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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. This episode contains content about marriage and sex that might not be suitable for some younger listeners. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Alright, you guys. Well, we are back for another episode of the debrief podcast with Matthew Steven Brown. Right before, I think we're gonna take a quick summer break, give you a little rest
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That'd be nice.
Tammy Brown:And relaxation for a couple weeks. But before we do that, we're gonna get to your questions. So let's jump into this first one from Aiden from Chino, California. He says, hey, pastor Matt. I'm a longtime listener of this podcast and would first like to say that I appreciate your honesty and discernment when it comes to all of these complex questions.
Tammy Brown:Same. I agree with that. This year, I feel like I've gotten so much closer to God and have done some spiritual healing, but I feel like I am struggling more in life compared to last year when I was never going to church and then doing illicit drugs and hooking up with random girls. Why is this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So
Tammy Brown:Aiden Can't wait to hear how
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:answer Yeah. So Aiden, you know, here's the thing is
Scott Schutte:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, last year this time you were on the devil's team. So why why would he attack you? Why would he pick on you? Why would he come after you? You're already one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So now you've changed your life. You're getting closer to God, you're doing some spiritual healing. And so think about a rubber band, like if both Tammy and I had a rubber band and we both pull in opposite directions, when is the rubber band at its most tension? It's right before it breaks. And so what I would say is you're probably, Aiden, on the verge of a breakthrough.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, it's what we said last week church service, and I don't know when this is airing, but Jesus said that the road that leads to life is narrow and difficult, and there are few that find it. And I think a lot of times when new Christians start walking the right path, they're kind of surprised by how difficult And, it you know, one of the reasons is I think Satan targets Christians. He comes after us. He comes after our life, our finances, our family, our kids, our marriage, you know, because we are on his enemy's team. We're on the Lord's team, and so now we have declared our allegiance and loyalty to Christ, and I think that he comes after us, and we got to be surprised.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There was this famous pastor a couple hundred years ago, his name was John Wesley, he's the founder of the Methodist movement, came out of the Church of England, which in America we call Anglican, and he was doing revivals. And I remember reading this story, but he was riding his horse one day and he just jumped off his horse and fell on the ground crying, and everybody around him was like, what are you doing? And he said, it's been days since I've been persecuted, I must be lukewarm. And he just realized life got peaceful, life got easy, and it was in that moment he realized, hey, the devil's not coming after me because I'm not doing anything for God. And so what I would just say is I would take this, Aiden, as a sign that you are really growing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. You are really changing, and you have declared a spiritual war, and the enemy is coming after you, and the struggling is really, you know, the breakthrough right before, you know, you really figure out what God wants to do in your life. So this morning in my quiet time, I'm reading in I'm in the middle of Genesis, and I am when, for those of you who don't know, the three famous people in Genesis are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Bible talks about God as as the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Jesus refers to God that way. But Jacob is the youngest of those three, and Jacob lies to his dad. Jacob deceives his dad, you know, goes away, and ends up marrying his mom's brother's daughter, gets deceived, gets Leah, then works another seven years, gets Rachel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Anyways, he's going back because God told him to go back to the land that he had called Abraham to, and he's got to meet his brother who is got 400 men, all these armies, and he's struggling with, God, why would you call me to do this if I'm going to die? My brother's going to kill me. My brother hates me. He's sworn to kill me. Why would you do this to me?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's in that moment, Aiden, that Jacob wrestles with God, and he wrestles all night long. And he will not let the Lord go until the Lord blesses him and wants to know the Lord's name. And the Lord won't tell him, but he touches his hip, dislocates his hip, but then he blesses him and says, Your name is no longer Jacob, which can be translated deceiver or liar. That's not like, can you imagine if you named your kid liar? Not a great name, but he really was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was sharing with you, Tammy, a couple days ago, you know, that whole family line was deceivers. So Rachel was a deceiver. She encouraged him to deceive his dad. Her brother was a deceiver. He nonstop deceived Jacob, even though Jacob weren't faithful, even though Jacob was loyal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He constantly deceived him and worked against him. And so he has this moment, Aiden, where he wrestles with God all night until the morning, and God touches his hip, and right, so he's going walk with a limp for the rest of his life, but God changes his name to Israel, and Israel means he who wrestles with God. That's his name. And so I think what you're doing, Aiden, is as you're changing, as you're growing, you're wrestling with God, and God is going to change who you are. And it's not going to be easy, it's going to be difficult, but God is going to push you through this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you didn't used to go to church, you did whatever you want. Now, right, every single week, you are deciding on a Sunday or Saturday night, whenever you attended, this time is for the Lord. The enemy is going to send you stuff. You didn't used to turn to drugs to feel better, you're turning to the peace that surpasses all understanding. So that's going to come back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You used to hook up with random girls. Now you're hooking up with Jesus, right? You're no longer producing, or you're no longer turning towards sexual sin, you're saying no to that. And all of that's going to pull on you and weigh on you, but what's happening is you're wrestling with God, and you're coming to know Him. And my favorite line in that story this morning as I read it is, Jacob said, I have seen God face to face and did not die.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think there's things that we have to go through in life where we feel like we're not going to make it, the whole point is wrestling with God through it, and then God allows us to live and allows us to survive. And so I would just say, Aiden, I'm praying for you. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate your honesty. And I would just say, man, God be with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hang in there. Don't give up because it's so worth it. There's been, you know, times in my early twenties where I thought I can't do this, I'm not going to make it, and I'm so glad Tammy and I have survived. I think that this is a word for everybody, especially young people, and you're overwhelmed by housing prices, you're overwhelmed by how low wages are and all this thing. The way you make it is grinding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You just got to hang in there and not give up, and just keep working hard, and sticking to it, and trusting God, because over the long haul, when you trust God and when you follow God, He will you if you stay faithful. If you take detours, if you get into accidents off the way, I mean, that derails really that blessing. And Tammy and I are living in a season right now where we've been at Sandals almost thirty years, and we're sowing the seeds and reaping the harvest, excuse me, reaping the harvest of the sows we've we've sown over the years. And and now it's coming back, and we're getting to live in the blessings of the struggle. And Tammy, I mean, could share this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes it feels awkward because we're so used to the struggle that if Mhmm. The peace feels a little weird. Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:So Yeah. I think that's a good I also think it is a place of maturity when you recognize, like, wait. I I thought Jesus saved me. Because I think that's kind of a Western Christian thing of, like, he saved me so I'll never experience trouble, which is just not what we see anywhere. Right.
Tammy Brown:What he saved us from is ourselves, from an eternity apart from God. And so I I actually think this is such a healthy place to be to recognize the struggle, and and eventually be able to see it for what it is is that's what you've been saved from. You know, it doesn't mean it's not there. So such a good question, Aiden. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, and, yeah, great answer, Matt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You the best, and I'm praying for you, brother.
Tammy Brown:Absolutely. Okay. This next question comes from Landon, and he gave us some context for the question. So let's let me read that to you first, Matt. It says, I've heard pastor Matt talk before about his struggle with pornography as a young man.
Tammy Brown:I am 19 and have struggled with lust and specifically pornography since I was about 12 years old. Recently, I began to truly see the consequences of my actions and decided to cut those things out of my life. It has been almost a month since the last time I viewed or engaged with pornography, but it has also been a daily struggle. It is difficult for me to be alone because when because that is when I seem to be tempted the most. So my question is the question for you is, how did you stay diligent and disciplined enough to endure temptation?
Tammy Brown:Does it ever get any easier, and how long will it take me to completely heal from my my brain to rewire and be able to function the way God intended it? What are some tips for going forward? I would greatly appreciate those. Such vulnerability. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Thank you so much for the courage to write this question, and this is a perfect place to ask that, Landon.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Landon.
Tammy Brown:Landon? Okay. Yeah. Landon. So?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Landon, great question. And so let me just, first of all, let me celebrate you on thirty days of sobriety. I think that's a big deal. You know, one of the things I would really encourage you is to, remember the prayer one day at a time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's a prayer that Alcoholics Anonymous have used for years, and that's kind of the thing is each and every day presents itself with its own trouble. And for years, I didn't know, Tammy, when your dad's real birthday was, but I remember his sobriety birthday, and I think he got up to fifteen years sober, I can't remember, sixteen years, but that was such a big deal for him because he lived in freedom. And that's my hope for everybody that struggles with addiction, you could get to a place where you can live in freedom, and it's hard fought, and it's a long time, and you know, there is a period of time where your brain has to rewire and remake itself, and that's different for everybody, but most people it's right around five weeks where your brain creates new pathways. But here's the thing Landon, is the triggers will always be there with addiction. And so you just have to be so self aware of where not to go, what not to do, and how to eliminate that from from your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so let me just say this, Landon. So when I was a young man, your age, struggling with pornography, it was I did I had no access to video of any kind. So I didn't have cable TV. I didn't have HBO I didn't have phone. Yeah, cell phones had not been invented yet, and so the means to acquire pornography was quite difficult.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You had to go to a seven Eleven or Circle K or some kind of, you know, what would you call it?
Tammy Brown:Mini Mart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mini Mart. And you know, you had to look somebody in the face and say, I'll take the magazine in the back that was, you know, covered in black, and it was kind of a shameful thing. And so, you know, I was raised in church and so I wouldn't do that, or you know, I would get it from somebody else or something like that. So even though I struggle with the land and it just, it was not as available as it is today. Just wasn't.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so for me, you know, what changed first and foremost was conviction. I didn't feel good about it, I didn't feel right about it. You know, long before all the research that came out to talk about all the negatives about it, I was experiencing some real negative effects by it. And so one of the negative effects was being able to be intimate and present with Tammy. Even before, even before I dated and married Tammy, I had a weird not a weird, I had a hard time truly engaging and giving myself, and I don't mean sexually, but just just being present with the girls that I was dating because pornography was affecting my brain in a way that I didn't understand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so sexuality for me became fantasy land and it wasn't reality. And so then you go on a date, you're with a real person who has real dreams, real feelings, and and and you know, I mean I didn't know this at the time, but all that stuff that you're seeing on a film or in a magazine, it's all fake and they're getting paid to do that. So it's not real, and so it was creating spiritual conviction in me, it was creating relational challenges with whoever I was dating, and then ultimately when I got serious serious with Tammy and was dating her, I could tell, I couldn't put it into words, but I knew that it was doing something bad for me. So here's how you asked how did I did I make it? I have an ability and I don't know, I don't think everybody has this, but when I decide something's bad for me, I tend to have
Tammy Brown:You have real willpower.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I have a strange willpower to cut things out of my life that I feel are not good. And and I I just and I don't mean that for everybody, but for more than most people, if I decide something's bad, I don't do it. And so for me, I agreed with God and I decided that pornography was bad, and so I eliminated it from me. It also made me, gave expectations for my relationship with Tammy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It made me critical of her, right? Because you know, every time I see her she's not, you know, back then it was glossed, but you know, all what would you call it when they
Tammy Brown:Edited filtered.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Edited and photoshopped, right?
Scott Schutte:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't know what any of that was back then, but you know, no person is photoshopped when you walk around. No person is edited. That's just not real life. And so it was affecting me and what we really all long for, Landon, is intimacy and that's what God And wants for so sex is not just orgasmic relief, it's oneness, and that's what God wants you to learn to experience. And every married couple, think if they were honest, testify that it's really, really hard to experience that oneness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sexual relief is easier, but that oneness that we all long for and desire is difficult, and pornography was a huge problem for me in that. And Tammy and I went to counseling, think maybe when we were dating or when we first got married, I can't remember when we went to Nathan Lewis, Doctor. Nathan Lewis. Was that married or?
Tammy Brown:Very married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, we were married, and he just really challenged me on that, and it helped me. And Nathan was a straight up guy, straight shooter, still love him. He's a professor at CBU, but challenged me on that. But here's what I did. I surrounded myself landing with real guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I could talk about what's really going on. Because you know what I don't want hear from Tammy? I don't want to hear from Tammy, hey, I've been looking at these guys online, they really turned me on, they're so exciting. You know, I feel kind of bad, but I wish you look like them. I don't want to hear that, and Tammy doesn't want to hear the things that I was seeing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I got into accountability with relationship with some guys, started talking about that. And again, I didn't have access, so I wasn't surrounded by all of these images all around me, but I would encounter some things. And so I started talking about that, started encouraging other guys, started being open about it, honest about it, and the second I took away the shame piece, I found new power. Mhmm. So when I hid it and I was private about it, I really really struggled with it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I was open and honest and I had friends that I could trust, you know, hey, how are you doing? You know, have you masturbated? Have have you looked at pornography? Has this happened? And you know, Sam's earliest day, almost every guy was in a men's group and we were all talking about that each and every week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it just, it just got to the place where I had guys that loved me, that I trusted, that I challenged, and then over time it really, really changed. And then another thing happened, Landon, and I don't know if God will do this to you, but I had little girls. And they're beautiful, and I love them, and I don't want them to be objectified, and all of a sudden I had this new awareness and appreciation for women. I saw what Tammy went through to give birth, I saw what that was, you know, I got married, I just, I learned to really, really appreciate women through marriage in a way that I just didn't. And it wasn't that I was like, don't care about, it was ignorance.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I just was ignorant about, you know, my appreciation for women and how objectified they are. And I
Tammy Brown:would say one thing that Yeah. I've known from you too is like, and and I've heard you say this to each of our kids, but our son, you know, who's as similar to this is just, you know, the lie that it's selling you, but also the decision of, like, who do you wanna be? Yeah. Who do you wanna be? Whether it's pornography or any other thing.
Tammy Brown:And so for you, I know this conversation, and because we've counseled so many couples at this point, it's like getting to the root I mean, obviously, he's young. You can speak to a male libido being young. Yeah. I can't really speak to that. But also getting to the root of, like, why you're running to that is usually goes beyond just wanting to look at pornography or have pleasure.
Tammy Brown:It's usually rooted in something else. I don't feel good enough. I don't feel seen. And so I think one of the pro tips of this is, like, figuring out the enemy is gonna get get get a foothold anywhere there's an insecurity about who you are and what you believe and how you value yourself. And so, I mean, there is a lot of physical challenges of just wanting to have sex at that age for Like, when you say does it get easier?
Tammy Brown:Well, you get older.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And Lannon, let me tell you this. I mean, as you get older, it gets more and more manageable. Now, I say that, and I have pastors that I admire and I followed for years and they cheat on their wife in So their I'm like, okay, it doesn't go away, but like what Tammy said is there's two things. And so one, getting at the root of, you know, my own insecurity, you know, so is pornography a crutch because you're afraid to talk to girls?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because Is you're afraid of intimacy with women? Did you have an unhealthy relationship with your mom? What is the woman what is the woman giving you that's it's not just sex, I mean, you know, you're a young man, you're going be aroused by a naked woman, that's how God made you.
Tammy Brown:We're really getting into
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it now. Yeah. So so so what so what is it? No. Because what you said It's is
Tammy Brown:a good question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Thought I would have said in my twenties, my issue was with lust. In my thirties, I would have said, no. That was my issue. Was insecurities and shame.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so how how was I dealing with that? And I and
Tammy Brown:I But it also can be a go to when you're avoiding other difficult things in life. You're overwhelmed by having to provide for family. Yes. So it gives you a moment of relief or a moment of escape. I'm overwhelmed by finances.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. I lost my job. It's so I think the very tangled thing can be when when going to pornography becomes an escape from life because life is always going to life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's it's a drug for a lot of men and some women because there is a dopamine Yeah.
Tammy Brown:So that's I think that's the entanglement is just like, what do you run to when you're not okay?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:So that's the tip is that like figuring out healthy things to run to when life is not okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, and back to the thing you said about who do I want to be. So years ago, we did this ministry at Sandals Church called JC's Girls, and it was a group of women for our church that would go to strip clubs and they went to porn conventions. And I I remember vividly, there was a guy that was making a movie about it, and he was showing me like his, what would you call it, his uncut version. I don't mean like it was bad stuff, but the
Tammy Brown:Like the unedited.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, unedited And I was watching these men, so they were filming all these men going into a porn convention. And I was looking at, let's call it a 100 men are in line waiting for this porn convention in Vegas to open. And so the editor did this thing where he just kind of panned their faces. And I remember looking at the faces of these men, and they looked like animals. They looked like animals waiting in line at the zoo to be fed meat.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I thought, I don't want. I saw it, and a lot of them were older men, you know, I was younger at the time, and I was like, I don't want to be that. That's the future. I don't want to be that. And kind of in the way like when you see a homeless person that's lost their battle with addiction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'm not talking about mental illness, so don't send know, not everybody who's homeless is an addict. I get it. But a lot of people who are homeless lost their battle with addiction. And you see the end result for some people. So when I was a kid, I was always like, that's not what I want.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But when I saw this porn convention and all these guys going in, and he zoomed in on their faces, it was haunted. It haunted me, and I went, I don't want to be that. I want to be a dad. I want to be a husband. I want to be a godly man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not a perfect man, but I want you know, I want to live a God honoring life. And Lord, you know, take this away from me. And it didn't all go away, but it became manageable with a couple of things. I think honesty with Tammy. Now you're not married yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Accountability with guys, and a regular Bible reading time. I cannot tell you how that changed. When I'm pouring God's word into my mind Mhmm. You know, my libido is far more controllable, my stress is far lower than when I'm just living life on my own. And you know, today, like you guys don't know what day it is, but you guys were asking me, where are going?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't read my Bible this morning. So I went to the parking lot, sat in my car
Tammy Brown:In between meetings.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In between meetings, and I read my Bible Because and you're like, oh, you're so holy. No. It's because I'm not holy, and I need God's word every day. And I knew that I needed it today, and I don't I don't like missing things. I'm very disciplined with the gym and what I eat, and and it's not because I I don't think you I would define don't think you would define me as disciplined when we got married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Not at I've had to become that way because I've learned my weaknesses. So, Leland, what I do is I don't go to places where I'm going to be overstimulated, or, you know, when I go to the beach, I'm with my family or in the water surfing. That's it. I, you know, I don't sit and look at
Tammy Brown:You also super regulate like social media, which and if that's a big problem, then don't have it. It's not worth it for your soul.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Landon, I would say go get a dumb phone. You can go get them and and just and just change That makes
Tammy Brown:that mean a huge thing again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's a big deal because I there's freedom there. Mhmm. You know, even you and I were talking this week just about the stuff that we look at on TikTok. It's like, what what did I just Like, it's a looking at the last hour.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so, you know, learning to be present, to be with friends, to have relationships. And here's the thing, Landon. Here's the lie I believed when I was your age is when I get married, it'll fix all these problems. I cannot tell you that is, a, that's not the truth, but can't tell you how many guys in our got married and thought it would go away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay? No woman can satisfy a sex drive that's out of control. Just can't. A woman is not there to satisfy your addictive needs. That is not the purpose of intimacy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You wanna make a woman feel unloved, unseen, unappreciated. Let her be the resource for your sexual addiction. She will not like it. Mhmm. So sex in in a in a in a marriage is two two couples coming together for the purpose of mutual affirmation love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What did I say?
Tammy Brown:Two couples.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, two couples. Whoops. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. I just wanna get that Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Sorry. See how I just say I say things wrong wrong sometimes? And so so just know that marriage isn't gonna fix all this. You have to fix all of this.
Tammy Brown:And you can with God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And you can with God. Absolutely. Not And easy. It's the narrow road.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's the difficult path. Yep. But it's the path that God's called you to walk on.
Tammy Brown:And it's worth it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Jesus did it. I mean Jesus, you know, mean, I wouldn't imagine every single woman in his life was like, I prayed to God, and he said you're supposed to be my man. I mean, can you imagine? He's the perfect dude, like legitimately.
Tammy Brown:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And yet he was able to remain faithful and still love people and still saw women for who they were, and and he was their Lord and savior. So I just want you to know, Landon, I'm praying for you. I'm thankful for you, but find a church. I know I'm not going say what state you're in, but you're in the South. The South is is not always super real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So find a church, find a group of guys where you can be real. Know, if you Or
Tammy Brown:a guy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Or a guy, somebody that you trust, somebody that you can share things with and confess. And again, when we confess to God, we're forgiven, but when we confess to each other, we can overcome. So that's why James five sixteen says, confess your sins one to another so that you may be whole And healed. And healed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so a lot of people are like, well, confess this to God, I don't know why I don't get any better. Well, have you confessed it to somebody else? And that's a real power, especially in evangelical church that we that we don't use. You need to confess to somebody that you know and love.
Tammy Brown:That's good. That's good. Thank you so much for these questions, and you know, you'll hear that there are questions from the weekend sermons and messages and then questions like this. So the debrief can be a safe place for you to ask a real question. So if you wanna do that, go to sandalschurch.com backslash debrief, and we can get those questions to Matt.
Tammy Brown:But until then, we'll see you next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.