Maine Farmcast

On this episode of the Maine Farmcast Colt is joined again by Dr. Jeff Lehmkuhler, Extension Professor and Beef Specialist for the University of Kentucky and Mr. Dan Kaplan, owner/operator of Heartstone Farm in Charleston, Maine. Dan moved to Maine and started a beef farm about 10 years ago. He shares his story on coming to Maine, and how he utilized the skills of his past career to create a vibrant online market for his beef, and how he has diversified into other products along the way. Be sure to listen in to Dan’s insights on marketing, customer acquisition, repeat business, and managing your marketing along with your livestock.

To learn more about Heartstone Farm, please visit:
https://heartstonefarm.com

In complying with the letter and spirit of applicable laws and pursuing its own goals of diversity, the University of Maine System does not discriminate on the grounds of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, transgender status, gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity, national origin, citizenship status, familial status, ancestry, age, disability physical or mental, genetic information, or veterans or military status in employment, education, and all other programs and activities.  The University provides reasonable accommodations to qualified individuals with disabilities upon request. The following person has been designated to handle inquiries regarding non-discrimination policies: Director of Equal Opportunity, 5713 Chadbourne Hall, Room 412, University of Maine, Orono, ME  04469-5713, 207.581.1226, TTY 711 (Maine Relay System).

Creators & Guests

Host
Colt Knight
Colt grew up in a coal mining family in West Virginia where they also operated a small family farm and show horse stable. During academic breaks and between schools, he worked in strip mines across the country. Colt earned his B.S. in Animal Science at the University of Kentucky, M.S. in Animal Science at Angelo State University, and his Ph.D. in Animal Science at the University of Arizona in 2006, 2012, and 2016, respectively. In the fall of 2016, he worked on a postdoc with Dr. Derek Bailey at New Mexico State University. Since 2017, Colt W. Knight works as an Assistant Professor of Extension for the University of Maine where he serves as the State Livestock Specialist. He teaches Introduction to Animal Science (AVS 145) and runs the Maine Grazing Behavior Lab. The core focus of the Grazing Behavior lab revolves around designing and manufacturing livestock tracking collars, engaging in applied grazing behavior research, and assisting other researchers with technology to interpret animal behavior. Dr. Knight’s research is broadly focused on selecting animals uniquely adapted to landscapes and promoting sustainable agriculture. Colt is the current chair for the Society of Range Management Livestock Foraging Behavior Committee, as well as, the North East Region Chair for the National Association of County Agricultural Agent’s Teaching and Educational Technology Committee. He also serves as an Associate Editor for the journal Ecological Processes. Colt is actively engaged in outreach and has delivered over 150 seminars on livestock production since starting his career at the University of Maine.
Host
Glenda Pereira
As the University of Maine Cooperative Extension Dairy Specialist, Dr. Pereira conducts applied research and develops educational programs for dairy and livestock producers across the state of Maine and New England. While the Holstein breed is near and dear to her heart, Dr. Pereira admires the Normande breed and her favorite dairy products are sour cream and ice cream.
Host
Rachel White
Rachel is a Sustainable Agriculture and Livestock Educator based out of Hancock county. Her objectives include education, research, and programming about agriculture in Washington and Hancock counties and with small ruminants and poultry across the state. She is currently a PhD candidate at the University of Maine researching risk of parasite transmission from wildlife to small ruminants and risk reduction methods, including pastured poultry. Her social science work looks at farmer and veterinarian knowledge, attitude, and practice for small ruminant health management and the challenges they encounter with this topic. Rachel is also involved with the University’s One Health and the Environment NRT program. She is plans to include a One Health framework into her programming to address human-animal-environmental health challenges in Maine’s agricultural community. On her farm, Rachel has Finn sheep, laying chickens, seasonal broilers, pigeons, horses, and various fruits.

What is Maine Farmcast?

The Maine Farmcast features weekly conversations with experts from across the country sharing insights and advice for both new and seasoned farmers running operations of any size. Hosted by three livestock specialists from the University of Maine Cooperative Extension, the show brings you world-class expertise paired with practical advice about how to apply cutting-edge research to improve the efficiency and sustainability of your farming operation.

Colt Knight:

Welcome to the Maine Farmcast. I am your host Dr. Colt Knight associate extension professor and state livestock specialist for Cooperative Extension And I am joined today again by Dr. Jeff Lehmkuhler of the University of Kentucky and we have a special guest, mister Dan Kaplan of Heartstone Farm. He runs a grass finishing operation and an online sales operation out of

Colt Knight:

Charleston, Maine. Dan, Jeff, it's good to have you with us.

Dan Kaplan:

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

Good to be here, Colt.

Colt Knight:

And so we wanted to sit down with with Dan today because he just does an amazing job marketing his beef, and he's built kind of an online empire. And we kinda wanted to hear his story and and how he, how he came about his decisions and and how maybe you could incorporate some of these ideas into your operation. So so, Dan, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure.

Dan Kaplan:

I have not been a farmer for that long, although it was it to be honest, was a lifelong dream of mine. I always wanted to farm, but, I spent a bunch of years, kind of being a serial entrepreneur. I started a bunch of different companies and things like media and, technology and stuff like that. And so 10 years ago, when I bought, the farm, I I bought brought some of that background, to it about how to market and, you know, what consumers were looking for and, particularly with, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic when there was so much consumer demand for, they were looking for other sources for beef. You know, that was kinda like the opportunity to get a lot of new customers and kinda, you know, ran with it.

Colt Knight:

Excellent. And so could you tell us a little bit about your operation now, but but maybe how did it begin?

Dan Kaplan:

So when I bought the farm 10 years ago, you know, without really knowing what I was doing, I we started with, you know, I bought 5 cows the 1st year. 4 of them got pregnant, one didn't. We ate that one. The next year, we bought some more and and, you know, started sharing the beef with, some, friends and and family. Just kind of evolved over the years, but but not in a real big scale.

Dan Kaplan:

We were selling freezer beef, you know, sides and, quarters. Put up a website. The website did pretty well. This is kind of pre pandemic, and, you know, we're getting customers in Boston and stuff. One of the things we did, just very specific to beef, was, I think, the 1st year or 2, we sold it as is typically done by hanging weight.

Dan Kaplan:

But, after a couple years, I switched to just selling this is how much meat you get in a package, recognizing that consumers who weren't familiar with hanging weight, that was a really confusing system for them. It's certainly not consumer friendly. It's like, you know, we're gonna charge you for, you know, 700 pounds and only deliver 400 pounds. And they're like, what? So, you know, I try because I was new to farming and and selling beef, I was kinda able to look at things and and, you know, it wasn't like, oh, that's just the way we've always done it, but I could bring a kind of a different approach.

Dan Kaplan:

Had the website, like I said, and then that was getting some good traffic. In the beginning of 2020, just with, my girlfriend and a couple of other people who were working here, we decided, let's ramp up this business not knowing, of course, the pandemic was coming. So we geared up to grow in 2020, and then the pandemic was just like, you know, lots of new customers. It grew from we did about, I think, $225,000 in revenue in 2019. 2020 was, like, 1,100,000.

Dan Kaplan:

It was just, like, dramatic. I remember the month of, like, May 2020, we did, like, $200,000 in business. We didn't have the beef for that, so we were only taking preorders for for later on in the year and stuff. But, you know, people were, like, panicking. They were gonna they needed their meat.

Dan Kaplan:

And then it just it grew kinda steadily. Last year, 2023, we decided kind of again, let's grow this business. Let's because it just seems like there's an opportunity here, and we had figured out some stuff. So we started investing in advertising and more marketing. We also started, partnering with other farms and processors for, we now carry pork, poultry, turkey, and chicken, beef from other, farms that has kind of been vetted by us, curated by us.

Dan Kaplan:

And, you know, one big thing that we've done, and and I don't know. Other farms could do this as well, is the subscription business. So we start selling subscriptions. Right? So you would get a box every month, like a CSA or something like that.

Dan Kaplan:

And that is that was a big part of it because it it creates a habit with your customer where they're where they're always ordering versus, like, oh, let's treat ourselves to some t bones or something. So I think that if you're gonna do an online business, what what I found probably in particularly in the past year is, subscriptions are, like, really the way to go. And and there's a lot of, platforms and and apps that you can use as a direct marketer that help to you know, you don't have to write your own code or anything anymore.

Colt Knight:

Yeah. So one of the things, you know, most folks, I think, when they start out at a small scale in the livestock business, they enter into that custom exempt processing market where they're they're selling locally to their neighbors and friends by the hanging weight, and you have to explain to them, you know, you know, the carcass is 700 pounds but you're only gonna get 300 pounds back or 400 pounds and then you gotta pay the butcher fees on top of what you gotta pay me. And it gets super confusing to the folks that aren't used to that model. But when you switch to selling retail cuts, you add more challenges. Right?

Colt Knight:

Because now you have to store

Dan Kaplan:

And you know, you gotta think about the whole animal. Right?

Colt Knight:

Yeah.

Dan Kaplan:

So, I could sell rib eyes, you know. We, you know, we've tried to find the, genetics where there's more rib eye. You know, we'd like, you know, a 100 pounds of rib eye and 20 pounds of ground beef. There there so I think you gotta think about the whole animal. That's always a challenge because of the I mean yeah.

Dan Kaplan:

The hanging weight thing, I just I never I get that that's how it was always done and that's and that's traditional, but I've always said, like, can you think of some other product, right, where you're where they're explaining you why you're buying, you know, at this number, but we only delivered this number. You know? It'd be like buying a carton of eggs, and they say, well, we're it's 16, but you only get 12. It's if you're gonna sell to consumers, you don't wanna put any kind of anything that causes friction in that, you know, where where somebody says, what is he talking about? That just get rid of it.

Dan Kaplan:

You know? Mhmm. Don't do it. And so for us, it was we said to get 85 pounds of cuts. Here are the cuts you get.

Dan Kaplan:

And, you know, sometimes a a customer will will request, and we'll be glad to oblige them to make a substitution. I want short ribs. I'd rather have this, and we can do that, for the most part. But, I think you're right. That kind of you you really limit your market if you're gonna do the whole, you're gonna pay the processing fees.

Dan Kaplan:

You're gonna pay me hanging weight. It's custom exempt, so you actually own the animal. All that stuff is just you're gonna get it's a very thin, small number of people who are gonna buy that way.

Colt Knight:

Yeah. And then so one of the the hurdles that you were able to overcome, and and you kinda did it in a big way, but when you're storing your retail cuts, you know, most folks are gonna start off. They got a freezer in their garage or something, and you really have to be sure you got backup generators. You wanna you wanna have an alarm that goes straight to your cell phone in case that freezer ever goes down because that beef gets over 40, 45 degrees, it all gets thrown away. And if you got 700 pounds of beef in a in a freezer, the electricity goes out a little bit.

Colt Knight:

Yeah. I mean, that's a that's a

Dan Kaplan:

horrible thing. Maine or something like that, it's gonna happen.

Colt Knight:

Yeah. Right. I mean, the power goes out all the time

Dan Kaplan:

up here. We went I mean, we had so we started, you know, with 1 upright, you know, freezer and then, bought well, we had 3 of those, and then, we actually built, and it's still there, a small walk in freezer. Maybe it's 8 by 8, you know, thinking, oh, that'll be the solution. And, now you know? So right.

Dan Kaplan:

So I think that actually, worked pretty good for a while. Now we have we we, we bought a former meat market, in Dover Foxcroft, which is about 30 minutes away, where they had freezer space. We've actually enlarged the freezer space. One of the things we did if somebody was actually getting the scale is we bought, 2 freezer containers that had been on ships, and and those actually have worked really well. You know, there's a they they're pretty they're whatever they are, 40 by 8 feet, and, those worked well.

Dan Kaplan:

But to your point, every one of those has an alarm on it.

Colt Knight:

Mhmm.

Dan Kaplan:

And I get it on my phone. It's a temperature, you know, even goes up to 32. Right? Because that means something good is not happening. You know?

Dan Kaplan:

So, so far so good.

Colt Knight:

And then one of the unique I remember you showing me this one time when we were at your packaging facility or your shipping facility is you had these really cool, like, dissolvable Yeah. Instead of using styrofoam and plastic because you said your customers were getting tired of

Dan Kaplan:

They hate that. Right. When we were first using, styrofoam shipping to to insulate it, that that it was just a hot button for the customer. You know, there's no what are you supposed to do with this, right, other than put it in the garage and then they, pile up? So we did find, compostable, insulating materials actually made out of corn, and you can put it in your garden.

Dan Kaplan:

You can put it in the sink and and it'll dissolve. We have a little flyer that we put into the package which says, this is the closest our cattle get to corn, because, right, they don't eat corn. So the but that's made out of corn. That made a big difference. We're now using, dry ice, a lot of it, which is really you know, it's gonna be next week, you know, 90 something here, and and, a a packet you know, a thing that somebody, you know, bought online, and it was a $149 and they're all maybe they're even nervous about it.

Dan Kaplan:

Right? That that sounds something they've done before. If that arrives thawed and above 40 degrees, you can explain it was UPS's fault. You can explain the temperature. The you're not getting that customer back.

Dan Kaplan:

Back. It was a bad experience. And, right, you you know, thawed and maybe even smelly meat is not good.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

Mhmm.

Dan Kaplan:

So we we go through a lot of dry ice. And and it's, people can find dry ice. You know? So they sell it, and I would recommend dry ice as the and and overdo the dry ice because, you know, which is kind of what we even do. We'll, you know, if it's gonna be hot, we're just putting extra in and and because we'd rather have that happen.

Colt Knight:

How how far of a reach do you have? I know there's, like, shipping restrictions because you probably couldn't send it to California.

Dan Kaplan:

But We how far could, but so what we do and what other farms could do is it it would be cost prohibitive to send it to California. So we our our footprint is wherever UPS, and we use FedEx some, but UPS mostly can deliver within 2 days. So that's, as far south as Virginia and as far, west as, Ohio. That's their 2 day ground. You know, we average, I don't know, you know, 14 or $15 as a shipping cost.

Dan Kaplan:

And we've looked at you know, because people get customers say, oh, I'm in California or I'm in Kentucky or wherever, you know, could I? And we would have to do, you know, overnight, and then all of a sudden, it's $50. Right? It's and even at a good price that we might be able to get. So, unfortunately, in a way, Maine is, you know, if you wanted to be shipping meat, we're not in the center of anything.

Dan Kaplan:

So right? Our our, you know, we're up here in the corner. So that's just where you know, but it's not bad. UPS is pretty reliable. 99% of packages arrive within the time frame, and and they do in Maine, when we ship, they'll deliver as far.

Dan Kaplan:

All of New England is the next day. So if we ship it at 4 o'clock to Stamford, Connecticut, they get it the next day.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

So one of the things that Colt always emphasizes to people that are starting into this direct marketing is kind of carving out your niche and developing your brand. And it sounds like you've spent a lot of time from your background in that to get feedback from customers. So how did how did you decide on what niche you were gonna do and and how did you establish your brand?

Dan Kaplan:

Yeah. Great question. And I think, actually, we let the customers create it a little bit. We really listened to the customers. So the ones we were getting at at first, you know, just kinda like the language they were using, why this was important to them.

Dan Kaplan:

And, I think we've always been really good at listening to customers. Our website now has, over 8,000 reviews, and and I'm always reading those to see what customers, how they're talking about the experience. One of the things that happened, and I don't even think we invented this. It was just kinda like, this a few people at least started saying, oh, Farmer Dan. Right?

Dan Kaplan:

And so we kinda ran with that a little bit. It's on our website. I'm Farmer Dan. And I think, the piece of that was that people were looking for, meat that they could trust. There's a lot of, mistrust of, supermarket, commodity, big egg, meat.

Dan Kaplan:

You know, what's in it? I mean and so just having the direct connection to the farm and the farmer and, like, you know, I'm getting my meat from farmer Dan. I can picture it. I know who he is. I I think that's a a big part of it.

Dan Kaplan:

So the kind of but that applies to so, you know, to me, there's this big mistrust of of, of, people go up to the farm and to the grocery store, and they don't know, you know, where'd that come from? Is it a is it from probably the US? Is it, these days, we're getting just a ton of these questions about, are you giving mRNA vaccines? It's just a big consumer question. So those kinds of things.

Dan Kaplan:

They're just a lot of mistrust.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

So so what would you describe your product then as tell us a little bit about what the product is.

Dan Kaplan:

We would describe it as, you know, from our farm to your table and kind of emphasizing that's not a marketing slogan. That's a literal description of what we do. And that, we have, raised, our beef, and and and this applies to the poultry and the pork that we get, humanely with a lot of love and care without stress. We don't use, for instance, antibiotics. I mean, we don't use them We don't market the beef if they ever animal requires antibiotics.

Dan Kaplan:

We won't sell that to our customers. And, I think just, you know, the kind of it's it's right from the source and that you can trust us is kind of our positioning, I guess.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

So the the marketing and branding component then, how has that changed? Have you shifted gears on, you know, the expansion that you talked about that that doesn't come easy. Right. So there had to be some kind of effort put forward to get that brand out there through marketing. What was that next step in the marketing that you all took?

Dan Kaplan:

Well, one of the biggest things we did was so we with the pandemic, we got, you know, kind of this big influx of customers and and, what I what I saw. So let's say that was 2020 and 2021 and even into 2022. It was, like, almost like a tidal wave. But then, eventually, it was like, well, that's kind of petering out. That's not you don't have that kind of, organic, let's call it, customer creation.

Dan Kaplan:

So, last September, we made a decision to do a pretty big investing in advertising, and and by that, I mean in, you know, it's on Facebook and Google, and to ramp that up. And that felt pretty risky, but it has, paid off really, really, well. And, you know, we're getting, you know, on average, 20 to 25 new customers a day, through that advertising. We're paying for it, but, the way I look at it is you can't you've gotta, like, say, what how do we increase, you know, the lifetime value of that customer? How do we get them to be a customer, for a while?

Dan Kaplan:

So, I think it the business would have, you know, you you're not everybody's not gonna kinda, like, come and then just order from you forever. You that's just business. Right? You know? So, we gain a customer.

Dan Kaplan:

We hope to keep them for as long as possible, but we have to replenish that supply of customers. And so making the I think it's gonna be hard for anybody to direct market, any farmer to direct market without figuring out where am I getting the customers. Just putting up a website is not gonna be enough. There's gotta be some you you know, you can't open yours can't open a brick and mortar store and just hope that people will come, and and the same is true online, I think. So

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

No. It's good. I I think the other part of that that you mentioned is retention, and and if you're gonna direct market, you've probably seen that you really do have to enjoy interacting with people some. Right? Because there's there's always the great discussions and the great feedbacks, but there are some some negative ones sometimes and you have to be able to handle those.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

So what what would be some of the recommendations that you would have for somebody thinking about beginning to direct market? What would be those first couple of suggestions on how to handle building that relationship with a customer to keep them coming back?

Dan Kaplan:

Yeah. I think you're so right that that's one of the biggest, you've got to, you you you have to adopt a a somewhat that the customer is always right, kind of point of view and that we will take and there are some customers aren't always right, but, they you know, when they have a problem, and and I just put myself in their shoe in the customer's shoes. So I think, if I got, you know, a piece of meat that I didn't like or there was a problem with it, what would I like from that store? What would I like from that business? What I'd like is for them to make it right.

Dan Kaplan:

Either give me a refund or, replace it. And, you just gotta find a way to get to that attitude. That is hard for a lot of business people and and farmers. You know? Like, sometimes it feels like the customer is kinda ripping you off, but you just gotta bite, you know, you just gotta do that.

Dan Kaplan:

And because otherwise yeah. You just gotta give them an amazing great experience. And, you know, we look at it as, you know, can we wow them? If we make a mistake, can we fix it so that they tell their neighbor? And then you know what they did?

Dan Kaplan:

They gave me they sent me a new box. Right? That's pre advertising in a way that we took care of them. So I think, getting ready for that kind of, approach to things. The customer is always right even when they're wrong.

Dan Kaplan:

And, I think just kinda like and and recognizing that it it's a different mindset, you know, going out and putting up fence or moving the cows or, you know, helping, cows who's having problem, calving. That it couldn't be, like, in some ways more different to be, you know, think about marketing. So if you can compartmentalize and say, you know, this afternoon from 2 to 4, I'm a marketer. Right? If the barn's burning out, I'll probably put that fire out.

Dan Kaplan:

But other than that, I'm gonna

Colt Knight:

Farming has really changed. Yeah. You know?

Dan Kaplan:

Especially if you wanna do direct to consumer. If you wanna just sell your beef to the bar you know, to the sale barn or or whatever, then just put them in the truck and trailer and and take them. But, you've gotta or maybe, you know, there's somebody on your in your family who wants to do the marketing piece of it. I've seen that a bunch.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

I think that's really valid because a lot of us enjoy being out with the livestock, and that's what we want to do. But we also have to take the time to carve out the marketing part and also the management. I mean, the old saying is you you you can't manage what you don't measure. And so I think here, you've also adopted you know, where you collect information from the farmer. You guys weigh livestock and look at performance.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

And

Dan Kaplan:

And we and we do, by the way, the same with our marketing, which is, you know, these days, the amount of data that you can get from how your website's doing, from the lifetime value of your customer, from where they live and what they buy, the the it's immense. Right? And, almost sometimes too much, but, you know, the analytics that you can find about what's working, what's not, you know, the thing I mentioned earlier about subscriptions that we only recently kind of, like, had that moment that our sub when people buy a subscription versus buying a la carte some steaks, that customer is worth so much more to us by 3 or 4 times. Alright? So that made us think we just need to be talking about subscriptions all the time.

Dan Kaplan:

That's gotta be our our main emphasis, Because, you know, the person who buys the customer bought consumer buys a stake or 2, they're not they're not really, committing. Right? They're like, yeah. Let's see if it's a good piece of meat or something. But we really want people to say, yeah.

Dan Kaplan:

I wanna choose to buy direct from the farmer, and that's not something you do once. You know? So, yeah.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

Yeah. No. No. I think that's right. And and subscriptions have really ramped up in the last, it seems like, 5 years for everything.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

Right? Even even your bigger online marketing platforms, you can put in there to check mark the box that it's gonna come as a subscription every month or something like that. So I think consumers are also becoming more acclimated

Dan Kaplan:

to that process. I mean, I get my dog food on a subscription. You know? It's, and, you know, they'll tell me, oh, it's gonna come next week. Is that the right time?

Dan Kaplan:

And I'm like, no. Give it another week, and it's a pretty easy, process. So I think you're right. People are used to the idea that, and and one of the things we do, our site is give people a lot of flexibility. You don't have to get the same thing each time.

Dan Kaplan:

You can change that around because, you know, maybe they want more steaks. Maybe they want more, you know, chicken breast this time or or something like that. So, again, that's a kind of thing of, like, just make it easy for the consumers. No any friction in the process is just like, you you know, I always think people are used to buying for Amazon. You click.

Dan Kaplan:

It comes. You know? It's always the thing you actually order. They don't really make mistakes. That's the experience consumers are having.

Dan Kaplan:

You have to replicate something on that order, because they're just not really interested in chasing you if you get it wrong or something like that. So

Colt Knight:

Dan, that's a great perspective, and we would love to sit here and talk to you all day. But I know you have work to do, and we have work to do. And we really appreciate you sitting down with us.

Dan Kaplan:

Glad to. I I hope more farmer I think it's a great way for farmers to, hopefully, make you know, get one of the best you know, farmers don't get a very big piece of the food dollar. And so what this is when you're direct to consumer is you kinda, like, eliminated a bunch of the middlemen that are taking some of that. You know, farmers deserve to make more money. So, hopefully, that's helpful.

Jeff Lehmkuhler:

So people wanted to learn more about, your farming operation, how could they find out more information?

Dan Kaplan:

Our website is heartstonefarm, all one word, dot com. It's heart like a beating heart, stonefarm.com. And, our if if you if, you know, if they had wanna ask questions or something, the phone number and the, there's contact form and stuff on the website, and that's, probably best.

Colt Knight:

Alright. Well, thank you, Dan. Thank you, Dan.