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In this week's episode, we discuss the intricate relationship between mental and physical health, unraveling how psychological stress can manifest as physical symptoms, from common headaches to more severe conditions like strokes. We explore the range of psychogenic disorders, where emotional and mental strain presents itself through physical pain or dysfunction, and discuss the challenges many people face when acknowledging that their symptoms might not be purely medical, but rather psychological in origin. We also discuss the impact of chronic stress on both mental and physical health, and how it can lead to long-term issues such as stroke, fatigue, and anxiety disorders. We also touch on the generational differences in how people approach these issues—older generations often lean towards seeking medical diagnoses or, conversely, may ignore symptoms altogether, while younger generations are increasingly open to psychological explanations and diagnoses even when not warranted. Tune in as we break down the stigmas surrounding mental health, the reluctance to address the mind-body connection, and how both medical and psychological interventions can work together to improve overall well-being.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.919)
Welcome to the shrink down. Today we're going to be talking about the relationship between mental health and our physical health. But before we get into our topic, we are going to start with our four minute faves. Who wants to start today, ladies? All right, go Terry.
Teri (00:13.697)
I'll go. So mine is a Disney Plus new show that my fourth grader actually told me about and recommended, which is really cool because he just started doing this. He we here's another plug. They have a subscription to the week junior that kids news magazine that comes weekly. If your kids are anywhere between probably second and sixth grade, maybe it's awesome. It comes weekly. It's not cheap. It's called the week junior.
Lauren (00:14.079)
it's eerie.
Wilhelmina (00:19.502)
Mmm.
Vanessa (00:43.023)
to say what is it called again? The Week Junior.
Teri (00:43.605)
And it's kid, yeah, the weak junior. So I guess this is sort of two faves and it's kid friendly, appropriate news and it's entertainment, sports, global news, politics sort of light. And it's really cool. And so my fourth grader two weeks ago said, can we watch this new show called Win or Lose? It's the first Pixar original series. So yes, it's called Win or Lose. It's about a middle school.
Lauren (00:47.507)
Mm-hmm
Wilhelmina (01:09.029)
Maddie's watching it, yes!
Teri (01:13.271)
girl softball team. There's eight episodes. All of them aren't even out yet. They released two per Wednesday. So two more are coming out this week. And the team makes it to the championship, but each episode is from a different person's perspective. So one is from the UMP's perspective and his background story in the week leading up to the championship game. One is from a player's perspective. One's from a mom's perspective. It's so well done. It is so psychologically friendly.
Lauren (01:14.954)
No!
Lauren (01:27.998)
Ooh I love that!
Vanessa (01:28.236)
I like that.
Teri (01:41.237)
It's hysterical, it's well written. Our whole family's been watching it. It's called Win or Lose on Disney Plus. And it was really cool because my fourth grader was so excited to recommend a show that he learned about on his own. And then it's really good. So I think anyone of any age, I think even teenagers would enjoy it. It's really, really good. Win or Lose.
Wilhelmina (01:41.347)
Guess.
Lauren (01:46.762)
So fun.
Lauren (01:52.744)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (01:52.987)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (01:53.27)
I love it.
Lauren (01:59.881)
Yeah.
Vanessa (02:02.523)
Well, that's good, because it's always hard to find a show, I feel like, that your kids like and you want to watch with them. Like sometimes you're like struggling through a show that they really like and you're like, oh my God, this is not good. Awesome. That's good.
Lauren (02:02.89)
Aw, I love that.
Wilhelmina (02:06.262)
and you like.
Lauren (02:08.179)
So true.
Teri (02:08.236)
Yeah.
Teri (02:12.447)
Not this. This is good. This is great.
Lauren (02:13.418)
Painful, right.
Wilhelmina (02:15.866)
Yeah, Maddie and Griffin were watching and they must have seen it come up and I was making them breakfast and I was like, got pulled into it. And I was like, what is this? They're like, oh, mom, you are going to love this. And then at some point I was in tears and they were like, see, we knew you were going to love it. Anytime I cry, they're like, we get, we knew, we knew you were going to cry. So yeah, it's really good. Yeah.
Lauren (02:27.626)
No.
Teri (02:30.594)
Ha ha ha!
Vanessa (02:30.744)
All right, so what else you guys got?
Lauren (02:41.386)
I'll go. So I actually I had a couple of faves this week, but I'm just gonna I'm just gonna kind of narrow it down here. So this or this last week for Catholics, we started Lent. So and I mean, most of the people listening to this know what Lent is. So I'm not going to go into that. But the whole idea is like 40 days of doing something that the way that I describe it to my kids is to better yourself. Right. So there's there's a big kind of focus.
Vanessa (02:42.203)
Okay.
Lauren (03:11.41)
Or there is a perspective about fasting and that can feel very punitive to kids, whether it's fasting from things like food or alcohol or social media, things like that, like taking away of something. And so my oldest, Sam, is like, I don't know, mom, I don't know what I really want to do. And I don't, like, I'm not a big fan of doing something like, I'm going to fast from broccoli, right? Like something that's not meaningful, right? So I have said to them in the past, you don't have to.
take something away, you can actually do something. And one of the things that we do every single Lent is we clean out our closets and then donate. So clothes and books and toys and things like that. So that's something that we've done every single year anyway, but he really wanted to like do something. And so he said, he's like, I want to make myself stronger mentally and physically, which I just like loved. I was like, love this. Okay. So like, how are you going to do that? Like, what does that look like? Right. So he just like, he's
physical is very easy for him to figure out, like, I'm going to do like, you know, I'm going to play basketball outside and I'm going to do these things, whatever. And so I was like, well, what are you going to do to make your mind stronger? And he asked if we could meditate, which of course, like I know. So we are doing that every night together and we're going between two apps. So that's what I'm actually recommending. So the Halo app is like a Catholic based app. You guys have probably seen advertisements for Mark Wahlberg is the big guy on it. And he's actually very good.
Wilhelmina (04:16.878)
I love this.
Teri (04:31.361)
Mark, Mark Wahlberg. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (04:33.07)
wow.
Lauren (04:35.74)
And so that one, is definitely more religious, but there's a whole meditation section on there and they're anywhere from two to five minutes. So that's actually really nice. And Mark Wahlberg is excellent as a voice to listen to. but H-A-L-L-O. And both of these are doing free trials right now, which is why I figured it's a good time to just, might as well promote both of them, because you could always just do it for free and give it a try, whether you're Catholic or not.
Vanessa (04:49.104)
he voices it. How do you spell it? said, hello. How do you spell it? Okay.
Wilhelmina (04:59.522)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:04.49)
And then the other app that's excellent is Peloton. They have got a great mindfulness section, meditation section. And again, you can find really good kid-friendly ones that are anywhere from like three to five minutes in length, which I think is a really good place to start for anybody, but especially for kids. And so we've been doing that together every night and it's been super fun. yeah, those two little apps are good places to start. Yeah.
Teri (05:07.693)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (05:08.096)
Wilhelmina (05:20.536)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (05:25.739)
Love that.
Wilhelmina (05:25.922)
That's awesome.
Vanessa (05:26.608)
Good.
Wilhelmina (05:29.455)
And I will throw in there too, the call map is very good. Yeah. And it has, yeah.
Lauren (05:32.35)
Yes, I do like the comment too. I recommend that to actually to families. Like patients. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (05:37.218)
Yeah, and I recommend that one to patients. And that one has a lot of celebrities. That one has bedtime stories. Matthew McConaughey will read you a bedtime story. know. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Yes, so you guys know what my favorite is going to be because I started watching this in Charlotte. My good friend Erica. Hi, Erica.
Lauren (05:47.378)
that's funny. I've never been in that section of it. that's funny. Okay. Well, there we go. Yeah. All right. Wilhelmina, what about you?
Lauren (05:59.978)
Wilhelmina (06:05.902)
She, we recommend TV and movies all the time to each other. And she had, we do these video messages to each other. And so she had said, Hey, I just started this new show. She was like, it's called Paradise. And she said, you know, James Marsden's in it, Sterling K. Brown, I'm not going to say anything else. She just stopped and she was like, just watch it. And I
Lauren (06:06.1)
Hmm
Wilhelmina (06:30.026)
never she doesn't do that very often. She's sort of like, it's really good if you get a chance, check it out or whatever. But she was so like, crystal clear. So I think I started it that day or the next day I started right on a trip. And I was like immediately pulled in. And I really can't say much about it. Because there's a lot of twists and turns and like, what I will say is, James Marsden plays the president, Sterling K Brown plays
Lauren (06:39.732)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lauren (06:47.732)
You can't.
Vanessa (06:49.307)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (06:59.692)
like one of his main guards or security detail men, Secret Service, thank you. And then each episode is like lost a little bit where you kind of like what you were saying, Terry, with your show, where you get a backstory on characters. And so it gives you a little bit, flushes out the person and then gives you more of another piece to the puzzle of what's going on. Every single episode ends.
Lauren (07:03.508)
Secret service.
Lauren (07:10.538)
Yeah.
Teri (07:25.171)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (07:29.172)
in the like a huge cliffhanger where you're like, what? And it reminds me of alias when I used to watch alias. I would almost need to start the next episode if I was binging it because it would just be like, no, no, no, I need to see what happens. So I started on my own, watched two episodes, then stopped and said, Owen, you need to watch these. So when I come home, we can catch up or we can watch it together, which we are now. So very good. Yes. Love it.
Lauren (07:32.638)
Yeah.
Vanessa (07:33.684)
Ha ha.
Lauren (07:37.222)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (07:55.658)
Tim and I are watching it as well. Yeah, it's really good. It's really good. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Four and we've been okay. So we've been doing that thing where we finished one and then I'm like, we just have to watch like five minutes of the next one so that I can then go to bed because it's like an incense such a cliffhanger that you're like, I need to like get into the next one. So yeah, it's quite it's quite well done.
Teri (07:57.887)
It's on my list.
Wilhelmina (07:59.874)
Hulu, Hulu, yep. What episode are you guys on? That's what we're on. Yes.
Vanessa (08:00.725)
I was about to ask what is a Hulu? Okay.
Wilhelmina (08:19.606)
were you taking it back? I'm not going to say anything, but Lauren will know exactly what I'm talking about. No, the shower, the shower, the shower. was like, hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. That's it. That says nothing. You'll get to it and you'll be like, hello.
Lauren (08:24.456)
Thank you.
Teri (08:24.845)
Okay.
Lauren (08:29.214)
Ha ha!
Vanessa (08:31.035)
If you're watching our video, Terry is, if you're not watching the video, Terry is flagging Wilhelmina to not say too much. my goodness. So I'm going to share, so we just got back from our trip. And so I kind of am in travel mode. So
Lauren (08:34.634)
She didn't ruin anything. No, no, no, no. We're good. We're good. Yes.
Teri (08:41.165)
Like that.
Wilhelmina (08:41.699)
And Lauren, did I say too much? Did you know exactly what I was talking about? Mm-hmm, yep.
Lauren (08:47.786)
you
Wilhelmina (08:49.816)
Vanessa, what is your fave for the week?
Vanessa (08:58.491)
I wanna do a travel tip and a fave. So if you're in the market for a new suitcase, so if you have one you love, do not listen, do not buy. But if you have one, if you're looking for one, for my birthday, I asked for an away suitcase, because I was in the market for a new one. And I have to say, I love it. It's a hard case, which is different. I've never had one before. I definitely think it has its pros and cons, but I'll just say that this thing glides like I can't even describe it. And to the point where,
Lauren (09:11.338)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (09:11.57)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (09:28.025)
My husband went on a work trip and took my way bag, which I have now forbidden. I'm like, no, no, no. If you're going to travel, you take your own suitcase. And he was like, this bag is amazing. And I was like, yes, I know.
Teri (09:32.013)
Hmm.
Teri (09:41.013)
Is it a carry-on size or a checked bags? How big is it? Yeah, yours is a carry-on. Okay.
Vanessa (09:44.111)
So they have different sizes. Mine is a carry-on. Yeah, so I have the carry-on, but you can get full size. They have the full range. And so if you're in the market, I highly recommend, I have really good friends who travel a lot. We actually travel together. They have them. And I was like, I think I need one of those. So Away is the name of the suitcase brand. I also want to give travel tips since we're talking about travel. So I travel a lot. And this past fall, I went to Columbia for a week with just
my carry-on and a small duffel. I know. So you can, you can. So I will say the thing that helped was it was hot there. So obviously we're talking summer clothes. So obviously if you're not, but rolling your clothes is like a good way to get a lot in. And then also using packing cubes. I don't always use packing cubes when I'm doing a check-in or a carry-on, but if I'm checking my bag, I do use the packing cubes because I think it's helpful.
Wilhelmina (10:16.672)
Impressive. You guys know I would never be able to do this.
Teri (10:18.047)
Impress.
Lauren (10:27.08)
Yeah.
Vanessa (10:43.163)
And I'm like very scared. The reason why I do carry on as much as possible and not check is because I'm frightened. I have a phobia, whatever you want to call it, of my bag getting lost. So I don't like to check a bag. But if I have to, I will put half of my stuff in the check bag and the half of my stuff in my carry on so that if they do lose my suitcase, I still have half things. Yes, which.
Wilhelmina (10:43.246)
I did too.
Lauren (11:06.248)
You still have things.
Vanessa (11:09.627)
I tried to describe this to my husband. So we did a one check bag together and we each had our carry on. We went to Europe two years ago and I asked him, I was like, so what do you have in your carry on? He was like, I have all of my pants and underwear. And I was like, so if they lose your suitcase, you'll be shirtless. I was like, he does. I was like, no, no, the point was to put half of everything into the check bag and the other half.
Wilhelmina (11:24.302)
You'll be shirtless, but...
Lauren (11:28.53)
Wow, but you know what? He's got fresh underwear. What more do you need?
Wilhelmina (11:33.432)
Yeah!
Vanessa (11:39.259)
into the carry-on. So my tips are rolling your clothes, packing cubes, and then my away suitcase, which I love. So that's what I have to share today. Yes. Yeah, I know you do. Like, I don't always. It just depends. just depends. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But definitely for a check bag, packing cube is the way to go. It helps just everything organized, helps everything fit better. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (11:49.708)
Yeah, packing cubes are a huge game changer.
Lauren (11:51.24)
I use packing, I use them in my carry-on every time. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (11:52.279)
Big fan. I do too.
Vanessa (12:09.883)
Well, good. All right, so we are going to be talking today about the relationship between mental health and physical health. And this can really run the range, right? So we can be talking about anything from, you know, experiencing headaches when you're stressed, right? Like our body feeling, you know, physical symptoms when we are either anxious or stressed and to the extreme, which would be, you know, experiencing epilepsy that's psychogenic in nature, right? That's like kind of the extreme end of the spectrum. So who wants to start?
on our topic today.
Lauren (12:41.898)
So I will jump in and say that I brought the topic to the table because there was a recent study that came out about the connection between stress and the experience of a stroke and how it's higher in women than men. especially in this age group of younger women, between the ages, I think they said it was like 27 to 49 or something like that, but the average age was 41 in this study. the study stress that's an association, not a causation.
an association between higher perceived stress and the experience of stroke. And it was significant in women versus men. And so I had just kind of brought it to you, Gales, in a text of going like, it feels like we're hearing and seeing a lot of this. And it's just, I just thought it was an interesting topic that, I mean, we discuss on our own all the time.
Teri (13:29.997)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (13:39.664)
in our clinical work as well as in personal life about the idea that are people aware of what their stress is? I think that was the question that I immediately thought of when I was reading the study and then actually thinking about it is it's higher perceived stress. And stress is completely subjective. So we can't say that the same thing's
I can't say the same thing that's stressful to me is stressful to you and vice versa. And so the only way that they can get this data is by people's perceptions. And that to me is so interesting. And so what is it about women that they're perceiving? Are they perceiving or are they experiencing stress differently than men that's resulting in these physical manifestations? So that's kind of where I think this kind of started. And then we all kind of had different ideas, even in our texting.
Teri (14:31.595)
Thank
Lauren (14:36.656)
about like how that presents itself and what it means and what you're seeing kind of in your personal life as well as clinical life.
Teri (14:44.845)
What I think about is one of the first things we were taught in graduate school about panic attacks, right? So, and that is still the case. When I talk to my PhD trainees at Rush, one of the first and the primary disorders they focus on when they're in training is anxiety-based disorders. One, because anxiety is the common cold of mental illness. It has the highest prevalence rates and it is much more easily treatable and managed compared to other psychiatric conditions, right?
Vanessa (14:52.123)
Hmm.
Lauren (14:52.148)
Yes. Yep.
Wilhelmina (15:05.506)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (15:13.307)
Yeah.
Teri (15:14.165)
disorder, major depressive disorder even. it's definitely anxiety is one of those things we know what to do with for the most part, both in kids, teens and adults. And I remember, and this is still the case for most PhD programs, is really teaching graduate students what to do when they're encountering a patient or a client with panic disorder. Because it's one of those situations that we're talking about where oftentimes it is misconstrued, those physical cues are misconstrued.
Vanessa (15:42.511)
Mm-hmm. Right. Chest pain,
Teri (15:43.377)
as a heart attack, as chest pain, it's a very physical somatic manifestation of the symptom profile. And oftentimes what happens is people experience those physical cues, they hone in on them, that actually is a bilateral or bi-directional relationship because then they think, my gosh, I'm having a hard time breathing, my chest feels tight, am I having a heart attack? What's going on? Can I continue driving my car? Should I pull over?
Wilhelmina (15:45.154)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Wilhelmina (16:01.002)
increases.
Lauren (16:02.888)
Right, right.
Lauren (16:09.758)
Right.
Teri (16:13.025)
that obviously then makes the anxiety worse and it's sort of this vicious cycle. And so I do think, and again, panic disorder is one of those disorders that statistically has very good remittance rates because we know how to treat it. But anxiety presents in a lot of different ways and I think some people cue into that in different ways, some don't. And I also think this is probably another part of the discussion. It's very generation based.
Lauren (16:16.094)
Right. Right.
Vanessa (16:17.669)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (16:17.933)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (16:26.786)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (16:26.836)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (16:41.74)
Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I think what we're hearing based on, Lauren, what you were saying, it's this message that is being repeated over and over from the studies we're seeing, from what is being shown in youth today, in older adults, is that mental health is physical health. Like, mental health, speaking of bi-directional, that is bi-directional. So when
Vanessa (16:42.383)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (17:05.847)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (17:11.776)
our mental health, we are anxious, when we have stress, when we have trauma, when we're holding onto shame, all of these things activate our parasympathetic nervous system. And when our parasympathetic nervous system is activated, this is our fight or flight reflex. This is meant for running away from tigers and bears, okay? And it's meant to be useful in the moment, short,
Lauren (17:25.29)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (17:34.228)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (17:40.204)
do its job, and then you go back to like a regulated state. Many of us are living in a continuous state of dysregulation. Yes. And this has been going on. mean, think of the older generations. This has been going on for years and years. And what they now know too is that this is all stored in the cells, and then it is passed on. So it becomes epigenetics. Yes. And so,
Lauren (17:49.994)
Heightened, yeah.
Teri (17:50.925)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (17:57.083)
No.
Lauren (18:03.316)
Yeah.
Vanessa (18:07.707)
and
Wilhelmina (18:09.546)
If you're like, I don't know where all of this comes from, look at your parents, look at your grandparents. And it's not a blame. It's like, this is in their DNA. And so we need to figure out how to get into a state of regulation. So when people say like, I know I'm so stressed. I need to work on the stress. I need to like relax a little bit more. It's not just that. It is literally figuring out how to.
Lauren (18:11.466)
Look at that family tree.
Vanessa (18:12.283)
Thank
Lauren (18:27.22)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (18:37.576)
stay regulated, which is slowing down, which is rest, which is taking time, slowing down, sleeping, walking for no reason in nature. It's everything that our society sort of says like, we'll do that when everything else is done.
Teri (18:57.527)
But you said the most important thing. You said how instead of why. And in a lot of my therapy work, people get bogged down in the why and they want to spend hours dissecting, analyzing why, exploring past history, past events. And I have often said, let's focus on the how first. There's time for the why, but you're struggling right now. So let's focus on the how.
Lauren (18:57.631)
Yeah, it's in.
Lauren (19:03.006)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (19:07.874)
Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (19:19.557)
Thank
Teri (19:24.855)
how you're feeling and how you can use different strategies to help yourself be more functional.
Lauren (19:30.014)
And I do think that when they're focusing on the why, it can be helpful to acknowledge and say, it's the way your brain is organized. Yep, it is organized in such a way so that you're primed for this response. Now let's figure out what to do about it. As opposed to like Terry is saying, to really kind of get bogged down in the why, there can be some support and help in doing that at some point, but figuring out sort of a
Teri (19:38.285)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:38.328)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:58.346)
approach that's tailored to that individual or to you to figure out what you need so that your stress isn't manifesting itself physically, I think is really that's the that's paramount, right to everything else.
Vanessa (20:12.347)
I one of the things is just even taking a step back from there is people being able to accept the fact that their physical symptoms are not medical, like in the sense of like, you're not having a heart attack, this is a panic attack, or no, this isn't leftover, you know, cognitive impact from your concussion, this is your stress now because you missed 10 days of school and you have 15 projects to do. And so I think getting people to the point where they can accept that this
Wilhelmina (20:20.459)
Hmm.
Teri (20:22.477)
Hmm. Hmm.
Wilhelmina (20:23.437)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:34.253)
Yes.
Vanessa (20:39.387)
physical symptom that you are actually experiencing is not because of some medical issue, that this is because of a psychological issue that's happening. That's, I feel like, you know, that's one hurdle, right? And then the next hurdle then is, okay, now that you're here in front of me, I'm the psychologist, then Lauren, right? Then the next hurdle is getting them to then, okay, let's focus on what's happening right now and getting you over that next time. So that's a tricky piece.
Lauren (20:41.706)
gonna say.
Wilhelmina (20:44.76)
Yes.
Teri (20:51.341)
It's hot. Yeah.
Lauren (20:52.51)
Well, but...
Lauren (21:05.77)
But there is such a medicalization to physical symptoms. That's always the first line. there is, it's really complex, right? Because there is some truth to it. If you're having a migraine, there is a medical treatment for that. And sometimes migraines are born out of a sort of just a genetic predisposition and there truly is nothing behind it. But sometimes migraines are promoted and brought on.
Teri (21:08.032)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (21:11.503)
Yes.
Vanessa (21:18.191)
Absolutely.
Vanessa (21:23.141)
Yep, I mean, that's Yeah, absolutely.
Wilhelmina (21:23.146)
Absolutely.
Lauren (21:31.592)
by psychological origins. And so it becomes complex, right? Because you do need to treat your physical symptoms. But it's like anything, if you continue to have a fever, you do need to figure out where the fever's coming from, right? So if you continue to have a physical symptom, figuring out like, OK, is this just straight physical in origin? Is this sort of a genetic predisposition based on my makeup? Or are there things that I can do to
sort of support prevention of the physical manifestation. And that's hard because if you're going to a medical doctor, which sometimes you really have to do, but that doctor is only promoting a physical or a medical treatment, then you're not necessarily gonna become aware of other aspects that may be contributing to the presentation they're seeing.
Wilhelmina (22:08.888)
Mm-hmm. That's it.
Wilhelmina (22:26.23)
And this is also where the generational thing comes in because I feel like we see a lot of the older generation where, no, but I just think I need one more MRI. I need another x-ray because I'm still having this back. I'm still doing this. And they spend just so much time. And this is where the medical field needs to be like, hey, I think instead of coming in for another test, another scan, another x-ray, another diagnosis,
Lauren (22:29.214)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (22:55.532)
I think you should see a therapist because I think this is more like psychosomatic, but they don't want to hear that because then they think, then it's not real. And I actually had a great, and that's the hard part. And you know, I had an experience with my mom where she was having some heart flutters. We spent almost 24 hours in the ER and hospital and she got all these tests run, ended up, the doctor came in and was like, everything came back normal. Like you are in great health.
Vanessa (23:04.719)
That's the hard part.
Teri (23:05.707)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (23:06.026)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:25.346)
My mom, and he said, but what that means is, and my mom bounced out of bed, got dressed. She was like, I'm so relieved. And I was like, mom, did you hear him? Did you hear what he said? And she was like, what? And she actually hadn't really heard it. And he actually did a good job. He was like, this is real. What you're feeling is real, but it is based on how much sleep are you getting? Like, are you stressed? And he did touch on it.
Lauren (23:41.108)
didn't process it.
Teri (23:46.049)
Right.
Lauren (23:51.07)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:54.818)
But even I was in the room, he was touching on it, and she still was sort of like, good, I'm okay.
Lauren (24:00.028)
able to explain it away.
Teri (24:00.749)
Right. And it's so powerful. When we were talking about this topic, the best example for myself that came to mind, what I've seen mainly actually just in my clinical practice is PNES seizures, which are psychogenic non-epileptic seizures, which in a neurology clinic, one third on average, 30 % of seizures once they do testing are PNES seizures. That is a huge percentage. And like well, Amina said, they're real.
Lauren (24:13.46)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (24:25.349)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:27.391)
Yeah.
Teri (24:29.793)
They're experiencing them. However, when you medicalize something and people who are suffering need a place to go, and that's what I think it comes down to is that when people are suffering, they take comfort in a label, a name, a group to belong to, a place to go. And we don't have a lot of places to go when people are suffering. lot of, you it used to be you go to your church community or you go to your community. And now it's, I'm struggling.
Lauren (24:38.282)
Yeah.
Vanessa (24:45.531)
Thank
Lauren (24:55.464)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (24:56.974)
Yeah.
Teri (24:59.273)
Where do I go? I'm going to go to the doctor's office.
Lauren (25:01.812)
You know, it's interesting you said that, Terry, because I looked at based on this topic, I looked up on our psychological association, the APA, the American Psychological Association, sort of their research on stress in America. And they talked about tailored treatment for women because women are more likely to internalize internalized stress, which results in physical and mental disorders, right? Whereas men externalize it, they get it out of their body. And that actually works very well. But
Wilhelmina (25:19.959)
Hmm.
Teri (25:22.989)
.
Teri (25:30.561)
They punch walls, get in fights.
Lauren (25:31.698)
Yes, right, aggression. But women tend to internalize in the two tailored treatments they were talking about. One is connection. And they said the problem is women are also most more likely than men to cancel their plans when they have social plans or things like that, right? It's a much more isolated existence now than it used to be. So connection and then rest. And that was the other thing they said. That's a tough one, because as simple as these two treatments are,
Wilhelmina (25:32.216)
Ha ha!
Wilhelmina (25:41.804)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:01.616)
Rest is one of those things that while it's profoundly productive, right, we also feel like we would need to explain it away. Like it's almost stressful to think about resting for stress. And so we don't do that. Even though there are readily available treatments that are free, connecting with others and rest, we don't necessarily involve ourselves in the treatments that would actually work, which is kind of continuing the cycle of the physical and mental manifestations of it.
Wilhelmina (26:09.869)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (26:12.951)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (26:20.173)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (26:31.661)
That makes sense. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:32.377)
That was interesting. Yeah.
Vanessa (26:33.947)
Going back to what Terry was saying about the PNAS group, I think what actually complicates that, and a lot of the things we're talking about, is that there's a good percentage of those patients that actually do have epilepsy. And so then it becomes, how do you tease apart the true medical, right? Like we talked about, the migraine is real, right? And my rule of thumb for when clients come in with physical pain is, let's rule out anything medical. So I do say medical first. And one of the things that I've experienced that I think is just such a great,
Lauren (26:51.22)
St. Right.
Lauren (26:56.638)
Yep. Yep.
Teri (26:57.781)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vanessa (27:03.611)
kind of model for treating patients, especially kind of these high risk groups like cardiology, neurology, is multidisciplinary clinics. And so when I worked previously in a hospital setting, I was part of a multidisciplinary concussion clinic because that's another population where we see a lot of psychosocial issues going on. And I kind of mentioned that earlier where we have a team who comes in who legitimately sustained a concussion.
Wilhelmina (27:14.38)
Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (27:21.078)
I remember that.
Vanessa (27:32.025)
and I will say there were kids who came in who did not legitimately sustain a concussion, but that's a whole separate group, but who actually had a concussion and was experiencing these long-term side effects where we all know about post-concussive syndrome, it's a true thing, but these kids were actually experiencing anxiety, depression, secondary to their injury, right? So they've now been out of school for two months, they have a pile of homework and they just don't know how to get back. And so that clinic had, because we were seeing that we were getting like,
Lauren (27:35.7)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (27:51.352)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (27:57.663)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:01.799)
These are not just the kids who had a concussion, went to their pediatrician, their symptoms resolve, and they go on. Those are not the kids that we're seeing. We're seeing the kids who the pediatrician's like, well, I don't know what to do with this kid because we've done all the things. And so the clinic was a medical physician. So sometimes it was neurology, sometimes it was physical medicine, but an MD. And then neuropsychology, which is where I came in to do the assessment for
Lauren (28:09.566)
Yeah.
Lauren (28:13.394)
He's checked out medically. Yeah.
Teri (28:15.789)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (28:19.892)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:29.827)
cognitive, but also assessing for emotional, you know, psychosocial issues. And then if we kind of then we get together and say, Okay, what do we think is going on here? And if we thought like, Okay, this is there's some anxiety, depression, then we were able to call in Pete psych who would come in and then, you know, meet with them. And it was just such a nice model. Because, you know, like you said, Terry, like, they, you know, the neurologist is like, I don't know, I don't know what to do with you, you know. And so when you have this group, and I think it helps. Yes.
Wilhelmina (28:33.037)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (28:53.005)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (28:53.662)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (28:55.693)
They have to navigate those conversations with the kids and the parents.
Vanessa (28:59.427)
Right, because, right, and so it helps to have, yeah, because then everyone can come in and say, okay, we've all discussed this, we've all, like, we're giving you this message, and I think it's helpful to hear that from multiple, you know, medical professionals, you know, saying to you, hey, this is what we think this really is, I think that that message is better received that way.
Lauren (28:59.43)
And they're not necessarily trained to do so, which is where the multi-plus.
Teri (29:19.969)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (29:20.8)
Because when people don't want to hear that, they don't want to hear it. So I think about, you have like maybe older generation that they're like, I'm not crazy. That's what they, I'm not crazy. And it's like, no, no, no, you're not, you're not crazy. Or you have, in that case, Vanessa, you have parents that are like, no, but I think this is a concussion. Let's fix it and get my kid back in school.
Lauren (29:24.594)
I find lots of ways not to hear it.
Vanessa (29:25.241)
Yeah.
Teri (29:35.309)
Mm-hmm. I know.
Lauren (29:35.402)
Oh, I know. I know. No.
Vanessa (29:47.013)
So invested in that, yes.
Wilhelmina (29:48.96)
and back in their sport and let's keep going. And you're like, ooh, what this requires is maybe less and going to take a little bit longer, but is actually going to be long-term. The solution, not just, there's nothing quick about it.
Vanessa (29:59.771)
Mm-hmm.
All right. Yeah.
Lauren (30:04.392)
I think it's hard. We've talked about this before and it always comes back with being able to tolerate discomfort. It's like such a hard concept for all. It's hard for all of us. And so then when you've had something that you could describe as medical and to what you were both saying, sometimes there's an actual medical solution and you're like, cool, we're done. Like I took ibuprofen, my fever's gone and whatever the virus was got out of my system.
Wilhelmina (30:10.242)
Hmm.
Vanessa (30:11.125)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:14.647)
all of us.
Vanessa (30:22.903)
Mm-hmm. Good.
Lauren (30:29.602)
That feels really good because you tolerated that discomfort for the period of time you had to and now I'm all done. And when it doesn't go that way, I think it's honest for all of us to say, I get it. I don't like being uncomfortable. Nobody does. So it's hard.
Teri (30:46.045)
And I would say on the other side of things, so Wilhelmina is saying people don't want to hear it, right? A lot of what I see in my practice is teens and young adults with very mild presentations, sometimes what I would call mild presentations of human traits, to, human experiences want a psychiatric label, especially ADHD and autism.
Lauren (31:03.21)
Human experiences. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:04.046)
you
Vanessa (31:04.217)
you
Vanessa (31:13.635)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:14.037)
yeah.
Teri (31:14.977)
The mild, what's interesting is the mild presentations tend to have the loudest voices in terms of social media presence, TikTok, et cetera. And by definition, those disorders, if they reach a category, should have, it is a level of disability. It is a functional impairment. So when I'm talking about kids who have ADHD, these are kids who have ER visits due to their hyperactivity.
Lauren (31:20.351)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:34.552)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (31:34.75)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (31:43.55)
Yeah.
Teri (31:43.821)
These are kids who have significant academic impairment. These are kids who can't finish high school, certainly not attending college. Yes, impacting their functioning, not like, oh, I have a hard time getting my home, my two hours of homework done. That's not ADHD, okay? We're looking for functional impairment. Same with autism. So individuals who are mildly neurodivergent are seeking a label and they don't want to hear.
Vanessa (31:46.875)
Great.
Lauren (31:47.274)
Yeah, it's actually impacting their functioning, right?
Lauren (31:57.322)
Yeah.
Teri (32:09.313)
that, well, sure, everyone's allowed to be a little quirky and everyone's allowed to have some of these traits and some of what you're describing are very human traits, even coming back to the ADHD, like attention fragmentation, because we live in a world with a hundred distractions. Right. Is that, is your presentation approaching a level of disability and impairment, or is it annoying for you as a person to deal with? Because that's also how well can you manage sort of your quirks and human traits that you need to and
Wilhelmina (32:12.462)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (32:12.507)
Thank you.
Wilhelmina (32:20.398)
That is fragmented.
Vanessa (32:23.118)
million.
Teri (32:38.237)
especially when it comes to autism, for people to seek out labels that might not necessarily reach the full diagnostic criteria is somewhat disparaging to those families whose kids have a very severe level of impairment, whose kids are nonverbal, who are self injuring themselves. And when it comes to the acceptance movement, especially for autism, I think for mild type, you know, level one type of autism presentations, that's fine. But for level three,
Wilhelmina (32:52.312)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:08.639)
accepting your child injuring themselves on a daily basis, that doesn't work. And so there is things like ABA and other strategies that need to be helped. So I think on the other side of things, there's individuals who are actively seeking psychiatric diagnoses as a form of self-identity because they are looking, they're at a stage of identity formation because they're adolescents and young adults, and they are using some of these psychiatric labels to formulate their identities.
Wilhelmina (33:12.312)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (33:23.086)
yeah.
Teri (33:35.905)
we're somewhat over diagnosing some of these things because younger people are seeking these certain diagnoses out in order to assimilate some of that into their identity, which for those individuals who have severe levels of those, I think we're starting to dilute the diagnoses get diluted.
Vanessa (33:53.211)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:54.392)
I'm thinking about a clip that is actually from Lauren, a show you recommended earlier this, I think it was this season, the English teacher, maybe it was last year. And I think it was at the classroom and she was like, that was really offensive to me because as many of you know, I've just been diagnosed with asymptomatic Tourette's. And I think we circulated this with each other.
Lauren (34:02.58)
yeah, when they're in the library.
Lauren (34:10.164)
Yeah.
Lauren (34:16.964)
Yes, asymptomatic. Right. He's like, that means you don't have symptoms. So I mean, I think when it goes back to what we were talking about, all of this, whether it's a diagnostic category or not, is it's subjective. And so if you're experiencing stress or related symptoms, but I think we can call kind of a lot of these things like your experience of the world.
Teri (34:19.063)
Bye-bye.
Vanessa (34:24.886)
You
Lauren (34:45.738)
If you're experiencing in a way that feels so overwhelming to you that all you can do is label it as something physical when it's not or you're ignoring it, you're totally dissociating from the fact that you are experiencing any of this and it results in physical or psychological symptoms or you want to be labeled as something. The thing that kind of unites all of those different experiences is that it's all subjective. And so I think the question is what...
Vanessa (35:05.882)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (35:14.324)
How do people get, how do you get more in touch with what your experience is and if it's actually like, is this stress or is this something else?
Wilhelmina (35:24.654)
And I wrote down, because I was reading something and it was talking about basically being in this sympathetic, like this parasympathetic state, this dysregulated state for like constant for years, chronic and what it can do. And some of these symptoms, these physical symptoms that are real, that are a result of this. And I was shocked. think, Terry, I reached out to you and I was like, oh my gosh.
Lauren (35:40.906)
chronic.
Wilhelmina (35:54.176)
And it was like headaches, migraines, obviously we mentioned that, light noise sensitivity, tightness in your neck and shoulders. mean, like, I mean, how many, difficulty calming down, feeling cold. I have a lot of, yes, feeling cold, sugar and salt craving. So I think about people who are like, I just really crave this, you know, different things, foods, high blood pressure. This one was surprising to me.
Vanessa (35:59.867)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:02.79)
sure, for sure.
Vanessa (36:03.524)
haha
Lauren (36:10.314)
Now that's interesting.
Vanessa (36:16.997)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:23.918)
polycystic ovarian syndrome, which again, women, women, and we're seeing more and more of that these days. There are more and more, yes, yes, sleep issues. I mean, those were just a few that wasn't even the full list. And these are things obviously, but people could just write those off. But these could be from just being in a chronic state of dysregulation. And over time, these will impair your functioning, sleep issues, constant migraines.
Vanessa (36:26.779)
Peace.
Lauren (36:27.11)
Wow, yeah.
Lauren (36:32.254)
Well, talk about internalizing something. Wow.
Lauren (36:39.304)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:48.809)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:54.282)
I know I started to have constant migraines after I had my kiddos and I was waking up in the middle of the night. Do you guys remember this? And I was like, what is going on? Well, I ended up doing the medical field first and like did the, just to make sure. And it was that I was clenching my teeth and I was grinding so much in the middle of the night. And I was like, and that's when I, what? Found that out. I went to see a therapist, still seeing her. I worked on
Lauren (37:00.671)
Yeah.
Lauren (37:07.145)
Yes.
Vanessa (37:12.313)
Hmm. Grinding teeth at night. Yeah.
Lauren (37:12.552)
Yes, in the middle of the night.
Teri (37:13.697)
But in truth.
Wilhelmina (37:24.738)
focusing more on taking that rest, not just like, I'll do it when I can. And guess what? It helped. I did get on medication for a little bit and it helped. It helped. It did.
Lauren (37:36.414)
Yeah, it got rid of the migraines. Yeah.
Teri (37:37.517)
And here's something to complicate all of this even more, right? So how do you know what is what, what's causing what? Is there is some really good research coming out of long COVID and COVID over the last five years, as we are at the five year anniversary. There is some consistent research that expectation of symptoms and expectation of symptom severity predicts severity of illness experiences. So if you listen to that list Wilhelmina just read,
Vanessa (37:38.767)
Mm-hmm. Thank you, sir.
Lauren (37:50.27)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (37:50.276)
Yeah.
Lauren (37:57.661)
Mmm
Wilhelmina (38:02.495)
Interesting.
Teri (38:06.945)
for example, and go, yeah, I check five, eight of those. Once you develop the expectation of symptom presence and severity, you're more likely to experience it. So then it'd
Lauren (38:07.358)
Yeah.
Vanessa (38:09.627)
All of them.
Lauren (38:17.322)
Well, I will say, and I know that we're going to do an episode on this at some point about the hot topic of perimenopause and menopause. I think that is happening. I'm like, people are describing themselves 10 out of 10 symptoms and you're like, well, are you just maybe like, right.
Vanessa (38:22.587)
was about to say that I was like, oh, that's all perimenopause. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (38:23.01)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (38:24.642)
Ding ding ding!
Teri (38:26.989)
Right.
Teri (38:33.811)
And when you expect to have symptoms, you're going to. Right, it's sort of that self-fulfilling prophecy and how much it's this delicate balance of what to pay attention to, what to take care of versus what to be mindful for and be like, I'm just going to be present focus because one of the two biggest predictors, actually the two biggest predictors, Northwestern has a research lab of long COVID, of experiencing, you know, like those long-term sequelae of continuing to have COVID symptoms long after is loneliness as a primary predictor of long COVID.
Vanessa (38:37.185)
become more in tune to like, what is your body doing? Right? Yeah. Yep.
Lauren (38:39.294)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:39.758)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:44.083)
Yeah.
Vanessa (39:02.107)
Thank
Lauren (39:02.122)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (39:02.222)
Yep.
Teri (39:03.893)
And so is self-diagnosis of COVID. And so if people have said, I think I had COVID and I think I'm going to test positive. And even those individuals who didn't actually have a positive test that said, I think it was a false negative. Those are the two biggest predictors for long COVID. There were people in May of 2020, that's how long COVID became a term. It came out in May of 2020, which was only three months after COVID showed up on everyone's radar.
Lauren (39:07.786)
Fascinating.
Wilhelmina (39:18.19)
Hmmmm
Vanessa (39:18.427)
Yeah.
Teri (39:32.951)
people were using the term long COVID. So I actually think it's sort of like how we learned a lot about trauma from 9-11. I think we're actually gonna learn a lot coming from COVID and long COVID presentations about some of these concepts that we're talking about.
Lauren (39:36.426)
Bye.
Lauren (39:40.618)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (39:48.062)
That's interesting.
Wilhelmina (39:48.236)
And what did COVID do? It increased isolation. mean, it's just, yeah, yeah. I mean, and I don't know about like what I saw in my practice and just in my life, especially that older generation, that isolation was brutal, like brutal. They couldn't see their kids. They couldn't see grandkids. couldn't see like, and depending on,
Vanessa (39:51.493)
Yes.
Lauren (39:52.744)
I mean, yeah, part of that's been true, right? That's so interesting.
Teri (39:54.477)
Right, right.
Lauren (40:10.046)
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
Teri (40:11.543)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (40:17.816)
their social circle, they're the high risk group. And depending on their social, yes. And like, I know we got on Zoom calls. The four of us got on, we had like happy hour, we were doing that. I know I was doing it with someone. It was like, we were able to still reach out. In fact, some of us didn't, like we had a social impact, but maybe not as much because we utilized it. And then there are other people that didn't do that. And so they were alone or like with maybe their spouse for
Vanessa (40:18.135)
they are the high risk group, right? Yeah.
Lauren (40:19.753)
Yeah.
Teri (40:21.409)
Yeah, couldn't go to the store.
Lauren (40:27.902)
Yeah, we did.
Wilhelmina (40:47.948)
Maybe a year. mean, it was, it's a long time. And I think a lot has come out of that.
Lauren (40:49.182)
Yeah.
Vanessa (40:53.499)
And there was also like a range of people who were like, I'm not gonna see anyone, we're not gonna see anybody, you know, that because they were maybe already like anxious people, right? And then we're scared and there was already some pre like existing anxiety versus people who perhaps were like, you know what, I'm gonna create this bubble with this certain like X amount of friends and we're just gonna like, you know, hang out sort of thing. So they weren't isolating themselves as much. So I think some of that pre-existing mental health stuff played a role in that too.
Teri (40:53.814)
I agree.
Wilhelmina (40:59.662)
Scared, scared of getting it, yep.
Mm-hmm.
Teri (41:04.397)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (41:19.704)
Yes.
Lauren (41:19.818)
was going to say there was something very convenient about it in a way. that really kind of speaks to what we're talking about in terms of stress and how you understand it. so if you're saying, if you're utilizing it as a reason to isolate yourself from people, something like COVID, there could be other examples of that though, then it's much more likely that you're internalizing your experience of so many other things as well.
Wilhelmina (41:22.701)
Yes.
Teri (41:24.173)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vanessa (41:36.73)
Mm?
Wilhelmina (41:46.154)
especially as the strains started to get less dangerous, like right away, absolutely. Like people were dying, right? Like people were. And yes, but then as the strains got less lethal, really, and it became very similar to the flu and things like that, which can be still deadly, of course, but you would see these people who were maybe just more anxious in general,
Teri (41:50.605)
Hmm?
Lauren (41:52.84)
Yeah, it was scary.
Vanessa (41:53.051)
And there was no test to take, there was no anything to do, right?
Teri (41:55.277)
scary. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:15.572)
And they would just be like, no, I still can't. I still can't. And at this point, many people had had COVID. It was like, it's OK. And it was no, you couldn't explain it. They just were still isolating. They were still not going out, not seeing people.
Lauren (42:32.062)
subjective nature of their experience, right? Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:34.008)
Yes, yes. I feel like we could go on and on about this. mean, we just see this so much. Yeah, no, did.
Lauren (42:40.298)
We definitely could, but I think we touched on it, yeah.
Vanessa (42:40.315)
Any other thoughts on today's topic?
Teri (42:48.045)
My one parting thought, well, I have many, but one would be, think the expectation of 100 % wellness is not reality based. Whether it's 100 % perfection of mental health, physical health, both, this idea that we can all hit 100 and figure that out is false. And that's not realistic. Not to sound pessimistic or like a Debbie Downer, but that expectation of itself is something that should be challenged.
Vanessa (42:50.203)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (42:51.415)
Ha!
Lauren (43:04.297)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (43:06.639)
Right. Yeah. That's a good point.
Lauren (43:11.933)
And I.
Lauren (43:18.12)
I agree, especially for women.
Vanessa (43:18.213)
Right.
Teri (43:20.077)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (43:20.622)
And I will also, I just wanna like throw out because I feel like we often say, okay, it's stress. So, okay, but then what does that mean? And here is what this means. If you feel, if you're listening to this or you feel like, you know, maybe this is what's going on. One, obviously make sure the medical is checked out. Then find a therapist, find a therapist that, you know, that you can afford. So they take insurance if you have insurance.
You make sure it's a good fit. And then meditation. Lauren, you just mentioned some apps, great apps, calm. There's a ton of ways to meditate. Take more time. It's so simple. Take time to pause. Take time to feel your feelings. All feelings matter and even the ones you don't wanna feel. And the only way you feel your feelings is actually slowing down. Like the people who go, go, go, go, go.
Teri (44:01.197)
So simple.
Wilhelmina (44:20.002)
go, go, go, go, go. They're always scheduled. Sometimes that's an avoidance of feeling. And so the solution, if you will, is slowing down, just taking the time, meditation, all of these things which maybe don't sound fun, they don't sound glamorous, and maybe they don't sound like a quick fix. That's it. But that's what you do if it's stress and what to do.
These are some of those.
Vanessa (44:49.573)
I'll add to that, putting your phone away, like staying off of social media and scrolling, right? Like, yeah, staying away from that too. Yeah.
Teri (44:51.585)
Hmm.
Lauren (44:52.242)
Hehehehehe
Wilhelmina (44:52.374)
Mm, yes, yes. Read an actual book, call a friend, go see your resting connection. And you know what, for older individuals, I saw a great clip with Jane Fonda, and she said the best thing older adults can do to have better physical and mental health, join local art classes.
Lauren (45:00.606)
Well, rest in connection. Rest in connection.
Vanessa (45:02.892)
connection.
Wilhelmina (45:17.838)
like in their park districts, because it doesn't require something physical. So it's not like they, oh, but I can't do that because of my hip or my this or that. And it doesn't have to be anything. You can be painting, it could be knitting, it could be whatever. You meet people, you connect, do something creative, you activate different areas of your brain. And they said that they have found that this is such a great protective thing for older adults, like retired adults. So I thought that was cool. Yeah.
Vanessa (45:46.555)
That is cool. Well, if you don't listen to us, listen to Jane Fonda then, all right? Jane knows. All right, thank you for joining us today. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Lauren (45:50.728)
Hehehehehe
Wilhelmina (45:51.01)
Here we go. Jane knows.