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Being STRONG is more than just how much weight you can lift.
The Strong New York Podcast is dedicated to inspiring you to become your strongest self- in the gym, in business, in relationships and in life.
Join Kenny as he sits down with his strong as fuck buddies and shoots the shit on what it takes to be strong willed, strong minded and physically strong. Season one features everyone from entrepreneurs and local business owners to doctors and industry leaders in the fitness and wellness space.
With over a decade of experience, Kenny Santucci has made himself known as one of New York City’s top trainers and a thought leader in the health and wellness industry. After transforming his life at 15 years old through fitness, Kenny made it his mission to transform the lives of those around him.
Kenny has trained some of Hollywood’s biggest stars, including Jon Bon Jovi, Liev Schreiber, and Frank Ocean, and has been tapped as a fitness expert sharing his training approach with Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Runner's World, SHAPE, Well+Good, among other publications.
Kenny is the creator of STRONG New York, NYC's only Health and Fitness Expo. Strong New York is an immersive day of workouts, wellness experiences, panel discussions, and inspiring conversations with the best in-class wellness professionals, industry leaders, and change makers who are sharing their expertise on today's hottest wellness trends and first-hand experiences on how to optimize your overall health and life.
You can find Kenny at The Strength Club, his private training and group strength training facility in the heart of Manhattan located on 28th and 5th Ave in New York City.
All right, we're back with another episode of the Strong New York podcast. I'm your host, Kenny Santucci, and as always, grab yourself a can of Celsius and live fit 'cause we are sponsored by Celsius and I drink about five of those a day. And if you don't like them, well that's on you, but I love 'em.
Because they keep me young and natural. Uh, today I have a very special guest on, you'll hear a lot about longevity and wellness and taking care of yourself and building muscle from a lot of physicians today, but there were very few back in the day talking about this. I remember picking up a Time magazine, well over 10 years ago.
It's gotta be 13, 14 years ago now, and I pick up this magazine and I look inside. And I go, who is this doctor talking about exercise being the key to living a better, healthier life? He's talking about muscle building. No one at this time was talking about this. At the time, CrossFit was really big.
Bodybuilding was still like kind of taboo, but there was one guy. Right here in the heart of New York City, Dr. Jordan Metzel. He is an athletic physician here at HSS, but he is also one of the first out the gate talking about the importance of exercise and how everyone should be doing it. Now, go back, look it up, because there was a TIME magazine that came out.
Remember walking into Whole Foods, seeing it. I was like, I gotta read this. This is the guy who's got the letters after his name that I don't have, that people are gonna start to listen to. Couple years later, I got lucky enough, we were at the same event. We started chatting and I had to pick his brain.
He's the author of many books, FI five books now. Fifth one coming out, five books out. He's got 35 marathons under his belt. He's got 15 Ironmans under his belt. Probably no cartilage left in his knees. But the guy is an absolute savage. He is living it. He also is the F first physician to lead a fitness community called Iron Strength right here in the city.
He gets thousands of people to show up. He's an absolute G. Without further ado, Dr. Jordan Metzel. Dude, nice to see you. How that intro, baby? Dude? I mean, I'm bringing you everywhere I go. I would love it. I don't have to say anything. I'll just sit here and smile. Yeah, listen, I tell everyone. You know when I first got into training and I was like, I just feel, when people ask me, they're like, well, what do you do?
I'm like, I just exercise. I just work out. I treat exercise and going to the gym like I treat, brushing my teeth and taking a shower, and I remember picking up that Time magazine and being like, who? Who wrote the, who is this guy? Who's this doctor? Because he's the only guy saying the same shit I am. Yeah.
And I just didn't have the, the letters after my name to prove it. But you were saying that you were doing it, you stepped out the inside the norm. Yeah. And you were doing something that a lot of other physicians are saying a lot of stuff that a lot of other physicians were. Where'd that come from? Where, that kind of idea.
Yeah. Well, well thank you for this great intro and pleasure to be here. Um, so, you know, I come from a medical family, got, both my parents are physicians. Mm-hmm. I have three brothers. Uh, three of the four of us are doctors. Everyone's like a doctor Metzel. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I knew I was gonna go into medicine from the time I was like, when I was five years old, I was going, making rounds in my dad with my plastic doctor's bag.
I knew that was gonna be my thing. Um, as I kind of went on and got into medical school and residency, um, I learned, you know, much more about taking care of disease and taking care of patients. And as I went through my residency, I'm like, you know, I had this one part of my life, which is very active. I was starting to do marathons and triathlons.
I played soccer in college, was very active in that world. Mm-hmm. And then I had the medical side where people were kind of broken or sick or injured and we would fix them when they came in to see us. So it was like the doctor world and the fitness world. And then I went out and did training in sports medicine and started here at, um, hospital for special surgery where I've been now for 25 years.
And. Yeah. And again, there still was like the medical life, which was people came in with kind of jacked up knees or backs or shoulders or whatever it was, and I would kind of diagnose their problem and figure out ways to fix their problem. Mm-hmm. And I had this active life where I was doing my own activities.
And so I had these two separate circles. And then over time what started happening is I started realizing if I kept my own muscles stronger. Stuff didn't hurt as much. So I started doing strengthening and learning about plyometrics and plyometric space strengthening and functional movement and all the stuff that you live in.
Mm-hmm. And I'm like, there's a whole world about keeping your body going. That as doctors we are not trained in, we don't know about, we know nothing about it. We don't train our medical students about it, we don't nothing about this thing. And I'm like, this is fascinating. And more importantly, selfishly, when I do this on myself.
I feel a ton better. Mm-hmm. So I realized I could run faster. I nothing hurt as much. And so I started experimenting with teaching these small little group classes. And so my circles of like doctor stuff, broken fitness, things are healthy, started coming a little bit closer together. Then as I realized, hey, listen, as a doctor I can start influencing people in a different way.
Not, you know, Instagram wasn't around then. Influencing wasn't a thing. But as an MD I could start influencing people's behavior saying, Hey listen, why don't you come show up to this? And people would actually come. And it was great. And I started these fitness classes very small, and that was 14 years ago.
And over the years, these circles are now right on top of each other. So I have my, my circle of. Taking care of people's broken body parts still, which I do every day, all day long. But if you come in to see me with an arthritic knee, number one, I'll help figure out a strategy to fix your knee. We'll get x-rays, maybe an MRI.
We may do some injections of lubricants or platelets or some combination of different things to make your knee feel better. Mm-hmm. But as soon as that's done or while it's being done, we're gonna figure out how we strengthen your muscles to basically offload your knees. Strong quads, strong hips, strong glutes, the stronger all the muscles are around that arthritic knee.
The better you're gonna feel, the more you're being able to do. So The key is basically these circles have increasingly sat right on top of each other, and now I'm very much thinking about how I can prescribe fitness for people in a much more meaningful way. So I have, you know, training groups. I run, I have trainers all around the world.
I work with great people like you, that I have my patients see, um, all kinds of stuff around kind of getting these worlds to come closer together mm-hmm. To get people out and moving around. Yeah. I, I feel like at that time there were a lot of other doctors who. Subscribe to the idea that we shouldn't be working out.
You have an injury or there's some sort of pain there. Stop moving. But you were actually saying the opposite. How much kind of backlash did you get from other physicians? Well, I think that in the field of sports medicine, we increasingly have recognized that kind. Straight rest often doesn't help you.
And that keeping your muscles stronger. If someone has a stress fracture in their shin, I'll get them in the pool running or strengthening. So I think increasingly we recognize that is is very, very helpful. The whole idea of doctors prescribing exercise and actually running fitness classes, that was.
There were not, I was definitely on an island with that at the beginning. Uh, we're seeing mo more acceptance. And I also think with, you know, now with, uh, you know, vir with apps, one of the, one of the upsides of the pandemic, there weren't many, one was people became much more comfortable with virtual fitness programming.
Mm-hmm. And so the whole idea of, you know, virtual programming, virtual classes, all that stuff became much more common. And I think we saw a huge growth in that space. And I think doctors became more comfortable with the idea. But when I was first starting, it wasn't, wasn't a thing. Right before the pandemic.
Do you remember I taught that class with you? That was the last, it was in the basement of that gym. It was the last class I taught. Me too. Yeah, before the pandemic. I forgot that. And I remember you calling me up that day and you're like. I think this thing's gonna be pretty bad. I forgot that that's, yeah.
You called me up and we were, we kept going. It was a Soho, it was like, should we cancel this? Yeah. I dunno. Yeah. And we, you called me like two or three times that week. It was like on a Thursday or Friday. Yeah. You're like, do you think we should do this? I'm like, I'm you're the doctor. I'm just going along with what you say, but it was the last thing and we had a room full of people.
Yeah. I think everybody still want to hang out, but you were like, yeah, this is gonna be pretty bad. Yeah. And I was like, you really think so? Here we are five years later and more even. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was, uh, that really changed our world in so many ways. Yeah. You know, you know, some good, a lot of bad, but, but yeah.
Interestingly, one of the things that came outta this that I think you and I very strongly are on the same page about is that there was a big study done, um, at Kaiser in California of people. Who basically, um, got COVID before the vaccine was available. Mm-hmm. So, BA in Kaiser, if you're a Kaiser patient, they, they basically do a number of things.
They, you have an annual checkup as part of your plan, and you basically have to go do that. Um, they incentivize you to do it, and as part of your checkup, they do all your vital signs and they also do a self-reported exercise vital scan. How much been moving in the year before? Mm-hmm. At thi at this point, it's still self-reported.
It's not like, you know, uploaded data from your watch. So it's, you know, it's helpful, but it's maybe not. Perfect. Yeah. Um, and they looked at how likely you were to get serious sequelae from COVID, very sick hospitalization or death based on your fitness score from the year before. And what they found was that the more higher your fitness score, higher your vitality index is what they call it.
Yeah. Was in the preceding two years, the less likely you were to have serious consequences from COVID. No shit. And so, you know, you and I are on the same page that again. Terrible disease, you know, didn't follow an exact pattern. And it's not to say if you're the most fit person in the world, I had a number of patients that got very, very sick and still have problems and they were very active.
So it's not a guarantee. But if you look at a big 50,000 patient study, for sure, there was a direct correlation between the more active people were, the better they did. It's never a bad time to be strong. Yeah. If your body is stronger, you'll be more resilient. Yep. You'll be able to bounce back from trauma.
Yep. Of any kind, mental, physical, emotional, and it's so impressive. Like that Time Magazine article, take us back, like what was, what was the, uh, what was the idea behind that? Because you were saying some things that. We're kind of controversial at that point. Yes. That now everyone steals your shit. Nah, they can have my shit.
It's fine. I got more shit. Um, but, uh, you know, back then that was actually after Athletes Book a Home Remedies, which is my first book about, uh, you know, how to recognize and take care of most of your sports injuries at home. So the idea of that first book was. You know, you have tennis elbow or an achy knee or a rotator cuff tendonitis or a rotator cuff tear.
Mm-hmm. What are the questions you should be asking your doctor? What are the exercises you should be doing on your, on your own? Do you need an MRI and do you need surgery? 'cause the problem is that, you know, one of the problems we've seen in medicine in general is that if you get an MRI of any of us over 40.
We all have a meniscus tear. If you wanted to see in a meniscus, just get an MR mri. Yeah. Everybody has a meniscus tear and you were one of the first people I heard say that, yeah, you want surgery, get a an M mri. Get an M mri. Absolutely. Everybody has a meniscus tear. Yeah, so the whole idea of getting people to start thinking about their health and being o, having ownership of their health, it was important then time.
Did a special edition on the exercise revolution and the whole idea of getting people out moving, and that's, I was lucky enough to write the intro for that, and that was incredible because they were kind of like buying into it a little bit at that time. Yeah. Before it was even a thing. Yeah. Now everybody buys into it, and you're seeing this a lot.
You're seeing a lot of these talking heads on social media who obviously I follow all of my love. Every Andrew Huberman, Gabrielle Lyons, you know, the, the list goes on and on. Mm-hmm. You know. What's your thoughts on the whole idea behind longevity? Yeah. It's not a, longevity is not a term I love. So when you look at longevity mm-hmm.
15, 13 ION is in Spain and he decides he's gonna set out an expedition to find the Fountain of youth. Fountain of Youth, right? Mm-hmm. He ends up down, like in the Caribbean someplace. Didn't, didn't find the fountain of you, but they do have a statue for him in, in, uh, St. Augustine, Florida. Um, you know, fast forward to 2025.
We have, you know, guys like Brian Johnson doing the Don't Die Summit, right? Mm-hmm. Like, dude, I'm sorry to tell you, we're all gonna die. Uh, newsflash. Uh, so the idea of getting people to live longer. Is a, is a natural human feeling that we've had since the ancient Egyptians, right? Mm-hmm. You'll come back reincarnated, you'll, you know, be buried in a tomb with all your servants.
You'll go to the afterlife. I mean, we've been thinking about this for a long time as a, as a, as a species. Mm-hmm. That being said, you know, the idea of getting people to live longer through exercise is not really there. I mean. We've definitely extended life expectancy. We've almost doubled it in the last 150 years.
So people didn't live much beyond 40, which is, yeah, I remember, I just read that until mid 18, you know, early 18 hundreds. So what made a difference? Vaccines? Yep. Antibiotics, clean facilities, clean water. Those things. Extended life expectancy by almost double to where we are now. Is sitting in a, you know, a hyperbaric oxygen chamber and doing NAD therapy and red light therapy and other kinds of stuff, is that gonna give you an extra little bit of whatever, maybe around the margins?
I don't know if we know that. I don't think pushing all those things makes a ton of sense to me. However, what I will tell you is that what we should be after and what I talk about is healthy longevity. So it's not living longer years, it's living healthier longer, and that. We can make a huge difference with, with all the things we're talking about.
Diet, sleep, exercise, muscles. Mm-hmm. Movement. All the things I think that make a big difference. So I think it was the, the beginning of this year, I went to that don't die summit. Oh, how was it? Interesting. Yeah. Here's my thing. This, my big takeaway from it was everybody who wants to call themselves a biohacker, they got the yellow glass.
I hate that term. Yeah. They got the yellow glasses on. They wanna sit in the sauna, they wanna coal plunge, they wanna do NAD, they wanna do all this shit. The biggest biohack, they're not doing, everyone who is at that thing doesn't work out. Yeah. No one works out. No one's exercising. Yeah. They're just, they're wearing fucking squishy shoes with the toes out and all the bullshit, and they're not doing the biggest biohack.
Yeah. So that was my big takeaway from that. Yeah. And then. Y he's fine. I mean like, I like the fact that he uses himself as a lab rat a little bit. Yeah, but do, and it's an extreme, right. If you're gonna sell something, I think you really need to be fully bought into what you're trying to sell there. Yeah.
But I don't wanna live like that. 'cause that's fucking miserable. It's the quality of your life. Right? Right. I enjoy going outside on a Saturday morning. I'm sure similar to you. I go for a run. Yeah. I go for a workout, whatever it is. But for me to like. Yeah. Drain blood from one of my nieces and nephews, shoot it into my neck, you know, sleep upside down.
None of that shit is really gonna, you know, it's just too much. It's, it's too much. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, so, but I, I've always bought into a lot of the stuff you've done, and I, I love the fact that you created this fitness community, like you're not just. A doctor, right? You buy into what you're doing and you get other people to buy into it.
The iron strength, I love that name. It's such a great name for your community. When did that all start? Take us through that. Yeah, so about, uh, you know, 14, 15 years ago, we were talking about, you know, 150 minutes per week of exercise, how good it was to get people out moving around. There was a lot of narrative around that, but then I thought, all right, we're just saying this stuff, but we're not really doing much about it.
Mm-hmm. Number one. And number two, I, you know, as I told you personally, I felt a lot better when I did strengthening a couple things. I realized, a, as a doctor, I had a different vantage point than people like you that looked like, dude, I wanna look like that guy, right? Mm-hmm. But for me, I can say, look, I don't look like that guy, but I can help you, help you try and look like that guy number was.
So as a doctor, I had a different le uh, leverage. Point number two was that things like plyometrics, which I'm a huge believer in, mm-hmm. Are a lot more fun when there's people around. Mm-hmm. It's just hard to push yourself. Yeah. By yourself, like in a room by yourself, somewhat. With a group. It's interesting at, at our, at HSS, we just built the, uh, one of the first, um, wellness centers for employees.
A family donated money. We have this beautiful wellness. It's only for people to work everything from custodial staff to hospital administrators, to doctors. Wow. And I teach a couple classes there a month now, and it's just great communal. Exercise. There's something about the community. So I knew there was something about community, and so I started really small.
We started, uh, in a, you know, one of my patients with the GM at Equinox, they said, come in on a Sunday afternoon, give you the space. And I started getting people to go down there and, and do strength classes. And I didn't, I remember I talked to you about how do I make a playlist? Mm-hmm. I remember I, I asked you, how do I make my music?
I asked you about that. Yeah. I didn't know how to do that. I didn't know how to do any of those. I really didn't know how to do anything. Um, and, uh, and over time have started to build out. We've had different, you know, partnerships and different organizations have partnered with us. My main thing is everything we do is free, unless we're having people donate money to raise money for a, for a charity.
Everything's free. We, we've done. At your gym? Different places. Different classes. Mm-hmm. It's so much fun to get our people exposed. We have, you know, I, at the beginning it was people like me, like runners and triathletes, and now we have people like of all ages, we have, you know, kids, grandparents, diversity or group.
It's awesome. Yeah. And it's so much fun to see. And we have people from all over the place that come in and we have a lot of health, you know, health, uh, people like myself, doctors, doctors in training. Mm-hmm. People join us from, you know, all around the world on social media. Incredible. It's a lot of fun to watch it grow and to see it grow.
It's very gratifying. Um. And now we, you know, we do these, like a few of these a thousand person plus workouts on the Intrepid, the aircraft guard sick across the park here. It's really nice. You were one of the first to start doing that. Yeah. So it's been a long time. You now everybody wants to do it, do an event on the Intrepid.
But I was like, the first one to do is you. But you know, there's so much talk around the effects of building muscle tissue and one of the things that I talk about at my gyms, my company's called Strong New York, my gym is called the Strength Club. I bought into Strength very early on. I, I felt that that was what.
The goal should be, dude, this doesn't grow on a tree. Come on, let's go. Yeah. But the, but my goal was always to get stronger. Yeah. And improve. Yeah. Obviously the, the aesthetics are great. Like I wanna look good, but at the same time it's like, I think for most people it should be that idea of strength. Yeah.
And community. And you did both very early on. Yeah. And you started to see that. What do you think that the component of community built into the exercise or built into. What you're trying to do really helps move the needle. Yeah. So I think community is everything for the stuff that I do. 'cause you know, again, it's in the same as for you do people show up.
And that's why I think, you know, remote fitness is great to a point. Mm-hmm. It's if you can't, it's better than nothing. But being with actual people makes the biggest difference. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when during COVID, when they shut everything down and they were like, stay in your house and go, this is the worst possible thing for people because.
I mean, I watched a, a Netflix special on it. I read a bunch of articles about it. Like the, the brain atrophy is the same way the body does, and if you're not using it, you're losing it. Yeah. And we need this communication. Yeah. We were doing outdoor classes in Central Park, like the whole pandemic. I was, people were showing up masks in the middle of Central.
We didn't know it. I mean, yeah. Code was a terrifying time. And now we can look backwards and, and look at some of the lessons we did, things we did right, things we did wrong. I really believe people had the very best intention. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, being in the medical community, in the medical system, I, I feel badly that there's been such a huge.
Backlash against things like the way the vaccine program is rolled out and people having all this antipathy about the COVID vaccine. Just to, before you jump in, just to say that I think that they could have done a much better job messaging it. They could have done a much better job explaining it, but I think that people were really trying to do the best thing for huge parts of our community.
And I think if you're, you know, a fit young guy like you or me that has muscles and a lot of reserve, you know, largely, you know, knock on. Would, we did okay. For the most part though, I had some patients that got very ill, but if you were somebody's grandmother or somebody that was, you know, had a chronic disease or somebody that had chemotherapy and you were more likely to get really ill from this problem, I think thinking about protecting that part of our society was really important.
And I think rather than saying. Everybody will get the vaccine. Mm-hmm. If they would explain, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it. These, these are why, this is the best information we have. At this point, we may not know all the answers. This is killing a lot of people. All you do is look in New York City and see, you know, the huge number of, uh, deaths that we had here.
Um, if we could have messaged that better and made people, you know, allies instead of advers, I think we've had so much fallout from that whole experience. It's been, it's been rough, I think. Have you noticed as a physician the. The lack of trust that the average person has for physic, for the medical field after that.
Yeah, I think that that definitely has, I mean, it's definitely changed a bit and I think that's part, that experience also part the rise of the quote unquote influencer that people are like, you know. The Gary Brecks who have, aren't doctors who are getting medical advice. Yeah. The people are just given all kinds of advice and they're happy to give advice and you know, they have a platform to give advice.
They have a way to distribute their advice. If there are people money they're making and they have people that are happy to watch them and they look good, they look a certain way. I, it's interesting, I was talking to somebody before about I wanna break, somebody wants to break three hours in a marathon.
Like, you know how fast that is, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and what I said is, you could train every single day. All day long for the rest of your life, there's no way hell, you're breaking three hours. It's genetics, genetics, genetics. And then maybe a little bit on top of the genetics is all the other stuff. Yeah.
Yeah. And I feel like so much of not only health, but definitely. What people look like, you know, you can make a big difference. It was interesting. Um, this is new book, super Ages, a great doctor named Eric Topel who came out with this book, super Ages, looking at about how people live beyond, you know, 80, 90, a hundred years old and referenced a study that he was involved with looking at people's basically who lived between 80 and a hundred.
And they had a group of people that had no disease versus the people that had two or more diseases between 80 and a hundred. And what they thought beforehand was they looked at their genome for sequencing and they got man, 1500 people and they looked to see. If the people who basically lived very long had something different in their genetic makeup, and the answer was no, that it was all lifestyle.
So the whole idea of like lifestyle makes a huge difference. So I'm a big believer in lifestyle medicine and muscles and all the things we can talk about, motivation we can talk about. But at the end of the day, like running a three hour marathon is, is hugely genetic. Right. You gotta be a freak out. You gotta be a freak.
Yeah. Like that's not, I mean, you gotta be built for speed. Yeah. You know? Um, was there a lot of not to keep bringing COVID back up? 'cause I hate talking about this. No, but it's good to think about the lessons from it, I think. Yeah. Was there, was there a lot of dialogue? I mean, you, you're, you know, a pretty big deal here in New York mm-hmm.
In the medical field. Was there a lot of dialogue between the medical field and politics and politicians? Because I feel like the medical field. From the doctors that I work with, trainers, everybody that I, you know, um, in the health and wellness space, the doctors I've had on the podcast mm-hmm. They're all under the same kind of umbrella.
They were all like, listen, we just had the best. And I believe that like that the medical field had the best, um, intentions involved. I think it was when politics started to kind of reach over and start to. Dabble in where they shouldn't have been dabbling. It was a lot of problems. I mean, I've, I think first of all, this whole thing we're talking about of people having, you know.
People around with such social media to give their views, like, I believe this. And then, oh yeah, he's right. He believes that, and she believes that. And I think people could, you know, really, they could amplify their views if they had a big following and they were famous. Mm-hmm. Whether or not they had any knowledge about it, saying that that is a problem when it comes to quote unquote disinformation, that people are like, all right, if you, if you take ivermectin, whatever you're gonna, and then all of a sudden that became a huge thing.
You know, or eat a cantaloupe or whatever kind of crazy stuff, right? So people would just kind of say whatever the hell they wanted to say. Um, so that was a problem. Um, but I also think that they didn't do a good job. You know, you had, you know, uh, Tony Fauci or Dr. Fauci who was like 80 years or plus he, again, I think he had very good intentions about what he was doing.
He had made a huge difference in the age AIDS epidemic. Um. I think he was coming from the right place. He's an infectious disease doctor. He's looking at basically not only people like you and me, but you know, the 75-year-old lady who's overweight on chemotherapy. Yeah. That if she gets COVID, it's gonna kill her for sure.
Yeah. Um, the problem was that they did a terrible job messaging. They had Tony Fauci out there messaging all this stuff. Mm-hmm. And the truth of the matter is, if you have somebody who's like an Instagram influencer messaging something and Tony Fauci messaging something. Most people are gonna say, oh, I'll, I'll have what she's having or whatever.
So, so I think that there was a real problem with how we got the information out and how people interpreted that. I think it was a communication problem that led to a lot of mistrust among other things. Um, I'll never forget that video de blassio eating fucking shake. And be like, oh, if you go get your vaccine, you'll get a cheeseburger and french fries.
And I'm like, Jesus is this, this guy is like, like he's running for class president in fourth grade. Yeah. Here he is trying to sell you on a cheeseburger and french fries. The fucking shot. Like, this is what, there's nobody else in the room who thought that was stupid. Yeah, no, no. It was, uh, you know, I think I, I think first of all, not a huge fan, but second of all, I think that, uh, people were just trying to figure how they could.
Influence behavior, inspire people. I get it. Just how change people's behavior. But I, I think it, in my opinion, we would've done better off. We've said, listen, this is what we know. This is what we don't know. Mm-hmm. This is what we think is the best information for where we are right now in this whole process.
Yeah. There's a lot of people dying. I mean, again, if you would've been up where I was, you know, around the medical, you've probably seen some. Yeah. I mean, there was, there was just, you know. Amazing number of people dying. I, I had several doctors and nurses who were seeing me in the park all the time, and they would just come to hang out.
They didn't even wanna really work out that much. Yeah. They just wanted to come and hang out. They were like, this is just such a good stressor for me. Yeah. They were seeing some really bad shit. They were always in weird moods. They, you know, we were. We were, this is when we started to make it kind of a social club.
We'd work out and then we'd go, yeah. Have dinner, drink, or something. Yeah. Because at that time, one, there wasn't a lot of people in the city. Two, we just wanted to hang out. But yeah, most of my, most of the clientele that I had during that time, during that window were like nurses and doctors. Yeah. We were the only people.
So we, and so how we went from like people standing outside in the balcony, banging their pots and pans saying Thank you to don't trust these guys. They didn't know what they're doing in like a one year period of time. Yeah. It's kind of weird. Yeah. So I just think that, you know, this whole kind of. I hope we can start to think about some of the lessons we've learned.
I think one of the lessons definitely though is that, um, you know, the more fit and strong you keep yourself, the better your help will be. And that's definitely true. Yeah. And you're definitely leading the charge by that. And what I, what I admire about you is you're not just, you don't just talk the talk.
You walk the walk. You've done 35 marathons, 15 Ironmans. It's not easy. And what I like that you talk about as well is that. There's a strength component to it. You're not just, I went to that talk that you did. I think it was before COVID. Yeah. The wellness night. Yeah. That was so fucking good. Thanks.
Honestly, we're gonna do it again this year, so good. Alright. Please lemme know. Yeah, I will. Because I'd happily sponsor Yeah. And get involved in anyway, because you had all the information. I still have pictures on my, uh, phone that I was taking while you were going through the slides. Oh, thanks brother.
Good. But the slides were so informative. Good. And they were so good. And they just talked about. VO two max. Yeah. And what you, but long before all these other people were talking about it on social media Yeah. And you were talking about the importance of strength training and how you break down your programming.
Uh, and it was very smart. Thank you. And because they don't, they don't teach that to doctors. Like this is, this is, you are, you're kind of like a pro science. Eh. Right. Maybe because you tested it yourself. Yeah. You're doing, you were doing all this stuff over here. You were never taught it. Yeah. But you're like, Hey, I'm gonna try this.
I'm like, the Brian Johnson, I'm getting your ass kicked. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. But you work through it and one of the things that I tell a lot of people is, you know, you've had knee issues. Oh dude. And you still continue to run. Yeah. The amount of clients that I've had who come to me who are like, I have knee issues, I can never run again.
Yeah. Not true. Yeah. So I, you know, I have arthritis in both my knees and I, and most of the people that come to see me have arthritis in their knees, by the way. And you know, for all those people, myself included, I just did the marathon last weekend. You know, the stronger you keep these functional muscles, you know, the more you keep your muscle strength, the more you offload your joints, the better you do.
Yeah. And we, we have great evidence on that. You know, so one of the things that I deal with a lot, and I'm a bro science guy, I've always been like a west side barbell guy. Mm-hmm. And a lot of these guys have dealt with tennis elbow and golfer's elbow. Mm-hmm. And you know, arthritis. Are a lot of the, and even my, and I remember my grandmother having, uh, osteoporosis.
Mm-hmm. And I'm like, God, if she could just get her shoulders back if she just worked out a little bit. Yeah. I think by the age of 40 or even 50, she just probably never put her arms up over her head. Yeah. She never worked out. Her whole life was just like cooking and cleaning around the house and. But you're seeing now you're seeing that drop in the numbers because people are exercising.
Yeah. The people who are exercising aren't getting this stuff as much. Yeah. Are a lot of these diagnoses like tennis, Albert golfer's elbow, is this just. Poor movement pattern, is it actually something going wrong in the joint? Could you kind of Sure, sure. So, you know, my whole first book, a Home Remedies book was all about how to fix all your aches and pains at home.
Mm-hmm. And in that I try and explain every diagnosis that I commonly see. Tennis, elbow, golf, elbow, arthritis, shoulder impingement, all kinds of problems. Mm-hmm. Why they happen. And so it's some combination of either you're doing something wrong. More often than not, like for example, if you're playing tennis or lifting or doing whatever and your elbow starts to hurt, the muscles in your forearm aren't strong enough, so it's not do less.
It's do different. Mm-hmm. You have to work on strengthening the muscles that are upstream in the tendon to offload that tendon so it doesn't get hurt. Tendonitis tends to be a problem of loading too much force where the tendon inserts into the bone. The muscles upstream aren't strong enough, so it's not do, do less.
It's do different. Mm-hmm. And so more likely than not, you're not strong enough in your kinetic chain. Your core is not strong enough. Your scapula muscles aren't strong enough. You're not bouncing at your strength well enough. So you're overloading that part. Yeah. Well there's a, you know, for a lot of my clients, if they are dealing with that, everybody wants to play a racket sport now.
Everybody wants to play tennis. Pickleball or padel or whatever the hell you wanna call it. And I don't have pronou that either. Pade. Yeah. Yeah. I, I thought it was paddle and somebody corrected me. Yeah. Piel. But, uh, a lot of what I've noticed when I have people do a lot of is isolated tricep extensions.
Mm-hmm. You know, whether it's across the face or mm-hmm. Behind the head. It tends to clear up a lot of that, those elbow issues that they're having. Definitely. So, yeah. Again, stronger upstream muscles. Yeah. Offload. Now sometimes the tendon itself is injured. Yeah. It's infl. Yeah. So if it's just a little bit irritated tendonitis mm-hmm.
Then the strengthening will work. Yeah. If it's more than that, if it's, you know, injured, partially torn tendinosis, a partial degenerative tear, then there's things we do to fix that. And increasingly we're doing something called PRP where we take blood from your other arm. Yeah. Take it out, spin it in a c, take your own platelets and inject it into the tendon.
It glues it back together. It's super badass and works great. Well, and, and this is what I've talked about a lot in my facility and, you know, anytime I have conversations, if we believe that PRP works mm-hmm. It we're just, we're. Shooting those platelets right into where, yeah, it's injured, but like movement in general is just getting more blood flow and oxygen to that area.
It is. The only problem is like something like a tendon. Yeah. Doesn't have much of a blood flow. That's why we do it in the late areas like that. Okay. Yeah. So an area that doesn't have a blood supply, we need to, and so the problem is if you wanna, if you have like tricep tendonitis in your tricep muscle's pretty strong and it's still sore, then we have to think about do I need to fix the tendon itself to allow you to keep strengthening it?
That's where we start to think about that. As somebody who's ran 35 marathons. I mean, I've done New York probably 10 times. You How many times did you do New York? My god, I think it's 20 or so. I just, yeah. So I always tell people I was coming across the bridges. I'm like, what the hell? Why am I doing this?
Yes. So that's what I was gonna ask you. I tell everyone there, they're like, what have you learned over the course of doing all these marathons? And I go, new York's probably one of the hardest. You don't even realize how many like mountainous bridges there are there. It's hard. And. Coming across the 59th Street Bridge.
I don't care how good of a runner you are, ugh. It is absolutely fucking brutal torture. What do you tell yourself going over the bridge before you get to the top? Dude going up is, is been okay. It's the coming down in the backside. I'm like, fuck. You know? I'm like, dude, I look up and I'm like, fuck yeah, that.
Yeah, a lot of that. So I'm going up and so there's a lot of my, again, I'm a big believer, um. You know, my, the next book I have coming up is called Push and it's all about the science of motivation and what keeps people motivated and how that kind of affects their longevity, healthy longevity. And I'm a big believer in pushing yourself.
And it's all about, it's same combination of a lot of patient stories and about myself. I kick myself in my own ass all the time. I do that 'cause I think it makes me a better person, a better doctor, a better everything. Mm-hmm. I think you gotta push yourself. And so you come around that corner and you look up at the, it's a mile.
Climb up that 59th street bridge, a mile 15, 16. Mm-hmm. You are like, dude, come on. But anyway, you, you just keep your head down one foot in front of the other. You try and keep going and then you, what's your favorite? The fricking end. But you come down, you come down the backside and you're like, oh, this sucks.
And you, but you come around and you come up, you see all your friends on First Avenue. You go up into the Bronx and it's just, it's honestly, but there's not, when you kind of, you know, things that if you run like two weeks before and it feels like a small little nothing. Mm-hmm. And then you go up Fifth Avenue, like between a hundred and 10th and 92nd.
Oh, it's like straight uphill. Yeah. When you had mile T of the marathon, this sucks. Yeah. But you get up there. And, uh, you know, there's, there's really nothing. When you get around that corner in the Central Park and you feel like, all right, I'm gonna make this thing, and, and you know, it's an amazing triumphant, the nice thing about it is you put your name on your shirt and everybody around the whole, you know, you got a million fans screaming your name, trying to get your ass across that finish line.
It's a total team experience, and you realize. That, you know, pushing yourself is important, but people helping push you. Do you feel like, you know, like a ping pong ball in a river? It's like people are pushing you down the way. It's so incredibly meaningful to get across that damn line. I think nowadays with everyone in every aspect of life so divided, it's the one day that brings New York together.
Oh, that we could all agree on. Doesn't matter what your politics are, what your religion is. If you are on that course, everybody's cheering. You couldn't agree more. I, we need that vibe. That's what we need all time. Yeah. More often. Couldn't agree more. Agree. And, and, and I believe, and I've said this forever, I believe that fitness could change the world, personal fitness and group fitness.
Mm-hmm. In the fact that when you're taking care of yourself and you're pushing yourself to do uncomfortable things. You become the best version of yourself. Totally. Now you can share that with other people. Absolutely. Now, because you are more efficient and you have more value, you could do that for other people.
And when other people start to take care of themselves, now you have less animosity, you have less anger towards people. There's all these people. I mean, listen, do I think everybody should have a billion dollars? Like to all these people? No. But at the same time, there are a lot of people who earn that money.
I'm nowhere near that. It's not like I'm advocating for billionaires. What I'm saying is we have been, we came here, everyone comes here in hopes to live the American dream. If I work my ass off, I could be successful. Mm-hmm. Why are we now denouncing that? And I think the same thing holds true with fitness.
Why? If people take care of themselves, why are we looking at this as a bad thing? Yeah. I like the idea of the motivation. Everyone should. There should be a little kick in the ass every day, no matter what you're doing and give it to yourself. Do something where like, Hey, I had a really healthy breakfast.
I feel great. I'm gonna tackle the day. Yeah. You know, I talk about those little wins all the time. It's important. I mean, I think it's really important, and I agree with you that, uh, in, in all my group classes that I do. I'd say at least half of 'em. I try and make partner based and when I have people come in, I just assign 'em somebody they don't even know.
Mm-hmm. Like partner, like you can't, the one rule is you can't go with the person you came with. Yeah. I give 'em somebody totally new. Yeah. And it's by the end of the thing, they're like cheering for each other. Yeah. I do like burpees or one person's doing burpee. Other person's scream to that person their name.
I mean, it's like getting people involved and helping each other. It's all about working together and I, I think that sports are a great analogy for life that way. So. Obviously we know what the, the book comes out February 3rd. Yeah. The newest one. Push. Yep. Yeah. So you've noticed this, that the motivational aspect of what you're doing is a huge driver for people to want to do more.
Mm-hmm. Uh, kind of break down the book for a little us a little bit. Sure. So, um, you know, I think one of the things that I've noticed is that over time. We talk to people about, you know, exercise every day, eat healthy, do all these things, and yet some people do it and most people don't do it. Right. So the people probably listening to this podcast are maybe 2% of the population.
Everyone else is not doing it. Yeah, yeah. Um, most Americans don't do that. Most people don't do it. So how do we start thinking about reaching out to this other people? What are the things we can learn? And so what I started doing was, first of all, inter I interviewed probably 15 patients that have been on a lifelong journey of.
Activity and health. And I started the, I start the book with a story of a woman who, uh, not a real name, but we call her Alice in the book. And Alice, uh, basically lost her husband and then got a breast cancer diagnosis in her late sixties, both. And she was a professor, very accomplished. And, uh, within about a two year period of time, her husband died and she got a breast cancer diagnosis.
And most people throw in that situation, say, screw it, I'm done. Mm-hmm. What she did is she went out and she started walking, and then she went and walking again, and then she went through chemo and she started walking again, and then she started jogging. And then by the time of the book, she's done 14 marathons.
Holy, starting at age 70. That's incredible. And she teaches a kettlebell class to 80 year olds. That's incredible. And people like that. I find so meaningful. So what was it about her? What can we learn from someone like her? How do we figure out what moti, and you and I we're built this way, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, like if we don't go to the gym for a day, we're like, what's the matter?
Yes. Um, but someone like that, how do we think about her? I was lucky enough to take care of her for her arthritic knees, but in talking to her. What does her story teach us? How can we, how can we take that? How can we bottle it? How can we give it to other people to learn from it? Put that on the shelf in it?
Put it on the shelf. And I think a lot of it is just kind of learning. There's people like that. It's much like assigning somebody to class, you don't know. Mm-hmm. It's like, I know my story. I don't know your story. Yeah. I don't know. Somebody else's story. So learning about that, learning to understand motivation, learning to kind of teach people how to.
Think about their motivation, how to assess them. We have a motivational self-assessment tool to give yourself a score of where you are in your own motivational score. That'd be cool. So to start thinking about how you can kind of use it and then assess where you are compared to where you were and then at the end.
And so the whole book is about kind of motivation and motivational stories. Um, and then at the end I have a whole series of exercises to build muscle. 'cause a big piece of healthy longevity. Um, that we both agree on for sure is that, you know, muscle mass and muscle maintenance, skeletal muscle mass, not only for functionality, but also for metabolic health is hugely important.
If you're not building muscle every day, you're losing it. Especially over 45 years old, you're losing muscle mass quickly. Um, and the further you are from 20 years old, the faster you're losing it. You lose about 10% of your entire muscle mass per decade at the age of 60 on, so it happens quickly. So you gotta keep building muscle, you know, strength training a few times a week has to be part of what you do.
And so I want to give people some exercises to, to do that, you know, wherever they are. 'cause that's really important also. Yeah. Peter Attia was just on 60 Minutes. Did you watch that? I didn't see it. I saw some of the clips. You saw some of the clips and that's basically he was saying at 75, we just fall off the deep end.
Yeah. You know, do you agree with a hundred percent? That's, you know, and uh, you know, I think people like Peter Attia give a great message and start thinking about this. And, you know, I think the key thing for me is that, um, you know, I see these people every single day in my office. He's done an amazing job.
He has a clinic where he is seeing in a, a small number of kind of higher end people that are paying a lot of money to be his patient. Mm-hmm. Um, I think I'm lucky enough that I'm actually taking care of patients. You know, you're seeing day to day people. Day-to-day people. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think to me, the part of the story that's different on my end is that, uh, I'm actually in the trenches with the people every single day For sure.
Um, and so how do you get those people to start thinking about motivation? How do you get. You know, people that start thinking about what they can do on a day-to-day basis that, you know, I think those are the things. And interestingly, I think things like podcasts have made a big difference in getting the information out for people, getting people inspired about stories like that, thinking about it.
Well it gives us an opportunity to talk to professionals like you who are boots on the ground. Anyone. Yeah. You're seeing it every day. Yeah. Um, I actually just had a conversation with my staff today, so we went to, we had a meeting at my gym in New Jersey. Mm-hmm. And then we went over. And supported what most people would think would be a competitor of ours.
My friend's Jim. Mm-hmm. Right down the street from us. I brought my whole staff. I brought some family and some friends. Mm-hmm. We all hung out. We all supported the gym because in my opinion, he sells a different product. He has a bodybuilding gym. I have more of a group kind of mm-hmm. Uh, private chain training, gym.
And I think what we've screwed up. Big time in the fitness industry was one, we tried to sell everyone on aesthetics and tried to make it all about like, well, you need to look better. Mm-hmm. And the second thing is that this scarcity mindset that we need to steal other people's clients and blah, blah.
And I've never operated like that. I always wanted to, I always believed that we all need to work together to get that, what is it, 80% of people don't have a gym membership. Don't exercise, don't work out. So my big question to everybody in the fitness industry is exactly what you said, and I'm excited about reading the book.
Mm-hmm. I can't wait till it comes out because the, the unanswered question is you had this woman who had this traumatic experience, which pushed her into this world. Mm-hmm. And there are so many people out there, you know. You just get on a plane going to Florida or like the Midwest somewhere, and you see so many people who don't even, we do it.
We're almost addicted to it. It's hundred percent it a shot of heroin for us. No, a hundred percent. I admit it. We need to work out. Yeah. How do we get this person who doesn't even consider it? Yeah. Doesn't think about it. You know? And for me, my job relies on the fact that, how do I convince people that going to the gym.
Will improve every other aspect of their life. Yeah, you wanna look better, you wanna meet more people, you wanna get a better job. You wanna be a better parent. Go to the fucking gym a hundred percent. Take care of yourself. A hundred percent. A hundred percent, exactly. Right On all counts. And it starts young.
It starts with kids in school, grades, and all the, you know, all the, you know, the whole idea of the quote unquote dumb jock. Not true at all. Kids that are athletic and involved in sports have better grades, better self-esteem, less risky behaviors. It starts as kids goes to adolescence, goes to young adults, goes to older adults, goes to parents, goes to grandparents, and so it's getting a pattern of behavior across your entire lifespan that makes you as healthy as you possibly can be.
You know, you're on the front lines of this thing. You're seeing a lot of people come to you. They're like, well Doc, maybe I shouldn't work out. Maybe I should take it easy. Like, what do you, you're kinda living this life. What do you, what are you telling these people? So I basically have the, the, uh, so for push I have, uh, the front.
Cover, uh, you, uh, the cover's pretty cool. Uh, I'll send you a pickup cover. It's, it's the blurry guy. Yeah, the blurry guy going. And then, um, and then I have a quote on the inside. Two quotes. One from Gandhi and one from me. And Gandhi's is visualize the change. You want to be Mahatma Gandhi? Underneath is mine.
Commit to getting off your ass. That's what it's right. Yeah. You can say it. You can talk about it, but you gotta commit. Getting off your ass. Mm-hmm. Every single day. It's not, listen, it's like coming up that damn bridge in mile 16 of the marathon. Right. It's not like you turn the 59th Street bridge and like, oh my God, I'm so excited to go uphill for a mile.
No, it sucks. Yeah, it totally sucks. But because it sucks because it's hard. Yeah. Is exactly why you gotta do it. Yeah. I mean, I think, I always say there's so much beauty beyond pain. Yeah, right. If something's painful, if something's uncomfortable, as soon as you get beyond that mountain, that's where all the good stuff is.
A hundred percent. And you just have to convince yourself. I say the hardest part about going to the gym is just getting there. Yes, absolutely. Because once you're there, it's, you can go and somebody's gonna facilitate a workout for you. Somebody's done all the thinking for you. Someone is gonna teach you exactly what you should and shouldn't do.
Um, what, what's some misconceptions about the kind of the. The crossover between the medical field and training that you've seen. So I think that there's a lot, there's room to grow, like even more, I'd say that I, I, I send, if somebody has a problem where I need to send 'em to a physical therapist for a particular injury mm-hmm.
That's one thing. But if I'm sending somebody just for a general fitness conditioning or maintenance. Send a, you know, I send probably more patients these days to trainers. Yeah. And I have trainers that see them virtually. I have trainers that go to people's apartments. I have facilities I send people to.
Just depends on, you know, who they are, their geography, what they want to do, where they're living. People are living in different places, especially in our area of the world. Um, so, you know, I think it's important for our communities to meet each other. I wish more trainers would come meet me. Yeah. I feel like you guys have your world.
And we have our world and there's not enough opportunity. I think we should even start, honestly, I would do something tomorrow. Let's, let's start, yeah. A meetup. Well, here's the, let's start a meetup at your gym. Here's the thing. Now you, you came to the event this year. I had just speak at it. It's fricking awesome.
And I always say, people are like, who's at the event? I go, well, if you're a fitness professional in New York City and you're not there, you're a fucking moron. Yeah, you're, it's a huge miss. There's an opportunity to. Create community. Yeah. There's an opportunity to meet new clients. Yeah. There's an opportunity to potentially get brand deals.
Yeah. Because I have 80 plus brands there. There's no other event that has that many people Yeah. In New York. So if they're not there, I, I just write them off. I'm like, you're a moron. This is an oppor. I'm putting in all the work, I'm doing all the hard shit. So that you could come and thrive here. Yeah. You know?
And the opportunity to listen to people like yourself. Yeah. Like there's, I have everyone there and I think there's a lot of people. In the fitness industry, um, who do what I do, who are fucking egomaniacs, and they're too good to show up to something like that. Mm-hmm. I think you have so much, uh. To offer so many trainers, whether it's introducing them to clients, learning from what you see on a daily basis.
Mm-hmm. You are the guy, you, they should be coming to your events, they should be looking to work with you. Mm-hmm. I would be, I'd happily kind of brainstorm. Let's think about that. I mean, we should think about doing something collab. 'cause I just feel like there's not enough overlap. There should be more.
Yeah. There should be a ton more. And even with the doctors, so I went up to, um, what was it? Uh. What the hell's the one up on 90 in the nineties? Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai. Yeah. I went to Mount Sinai and they wanted me to help out with this thing they were doing, and I was like, yeah, we should do, like, they were doing like a pushup challenge and stuff.
I was like, yeah, let's do pushups. Let's do pull-ups. Yeah. And I love to see that. And they, it was right in the main lobby of Mount Mounts. Love it. And we were doing this and I go this, there were so many people that were excited to do it. Yeah. And then there's a lot of people who look at a pull up bar. Or see a bunch of people doing pushups and they're like, fuck no.
I'm like, wait, wait, wait. What's so scary about this? 'cause you should be able to pick yourself up off the floor. Yeah. And if you ever needed to pull yourself up onto something. Yeah. Like, I think those are two basic movements that everybody should be doing. Yep. Pretty often. Yep. Agreed. Um, but yeah, I would love to kind of just think about that, explore that idea because I mean, you're, you're touching so a different demographic of people than the rest of us teach.
Yeah. I'm putting up shirt. I'm not that guy, but like the trainer who puts up shirtless videos of himself and he's building muscle tissue. It's like, great, you are, do you know why you're doing that? Do you know what? Yeah. Why? Like I've seen some shirtless videos. You do this. Every once in a while. Come on, I'll 'em up on, yeah, every once in a while, you know, you gotta show it off.
You look awesome, brother. Well, listen, doc, thank you so much for coming in. Awesome. I loved it. Um, where could everybody find you? What is, uh, you know, yeah, February 3rd. I'm very excited about the book. I think the book's awesome. I Oh, thank you. Like I said, I mean, I read that article years ago. Blew my mind and I fell in love with you then.
Then I met you. I actually have the other copy that you've given me of the other books when we met at the event in Arizona. And I've just been following your career and you have been nothing but Aw, thank you. No, it's, it's great. So thank you. No. Yeah. So where could everybody find all your information?
You could find me on my socials at Dr. Jordan Metzel, J-O-R-D-N, Metzel. Uh, and on there I have kinda my Instagram all different, uh, information and then, uh, all information about my books that are on Amazon. Uh, my previous four books as well as my newest book, uh, push, can be pre-ordered. If you want to get it, it comes out February 3rd.
You can get it now. And my mom pre-ordered it so you can pre-order it too. And if you're in New York and uh, right on your Instagram, you always have information on the Iron Strength. It's a free workout. It's a no-brainer. I've coached a couple of 'em. I know you've had some of the New York's top trainers coach some stuff and they're, you always have at cool locations.
That's what we try and make it. Yeah. One of the things we found was that, uh. You know, if we found did cool stuff. In cool places, varied stuff. It was the best with cool people. Yeah, with cool people. Doc, you've, you have put the wheels in motion that the medical industry and the fitness industry could come together.
You're the first guy I found that did it, and I appreciate your work. You've been killing it. Keep doing what you're doing. Love having you guys. Thank you so much for watching the Strong New York podcast. Hopefully you're watching on YouTube, uh, listening on Spotify, share with a Friend, subscribe. Thank you guys all so much and I'll see you guys on another episode.