For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Note: Please note that the text below is an uncorrected transcript of the audio captured for this podcast. We pray the Lord uses these words to bless you as you seek Him!
Kaley Olson: Thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my friend and my co-host for today, Shae Hill.
Shae Hill: Hey, Kaley. I'm glad you're back. Welcome back to the podcast.
Kaley Olson: I know. Here I am.
Shae Hill: We haven't been here in a minute.
Kaley Olson: I know. It's February when we're releasing this. Having a baby takes you out. Literally.
Shae Hill: Well, I'm glad to have you back.
Kaley Olson: I am back. And I'm excited for this episode because it's another episode where you dive deep into a conversation with Dr. Joel Muddamalle, who is our resident theologian. And what I really appreciate about these episodes is truly the fact that you helped bring Joel down to our level, because we love Joel. But we gotta like bring the-
Shae Hill: He knows so much.
Kaley Olson: He does.
Shae Hill: Yeah, he does.
Kaley Olson: We gotta bring him down to where I live most of the time. And probably where a lot of our listeners are. But I wanna take a moment to remind our listeners that no matter how long you've been a believer, you can start right where you are. You don't have to have a degree like Joel has. Proverbs 31 exists to help make Biblical truth accessible, whether that's through this podcast or through a platform like our free First 5 mobile app. And with First 5, you can download the app for free and create an account and spend a few weeks at a time with us walking through a book or books of the Bible. A study we're really excited about is one on the Book of Acts coming up soon and that's what Shae and Joel are here to talk about with us today. So Shae, I know the Book of Acts is often referred to as Acts of the apostles, but a lot of times it's shortened to Acts, but there's so much more to it than that. Will you share with our listeners what you and Joel are going to talk about today?
Shae Hill: Yes, I would love to. So I would say with Acts, the two main topics that emerge are the Holy Spirit and community. And so in this episode today, we actually talk about this buzzword vulnerability, and we dive into questions like what does being vulnerable actually mean? Does the Bible call us to embrace vulnerability?
Does the Bible call us to embrace vulnerability? And what is the difference between authenticity and vulnerability? So whether you guys listening today love to share or you're more of a private or reserved person and you don't enjoy opening up as much, as believers, this is such an important conversation for you to listen to today, because I know that when we know what God's word says, we will learn to experience the full benefit of the role that godly community can play in our lives.
Kaley Olson: I love that. Before we jump in, you heard me say earlier that this episode is connected to our First 5 study of the book of Acts. And guys, after you listen, I guarantee that you're gonna wanna study this book either again or for the first time. So here's how you can do that. First, get the free First 5 mobile app and create an account.
And then purchase a copy of the Act Study Guide to make the study personal. Both of these we've linked for you in our show notes.
Shae Hill: Okay, guys, let's dive in.
Joel, you did a recent Q&A that you were telling me about. And I think it was for a young adults ministry or young adults leadership. Is that right?
Joel Muddamalle. Yeah. For my friends, Camila and Emily over at Passion City for the young adult ministry.
Shae Hill: And you were telling me about one of the questions that you got asked and I just couldn't stop thinking about it. And so...I thought, let's just bring this conversation over to the podcast today. And so, I feel like I get like to roll out what the question is. Because everyone's now like, what's the question? And so, the question you were asked was, and I'm probably building it up too much, but I think through our conversation, people will be really interested about it, is how do we embrace vulnerability? And I think that this question is so interesting because you and I were talking about like, are cultures kind of obsessed with like...vulnerability unfiltered. Like it used to be like the most filtered, like let's throw on the Instagram filters. And now it's like, no, this is unfiltered. And I think that a lot of people use the word vulnerability in a bunch of different ways. And so I just wanted to unpack this today. So let's dive in.
Joel Muddamalle: Well, I think I remember when I was asked this question and you know, I'm like, I always pay attention to the wording of questions. And it's like, so the question was like, how do we embrace vulnerability? And one of my fears was like, wait a minute. The way that this question is phrased, it seems to imply that the person who's asking it expects that vulnerability must always be embraced.
Shae Hill: Right.
Joel Muddamalle: And now here like I'm doing-
Shae Hill: Like that's implied in that question.
Joel Muddamalle: That's how I read it. So I'm like, you know, I'm always having these theological checks in my brain. Yeah. I'm like, wait a minute, hold on. And so I'm asking this question like, okay, what actually is vulnerability?
And does the Bible actually call us to embrace vulnerability?
Shae Hill: Yeah, to be vulnerable.
Joel Muddamalle: All the time, 100% without any boundaries and without any restrictions. And so before I even get into that question or those thoughts and ideas, Shae, I do want to just maybe make an observation of our society and our culture. And I'm curious what your take is on it. But going back to what you said, it very much does seem to be that our society is constantly the polarization swings, you know? It's like it's always swinging from one direction to another. At one point it was all incredibly like, all your Instagram feeds need to like look top notch, beautiful, aesthetic. Do you remember when people cared a lot about the filters that you used in your stories? Like the filter story thing was a big deal, you know? Because it was supposed to give this persona, this image. And now, this is like what I'm living in right now, it's like...actually people want raw. They want unfiltered. They don't want you to use, you know, they actually prefer to see you without your makeup on with your hair all done. And even more interesting, you know, my wife does a lot of Instagram TikTok stuff. Even more interesting is they seem to want to see the shift. Like they want to see you putting on the makeup.
Shae Hill: Like the get ready with me's.
Joel Muddamalle: Yes. That's it.
Shae Hill: I also love the get ready with me's.
Joel Muddamalle: Okay. But I think there's something about the get ready's with me. They want to see the process.
Shae Hill: The glow up process. Yes.
Joel Muddamalle: They want to see this is what it looked like before. This is how we get to, and then we get to the other side. And I actually think that right there is something that is very telling for our society where we want the benefits of vulnerability, right? But I'm worried that we're either, yeah, I'm worried that we're not paying attention to the requirements of vulnerability.
And then at the same time, there's also a different part of it that is we are unwilling to walk in the consequences of vulnerability.
Shae Hill: Yeah. I mean, I think that the examples you're giving, there's definitely aspects of our world right now where it's like it looks like vulnerability, but it's actually a little bit manufactured. Like even the like no filter, no makeup, makeup look.
It's still very curated. It's very styled. It's like, you're not really doing like, I woke up like this, this is really what I look like kind of thing. It's like, it's still like, you found good lighting and it's still a little like, you didn't just throw that together, you know? So I think that's interesting. Also, it's weird for me because, or just funny, I guess, but like I, I'm almost 30 and I grew up in like high school and college where Instagram was still very casual. It was like you only followed like your friends, like influencers were not a thing, and it was just like you could post pictures of like whatever. It was just kind of like this is what I'm up to. It wasn't like styled, curated, Pinterest looking, your feed wasn't all coordinated. It was just fun. And so I have a friend like that will often say like, let's make Instagram casual again, like let's start making it fun again. Let's like...post what we want to. And I think there's something to that where it's like, that's like fun and there is refreshing, but I wouldn't say that that's always what like sells or what like makes people even like famous. But sometimes that like manufactured or it appears to be a little bit manufactured. I don't want to like apply it that to people that it's not true for them, but sometimes it's just it can seem a little bit like inauthentic. And so that's where we've even talked about like this difference between authenticity and vulnerability. Do you want me to get into that a little bit? Okay.
Joel Muddamalle: So I remember you were telling me this. I was like my, I had the mind blown emoji. I was like, this is it. This is the distinction that I was looking for. And you just crushed it.
Shae Hill: I've said before that, like, I don't love being vulnerable. Okay. Like I'm a little bit more private. I keep my emotions kind of close to the chest. I don't like sharing my feelings. I've kind of been like this way even since like a child where my mom would pick me up from school and she would say, how was your day? I'd say, good. And I wanted to move on. Like I did not want to open everything up and like divulge all my feelings, my thoughts.
Joel Muddamalle: You should like my 13 year old right now.
Shae Hill: Yeah. My sister opposite, she wants to run through everything, share all the details.
Joel Muddamalle: Sounds like my 12 year old right now.
Shae Hill: Yeah, okay. There's like both in every family, I'm sure. But I used to say like, I don't like being vulnerable. And then I just came to this realization of like, like to your point, to your earlier question, like I don't know if I'm supposed to be vulnerable completely with everyone. I actually think that might lack some wisdom. But what I do want to be, and what I think is honorable and full of integrity, and I would even argue biblical, is to be authentic. Like to be authentic means I'm not gonna have a front. I'm not going to be someone that I'm not. I'm going to be true to who God's made me to be, I'm not gonna like perform. I think that's being authentic. Whereas I think vulnerability is kind of sharing like the last 2%. I have a friend that will say that. Like, where if we're kind of being like open and like sharing something, I'll be like, what's the last 2% of that, that you're like not wanting to say. That's vulnerable to me. To say that, because it's hard.
Joel Muddamalle: Well, I love that. And it actually fits the Latin word that vulnerability comes from. It's a Latin word, volnare and it means to be wounded or to open yourself up to being wounded. And what you just described right there is that last two seconds of what you want to say. That is the volnare moment. That's that. Okay.
Shae Hill: And it feels costly. But like when you say like when you're saying wound, I'm like, well, no wonder that it feels so exposing and like raw because it's like you're opening. Are you saying like you're opening yourself up to potentially be like wounded? Like there's a cost to what you're saying. And it's I think if I share this, it's like you could potentially change what you think about me or even hurt me or betray me or tell someone else that. And that feel has always felt really costly. So that perspective shift has been really helpful to me where I'm like, I'm willing to be authentic, but I'm going to be choosy when I'm vulnerable.
Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I would say that that's so good on so many levels. I think authenticity is actually the prerequisite for vulnerability.
Shae Hill: Right.
Joel Muddamalle: And we're talking about this earlier where it's like...Authenticity is actually what our world longs for.
Shae Hill: Yes.
Joel Muddamalle: Our world longs to see you as you actually are, where there's no pretense, there's no gimmicks, there's no work up of, you know, it's just like, oh, it's refreshing. Somebody asked my kids once, they're like, is your like when your dad like when you're at home like with your dad Is he always like setting the Bible and is he always just like like having like Bible theology questions and my son Liam was hilarious both Liam and Levi were both like my dad spends a lot of time researching fantasy football and watching basketball. He plays basketball Tuesday nights and yeah, he does read a lot He like reads stuff, but he also really likes fiction books and you know and I remember just like sitting back, like listen to this conversation, and you could just see like, it was almost like authenticity, right? And it was like, there's this buildup of what you expect somebody to be like. And then there's the reality of it. It's like when people ask my wife, Brittany, and she's like, do you guys, in your prayers, are you just always like praying all the time, you know? And Brittany's like, well, we laugh a lot. Like we laugh a lot. Yeah, it's like, and yes, we have like, but authenticity, I think, is the prerequisite for vulnerability because you can also be authentic and in your authenticity say, hey, there are these requirements that ought to be in place in order to live a vulnerable life with certain people, not all people at all times. And I can authentically say, man, this is not the season. This is not the season or the situation or the circumstance for this level of vulnerability. And we want to be wise in terms of where we're being vulnerable. I love how Paul kind of puts it in 2 Corinthians 12:9. And this is how he says it. He says, my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is perfected in weakness. And so the way that Paul frames the concept of vulnerability, the concept of authenticity is within the framework of weakness. And so if you're listening right now and you're like, man, I'm tired and I'm exhausted, right? Or if you're feeling like I've got all these fears and I'm so fearful that at the end of this, I'm gonna lack any ounce of peace. Or if you're like, oh gosh, I'm just, I'm worried about the next hard and hurtful thing that might be coming my way. Like if you're working through all these things, being honest or authentic is to say it, to say it out loud. Like, I'm weak, you know? Like I've got human fears. Now that's authentic. Then there might be a smaller group of people, in your life that you have built trust. And there is a reciprocity, you know, as honest as you've been with them, they have been honest with you. And so you've built, you know, what is the phrase you've put in the bank, the chips in the bank? Is that it?
Shae Hill: Yeah, you have chips in the bank. You've built the relational equity.
Joel Muddamalle: That's it. You've built a relational equity. You've got the spiritual, emotional kind of chips in the bank. And in those relationships, you move from here's authentically how I'm feeling to hear specifically what I'm feeling.
Shae Hill: Which is that vulnerability piece. I think that's so good because I think about like even people that are in friend groups or they're scared to join a small group or community group or Bible study at their church because they feel like someone like it's going to be opening up like their deepest darkest secrets that they have to share with like a group of 20 people they don't know. And that's where I'm like, no, I don't think, I think that's where we've gotten this wrong. It's like, do you have capacity to be authentic? You know, to show up as like yourself and to be honest and to commit to that reality at all costs and to be open and transparent. But I think that vulnerability piece comes over time with choice people that you choose to do life with. And that's where I think that distinction between authenticity and vulnerability is so important because I think that if we don't get it right, it will keep us in isolation when really like God is inviting us to do life with fellow believers and fellow Christian like brothers and sisters in a way that is both authentic and vulnerable, but that doesn't mean we have to jump right into the deep end with everyone right away.
Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so you're describing wise vulnerability versus unwise vulnerability.
Shae Hill: Yeah, that's good. See, you're better at putting the like, this is what this is, I love that.
Joel Muddamalle: It's so good because it's like, okay, so, wise vulnerability puts you in a position to create conditions of safety.
Shae Hill: Right. Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle: Unwise vulnerability actually exposes you to unsafe situations and circumstances. And if you end up getting wounded, right, in unsafe environments, that can be incredibly tragic.
Shae Hill: So, I think that's probably what my fear is when I say like I'm scared to be vulnerable. I'm scared of the repercussions of being un-unwisely vulnerable. I don't know if I said that right. But like having a moment where I overshare something, which some people will call that like a vulnerability hangover, where you like hung out with friends and the next day you're kind of spiraling about what you shared. I think the reason that you're having that is because like to your point, Joel, like the vulnerable means like wounding. Like it costs you something to share that, you know? And sometimes you're spiraling because maybe you overshared with people that like weren't your people and now you're worried and what they're gonna say and blah, blah, blah, blah. But also I think...you're feeling like almost like a releasing of a weight of like that cost you something to share that.
Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I have a good friend and he's like this is like I think wise vulnerabilities. The unwise vulnerability is like you know you get wounded and then it's like oh my gosh it's everything's spiraling out of control.
Shae Hill: Yeah. Like I word vomited. Yeah.
Joel Muddmalle: You know and now you're in from there's information that's out that can be mishandled or misunderstood misrepresented like all this stuff right. Now the wise vulnerability you may be wounded. And I want to be like precise with this.
Shae Hill: That's a good point.
Joel Muddamalle: So I had, and I'll just share like a personal story. When the year kind of started, I had a group of friends that I said, hey, here's what my travel schedule kind of looks like. It's a book release year, you know, and so I'm going to have to travel just a little bit more, but this is not going to be the norm. Like these are the requirements that I'm going to put in place, right? And so just a little bit ago, I was in Atlanta, my friend who's a pastor in that area, we had dinner and he was like, he asked me, he's like, hey, how are we doing with next year and events? And I was like, uh. And I'm looking at like January and February, I'm looking at some commitments that I've made and I was like, oh, I've got to be vulnerable and honest here. And I kind of shared and he looked at me and he goes, dude, you said you weren't going to do this. And so, I was vulnerable. And I was...wounded.
Shae Hill: Yeah, that's true.
Joel Muddamalle: But the wounded was self-inflicted.
Shae Hill: Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle: And it was an environment that was safe so that he could then be like, hey, what do we need to do?
Shae Hill: Yeah. You know, are they holding you accountable?
Joel Muddamalle: Exactly.
Shae Hill: You would ask them to do what you'll have the relational equity to do that exchange to happen.
Joel Muddamalle: Exactly. And like there's a biblical principle here in Acts 2:41 through 42. I think sometimes people can. I want to say this carefully. I think sometimes they can over glorified, maybe that's not the right phrase, but they have this picture of the first century church that is like, you know, the famous phrasing is like, oh, all the believers had everything together and they gave and there's this like utopian vision.
Shae Hill: It's kind of like rose colored glasses that they're looking at.
Joel Muddamalle: And I, it's not that that's not true, but I want us to always put in context the requirements and then, and this is what the text says in 41 through 42. So those who accepted his message. What does that mean? Some people didn't accept the message. And it's talking about the message of Jesus. Of Jesus, the gospel. This is when Peter gets up, it's Acts chapter two, Pentecost, he gets up and he declares this incredible message and he tells the story of God for the people of Israel and all the Gentiles that have been gathered together. And then the text says, for those who accepted, which means some people didn't accept. So you think about this pie chart, right? Like you've got this large group of people, now instantly it's cut down. Because you've got the difference between those who accepted and those who didn't accept his message. And then the next phrase is, we're baptized. So the actually cuts the pie chart down a little bit more because the way that this phrase is, the way that the word in Greek is kind of phrased is that's a secondary condition. Not just accepting the message, but then accepted it and submitted themselves to baptism. So now it's closer, right? Like you're getting down. And that day, about 3,000 people were added to them. And then they devoted themselves. That's another condition. And this devotion means to, in Greek, it means to give yourself over to something, it means to intentionally choose something. Well, what did they intentionally choose? They gave themselves over to the teaching of God's word, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. And the context of some people are like, well, there's 3,000 people. The context of this would have been house churches. So those 3,000 people would have come together in like this large area, but they would have dispersed and they would have gone to their local settings and house churches were anywhere between 10 to 25 people, right? And in all of these places, they had this prerequisite. They had these requirements for what it meant to be vulnerable in the household of God. It was people who accepted the message of Jesus. They were baptized as a public symbol of their allegiance to Christ. They were first and foremost dedicated to the word of God, to fellowship with God's people, and to the breaking of bread and prayer as a remembrance of who Jesus was and what he did. And as a result of these things, there was honesty and vulnerability inside of the church. In the absence of these things, you probably wanna be careful with the level of vulnerability and the expectations you put on other people.
Shae Hill: That's so good. So going back to our question that we shared at the top of this conversation, how do we embrace vulnerability? I mean, the short answer I would say is with wisdom. And boundaries with wise boundaries, that's what I would say. That's my like short version or my takeaway. Is there any other thing that you would add to that?
Joel Muddamalle: I mean, you nailed it.
Shae Hill: I think that's it, fam. But I think that's how we do that. And so I feel like using wisdom and applying vulnerability in the context of biblical community is really where we will see all of these things come together and will really thrive and flourish. And I'd want to pull out what you said is that there's a distinction between vulnerability and authenticity. And so I might want to rephrase like in live I'd be like, oh, that's a really great question. I want to let me re-ask this question, you know, and I would re-ask the question, should we always embrace vulnerability? And my answer would be no. Yeah. We should always embrace and pursue authenticity and we should embrace vulnerability if it's wise and reasonable within the context and your life situation.
Shae Hill: I think that's so good. Is there anything we didn't say that you want to share before we wrap up?
Joel Muddamalle: Okay, that's good.
Shae Hill: Thanks for tuning in today, guys. We hope that this conversation's been helpful for you. And if there's anything that you'd love to hear from Joel and I in a future episode, please shoot us a DM, leave us a comment, leave us a review. And we'd love to keep carrying on these conversations with you.
Kaley Olson: Okay, Shae, I'm going to reroute our listeners here a little bit. At the very end, you say, DM us for more questions. Here's what I want you guys to do. I want you to DM me because me and my friend, Jana sitting across from me on this episode, we work on the schedule for the podcast and we wanna know what your questions are. So you can DM me on Instagram at, at Kaley Olson. It's K-A-L-E-Y-O-L-S-N. And I'll keep track of what the people want to hear more of because guys, we're passionate about providing content that will help you. So if you've got a question about the Bible, if you're walking through something in life that you need encouragement in, whatever it is, I wanna know about it so that we can find a teacher that can help remind you of God's truth in that.
Shae Hill: Thanks for those directions, Kaley. That was much more helpful. Much more of a directive that people can actually follow. So make sure you guys send your ideas, your questions, all the things to Kaley. And as we close, I really want to encourage you to dive into the book of Acts with us. There is so much more than just seeing what God did through the first group of believers. It is worth studying again, no matter how worn those pages of your Bible are. So make sure you click the link in our show notes to download the book.
So make sure you click the link in our show notes to download the first five app and then purchase your study guide.
Kaley Olson: All right friends, thanks for tuning in again. At Proverbs 31, we believe when you know the truth and love the truth, it changes everything.