution capability, right? People. If you say that, oh. This thing has to be done in two weeks. Ensuring that, those things are delivered in two weeks. Also helping the founder to think ahead that okay, these are the projects that we need to do for us to be able to be relevant and survive in the next two to three years. We have to start thinking about it now, thinking in that direction as well, and being able to execute. I keep saying execute and implementation because you can talk the talk. I think execution and implementation is what usually sets apart.
Dotun O: and I think there's something that you touched on, which is operationalizing or standardizing the operations actually and [00:18:00] operationalizing a startup. Startups sometimes can be chaotic, where people are just doing a lot of things. In your experience, at what point should founders, whether they FCO or not be standardizing their operations.
Bode A: From the beginning. You remember when I, where I started from, right? Where HR manual was just, oh, if you want to go and leave, do this, do that. If you want to go and leave now, maybe there's more meets, right?
Bode A: Because now we have people that are in Tanzania, people in the us, people in the uk, you now have to consider different shades and colors to different things, HR policies, but at that point, you always have to have an update. This is where we are now. At a point you are processing a thousand transactions and you're processing a million.
Bode A: You're not processing 6 million, right? What tools do we need? What processes do we need? How should the structure be? How should this evolve? So just similar to the way we're doing for the banks on the consulting side, you also have to start seeing the future. Everything that is happening [00:19:00] now has happened before because we have, other companies that have gone ahead and are 20, 25 years into some of these things in similar climes.
Bode A: So how using all that data and information to standardize what you have and also begin to think about the future. So it's not just being, oh, we're a digital organization within the organization. Are you also keeping all the internal tools, all the internal processes to that level? So constantly thinking about that, constantly thinking about innovation, constantly thinking about, the future and ensuring that everybody knows that this is the way of doing things.
Bode A: Standardizing helps to bring discipline. It also helps to. Just let people know that this is what you're responsible for. And then you can make people accountable to those things.
Dotun O: Flutterwave is one of those company that has expanded a lot across Africa. It's one of the startups that we can call Pan-African. And you guys expanded fast faster than a lot of other startups in the category. are the lessons personally and look at as a firm?
Dotun O: Things that. You could have done differently and [00:20:00] managing the challenge between focus versus scale in your expansion in Africa.
Bode A: I think once your strategy in terms of your to market, your product, your focus is crisp and clear.
Bode A: Spend time getting that crispiness and the clarity in your own local markets, right? Go deep, go wide, listen to customers iterate, and be the champion of that market. If they say that the market size, so like in Nigeria, compared to other African countries, right? People always say there's a huge opportunity.
Bode A: So use data and insight to find that opportunity. Serve the customers the best you can. Have great products, great platforms, great technology super customer experience, right? So that if you talk to about 10 people, nine out of 10 people will be like, oh, I use Flutterwave as a payment platform.
Bode A: So achieve that length, breadth and depth, do yo understand? suck everything from that, your country. And then as you begin to expand, one of the [00:21:00] strategies is, oh, this English speaking. Go to English speaking first, right? So you begin to look at pockets of opportunities. Now within those pockets of opportunities, you're also driven by data and the size of the market. Also having your playbook. So what playbook has worked for you, how do you replicate that? So a business development person, somebody that knows the market Everybody wants to collect as a merchant, but there are market nuances, right? So your playbook will have what you need to do on your go-to market what you need to do on your supporting.
Bode A: Including regulation, licensing, licensing in terms of where they are, because we were very early, in some of these markets, right? So sometimes regulation catches up. Making sure all your documentation, your licensing, everything what is required is also very important.
Dotun O: But what are the lessons for you guys, what we have done differently in your expansion?
Bode A: Yeah. I think in terms of expansion, everything I've said is what we have done. Like I said, having that local knowledge, which is, in every place we are [00:22:00] now. We have somebody that understands the
Dotun O: So you have to hire people in
Bode A: Yes. All the places that have the knowledge and skills, right? To be able to help you in that particular market. So going for the expertise in terms of, we understand this market. We've done this before, and we can help you navigate from here to here. And then just making sure that your playbook, understanding the structure of the market, and then also ensuring that the culture that you have created in the way we do things is also translated, to that location
Dotun O: The biggest challenge in my opinion with expansion, apart from you have to spend money in those places, is also getting the right talent.
Bode A: Yes.
Dotun O: With different context. And also the nuances of different countries. So payment is the same, but then there are nuances. In your own experience and opinion, what are the key cultural nuances in terms of talent, but also operational and maybe regulatory nuances that is different from Nigeria.
Bode A: I'll answer the question this way. When I was in consulting, I used to do expansion. One of the things that the banks used to do [00:23:00] that I now fully really understood was when they're expanding into a new place, right? They export their people into the new place. And then they get people from within. One of the things why that was critical is, this is the way we do things, right? In our own bank. This is the way we grow our numbers. This is our product. So somebody that really understands that has been with the bank for a long time, they take that person and plant that person in that new location.
Bode A: Now, for the early banks that did that, there were still issues around HR culture oh there's a Lagos way, there's there's, other African country ways which you have to learn. Some of them learns very hard because, people can, in some countries they can sue you if you do, d different things.
Bode A: So you have to learn some of those things. The experience here also helps you in terms of how you work with regulators, how you understand the structure of the country. Sometimes there are many regulators within re just understanding the structure and how you play is one of the key things.
Bode A: So for the culture bits, planting people and [00:24:00] then also growing the people so that they understand, the culture, the norms, and then we can layer that with their own understanding of the market and the expertise and how you grow within the local
Dotun O: But what about the regulatory nuances and also operational commercial nuances that is different? If a founder is listening to you now and they want to learn how to expand to other places in Africa. What are top three things that you think founders should be aware of when they are expanding outside Nigeria toward the African market?
Bode A: So there are different ways to go. Sometimes you want to go greenfield let me go and plant my own. Or you go through partnerships. Sometimes you'd have worked with a partner for three or four years. You're like, okay, there's an opportunity. Let me set up so that, I
Dotun O: So that's a pathway
Bode A: Yeah. So there are different pathways. So understanding the pathways, that you want to go to and there are different pathways. There's no right or wrong, depending on what you want to achieve. I think one of the other things is the research and the market understanding because there are some Africa countries you go to, 97% is mobile money.
Bode A: Do you understand? So how does mobile money [00:25:00] work, right? So if you are traditionally, oh, I do cards, I do that country
Dotun O: difference as well. Yeah.
Bode A: Remember what I also said at the beginning about ecosystem? So also understanding how that ecosystem works, right? The ecosystem in terms of the entire value chain. Who are the people?
Bode A: If it's payments tech, what are the tech hubs, right? Where are the merchants? How do you sell to them? Is it through the banks? Is it through directly? So all those nuances and all those research, right? Layering all of that and then understanding that, okay, even though we are here, we are mainly selling all the operational backbone will still be from our, current location.
Bode A: How does that work? What are the laws for settlements? What are the laws? Is it t plus one? Defining all of those things and spending the time. take your team and be there. Do you understand? Be on ground, have meetings, understand them, just feel the place. So even though you've recruited people on ground, also have a core team that understands the business to be there.
Bode A: Spend a lot of time. [00:26:00] There's no rush, when it comes to expansion,
Dotun O: So if I want to this, I think what I'm hearing you talk about is have a core of your business. Understand that core go deep in your base market first. Get some operational excellence in place. Your playbook , and it might take some time for you to know that there's no point expanding and scaling things that has not been working.
Dotun O: Understand that first, and then when you're going to a new market, understanding new market, the nuances, the differences, regulatory framework, ecosystem, the need, the market, the gap, spend some time to
Bode A: piloting. Pilot.
Dotun O: Sometimes you can even work with partners to get it and then plant your people almost like a church plant. Plant your people first, and then let them be the core to transport your culture the way you do things, the way you operate. And then build an internal team from that place. And so it's a bit of time,
Bode A: Yeah but the thing is that if you take your time and do it properly, the market is there. Like I told you, in the beginning, example, a customer left but they come back because there's a real need for payments. I also wanted to mention that another way for you to expand is if you have one of your large [00:27:00] merchants that is also going to a particular location sometimes.
Bode A: Yeah. That's another sort of expansion.
Dotun O: Interesting. Let's quickly the segue into talent. Operational talent. How do you find, I know one of your role is to find and shape and also mentor operational talent, and I wanted to also touch on diversity here as well.
Dotun O: You're one of the few COO of a large scale billion dollar business in Africa today. From ecosystem perspective, how are you finding shaping and mentoring talent?
Bode A: So in terms of internally, we always say we not, I, we believe so much in team effort. So today we have a head of people, chief people officer. We have a talent team. So they look at talent.
Bode A: We have lay down processes for how those talents are interviewed and how they come in onboarding and how they're immersed. Now in terms of the ecosystem, I think one of the things that. For me, I would've wanted was when I was coming in, I had mentors, a lot of mentors, people that had worked in KPMG and had left.
Bode A: I spoke with them, oh, I'm trying to do this, [00:28:00] but none of them had gone to a startup. They had gone to GSK, they had gone to oil companies. They, so I was going to meet them, but they were like, giving me their own perspective, but nothing from a startup. I felt like I didn't have that welcome team for my own level and my own experience to say, okay, this is what you look out for. Don't do this, don't do that. So at a point I was now like, okay, because I love to teach. Teaching is my own thing. I got involved with Techstars last year. I had their number.
Bode A: They called me in, I spoke to the founders and this year I mentored about four companies personally. I worked with them very closely, just helping them to build their plans and just letting them know, you've seen it, you're like, no, don't go this way. I do that very actively.
Bode A: I'm also going to be part of that for the next year. What I was also able to do was. Just work with hackathons, we did quite a number of hackathons. I was judge on a lot of, picking talent, all [00:29:00] of those things.
Dotun O: Bode you and I catch up regularly sometimes over dinner, and we try to compare notes and I know there are a few things that you're passionate about and one of them is just mentoring the next level of
Dotun O: and I wanted to just touch on that. People know as Bode as COO, but what is, what they're so passionate about to see happen beyond just work?
Bode A: I think for me just having gone through this experience feel like there's a lot that, my experience with Techstars last year really showed me that some of the things that you take for granted that people know as a founder people don't actually know. If you look at the age, average age of founders, now they're so young, right?
Bode A: A lot of them in their twenties, they have all these bright ideas. They like to create and all of that. I think there's a lot that also needs to be done in saying, even as you go to the market, this is how you think about, your processes. This is how you think about risk, this is how you think about compliance, these are you think about, and the ones I mentored, it was amazing. [00:30:00] Just simple things around how you even look at your value chain, right? What you focus on enterprise versus SME versus working, just sitting with them and hashing that out and the kind of light bulb that comes. They have all the ideas, they're very smart, they want to take the market.
Bode A: So having that forum where. They can learn and avoid some of the pitfalls. Digital innovation, disruption, all these things are good. People say, oh, it is not the traditional way of doing things, but if you're helping people , to invest money, there's still some investment principles that you need to know.
Bode A: So you need somebody that understands treasury, somebody that understands investment banking, that has done it over and over again, that will help you manage this thing effectively. The process is still the process. If you're reconciling, you have to understand how to reconcile. If you're doing disputes, you have to be able to do disputes.
Bode A: If you're moving money, there are things you have to be able to adhere to. So there are some fundamental things that you can never shy away from. Who is teaching them? Those are some of the [00:31:00] things that I'm very passionate about.
Dotun O: My last question to you is about your previous experience of using data to guide CEOs or banks to make decisions. How relevant is that now for startup, especially when you are just creating new market? It's easy for you to get data on banking because everybody's interacting with the bank, and so you can get their customers everywhere. But for Flutterwave five years ago, there were very few customers who know Flutterwave or think that they can use Flutterwave, we can translate that to other sectors.
Dotun O: Or other startup founders who are building something new where their customers are not well defined or the customers don't know that they need this product. First all, how can they gather data to understand what the customers want and how can they use that data given your experience of gathering data and using it to make decisions?
Bode A: So I remember those days, right?
Bode A: When you want to even start anything, when we start our analysis, if you're helping a bank to do a strategy, you need to do like an industry analysis. If it's a one bank, what does it mean? So you have your KPIs, are you looking at it by profitability, by [00:32:00] assets, and we used to, the first thing, any consultant will tell you they're looking for is Agusto reports, right?
Bode A: Because Agusto reports then will have all the information on all the financials and all of that. so I think there are two things, industry reports, which may be a bit difficult because in our own industry, nobody's pulling together that data yet the banks are compelled to, publish and all of that.
Bode A: But there are extrapolations that you can make. Now the other thing is. is customer insights. When you hear from the customer, I used to use this quote a lot, that you start from the customer and walk backwards, right? If the customer tells you that these are the things, you now pull that back and say, what does this mean in terms of my product?
Bode A: What does it mean for people? What does it mean for process? What does it mean for pricing? What does it mean for, and then you now take it, and when you listen to the customer, customers they're not loyal, right? They'll go to the person. So you have insight on, oh, I'm using your platform, but I'm also using A, B, C, D, E .
Bode A: So you use that information and then you now walk backwards and as you're using your platform your [00:33:00] platform. There's ability for you to ,have a group of people that are also testing other platforms. How easy is their site loading? How fast are they? What's the pricing? How are they doing customer experience?
Bode A: What are their FAQs? So you bring all of that back and also use that. That's another level. The other ultimate level is that data. There's a word we use that is data rich and asset light, right? You are data rich, meaning that you use data to make decisions in everything that you're doing.
Bode A: So quickly we found out that data is not just a, oh, we have a data team, right? But data in terms of customer experience. They use data. If your transactions are failing success and failure, you need data. If you're in project management, you need data. If you're in finance, you need data.
Bode A: If you're selling, you need data. Just making sure that as you bring people that are data scientists, data analysts, they permeate the entire organization collecting data. Yes. And then you're also making sure that as you bring in people. They have this data mindset in terms of how [00:34:00] you are training them and some of the things that you are doing in terms of the mental models.
Bode A: You take data first and say, how will data help you to make some of those decisions? So data is life really it's what you use to make decisions across the organization.
Dotun O: I normally end my podcast with a set of fire round question I ask people and I want to do so here. The first one, in what view did you hold before that you no longer hold?
Bode A: There's no straight line in life and you stay alive to live for tomorrow. You know how, there's no problem, right? That, you know when you sleep over the next day, Life will continue, right? So don't let a problem drive you over the edge because there's always a solution, right?
Bode A: So pull back and say, oh, it's a new day. How do we move forward?
Dotun O: What book are you reading now or that you've read recently that has huge impression on you?
Bode A: Okay, so this last year, I was listening to more podcasts than reading. In fact, I just started making my reading list for [00:35:00] next year. So one of the books is Imagine Africa. I think it was Kingsley Moga wrote imagine Africa.
Bode A: Yeah. So that's one of the books that I've read. Then of course, podcasts around, startups, new inventions, everything that you see on payments, ai, blockchain, those are the things I listen to
Dotun O: I think podcasts is a good way to condense a lot of thought and a lot of lessons from other people. It's a cheat code for people to read. recently I've been listening to books Audible. I managed to read more than 10 book this year, which is a record recently because of that. Thanks a lot, Bode, it is a pleasure having you some of the conversation we had today. We've had a lot of them without mic on and I'm glad that you were able to come within your very busy schedule to give us these
Bode A: Thank you. Thank you so much.