The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader

After being asked countless times, "what's the best calibre for hunting", or "how powerful of a cartridge do I need" or any variation thereof, we decided to take some time to discuss this in detail. Travis Bader and Paul Ballard provide a 101 education for those looking at getting into firearms and hunting in a user friendly and non-intimidating way.

This podcast has an accompanying blog post that can further illustrate and clarify points that are made here, make sure to check out: https://silvercore.ca/2021/07/13/calibre-and-cartridge-selection/

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

I'm Travis Bader
and this is The

Silvercore Podcast.

Join me as I discuss
matters related to

hunting, fishing, and
outdoor pursuits with the

people in businesses that
comprise the community.

If you're a new to
Silvercore, be sure to

check out our website,
www.Silvercore.ca where

you can learn more about
courses, services, and

products that we offer
as well as how you can

join The Silvercore Club,
which includes 10 million

in north America wide
liability insurance to

ensure you are properly
covered during your

outdoor adventures.

Have you ever looked at
the information specs

on an ammo package
and wondered what all

those numbers mean?

Do you have questions
about what the best

cartridge or calibre.

For your hunting needs.

This episode was
created for you and

also has a supplementary
blog posts on the

Silvercore website.

If we missed anything
or you want to

know more email
Podcast@Silvercore.ca.

So I'm sitting down
today with my longtime

friend and hunting
partner, Paul Ballard.

And if you're a listener
of The Silvercore

Podcast, you will
have definitely heard

Paul before talking
about many different

subjects, actually,
Paul you're on our,

our very first podcast.

I think that was
the very first one

with Nick and I.

That's right.

That was a fun one.

Yeah, no, I look back
on that the, uh, the

studio's changed, the
equipment's getting

better and, uh, you've
really embraced the

concept of the podcast.

And I think as a method
of communication to

people, it's, it's,
it's working it's,

it's, it's hip it's
now, it's happening man.

So we'll stay with that.

You know, one of the
podcasts that we did

together, that I get
a lot of comments

on, was information
for new hunters.

And a lot of people
have said that they've

derived a lot of
value out of that.

And really all of
the podcasts that we

do ,I do with a mind
towards the end user.

If we're going to be
asking for their time to

listen to the podcast,
we want to impart

some value to them.

Yeah.

And I agree.

And I, and we pitched
this one when we were

talking, uh, sort of
as a part two to that.

So we talk about
equipment in the form

of glass and rifle and
type of action and so on.

This one becomes more
specific, I think today,

because we want to talk
about the calibres.

What, what, what
calibre should I be

looking at for hunting?

The age old debate.

Right.

And I mean, everybody's
got an opinion on

this one, but let's
give some options for

people to think about.

We'll go from sort
of a basic approach

that, uh, I've picked
up my bolt action

rifle, what calibre
should I pick it in?

Right.

And what are the
pros and cons?

And so we got some
sort of, uh, you know,

we'll talk historically
a little bit.

We'll talk about a
little bit of math,

but not really get
into the math of it.

Right, right.

But there is some science
to this thing, uh, to

understand why certain
calibres are effective,

uh, understand some of
the emotional side to

think, oh, well maybe
emotional attachment

to certain calibres or
cartridges, we should

actually say cartridges.

I think, uh, calibre
does factor into it, but

the specific cartridges
have their own nature.

And let's see
where we go.

Well, one of the feedback
points that I got, and

I got this from a couple
of people and they said

really, really liked it
had to listen to it a

few times cause there
is a lot of information

and some people said,
although you and I,

as we're talking, we
didn't feel like we're

talking at any sort of
like high level stuff.

We also got to remember
when somebody brand new

to the game, it can be
a little overwhelming.

So after we're done here,
what I'm going to do is

I'm going to make a blog
post because you've got

some material here in
front of us, and we'll

probably reference a few
things throughout here.

So after the listeners
go through, we'll have

a more detailed account
with some visuals and

some graphs and, and for
them to reference back.

And the ability
to help them out.

Yeah.

I agree.

That's good.

So, whatever, um, you
caught in your ear, you

can, uh, you can see how
it plays out when you're

looking at the page.

Absolutely.

So when we're looking
at different cartridges

and different calibres,
at the very like

introductory level,
w what do you think

are some of the
things that people

should be thinking of?

Like, for, for my mind,
uh, cost, recoil and

efficiency of the round.

Yeah, well, I, I kind of,
I made some notes, so I

wouldn't forget things,
but how about, uh,

effective killing and,
and effective killing

needs to have some
empathy for the animal.

Um, it needs to be humane
needs to be quick to make

it, you know, empathetic.

And, and that's
the thing.

Of course, you know,
the regulations say any

centrefire cartridge is
suitable for big game.

British Columbia.

In British Columbia.

Yeah.

Let's keep it, uh, where,
where we're living, but

that's not realistic.

Like there are plenty of
those small, you know,

22 calibre centrefire
cartridges, which are

totally inadequate for,
you know, anything larger

than a varmint size game.

And then that
immediately takes away

that effectiveness
and you know, where,

we want a quick kill.

We, and, and there are
certain things between,

you know, not only
cartridge selection,

but some to do with
bullet placement

that can lead to that
humane quick kill.

Right.

There's some
understandings about

bullet placement that
might be reflected upon

the cartridge you choose.

That uh, so when you're
looking at maybe using

a lower velocity, uh,
cartridge, still a

centrefire adequate
for the, the job, uh,

because some of the
characteristics, the

terminal performance,
what it does when

it physically hits a
flesh target, what is

what's going to do?

So there are these
things, but again,

uh, effective killing,
absolutely understanding

the, uh, you know,
the need for follow-up

shots, which has
to do with recoil.

Like you were saying,
uh, let's take a little

historical trip, uh, you
know, back not so long in

our historical timeline,
there were no firearms.

Uh, people were using
spears and arrows

and everything else.

And when they look back
historically on some of

the bows that were being
used, a lot of those

bows were about 25 to
40 pound pull weight on

the recurve style bones
made of horn and glue

and sinew and the like.

And What that was, was
getting close enough

to an animal to drive
that arrow in there

to, to make the kill.

There was some, uh,
other, you know, heavier

draw weights, obviously
for the bigger game, but

it all still relied on
getting close, you know,

and making the shot.

So we should never,
ever get too far

outside of that idea.

And when I talk
today, my opinion,

medium to close range.

I don't want to, uh,
there is a bit of a

trend towards these
extreme long distance,

you know, hunting.

Right.

I question the ethics
in it, I don't question

the ethics in it.

Uh, I think if you're
not highly skilled and

the circumstances aren't
considered, I then there

becomes an ethical issue
in it for me, trying

to really reach out.

Well, when you talk
about medium range

and close range, just
for the listener.

Yeah.

Oh, hey that's a good
point, in my mind

I completely know.

So, um, the range is
let's, let's put the

furthest out, we'd say
is maybe 400 yards.

Okay.

Now I say at 400 yards
uh, if you're looking

at ground that doesn't
include a huge ravine

between you and your
objective, um, so that

you can eventually
get to the animal.

I can easily say
that's ethical now

when I push it to 400
yards, have I trained

to shoot that far?

Um, you know, is the, is
the cartridge sufficient?

All these things have to
come into play for that.

Realistic hunting ranges,
my own experience, I

think are under 200.

Most of the
shots I've made.

And in fact, a
remarkable number of

those shots have been
right in that 60 to

a hundred yard range.

Right.

And, uh, you know,
depends on, on the

terrain that you're in
the habitat, the animal

enjoys, all these things
that are there, but,

uh, to be ethical, uh,
to try and keep it at

200 or less is good.

Right.

Be prepared with
shooting sticks, rests

all the other things
to steady that shot.

If you're going to push
it beyond those ranges.

Because there's a few
considerations, not

even just including the
cartridge and the calibre

and the performance of
at that distance if the

animal doesn't go down
right away, trying to

locate again afterwards.

Totally.

And I've watched a few,
you know, uh, shows

where they're shooting
out to seven, 800

yards and they're doing
it across a ravine.

And so now an animal
that's wounded at that

kind of distance, the
time it's going to

take for you to get to
where the animal was

actually hit and then
commence to follow a

blood trail from there.

That's the part that
I really, you know,

that circle doesn't
square for me.

Yeah.

Some animals are going
to leave more of a

blood trail than others.

If they got heavy.

Some cartridges are
going to leave more

of a blood trail.

Right.

And how that bullet
expands within the

animal, it may not exit.

And you know, so it's
just,it's out there.

Well, this is exciting.

Okay.

Well let's try and keep
this at, the target

audience here is if
you're a, you know,

someone who's in the
first couple of years of

hunting or looking to get
out there and you haven't

really made the decision
what cartridge you should

be starting out with.

We want to address that,
or maybe been into this

for four or five years
and you want to branch

out a little bit and
maybe look at, you know,

adding a lever action
rifle and, you know,

large bore to that and
see, you know, some

of the applications.

So we can try and cover
that as we go through.

Did you want to
first talk about

how animals die.

So we can kind of
dispel a couple of those

things before we get
into, or do you want

to get into that after?

And one of the things,
you know, what does

a bullet actually do?

Okay.

You know, and, and how,
how do you kill it?

So the bullet does
a couple things.

It makes direct contact
with elements of the

central nervous system
in the animal, the brain,

the spinal column, um,
and so on, or it makes

direct contact with
organs uh, major blood

vessels and so on.

So in the direct contact
of the bullet, in the

flesh of the animal,
there's a wound channel

going to be created.

Now the diameter or
calibre of the bullet,

you know, at even a
relatively low velocity

that permanent wound
channel, the destruction

of tissue or meat,
uh, will be roughly,

slightly larger than
the bullet itself, that

permanent wound channel.

But as we now add
velocity to that impact,

okay, we start to take a
transference of kinetic

energy to the animal,
and then we start looking

at shock waves going
through the animal.

And those shock waves
can now extend the way

the bullet kills in,
in some other fashion.

So we look at
hydraulic shock and

hydrostatic shock.

Right.

And often those are
interchanged incorrectly.

Hydraulic shock when the
bullet hits the flesh

and starts to move the
fluid particles faster

uh, in that flesh, you
create hydraulic shock.

So this will create
movement of that flesh.

It will, not create
a permanent hole, but

what it will do is
it will create a bit

of a temporary wound
channel that is larger

than that permanent
hole by direct contact.

Right.

Okay.

So if we think in terms
of, if you have the

experience of where
you've seen a bullet hole

in an animal, that's kind
of that jellied bit of

tissue that's around the
bullet hole, that you

know, was part of that,
that temporary wound

cavity that was created
through hydraulic shock.

So that's just the
destruction of tissue

around the permanent
wound channel.

Hydrostatic shock now
is where we take that

same shockwave, but it
delivers through the

tissue of the animal
to where it interrupts,

you know nerves, central
nervous system and so on.

One of the interesting
concepts of hydrostatic

shock, when you talk
about killing is, is

that that knock down
or, or, you know, uh,

immediate, uh, instant
collapse that we might

see in an animal.

Uh, and every hunter
who's got a bit of

experience can talk about
that one time where they

just, the animal just
dropped, like it had

been poleaxed and that's
really a good example of

that instant collapse.

And that typically has
been from some form

of interruption of the
central nervous system,

a shot through the spine
shot through the neck,

um, brain shot, you
know, or a headshot.

Those can almost in
every case caused

that instant collapse.

And that's just
like a light switch

being shut off.

Correct.

But instant collapse can
also happen when we've

hit in certain areas of
the body where there's,

you know, ma major nerve
clusters and so on, which

can also cause that,
but then it can turn

around with that instant
collapse and the animal

returns to its feet
and starts to move off.

So we still need to
consider bullet placement

into areas of the animal,
lungs, heart, and so

on that will, uh, bring
on a rapid or quick

death, uh, and, and,
and, you know, allow us

to get to the animal.

Correct.

So I've, I've always
looked at that and

we've got CNS, central
nervous system, brain,

spinal column, or as
you're saying through

hydrostatic shock
interrupting the

central nervous system,
and that's one way

that's the off switch.

The second way would
be through massive

cardiopulmonary
decompression through

hypovolemic shock.

And that's basically the
pressure in the creature

drops to a point where
it can no longer transfer

oxygen to its brain
and it's good night.

So the fastest way to
introduce that is either

through multiple holes,
like draining a bucket

of water or through
proper shot placement

into heart and lungs.

And then the drain is
within the animal itself.

Right.

It doesn't have
to drain out.

So in the old days when
they were shooting,

you know, musket balls,
muzzle loading, a big

diameter ball that
punched a hole in,

punched a hole out,
you know, without

particularly high
velocity to create

that hydrostatic shock.

Uh, the bigger, the,
the width of the day of

the calibre, you know,
the, the more efficient

it was, to a point.

And those were non
expanding bullets right.

We got to understand
that those, those lead

round balls, you know,
they would deflect,

they would, uh, yaw
in the animal, which

would create a larger
permanent wound cavity.

Uh, the other side to
it was eventually they

went from round balls
to conical bullets,

again, not intended to
expand, but certainly

capable of tumbling, uh,
going into yaw, which

would then take the
round diametre of the

bullet and then turn it
broadside, which would

create a bigger wound
and so on and so forth.

Yaw's not great for
accuracy, but it's great

when it hits an animal.

Right.

And if the bullet travels
accurately and then

begins yaw once it enters
and without getting in

too much of the subject,
that's a military, you

know, uh, desirability,
particularly in a

full metal jacket type
of bullet as well.

So that, that's an
interesting one too.

So we we've had people
talking about full metal

jacket and the different
theories on that.

So originally we had
smooth bores and we're

throwing different
projectiles down,

different materials
down, and someone said,

hey, there's lead, it's
cheap, it's ductal,

it expands on impact.

It's got great sectional
density, which I'm sure

you're going to talk
about in some detail.

A little bit.

A little bit and it's
just not super accurate.

And then they
decided I know what

we're going to do.

Let's spin it.

Let's spin it like we
spin a football when

we throw it and it
will eliminate pitch,

eliminate yaw on the
inherent obstacles of

an object in flight.

And they did that by
introducing rifling

and that rifling worked
awesome until they came

up with some heavier duty
powders, some smokeless

powders, and they found
that they're shoving

that projectile down the
bore so fast and so hard

that it was stripping
past the rifling, that

soft lead and couldn't
engage and some bright

individual said, well,
why don't we keep all

those great properties
of lead, but put a harder

metal jacket around it.

And that's when they
came up with these full

metal jacket cartridges.

And from my research
that I've done full

metal jacket, it's
great, doesn't expand

as well as you'd want.

And when we talk about
the military side, just

as a bit of an aside,
there is a factory

outside of, I think it
was Dum Dum India, and

they decided to basically
expose the tip so that

we no longer had a full
metallic jacket, usually

copper is sometimes
steel or nickel that

went around the bullet.

But we have now an
exposed tip, so to expand

more and do more damage.

And if anyone ever
watched Joe Peshy and

lethal weapon talking
about getting shot

in the hand with a
dum dum round, right,

that's where that,
that term came from.

But for the military
side, they figured out

just was designed to do
more damage than a full

metal jacket cartridge.

And it was a Hague
convention that said.

Yeah, you needed to
send people home and

in, in, uh, you know,
uh, function, more

functional state.

I think they were still
reeling from the civil

war where, because the
lead, instead of the,

you know, of preceding
times lead round ball,

they were again, you
know, large 75 calibre

in some case, you know,
conical led bullets

400, 500 grain bullets.

And just, you know, even
traveling at seven or

800 feet per second,
that would take somebody

in the elbow and just
tear the arm off.

Right.

The transference of
energy of that massive

amount of lead would
create huge damage

to the extremities.

Whereas actually even
taking one of those in

the body, you'd probably
still might get a through

and through penetration,
certainly leak a lot

of blood, but probably
infection was going to

get you in those days.

Right.

So they kind of, towards
the end of the 1800's

with the conical bullets
sort of found around 45

calibre was the optimum.

And playing around again
with it was, it was

that diametre with a
rounded nose was giving

you that hammer like
impact the penetration

that you wanted.

Right.

Again, all lead non
expanding bullets that

would maybe turn into
y'all a little bit.

Maybe they'd hit a bone,
they get a little bit

larger, but they were
giving an effective

permanent wound channel
with penetration.

And that was happening
at velocities, you

know, that were
compatible with lead.

As you say, you move
into full metal jacket.

A lot of what they did
in the military was

they played with those,
um, pointed bullets and

hey, let's just call
them pointed bullets.

Cause nothing was
pointed until they

started to do that.

Right.

Putting things like
aluminum and everything

forward into the point
to change the centre of

gravity of the bullets
so that when it did

penetrate, it tumbled.

Right.

So instead of relying on
a bullet that expanded.

It was tumbling with
it and, you know,

stoner's famous, you
know, 556 cartridge.

Uh, you know, they
talked about the

tumbling bullets in
Vietnam and, and, and

one of the interesting
thing is that 55 grain

hard point bullet, uh,
has the tendency on,

on ballistics is when
it penetrates, it goes

into yaw, the stress
becomes too great on the

cannelure and the bullet
then breaks into pieces.

And just so the listeners
know when we're talking

about yaw, we're talking
about essentially, if

you have a stabilized
bullet in flight

spinning like a football.

It doesn't have yaw
effecting, if that

football's nose starts
making a bit of a

circle and kind of
wobbling around that,

that's essentially yaw.

Yeah, or skidding, you
know, a skidding car,

a car that no longer.

That's a good one.

Travels in a straight
line goes into yaw when

you see those tire marks
where the back tire comes

out off the track of the
front wheels, that's yaw,

going out of alignment.

And then you brought up
another term cannelure.

Cannelure, the shoulder,
the rounded P well,

it's not truly the
shoulder from the

point to where it.

The ogive.

The ogive comes
into the body so.

The ogive is that kind
of, we'll have all of

these on the website.

On the football where
the, in Canadian football

where the white line is.

Yeah.

That's the cannelure.

There you go.

How does that sound from
this point to the fat

part of the football?

All right.

The rim around.

So now we get into this
jacketed bullet thing and

they start playing with
it for a hunting round.

And this is where things
change exponentially.

Up to that point, we're
relying on big diameter

penetrating efficiently.

Well, what happens is
when you get a pointed

bullet, it penetrates in
a much straighter line.

So instead of relying on
the energy transference

to the big diameter,
now we're heading

for the vitals and at
different angles, we can

become more effective.

So by changing the
centre of gravity,

when that bullet can
now become more stable

in flight, but now the
tip is exposed either

in a hollow point or a
little bit of lead at

the end there, as that
now penetrates, the

hydraulic forces of the
flesh push back against

it and the shoulder
of the bullet changes,

which means its centre
of gravity comes back.

You know, we get
like that classic

mushroom shape to
the bullet changes.

So that even though it
was a smaller diameter

when it went in, it
increases, but it

maintains a straighter
trajectory inside of the

animal, which leads us
to the ability to add a

bad angle on an animal,
be able to rely more on

the pointed bullets and
then bullets that have a

boat tail on them that,
uh, will again move

the centre of gravity
forward on the ball.

You get longer
range accuracy.

So we think of it.

We're probably going
above where we want to

be here, maybe a bit.

If we just think
about it like a marker

and a pencil, right?

So the pencil, you
sharpen it up and it's

got nice and pointy
sorta like your, they

call it a pointed or
spitzer bullet, right?

Yes.

And that will penetrate
with greater ease

then would the blunt
marker, but they

would impact energy
in a different way.

And then we got to
factor in something

else, the speed that
the bullet is traveling.

So speed and

Massive.

Weight, speed, and
weight are there.

So as speed goes down
the bill, you know, the,

the, the velocity as it
drops, the more efficient

a flatter or rounder
nose bullet can become.

Sometimes with
expanding bullets, they

also lose, um, their
ability to expand.

Depending on the
structure of the

bullet and how,
you know, toughen

metal you're using.

But I, I just want
to the, we went back

to where we talked
about the, um, uh,

hydrostatic shock.

Right.

Now, hydrostatic
shock needs the right

combination of velocity
and bullet weight.

Right.

Okay.

What happens is a bullet,
as it gets further out

there, and that's what we
got to talk about ranges.

Starts to lose velocity
and then its ability then

to deliver hydrostatic
shock is gone.

The larger the diameter,
in many cases, the

more hydrostatic
shock can be created

at lower velocities.

There you go.

Kind of like punching
the water with a

fist or sticking your
finger into the water.

You're going to
create different

hydrostatic shock.

Correct.

The 30-06 cartridge,
which everybody's

familiar with.

My personal favorite is
the 35 Whelen, which is,

was created initially
as a Wildcat cartridge,

they took the 30-06,
hardly changed a thing,

opened up to take 358
calibre bullet instead

of a 30 calibre bullet.

And every says, well, why
do you want to do that?

Well, of course the
30-06 heavy bullet for

instance, would be 180
grain Spitzer bullet.

And in the case of the
35 Whelen, how about

a 250 grain blow?

So first of all, you
have that heavy bullet,

but what really matters
more than anything

is the diameter
of those bullets.

They both launched
from the rifle at

about 2,500 feet per
second, give or take.

Couple of hundred
feet per second.

So as the bullets get
out there and they

start to drop into that
neighborhood of maybe

2200 feet per second,
the 30-06 will lose the

hydrostatic shock that
it would have retained

at closer ranges and
higher velocities.

Whereas the 35
calibre 358 calibre

is still capable of
hydrostatic shock.

And with almost identical
recoil between the

two rifles, I feel no
difference between my

35 Whelen and a 30-06.

Some people do, but
you know, it is a

consideration and it
seems to be, uh, for

hydrostatic shock
bullets from 243 calibre

to 338, like to be
going more than 2,600

feet per second, to
do that transference.

If you're going to rely
on hydrostatic shock and

you should never have
to rely on it, cause

bullet placement into,
you know, the heart and

lungs is always most
important, but if you're

gonna, you know, you want
everything going for ya.

High velocity with
those size bullets.

Right.

If you're going to get
into closer ranges,

lower velocity, than
you gotta go for width

of calibre, 35 to 45
calibre so there's.

For the
hydrostatic shock.

At lower velocity.

At lower speed.

Takes away range.

In a generality, I need
to buy a hunting rifle

that's going to cover me
for what I'm going to do.

So let's just keep
everything at that

200 yard range and
the common velocity.

So this, we start looking
at the 270 Winchester,

280 Remington, 30-06, 308
Winchester, all of those,

um, in factory loadings
by him across the counter

at your favorite, you
know, ammunition, retail

source, uh, can be
got in a combination

of bullet, weight and
sufficient velocities.

So that all the way
out to 200 yards

hydrostatic shock is
still on your side, along

with penetration and
expansion of the bullets.

A little bit of research
by looking at, you

know, what brand name
you want to pick.

But I mean, you know,
the Hornady, Nosler,

all make ultra high
quality bullets.

Mmm.

Sometimes we're seeing,
you know, um, different

ammunition companies
buying these known

named bullets and
loading them into their

premium ammunition.

It has been my experience
that if you look and

there's a, you know,
a white box or a blue

box, that's 10 bucks
cheaper than all the

other ammo, there's
a reason for that.

And usually what happens
is, is the construction

of the bullet is going
to be disappointing

at ranges beyond 50
yards, they'll all kill

easily and quickly at
50 yards well-placed.

But when you start
getting into strange

angles, non-typical
angles something

other than a broadside
shot, those bullets

tend to let you down.

And it doesn't matter
what calibre they're in.

They shed jackets,
they break apart,

they don't penetrate
deeply enough and

it's a disappointment.

There is all sorts of
theories about, well,

this bullet is really
good all the way out

to 200 yards and then
it falls off and that's

pretty much, you know,
the normal thing.

But then there's other
bullets where people

talk about them at
400 yards, the bullet

performs famously, but
inside of that, over

penetration, no expansion
and so on and so forth.

And it, it
behooves, behooves

I like that word.

Yes, yes.

You know, it will pay off
in spades for you to do

a little bit of research
and put together.

But the optimum is, uh, a
well-constructed bullet,

like an A-MAX bullet
from, you know, Hornady,

uh, that will take
you out there to those

distances ballistically.

Uh, it has a good
ballistic coefficient.

Uh, it will fly well,
it won't go into yaw and

it will expand when it
hits at 50 or it hits

it 250 or 300 yards.

So you're introducing
some new terms like

ballistic coefficient
and I think maybe we

just touch on that after,
but maybe I'll just do

a quick summarization of
will co if, how my mind

works, I usually like
to break things down

into small parts, right.

And then I'll take that
one small part and then

I can branch off after.

So if we talk
about bullet, all

right, so we're not
even talking about

calibre or anything.

We're just talking about
the bullet construction

and something a hunter
would want to know about

would be, how is that
bullet constructed?

So you already talked
about a jacket coming

off, and so that'd be
the full metal jacket

on some of your, the
traditional, you've got

an extruded metal with
lead inside it, uh, when

it hits an object, if
it falls apart inside

the animal, you're,
that energy that it

would be transferring is
going to be a lot less.

You're gonna have
fragmentation going

through, which could
work in your advantage.

But if you really want
to get that hydrostatic

shock that you're
talking about, and that

penetration, you want
to hold it together.

So bullet construction,
we've got partitioned

bullets where they
had the bottom part of

the bullet that would.

Remain solid.

Right.

Or an A-frame
style bullet.

Or bonded.

Bonded.

And that that's
the, so the original

jacketed bullet was
a cup and core model.

Cup and core.

Okay.

So they made a cup out of
thin jacketing material.

Molten lead got poured
in there, bit a molten

lead appeared at the tip.

The hydraulics of
penetration would push

against that lead tip.

The copper would
open up a bit.

The lead would mushroom
and at too much of a

velocity, it would just
shed that copper thin

copper jacket, somewhere
on the original entry.

And then the led blob
now, which is what

it would amount to,
would continue on

its penetrative path.

Uh, so then the idea
through all sorts of

proprietary methods,
they're bonding the

jacket and the lead
together, they're

changing the lead,
you know, the antimony

content of the lead
so that it bonds

better, all sorts of.

Ways to hold it together,
the partition or a

monolithic bullet.

Yeah.

Now that's the thing
like, you know, no led

a tall, we're talking
copper, copper alloy

combinations now,
uh, that have some

huge benefit, uh, the
barns and, and, uh,

the GMX bullets from
Hornady where they.

What they really have is
the ability to penetrate

at crazy angles.

And crazy angles,
you know, you, we all

like to look at the
target downrange, the

piece of paper, the
one dimensional piece

of paper that has
that animal standing

broadside, looking at
you and truth be known,

a properly placed shot
from virtually any

centrefire cartridge, at
those kinds of angles,

will get to the heart.

It just has to get maybe
through a rib that might

be the most in, and if
you're lucky, it goes

between the ribs, but
it penetrates in there.

And that's why, yeah
you could kill a moose

with a 243 Winchester.

But now as soon as that
moose turns, you know,

away from you, so instead
of the broad side, now

you're kind of looking
at a three quarter angle,

you know, to try and get
in penetration in the

line that it follows.

And those all copper or
monolith type bullets

are the answer to them.

You know, the, uh, to
that penetration effect.

There's another name
that they're giving

them to the homogeneous.

Yes.

Homogeneous, homogeneous.

Homogeneous.

That same throughout.

Yeah.

And, and so, again, the
change with those is

typically if you were
shooting a particular

weight of bullet for
the calibre of the

cartridge that you're
firing, when you get into

these monoliths bullets,
because there's no jacket

to separate or shed away
yet they're engineered

to expand, often we
see is to go lighter.

So if you're shooting
a 180 grain, 30 caliper

go to a 165 grain,
you get a very similar

performance and, you
know, the increase in

velocity to, to help.

I mean, there, the bad
angle thing is there.

Sometimes they can
transfer more energy

than a traditional
jacketed lead bullet.

You know, so at closer
ranges sometimes the,

you know, the, the
hydrostatic shock can

cause a little bit of
gut rupture or other

things like that.

Well what those, those
monolithic bullets not

having lead in them, not
having that sectional

density or that, that
weight behind it in

order to get more weight
into them, they can't

make them larger in
diameter because the

calibre is a calibre.

They got to make
them longer.

Right.

And when they make
them longer, they were

finding a couple of
problems with them.

So they're finding
that you had more

bearing surface on the
bore as it went down.

And so you've got some
drag and you, they were

more susceptible to yaw.

We got some smart
people make an ammo

and they've come up
with some solutions to

that and they've got
little speed grooves

and, um, they, they cut
grooves so they've got

less bearing on a bore
as it goes through.

And, and, and again,
lightening the

bullet up as well.

Right.

You know, allows you
to introduce that spin

from the rifling, you
know, more rapidly,

more efficiently.

There's all, you know,
the engineering that's in

this it's, you know, from
the days of guys taking

a, a 22 casing and then
actually forming their

own jacket from that, you
know, in their garage.

And a lot of guys
were, you know, the,

the founding names
of Nosler and Hornady

and all those guys.

They were garage
experimenters, you

know, but they've
since hired very,

very established, uh,
knowledgeable engineers

to move themselves on.

So we've talked a bit
about the bullet as in,

how it's made up, so.

And what it does and
what we achieve, what

we want to achieve.

But the other things
in the bullet.

So if we'd look at the
basic construction,

there's going to be
weight of the bullet and

why that's important.

And I think you got some,
some thoughts on that.

And.

Diameter of the bullet.

Diameter of
the bullet and.

But you know, it's.

And speed.

And speed right,
the velocity.

So all of those, how
do we work with that.

Well, let's never
forget shot placement,

whatever you're shooting,
you need to put it

where you want it.

Right.

So when I talk about
bad angles, I know

where I want the bullet
to go, but it's not in

a traditional sense.

I've got to get to the
heart and lungs, but

I may be doing that
by going through the

floating rib and the
diaphragm, or maybe,

you know, risking now I
have a texas heart shot,

which means the animal's
not presenting itself,

anything other but square
on, on its backside.

So now I'm going to have
to shoot into its ham,

losing that meat, but
maybe I'll, I'll hit,

uh, the, uh, artery.

Okay.

That's in there, the
femoral artery to try and

bring the animal down.

You know, there's all
these considerations.

Sure.

Shot placement,
understanding where

to put your shots.

So sometimes you're
hedging your bet by

going with these better
constructed bullets.

Generally speaking,
spend good money

on your ammunition.

Yes.

The cheaply constructed
cup and core bullet.

Great for punching a hole
in the paper or ringing

the gong, but um bringing
home, you know, the

winter supply meat, you
know what, that meat is

worth, how much to you in
the end, the ammunition

should be worth, you
know, the time it takes

to get the better.

I mean, not everybody's
going to hand load

other handloading
changes the whole thing.

The perspective
is gone now, you.

Sure.

You pick and choose
what you want.

The, you know, the
world's your oyster

when you handload.

Hand loading going back
to the old days was done

because there was really
poor animal selection.

Even in this time of,
you know, like today.

Absolutely, today
there's probably less,

uh, stock available to
you, it's still good.

Well we have quality
ammo, that's for sure.

We never, it was never
like this before.

If this had been me
starting out, I probably

would have never got
into hand loading.

You know, we've been
just as easy to buy

it off the shelf.

Kind of, we need to get
back though, the general

rule, a good quality
ammo, well-placed shot

velocity of sufficient,
um, to create some

hydrostatic shock
along with, uh, with an

expanding bullet should
cover most of the big

game hunting situations
in British Columbia.

So.

North America for
that matter, but.

We talk about a couple
of things and we'll

throw it up on, on
the blog as well.

So people can have
a cross-reference

sectional density.

Sectional density is
a, when you, when you

look it's, it's, it's
a numerical value

assigned basically
to the penetrative

effect of a bullet.

So without getting into,
you know, measuring its

length and its diameter
and its weight and, and

squaring those, and you
know, all the stuff that.

The easiest way to
really think about

it is how heavy is it
compared to another

cartridge made at, at
something different.

Another bullet made
at as some maybe

lighter material.

Yeah.

So sectional density
is the, uh, the ratio

of an object's mass
to its cross sectional

area with respect
to a given access.

If that makes sense.

So is it heavy?

Right.

Can we get something
in that diameter

that's heavier,
it'll have a greater

sectional density.

If it's lighter of the
same diameter, it'll have

less sectional density.

Yeah.

So when you're looking
at the catalog at these

bullets, they will
always have the weight

in grains, they will have
the calibre of course and

then it will say SD in
BC, sectional density is

important to the hunter.

BC is important to
accuracy, so ballistic

coefficient is important.

That number is
important to you.

You will that low
ballistic coefficient

number, basically how
slippery that bullet

is, how aerodynamic
it is, becomes

important for distance.

So the bigger, the
number, the more

aerodynamic that is.

For for, for ballistic
coefficient, just

how well it can,
how streamline

that bullet is.

So, and that's when
you're talking about

the pointed ones
being more streamlined

or the boat tail.

And the boat tail with
the, and centre of

gravity and everything
else, you know, is, is

a factor there to make
that slippery bullet, get

out there and travel on
the line that you want.

Right.

Sectional d, so
ballistic coefficient

gets it there.

Sectional density is
now what you're going to

rely on once it arrives.

Once it gets there.

That's your
terminal ballistics.

Yeah.

And ballistics
are always, you

know, internal, you
know, in flight,

terminal ballistics.

You know, you can look
at it all different

ways, but sectional
density has a lot to

do with termination.

Man you got a lot
of information.

Yeah.

You know, there is, and.

We gotta make this.

That's what
blows it away.

So now getting
back to it.

Yeah.

Good sectional density.

Uh, and it, it typically,
uh, all game is looked

at in North America
in particular is, you

know, class one, two
and three and four.

So class one, small game,
uh, coyotes, varmints,

uh you know, bunnies,
that sort of stuff.

And so a relatively
low sectional

density is just fine.

So, uh, something like a
223, uh, round, um, any

of those are just fine.

Then we move
into class two.

So medium-sized game,
antelope, they always

throw antelope in there,
but we don't have any

in BC, but, um, you
know, something in

the domestic goat size
is slightly larger.

So everything from
white tail deer, black

tail, uh, mule deer, uh,
black bear, uh, would

we in that medium size.

And so a sectional
density that typically

is in that range of,
oh, about, you know,

250 works, nice,
you know, 250 and a

little bit higher,
uh, sectional density,

um, you know, going
on and up from there.

Um, you know, we have a
range, I mean, basically

sectional density
from 220 to, oh, maybe

two, you know, 200.

That's all good for
that medium game.

The next larger,
class three game,

that's moose and elk.

Uh, when you know
those type of animals,

you want a greater
sectional density.

So the high 200
numbers, for sure.

You want to look for
something that's going

to come in 275 or
better .275 and better.

And you know, some of
the shockingly small

calibres, like the
6.5 has amazingly good

sectional density.

And that comes from
this long pencil bullet,

uh, that has a great
penetrative effect.

Uh, but the classics, you
know, when you compare,

um, one of the greatest
cartridges really in the

Magnum class is the 338
Winchester Magnum, great

sectional density in all
ranges of it's bullets.

The 300 Winchester
Magnum another great

one right across the
board for everything

from, you know, uh,
depending on the bullets,

but getting back to
the standard classes.

Uh, and we look at the
heavier weight, the 308

Winchester, 180 grain,
30-06, uh, 200 grain.

You can get good
sectional density,

and that's a really
adequate cartridge

for moose and elk.

So let's, let's break
this down a little

bit and let's say
we've got something

that's heavy, right?

Let's see, we've got
a bowling ball and

we rest that bowling
ball on our foot.

Yeah.

That's not going to
do too much damage.

Let's say we pick it
up a foot or so above

our foot, we drop it.

Okay, that's not going
to feel too good.

And we pick it up
above our head and

drop it on her foot.

We'd be lucky if we
don't break our foot.

So, we're dealing
with gravity.

Gravity affects
everything at the

same rate, 32 feet per
second, or 9.8 meters

per second squared,
per second, per second.

So that is creating
velocity in the bowling

ball as it's coming down.

So just one way, I guess,
kind of look at it,

let's say we're talking
about our projectile now.

So we've talked with
a sectional density,

so looked at different
bullet construction.

So now we've got a heavy
object that's going

out, but it's going very
slowly when it impacts

we're going to have
maybe less penetration,

but maybe different
transference of energy

than it would if it's
going out really quickly.

Really quickly, you
talked about the primary

and secondary cavitation.

Yes.

I think you use
a different word.

Hydraulic and hydrostatic
shock that, that falls.

So if we go to a
very big, heavy,

slow bullet, we get
the hydraulic shock.

It's still there.

Okay.

Yep.

And sometimes penetration
with those heavier

bullets is just the fact
that retained energy

harder to slow it down.

Okay.

So you might be able
to, your kid comes

racing at you on his BMX
bike, and he's coming

at you at 20 kilometres
an hour and your kid

weighs 60 pounds.

The bike weighs 40
pounds and you grab

him by the handlebars
so you can stop him.

Right?

Right.

Okay.

So now the kid is
now grown up a little

bit and he's on his
175 CC motorcycle and

he's coasting at you..

Now that motorcycle
weighs a couple of

hundred pounds, the
kids 150 pounds,

try and stop that at
the same velocity.

Right.

When it gets there.

So, you know, we are
seeing how that weight

of the bullet can go on.

Right.

So let's say a 35
calibre to a 45 calibre

bullet driven at a
lower velocity maybe,

or, you know, less than
2000 feet per second.

You get that good
penetrative effect

by that heavy bullet.

Right.

Now, another thing
you can do to get

something out of that
bullet is to increase

the frontal surface
of the bullet, make it

out around, or meplat.

Right.

French word.

We've got to give
credit to the French.

We don't give enough
credit to the French.

They.

They get enough credit.

They were the
ballistic forerunners

of the 1800's.

They were.

And they were coming up
with the idea of, uh,

of a 60% flat frontage
of the overall diameter

of the bullet for
efficiency transfer of

energy at low velocity.

Uh, followed up by
the great Elmer Keith

in the, you know,
when his development

of the 44 special
end of the 44 Magnum

as a pistol calibre
hunting bullet, the

idea was non expanding,
all lead bullet, big

flat front, 60% of
the overall diameter.

Which puts us into
this, hey, I want to

get a closer range rifle
and you know, you can

get a lever action.

Traditionally, everybody
looks at the 30-30.

30-30 Winchester killed
a lot of game in north

America, all kinds.

And one of the things
that, uh, you know,

traditionally because
of the tubular magazine,

there was a blunt or a
round nose front to the

bullet, lower velocities.

And we would see in
some of the other

centrefires that are out
there, but it worked.

Because of that big front
end on the bullet helped

to transfer the energy
as it went through 44

Magnum lever action.

It's a shockingly
good close range.

And I mean, and with
an all led bullet,

shockingly good for,
you know, the sub 100

yard ranges, really
not so good once we

push past a hundred.

So when we look
at weight, and

we look at speed.

The interesting
thing with speed, is

that you square the
energy, essentially.

Right.

So if you double the
weight of your projectile

going out, you'll double
the energy transfer, but

if you double the speed,
it's that speed squared.

And that's what you can
get greater penetration

with greater speeds.

And I think this is where
a lot of people Sterk.

The difficulty that
people have is number

one, they start looking
at the physics and

they look at the math
and they're trying to

apply that to something
that may be a moving

or stationary object at
unknown distances, with

unknown makeups and all
of this extra stuff kind

of comes in and then it
becomes the great debate.

So hoping not to have
the great debate with the

listeners here, but just
letting them know some

of the variables that
kind of come into play.

I mean we've talked lots
about it and like you

say, let it, but now
let's take the great

debate and dumb it down.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

So what should I buy?

Well, see that 30-06
rifle right there.

You like it cause it
looks good, it's a

high quality, you know,
modern bolt action 30-06.

You don't have to
look any further son.

You're there.

There you go.

You got it.

That's the short answer.

And that is the
short answer.

But then the next
answer is well how

about that 308?

Why shouldn't
they buy that?

Well, absolutely no
reason whatsoever.

What's the main distance,
or difference between

the 308 and the 30-06?

It's that heavy bullet
thing in the end.

And what is, so
we've got three laws

from Newton, right?

What, first law is
an object in rest

tends to stay at rest.

An object in motion
tends to stay in

motion unless affected
by some other force.

Uh, law two is to
do with the, uh,

energy essentially.

Uh, it's the, the amount
of acceleration of a

body is proportional
to the acting force and

inversely proportional
to the best the object.

And third law is one
that everyone knows

is for every action,
there's an equal and

opposite reaction.

So law two and
three play into this

decision because.

Recoil.

And, you know, I look at
my Chuck Hawk's recoil

table here and let me
just see what he, oh,

see what he assigns to
the 30-06 as opposed

to the 308 Winchester.

Yeah, Chuck was
a pretty prolific

writer wasn't he?

Oh yeah.

And I mean, I think he,
he actually stole a lot

of the stuff too, but
as, and let me just.

Everyone does.

Let me just
put in a plug.

If you got a question
relating to firearms or

fighter aircraft, you
just put that question

in and then add the
words Chuck Hawks.

And you will come
up with some plain

language information
of great value.

Okay.

So let's go hunting with
our, uh, 308 Winchester,

180 grain bullet, uh,
being driven at 2,800

feet per second, the
recoil fell, which

has felt recoil.

Uh, it gets an assigned
number of 17.5.

With the 30-06 at 180
grains uh, it's 20.3.

So let's go for instance.

So you get a
bit more recoil.

A bit and really,
yeah, not much.

So if you take it down
to, um, the recoil that

you would get from the
absolute smallest, uh,

centrefire cartridge,
uh, like 17 Hornet or

218 Bee, you might get
1.3 or 0.7 felt recoil.

Which is nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

No, it barely, uh,
over a 22 long rifle.

To go to the other end
of the scale and let's

go for kind of a common,
the 375 H&H Magnum,

a long, lived, a big,
heavy hitting Magnum.

It's going to rate about
37 to 40 on that scale.

I think that's your
minimum for big game

hunting over in Africa.

Yeah, in a lot of cases.

And you know, the
375 H&H depending on

how you load, it will
cover everything from

Dik-Dik to, you know,
Cape Buffalo and, uh,

you know, they, they,
it's all about what

you load in there.

But, you know, as
generalities speaking,

you know, with recoil.

So recoil should
be a consideration

and honestly hard
pressed to feel the

difference between
a 308 and a 30-06.

And I think for a
brand new person kind

of getting into it.

They shouldn't
worry about that.

The most offensive
things from a firearm

are gonna be the noise.

Yeah.

Right.

How loud is this saying?

And putting a muzzle
break on is a sure-fire

way to make enemies with
everybody around you,

because you're going to
hear a lot more noise

and recoil, does this
thing kick like a mule?

And there are things
that people can do to.

Fit the gun to
you properly.

That's the biggest one.

Fit it.

Yeah.

Fire it.

Wait.

So when you talked
about felt, recoil is

not that recoil changes
on a heavier firearm

other than the fact
that it's dissipated

over a longer period
of time and it makes

it hard snap feel like
more of a harder shove

and that could make it
more manageable as well.

And it's a game of length
of pole, you know, from

the trigger face to
the buttstock, we all

are, you know, that's
established by you from

your fingertip to the
crook of your elbow is

your length of pole.

So you need to
get in there.

Um, this is the wonder
of today's modern stocks

that come adjustable.

Right.

You know, they either
come in a telescoping

fashion with a
pistol grip on them.

A lot of those
are quite good.

There's other ones
where you can take

all the spacers out
of the buttstock and

shorten or lengthen.

You can change the height
of the comb for your

cheek weld to line up all
these things you can, and

you should, you should
buy that kind of stock.

In the old days, you,
you bought your beautiful

piece of, uh, you know,
American Walnut and then

you had the gunsmith
whiz off or add to put

a new recoil pad or
whatever the case and,

and you move from there.

But today you can
do it in the comfort

of your home.

And you can take, you
know, the allen keys

that come with the
stock set and go to

the range and practice.

And again, I always
say too long of a gun

will never work, but
if the length of pole

is too small, a big guy
can always shoot it.

Right.

Just.

Big person.

Just, just watch how
you hold it so you don't

punch yourself in the
face with your thumb.

I'll share a tip from
an adjustable stock.

I remember one of my
first adjustable stocks

that I got and I saved up
and I spent more money so

I can get a quick adjust
one so I can just press

the button and I can
adjust the comb height.

I can adjust the height,
the length of pull on it.

And typically
they cost more.

And I thought this was
just fantastic until I

accidentally press that
button and everything's

adjusted out on me when
I needed it the most.

I would say, if you're
getting into it, save

your money, spend the
time to adjust it to you

properly have something
that just hard locks in,

and then you're done.

Unless you're planning on
having everyone and their

dog, shoot after you.

Get it set to yourself.

Save the money.

Hey, did I ever
mentioned before that

I like simplicity?

Mhmm.

A lot less goes wrong
when it's simple.

And same thing, I'm
dead on with scopes.

I don't need a scope
that's got a rangefinder

built in there and
a whole bunch of

other stuff to, you
know, confuse and

attract my attention
within the field.

You know, in a long
range, target shooting

competition who cares?

Uh, you know, training
as a professional, as

a sniper who cares?

Holy smokes,
that's a deer.

I just want to be able
to bring that gun up,

get a good cheek weld
and away I go from there.

So keeping simplicity.

But we're getting back
to, Hey, sectional

density, the available
sectional density in that

308 or that 30-06 takes
you all the way into

the class three animal.

No problem.

If you want to get up
where you might want to

be considering dangerous
game, then really, since

they took grizzly bear
out of the picture, uh,

here in BC kind of leaves
us with may, I don't

think so much bison is
dangerous game, but it

certainly, there's a
lot of tissue there that

you have to consider.

So of course the 30-06 is
way better at launching

a 220 grain bullet,
uh, based on case

capacity and overall
case length, then you

would get from the 308.

But if you're going
to be a moose hunter,

you're going to
be a deer hunter.

You're going to be, you
know, a mountain goat

hunter, certainly the
three-way or 30-06 are

totally interchangeable
for the rest.

Maybe you want
to get some more

range out of it.

Maybe you're gonna
look at 'em right.

Later let's talk
about that, but let's

stick with these
standard calibres.

And I call the standards,
the 308 Winchester,

30-06 Springfield,
270 Winchester.

You take the 30-06,
ya narrow the case

down at the mouth.

You reduce the,
the calibre.

And first of all, you
get higher speed bullet.

So the trajectory of
the bullet is flatter.

So therefore, you know,
your considerations as

range increases, uh,
there's less issues

with hold and placement.

You get a little
bit more from the

270 in that realm.

So a 270, uh, in the
heavier grain bullets

at 150 or 140 grain
will certainly get you

in that, uh, mid range
of the 200 numbers in

sectional density, like
260 to 275 or better in

those weight bullets.

So perfectly adequate
for moose, shot moose

with 270, no problem.

Uh, good penetrative
effect, uh, good

expansion on the bullet.

It was there.

Now, those were moose
shot at well under

a hundred yards.

Uh, if I was now
looking at a moose at

400 yards, would I be
thinking that my 270

would be adequate for it?

And I might question
that a little bit

more because remember
these light bullets,

once they get out to.

Energy.

To distance.

Now, the other thing
though, that you can,

you know, if you're
going to retain energy

out there, that's good.

But the construction of
the bullet, these super

long distance hunting
bullets are very soft

metals so that they
still, you know, will

retain their super good
accuracy out there,

get their penetrative
effect and you will

get, um, expansion
from low velocity.

Normally you need
velocity to get

the expansion, that
velocity is getting

lost with distance.

Um, but softer
metal, the ELD.

Hornady's.

Hornady's ELDX I'll
tell you I just

loaded a bunch.

And the first thing
that happened was I

noticed a ring forming
above the cannelure.

Yeah.

I immediately
called up my friend

who's very familiar
with the product.

And so what's going
on and I had to get a

different bullet plug
for my dye so that it

didn't mark the ogive.

So, uh, currently have
that installed at home,

gonna load it up because
I wasn't overly impressed

with the accuracy of,
of the bullet and.

The factory stuff's
pretty damn good.

And yes.

And it could have
very much been that

big indentation in.

That I'm sure
had some effect.

So at any rate, getting
back to standard calvers

270 grade, what happened
was Remington looked

at the success that
Winchester had with that

270 cartridge and they
made a 7mm version of

it, you know, basically
taking the same dimension

cartridge and increasing
it to some millimeter.

And the wonder of the
7mm bullet is it's

sectional density.

It's just, it's,
you know that.

It just sounds dirty when
you say it like that.

I know, but it's just
that length of the bullet

and everything else and
the 280 Remington, which

is the saddest thing in
the world never beat out

the 270 Winchester, but
that's a great cartridge

man, oh man, if you've
got a 280 and the way

to go now it's actually
a 280 Ackley Improved

and it's just slightly
different dimensionally.

You can load 280
Remington in there,

you shoot it.

And then it'll fire
form to the chamber,

but there's no problems
in initially starting

out with 280 Remington
cartridges, factory

loaded by our them, what
a great, great cartridge.

Totally overlooked
by so many people.

And a great long range.

You're very
effective you know.

So there's one piece
of the puzzle here

that I think would be
good to talk about.

I think it was Townsend
Whelen, ascribed.

My hero.

For energy, uh, a 1000
foot pounds of energy for

putting down most deer.

And I think it was about
1500 . For like elk.

Elk, moose.

And moose and.

Bison.

When people look at their
ammunition that they

get from the factory.

There's going to be
either on the box or

they can go online and
check it out and they'll

have the average energy.

Right?

So you've talked
about internal and

external and terminal
ballistics, internal

ballistics, being
everything that happens

inside the firearm,
the primers hit the

powders, burdening the
projectiles going out.

It's all internal.

We've talked about
external ballistics,

everything that
happens the second and

leaves the firearm.

Gravity.

Everything.

Affecting, humidity,
elevation, wind, all

of these things in
terminal ballistics,

as it hits the animal.

And so they see the
factory can't account

for every little variance
or length of barrel or,

but they'll, they'll
give you a good, fairly

close generalization.

Like a grounding yeah.

Right.

And they'll say, hey,
at this distance, here's

how much energy your
projectile should have.

So if you start looking
at these charts and you

just kinda use the swag
system, the scientific

wild ass guess and say,
well, it's going to be

about this distance.

Will it have that energy?

Will I I'm
shooting on a deer?

Will it have a thousand
foot pounds of energy?

Well, yes.

Guess what?

You've got a cartridge
that would be applicable

for deer hunting
within that range.

I think that's
a quick way.

And that's a good, yes,
I totally liked that.

And you know, so you
look at the box and

you know, it's leaving
it out 3000 pounds or

whatever the case may
be, but certainly we'd

like to say it hits
with a ton of energy

at a hundred yards.

So you're still double
what you need for a

deer at 200 yards, it's
hitting, you know, pretty

much at a time, you know,
308 hits with a ton at

200 yards, 150 grain.

And then once you push
it out to 300, it might

be dropping down and
you've still got more

than you need with a
308 or a 30-06 in that

medium weight bullet
loading, 150 grain, 165,

you you're, you're good.

So, take comfort
in picking the

308, take comfort.

Uh, it, well, one of the
things that has always

hurt a cartridge is if it
was never adopted by long

distance target shooters.

Or military.

Or military to some
degree, but the 308,

oh, became the love
child for so many long

distance target shooters.

And then they started
to change it around.

Oh, good old 30-06
became the base for

hunting cartridges.

It was the best known.

And I think in a
lot of cases, pretty

good in the United
States, the best known

hunting cartridge had
started as a military.

Right.

The 270, wasn't a long
distance target shooting,

but it was a great long
distance north American

game cartridge, the 35
Whelen, another variant

of the 30-06, you know,
the 338-06, another

big bullet coming out
of a necked up 30-06,

never was a long range
target cartridge.

Well along comes the 308.

And the next thing,
you know, 243, they

neck that down.

And man, you got a
great long range target

shooting cartridge.

243 gets super popular as
a light deer cartridge.

In addition to of
Armenian cartridge

and long distance.

Then the 6mm start
to show up and, you

know, without doing
too much wild, some

cases, they actually
cut the case down.

They use the,
the same head and

completely reformed
a case out of it.

But then, you know,
stuff like this, you

know, the 6mm's just
couldn't get ignored.

The 260 Remington, uh,
you know, and so on where

this smaller bullet, you
know, was doing wonderful

things at long ranges
for target shooters.

Well Europe.

Europe they have
the 6.5 x 55, right?

Well yes!

And here

It's like 1800.

Was this crazy thing
I remember all the

surplus rifles, it
would, people would buy.

Guys would turn up
with these 6.5 Swedes.

That's what it's called.

6.5 Swedes.

Yeah.

Mouser action.

And oh, kill
moose, like crazy.

And you look at this
thing and it, this.

Like, how does this
to kill a moose?

This, this hideously
long, skinny little

pencil bullet in there.

Yeah.

Two words,
sectional density.

That's how it works.

So now today, the new
kid on the block, it's

a 6.5 while there's
it's being surpassed a

little bit, but the 6.5
Creedmoor and then the,

uh, the PRC, the 6.5 PRC,
they are using sectional

density to the nth degree
in a super low rate.

You know relatively
speaking.

And here's the other
kicker target shooters

want repetitive accuracy.

They like a nice
stiff action.

Well, if you take an
inch or two out of the

overall length of the
action, it stiffens up

and you know, people
say, well, why does the

308 Winchester seem to
be a little bit more

accurate than the 30-06?

Well it's that stiffness
of the receiver.

The short action.

Short action could be
one of those things.

Now there's a huge
argument too, in throwing

the length of the action
in the heat of battle.

And although I have
used that as an excuse

for myself, I don't
think it's true.

I really, maybe if
you're trying to throw

a bolt on a, you know,
378, uh, Whetherby

Magnum or something,
those are, that's a

long throw on that bolt.

There are some
places where an

inch matters, but.

Yeah.

I don't know
if it's there.

But again, so
stiff, stiff action,

308 accurate.

So a lot of people are
looking at the 6.5 and

when you read the hunting
magazines and the writers

and everything else,
everybody's liking it a

lot, but there's more and
more coming back about

some failures on elk
and moose size animals.

Even though the
numbers look like

they should work.

Right.

A bit, a bad shot
placement is not helping.

I think one of the
big things about

these, like the 6.5.

So a few years back,
I reached out to

International Barrels.

They make premium
high grade rifle,

barrels team really
good at what they do.

And I had a 260,
great calibre.

Yes.

And I thought it was
on a Seiko 85, a friend

gave me and I said,
well, let's, let's

try putting a 6.5
Creedmore on this thing.

See how your barrels
work and see how

this thing shoots.

Because I figured I
wanted to set the thing

up and let my wife
or my kids shoot it

because it is a lighter
recoiling cartridge.

Oh a 260's a bit of a
vicious bastard, it's.

Well the 6.5 is
a little nicer.

Yeah.

But that 260 boy,
that's surprising

for what it is hey.

So I ended up keeping
it for myself.

I liked it so much
and they got, they

got their own, but it
come, came down to,

for them particularly.

Shot placement
and the ability to

manage that recoil
and feel comfortable

shooting that firearm.

My, my daughter, she's
going to be 14 and a

couple of months here and
she fired about 10 rounds

off the, standing off
a bi-pod a round after

round having the time of
her life saying, oh, this

is so much fun to shoot.

So I, I think while there
are lovers and haters of

different calibres and
cartridges, if people

can understand the energy
transference at distance,

if they can understand
shot placement, if they

can understand that
maybe it's time to pony

up a couple of bucks and
get the better, maybe

bonded ammo or monolithic
ammo, or do their own

research and make.

Those those are going
to be well, that's

going to be the
dominant, uh, cartridge.

I honestly think, I think
probably the 6.5 PRC.

It's probably going to.

It's picking up isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

It's in the, you know,
so again, without having

the tables in front
of me, just to me, you

know, but the, the, the
writers, the, you know,

they say, if you already
own a 6.5 Creedmoor, you

probably won't appreciate
the difference.

But if you're thinking of
buying a 6.5 Creedmoor,

a lot of the writers are
saying now, and maybe you

should get the 6.5 PRC
because it's going to be

just that much better.

It's going to edge
it out in the end.

And therefore what will
happen is, you know,

bullet selections will
be identical between the

two they're loading the
same bullets, but it's

case capacity in, in
what you can establish

from the PRC that
that might make it the

better hunting bullets.

And it'll, it'll have
more velocity in that

one too, doesn't it?

Yeah.

So, so those, those
factors are going

to play into it, you
know, you're, you

could kill yourself by
trying to stay on top

of all these trends.

And I did for the
longest time kinda buy

different cartridge,
you know, chamberings

for my different rifles
and then base hunt's

around that and, and.

So I go back to my,
my deer and black

bear cartridge is
a 308 Winchester.

I, uh, I, I love the
rifle that it's in,

in particular and God
bless the good people at

Ruger for their designs.

And I love that rifle.

Um, but that is
my that's my go-to

medium game cartridge.

I like to shoot
iron sights and

therefore, I like to
get a little closer.

So I do love my
30-30 Winchester.

I use the Hornady, um, GM
GMX bullet, the, the, uh,

the, the gummy bear tip.

Uh, but, uh, I have
duplicated, you

know, through my hand
loading the same as

the factory Hornaday
lever evolution 30-30

and you know what that.

Talk about
bullet placement.

I usually make a
neck shot and that

bullet is just, that
really does give that

knockdown appearance
to that cartridge.

And I'm talking range
is a 45 to 60, 70 yards,

but boy, it works.

And yet I confidently
can shoot my rifle,

my 30-30 lever
action to 200 yards.

And I know that bullet
will transfer enough

energy to still do the
job at two at 200 yards.

I think there's a lot
to be said for that

old saying beware the
person with one gun.

Yeah.

And I'm not, I'm not
though, but yeah.

But what I'm saying
is don't, rather than

chasing all the new
cartridges, you found

about one gun for
certain situations that

you're comfortable, you
know, you know, it's

got the energy, you
know, you can shoot it.

Uh, and, and
what I've done.

So in my, my, my big
calibre is the 35

Whelen, and it's really,
those are the three

centrefires that I use.

And with that 35 Whelen,
I started playing

around now with a
lighter weight bullet,

traditionally shot at 250
grain partition bullet

out of that for moose.

I started playing around
with a 200 grain and

now a monolith bullet,
uh, TTSX, uh, Barnes,

TTS, TTSX bullet, which
significantly increases

velocity, and therefore
takes it from a, a 200

to 250 yard rifle out
into more than capable

at 350 to 400 yards.

The retained energy of
that bullet is that.

The ex, you know, and
it's now the diameter

of the bullet that
gives me what I need

as the velocity drops.

The diameter is up
there, so it works, you

know, I'm waiting for
Hornady to get on the

stick and make a better
358 calibre bullet.

The only one they make
now would be for, you

know, something like
a, a 35 Remington, a

lever action, style
bullet, but they're

not really making it a
good, uh, you know, good

ballistic coefficient,
boat tail bullet for,

for that sort of stuff.

Well, how about a
couple of, uh, questions

that club members
have put forward?

Because couple club
members caught wind

and one question was.

Do you want your bullet
to transfer all of

its energy into the
animal and stop inside?

Or would you personally
prefer to see it go

through and through
and perhaps create a

better blood trail for
tracking afterwards?

What are your
thoughts on that?

That's a good question.

I would rather see my
animal just drop with

one shot, literally no
blood trail or anything.

Oh totally.

That typically comes from
that huge transfers of

energy within the animal.

Okay.

A well-placed shot,
um, in the ribs will

probably be a through
and through shot.

It's gonna, it's gonna,
you know, if, if you've

got enough retain energy
that's in there, 180

grain is going to push
right out the other

side of a deer for sure.

150, 165.

Um, I did see a 150,
um, Nosler ballistic

tip, uh, stayed in the
chest cavity of the

deer, one that I shot.

I gotta tell you when
it's deer, I shoot it

in the neck, unless I'm
risking that I think I

might, you know, knock
a great antler off of

a good, you know, a
trophy type of head,

but most, you know, if
we're hunting meat, cause

there's really a lack
of, um, meat waste for

an neck shot and, and
most of those standard

calibres just, you know,
you're gonna, you get

the ganglia, the, you
know, all the other

stuff that's in the
neck, the processes in

the neck, just make that
such an effective shot.

Well.

I say that.

Yes.

To answer the question,
I'm off track.

I want the bullet to
transfer as much energy

to the animal as possible
in the first instance.

So you want it to
stop in the animal.

I would like it to,
so if, if I'm making

a, you know, um, uh,
a hilar type shot, you

know, maybe forward of
the shoulder and, and

yes, I definitely want
to have that happen

because I want it all.

I want, I'm firing into
those nerve clusters

and the bunched up
portion that's going

to bring on that, you
know, catastrophic drop

that I want to achieve.

Yeah.

So that's going
to come from that.

If I got too much and
that's going to come from

combination of expansive
effect of the bullet and

the energy and speed of
the bullets all there.

If I got a little bit
too much speed, too

much velocity on the
bullet it's going to

blow through, then I got
the ability to track.

And that typically
when you say you're

already almost always
setting yourself up

for failure, when you
say, well, I want to

be able to track it.

You see in Europe,
they actually pick

different target areas.

They consider certain
things to be inhumane.

You know, uh, one of
those things being

a neck shot, they
don't like that.

Uh, we typically, when we
look at a broadside shot

on an animal, we look
at a line going down the

back leg of the animal.

And then I would
always say up one third

into the chest cavity
to get that lung,

heart type location.

Sorry, to be clear the
back of a front leg.

The back of
the front leg.

Is that what I said?

Okay.

So the, the back
of the front leg

and the, that line.

Europeans tend to look
at the front of the front

leg and draw up into
there, which is that

hilar response or the,
you know, that, that

portion of the nerve
clusters and everything

that are in there.

And that's what they
tend to shoot for.

And particularly when
you spot an animal,

that's looking at you,
you get a really good

presentation of that
frontal area that's there

to make the shot up.

Just one of those things.

Interesting.

Okay.

We can talk more on
that, but, and it's

really hard in a, a
verbal interaction.

Like we're having to talk
about shot placement.

We need pictures and
drawings and diagrams

and everything else.

I'll see if I can do
that on the website.

Yeah, yeah, I guess,
but more importantly,

we're talking about the
standard north American

approach and like I
see by all means, never

forget those standard
calibres look hard

if you're concerned
about recoil and size

of the firearm with
the 6.5 Creedmoor but

let's not forget those
universal magnums.

When properly loaded
are just fine for fairly

close ranges, but when
it comes down to that

400 yard shot, the retain
energy, the expansion

of the bullet, man, you
know, that universal

300 Winchester Magnum.

If the recoil is not
an issue to you, that

is a great cartridge.

Great cartridge.

Well, let's talk about
the next question.

Okay.

So last question
we have here.

Oh.

And it's to do
with shot placement

and bear hunting.

Bears will have their
fur and it will trap

a lot of blood, make
it more difficult to

track, and they're
a dangerous animal.

So some people are
advocating for shooting

the bear in the shoulder
and having a round

that's heavy enough to
penetrate through that

shoulder into the vitals.

They said, sure we'll
lose some meat, but

then I don't have
to track this bear.

I don't have to worry
about having this thing,

maybe not be able to find
it or having an angry

bear when I do find it.

Thoughts on that?

No disrespect to black
bears, they taste good.

They're wonderful animals
that are out there.

I find them to be
a bit of a sissy.

They are actually
one of the easier

animals to go down.

I still go back to, I
would rather put shot

placement and energy
transference into it.

I shot a black bear
at less than 60 with

my, actually would
have been my 300

Winchester short magnum.

And that bullet went
in and I'm talking 65

yards, so here's your
through and through.

That bullet went in, uh,
made a perfect entry hole

of, you know, 30 calibre
and made an exit of

about oh 8 inch calibre.

It blew a big
three-quarter hole right

out the other side of
the bears, rib cage.

I mean, went through the
heart and everything else

that bullet just carried
everything out with it,

that bear, like they do,
and I see bears as they

will immediately turn
around and this black

bear was biting at that
exit wound, weird enough

and then turned and bit
at the entrance wound

and then it was dead.

Bears when they take
off, if they're wounded,

usually take off at a
very high rate of speed.

They leave a pretty good
bear trail that you can

follow, whether there's
blood in it or not.

Uh, one of the things
that I see it always,

you get to where you've
actually shot at the

bear you get down low
and there's, I always

say if it's tight
cover, there's a tunnel.

You can just see,
they just clear

out a tunnel in the
direction they went.

Does it make it
easier than to track

if they're bleeding?

I don't think so.

I think it's all
about shot placement.

I just, I got a
default back to this.

Right.

So it's.

I, I wouldn't, I would
in a, in an imminent bear

attack, I would shoot for
the shoulders absolutely.

I want to plant that
bear or, or break its

legs so that the wheels
are gone and it, and

it can't come on me.

I I'm all about that,
but if I'm going

to hunt the animal,
I want to, I want.

Want some Meat.

To drop it.

Hey?

I want the meat,
I want to drop it.

And again, that's
where the hunting part

of this comes into.

We always say, do I want
an adrenaline charged

animal for the table?

Never.

No.

Never.

Right.

I want to get that
animal while it's,

you know, relaxed.

You know, eating,
grazing, doing

whatever it is.

And you know, and even
if it's a bear, I don't

want, I don't want to
jack the animal up.

So the chance of getting
in their spot and being

a little bit patient, let
him change his position.

If it's a bear that
it's not going to

give you, you know,
you're able to take it.

You feel good
about the shot.

It's not the best
shot, maybe are

going to have to try.

But we should never think
that we want the quick

kill, not the slow kill.

Remember a bullet
can also kill through

blood poisoning.

That'd be a very slow.

Right.

And, and again, a lot
of, you know, a, a

poorly placed shot,
a gut shot, and that

animal can go a day
or two before it dies.

So, no you want enough
gun for what you're

shooting as well.

And like I say, if
you can satisfy that

the 6.5 is that gun.

It, that's probably, you
know, in 25 years when,

you know, two other guys
are sitting here, but

they'll only have little
tiny microphones that

are the size of a grain
of rice and they won't

even have headphones on.

It'll be implanted
in their head.

But there'll be talking
about, you know,

providing the, uh, no,
let's not say it, but you

know, providing hunting
is still something

that people can do.

You know, there'll be
something again for

them to talk about and
there'll be talking

about, yeah when I
started, I had the

6.5, you know, boy,
it was great, but now

I'm shooting whatever.

Whatever.

All right.

Well, does that
get most of the

information out that?

I don't know.

Probably way more
information that you

wanted to put out,
but we're always open

to question here at
Silvercore I hear.

And that is the beauty
about being a Silvercore

Club member is you
guys get preferential

treatment for any
questions coming through.

Right.

So we can blog those,
you know, we can put

them in writing and
we can answer them.

We getcha thinking here.

I really, like I say,
continually, how many

people have I taught
the Canadian Firearm

Safety course to who,
you know, say, I want

to get into hunting.

How many people have
I taught the CORE

program to, I want
to get into hunting.

And it's always
the same question.

It's always the same.

Do I get a 308?

Do I get a 30-06?

You know, you know,
and, and really it's

those standard calibres.

You can't go wrong.

Manageable recoil,
performance down range.

You're good.

And then when you
kind of get, you

know, the addiction.

Start looking at
the other stuff.

Paul, thank you very
much for sharing your

knowledge with us on
The Silvercore Podcast.

That was my pleasure.

And we'll, what's
coming next?

Ooo.

Why don't we get the
listeners to let us

know what they'dlike
to hear next?

Yeah.

Would you like to hear
something maybe about,

uh, getting yourself
ready for your first

self guided fly in
Northern adventure?

Ooh.

That could be something.

That sounds good.

We can talk about that.

And you got a lot
of pictures we could

throw up as well.

Yeah!

Dig those out.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

That'd be fun.

All right.

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