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What are pilots really seeing in our skies, and why aren't we talking about it?
The Safe Aerospace Podcast brings together military aviators, commercial pilots, air traffic controllers, aerospace professionals, and policymakers to tackle one of aviation's most pressing and least discussed challenges: UAP (unidentified aerial phenomena) in controlled airspace.
Hosted by Former F/A-18 pilot, Ryan Graves from Americans for Safe Aerospace, the podcast goes beyond the headlines to explore what UAP encounters mean for flight safety, national security, and the future of airspace transparency. Each episode features firsthand accounts from credentialed professionals, analysis of emerging policy developments, and conversations with the researchers and lawmakers working to bring scientific rigor and institutional accountability to a long-stigmatized issue.
I have a case of a 737 crew having a nose
and nose past 200ft with a black triangle.
This one had almost like a glowing
like orange
golden plasma field on the bottom,
as if almost.
It was like reentering,
you know, from space.
Numerous commercial pilots
have had very close near-misses
with black triangles
in the past 8 or 10 years.
But we're all in this together
to try to successfully pursue the unknown.
We that's the assignment is to continue
to explore that space, maintaining an open
mind of what could be, maybe
while also a reservation of judgment.
And the focus
was not on little green men, or
like future humans, or just the
US military or something like that.
We weren't there two point fingers
it was to figure out what it is. I
can't make sense of it yet, but all I know
is something remarkable is happening.
Welcome to the Safe Aerospace podcast.
My name is Ryan Graves.
Today I'm joined by Jonathan Miller,
who goes by Jamil.
He's been helping us out at Americans
for Safe Aerospace.
For what, about maybe a year and a half
now or so?
Yeah.
He's been doing some really good work
on the UAP
topic at MIT in his professional life.
And we're going to talk about that.
We're going to talk about
what he's been doing to help Eisa out,
specifically in the organization.
And then we're going to swap roles.
Jameel is going to ask me some questions,
and we're going to get into a conversation
about
what's been happening at ASU
over the past, gosh,
three years now since the hearing,
what we're building
and how we're doing it
and how you can help.
So I think this would be
a good opportunity
to kind of catch everyone up
to what we've been doing and show you guys
why we're so excited
about what we're doing.
Thanks for coming down the awesome Jameel.
Thanks so much. Yeah.
Why don't we kick it off with just
a little background about yourself?
And in addition to,
of course, your credentials
and your professional background,
what brought you into a as well?
Sure. Well, it's it's an honor to be here.
And it's super exciting to be able to
to help kick off
Americans for Safe Aerospace podcast.
It's a fascinating organization,
and we've been really growing
under your leadership.
It's been a magnet for a lot of us.
And and in my particular story,
I had reached out to you some time ago
about saying, okay, I've got
multiple sort of skills and interests
and how might I be able to help.
And we were able to to get where
developing
what we'll talk about later
on like a membership program,
a lot of technical work at Cetera
to help the exploration of unidentified
anomalous phenomena from my professional
and personal interests.
Certainly interested in the field
of what we now call UAP
sort of adjacent, kind of mysterious
and almost areas for a long time.
But I've been working
as a program engineer at MIT,
and as well as doing
substantial work in the space
of like sort of defense technologies and
investment in what I would call science
advantaged kinds of companies,
because to me, that's the best way
that we're able to take what we would call
yesterday as science fiction to today
start to make it as science fact.
It takes that that that combination
of science and engineering, business
and art and everything to be able to,
to to live in this amazing world
where we have something.
Here's my prop, you know, that's
that's made of basically like kind of,
you know, rocks and minerals and stuff
like that and turn it into something
that is a smartphone that we don't even
have to think about how it works.
I can really
I can really resonate with that.
I mean, that's why I wanted to go fly
fighter aircraft, right?
You guys were taking ideas in the science
fiction realm and turning them
into a reality in the defense arena, but
I was the one that was right on that edge
that got to operate those tools,
and that's where I wanted to be.
That's kind of what set me on this path,
of course, but please continue.
Oh, it's we are certainly always
surrounded by nowadays
in the modern world, at least
a substantial amounts of new technologies.
And it's like, well, you know,
build a technology for technology sake.
But really to me, it's been so much about,
well, what are the problems?
Or more like the grand challenges
that we may be able to solve.
And along the way of sort
of confronting the unknown.
There's some
sort of happy accidents of discoveries
like penicillin or something that
that may actually really be super useful.
We didn't know going forward
exactly what the path should be.
That's the part of the discovery.
And so that's led to creation of various
courses, the one that's most, most topical
being confronting unknowns at MIT,
which we had we conducted in January.
And you were certainly a key part of that.
I happen to have as a property
the poster for for that program.
So and just just so this is you
what what would your title be at MIT
when you're teaching?
What's the precise entitle?
Well, so I'm a lecturer or instructor
or a program
director
for something like Confronting Unknowns.
Here's the the problem.
This is a slightly crinkled,
well-traveled poster from
from that program that we put together
with the spirit being sensemaking.
How do we do that?
That, to me is a a teachable skill.
And it's you know, since making broadly
and then we start to narrow
scope on to aerospace as a very critical
kind of like industry or sector,
and then even,
you know, even use that as the way
to sort of explore then UAP.
And so it's, you know, how do we get
better at recognizing that we don't know.
So this was
this was a three day, two day course.
Yeah.
And so who attended this?
What was kind of the syllabus?
What did you guys talk about?
So it was a multi-day
sort of intensive workshop, if you will.
And and the focus was, was not on
especially not on
is it little green men
or like future humans or just the U.S.
military or something like that?
We weren't there to point fingers.
Fingers.
It was to build up the the sort of
the intuition and instincts around
how do various experts in their fields
and domains make sense.
And so we had speakers and cohort members
who are representing
not only fine
research institutions like MIT,
but also folks from the intelligence
community or, say, program directors
from big aerospace companies
and all walks of life in between there.
And how do those individuals in technical,
non-technical, misinformation,
disinformation roles, how
to all of those folks try to make sense
in their particular fields
and through that learning that
and that shared sort of vocabulary
development, then we, you know,
the hypothesis, we may then all be able
to make more sense of UAP
as a big constellation
of multiple sort of challenges.
Was there was there an outcome from this
that you're you're targeting what's really
what's next for this?
Of course it's it's,
you know, the story is being written.
And so part of that story
is the imminent release,
when this episode will air,
will be near the publication of a paper
that's resulted
and been sort of collaboratively author by
probably nearly about half of the cohort
members who who stayed on, volunteered
a lot of time in research to be able
to produce the Confronting Unknowns paper.
And so that will be likely
the first of a series.
There's so many different rabbit holes
to be, to be threaded
to pull from legislation
and policy development to, of course,
new forms of sensors and
and how might frontier
artificial intelligence models
and other things be useful to to apply to
this sort of like weak but very critical
kind of signal that the UAP tends to have.
So, you know, for
if folks are interested, there's
running a pleasantly infrequent
mailing list at, at sensemaking W.T.
f that is the website. Website.
No, no. Just sense making TF.
Yeah. Very cool. Awesome. Yeah.
Recommend checking that out and hopefully
we'll see a another course next year.
I was hoping to attend a person this year.
However there is a massive Texas to
to Boston snowstorm
which dumped bought like 12in of snow
in Boston that day.
So if if maybe maybe three x
that in some spots I think.
So if you're willing the brave
brave the winter
at least I would look forward
to being there next year.
Just paying that course.
I mean, it's something
I spend so much time thinking
about on this problem, right?
It's it's somewhat trivial.
I think if you have a well-defined
requirement or problem
space and detection profile for something.
Right.
You know, it's easy enough, I suppose,
to send some spies in and monitor,
you know, Russian MiG development and
then build a model for how to detect that.
But when you have something
that is not fitting what you're expecting
or is very low signal or non-repeating,
then you have to look for the signal
in the noise.
And that's really the opposite of the way
that we typically do signal analysis,
finding those spar sporadic ones that
you don't have a large training set on.
And it's actually a unique
area of of machine learning to study
some of these low signal model generation
capabilities.
But, you know, you solve that two ways
with cleverer models or with more data,
right.
And so, you know, you can work on both
ends of those streams to get answers.
And one thing
I don't think we're going to be in short
supply of in
the future is different data sets.
One often refrain
I hear in the startup community
here in Austin and elsewhere,
you know, it's how can you
how can you generate a new unique data
set that you have some mode around?
Right.
So if you happen to have a lot of video
and data systems
that happen to have been inside
of tornadoes, right,
that maybe
didn't have a very large market,
but that's a very unique data
set that AI models could ingest.
It just has been you know,
we haven't had the tools necessary
to understand those large data sets.
So there's a lot of really unique
data plays going on
in the startup community to be able
to generate those very large data sets.
And I think that provides
a unique opportunity for the UAP space
where these companies
could potentially collaborate
with the up space
in order to make certain areas
of their data sets available
or expose for testing
with relationships in place,
of course, to ensure that no data is being
leaked, that would be inappropriate,
but I think there's a lot of potential
from that, and that doesn't
even count, of course, building
specific systems for this.
Very cool.
Yeah, I agree on that.
I do, because, you know, one of the hats
I wear, it's kind of a complementary
kind of hat to the day job is, is I'm
a doctor of engineering student
at Penn State and, and Penn State.
I found to be a very receptive community
to some of the research work that we're
that we're putting together
of which part of that is,
is sort of sense making and in this case,
human machine teaming to with the focus
being on on anomaly detection
and said that that weak signal,
particularly in fields and domains
where you get it
wrong, it's a it's a bad situation. Right.
So there's really sort of poignant,
kind of situations.
And so from not only technical names,
as you've discussed,
and I think there's a lot we could, you
know, could pull the thread on for that.
But but also in the way
that, say, information is generated
or consumed and information warfare
where it's where it is
used by everybody in various ways
and manipulated,
even ways of being able to say,
how might we measure that from,
you know, live open source intelligence
kind of kind of means and use that
to help us not necessarily figure out
the answer, but to recognize that, well,
there's a big like, information vacuum
that's forming,
and that puts our kind of guard hairs up
so that then that will help us
as sense, in my opinion,
that helps us as sense makers to deploy
the art of sense making,
which is a little bit more like gut based.
And we might be able to get better
at helping make decisions at machine speed
if we can get some of our tooling
and infrastructure better to
to also be measuring live system, live,
live occurrences like that.
So, you know, speaking of sense making,
we didn't bring it up yet.
Maybe we should have.
But today's kind of a special day.
The government Department of War,
specifically,
I think, in conjunction with the FBI
and NASA, have started to release
previously classified UAP
videos and sensor captures and documents.
Some are historical,
some of them are more modern.
As part of President Trump's
promise to, quote unquote,
declassify everything in this space
just to kind of set the stage.
And by the time this airs,
this will probably be old news,
but I understand that this information
will likely come in.
This is the first one.
And to expect the
the second within 30 days,
there's indications that things
will get progressively more interesting.
I'll say, for those that haven't checked
the website out, and I'm sure you will
by the time this airs, you know, it's it's
a lot of files, a lot of information.
This is just the beginning.
When we think about sense making,
if the government is going to continue
on this path to release,
at least right now,
ambiguous data and perhaps less ambiguous
data in the future.
What are your thoughts on on sense
making now?
Should should we invest in understanding
what's happening now?
Should we sit back and just kind of wait
to see how these progress?
It's an interesting time.
We're getting flooded with new data
that's ambiguous,
and I wonder how you think about that.
Yes, it's
certainly I think the, the dual of
of maintaining an open
mind of what could be maybe while
also a reservation of judgment,
but being able to recognize that, okay,
there are still more grainy and grayscale
than than most of us would prefer
in this sort of like 4K world
that we live in,
but that we have more tangible evidence
and sometimes corroboration to, to to say,
you know what
some of these stories that are,
I would the more recent kind of things
like a 2023 kind of report over,
you know, if we saw solve
or get more information on like a 1960
something event,
I think the public in general
is going to be like, okay,
I mean, that's nice, but
but if it's something more recent,
for example, with the, the new Jersey
sort of drone incidences
or flap circa 2024
with echoes in that region
and other other regions more recently,
that's more useful because we know
there are still people alive
that are directly,
you know, in near adjacent kind of jobs
that have those kind of experiences.
And it's just a that's something
that with these kind of hopefully
multiple data tranches,
it's listed as release zero one.
So we're hopeful that that will enumerate
into hopefully double digits.
Let's simplify this
for the the average person
that's starting to see this flood out.
You know, you're in this position
where maybe you've been on the fence.
Yeah. There's
been some people that came forward.
They seem credible.
But you went back to your business
and now this is happening.
You know, I think a lot of people
are going to have more confusion
in the short term than certainty on this,
especially as they kind of start
to dip their toe into this conversation
early on.
Do you have any advice
for those types of those types of people?
Well, the one is is
I aspire and my collaborators fire
that that the paper that confronting
unknowns paper that we're releasing its
it will be free and open source
that will help provide a combination of
I as you know average Joe would be it's
okay to be interested
in this the stigma, the stigma.
Because that era
seems to be having turned a leaf
and you've experienced,
you know, multiple eras in UAP land.
And so now, particularly for Americans
for safe aerospace orientation,
which is there's now
more protocol and procedure that's
less hush hush
from the FAA and other organizations.
And so for the average Joe, it's yes,
still go, you know,
still invest in your for luck.
If you can go get the groceries,
take care of the kids.
It's not like Chicken Little.
The sky is falling.
But if you have an interest
and potentially even if you have skills,
there are becoming more venues
to to use that
and potentially more funding
in other ways of being resources.
And so that the stigma aspect
is very important
to recognize that we are not alone
as, as people.
In terms of collaborations
with other from research institutions
to large companies, small companies,
foundations that have expressed interest
to to us privately and publicly that
these are areas that need to be explored
and more content
coming from the Defense Department
or from our own sort of internal database
that we that we continue
to publish and share,
that helps the noise environment
to have more credible signal in there.
So if we can get that ratio of signal
to noise higher,
I think it helps all of us
make a little more sense that okay.
Yeah, maybe it's it's not it's not taboo.
It's certainly not a lot of people of
who are not discounting this.
They're taking things extremely seriously.
We know.
It's incredible
how much that has changed. I mean,
every day I'm still surprised.
But, you know, I often have to
I feel like I need to enter
certain conversations,
almost apologetically,
that I'm now broaching the conversation
of UAP with them, but often surprised
to see that they're eager to engage
in that conversation.
So, yeah, things certainly have changed.
So yes, you know,
if you're
if you're just listening this now
and if you have not seen it,
the internet's really blowing up today
with all,
all the different content videos,
you know.
And now it's it's in the zoo. Right.
So now there's going to be all sorts of,
you know, armchair analysis
that's going to go on.
Information
space is going to get pretty messy.
I'm confident
that things will continue to progress.
More data will come forward
that will increase the clarity.
But even if the, you know,
the president were to get on on stage
behind a podium and make some type
of definitive declaration,
the mission that American Safe
Aerospace doesn't, doesn't change
or stop at that point, right.
The relevance of ensuring
that we avoid mishaps and that we secure
our borders and our airspace from unknown
intrusions is still relevant.
It's just now that we've better identify
what's causing the risk to grow right now.
So maybe this is a good time to maybe turn
turn the tables a little bit and talk
a little bit about, you know, what ASA
has been up to over the past few years.
I'll try not to bore you guys too much,
because I think the exciting stuff is,
you know, what's to come,
especially with with new data
coming in and new people being excited
to help us figure this out.
So we'll maybe take a quick break
and then we'll switch back up to that.
Sure thing.
So welcome back for the Safe
Aerospace Podcast.
Before we jump into sort of the world
of Ryan Graves and American heroes
space from, say, the 2023 hearings
that were seminal for
for the field or, you know, the challenge
area up to to present.
I want to Ryan, I want to give you
a little a little special gift.
I happen to run a podcast called
Tuff Tech today, and I wanted to present
with you, stickers of our special
anvil
that's being lifted by by balloons in.
It's our special symbol about,
something
I think is super important in this field
is is optimism and willingness
to to kind of think about
what could be and how they think I can
of like Thomas the tank of that.
Sometimes it can feel lonely.
Sometimes it can feel like you have allies
and sometimes in the same day.
But we're all in this together
to try to successfully pursue the unknown.
It's not like we sell
the unknown, it's we.
That's the assignment
is to continue to explore that space.
And yeah. So thank you.
So let's get folks back into your story.
Most most listeners
I suspect, know your story.
But for someone who may be new today
and to help sort of anchor
the first episode of the podcast,
walk us through it, let's say
maybe some of the 2014
kind of experiences circling active duty
and then into what
led to a seminal hearing.
Yeah, you know,
I won't go into too much detail.
I know people have probably heard
my story before, but I was in F-18
pile of the Navy,
and we had just come back
from our first deployment off the coast
of Virginia Beach while we were deployed
to the Middle East,
but we came back to our base
off the coast of Virginia Beach
and began upgrading our radars.
And that's when we gain detecting.
And we didn't know at the time,
but potentially UAP, UAP
that were exhibiting flight
characteristics that we wouldn't expect,
very fast beads, very sharp turns,
remaining fleet stationary.
And this was happening every day,
but no one was reporting it.
There was a stigma
about what it could have been.
No one wanted to talk about it.
And so even though they were near-misses,
these things
coming within 50ft of our cockpit,
people weren't reporting it.
And, you know, that struck a nerve with me
because as tactical aviators
were such a tension, the detail, you know,
not just how we're going to drop a bomb
or land on the aircraft carrier,
but all of the things
that enable that to happen
the safety precautions, the briefings,
the administrative tasks to get the jet
ready in that position, all those things
matter just as much as as that
last pickle press to drop the weapon.
Right.
And so to ignore this one
particular avenue that was so critical
a mishap, an air to mid-air risk,
then it makes sense to me.
And I didn't know why we weren't
willing to talk about that.
But, you know, in that community, it's
very, you know, it's very competitive.
People want to be the best.
And this, at the end of the day, is a side
quest and not really why we're there.
So I understand why
people didn't prioritize it.
But ultimately this kept happening
for a number of years.
More near misses and culminating in us
capturing some video off the coast of
Jacksonville, Florida that were released
in the New York Times in 2017.
And when I saw that, I realized
that the issues that we were having on
the East Coast were isolated
and they weren't getting resolved.
And that's what led me to reach out
and start speaking out,
at least privately at first,
in order to help them understand
that this was a larger issue
than just 1 or 2 incidences.
And of course, that accelerated.
I went public on it
and did a few interviews,
which snowballed a bit and landed me
ultimately on a Congress in 2023
where I testified
not only to what we were seeing ourselves,
the pilots in our squadron,
but also by that time,
all the hundreds of reports
now thousands that
we've received at Americans for Safe
Aerospace, other pilots,
both in the military
and commercial center, operators,
regular soldiers,
civilians everywhere in between.
You know,
they're all having these experiences.
Of course,
some of those witnesses are more valuable
because they have a high likelihood
of coming with sensor data,
someone that just sees something
in their backyard or soldier
on the ground with no sensors,
that sees something, provides some useful
information and aggregate,
and we can start to see some trends.
So it's all valuable and it's all wasted
if we're not collecting that
and losing the opportunity
that each one of those provides
us to better understand the situation.
And so at the hearing, it was really,
you know, I felt my responsibility
to share and make clear
that this was a widespread issue.
This was something that was affecting
all, all levels of aviation
and that it represented
not only that aviation safety risk,
but also a national security
risk of having objects operating
over our continental United States
and our airspace that are unattributed,
whether it's exhibiting advanced
capabilities or not, that, at a minimum,
is a potential air
traffic threat for aviators and at worst,
it's intelligence, surveillance
and reconnaissance or potentially
a weaponized drone, as we've seen to be
so effective in Ukraine and elsewhere.
So the answer of ultimately what they are
in some ways, to me is irrelevant.
It's more about mitigating the risk,
you know, that they oppose.
And so that's why
I wanted to speak out about it.
Now, I've learned such,
you know, information from the reports
that we receive that,
you know, my thinking has matured.
I'll say my model has updated,
and unfortunately, it's updated towards
less certainty in any one answer,
but a very big signal, if you will,
that there's something that is exhibiting
capabilities beyond the state of the art.
Maybe that's the easy answer of it
being aliens from another star system.
Maybe that's a more complex answer.
Maybe it's something
we're not thinking of yet, but
I believe the only way forward
in that conversation
is through the work that we're building
towards Americans for Safe Aerospace,
both from a technical standpoint
as well as reducing the stigma.
Some of the big steps we took immediately
following that hearing were to advise
Congress on legislation
that would protect pilots,
that would enable them to report
without fear of retribution
from their employees,
from their management at the airlines.
Any pilots are reprimanded for speaking
about this, either directly or indirectly.
And so there's there's zero incentive.
And pilots often tell me like, hey,
I'm getting out in three years,
I'm retiring in five years.
I'll talk to you then.
I have been doing this
long enough that they have.
But but I wish they could have talked
to me sooner or felt more comfortable.
And the legislation that we've ised
on the Safe Airspace for Americans Act
would classify these
as established aviation safety risk,
which would then protect pilots
under existing workplace protection laws.
So it's such that their employer
can't forbid them
from communicating safety hazards
in their workplace.
And so it uses existing frameworks
in order to enable that.
It was introduced in 2024.
It was not voted
on. It couldn't get attached.
It has been reintroduced.
And we are working to have that included
potentially
in the 2027 NDAA.
But perhaps more exciting,
and this is maybe catching us up
a little bit more modern times.
There's been a lot going on
at the state level.
There has been energy,
starting with new Jersey in passing
pretty substantive UAP legislation
in new Jersey.
They did provide a budget amount of money
in order to perform a research program
research study.
In conjunction
with the public organization Vermont has
is exploring their own legislation
that would standardize
collection across the state
for analysis and eventual reporting.
Connecticut Is has also proposed
their own legislation
that's going back and forth again
with the budget for research there.
About seven
other states that I'm aware of that are
on legislation right now.
This could be a very strong trend.
This might provide
the institutional framework
for there to be a standardized
reporting system.
And, you know,
people might say, why does this, you know,
why does this matter at the state level?
Is it because it's too hard
at the federal level, maybe a little bit.
You know, it is a mess and hard to get
legislation through at the federal level.
But there's also things
that can be addressed at the state level.
That is not right
at the federal level. Right.
So what about state police?
What about local police?
What about state
critical infrastructure? Right.
How do these groups talk and mitigate
this?
It's not just detecting. Right.
What do you do after you've detected?
How do you respond to that.
Because if it is a threat,
we need to actually respond to it
and not just catalog it for a report
that comes out, you know, in 24 months.
Right?
So there.
There needs to be a closed loop system
for this.
And by having these states
start to implement this,
I think we can start
looking towards a future where we have
an interstate agreement
for how to collaborate, both
from a data collection
and dating data sharing perspective.
That's something that in some of my work
and my colleagues is sort of exposed.
Is that the institutional level
this could be at,
could be state or even federal
is that there's there's the vocabulary for
we know what something is and there's
a vocabulary for there is no threat.
But apparently there's a
lack of
institutional vocabulary
in the middle of that.
And so
and that if that without that vocabulary,
it causes something that may not look like
it's, it may be flying in somewhere
where it's not supposed to be, but there's
no visible weapon payload or something.
So it's like, well, what is that?
And that lack of vocabulary causes a
lack of the cascades
that would help to get some sort of like
an integrated communication system
so that there are ways to help fill
the emergent information vacuum,
which could lead to massive stereo
or could lead to,
you know, people shooting at things that
they probably shouldn't be shooting at.
And so that's where I think
it's a proud Pennsylvanian
that the Commonwealth
I know that there's there's
additional work
being there, as well as one of those.
I think that the seven other states that
you had mentioned in international work
as well, to, to try to get legislation
is always a little lagging,
but try to get it sort of cut up
to some sort of modern time, because,
again, you've gone through the eras of
when it was
not something one talked about, of that
there are unknown objects,
and even saying, I don't know
is a very hard thing for anybody to say.
And then now where it's, it's seemed like
we've turned a curve here.
And Americans perceive aerospace
being a view.
It maybe a little biased, but like one of
the most trusted kind of organizations,
particularly for free aviators.
And then so the ecosystem around him
or her
to be able to say, I did see something,
I don't know what it is.
And yes, I'm concerned about my job,
but we now have more protections in place
for that to for that data to go in.
Yeah.
And you know, we've, we've continued
to receive a lot of reports at ASA. And
you know,
we've had to take kind of an intelligence
mindset around, if you will, confidence
level corroboration
low on scientifically validated
measurements or calculations, right
when it holds up in a lab.
But you can make decisions off of it.
Type information.
And, you know, we've worked that
I think to good effect and
really identified a lot of really strong,
you know, cases and people
that were excited to bring forward
on this podcast here in the near future.
But, you know, we have a thousand report.
What's that really mean?
You know, as it's fleshed out now,
I would say probably
at this stage, probably about 80 of those
or so, maybe a little bit more
or what we consider, you know,
very high quality cases similar to,
you know, an example,
a comparable example might be the TikTok
incident with Commander Frazier,
where there are multiple,
highly trained observers
that have corroborating sense of data
that they either saw
or might potentially still exist.
We have dozens of those.
Right.
And over the past several years
since the hearing, we've collected
and collated and studied
some of these cases, and we've shared
those cases with congressional members
and the House
and the Senate, different committees
with federal law enforcement and the FBI.
And we only share
this type of information
explicitly with the witnesses permission.
And so when you come to Assa
and you say your information
and we schedule a call, we talk,
we make it very clear
that if you would like, the option exists
for this information
to be processed, forwarded through
to some of these other stakeholders.
If if they give their permission.
And, you know, the vast majority of people
do take us up on on that offer,
because I think for maybe the first time
on this conversation,
people feel like the time is right,
like action can actually be taken.
This information matters
and there's people waiting for it.
And it's true. People are.
And just today, I think we're starting
to see the outcropping
of some of that
with the releases that came out.
But ultimately, as effective
as that's been to motivate
a lot of the efforts that we are hearing
or perhaps you're not hearing about yet
across various agencies, in the executive
branch and elsewhere,
we haven't necessarily
shared those cases with the public,
and they're also not of a scientific
quality that would allow us to do
real, rigorous study on it.
And so,
you know that as weakness, we've started
to design a much more comprehensive,
scientifically structured
methodology, both for collecting
and supplementing additional information
to to the reports as available
and then analyzing
the outcroppings of that, both in whole
and on a case by case basis.
And that work is not public yet.
We will be offering that
to the members of our website.
I'm pretty excited about it.
It's going to allow you
to have a complete picture
of the when and the where of the reports.
Anyone report will be supplemented
with basically
any publicly available information that's
possible to scrape from the internet,
test data, satellite data, air
traffic data, and allow us to more
or less quantify
whether this is likely a prosaic sighting,
or whether this doesn't
have an explanation
that we can assign to it right now.
Allow us to kind of rack and stack
and have what I think
is probably the first time a single place
where you could have confidence
in the publicly reviewable logic train
that provided, you know,
the ranked assessment of one report.
So when you look at it,
you could say, okay, this is anomalous.
Here's the ranking and here's why.
Through all the supplementation
and reasoning that
went behind that for any one report
and make that live.
So as new information comes in, as new
analysis is done, that can be updated.
And, you know, my hope with that
is that now there's a place where people
can actually focus their energy
on the actual mystery and the good cases
versus spending their time
sweating over something that was debunked,
you know, 15 years ago,
but is being resurfaced on X right now.
And, you know, we're going to be able
to use that as a source
for justification for policy positions
that we might want to take.
That will be evidence
that will continue to drive
the conversation forward in DC
and in academia and elsewhere.
And ultimately,
we'll be sharing all that information
with their members at Safe Aerospace.
Org, so that them and the media
and anyone else can utilize that to
to better understand it.
So that's that's the vision.
Now, you know,
what's the reality right now
we're actually make
a pretty good progress.
It's our hope
to have a first version of this
that we're going to be demoing
at the end of July.
ASA is going to Oshkosh at Ryan.
Better than I didn't plan that.
But yeah, they expected.
For those not familiar.
Oshkosh is the world's
largest aircraft flying kind of like a,
kind of like the Olympics of airshows,
perhaps is one way or I don't know.
How would you describe it?
Maybe.
It's certainly a marathon,
whether as a, as a, as a participant,
a audience member, or
if one's
actually flying in, its the world's
busiest airport for,
for the span of that one week or so.
And it's very loud, it's very fun.
It's to as Oshkosh, the shorthand
and its location, but it's the EAA.
So Experimental Aircraft Association's air
venture program or endeavor.
And that is
is something that if you could be there.
We this will be the first time
that AZA has has a booth
and has a formal presence there.
Many members,
as sort of aviation enthusiasts
have been there and sort of skunkworks
or grassroots kind of way,
but it's going to be something
that for folks who can participate, it's
we we intend to have a,
you know, a look at some of the,
the this kind of mapping
and, and report sort of pipelining
that we've been building.
And this may be a little plug for,
for membership is, is that we
super push it if you like and subscribe.
That really helps with with the attention
that we know the subject needs
a sort of credible, grounded,
bad, aviation fun but grounded kind of
way of looking at this, these challenges.
But then membership is a way
to help support the building
out of this kind of infrastructure
that we need to be able to get
from a report in the door
or in the database to
then not just sit there, but
to be kind of like to use mining examples,
like the beneficiation process to go from
raw or to, you know, where are the gems.
Actual data?
Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's something
that's been missing in
at least in the open source
kind of way for seemingly ever,
or least in the past 70 years or so.
And so, it's not like,
you know, pushing for disclosure per se.
It's pushing for, well,
it's like explore and sort of and make it
so that folks who if you do see something,
you do have a way to be able to
to share that so
you don't feel alone or something, right?
For me at least, it's
like I don't want someone to be scared
and in a corner without reading that,
you know,
there are allies out here
that are really trying to be,
that are being very serious
and or who are trustworthy to earn that.
Well, yeah.
So if you are at Oshkosh
or want to come now, look forward
to seeing you at our booth.
I'm thinking the best way to share that.
But we, you know, please go to Safe
Aerospace.
Org. We'll have a news article
about how you can find us there.
What events will be doing.
We'll have we'll be having event
at a local distillery,
which I'm sure will be a lot of fun,
and we can have some fun conversations.
And of course, we'll be talking
to a lot of pilots.
There were 750,000 people at Oshkosh
last year.
They'll probably be more this year.
And I suspect that there are a lot of UAP
stories between
the aviators there in the crowd,
and we're going to be there,
and hopefully we're going to capture
some on camera
and share them with you
and add them to our database here.
Yeah, it'll be epic.
It's a lot of people.
It's a lot of hardware
and it's a lot of fun.
Let's hope the Wisconsin weather gods
don't turn it into a slosh
like it has been in sometimes in the past
and some other other,
but it's going to be. It'll be great.
So excited to to see you in many of you
listeners and viewers there.
Well yeah.
So the you know we're going to demo
hopefully this system there.
You'll be able to come by and check it out
will be accepting report.
And now that will give us
this scientifically structured process
that's traceable,
that we can truly understand the reasoning
across the whole pipeline of data
and do real time,
you know, signal analysis for,
for lack of a better word, right, like
just really be able to update the data
in real time, share the outputs of that
with our members, share that with
the different stakeholders in the space.
Share that with the pilot unions
and the commercial airlines
that the where of the risks
that pilots are exposed to now,
because it is significant.
We receive a lot of reports,
and the government itself receives more
reports through the standardized procedure
that now exists.
When a pilot sees a report, the expected
behavior is that they will report that
to air traffic control.
Air traffic control assesses that.
And then there is a standardized
reporting form that the manager of
that facility
is expected to fill out and submit.
That goes to various places.
I understand that that is being utilized
to some degree, and that there are
a number of just say,
I'll just leave it out there, single digit
number of these events per day
in the United States
where commercial pilots are,
are reporting this through that mechanism.
So this is something
that's still extremely relevant.
And we need to make sure that the airlines
and the pilots
that are oblivious to this right now
have access to that information
so that they can make safe decisions
with their aircraft. Right.
That's what at the end day all about.
And so that database
is going to be really effective.
You guys are watching the podcast now.
Obviously that's something else
that we've been working on.
We've been collecting all these
all these reports, all these stories from,
you know, again, very credible people.
And those reports have had an incredible
effect shifting the conversation in DC.
And it's like, hey, let's now's the time.
Let's, let's share
those, you know, with the public.
And so that's,
that's exactly what we're doing.
This is a bit of a warm up, you know,
catch everyone up, reintroduce ourselves,
let you stand what we've been doing.
But we're going to be getting right
into pilots,
air traffic controllers or sightings.
And not just that, we've also partnered
with an organization
away to drop their name until everything's
all signed, but we're going to be
creating short animated
videos of the cases themselves, right?
So you don't just have to listen to them
describe it.
The guests,
the witness, will have had a hand
in creating those short videos,
so you'll kind of get to see it
from their perspective,
and then you'll get to listen
to the guest for our members,
if you sign up at Safe Aerospace.
Org and join our membership program,
you can receive those interviews early.
They'll also be invited to join the guests
after the interview for and ask me
anything where they can get in there
after they've listened to the case.
And of course,
probably have a million questions
and make sure they have the opportunity
to get in there
and ask those questions with the witness.
So, you know,
why is that important? Right?
You know, a lot of people have podcast,
but it's much bigger than a podcast.
You know,
these stories are really important
and they will change minds
and people's perspective.
And they're not doing any good
either on the shelf
or in an analyst spreadsheet
in the government somewhere.
And so we want to share them.
We want to demonstrate the people
how to actually have a rational,
reasonable conversation
about these experiences,
build that corpus of knowledge.
And when we do that, you know,
we've learned that at Safe Aerospace
that more people report,
we talk about a pilot with a commercial,
a case with a commercial pilot,
and we'll have other commercial pilots
decide to reach out after hearing that
or someone that seen something similar.
And so the hope and here's looking at you,
you know,
if you have seen something, report it.
Go to safe aerospace dog slash reports.
Submit your report.
We'll assess it.
We'll reach out to you, get more details
and debrief with you and provide you
the same options we've provided others
about potentially submitting these reports
to some of these other stakeholders.
If you prefer to keep that private,
that's completely fine.
Maybe have you on the podcast
to discuss your case publicly.
And so, you know,
now we have both this distribution
platform to share these cases
and also a more sophisticated system
to accept these reports
and understand them.
And that's going to give us this
this loop that I think
is really going to run away and provide
not just us, a better understanding,
but everyone else,
because we're going to be riding
along with you on this.
The two things there
that I want to point out is for
for audience members about like Ryan's
saying, you know, report it.
And someone may be like, well, but
but what, you know, information security,
like how,
you know, will my name be attached to this
if you're not ready for that?
And so something just to, to, to reinforce
is that the behind the scenes work
which we will have, you know,
sort of future guests and talks of various
members from, from the ASA community
that will drive this deeper.
But we're achieving what I might say,
like a level of compliance in many ways to
at the for the database
to be able to ensure that the reporter
or report person, the submitter and his
or any identifying information
they choose to share that that
that there's ways to be protecting that
and decoupling it from the report itself
so that if you're submitting something,
you're not going to be seeing it
like on The New York Times and,
you know, tomorrow
kind of thing with your name
attached to that.
It's that's not that's not how we roll.
And we also we also.
Have a separate field
where location. Right.
You tell us you saw it at your house
and give us your address that doesn't
go into a final report or like be dropping
your, you know, exact home.
All of that is coursed out
so that there's an uncertainty
in the reporting locations such that,
you know, no individual witnesses
giving away any personal information.
So yeah, thanks.
Thanks for for raising that issue.
Would it be?
I think it would be maybe interesting
because we've touched on
some of the of where ASA is,
and we're a lot more to go into on that.
But and also a little bit of the vision
of where it's
going in the shorter and longer term
with what we're building.
But could you take us
and give us a look at what you think, ace?
Like, say, when you founded
the organization, what you thought
Asa would be and a little bit of that
the delta of now what what it is today.
Yeah.
You know, when we started the organization
originally we weren't
really receiving that many reports.
And so the idea of starting the 501 C
three nonprofit was to really just have
the same organizational tools that
anyone else operating in DC could use,
have a have a platform
to share the public messaging
with the public
in order to reduce the stigma,
just produce maybe some small thought
pieces on the recommendations
we had for moving forward.
That would be productive.
But once we started receiving
so many reports
that had useful information
attached to it, that turned this
into understanding things from the scope
of my experience to having a broader
understanding of this widespread problem
that wasn't just a Navy fighter
pilot problem or a US problem,
but a global concern.
And so that really,
you know, informed our,
our solution space of of where we could go
and what would be useful.
You know, we talked with so many pilots,
both individually from their reports
as well as organizations and unions,
and there was still a lot of discomfort
around talking about this.
And so, you know, ultimately, over time,
having this large corpus of information
that was mind changing, right?
It would change people's mind to hear this
many credible reports.
How do we leverage that?
How do we expand that,
and how do we put the technical
rigor behind it such that the information
isn't just doesn't just feel good,
but is something that can be studied
in a formalized way that allows us
to progress along a path of increasing
knowledge versus just, you know, kind of
jumping from one question to another.
Right.
And, you know,
I think what we've put together
on the database side and are continuing to
do so is a huge step in that.
And I think, you know, frankly,
the timing couldn't be better.
As I said, I don't think
this conversation, you know, ASA
doesn't just go away
if just quote unquote disclosure happens,
you know, in a week or something,
the same problems will exist,
the same need for risk
mitigation will exist.
So we need to plan for the future,
you know, five, eight years from now,
not necessarily trying to plan in 6
or 12 month increments.
And I think, you know, it's bigger
than just
the reports that we receive
and our analysis of it.
What other tools
can we bring into the conversation
to supplement those report
or to generate new reports?
And you know, what I'm talking about here
is real time sensor
detections in American aerospace,
I think, need to move towards a modality
where the were receiving
the most current information possible.
And I think that we do that through
a sensor network across the United States.
Now that sounds ambitious.
There are there's something called
the price performance curve.
Right.
The performance gets better.
The cost goes up.
As the cost goes down,
the performance is less good.
What is the minimally viable spot
on the the that curve
that enables us to get low quality
sensor kits to individuals
such that
they can put them in their backyard
and grow a network
organically on that side.
What are the other stops up
that cost performance curve
that allow us to have more exquisite
detection capabilities
and analytical capabilities that you can't
get at those cheaper ranges,
but perhaps you can't deploy
as many of them, right?
What does that configuration look like?
What's optimal
and what is needed to actually add value
and understanding into this conversation
in that scientifically structured way?
And, you know, the database
that we're designing and building out
will have that interface, maybe
not on day zero, but shortly afterwards
where we'll be able
to, starting with limited modalities,
be able to ingest sensor data from kits
that we've been designing
and as well as look to the rest of the
the UAP
science and engineering community
to see if they would like to
integrate their sensors into those
into that backbone as well, creating a
a centralized analytical engine
that will be able to both ingest
a witness data, publicly available data
and hardware based real time data
and turn it all into a single fuzed
picture of what's happening in the sky.
And that's, I think,
what's going to lead us to a increase.
I hesitate to use the word plethora,
but I'll use it.
A plethora of multimodal, correlated data
of a quality that I don't
think we have right now
outside of the military.
And so when I look to five years down
the future,
I see ace as the brain of that operation.
But that brain is helping to support
a whole ecosystem
of hardware innovators
that want to deploy these systems
across the United States,
across the world, potentially.
There's some super exciting things
that can be done with that because like,
for example,
I have like a weather station,
a personal weather station
that run, run at my homestead.
And that's something that okay, we take
barometer, you know, and then we got some,
you know, like wind direction and
some other normal meteorological things.
And so then if what will it look like?
It may not be that atypical in
a couple of years that we may be able to
if we're like sort of citizen scientists
and you want to contribute your data
to this kind of network
that you'd also add on some sensor
or sensors that we find
are also very useful for, for helping to,
to do anomaly detection, particularly
for different kinds of object.
Maybe it's infrared, maybe it's whatever,
some sort of like, you know,
phased array thing that is cost
effective enough for someone.
Yeah. Yeah.
There's a there's a
and so that's super tight.
And I expect that, one of our future
episodes will be featuring
some of the team members and core team
members with NASA who have certainly like
ten x 100 x, the kind of like sensor
payload that you would find from
in someone's backyard that are these
these individuals
are extremely technically competent
and really looking at trying to like
if we can what what phenomena, physics
phenomena can we exploit
and then how do we make sense of all that
data come in.
If you collect it, that's one part.
Then you've got to sort of process
that that gets into some of the the like
sort of weak signal kind of models
that we talked about earlier in the show.
And so it's I know I'm
personally super excited about that.
And I think a lot of the audience members,
you may also be like,
oh, maybe that's a way that that I, down
the road can be able to contribute
is to explore this and how
how much you know, how how cool can it
be to use like a Raspberry
Pi to, to help explore the phenomena
well and actually share it out
to the rest of the community?
It's empowering that way. Yeah.
So I mean, so
it's come a long way and
it's in its relatively short life,
but now it's it's a
it's a nonprofit vehicle to help
get us into this.
Well,
we think really sort of strategic position
to not just talk about the issues
but and start to positively influence
policy development,
but also to be building
the infrastructure, physical
and otherwise, around around this.
A critic may say, well, but Ace has got
I don't know, is there some sort of
like vested interest in in this?
How how might we as an organization
and as individuals
so avoid some of the kind of confirmation
bias as or other sort of,
you know, like thumb on the scale
kind of kind of claims that someone may.
Yeah. I mean.
I guess the answer is, I damn right
I got a vested interest.
I want to know what the fuck's going
on, you know, like.
So I mean, that's. My best interest.
So ultimately you wouldn't be able
to have volunteered
and donated as much time as I have
over the past four years and less.
You're passionate
about getting down to the bottom of this.
But, you know, with any endeavor,
you know, if you are not operating
in a way that,
you know, rubs up against reality,
then you're just deluding yourself, right?
And so I actually do have a real vested
interest in figuring this out.
And that means I need to really understand
this from a scientific,
you know, perspective.
Actually, you know, what is really
happening here, what is the reality of it.
And that that dictates that I must use
best scientific principles
in order to move forward.
I'm not a scientist. I'm not.
I don't have a PhD.
I have a bachelor's
degree in aerospace engineering.
So I can talk some of the talk.
But at the end of the day,
you know, this isn't a one person task.
And that's why, you know,
I've consistently and we've consistently
looked at academia both to motivate
and to potentially partner.
I've spoken at of universities,
you know, tier
one schools around the country on this.
There is interest, but there is
this old guard that still is a bit tepid
of sinking their feet into this,
you know, amongst the professorship,
as I'm sure you can relate to,
but one that is changing.
We are seeing progress there.
But, you know, Ayeza is going to have
to rely on partnering
with those organizations
to make sure that the work done on
this is done
agnostic through third parties.
And that's the goal, right?
If I if we get to a point
where our data is of such high quality
and scientifically valid, it's traceable
and the data
has been collected in a standardized way
that is useful to the scientific analysis
that an academic would like to pursue.
That's where we want to get.
And then I'm happy to make that data
readily available to many institutions
so that they can do their analysis
and tell us,
you know, hopefully fulfill my my desire
to know what's going on.
And that's something that I think is about
like, I want to know what's going on.
Yes, I have a vested interest in this.
And and I see a parallel
in some of the academic community
where there may be professors.
Some certainly are quiet about it,
but very interested.
There's a little more, more visible
in the public realm.
Where they are on the ten year letter.
That certainly makes a big difference.
You know, not not all
professors are tweed jack
that wearing pipe smoke and folks
who wax philosophy,
maybe the philosophy professors are,
but for the rest of the rest of them,
I'm not so much.
I've heard it, you know, commentary
within the academic circles like, well,
but isn't, you know, professor So-and-so,
he or she doesn't.
Aren't they, like, aren't
they just exhibiting their opinion
about the phenomena in some way and all?
There are going to be based
on that opinion.
And I'm like, there's a healthy aspect.
We want to have skepticism,
but not to to our own,
like dismissal
and not recognizing blinders on.
Ostrich algorithm of
just put your head in the sand.
It's yeah, there's an opinion about that.
I think there might be something there.
And then I will design an experiment to
hopefully get some sort of clarification.
That's the point of the scientific
process, is to establish a hypothesis
and then the methodology
and how other folks evaluate that and say,
okay, yeah.
And and to the point that hopefully
within the various sort of domains of UAP
that we can get to where
like many other scientific instrument
groups like say in medicine,
where can we get to the point where
we have some sort of a sensor package
or a case package,
and we can sort of delete
all the proper nouns, like the name
and stuff, of who submitted it
and that, that detail,
and then just send this data payload
to some other researcher group and say,
what do you think about this?
And, and then get their kind of
independent assessment
in the medical community.
We do that all the time
to to get a second or third opinion
on, say, a radiological image.
Yeah.
You know, at the end of the day,
you know, I'll even make it even simpler
for our listeners.
You don't need to do publish a paper
or do some type of study that reaches this
conclusion that your foes equal aliens or,
you know, they're from here.
You can do an analysis,
and I'll use an interesting example
that pops to mind,
because a recent conversation with Gary
Nolan, you can do a detailed
material analysis on something
proposed to be exotic and study the
crystal alignment and formation
and striations in the material,
blah, blah, blah, and,
and publish the results of that,
but not necessarily reach a conclusion
of what that data means.
Right.
You can present the data
in a scientifically valid way,
but you don't have to reach a conclusion
necessarily of what that means, right?
You can present the data clean and allow
allow them to then make an interpretation
of what that data means.
And I don't think there's enough of that.
There's too much of that is a UAP
that is not a UAP.
And here's some quick analysis.
But if you if you can really just study
what's in front of you
for what the contents of it provide,
what can you know about it versus
then therefore
drawing a conclusion to therefore must
be aliens or something of that nature.
And you see that a little bit
where people are really decomposing
some of the cases
I know the Kimble case I was involved with
has been through rigorous,
you know, modeling and analysis,
and I don't think that's that's done
enough.
And I think that's something that can be
probably
I don't want to use a word automated,
but I'll just say structured.
And right now it's like a 6 to 8 months
a year process for people to say, yeah,
look at that.
And guess what?
People and do this kind of volunteerism
to understand these, you know,
if we were truly talking about something
remarkable here,
that's not how this is going to progress,
right?
We need to have some real systems
involved with this, some standardization,
building some architectures
and softwares around this
that are going to allow us to analyze this
like we would any other problem
that we try to attack,
whether it be semiconductor manufacturing
or whether modeling
or, you know, the price of,
you know, comparable issues on eBay.
Right?
We measure everything, right?
We need to measure this to. Yes.
It's something that I found
useful is like well, within
it was one of our guest speakers with
within the Confronting
Knowns course at MIT.
A research scientist from the Haystack
Observatory is described
how how to develop
new algorithms and technologies.
And within the geophysics community,
it's well, if we think there's a couple
interesting pixels
on a huge iMac sized screen
and we think there's a couple pixels
are a little anomalous,
how do we or are they just like dead
pixels or something, like,
how do we test that?
And the ways of being able
to tease that out in a systematic way to
to multiple independent groups
and see, say, try legacy
or new algorithms against it
and let's come back in six months and see,
do we all get the same result within 70%?
And if yes, then okay,
there's something there.
We just have to figure out what it is.
And if we were to, in six months,
get completely different things,
then the algorithms are generating
artifacts or we're doing some sort
of like mosaic effect on that.
I want to use this time, Ryan,
to to dig into something
I know we're all here for,
which is a bit more about the cases
that we've been been exploring.
And so, you know, with without, you know,
too much specifics, whatever,
whatever we can share.
Let's look at some of the cases lately
that that have surprised you or some,
some patterns that you're starting to see.
Yeah.
I mean, gosh, it's,
it's a weird position to be in.
The received
so many crazy reports like this.
A lot for the head.
Yeah.
I mean, just gosh,
it just raises so many questions.
But you know, let me try to give a kind of
like status of the playing field as,
as I kind of see it,
you know, so, you know, there seems to be,
I would say maybe like three kind
of categories of phenomenon.
Maybe, there's the spheres sometimes
or metallic spheres in the daytime
sometimes they're a bit elongated.
I'd even maybe wrap the TikTok into that
as well, like a much larger
elongated sphere. Right.
And nighttime,
these can represent as orange or,
white or blue or green.
A lot of different colors
have been reported,
as well as some rainbow
effects of the object changing color.
You know,
these are kind of fit two categories.
One, they're very far away.
And it's really hard
to make out much detail.
So they generally present as an orb
or a point source of light,
or they are in closer proximity
or to different phenomena, of course.
And you can physically make out it's
there's an interior structure.
Now, are these the same objects
I have some reason to believe they are.
And I'll share that with you in a moment.
But these, like I said, are often seen
very high altitudes, potentially in orbit,
performing in ways that are not consistent
with how things behave in orbit.
And of course,
as I think many of us are aware now,
the proliferation of satellites
and low Earth orbit vis a vis
Starlink and other providers,
there is a lot of strange visual artifacts
that exist now for pilots
and others that didn't exist
just a few years ago,
where it appears like
the object is rapidly changing position,
when in fact that object
is blinking out along its linear path.
And then a number object
basically blinks into indivisibility
almost at the same point.
And that's because there's a band
above the earth that you can't see
that defines where the sunlight
allows for reflectivity.
So if you're in that band as a satellite
traverses enter that band, become visible.
You're like, it blinked out of nowhere,
and then it reaches the end of that band.
It blinks out,
and sometimes satellites can arrive
from a different direction,
and one blinks in and it blinks out.
And just as this
one blinks out, the other one blinks in
from the other direction, kind of,
and it looks like it changed direction
and the angles aren't clear.
Severe as I'm making out with my hands.
But, so it gives the appearance
that the object is rapidly
changing position when it's not.
And there's many other different
effects like that,
but there are some ways to identify
that it's not startling,
such as it being consistently visible
and illuminated in
and outside of that band for long extended
periods of time, or at times when the sun
is completely behind the Earth
and while it's fully illuminated,
making those maneuvers.
And that might sound a bit nuanced,
but it can be as easy as
somewhat tricky ambiguous case
I described versus
watching these things circle
each other for hours during a flight.
Right?
And obviously satellites don't do that,
and they certainly don't stay in
one piece of the sky like that
unless they're very far away.
And if they were very far away,
the amount of space
they would be maneuvering to cover
that is so large
that these things would be tens
of thousands of miles per hour.
I can I don't even know,
probably hundreds of thousands of miles.
So, you know, they that's kind of
some of the uncertainty that we deal with.
Now, what are those are those advanced
technologies, some kind of space
combat systems that we're not aware of
that are operating?
Is there some other type of optical
illusion that we're not familiar with?
Low probability on that.
But we can throw it on the table.
So that's, you know, one kind of question
mark area.
Again we're seeing these things as well
Co altitude with aircraft sometimes
joining on aircraft along their wing,
moving up and down, repositioning
to the other side of the flight
for like an hour and a half. Right.
And that's of course
a whole different type of experience.
In some of those cases, when the aircraft
starts to sent down to land,
these things will climb
until they're no longer visible
and some of them go down towards the ocean
and park there.
And the pilots have reported
like seeing the water illuminated
with a different color
light from these objects.
They're appearing at lower altitudes
as well, at approach altitudes
for aircraft, seeing them at 1500
or 2000ft on approaches in the airports,
much more congested, busy
and dangerous part of the flight.
And so, you know,
to kind of tie in something interesting,
you know, often any of those
three categories are just described to you
or kind of seen individually,
a pilot on approach or a commercial pilot
has these things on this wing
or they're seeing them high above.
I've had interesting cases
where witnesses, groups of them
have observed that very high altitude
maneuvering
for extended periods of time, 30,
40 minutes,
and then watched as he seems
to send it down all the way down
from where L2 they were,
to about 20ft over the witness.
And in this particular case,
there's about 25 U.S.
Marines that were exposed to this.
This object came
it was about 15ft in diameter,
consistent with the same size objects
we were seeing off the coast
of Virginia Beach.
And it was described as a disco ball,
more or less object, so multifaceted,
collecting a lot of light, also emitting
its own light out of some of these panels.
I think that's an extremely interesting
case.
And there's others like it
where people have observed these
very high altitudes, but also watch them
to send all the way down to
within visual range and had interactions.
At the end of this, these things
climb back up.
So that's,
you know, a whole complicated category.
And there's much more
we could talk about under those.
Interestingly, you know, maybe
a little bit more on the softer side.
But for those cases with those
those fears, interestingly,
about 30% of the witnesses
that we've received information from on
those have had a intuition
that they were about to see something,
maybe turned off the TV and walked outside
or pulled over their car,
looked in a certain direction,
maybe even made a comment to someone
right before about how crazy it would be
if we just saw one,
and then boom, there it was.
It's data.
I don't know what it means,
but it's a pretty, pretty strong signal.
We'll see how to unpack that.
I think it's a it's a call for the folks
of the amenities, folks who are like,
there's a there's definitely a role for
for that kind of expertise.
Absolutely.
Within UAP, it's
not just let's make swanky or sensors.
It's there's a lot to it's multi-domain.
Yeah.
And so that's the spheres, you know,
and then you know, ever reoccurring
or black triangles, as I'm sure people
interested in a topic I've heard before,
this is a phenomenon
that has been described,
I think back to at least the 50s, where
about 100 yards to a side triangle,
black triangle, thin gun,
metal stock or sheer black color,
they're almost always described
with purple or blue lights at the corners
of the triangle on the bottom,
presumably some type of propulsion device,
and very often with a
a red light in the center of the craft.
Numerous commercial pilots
have reported this.
Numerous commercial pilots have had very
close near-misses with black triangles.
I have a case of a 737 crew
having a nose and nose past 200ft
with a black triangle, very similar to how
I just described this one had almost
like a glowing like orange golden plasma
field on the bottom, as if almost.
It was like reentering, you know,
from space one might expect or imagined.
That's how he described it.
And, you know, there's a half dozen
other cases of black triangles
having your passes near misses
with commercial air traffic in the past,
I think 8 or 10 years.
And so those always continue to pop up
a lot of report to those on ground.
People always ask me what
I think they are.
You know,
I will say that they do seem to land
a lot on military bases
and NASA basis, for whatever reason.
And yet,
like I said, have remained unchanged
in their appearance in operation
since the 50s or so.
I don't know how to square
those two pieces of information.
And, you know, then there seems to be just
this whole other category of stuff
that is extraneous, right?
Almost like everyone's individual, as if,
you know, it's hard
to make sense of the shape, you know,
like maybe there's appendages or just,
you know, boxes and things
that just like the brain doesn't
look at it and make sense of
of what the operation is.
It doesn't look like anything
that we would expect.
Or maybe we interpret it as something like
Jetpack Man, if you will.
There's one that kind of
looks like a guy riding in a jetpack.
Is that a guy who jetpack, or is it
something that we don't understand
how it works and can't point to anything
and say, well, that looks like that.
That looks like a camera.
That looks like an antenna, right.
And there's many,
many such cases like that.
Gosh.
And, you know, I could probably go
on all day, very large spheres the size
of, you know, football stadiums
being seen over aircraft carriers,
Russians
apparently waiting for black triangles
to appear out of nowhere over their ships
in the middle of the Atlantic
while the U.S. watches.
I mean, I can't make sense of it yet,
but all I know is something
remarkable is happening, you know?
And I know I'm
not the only one that feels that way.
I know, at least at some level.
That's why you're here at American Pharoah
space to help get these answers as well.
And I think, you know, when people take
just a few minutes to just think about
the risk of understanding this, right,
or the risk of ignoring it.
Right.
They'll understand that, you know,
this should be information
that they prioritize into their,
you know, daily operations.
And for the average person,
that might not be much thought,
but for the, the pilots and,
the service members out there,
this is something that not only you might
just bump into prosaically,
but it also might be something that poses
a significant risk to your life
and operations as a pilot or someone else.
So, you know,
I think, if nothing else, you know, as
perhaps we close off this episode,
you know, I want to make a plea.
Well, first, actually,
I would like to thank,
you know, the hundreds of pilots
that have already come forward
that have already said,
you know, screw the stigma of showed,
you know, the backbone
and the fortitude to say,
hey, this is important.
And I'm not going to let my fear of what
my boss is going to say or what my, my
friends and colleagues are going to say,
I'm not going to let that stop me
from the responsibilities
that I have as a pilot to report unsafe
conditions as I observe them,
not just for myself or for my passengers,
but for the air crew behind me.
That's going to be on that same route,
or for the guy
that's going to take his jet out
and use that area after you.
We all know that we have a responsibility
to share that as as aviators.
And so let's act on it.
And, you know, we're here
for you and Americans for Safe Aerospace
to have these conversations
to get the story out there,
whether it's through the podcast
or just adding the data to our database
so that we can better understand it
and help share that information for you.
So if you're a current pilot,
former pilot
veteran, we'd love to talk to you.
We'd love to hear
what's going on. It is important.
It is being used
and it is changing the world right now.
So come be a part of it. Come help us out.
For those that haven't
had their experience yet,
I'll say if you would like to help us
out, like and subscribe to this.
This will get us to make more content
and every one of those
likes and subscribes
doesn't just help this channel,
it helps our whole organization build
and do the work that you've heard
about today.
I've been working on this for four years.
We've been getting our hands real dirty.
We're coming out on the other side
with some really interesting capabilities,
with some, I think, knowledge that is
really moving the conversation forward.
And, you know, at the end of the day,
we're just at the absolute
start of the start,
I think in this conversation. Right.
We are absolutely
just about to run through that start line.
This is going to be a long conversation.
This isn't something that is going away
in a couple of years.
And so if you want to be a part
of that conversation now and help us out,
we're here for you. Ryan has demonstrated
what it takes to be a leader,
and something that I'd like to add to that
is that being a leader is one thing,
and being the follower is that that
first followers super critical.
And there have been, as you mentioned,
there's there have been many pilots
in aircrew and other folks who have
followed up and saw your leadership
and said, I'm going to follow that path
that you started to lay.
And we we need more of you
all to, to to be able to do that.
And so I think to close out, it's
that we're,
you know, with Americans for Safe
Aerospace, we're, we're, we're
people building, striving to build
the most kind of rigorous look at what
maybe going on in our, in our skies
and our sees all domain.
And to tell you what what
what they know what the builders
to tell you what they know.
And also importantly, to
to tell us what we don't know yet.
And so.
And we'll build it together,
you know, we'll be bringing on the people
that are doing this work.
We'll be looking for volunteers
through this channel, and,
you know, we'll make a mess
and embarrass ourselves sometimes.
But, we'll we'll build it together
and we'll use it together at the end.
Well, with that,
that's the Safe Aerospace podcast.
Ryan, it's so great to to be with you.
Thanks for coming out.
Thanks for letting me ask you questions
and for any of you.
And me. Thank you sir. Thanks everyone.