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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
Okay, I've got Pebbles Turbeville here.
She is the CEO of Horses and
Humans Research Foundation.
If you don't know about them, you should
know about them because I've known
about them for about 15 years, and I've
watched 'em grow from something quite
small to something quite a lot bigger.
And what they do is they.
Fund studies into what we all in the
equine assisted world do, which means that
those of us who then need to get funding
for our own programs can look to the
studies that horses and humans Research
Foundation have funded and basically use
that data to show that we don't suck.
And as we know, those of us
who've been in it for a while
know that this has been a problem.
I think for people that are coming in
now where equine assisted work is much
more accepted, man, if you've been around
15, 20 years ago, like people just, ah,
you guys just playing with ponies, you
know, and we had to prove that what we
were doing well, okay, it was playing
with ponies, but that playing with
ponies was really, really good for the
human and like medically provably good.
So horses and humans research foundation
really got into the out ahead of this
and got into the forefront of this early.
And have been, I'd say, blazing the trail.
And not just that, but sort of, you
know, how a rising tide lifts all boats.
They've been legitimizing us, I would
say, for the last 15 or 20 years.
So, I want to shut up now and have
pebbles talk about what she does, but
this is my big up because people like
Pebbles are out there working on our
behalf and you know, we need to support
them and know what they're doing.
And also, if you've got really interesting
studies that you could turn them onto,
pebbles are gonna be all about it.
So, all right.
Without further ado Pebbles, welcome.
Thank you.
Who are you?
What do you do and why do you do it?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well, thanks.
That was a great introduction.
I could talk about myself, but I
really rather rather talk about HHRF
Forces and Humans Research Foundation.
And I just need to jump in for a second
and kind of give the honor to Molly
Sweeney, our founder, because 20 years
ago she was volunteering at a program
in Texas when you were there nearby?
Yeah, in Houston.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sire.
And she saw, you know.
Those miracles that we see are
just small steps for and people.
And so she was like,
how is this happening?
And so her question, how really
started this whole organization, it's
kind of interesting how with the h
and the horses and humans, but yeah,
in the sense that she wanted to know
how the horses were actually helping.
So she gathered some people
in the industry together.
Decided, you know, we need to do something
and fun and get research started.
And so that happened 20 years ago.
Here we are now.
And she, she was really ahead
of her time in some sense.
Why was
Rupert Isaacson: Molly doing this?
Was she an academic?
Like why did she have this
idea to, to crush the moment?
No,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
it was all about being a volunteer.
I mean, she loves horses.
She grew up, her whole family was
involved with horses, add horses.
Her her children have horses
or grandchildren ride.
They, they all have this affection
and, and bond with horses.
But when she actually saw those kids.
Speak for the first time
or be able to walk better.
All of those benefits that we see
from equine assisted services.
She, she was like, okay,
so how does this work?
How, how is this happening?
And that's why she wanted to
start getting research behind it.
So like you said, it wasn't just a pony
rod, it really was therapeutic as well
as therapy with those therapists, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But I suspect I'm, I'm, I'm the
journalist in me wants to dig now.
Okay.
There were, there are lots of people
who 20 years ago were volunteering
at therapeutic riding places and who
had family, you know, involvement
with horses and were curious, but not
everybody went the extra mile like Molly
did to like create an organization and
look for funding and so on and so on.
Why?
Why did she, why was she
the person that did that?
What
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I think she's just a, she's just one of
those people in the sense that she has a
brilliant mind and she is an innovator.
She has that intuition piece.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Brilliant mind.
She loves physics.
I can't even fathom physics.
I mean, I love it in
Rupert Isaacson: theory.
I admire it.
But yes, I hear
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
yeah, so yeah, I mean, she's just kind
of ahead of her time and she wants to
know, she, she's got those questions.
Rupert Isaacson: So she reached out and
found people to support this endeavor.
Was that all initially in Texas?
And who did she talk to
and, and why do you think.
She, why was it that she could persuade
them to go, yeah, look, we'll give
you some money to figure this out.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I think she contacted a variety of people.
Casey Henry was the
first executive director.
She was the executive director of
Fieldstone Farm before she was of HHRF.
So she had grown a small program
into, this is probably one of the top
three in the United States right now.
And she got Pat Mullens,
who was in Markel Insurance.
She got some physical therapist
as well as some psychologists.
She got a variety of people who
were immersed into EAS at that time
that were also influential in, in
that area, but also realize that.
They were movers and shakers.
They were gonna, if they believed in
what Molly was gonna propose or, and
they, they, if they saw that dream, they
were gonna make it happen and they did.
And so having that variety of people also
set the organization up the right way.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so what was, go ahead.
Sorry.
I don't want to, I was
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
about to say, so like, for example, we
give out research funds for research
about how horses are helping humans.
And it was, we have a scientific advisory
council, so our kind of foundation was
also patterned after Michael j Fox's.
Parkinson's Foundation.
'cause they looked around and said, who's
doing this type of research and what
are some models that we could look at?
So that was one of the examples.
And so when we make a call for our grant,
we have advisors who are specialists
in certain areas, but they all do
research and they evaluate those grant
applications and they're evaluated
and then they move up the tiers.
Now we've changed the process, or
I, I should say, tweaked it a bit.
In the past couple of years, it used to
come that paper applications came to the
board and they looked at 'em and made
a, had a discussion and made a decision.
But now we actually have the applicants.
This past year do a PowerPoint
presentation, a walkthrough video of
the facility that they'll be using
for their research so we can make
sure that it's appropriate and safe,
Rupert Isaacson: very wise.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And then once those two, so the board
has chance to watch those presentation
and videos, and then we schedule
times with them where we actually
have a question, a q and a session.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
It's Shark Tank basically.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yes, exactly.
And that's what, but you
know, but that's, but so
Rupert Isaacson: it's so Wise
Pebbles, because in the early days
with Horse Boy when we were naive
we, we still probably are naive, but
you know, we're just getting less.
So now, we trained like loads of people
and we assumed that they had the same
horse knowledge, more or less that we did.
We assumed that their
horse care was pretty good.
We assumed.
We assumed and we got egg on our face
a couple of times and then we're like,
oh, we need an evaluation process.
And it's really interesting, as soon
as we started asking people to show
on video the environment they're
working in, their horses, how they
keep their horses, all of that.
Not to mention the therapy work.
So interesting.
You know, you'd get a certain number
would just like disappear right there.
Mm-hmm.
And then you realize, oh yeah,
the really good people don't mind.
The really good people actually
see the value of jumping through
those hoops because they want
to ensure the quality as well.
Right.
That's what we should do.
And now it's, it's interesting when we
are giving trainings and we say, well,
you can't be a practitioner until you
go through this evaluation process.
It's very interesting.
Sometimes when some people react
negatively to that, you're like,
well, then probably you're not
right for this job because Right.
You know, there's a lot of details
to, you know, to be aware of.
So I'm, I'm very glad
that you, you did that.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I wanna say something about,
yeah, what you said just now about
Shark Tank, which is really funny.
So when I, I first started with HHRF
in 2020 and I was part-time because I
was working on my dissertation myself.
And so then the job has evolved to now
where I'm actually a full-time employee.
But when I tried to, I thought
giving away money was gonna be easy,
like the easiest part of my job.
Like, you get a grant, you get a
grant, you get a grant, like that
could be Oprah kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And And how lovely would that feel?
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
exactly.
But it has been the hardest part of my
job, and part of it is like the first
year that we had grant applications,
we had two come to the board and the
Scientific advisory council said, these
are the two highest rating ones, but
we don't feel great about either one.
So I was like, ah.
So I did give a grant that year.
The next year we had one, I called 'em
up and said, Hey, you, you're the winner.
And they didn't have the
participants, so Okay.
I said, give me some time, let's help you
get some participants couldn't get enough.
Wow.
When you
Rupert Isaacson: actually have to push
a boulder uphill to give people money.
That's bizarre.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
So that one was out.
So the next time I was like, I think
it was something else happened and
I was like, y'all are killing me.
I cannot give away money.
And that's what our purpose
is, is to fund research.
So our board president said, well,
why don't we do something really quick
and fast and do it like Shark Tank?
And I was like, what?
I'm like, we can do Shark Tank.
And he's like, sure we can.
And we'll, we'll have him
like in a room and compete.
And I'm like.
Okay.
Liking this concept, but
let's take it back a notch.
So what we did was, like I said, the
first time was have 'em, I gave them
a list of questions and said, okay,
want you to present on this and we'll
have a q and a session afterwards
and gave them 20 minutes each.
We found out that became a little
long, so we t tweaked it this year
and said, yeah, send in these videos
and answer these questions and
then we'll do a q and a with you.
So it all worked out and it honestly,
I mean it's really showed us who's
really kind of passionate about
it and who really understands
what they're actually gonna do.
'cause there was one at one point in
time that we were like, it wasn't, I
didn't feel confident that they were
confident in what they were going to do.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
So it really is interesting
having a main person.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know, I, I'm sure you do it this
way too, like we, we don't do our
evaluation process like real shark
tank in that it's not like impress
us or we'll tell you to f off.
Yeah.
It's more that if there's obvious red
flags, well then hey, but we've obviously
put, you know, checks and balances
into place to try to be more aware of
that, like before we get to that point.
But what we do with our evaluations is if
we feel that somebody is really got their
heart in the right place, but lacking
knowledge then we'll say, look, we can't
pass your evaluation now, but we will.
We like what you're doing.
We know that you're coming
from a good place here.
If you will work with us to
show you how to do it right.
And even if it takes you two, three
years, are you down with that?
And then we can get you
through your evaluation.
And it's interesting, you know, the,
the really good, the really committed
people are like, yes, of course.
Thank you for the mentorship and the
people who don't feel that way deselect.
Yeah.
When, when you are doing this,
is, is that sort of how you do it?
Will you work with people to, to a certain
degree, get them to where, or given
that you're giving away money, is it
trickier you, you kind of need them Yeah.
To arrive a bit more ready?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Because we're very strong
about, you know, our integrity
and, and keeping it straight.
That if, like I said, if they come to
the, to the table and they don't have
enough information or don't have, if
the Scientific Advisory Council doesn't
give them a stamp, then no, we can't.
But like sometimes for example, there's,
Rupert Isaacson: but can you say to them,
you know, here's what you need to do Yes.
To be worthy, you know, do these
things and then come back to us.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, we do give 'em back their or
give them some feedback from the
scientific advisors so they do get
some feedback no matter who they are.
Mm-hmm.
In the process.
So that helps.
And it's difficult too, I will say,
because, you know, we get, you know,
almost 30 applications all over the world.
Let me back up.
'cause we are international and
we have fun internationally.
Germany, France Canada, several
times as well as America.
So we get applications all over the
world, but I can only give out one.
So it, it makes it difficult,
especially when, you know, people
who apply and you have to send 'em
a letter or call 'em and say, I'm
sorry, you're just not that top one.
You know, and it's all confidential.
I can't, you know, right.
Say, well, this or that, but I will
say in this gra last grant cycle
that we had three really good ones.
And I let the other two know that if
something happens to the, the person who's
supposed to accept, if something happens,
I might be, we might be coming back to
see if, if we could work something out or.
Perhaps they should
Rupert Isaacson: resub
or resubmit resub or
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
something in that area just
because they were that good or
close to being the winning grant.
So that, you know, that does happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So what I'd love to do is I want to
talk to you about equine welfare,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
okay?
Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you know,
obviously in horse boy, this is
a huge deal for us and I'd like
to also talk to you about some
of your best projects to date.
Okay?
But before that, I know you
don't want me to ask you about
this, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
I want to know how you got involved
in this in the first place.
I want to talk a little bit about Pebbles.
Why and why do you call pebbles anyway?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well, you have to watch the Flintstones
to be able to know the name.
But basically I was born and
my mom was gonna not name
me, who her name was Barbara.
I was gonna be Barbara.
And my brother was very disappointed
in the fact that I was a girl.
And he said I should be able to
name 'em, so I'm gonna, oh, she,
she was gonna na name me Babs.
And he was like, well, I
wanna call her Bam, bam.
And 'cause he was a big Flint Flintstone
fan, so they were like, thank goodness
my older sisters were like, no, she's a
girl, you need to call her something else.
And he said, well, pebbles.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you could have
gone through your whole life with
a bone through your hair though.
I mean, it might've been really cool.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And honestly, bam, bam fits me
better 'cause I've been blonde.
That
Rupert Isaacson: such a cool, yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I know.
And I, I'm stronger
than the average woman.
So, yeah, but I, yeah, was
named Bam, bam, I mean, pebbles.
And so here's a little
funny trivia for you.
I have three diplomas and
three different names.
So my undergraduate is Barbara Turbeville,
and my master's degree was with my
married name, which was Barbara Heidrick.
And then I got rid of him and his name.
I legally changed it and became Dr.
Pebbles Turbeville.
I
Rupert Isaacson: love that.
What are you a doctor in Pebbles?
What are you Dr.
Pebbles of?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I'm actually in sports management
with an emphasis in leadership.
Okay.
Mainly because when I started down
this road the United States Sports
Academy was the only university,
higher ed that was online completely.
And that was eons ago.
Now everybody is.
Right.
But so I kind of went that sports
management route just because, and I'm
not a sports fan, which is really funny.
I could care less about professional or
Rupert Isaacson: like, like an academic.
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I know.
I, but because I'm really more
interested in the recreational aspects,
not the right competition piece.
The, that,
Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the
brain aspect in a, in a weird way.
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
yeah, yeah.
You know, and part of that, but like,
I'm more recreational more than sports.
I should say recreational rather
Rupert Isaacson: than competitive.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Correct.
And it's sort of like, you know, Dr.
Helen Sharp I just reached out with her
to help me 'cause I had this concept,
'cause I used to keep quick pause.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
Helen Sharp.
I don't think we have a link
down below, but scroll back
lads through our interviews.
We did a thing with Dr.
Helen Sharp.
She's rad.
You need to know Dr.
Helen Sharp.
Okay, go on.
Sorry.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Good point.
A good shout out.
So I used to teach sports,
going back to where I was.
I used to teach sports
management equine studies, e
therapeutic horsemanship classes.
And I just had this concept about how,
I'm gonna sidebar for a second here, like
you did, about how horses help humans.
And I used to teach a wellness class,
and we used to talk about wellness
and the eight dimensions of wellness.
And some of those dimensions
change depending on who or who
wrote it and who's doing what.
But, well, Aren, you know.
This is what this is.
This is what really horses do.
So if you look at, one
is emotional wellness.
Okay?
They help with anxiety, depression, or
self-esteem, physical wellness, you know,
improving balance, coordination, stronger
muscles, social wellness, improving social
skills, empathy, teamwork, spiritual
wellness, being mindful presence,
you know, environmental wellness.
We just talked about that whole
aspect of nature being around land.
Occupational wellness.
And that can be from job skills,
career development, and nutritional
wellness, which is a little bit of a
stretch, but there are some studies.
All this is, again, facts.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: good
for us to eat horses.
Sorry, I'm just kidding.
No,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
no.
Nutritional wellness as far as
like improved body image, there's
a lot of like support for recovery
for people with eating disorders.
Mm-hmm.
But healthier lifestyles as far as
like being able to eat, you know,
nutritionally better agriculture education
just movement supports nutrition.
So anyway, I was struggling with this
article and I kind of like turned over
what I had to Helen and then she did
this beautiful job of writing it up.
But it is true, like horses help us
in all those different dimensions.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
They get from us.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
That it,
Rupert Isaacson: so you've become a PhD
in non-competitive sport management?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Actually it's, it's a EDD it's
a, it's a doctorate of education.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
How do you end up with the horses
in Humans Research Foundation?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Okay, so I taught at St.
Andrew Andrew's University for
almost two years in Scotland.
It was in Laurinburg, North Carolina.
Okay.
But it was in Scotland County,
so it was very much Ah,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
A sister city.
And we had a strong equestrian
program there and that
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We actually
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
had a therapeutic horsemanship
degree for your degree.
Okay.
Wow.
And so that was ahead of its
Rupert Isaacson: time.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Again, it was, yeah.
And I taught there and kind of,
departed just because of administration.
It was just changing and I was not happy.
And so 2020 was like that year of
evaluation where you wanna be in
life with the pandemic going on.
So I was like, nah, I'm gonna take a
sabbatical from life and finish up my
dissertation 'cause I don't have time
to do it because I was teaching multiple
classes and running a program, et cetera.
So, I left and ironically the
college or university has closed
now it's one of those liberal
arts college that has fallen.
But, so that's when I was on
the development committee.
HHRF and they didn't have an
executive director, so I was like,
Hey, I can do it part-time while
I'm working on my dissertation.
I haven't like, worked as a
executive director in a long time.
But we could do it part-time and
do it as an intermediate you know,
just to see if this is something
that would be good for both of us.
And three months in, we were sold.
So I, I was like a kid in the candy
store because I felt like there
were so many things we needed to
fix and to grow the organizations.
And part of it was we were giving
out a grant like once a year for
research and then that was it.
So you'd raise money, give out a grant,
and then you just kind of twiddle your
thumb waiting for the results to come
in because that didn't happen overnight.
Usually takes a year or two.
So.
We were like, we need to do
something with education, because
people don't understand research.
They don't there's a disconnect
between researcher's language
versus a practitioner's language.
The practitioner doesn't embrace
it, doesn't understand it.
And also it changes all the
time because it, you know,
research builds upon each other.
It changes.
So yeah, that's how we started with
the education program and started
doing a webinar once a month.
That became really great.
Everybody was receptive.
It was changing between educational
topics to equine wellbeing topics.
And then all of a sudden we got the
good, everybody wanted to do two.
So we do two a month.
These are free.
Okay.
We offer 'em again once we have 'em, we
record 'em, put 'em on YouTube channel.
They're evergreen.
We have over a thousand subscribers now.
The views on 'em range all over
the place from a couple hundred
to a couple thousand, depending
on the topic and the speaker.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you get involved.
Yes.
You start the interesting process of
giving out money for studies, you.
Open up the education side.
Give me your, how many
years you, you're in now?
Five years.
Five years?
Almost six.
Mm-hmm.
Give me your highlights of the
grants that you've given out.
I mean, honestly, that's
probably each year.
And talk to me about what studies
have you funded in that time and
why are you excited about them?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Wow.
Well, let me back up.
And because of the fact that I came
on during the pandemic, that was
also a tough, tough time because we
had a research study that was going
on, but they had to hit the pause
button because of COVID and having
to be, to be able to wait for it.
So that was part of and that actually
was with university of Prince.
Edward Island with Dr.
Lori McDuff.
And that was a veteran study that,
the great part about that study was
not only were they looking at the
veterans, but they were also because
Lori McDuffy is actually a veterinarian.
But her cohort Dr.
William Mopar was actually the human side.
Okay.
So he was looking at the changes with
the, the veterans and she was looking
at the changes with the horses.
Okay.
So I think that was one of our first
ones that really looked at both.
And then from there, like I said,
from the beginning, it
was hard giving out money.
So there was a bit of a gap, right?
Because once we went through
2020 and we then we raised some,
had some money to give away.
We couldn't, we didn't have the studies.
They didn't have the
participants, so it took a while.
So we did our first innovative grant which
was given to Baylor University where Dr.
Beth Lanning used this new equipment
functional near infrared, spectro,
I can't say the word spectro.
Rupert Isaacson: Try
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Kobi spectro.
T so spec
Rupert Isaacson: T,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
or No, it's not T, it's SC Scope.
Scope.
So like trauma
Rupert Isaacson: scope?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yes.
It's actually the, I
like the abbreviation.
Let's just call it the F-F-N-I-S.
Rupert Isaacson: FFNI.
What, sorry.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
F-N-I-S-F-N-I-S.
Yeah.
So it's a wearable.
Apparatus that looks at the brain, it
scans your brain, not the sort of like an
Rupert Isaacson: e EEG
that you wear while riding
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Correct.
But it looks at the top layer of your
brain and what changes are going on.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And I feel really embarrassed.
I can't say that.
That would be
Rupert Isaacson: the, that would be
the, the cortex that that's on the top.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
so that was an innovative study.
And the great part was, it was really
kind of a brainstorm that kind of came
out of one of the conferences that we had.
So we had a conference and some
of these researchers got together
and they were like, oh, what
if we did this and did that.
And it was like interdisciplinary.
All of them were like from different
schools and they just chatted about it
and then all of a sudden they were like.
So Dr.
Lanning applied for the Innovative
study and actually the innovative
study was $10,000, and that piece
just helped them use two sites.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because it was travel funds.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I could,
I could see that from what the
work that we do, horse boy.
Mm-hmm.
Frequently a $10,000 grant makes
a difference between us being able
to like, send a couple of people to
a couple of places to gather some
information, to crunch numbers to,
you know, it, it, it's interesting,
it often doesn't actually take as
much money as people think it does.
So I, I think these types of small grants
are actually really good because what
they do is they, they give you a kickoff
and then, as you know, larger foundations
will often give you a matching grant.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
So if you can go and get like that
innovative grant for 10 k, maybe someone's
giving you a matching grant for 50 k, well
then you are a fifth of the way there.
Right.
You know, so, yeah.
And
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
actually it was the reverse for us
because they already had a big grant.
They needed the little innovative
grant to help them with travel funds.
Ah.
So it helped them.
But as you said, because it was an
innovative grant and they were just
kind of trying it out to see if it
would work, then it allowed them
to one of the investigators who
was on that innovative study Dr.
Corey Smith applied.
And he's doing the same type of work,
the same type of mechanism, but he's
using it with children with autism.
Okay.
So, and it's Co
Rupert Isaacson: o Gordy.
Gordy Smith,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Corey.
C?
Yeah.
CO Dr.
RY.
Is
Rupert Isaacson: that a a man or a woman?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
It's a man.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I'm just gonna quickly
Google while you're talking.
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Takine equine integration aimed
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absolutely gives you this.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Okay.
Well you could just go to our
website and go under their research
tab and funded, and you can see all
the funded studies that we've done.
Okay.
And he's at, he's at the top.
Okay.
And then you could also say the word
that I cannot say, but anyway, so he's
doing a 10 week manual based therapeutic
riding intervention with horses using
this equipment, but he's also having
the horses wear equipment so that they
can measure their heart rate and so that
we know how it's affecting the horses.
Okay.
So.
All of our studies now too.
The board has decided that not only
when we fund human, the human side,
we want to fund the horse side.
So we want people to look at both.
Absolutely.
And part of it is that equine
wellbeing piece which is
Rupert Isaacson: where
I wanted to go next.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Okay.
Now, but let me, I can get you there.
Yeah, go ahead.
And the sense that, again, Molly, being
Molly and ahead of her time five years
ago, she was like, I think we need
to do an equine wellbeing committee
and just really focus on how we can
make our horses healthier and happier.
So with that, she started the
equine Wellbeing Committee and we
implemented the five domains that.
Dr.
David Mahler and his associates had
created so we were kind of a little
bit of ahead of our time at, at
that point in time too, because what
Rupert Isaacson: are those five domains?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I'd be glad to tell you.
So one is, it's kind of similar
to the dimensions that I was
telling you about wellness.
Mm-hmm.
But they're five, which
anyway, one is nutrition.
The second one is physical environment.
Mm-hmm.
And three is general health concerns.
Four is behavior, and the fifth is
the mental state, which really, it
all kind of comes together as far
as the whole mental state aspect.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, it's really interesting
because you come up and, and you
know, we were just talking about
writing lessons and things about
how traditional things work.
You have these.
Strip pieces of land pasture, you
put your horses on it and you think
your horses are gonna be happy.
Well, you know, that typically is
not what wild horses are happy about.
You know, they roamed around and land
and the woods and the pastures, you know,
and that's part of that whole physical
environment is having that place for them
to be able to roam and explore and, you
know, look around, see obstacles, be in
the shade, be in the sun, you know, that,
that, you know, we don't deal with slope,
Rupert Isaacson: deal with rocks,
deal with different things under foot.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Different wildlife coming through.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
And what we do is just strip the land,
put some grass on it, put 'em out there
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And a
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
fence.
You know, and they really
need that stimulation
Rupert Isaacson: Mm,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
enrichment piece.
Mm.
Sort of like what things I do with
my dog, instead of just giving him
my treat, I throw 'em around the
room and make him hunt for him.
Yeah.
You know, as far as that's part
of his enrichment that he gets.
Yeah.
So implementing those five domains
and it's just part of it, kind of
going back to the education piece.
Okay, yeah.
We have these five domains, but
how do you put 'em in a practice?
So again, that comes back to our piece
of education you know, saying that here
we go, that, you know, we have these five
domains, but how do we implement them?
How do we put 'em in the practical use?
So that's, that's part of it.
And we just had a webinar with a
farm field, Fieldstone farm when
I was just mentioning a while ago
that they had a turnover in staff.
So the new barn manager was like, okay,
well before I go into the old routine,
let's look at and evaluate our horses.
And they had some horses that
were sour biting, not happy.
So they looked at all the five domains.
They didn't realize it was, they didn't
know it, it was the five domains,
but it was and they made changes
with their vet and their farrier.
And sure enough, not only did it
save 'em money, which is not always
was, you know, a lot of people perk
up when you say save them money.
But yeah, their horses are happier.
They're not biting anymore.
They're not sour.
They're, yeah, they're
happy to do their jobs.
They have horses that had like,
had to have a extra training.
Volunteer can be led now with
an, you know, intermediate or new
volunteer because they're, the
horse is like, okay, let's go.
I'm happy now.
So I think that that piece too, of
implementing this new research that's
so, and it shouldn't be really new is
all, well, 2020, that's five years ago.
But implementing these pieces so
that our horses are ha healthier and
happier are gonna help all humans too.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
No, I, I so agree.
I mean, one of the things which our
organization is it's foundation for us
is if the horse does not have wellbeing
in itself, it cannot give wellbeing.
To a human, it just can't I
can't give wellbeing to you
if I don't have wellbeing.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Mm-hmm.
So
Rupert Isaacson: if I, you know,
run myself ragged with jet lag,
which I currently am, yeah.
I have a limited ability to give
to you if you let me sleep for, you
know, a couple of days and, you know,
get into my groove that goes up.
But it's of course much more than this.
And one of the things which I've often
been a bit puzzled by in the past
is because I grew up very much in
the kind of hunting eventing world.
Mm-hmm.
I've, now I'm kind of known as this
dressage guy because of the connection
with collection and oxytocin, which
helps people feel better and speak so.
I ended up coming in through the
back door to dressage, but that's not
where I began my equine life at all.
And what we really emphasized was
fitness and fitness wasn't just
cardiovascular, it was tendons.
So the whole frame of the horse had to
stand up to, you know, planet earth.
And it was also mental emotional,
meaning that if you are out on a
hunt somewhere, you know, and you
end up in some funky situation, your
horse has to be kind of like, yeah,
sure, I can, I can deal with that.
Yeah, yeah, no worries.
Rather than, oh my god, it's,
you know, a firetruck or it's
something I haven't seen before.
The horse is like, even if it's
something I haven't seen before,
I kind of trust you, my monkey,
my sky monkey sitting on me.
That you wouldn't put me in a position.
That was unreasonable.
So, okay, I'll, I'll give this a whirl.
You know, and I was really amazed when
I entered the therapeutic riding arena
that this was not prioritized at all.
None of these things were right.
As long as all was required
as the horse is quiet.
Yeah.
Right.
And it didn't matter if he was limping.
It didn't matter if he
was sore in the back.
It didn't matter if he
was biting his handler.
And frequently what I noticed was they
would usually cut a break to the special
needs person on their back, but they would
take it out on the person who was leading.
They had to put it somewhere.
Right.
And when I first began to ask
therapeutic riding places about this,
like, where's your fitness program?
Where's your enrichment program?
Where's your lunging and in-hand program?
Where's your yoga program
for the horse, effectively?
Mm-hmm.
They'd be like, F off.
Like they would meet me with
a kind of a, an aggression.
And it was the same aggression
that I got met by when I was
dealing with the one-horse world
of therapy with behavioral therapy.
When I was like, well, this
kid's obviously unhappy.
Why don't we change something
about what we're doing here?
'cause if I was in a round pen with a
horse and it was like trying to climb
out through the window effectively the
fans, which a lot of these kids do in
those types of sessions, I'd change
something because if I don't, I might die.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So, and then I get greeted with
this kind of, well, you dunno
what you're talking about.
And you're not a professional.
No, no, no.
And I'm like, oh, I see.
So you need to get aggressive with me now.
Ooh, why do you get aggressive?
Well, people get aggressive when
they're afraid of something.
What are you afraid of?
You must know deep down that
your shtick doesn't really work.
So what's interesting to me
is that that's now changing.
I think it's fair to say that in the
therapeutic equine assisted environment
people are now much, much more
concerned with equine assisted, sorry,
with fitness and equine wellbeing.
But there can still be a disconnect,
I feel, because many people who get
interested or attracted to equine
assisted work, work don't necessarily
come from very strong horse backgrounds.
They might or they might not.
Mm-hmm.
They might come in with a set of
philosophies about what horses
are, think and feel, which
might or might not be born out.
And then suddenly people are in a sort
of debate, whereas, as you say, you
can bring it back to some very simple.
Things, which is, are
you okay in your gut?
Are you okay in your living conditions?
Do you have friends?
Do you have some freedom of movement?
Are you fit, are you subtle?
Do you feel like good or do
you feel like, ooh, stiff?
Because of course our best therapy
horses are best equine assisted horses.
Are you usually gonna be seniors
because they're the ones with
the accrued experience that, you
know, just like good professionals
of any, you know, any species.
So now that you are aware
of this, are you taking it?
Where are horses and
Newmans taking it now?
Those of us who know our work know that
we are big on lunging in hand work and
long reigning because we know that we can
kind of reverse age and rehab messed up
horses that get given as donation horses
and, you know, we can often assuage
their old injuries and help 'em out.
Are you looking at this
kind of thing as well?
How are you developing, I guess, from
this basic five things to further
things to sort of try to ensure
equine wellbeing as best you can?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
With that said, and a little
sidebar, Christina Wilkins does
a course on the five domains that
I've taken and I highly suggest it.
Rupert Isaacson: Who is Christina Wilkins?
Tell us about Christina Wilkins.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
She actually worked with David Mahler
and she does horses and People magazine.
She's in Australia.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I'm looking her up right now.
Chris, Christine Wilkins.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yes.
And the reason she does a
lot with equitation science.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
So you can probably find
her, find her with that.
And it's cr.
I-S-T-I-N-A.
She's a PhD candidate.
But she's she, she really had, to me,
she was like a, she's super smart.
Okay.
But Christina Wilkins does a five
domains course that I highly suggest.
And it's not that expensive.
I think it's like maybe 120 or $140.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
But,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
and after taking it, I was, there's
just so much material in it, I
kind of feel like I need to go back
and take it again because she does
an excellent job of teaching it.
But
I'm
Rupert Isaacson: looking it up right now.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
So the, and I think that's the
other thing too, Ru is about, about
why we do podcasts and we want.
Like, we don't want to like say we
are the only ones who are doing this.
Right?
We want everyone to know, these are really
great people, these are great resources.
You know, sharing and caring and
just letting the world know all
these different places that you
can find information and research.
But I think part of what we do now is try
to implement these through our webinars.
For example, we just had one
yesterday about Mustangs.
She was great.
And I think a lot of it is
like with Mustang training,
it, you have to watch behavior.
Mm-hmm.
And not a lot of sort of,
kind of taking a step back.
A not a lot of people watch behavior
and maybe you, you and I grew up around
horses, so we kind of, I don't know
about you, but I think I'm was like very
regimental, like, you know, British.
Kind of drill teams, this go fox hunting,
you go show hunting, blah, blah, blah.
I really didn't.
Oh yeah, I know.
Rupert Isaacson: I totally
grew up with all that.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
And I really didn't get
into watching behavior.
I really started more, most of
that journey in the past 20 years.
But I feel like that's a piece of
horsemanship that all of us should
have, and all of us should know.
And that's like part of, part
of our educational pieces
is to have that out there.
So we do that through webinars.
We also do that through our
conference for the example,
this new our conference in 2026.
We're having our first pre-conference
horse fair day that is all about
being at the barn and doing things
with horses on February 27th.
And then
Rupert Isaacson: on what's that gonna.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
It's in Kissimmee, Orlando, Florida.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when
in, when in February?
Is that
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
It's February 27th is our pre-conference.
Okay.
And then our conference is actually
February 28th and March 1st.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
I'm gonna be in Florida around that time.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
You need to come.
Rupert Isaacson: I will absolutely come.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And our keynote speaker is Dr.
Steven Peters.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, wonderful
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
man.
Yeah, he did our excellent job
being a keynote speaker for his
last year to the point where I was
like, who do we get to top that?
So asked him to come back.
Rupert Isaacson: Excellent,
excellent choice.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And and we have a track
we have three tracks.
One is for researchers or
research, or current research.
One is on equine wellbeing.
All dedicated to equine wellbeing.
And then their other one
in the middle is program.
So sometimes, you know, we have
things that are just for program
people or trying a new program or
don't really fit in research but
don't fit in equine wellbeing.
So I kind of in the middle.
So that's where we kind
of dedicate our, our work.
And there's some programs I think that
we are going to start to develop and
work with other organizations that
are working with horses with youth.
So hopefully those will be they're
just in the, the creative stage.
We'll see How, can you tell us
Rupert Isaacson: who some of those are?
Or do you want to keep that quiet for now?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
We'll wait and see how it goes.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Fine.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
But yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you, you
are really building up this equine
wellbeing piece, by the way, I have
a, I have to do a shout out to her.
We, I have a proposition for you, for
a keynote maybe for the next year.
Okay.
Joel Dunlap.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Square Peg Foundation,
California the last 25 years mostly
rehabbing thoroughbreds off the
track and polo ponies putting 'em
through a classical in hand and
long reigning program and getting
the most extraordinary results.
And now they've got two campuses near San
Francisco and now they are one of the big
mental health providers for for mental
health in San Mateo County, which is.
Silicon Valley.
Yeah.
But she started as a 16-year-old
single mom with a special needs kit.
Wow.
Wow.
Working in the shi end of the racing
industry, working on the tracks.
Ah, yeah.
So like, she knows she's,
she's paid her dues.
And Joel one of my, she's one
of my great heroes, but she
really has all the pieces I feel.
And she's spoken alongside people like Dr.
Steven Peters and so on before, but I,
yeah, I'd recommend her to you anyway.
That's, that's okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Great.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I wanted to mention too, you is that we
do have an innovative, and I know this
might be dated because this is gonna be
on YouTube, but currently it means it's
Rupert Isaacson:
evergreen, not, not dated.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yes.
Excuse me.
Yes.
Evergreen is one of our favorite words.
And it's we have an innovative
grant that's due December 5th.
That is all about the horses, right.
And just horses.
So, that's something that we're trying
to also bring about that we want to
not only do, like I said, when we
do a call for human side, we want
people to look at the horse side.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
But we also are trying to do
things for horses strictly.
And part of this innovative
grant, it's an honor.
This great man who passed
away about, broke my heart.
He was on our board, Dr.
Mark Chrisman who worked
for Zoetis Equine.
And Zoetis helped us with this
grant by sponsoring it with 5,000.
And then we raised the other five from
other people friends of Mark's or those
who are just excited about horses.
But.
You know, part of that is that we, the
project is really based on the five
domains and how to incorporate that five
domains and techniques or applications
with daily assessment of equines.
So how do you implement those five
domains and how can you make sure
that you're kinda assessing that?
So that's part of the 10,000
innovative grant for this year in 2026.
But I'm sure we'll be having excuse
me in 2025 getting ahead of myself.
But I'm sure we'll have some in 2026 too.
We haven't made a decision yet about
what our big grant will be for but we'll
have the, right now our plan is to have
150,000 for for a big grant for horses and
humans, and another 10,000 for innovative.
In 2026.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So let's look ahead Yeah.
In a perfect world, right, you would
be sitting on some millions mm-hmm.
And you'd be able to give grants that
are much more significant that way.
How do you envisage
growing towards that point?
And then how do you, once you get to
that point, and I'm sure you will,
'cause I've watched you guys grow
and I I can absolutely see the day
clearly when Pebbles is, you know,
giving a million quid to somebody.
Oh, I love it.
And, and I mean, and up so
on the sidelines, pomp on me.
Thank you.
Because, you know, because
we need this, we need this.
Where these things get tricky,
as you know, is that kind of
money can end up being very much
sequestered by the academics and.
Then it gets ivory towered rather
than looking to those people that are
doing the really innovative stuff.
I'll put myself out there for that.
You know, when we were first new on the
scene, I mean the, the sort of existing
powers that b 'cause they're still there.
Within the therapeutic writing thing,
just try to like blow us out of the
water like they reacted with hostility.
It was shocking actually.
As an autism dad, I was like, wow, you're
supposed to care about people like my son.
You don't care about people like my son.
You actually just care about, oh, okay.
Good to know.
Right.
Now that you're a gatekeeper and at
a certain point you're going to be.
Passing that hat to another gatekeeper.
How are you gonna ensure that when you
reach that point of giving those really
big grants, which let's face it, the
the field needs, because also the more
money, the more legitimization Right.
You know?
Right.
Very impressed by, you know,
multimillion dollar grants.
How are you gonna ensure that the cutting
edge, that the innovative, that the
small person doing something kind of cool
over there doesn't get like, bumped out?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I think part of it is, and you know, like
if I were to, if we had this philosophical
discussion, like if we received a million
dollars, would just for grant making,
Rupert Isaacson: mm,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
would we just give out
a million dollar grant?
I, I think it might be helpful.
If we did a large grant, but I
don't want to, I want we, excuse me.
We want to make sure that we support
people coming through academics
who are working on their PhD.
I would love to have funds that I could
do scholarships for people working on
their dissertation and have a smaller
grant fund for them, or have those
smaller grants for innovative studies.
So I don't want to put
everything in one bread basket.
I, I really feel like we need to have
like, multiple grants, multiple sizes.
I agree.
So we don't like blow
people out of the water.
Also, also don't want it
Rupert Isaacson: all to be in academia.
Right.
Because what the academics are doing
is they're measuring the stuff that
innovative people are already doing.
Like Right.
Good science follows good practice.
Right?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Correct.
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than
someone saying, I've got a
theory and I wanna prove it.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, and I think part of it is,
is the culture we really want.
We're really working on a culture
where people work together, and that's
why part of it is we want people from
multi-disciplines to work together.
So it's not just in the equine studies
or not just in the exercise physiology.
Like they work together to come
out with the best income for
everybody, not just that one area.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I mean, I, I, I put myself forward for
this with the podcast that I'm doing right
now with you, just full disclosure ads.
Those of you who are
listening or watching.
Horse Boy Foundation, which is us,
has never received a grant from horses
And Humans Research Foundation doesn't
mean we won't apply at some point.
Doesn't mean that pebbles also might
not turn us down at some point.
And I might still be friends with
her if she, if she does that.
But it, let me just
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
give you this disclaimer.
I don't have a vote.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
But I'll still, I'll still be
passive aggressive with you.
I mean, come on.
Don't deny me that opportunity.
Please don't.
But you know what I'm saying.
So, so, so the whole point I'm
bringing this up is that, yeah.
We created this podcast not
just so that we could promote
people that do what we do.
We are always actively looking
for people who do something else.
That's cool.
Yeah.
What can we learn, you know?
Right.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And we're not in our own little bubble.
That's the thing that,
that's great about you.
And
Rupert Isaacson: protecting all Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And protect.
Yeah.
And protecting.
We wanna share, we wanna help everybody.
I kind of say sometimes, and I don't
know if this would float in Europe
or not, that we're Switzerland,
because I don't have, we don't,
are not vested in a certain breed.
I'm not invested in a certain discipline.
I'm not invested in a
certain organization.
I'm neutral.
We're just here to help everybody through.
That's what research's
Rupert Isaacson: always said.
While it sits on the money,
that's why everybody hates them.
Sorry, I'm just, I think
you're a little bit better.
I didn't, but they made great chocolate.
Great chocolate.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
If there's a European
culture piece that or not.
I wish we had a lot of money so
I could be like, switch water.
I think you'll
Rupert Isaacson: though, I,
I, I've, I've watched you grow
from really small beginnings.
Mm-hmm.
I have every faith that.
20 years from now, you'll be
giving out multiple grants.
Much, much bigger, but you
won't be the only ones.
I think that what will have happened by
then is you will have mentored some other
organizations to come in and perhaps
look after some other areas and the,
the pool of money as our work becomes
more legitimized through the work, you
know, that you guys have done as well.
It just attracts more, more dos.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
I will say though, we we're the
only organization that funds
strictly horses and humans.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
There, there are organizations that
do horse research, specific research
organizations that do multiple
animals and horses are included.
Or courses in humans are included
in other type of things, but yeah.
And I would hope that, I'm hoping that
that time clock is a little faster.
Like I'm hoping that it would be
Rupert Isaacson: nice, wouldn't it?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
In the next couple of years,
we have enough funds to be able
to do multiple grants because,
because I'm gonna need more staff.
Because right now I'm
the only full-time staff.
Terry Boggs is our operations manager.
She's been with the organization
for 20 years, does a fabulous job.
She does all the grant applications
and she, yeah, so I'm gonna need,
I'm gonna need more staff, so
that's gonna take some more money.
But all of our funds go strictly
to grants and operations.
So yeah.
And the other thing I need
to tell you, which we didn't
talk about as far as programs.
Is the fact that there's not
a lot of access to research.
So you can go to our website and see the
research that we funded, but underneath
our research tab, we have a link to
our H-H-H-R-F Science Open Collection.
So we have working with science
open and created a place that all
for open research that has horse
and human interaction as well as
equine wellbeing research articles.
So they're, right now, currently
there's 1,158, but that changes daily.
'cause it, there's an algorithm
and it updates overnight, but
that's open research again, that
you can go to that collection and
search for specific things on.
Like, the first one that I just pulled
out was Hippotherapy and Cerebral Palsy.
So, or you can look at equine assisted
Growth and learning model, or the
effect the effect of hippotherapy
with children with cerebral palsy.
I just mentioned that, you know, there's
different ones depending on what you're
looking for, but they're in chronological
order as far as when they came out.
I, I think we did it back for 10
years when we started the collection.
So that right there is a free, again, a
free resource we are offering to everyone
and everyone around the globe accesses it.
I get a monthly report.
It's kind of cool to see who is
looking at it in which countries
Rupert Isaacson: what do
you think is the great.
Neglected or under observed,
underserved area of equine assisted
horses and humans work right now.
Like what do you think?
If you had a perfect world and
you could like say, you know, I'd
really like to shine a spotlight
there, where would it be?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
This is really biased.
Rupert Isaacson: Hey,
we're all subjective.
That's fine.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I really would like to do
some big study on Parkinson's.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And I would would love to do maybe a
matching grant if I could get with Michael
j Fox's foundation and do something there.
I'd love to do something perhaps even
with Christopher Reeves Foundation.
They don't fund research, but they
could fund the program piece if we
could do the research on MS and writing.
I'd like to see there's some smaller
studies going on with dementia.
Okay.
Personally, I like to also see
people who have cancer and who
are going through remission.
Some programs calling like
the Pink Ladies et cetera.
But I think the power of the horse there.
I like to see something
done with the volunteers.
Like, why do people volunteer with
equine assistive programs versus
their library down the street
or the YMCA down the street?
Does he get to hang
Rupert Isaacson: out with ponies?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what is that pony benefit?
Why is that?
I mean, come on.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
So why is that pony helping them in a way
that they didn't get it somewhere else?
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I, you know, I talked to a group yesterday
that deals with high school students.
I, I know that the barn saved
me during high school because
I didn't really, just wasn't my
thing, but the barn was my place.
Rupert Isaacson: Meaning you,
you weren't the homecoming queen.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I was not.
Mm, I was not
Rupert Isaacson: actually, I wasn't,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I wasn't, I wasn't the nerd, but I wasn't
Rupert Isaacson: the queen.
Yeah, exactly.
And it, it's so weird, isn't it?
Within that middle school and high school
experience, which seems to scar people for
the next 50 years unless you fitted one
of those prescribed roles of which they're
only like five you're kind of effed up.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well, I think, and even, and if you
Rupert Isaacson: did fit one of
those roles, you are also effed
up because, you know, yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I didn't learn, I didn't, I
wasn't that traditional learner.
I was experiential learner and I
was stuck in this desk and that
just wasn't thriving for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
The
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
barn was, it was experiential
learning at its desk.
But I would love to do a study
as far as like why kids and it
kept, keeps you outta trouble.
Like the discipline that you learn
the responsibility working with
horses versus maybe basketball or
field hockey or football or whatever.
And, you know, what, are there any
differences there in the sport?
And those shall I,
Rupert Isaacson: shall I throw
my 2 cents in there because, go
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So if you read the old Masters from.
The real old master.
The first old master is a guy called
Ki Cooley, who's writing in th 1350,
I think BC in Nineveh, in Babylon.
And that's how we get our first exercises
in flying changes and things like that.
But it's very fragmented what we
have from him because it was written
on clay tablets that shattered.
So people have pieced together what
they can piece together, but the first
full text that we know is Xenophon.
And that's quite a lot later.
Actually.
It's 400 BC so it's thousands of years
actually, after the whole riding dressy
system, you know, got established.
And he's learning it because he xenophon's
Athenian, but he goes to Persia as a,
as a mercenary, and he ends up on the
losing side and he has to get home.
And he learns all his horsemanship
and all his cavalry stuff there,
and he brings it back to Athens.
He survives.
He writes a book, and what he says is, if
you really want to get control of yourself
emotionally, particularly as a hotheaded
young adult training horses to a high
level is a really good way to do this.
Because if you lose control of
your emotions, you lose the horse.
You could lose your life.
And you certainly won't get the job done.
And he emphasizes, even though he's
a mercenary, he emphasizes kindness.
So interesting.
And he then goes on to become, okay.
So there's other reasons
why Zenon is famous.
He's also the right.
The, some people say he's the
founder of Stoic philosophy.
Other people say he's not.
But let's say he's a philosopher and he's
best mates with who his best friend is.
Plato Who?
And they're both students of who, they're
both students of Socrates, you know, so
you've got this dude coming out saying,
lads, if you wanna like, get control
of your, your shit you might wanna look
at this kind of horse training thing.
'cause it will force you to
get out of your own arss.
And then much later you have P
Veel and to Veel in Renaissance
Barak France writing about the same
time that Shakespeare is writing.
And he says to the French King.
You know what Sya our
aristocracy is out of control.
Our young men just kill each other in
deals, which means that the economics
of the estates that they inherit
just get fragmented and fragmented,
and that's not good for anybody.
And then if they survive
that, what do they do?
They go on to fight either religious
wars or civil wars against the crown.
You know, we are never going to rival
Spain, our neighbor to the south where
I happen to be sitting right now.
Yeah.
With all that money coming in from the
Americas, unless we can get control
of our ruling class, what I propose
Siah, is that we set up four schools
within France of horsemanship for
young aristocrats to chill them the
F out and get them to actually get
away from their own egos a little bit.
And the French king goes for it.
Yeah.
And that's why we have
all of these French words.
That's why we have dressage and pf and
sage and, and trave and all these words.
Right?
It's because they kind of put a
nationalistic stamp on it, even
though the thing is actually
invented like thousands of years
earlier in where Asia meets Europe.
So what's interesting with what
you're saying is that there is a
longstanding tradition of horsemanship
and the humanities, which I think
hasn't been looked at for a while.
Yes.
Right.
And when you're dealing with like
at-risk youth, gang youth, yes.
People survive.
The, the lady I talked about earlier,
Joel Dunlap, square peg Foundation,
big with autism, but where she cut her
teeth was with runaway prostitutes from
the Tenderloin in, in San Francisco.
And dealing with these girls,
bringing their gang fights into the.
And she had to step in a couple of
times when people were genuinely trying
to kill each other and say, listen,
we're trying to help a pony out here.
Can we not, you know,
look at something else.
And people, and they did.
So I'm, I'm wondering
if that thing with Yeah.
Horses and humans and the humanities.
Have you got anything up your sleeve with
that or are you just looking at it, or?
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
well no, I love that whole concept
about kindness because I feel like
in this world right now, we're
missing kindness and empathy.
Rupert Isaacson: So true
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
in this country.
Especially but I, I would love to
do something and you know, that's
why I'm like, when you asked me
which research, I'm like, oh, I'd
love to, you know, they just cut
taking the Mustangs out of prison.
Rupert Isaacson: Prison.
I just heard this myself.
Yeah.
And
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I'm so sad about that.
'cause I would've loved
to have research on that.
I would love to have.
Foster kids and, and horses.
Mm-hmm.
I, if I had a, a billion dollars,
I'd set up a ranch right now and
put, have a foster kid program.
'cause those kids fall through
the system and it's horrible.
I, I think I'm wishing a
Rupert Isaacson: billion
dollars on you right now.
Watch my head.
Okay.
Thank you.
There it goes.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I So billion dollars
Rupert Isaacson: for pebbles,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
so we could put that, those
kids on a ranch and have that
environment to be able to out.
We need
Rupert Isaacson: 10 of those
ranches in every state is
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
what we Oh my gosh.
We do.
You know, and it's, you know, going back
to like, just the whole fact that people
get involved with drugs and alcohol.
Like if they just were
at the barn with horses.
It would just be a different world.
What do you mean
Rupert Isaacson: alcohol?
Sorry, you go.
But this is organic.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
But you know, it's just
that, that purpose.
But I do, there's so many
different research studies that
we could do, how horses help all
different types of populations.
But number one, I think we also need
to go back to researching the horse.
And I think behavior is one
thing, looking at that and help.
But also if you were looking at
programs too, I think equine assisted
learning, which right now is hardened.
At least this country, because
we can't decide on a definition.
We don't know what exactly it's,
is it coaching, is it education,
is it this or is it that?
Who's qualified?
Who has the criteria?
And I don't think there's a
specific things that are kind
of right, because education
Rupert Isaacson: by its very
definition is a very broad term, right?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, so you know,
at one, when I was at St.
Andrew Andrew's University, we
used to call it therapeutic riding.
It was a degree in that, but I was
like, no, we're gonna do horsemanship.
'cause I want them to know all
about horses, not just riding.
It needs to be all encompassing.
And I think part of, we're missing
a little bit of that too with our
current riding programs because.
You know, we had to brush a horse, get him
ready, unt attack 'em, take care of 'em.
You got in trouble if you
let sweat marks on 'em.
Like you, you had to
take care of your horse.
Yeah.
But now you just show up to the barn
and you get on your horse, you do a
LA lesson, and you're out of there.
And I think we're missing that
whole, you know, there's many
articles about the barn, rats.
You know, we just,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Used to hang, I used to hang out all
day Saturday at the, at the barn.
We,
Rupert Isaacson: we all did.
You know, you know what, what, what's
so weird about that is that of course
we've entered into a conversation, which
probably needed to happen, of those of us
who were barn rats sometimes got abused.
However, I would say that when those
situations came my way, I could
discern better in a barn situation.
Than I could in say, a school situation
or a choir situation or other things
that I would, institutions that
I was put into, because the horse
always gave one perspective, right?
The horse, like dogs or whatever,
you know, would very quickly pick
up on if things were not cool.
Um mm-hmm.
And if one looked to one's horse, if
one looked to one's dog, one could often
have a great barometer as a vulnerable
tween that maybe this is not so cool.
Whereas in say, choir or rugby
club or wherever, there might
not have been that barometer.
Animal intelligence animal
emotional intelligence.
Mm-hmm.
I think, you know, what I was trying to
get to there with Zenon and Pelle and
these guys was they're really talking
about emotional intelligence, right?
They're saying,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
What I would be very excited to
see with horses and humans Research
Foundation is ex explorations
into emotional intelligence.
Mm.
Human and horse.
Because I do think that, well, I
don't think we, I think you and I both
know, and I think most of the people
we're preaching to the choir here.
I think most, most of the viewers
and, and listeners know that a lot
of our emotional intelligence we
got from horses and dogs mm-hmm.
And perhaps wildlife as well, if we
were lucky enough to be around those.
Yeah.
When it's just humans, it's a tall order
because you don't have that neutral
what's, what's the word, dispassionate.
Not looking at coming down
in favor of one or the other.
Emotionally, horses are so
amazing that way because we've
used them to commit acts of great
sociopathic atrocity on each other.
Conquest happened on the back
of a horse ships as well.
Yeah.
You know, but the horse didn't go out
there saying, you know what I want to do?
I want kill everybody.
These monkeys from the
Pacific to the Mediterranean.
Let's say you're in Mongolia, you know, in
the 14th century under, you know, Genghis
Kahan or something, you know, the horse.
They're like, I don't know.
No, this, this monkey on top and
you know, I'm supposed to go there
and I'm supposed to go there.
They lend you their power, but you could
use the horse to heal in the same way
that you can use the horse to harm.
The horse is then innocent in that.
However, we, I think we all know which
one the horse would prefer, you know?
You know, if, I think if you interviewed
a horse and like put the microphones at,
so, equ Equ would you, would you rather
go into a storm of Meek Cleavers and,
and admittedly you love your human and
you are innu to this and you're brave.
Would you rather do that?
Or would you rather help
that kid over there?
Have a nice time?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think we, I
think we know what they'd say.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Or
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
go eat grass.
Maybe they don't even
wanna be with a human.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe
a bit of both, you know?
Yeah.
You know, I, I think back to my son, you
know, Rowan, when he was still nonverbal
and he would learn about life by sitting
very, very, very close to horses and goats
because that's what we happened to have.
And watching the meat.
And commenting on how they eat.
And like he would get down on his haunches
and really look and really comment on
the, the noises and the rhythm and why did
they eat that thing, but not that thing.
And you know, the detail of it.
So as you say, the horse can just
graze and he's still gonna heal us.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And open your mind.
It's a whole new experience.
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.
Mm-hmm.
Alright.
Wow.
So listen, pebbles, how
do people contact you?
How do people, how.
Have the honor of being turned
down by you when they, when
they submit their research.
Talk us through what, what the process is.
I know you've got big grants, little
grants, innovative grants and so on.
So people obviously are listening
to this and they're gonna think,
okay, I'd like to put in a Grant.
Pebbles and Horses and
Humans Research Foundation.
How do they do it?
Where should they do it?
What's, what's the mechanism?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Okay, so typically we have our call for
our big grant in February or March, and
it's due in the middle of the summer.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And the reason being is most
of our scientific advisors are
involved in higher education.
So they're off, so they have
time to evaluate those grants.
And then we do our innovative grant
call early summer around June.
Sorry, I'm using terms that.
Not everybody's on the same season.
So it's in June or July, and
it's usually due in December.
Okay.
And because it's so small, it's a smaller
one, it's easier for them to go through.
And so for example, I'm almost
ready to award our $150 grant.
We have the paperwork signed.
We're just waiting on them
to get their IRB completed.
Rupert Isaacson: What's that?
What's an IRB?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
It's, it's basically it's
kind of an ethical board.
For anybody who's doing research needs
to get their grant approved and make
sure that you're not doing anything.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, right.
The
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
ethics, unical ethics.
Yeah.
On people.
And then there's the iacuc,
which is all about the animals.
So they're just ethic boards for research.
Rupert Isaacson: So lads, listening
to this, watching this, you're gonna
have to jump through some hoops.
Sorry.
Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And on our website, horses and humans.org
under the research tab,
we have the grants.
We have how to fill it out.
We have a video that
explains how to fill it out.
All of that information
is right there for you.
And then the way you contact me is my
email address is ceo@horsesandhumans.org.
Rupert Isaacson: D at
horses and humans dot.
Org.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
Are you ready lads?
Submit your proposals.
Sorry.
Pebbles, you might get a few
more now after this podcast.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
That, that's great.
We, we want great applications.
We really want research that's
gonna be groundbreaking.
You know, we're all about rigorous
research and making sure that
we like, build upon each other.
I mean, if you look at our research
and how many times it's been cited,
that's purpose of good research
is so that it's built upon.
But I don't wanna say to, I think that
research that doesn't really, it's
not, I don't wanna say fail because
it's really difficult to say fail.
It's really that you learn not to do this.
But problem is we don't, one thing builds
Rupert Isaacson: upon another thing.
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
yeah.
But we don't discuss, we
Rupert Isaacson: climb up
on the bodies of our dead.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah, yeah.
But we don't discuss
things that don't work.
Why don't we, so somebody else,
somebody, somebody else doesn't do that.
Like, why don't we talk about
things that we could improve?
Or if this doesn't work, let me share
it with you, Ruth, so you don't do this.
Mm-hmm.
Because I went down this
path and it was wrong.
So it, I, that's one of my, also, one
of our projects that we hope to have
is someplace that we could have like a
Rupert Isaacson: virtual, you know,
what I would love to see with that,
which is a path that we all, I think we
have all gone down in the horse world
and it's been wrong, is factionalism.
Mm-hmm.
Anybody listening to this
or watching this knows that,
oh, there are certain
things that hate horse boy.
And there are, there are hostilities
that, because we're dealing with humans
here, we're dealing with monkeys.
I don't think that should be rewarded.
Now, that's an easy thing to
say because how do you judge?
How do you discern?
But I do think that when the only
way one can discern is if there
seems to be an attempt to shut out a
certain population or a certain group.
For example, there are
entities within the therapeutic writing
community that I feel could be better.
Mm-hmm.
And that I've certainly
come under attack from.
Yeah.
I wouldn't wish them to be
knocked out of the game because
I do see a bigger picture here.
I know that some of the people,
some of the practitioners, many of
the practitioners who've come up
under those, let's say hostile to
me entities have still actually been
able to engage in really meaningful
dialogue with us, and we've been able
to advance our whole field that way.
So it's really about the
advancing of the field.
One of the things that I, I feel is that
we'll all be dead, you know, relatively
soon actually, on the scale of things.
I mean, if you look at, you know, the
Cretaceous era, that's relatively recent.
If you look at the Baroque
era, that's like really recent.
If you look at World War
ii, that's like yesterday.
Yeah.
So
trying to be right isn't.
The point here, right?
The, the, the, the point is
trying to advance the field.
So what I would love to see is
cross-culTurbeville,
cross-disciplinary, yeah.
Stuff being rewarded where people
start to think, ah, instead of thinking
about scarcity, instead of think people
thinking about, oh, you know, if I
get, I'm, I'm this organization and,
you know, if I get a grant from horses
and humans, then I'm legitimized.
And that like delegitimizes
those people over there.
If there was always a
cross-culTurbeville piece, a
interdisciplinary piece required
in every grant application.
Like, who are you working with?
Who are you working with that might even
have a slightly opposing vision to you?
And what are you doing with those
people to advance the field?
Then we know the field will accelerate.
Right.
But if we stay within our own silos,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
eh, eh, eh.
Yeah.
That's what we're hoping for is
that we have lots of people from
different departments working together.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'll certainly
do my damnedest to help that along.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well, thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
appreciate that.
Rupert Isaacson: And just for the record,
anyone who's listening to this, even
those entities that have, you know,
thrown a bit of poo at us, or scarcity.
I, you know, like if these people
get money, then I won't get ID money.
But I think we just
gotta move beyond that.
We gotta move beyond that, you know?
So I, I will gladly back any study
coming in from people that might
have taken a not so sympathetic view
to us, because how does it matter?
You know?
We, we just need to advance the field.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Right.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Good.
All right.
So Pebbles, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming on.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well, thank you.
It's so much fun talking with
you when you do it more often.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to.
Here's a suggestion.
Why don't we do after this
podcast, a little YouTube series,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Ooh.
Rupert Isaacson: Where we just
kind of get to dream and explore.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Ooh, that'd be exciting.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I like it.
Rupert Isaacson: I like
dreaming and exploring.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's my
favorite thing, actually.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
I like it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
All right.
We'll do it.
20.
So standby lads.
We're gonna do this with Pebbles.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
2026 goals.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Because Pebbles, I'm pointing at her here
'cause she's to the right of me, but I, I
don't know if she's there on your screen.
She might be like there or there.
She's very cool.
I was just at a, we were both
at a an event in Mon Missoula,
Montana the Quis Film Festival.
And I would say that pebbles
was one of the unifying.
Influences that and this we gotta have.
So thank you.
I appreciate
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
that
Rupert Isaacson: much respect.
Hat's coming off.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah,
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
because we all need to work together
to make this place a better place.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And if we don't, what are we doing?
Like why are we even here?
Yeah.
Why don't we just go off and become
like divorce lawyers or something.
I mean like why put our energy
into something like this
if we just wanna fight with each other?
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
Well thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: So till the next time.
Jarrah raaf.
Thank you so much.
One last time.
The website and your contact.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
It's Horses and Humans Research
Foundation, and then my email
is C at horses and humans.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, perfect.
So get your grant applications in
lads, and let's see what you got.
Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
And attend one of our webinars and
check out our YouTube channel because we
have lots of educational content there.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Okay.
We'll see you there.
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