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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Elle: Okay, so there's a
moment in my favorite movie
of all time that I just
need to start with today.
So the movie is Legally
Blonde, of course, because
why wouldn't it be?
and there's a moment in the
movie where El Woods walks
out of the room, humiliated,
underestimated, and she
says, I'll show you how
valuable El Woods can be.
That moment, that moment
was not just about proving
herself in law school or
proving herself or proving
something to an ex-boyfriend.
It's about walking into
any room where people don't
fully understand who you
are or what you bring, and
deciding to change that.
Now for product
marketers, that room is
often your own company.
Now, today's episode is
for every PMM who's been
overlooked, underestimated,
and left out of the room.
And is ready to change that.
If you are not evangelizing
your value as a PMM,
someone else is defining
it for you or worse,
ignoring it all together.
Today's case study is about
making sure that never happens
again, because the truth is
it's not just your product
that needs a spotlight.
It's you, your insights,
your impact, your role, the
value you bring as a PMM.
Too many great pmms stay
invisible, but you, you
are about to learn how to
become known, and there's
no one better to help us
unpack that than Hattie,
the PMM founder of product
marketers.com into leading
voice for pmms everywhere.
Hattie needs no
introduction at all.
Um, but because I love
celebrating pmms, let me
tell you why Hattie is
perfect for this topic.
In short, because
she lives this stuff.
She founded product
marketers.com, one of the
fastest growing hubs for
product marketing, jobs,
insights, and community.
She spent seven years as CEO
of her own company, which
she successfully exited and
went on to become CMO of
a software company all in
her twenties Annette Tempo
Software, a major player
in the Atlassian ecosystem.
She was the sole PMM owning
the SAS division and helping
drive a substantial increase
in a RR during her time there.
with a record like that,
it's no surprise Hattie
has become a go-to voice
for pmms, who want to be
seen for their authentic
expertise, not just messengers
of someone else's vision.
Pmms are often the
ones telling the story.
Hattie shows us how to be the
story by owning your expertise
and sharing it boldly.
Hattie, welcome to the show.
Hatti: Wow, what an intro.
Thank you so much
for having me.
And I love Legally Blonde
too, and having you called
L speaking about L words.
It all makes sense.
L
Elle: right.
So fun fact, my maiden
name is L Wood, so I
just feel like right.
Hatti: my goodness.
Okay.
I love this even more.
We, the PM version
film for You.
Elle: I
know, I know.
I'm just like manifesting
the energy at all times.
Hatti: Do it.
Love it.
Elle: Okay, so before we
dive into the playbook,
let me get some context.
So today we're talking all
about how do become known,
um, how to evangelize your
value internally and build the
credibility across your org.
And obviously you've done that
not only internally, but then
across the entire community
of product marketing.
So, you've lived
this story firsthand.
Tell us more about, about
that entire experience.
Help us set the stage for us.
Hatti: Yeah, for Sure.
So many people don't
actually know my background.
So I had my own company
for six and a half years.
And with that company it
started off as a feminist
body, positive lingerie
brand, which then turned
into an e-commerce play that
housed other people's brands.
And then it ended up being
a complete tech play.
So there I was able
to build out the sales
team, marketing function,
product, team, everything.
It was wild.
We were manufacturing in.
China, Morocco, the uk, we had
our warehouse up in Scotland.
It was an operational like
nightmare, but it taught me so
much about product marketing.
It was like a product
marketing crash
course, honestly.
And then I was a CMO for
two years after the exit of
the company because then,
uh, Tim o the, the CEO
had mentioned, oh, I had
seen you a lot on Twitter.
'cause I was very active on
Twitter at the time, believe
it or not, Al. And he reached
out to me in my DMS and said,
we need to hire you 'cause
you are just like a disruptor.
Because at the time with my
company, I was basically shown
in every major publication
from CNBC to the Telegraph,
the London Evening Standard.
I was in e every major
publication for PR reasons.
'cause we were just
such a major disruptor
in the tech space.
So.
Being in, you know, C-Suite
for literally eight years.
When I then entered into
corporate America when I
was headhunted by actually
a pm who then referred
me internally, I entered
back into the IC role
because everything that
I'd been doing up until
that point L was literally
IC product marketing role.
Even though I was building
out teams, building out
the marketing function, it
was all product marketing
centric, even though I didn't
know the terminology Right.
Like at the time I didn't
know that differentiation and
messaging and all of that.
I was like, how do
we find clients?
Like how do we like compete?
Like how do we speak to them?
Like what the F is going on?
You know?
And that's when I
entered into corporate
America and I'd realized.
Oh, shoot, I have
zero respect here.
No one cares about me or
like my C-Suite or like, they
don't automatically respect
me because I'm in that,
you know, power position.
Right.
So my visibility was
literally, it gone from a
hundred to zero real quick.
And on top of that I
had a micromanager who.
For some reason we clashed
the entire time that he
was at the company and it
caused a lot of stress.
I started grinding
my teeth at night.
I thought I had to
quit the company.
To a point where I had
such like a detrimental
impact on my mental health,
my physical health, I was
like, I think I just have
to quit this organization
'cause I don't understand
what the heck is happening.
'cause me as a person, I, I
remained the same l Right.
I was like the same
Hattie across all the
different organizations.
Right.
All the different roles.
And now that I've entered
into corporate America
in this IC role, I was
like, what has happened?
'cause my knowledge has
remained the same, if
not improved even faster.
But I'm being perceived
as someone who's like an
actual, just like a little
ant who can be downtrodden,
who can be undermined,
who can be pushed to side.
I was like, is it
a sexism thing?
Is it like a even
a racism thing?
Like I don't understand what
Elle: and you're racking
your brain trying to figure
out, how did I get here?
Hatti: Completely.
Like I had to invest in so
much therapy at the time I
had to invest in coaching.
I was like, I don't get it.
And then it was the minute
that I realized, okay, let
me just take a step back.
I love the product
I'm working on.
I love the company.
I do not like my micromanager,
but I like everyone else.
So what is it that
I can control?
And the, the thing that
came straight to my mind,
Al, was the fact that.
Not only wasn't product
marketing understood or
valued, but because I was
the PM, he felt that he could
just like downtrodden me in
order for him to keep growing
in his career as a director.
Right, So after I realized
that, I was like, okay, well
let me, before I quit, let
me see what an impact I can
have within this organization.
But within my role, let me
see this as a growth moment.
Let me see this as a, an
opportunity for me to improve
and see what can happen.
But it was a real shift in
the visibility factor and
the respect factor between
literally being for eight
plus years, super respected,
super visible in terms of
publications worldwide.
I had amazing teams work
with me, and then that was
like the toughest scenario
that I found myself in.
Elle: Yeah.
Wow.
That's in Incre an incredible
story and I, I think that
it's gonna resonate with a
lot of people, I myself have
experienced almost everything
that you described from
grinding your teeth at night
to, needing to invest in some
therapy to try to figure out
what is going on here, and
dealing with an incredibly
toxic, awful manager.
And it's, it's frustrating
'cause then you go from,
having a sense of authority,
especially from where you were
being part of the C-suite, to
not only being in, you know,
a grunt work role, but having
your voice and your value kind
of squashed by someone else.
and you know what's
interesting that I realized
while you were talking about
product marketing, and your
unique background really
illuminated this for me.
and one of the reasons why
I think I personally am so
drawn to product marketing is
that we do so much more than
typical marketing, right?
It's a lot of the strategy
and enabling sales and driving
revenue, and you kind of have
to have an entrepreneurial
spirit to be a really
excellent product marketer.
And so I, it's just so
natural that your background
in entrepreneurship, in
part is what makes you such
a great product marketer.
so just with your overall,
like the shift that you
had to go through, I guess
like what was the task at
hand, that you needed to
do to change that dynamic?
And I guess what
approach did you take?
Hatti: Yeah,
so it was wild because I.
found myself in the first
round of layoffs and
just seeing it happen.
Luckily it didn't impact
me, but I saw my very,
very, very good friend, a
very smart designer, get
let go in the first round.
And it shocked me because
as, as you see on Slack,
when someone is let go,
there's like that blackout
black and white screen that
you see their photos in.
It's kind of like a memorial.
It's really quite sad.
It's really gross.
But I actually saw it
turn, he messaged me and
say, Hey, it was really
nice working with you.
And I was like, what
the heck is happening?
And then I el I saw the screen
turn from colored to black
and white in front of my face.
So I start shaking visibly.
I'm like, what?
What the heck is
happening Right, now?
Because he was so
amazing, so incredible.
Just like the quality
of work that he created.
Was it just second to
none, and then all of
a sudden the town hall
meeting pops up literally
five to 10 minutes later.
In my candor, I'm
shaking visibly because
you know, I live alone.
I don't have rich parents.
I've come from poverty, right,
My dad was a baker.
My mom was a cleaner, and
I don't have anyone to rely
on, so I'm literally the
one who's paying my bills.
So Then after I realized
that it wasn't just the first
round of layoffs that were
happening, but it became too,
it became free up until it
became five before I quit.
After the first round of
layoffs, I realized I need to
make sure 100% undoubtedly,
absolutely guaranteed and
certified that everyone
understands what not only
product marketing is and
the value it has, but
also on a personal level.
What I'm doing, why and
how it's adding value.
Because I was like, I'm not
allowing the man in like
this organization in the
sky or like up above like,
you know, the phrase the man
to decide my career for me
and to derail me or to like
send me out on the street.
Like that's not happening.
No way in heck is
that happening, right.
So I was like, okay, I
need a absolute clearer
understanding of how to
build up my perception
and build it up fast.
Like I need to do this
within weeks to a month.
Like I do not know when the
next round is happening.
Right.
And this was a private
equity backed firm, so who
knows what would happen.
As I mentioned, Al, I was
the exact same person for
eight plus years in C-Suite,
so I had recognized that it
wasn't mainly a me thing.
It might not have even
been a knowledge thing.
It wasn't even a skill thing.
It was purely perception,
purely visibility.
Elle: Yes, exactly.
So then what happened?
Like, what was the result
after you decided that you
need to, to take control over
the visibility and perception?
Hatti: Yeah.
so it was wild because once I
cracked the code on like, how
do I build up my visibility?
How do I make sure
people understand me?
They trust me, they know me.
Maybe even they like me,
but that was like at the
bottom of the barrel.
I was just like, I need people
to understand why I'm there,
the value I'm providing.
I was literally brought
into PE meetings,
like private equity
meetings within a month.
I was known by the
private equity firm.
I was known by the C-Suite
and this was like a
organization of 500 plus
people based out in America.
I was the only UK employee
at the time and I was
working completely remotely.
So, you know, working remote
first has a completely
different set of issues
when it comes to visibility
and you know, building
up nuances and schmoozing
and all of that stuff.
So I had recognized the
result was really fast.
I was brought into
the private meetings
with the stakeholders,
really important ones.
I was getting their air time
and the air coverage that
I really, really required.
So.
It was fascinating because
once I started to see this
happen within my own career,
I was, I was starting to
teach this to the new pmms
who were being brought in
because as the function
was growing in this value
and the PE firm who were
obviously backing the company,
they were now investing
more in product marketing.
So I was teaching
my colleagues how to
do the same thing.
How we can all build up our
perception, our visibility,
make sure that we're really
brought in, we're a key
stakeholder at the table.
Right.
And even like I was managing
up for my manager and making
sure that she was always
brought in, whether she
was the CMO, the vp, like I
had very different managers
at very different times.
Right.
But I was making sure
that she was brought in.
Yeah,
Because it's one thing to be
a woman in tech, but to be a
woman in C-suite, in executive
pres, like executive level
in tech, I'm just like, I'm
here to support you, girl.
Like fucking crush it.
But what was fascinating,
Elle was like off the back
of it, off of like learning
what I did in my career,
but also for my colleagues.
Other pmms started to
reach out to me because I
started to post on LinkedIn.
I was sharing my learnings
and they needed guidance,
and I didn't actually
want to be a coach.
I'll be real l like, the
reason I started posting on
LinkedIn and started building
myself up was not because
of narcissistic reasons.
It was purely because I wanted
to secure myself, my career
and make sure that people
understood what I was doing.
So me, me posting on
LinkedIn was literally.
Also a route to do that.
But there was a changing
point when I started to
realize, huh, I think I
am destined for more, I'm,
I think I'm destined to
potentially be a coach for
other pmms, was the fact that
I had a lady based out here
in London reach out to me.
Her name's Rice, and she dmd
me and she said, I'm under the
weight of the world right now.
I, and I dunno how to
battle my way out of this.
She said that stakeholders
don't understand what
she does her value.
She's not respected whatsoever
as a young woman in tech.
And I was like,
my goodness, okay.
I cannot.
Like, I cannot even fathom me
gatekeeping the information
that I had learned.
So I taught her everything.
And within the space of just
a year el, she literally
turned her career around
from being not respected.
Undervalued, underpaid
to now she's working
at a major corporation.
She's making killer money.
She's so respected and she
is loving life to a point
where I actually bumped
into her and her boyfriend,
and her boyfriend was
like, thank you so much.
Like, I was like, I
was like, of course.
Like, hey, like I'm here
to help you girlfriend.
Like, she's great.
Right.
It's great.
And that's, that was the only
reason then l that I created.
Product marketers.com because,
and also the profitable
PMM challenge because I
want to get people to their
goal within five days.
What I did with Rice in
nine to 12 months, which
she started to see a shift
within three months of them
packaged up into five days.
Can you imagine?
So, yeah.
So I'm just like, I'm not
gatekeeping this anymore.
It's had like in
insane shifts, insane
breakthroughs in pmms lives,
Elle: I love it.
I have goosebumps.
We need to dive
more into this.
So, I wanna take this big
experience that you had
yourself and then even saw
it again, repeated with rice,
where as a product marketer,
you're in this position
where I think it's, it's.
Exacerbated by having
a terrible manager.
But even when you don't have
a terrible manager, it can
be very easy for product
marketers to be stuck in a
non-visible, I don't wanna
say role, but I, I guess like
function, the function of
product marketing can be very
easily non-visible because
we don't own a metric, right?
So we're not like reporting
pipeline, like our, our,
counterparts in maybe like a
demand gen type role would be.
so let's take that
experience and let's
turn it into a playbook
for product marketers.
So let's say I'm a PM,
maybe similar to Rice.
Who wants to evangelize my
value for my organization?
What's the first step I need
to take to start that journey?
Hatti: Yeah, for sure.
I love that you're breaking
this down because Rice was
the first client, but I've
had hundreds since and it's
always worked for them.
Yeah.
So let's get deep into this.
I'm super
excited.
so step one is realizing
if you focus on not only
the quality and delivery
of the tactical work,
but the communication
that goes along with it.
So the quality and the
delivery of the communication
that will no longer allow you
to be seen as an assistant
or a purely tactical PMM.
And it's super key.
This is why every client
I have, I always recommend
they, they take at least one.
Improv comedy class.
It sounds wild, but I've
taken so many improv comedy
courses, which I recommend
to my higher level clients
who are literally 10
plus years in the game.
I have a couple who are 30
plus years in the game and I'm
like, just take a full eight
week course because you're
going to learn the art of
communication and how to think
off the top of your dome and
also remove the pressure and
the stress that comes with it.
Because here's the thing, if
you learn how to forcefully
find opportunities within
your organization to speak
to what you've done and how
you've contribute to projects,
'cause as LY said, we don't
own specific pipeline metrics.
We require other people
that we work with in
order to action the work
that we then create, and
then the results come in.
So therefore, we actually
need to be a really
good communicator.
We need to be a
good negotiator.
We need to be a
good persuader.
For other people, then that's
going to have like the step
one unlock and if, and then
the next stage from that is
figure out your personal ICP.
Now, what do I mean by that?
Usually you think of ICP
as your organization's,
ICP, who you're trying to
attract for your customers,
but who is your customer?
Like ideal customer
profile within the
organization internally,
that's super key.
Elle: Yes, I love that.
Okay, so how do you
do that exactly?
I mean, like what are
some examples of an ICP?
For A PMM?
You know, I think the obvious
ones that I can think of are
like product or sales, but how
should PMM start to determine
who their internal ICP is?
Hatti: Yeah.
a lot of people start with
those departments, but
actually it truly isn't
most of the of the time,
which is super surprising.
That's why a lot of pmms
will catch themselves on the
flywheel of providing sales
with a bunch, or providing
product with a bunch, and
they don't see their personal
career moved forwards.
Your real decision maker, your
real ICP, it might not even be
your manager, but it's about
finding who fundamentally
decides your career.
Who fundamentally
decides your bonuses?
Who fundamentally
decides your promotion?
When it comes down to
making cuts, who is
deciding who makes cuts?
Is it actually your CEO or
is it someone in his or her
ear telling them what to do?
Is it a PE firm?
Is it a VC fund?
Like you have to get
down to the root of this.
Once you find out the
root, and if you really
make sure that you are
on their radar, that is
your true ICP for your.
Your career and when it comes
down to it, I'm a big fan and
a big proponent of own your
career where, where you can,
we can control what we can.
Right.
And if you get down
to that, that is like
Who your true ICP is.
It might not be your manager,
it might not even be the
CEO, it's about who, when
it comes down to it makes
your, the decisions when it
comes down to your career.
Elle: Who has the power and
influence, and typically
that's someone who's hanging
onto a budget or they have
some kind of authority or
power in the organization.
Very commonly a VP and
above type of person, but
may not be, may not be.
okay, so let's say,
getting back to our
playbook, I've identified
who my ICP is, right?
what's step two?
What do I do with
this information?
Now,
Hatti: I, have a question
for you, Al. Have you ever
thought to yourself that
if you just keep doing
great work, eventually
someone will notice?
Elle: I think that people
around me may notice, but
I don't necessarily think
anyone's gonna do anything
with that information,
Hatti: Exactly.
You're exactly Right.
Because I quickly
realized that great work
doesn't speak for itself.
People do.
And sometimes I feel like
I need to repeat that.
It's
not about the great work.
Great work doesn't
speak for itself.
People do.
And realizing that great
work doesn't speak for itself
means that who internally
can speak on behalf of you.
You know, outside of your
little circle who knows
how much work you do, who
knows how much effort you're
putting in, who knows how
careful you are and how much
of an empath you are when
it comes to your customers
and how you approach work.
But who is it that can speak
on your behalf positively,
who can share in the right
way and then find the metrics
that are associated with it.
Elle: Right
Hatti: that's mainly step two.
Elle: Yes.
Yes.
And one thing that I found
successful in doing that
in my career is anywhere
I start somewhere new.
I'll create, and this is just
an exercise I do for myself.
I'll create a quick
stakeholder map, and in
that stakeholder map I'll
figure out, who do I need to
communicate how often and what
do I need to communicate up
to them and to what depth?
And that in turn determines,
you know, if I do a, a monthly
update or a weekly update or
a quarterly update and what
that person cares about, it's
kind of, it's very similar
actually to like an ICP
persona buyer team exercise.
But it's for me and
it's like, okay, here's
the GM of the business.
What does that
person care about?
Here's the, you know,
my VP of product.
What does that
person care about?
Here's the CMO.
What does that
person care about?
And as I'm mapping out
these various stakeholders,
what are, what are the
metrics these individuals
are responsible for?
What are things
they care about?
What are things
they're tracking?
And how does my role in
my job influence those?
And that determines then
how often I should be,
communicating my impact, the
value of me and my team up.
So I'm curious, like, is an
exercise like that anything
that you've seen or done, or
do you have other examples
of what maybe that looked
like for you when you
were in the thick of it?
Hatti: Yeah.
for sure.
So you are 100% correct.
And if I was to add to this,
it would be the fact that
a lot of people get hung
up on the product marketing
charter and they think that
that's like the holy grail.
So they'll be like, oh, I
created a product marketing
charter with everything.
And they'll feel like,
okay, well this is the
silver bullet that will
solve all of my issues.
And it's like, No, no.
way, dude.
Like it's gonna sit in
the archives of some
random place that no one
else will check it out.
And and you've spent like
hours creating this thing
that might not even be looked.
It's just a waste of time.
But when I say to my
clients, it's a waste of
time unless you use it
as part of a roadshow.
Now it's effective, right?
So again, it's the quality
of the work that you're
creating, but also with
the communication aspect.
The minute you remove the
communication aspect, people
will not go looking to
understand or consume this
bit of charter in a way that
you think that they will.
And I'm a big fan of
moving away from egocentric
product marketing.
Whenever I Google something
and I see an article.
Written on behalf of
product marketers.
And it's so utopian and
it's so egocentric, and it's
like if you do X, Y, Z, you
will now be, you know, part
of a unicorn company and
everyone will respect you.
And here's your trajectory
for your career.
In five years time you'll
be earning X, Y, Z. And I'm
like, you have made this
out of literally thin air.
And when it comes down to
like seeing this level of,
okay, well if you just create
a charter, everyone will
understand product marketing
and everyone will promote you.
And how great will that be?
And it's like, dude,
you don't understand the
nuance of the stakeholders.
We deal with the troubling
people in tech, in, in the
developers, in the product
team in blah, blah, blah.
So the pairing up the
of the product marketing
charter with the roadshow
is the killer combination.
Elle: Yes.
I love that.
Okay, so getting back to our
playbook, we've got step one
of, identifying your internal
ICP and then step two within
those ICPs, figuring out
which one is gonna be your,
who's gonna be your champion,
uh, whether that's through
a stakeholder map and not,
you can't, not absolutely.
Everybody who's an ICP
will be a champion, right?
so figuring out which one is
gonna go in the rooms where
you are not in and speak
that value on your behalf
because of all the hard
work that you've been doing
to communicate your value.
then what happens, I guess
what's in step three?
Hatti: Yeah.
step three?
is a really, really good one.
And what I would add to what
you said is if a ICP person
is not a champion, it's
about making them a champion.
Like it's important
to manage up and to
make them a champion.
Yeah.
So it's not only just like
seeing who currently can
speak on your behalf and
who can validate what you're
doing, but also if you
are seeing that there are
blocks there in the person
who basically decides your
career at this organization,
you need to unblock.
Like it.
And there has to be process
in place in order to do
that, which leads to step
three, which is creating a
system that is on autopilot
to build up your visibility
and your perception.
Because it's one thing to
do a one-off piece of, you
know, roadshow once when
you first joined the company
and then you've left it and
now you're free years deep
and there are new hires
being made and they don't
understand what it is you do
and they're teaching you in
a really disrespectful way.
Versus if you make sure that
your visibility and your
perception was on autopilot
in a system that you can
create, that's how you do it.
So it's not just like a
one-off, one and done piece of
work, but it's something that
you're constantly building.
Because I would presume
that the function of
product marketing is always
changing, especially now
with AI and our role is
becoming less tactical.
It's becoming more
strategic, and therefore
it's even more important to
validate, well, why is it.
Here's a question I
always ask my clients
is like, we're always
thinking with my clients
in product marketers.com.
I'm always saying to them,
we need to always justify
why you are worth over six
figures, like always, and
how we, how can we always
build upon your career on
everything that you've done?
All of your skill sets at
all of them are so talented,
so incredibly intelligent.
Even the people that
you have on your podcast
l have just been like
groundbreaking people, right?
So it's about like how do you
validate that and creating a
system is the way to do it,
because hard skills is what
product marketing is told to
own, but not communicating.
The value that we are
creating is really
doing us a disservice.
So not seeing as the
communication piece as a
one and done thing or being
like, oh, we just launched
a go to market that's done.
Move on to the next.
But how can you communicate
the improvements on it?
How can you communicate
the, I don't know, like
how you are evolving it?
And then just make sure
that you are always front
of mind when it comes to it.
Elle: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like communication
is so key in part of
that, making that, um,
repeatable autopilot system.
Um, and I'm really eager
to hear more about that.
So, uh, which I, I don't
wanna get too ahead into,
the content that we've got.
So let's do a quick recap.
We've got step one of,
figuring out the, ICP
step two of determining
the internal champions
and making sure that you.
Unblock any potential
champions that are part of
that, and making sure that
your impact is seen and
measured by those champions.
And then step three is
building that repeatable
system to communicate
your value, which is,
so that's just such a
powerful mind shift in how
we do product marketing.
so then coming back to our,
my one last question for you
on this topic, and I guess
for any PMM who's out there
listening and trying to build
credibility and influence in
their org, what is your final
piece of advice as they're
trying to create that system
and build out their champions
and identify their ICPs?
Hatti: Yeah.
this is a crucial piece of
advice that I would give.
And I have a lot of male
clients, which always
surprises people, and I tell
them because they're always
like, Hattie, communication,
well, how is that important?
Or, oh, being authentic,
how is that important?
They're always, and I'm like,
dude, please just hear me out.
It's not wooo stuff.
It's super important.
But one thing that I've
recognized amongst pmms when
they first join me to when
they leave or when they're
like six months deep into
our coaching is they will
start off kind of acting.
Like as a professional
being like, oh, I need
to act a specific way,
or I need to pretend to
be someone that I'm not.
And the biggest unlocks that
I've had in my clients in
terms of them speeding up,
the rate of them getting
to their personal goals
in their career has been
when they've relinquished
the control and said, I'm
going to fully lean into
being me unapologetically.
And it sounds very woo woo,
but it's actually not if
you really think about it,
because if you don't spend
the time changing yourself.
Putting yourself into
a completely different
version of you.
You're basically, if you
do that, you remove your
complete edge, you remove your
unfair advantage, you remove
the gifts that you've been
given because I have a real
world understanding of we.
As pmms, we as humans
in general, we are given
specific strengths in all
each of us that allows us to
be reliant on one another.
That's how we can
work as an ecosystem.
It's like systems thinking
to how we in tech are built.
And also when it comes to
building teams, which I've
done multiple times, I'm
always thinking about, okay,
well what are the different
strengths that I can have
within my team members?
And how are, can they
compliment one another?
So when I see pmms come to
me and they're like, oh, I
read this article on, you
know, X, Y, Z, like habits of
a good pm m, or how I should
be, or the skill sets to
have, and it's the antithesis
of their superpowers, of
their unfair advantage.
I'm like, you need to cut
that out as quickly as
possible and lean into what
gives you your strength.
Lean into what is your unfair
advantage and bring that
to the table because that
will actually be your unlock
and your key to speeding
up your success factor.
And I actually
break this down in.
My profitable PMM challenge
and I break it down because
it's interesting where I've
retracted all different
seniority from pmms who
are literally one year in
the game to 30 plus years
in the game from different
industries across payment
to pure SaaS and more
in different geographies
from Columbia to the us.
It's wild.
Like the breadth of different
people That come into a
profitable PMM M challenge.
And it's fascinating because
I can feel and see the shift
in the pmms where at the
start of the week they're
acting a specific way.
Like, oh, this is what a
professional PMM acts like.
And towards the end,
everyone's like open and
vulnerable and they're
like, my goodness,
this was like therapy.
But equally, I'm now
strengthened, I'm motivated,
I now feel like I can own
my career as opposed to
being like a bystander
and watching my career
fly before my eyes because
of some, someone above.
It's so fun.
but also it's just so
groundbreaking that.
I truly believe if people
do the internal work,
that's why I'm a huge fan
of therapy in my own life.
And I, I'm like,
I recommend it.
If my clients need to do
it, I'm like, maybe you
might wanna think about it.
but delving deep into,
well, what is it that
makes you unique?
And therefore how can
you bring that and like,
strengthen that muscle and
make sure that you don't
allow that to whi away in
your career, but you use it
as your superpower should be.
Elle: Absolutely.
I love that resonates so much
with me, and it's a lesson
that it took me a while to
learn early in my career.
I am very obviously
a high energy and
enthusiastic person.
And being female, being a
woman, being very feminine,
it's, it was hard earlier
on in the B2B tech world,
and I was very quickly,
very often stereotyped.
Um, and it was, it was just
hard for me to try to figure
out how, what I should, what
I should do with this, this
energy and enthusiasm because
I couldn't turn it off.
Hatti: Right.
Elle: So I had to learn,
well, how do I use this
actually as a superpower?
And how to use it to
influence and motivate people.
and I was able to do that,
but it took me time to not
be stereotyped as, you know,
someone who's airheaded and
not, not competent, right?
I had to prove I had to
prove my competencies
along with my enthusiasm,
um, and my high energy.
And that took time to do.
but it's an ongoing,
management of my superpowers.
So I'm curious, if I were
to join the profitable
PMM challenge today,
what could I expect as
part of the experience?
Hatti: Yeah.
I think you would honestly
find it groundbreaking out.
I would love to have you as
part of the challenge, because
you are able to really go in
deep into the systems thinking
behind everything that's
done, because I think a lot of
product marketing content is
always around the end result.
It's like, oh, create this.
PMM charter or create
this, you know, breakdown
of the P, Here's an asset.
here's a framework,
here's the final thing.
When actually I go in deep.
Like actually deep.
Elle: It's all about
the, the, the system
and the process, not
necessarily the end result.
Hatti: Exactly.
It's like the context in which
everything else is built.
And I do that for my clients
in terms of if you want to
learn how to absolutely crush
it in your career, take the
challenge and L you would
be able to do that because
you are undermined for being
feminine for, you know, you
were seen as like the airhead
people, and I'm telling you,
the pmms who've been in my
challenge so far, they've
literally come with these.
These topics and the men
in my challenge have said,
I faced workplace bullies.
I have dealt with being
undermined yet because I found
this unique trait in US PMM
specifically, which is we are
majority on the whole empaths.
We actually care about
our customer, we care
about doing good work,
and therefore it gets used
against our advantage by
people who want to use it
for their own advantage.
A lot of pmms that I speak
to and have helped are
typically introverted.
I'm actually an introvert,
believe it or not.
And I am an introvert who
acts extrovert in order to
get the job done and do what
I am meant to do on this
planet, uh, by God's well.
And, I recognize that a lot
of introverts are pushed
over by the extroverts.
And again, whether the
extroverts lie, usually
in sales, usually in
product, usually they're
very up their own bums
and we need to face that.
So the challenge, it
really goes in deep.
It doesn't just.
Test you on the product
marketing knowledge you have.
You literally don't have
to learn anything else.
It's All about me saying,
show up as you are with
the knowledge that you
have, you have all the
skill sets already.
You have all the
knowledge already.
This is about now learning
how to unpack it so we can go
in deep into the core of you.
I will give you homework every
single day for you to do.
Every day builds upon one
another, and by the end of
the week, you will feel your
life and your career changed.
And a hundred percent out
of a hundred percent so far.
Does that even make sense?
Like a hundred percent like
te whatever, a hundred like
I'm, so it Doesn't matter.
Like I'm excited.
Yeah.
Like a hundred percent
of people so far of
PMM so far have been
like, that was insane.
And at the start of the
week, they're like, Hattie,
We think you are crazy.
But by the end of it.
they're like, I see
why you did that now.
And I'm like, yes, thank
you for trusting me.
so.
honestly, al, like I would
love to have you in the
profitable PMM challenge.
You would
be
like,
Elle: be so fun.
Thank you.
So shameless plug, for anyone
out there who's curious,
check out the PMM challenge.
Um, yeah, 100%.
Hatti: 100%.
out, hundred percent out.
Like, I'm gonna make that.
Elle: Yes, I love it.
This was such a helpful case
study on how pmms can bring
their value to the table
and be seen known in their
organization and go from being
underestimated and undervalued
to being appreciated
and having their careers
just absolutely take off.
So thank you so much Hattie,
for showing us all the work
that goes into that and how
pmms can get started today.
alright, so that closes the
first segment of our show.
Now I'd like to move on
to the second segment
of our show, which is
the messaging critique.
So if anyone has listened
before, you know, this is
the part where, um, Hattie
and I as product marketing
experts get to analyze
real world marketing.
And the fun part is Hattie
gets to choose the company
that we take a look at.
Um, before we get started,
just gonna go over some
really quick ground rules.
we're gonna pick a company or
Hattie has picked a company,
that we have an understanding
of the customer on, or that
she has an understanding
of the customer on.
'cause great product
marketing, no, you know, you
can't just pick a company
or critique messaging
on a company where you
don't know the customer.
So, that's how we
select the company.
And, uh, first Hattie's gonna
tell me something that she's
loving about the messaging.
Second, something that she
wishes the PMM would've done
differently or considered.
And then finally, we're
gonna do a quick, fun,
creative brainstorm on what
the PMM can do to take their
messaging to the next level.
again, all about learning
and refining our craft.
No negativity.
Just a thoughtful,
constructive critique.
All right, so Hadie, please
give us the unveil, like who
is the, who's the company
that you've selected today?
Hatti: Yeah, the company I've
selected is called Guide Flow.
Elle: Okay, I'm gonna
open their website.
I was so excited.
I took a peek earlier and I
squealed 'cause it's so cute.
So for everyone who's
listening, it's guide flow,
G-U-I-D-E-F-L-O w.com.
And it's so cute when you
go to their website, there's
like a little animated like
it, they look like toys
Hatti: Yeah, toy Ducks
Elle: probably, yeah,
they're so cute.
They're like going down like
a little slide and it like,
immediately before I even
read anything on the page,
I, it brings me joy just
Hatti: it, does
Elle: And This is like, it,
it's just like, it really
does it probably, I am in
a season of life where I
have a three and a half
year old and a 16 month old.
So like.
Child play is very much
part of my every day.
So it's probably,
Hatti: Love it.
Elle: Hattie, please tell
me what does Guide Flow do?
Hatti: Yeah.
so they do interactive demos
and I've heard about them
because firstly, two of their
sales guys came to one of
my events here in London.
'cause I throw PMM mini
conferences every month.
And I was like, what the
heck are you guys doing here?
And they were so
fun and so bubbly.
And I was like,
oh, interesting.
Okay, I'll check you out.
And then, uh, like what was
interesting was I learned that
a lot of pmms are switching
to them as a, as a company.
Yeah.
So I was like, okay,
I need to check you
guys
out.
Elle: out.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So, um, interactive
demos, I love it.
Which by the way, I think
my la one of my last guests,
recent guests also shared a,
it wasn't interactive, maybe
it was like a self-guided
demo platform kind of tool.
So I'm really curious to
see how this one differs
and maybe if they play in
like, not like the same
market, but like cater to
maybe a different, um, ICP.
So I'll be really
curious about that.
So who do you think is
guidepost target customer?
Hatti: Yeah, So they've
made it pretty clear that
their target customer
are marketers in general,
product marketers, customer
support, sales training
and enablement products,
partnerships and more.
But I like the fact that
they've been clear about
who they're going after.
Yeah.
Elle: So just a quick
question for clarification.
Is it saying that like,
is guide flow, is it
for a company to arm
their internal employees
with interactive demos?
so that they can like go
demo something for a customer
or prospect at any time?
Or is it for a company
to create for any
customer to be able to
do an interactive demo?
Hatti: It's primarily
to my understanding for
an organization to show
interactive demos on their
website, but also the CS
teams and the sales teams can
do their own demos on behalf
of customers and support
them that way as needed.
Yeah.
So I think it's like a mix
of using it on the website,
but also directing customers
directly either through a
link, you know, personalized
link and they'll be able to
watch demos when they need
support, which is pretty
cool.
It's, it's cool.
that it like taps
both sides, right?
Elle: I like, yeah, I agree.
Um, okay.
So what are you loving
about their messaging?
Hatti: I, because I've
used the product, I
actually delved into it.
'cause I'm always up for like
using new products, especially
if they're for pmms.
Like their product
is genuinely, truly
beautiful, Elle.
And what I then saw in
like the messaging is even
though like I love their
cute and playful nature,
like you mentioned with the
ducks, but I'm like, they
are underselling themselves.
I think that was what was
most surprising to me.
The messaging is just
truly underselling
themselves massively.
and the use of like the AI
based, I was like, like the
messaging isn't speaking to
what like really drove me
in the product and I, Yeah.
So it's really fascinating
because I'm like, they do a
great job of showing that.
You know, their tool
is used by insanely
great organizations.
And the demo, the, the
interactive demo that
they actually show
is fantastic and the
breakthrough and everything.
But I'm like, I think you
could go harder, dude.
Like, I just think you
can go so much harder.
because most of the
interactive demos that I've
seen, they do obviously
leave, like link into it
speeds up, you know, you
can do it in seconds and not
days and you know, you can
build one in five minutes.
But because I've used their
tool, it feels quality.
Like I don't, I don't know.
It's like that, that
feeling is there.
And I'm a big fan of anything
that's quality from it,
from like the pens that I
Elle: I hands Down, I'm so
sick of like garbage stuff
that's really low quality.
Hatti: Yeah, no, over that.
And especially when you're
at a specific seniority,
you're just like, I just want
to be surrounded by beauty.
Like I need to, and I'm like,
I don't see any of the aha
moments that I had in their
Elle: Ah,
Hatti: Yeah.
Elle: Okay.
So when I go to their website,
it says, show don't tell.
Create AI based interactive
demos to, and then
they've got this like,
kind of like a carousel
of changing use cases.
It's like, upgrade
your customer support,
supercharge your sales.
I'm waiting for the
next one to come train
your team in seconds
onboard your customers.
Right?
So it's changing,
it's, it's changing in
all these use cases.
And I kind of feel like, I
mean, I don't wanna get too
much into your critique,
but I kind of feel like.
They're trying
to be everything
everywhere, all at once.
Like they're focusing
on all these different
use cases, which I think
they're gonna have very
different set of problems.
And by doing that, you're
not, to your point, telling
a good story on any one
particular use case.
Like, yeah, sure, your
product could be used to
train your internal sales
teams, but let's focus on
just converting customers.
Then you can expand to some
of those other use cases.
I, I, and I mean this,
like for, this is obviously
like some kind of small
company or startup,
Hatti: Yeah.
Elle: about that?
Hatti: I would agree because
they have their U cases really
clearly defined in their tab
section, but the homepage,
I feel like if they speak
to the fact that, you know,
for example, I know that
pmms that I've spoken to.
are literally switching
from other interactive
demos to GE Flow And I'm
like, well, tell me more.
Like why et cetera.
'cause I'm always curious.
I always want to be
at the forefront.
'cause I, I coach so
many pmms, so I want to
recommend tools that are
actually good, Right.
And I'm like, my goodness,
their homepage could
be so much more like
Sassier and Boulder.
You know, they can say,
Hey, you've heard about
all the other interactive
demos on the market.
We are the one that everyone
is switching to because we
are like, if you are sick of,
you know, low quality buggy,
Elle: Yes.
Hatti: product.
Like come.
Sell the problem.
Exactly.
Like lean in and
be bold with it.
And especially because I
met, like I said, two of the
guys at my, like two of the
sales guys at my, um, event,
and they are French and they
are very, very charismatic,
like full of personality.
So funny.
I'm like, it doesn't
translate like the culture
of the company from those
two guys that I met are
just so down to earth.
So like up for fun.
And it, it just feels like,
like you said, it feels
to samey, samey, you know,
it says like AI based,
interactive demos to,
and then it speaks to all
the different use cases.
And I'm like, do like.
The show don't tell for sure.
But I would be
like fully bold.
Like we are the new
company on the block.
Yes, We're a startup.
Like just lean into
what it is they are.
And this is basically
similar to what we were
speaking to earlier, Elle
around like, if you have
your unique differentiator
and your personal
superpower and you're unfair
advantage, lean into it.
Do not hide it.
And I think the homepage,
at least what's on the, at
the top of the fold that we
are looking at, it doesn't
highlight the real true
differentiator to me at least.
Elle: Right.
Yes, exactly.
And I was just gonna
say as I'm kind of just
clicking through their
website, and I don't wanna
critique websites, right?
'cause that's not what
product marketers do, although
we can give some feedback
around how they're telling
the story on the website.
I just feel like when I first
landed on the page, I said I
am, I immediately felt joy.
And then it started to fade
because it seemed like you
said like, oh, this is just
another same old, same old
AI powered interactive demo
tool that's probably some
cheap, like they made the
code with AI in a week and
it's, you know, hasn't been
versioned and it hasn't been
tested and, you know, just not
that joyful experience that,
that I was hoping to have.
But it sounds like the product
really does give you that.
Hatti: That's it.
Exactly.
It's, again, it's
a perception play.
It kind of links
nicely to what we, we
were speaking about
earlier.
Yeah.
It's a perception play.
Again, it's like being a
fantastic PMM, but your
perception is completely off.
And it's the same thing
here because, and I, this is
why I want to use it as an
example 'cause I've been in
the product l I've like, I've
been in the product and I have
test out so many different
interactive tools that I know
that this is quality stuff.
Like I was like
super impressed.
It has like this
Scandinavian feel to it.
Like if anyone knows
about Scandinavian like
furniture and like the
aesthetic.
yeah.
And when I was, is
so good quality.
And when I was in the product
I was like, my goodness,
I was, I was like, this
feels like Scandinavia.
This feels like good quality.
stuff.
And when I saw the
homepage, I was like.
No, like, it just, the
messaging can be improved.
Like there are, there is like
a ton of room for improvement.
So I think you are right
Elle, in terms of if they
keep, for example, their
playful element, like the
playfulness, which again was
like this little ducks thing.
It it is actually very much
in line with the vibe of the
guys that I met in real life.
Um, they were very
friendly, very funny.
Yeah.
They were just like,
where should we go?
Should we go to like pizza?
Should we do steak?
And I was just like, I will
give you any recommendation.
You like, dude, because
you guys are funny.
yeah.
So I think like, like
putting the playful nature
with the fact that they
have personality, they're
extremely good quality.
They're used by all of
these amazing organizations.
And just sharing more
of that take and I would
say go bold with it.
I just, yeah, I,
I would, I would
Elle: I love it.
Yes.
Oh, okay.
Guide flow.
We love the product, we
love your playfulness,
and we want to see more
bold, playful messaging.
Hatti: Yeah, for sure.
Big
Elle: Okay.
But shout out, you guys
are on the right track.
Um, everyone, I'm, we gotta
iterate along the way.
so Hattie, one thing I always
try to do on this podcast is
to make room for gratitude.
Um, so I'd like to move on to
our, a moment of gratitude.
Uh, because in product
marketing, none of
us get here alone.
Obviously, you have a ton of
clients who relied on you to,
um, help reshape and reform
their experience as a PMM.
And I know myself, I've had
so many mentors from people
who didn't even realize
that they were mentoring
me to direct managers who
were making it an effort,
like to actively mentor me.
So, I wanna thank you for
your time and effort to
do this episode today and
to share your expertise.
so thank you so much for being
here and, and doing that.
and then before we wrap up,
I wanna turn it over to you
and, um, we'd love to hear
any pmms that have helped
shape who you are and the
amazing Hattie, the PMM.
Um, give them a shout out
Hatti: Yeah, no, thank you so
much for having me, Al. This
has been an absolute pleasure
and I want to shout out
my previous PMM colleagues
who joined Tempo after I was
brought in, and they've been
exceptional people, like
truly, and I've actually
made lifelong friendships
with a few of them and.
Just working with exceptional
pmms really allowed me to
uplevel myself in ways that
I had no idea that I could
do in a short space of time.
right.
It is just, it's just been
such a blessing, especially
since I had that micromanager
who really started off
the, the sequence of events
and the adventure that
I had there into a way
that I thought wouldn't
end positive positively.
But the pmms that I've worked
with directly have been
exceptional, including my
manager, even the VPs, like
just, my goodness, I have
such good friends now, out
of it, and I want to shout
out some, like Eric Holland.
I want, like, he's, he's
amazing, you know, part of,
we are not marketers and
he's just, he's just been
such a good friend and yeah.
I just, I, love that man to
Elle: I, I'm a big fan and
uh, obviously a big fan of
the show and everything.
Hatti: Yeah.
Um, yeah, he's just been
such a big supporter.
I think we vibe on a
completely different level
where we understand in the
space of product marketing
being like an influencer.
I guess a lot of people think
we come from a place of like
narcissism or a place of Yeah.
Or a place of like
wanting to, I don't know
be in the spotlight when
actually what we're truly
doing is just like what you
are doing Al you're putting
other pmms at the, at the
forefront and at the spotlight
and trying to move the
entire product marketing, you
know, division or industry
forward beyond what is like
the very generic utopian
Elle: It's the I
can't gate keep this.
Right.
Exactly.
I hear an amazing product
marketing story and I'm like,
people need to hear this.
It's
Hatti: Exactly.
Yeah.
And your podcast
has been amazing.
That's why I'm just like, so
grateful you've had me on,
because I've been like a huge
champion of product marketing
Elle: you.
Hatti: Yeah.
Because
what You are doing.
I really have.
Yeah, because I think, I
dunno if You remember, but
I reached out to you when
you announced like your
first episode.
Elle: know.
And I was so flattered
and just beyond.
I was giddy,
Hatti: Aw, stop.
I was giddy to speak to you.
'cause I'm, I'm a huge
fan of people owning their
life, of leading into their
superpowers, of doing whatever
the heck you wanna do.
If you wanna create a
podcast, go for it, girl.
Like, I'm here for you,
I'm backing you, you know,
I want you to thrive.
Yeah.
And I think what you've
done has been exceptional.
So, you know, I want to
thank you for being a
absolute game changing
person who's leading the way.
You know, you are bringing
these like amazing quality
conversations to product
marketing and it's just
been groundbreaking.
So Yeah.
I want to Thank you.
I want to Thank a couple
friends who have become.
Like they were like PMM
friends, but now they've
become actual friends like
Louise Dunn and the BNIs.
Yeah.
you.
know, well, it used to be
like they would just come to
my events and now we go to
spas together and brunches and
dinners.
Elle: it.
Yes.
Isn't that the best?
Hatti: It is the best.
It's the best, honestly,
where I can speak to them
about, you know, dating
in the London scene and
they can be like, oh, I'm
married, and I'll be like,
oh, well you're so lucky.
I'm joking.
You know, we're
Elle: conversations
transformed from, what do you
think about this messaging?
What's the customer pain
points to check out this
date that I went on?
And
Hatti: Exactly.
Going from like frameworks
to like, does he work?
I'm joking, but
Elle: I love it a
hundred percent.
Hatti: Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
So fun.
So fun.
And uh, finally, I would
like to really thank all
of my clients, like every
single one of them in all
capacities from big companies
like Amazon Mirror Meta.
Uh, to small startups
who are just like
kicking off their career.
Everyone inspires me so much.
It gets me up in the morning
working late at night.
They're all incredibly
smart individuals.
And Yeah.
I just, I love product
marketing to the
depths of my soul.
And I think a lot of people,
when they consume my content
on the, like the first time
they start to see my content,
they probably don't realize
how much I really truly care
about product marketing.
Because, you know, at the
start of this conversation,
I kicked off that I had built
out my company you know,
for six and a half years.
And it was literally that
company that changed my
trajectory of my life in
ways that I had no idea.
So product marketing to me
was a salvation because one
thing that I don't actually
tell a lot of people was
I actually built that
company when I was homeless.
And for a year straight.
Yeah.
for a year straight.
I was living out of a
suitcase in a bin bag
because I don't have the best
relationship with my family.
And for a sequence of
events, it led to that.
And I'm like, now in
hindsight, I'm like,
it was the best thing
that ever happened.
Thank God it happened.
but product marketing was
literally a salvation.
And the more I think about
it, I could probably cry,
so I don't want that 'cause
you'll get good ratings.
I'm joking.
But, um, you know,
having that for
Elle: Oh.
Hatti: El um, but Yeah.
like, um, my goodness, Yeah.
Product marketing literally
was like my, my breakthrough
away from poverty into
a life that I couldn't
imagine for myself.
And that's again, a
reason that's brought
me back into my faith.
And I would obviously thank
God for everything that's,
that he's done for me.
But.
yeah,
the ability to help other
pmms, uh, live out their
dream life like I have
has been like, honestly
like an absolute blessing.
Um, and that's why I'm
just so thankful that you
are here today and yeah.
I presume you're
gonna clip this and
put this on TikTok, but
honestly I just, I think
it's good to be vulnerable.
I think it's okay to be
vulnerable and especially
since I care so much, and if
product marketing can change
someone's life in a way that
they didn't know or it can
change their kids' lives,
you know, El for example,
you have two amazing kids.
Like, if it can change your
kids' lives from the decision
of, okay, well they have, you
know, they have to go to a
specific school to now we can
put them in a school that we
want, or we can go on holiday
to a place that we want, as
opposed to what we can afford.
It's just like if I'm
able to play even the
smallest part in someone's.
Career, whether it be they're
just in the product marketing
world or they're 30 plus
years in the game, which a
lot of me come to me from
that world, which is wild.
But I think it's 'cause they
see some sort of confidence
in me that they can borrow.
And I'm like, let's do
this, let's crush it.
which is funny 'cause one
of my recent clients, he
joined me, he's much older.
One a person who I didn't
think would ever want my
coaching, but he was like,
I want to end my product
marketing career with a bang.
He was like, I want
to have true impact.
I want, I want to have a
level of impact that I will
be so happy when I retire.
And I'm like, dude,
let's do this.
Let's go.
So Yeah.
I just love product marketing
to the depths of my soul.
And Yeah, Thank you
for, for having me.
Elle: Yeah.
And we're so lucky to have
you that such a cheerleader
for others and, and a
true coach who is able
to help someone take that
superpower and harness
it to have that impact.
so thank you so much
for sharing and for
being vulnerable.
And I'm such a big, um,
believer of his plan is
greater than our plan and it's
so funny how something, some,
yeah, something that is meant
for you, we'll find you even
no matter how long it takes.
so I'm glad that it, product
marketers.com found you,
even though you found, even
though you founded it, like.
Hatti: Right?
Exactly.
So true.
So true.
Elle: Oh, and then my
last question for you,
Hadie, is, um, where can
we access your expertise?
Obviously we've got
product marketers.com,
we've got LinkedIn.
You know, if someone
wanted to reach out to
you, what's the best way?
Hatti: Yeah.
I would say the best way is
jump into my dms on LinkedIn.
Follow me there.
I have my YouTube channel
as well, where I go into
depth on specific areas of
product marketing, have my
profitable PMM challenge.
So I'd love everyone
to come and join it.
Just see what it's like.
Yeah.
I feel like it's gonna be
groundbreaking, so for a
lot of people, more than the
hundreds that I've already
put them through, you know,
so like just.
Jump in, try it.
But also I have my group
coaching and my inner
circle coaching, which
is for higher level pmms.
Yeah.
Of different seniority.
So Right.
now I have PMM
employees in there.
I have employees who want
to become freelancers or do
consulting work on the side.
Really ambitious
pmms who come to me.
I think it's because they
see what I'm doing and
they're like, huh, I can
learn from this lady.
Because, you know, bear
in mind Al, I only, I
only created product
marketers.com and launched
it at the end of January.
So maybe like
seven months ago.
Yeah.
And now I'm considered, you
know, a known name amongst
PMM consultants and coaches
who've been in the game for
years and years and years.
So I'm always about like,
how can we use the highest
leverage ways in order
for you to build up your
career, get to your goals
as quickly as possible?
That's, that's why I was
able to be all of the C-suite
roles in my twenties and now
in my thirties doing this.
So.
Yeah.
I would just recommend, if
you want to find me, I'm on
LinkedIn, I'm on YouTube.
I'm always down to chat.
I'm always down to
voice note, so ping me
a message and uh, Yeah,
Elle: we'll definitely
link everything in the
show notes for everyone.
one last shameless plug
for join the PMM challenge.
Hatti: Yeah, do it, please.
Elle: And thank you Pam,
and listeners for joining
us on this adventure today.
I hope today's episode
leaves you with inspiration
to take the next step
in your own journey.