Bill Willits on Creating Community

Show Notes

Bill Willits from North Point Ministries discusses what's changed in small group ministry since the original release of Creating Communities in 2005, what's working and not working in 2021, and how North Point has innovated their ministry to connect and reach people now. Bill talks about recruiting leaders, connecting people into groups, and serving the community. He also shares some significant shifts in North Point's ministry.

What is Exponential Groups Podcast with Allen White?

In each episode you will discover effective ways to recruit more leaders, form better groups, and make more disciples. Guests to this monthly podcast will include small group and discipleship experts like Carl George, Dr. Warren Bird, Steve Gladen, Mark Howell, Dr. Bill Donahue, Bill Willits, Chris Surratt, as well as some pastors you've never heard of who are doing some amazing things with small groups and discipleship.

Bill Willits:
And we liken it these days. Any made this analogy, I think is really important. Then baristas, where we've basically been able to take orders and help people get what they need and to have to recalibrate ourselves to becoming more missionaries.
Allen White:
Welcome to the exponential group's podcast. I'm your host, Alan White. This podcast is designed to help you take the guesswork out of groups. In each episode, you will discover effective ways to recruit more leaders, form better groups, and make more disciples. Please subscribe to this monthly podcast on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to episode nine. Today's guest is bill Willis. Bill is the executive director of adult ministry environments for north point ministries. One of the founding staff members of north point builds a graduate of Florida state university and Dallas theological seminary. He is also the co-author of the book, creating community with Andy Stanley, which was recently re-released in an updated and expanded edition bill and his team have helped connect thousands of adults into the benefits of group life. He is married to his wife, Terry, and they have one daughter Bailey and one granddaughter Bentley to access the show notes for today's episode, go to Alan white.org forward slash episode nine. That's a L L E N w H I T e.org/episode number nine. Now let's hear from bill Willis. All right, bill. Welcome to the podcast.
Bill Willits:
Hey,
Allen White:
So you have creating community has come out again new edition after 16 years, a lot has changed in the last 16 months, not just 16 years, but what are you seeing that's different now from when you originally wrote the book 16 years ago?
Bill Willits:
Like everything. Yeah. Um, certainly this last 16 months have accelerated that, but you know, uh, one of the things that we talk about is that individually, um, the need for community really Allen has never been greater. We, I used a quote 16 years ago from Gallup that said Americans are the loneliest people in the world. That quote that I used 16 years ago had actually been written 14 years previous. So it was 30 years old and right before COVID and again, this is pre COVID. I saw some studies that shown the loneliness epidemic that we have in the Americas only got worse. Gen Z is called the loneliest generation ever, and is in worse physical health than all the other generations before coming out of the pandemic. As you guys all know, um, anxiety and depression are up, substance abuses up suicide, suicidal thoughts are up.
Bill Willits:
And so the need for what we purveyors of community are all about has never been greater. So there's that kind of piece that individually the needs freight, but culturally, I think we're at a definitely different day because the technological changes of the last 16 years, they have really provided some great benefits, but also some corporate, uh, corresponding challenges. I was at the apple store and last night, or are they at and T store buying a new phone for my daughter and what the new phones are going to be able to do compared to old phones? Um, isn't it amazing that your kid's phone just happens to go on the blink right before new introduction? Isn't that who knew?
Bill Willits:
But I mean, I think the changes have been great. And we saw that, um, over the last 16 years, I mean, think about it. There were no smart phones. Uh, when it wrote 16 years ago, there was no real social media presence or there's no digital connection options. That was definitely not a possibility. And we look at all those things. We say, man, those advancements they've been such gifts, but they've come with some corresponding costs or downsides as well. For example, people today in that gen Z quote earlier, I think it's an example of that. They just don't know how to create meaningful relationships with other people as easily as they once did when they didn't have other things to distract them continually. And, you know, because of that, you've got some organizations that are taking some extraordinary steps to try and break the, um, the loneliness gap.
Bill Willits:
If you will. Uh, I saw a quote and, you know, you saw it as well, that university of Southern California hired a director of belonging to help you get class the class on how to create meaningful relationships. Uh, they saw that students were having a hydro higher dropout rate. They were dealing with suicide and those kinds of issues. And so they said, okay, we gotta stem the tide here with the campus experience, let's hire a director of belonging in the class is a big hit because kids have been so focused on their devices. They haven't done some of the, what we would thought intuitive work of just being able to connect well with other people. University of Chicago is working on a loneliness bill and it is meant to help, um, bring down anxiety in social situations. And while they say they aren't promising, it will take loneliness away.
Bill Willits:
Their attempt is to dry, try to deal with this pandemic and the UK, the last illustration, um, in the UK, they had this, um, minister of loneliness that they, that they decided through a study that they needed to create and give a cabinet level, um, funding and, and, uh, staffing. And so I think today, culturally not only is loneliness a problem, but culturally we've only exasperated that issue. And so one of our, one of our biggest challenges, I think as church leaders is training and retraining people on how to be fully present and how to have meaningful relationships because those intuitive things of go out and play be with others, learn what it means to be a good friend and to have good friends, uh, has escaped. And, um, and so the need for what we do I think is greater than it's ever been.
Bill Willits:
And I think technology is just even made it more. So I love that the, the, uh, this one quote, and I can't remember who said it, but technology was meant to make those who were far off field near, and what it's done is made those near field far off. And how many of us are all guilty of having done that with people in our midst, but I, I think it's so true. So I think there's some upsides obviously to the technological changes, but there's also some corresponding challenges that I'm hopeful we can help people navigate more effectively in the days ahead.
Allen White:
Yeah. I, uh, a wise person said once that today people have more means of connecting than ever before, and yet they're more disconnected than they've ever been. And that wise person was my wife. So, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think that there's, there's definitely pluses and minuses, and I think it's a thing where it creates kind of pseudo community that you think, you know, you're, you're following things, you're watching things, you're, you have some kind of interaction, but not necessarily people you're interacting with. And so it gives you this experience as if you've been with people and yet it leaves you feeling discouraged and depressed and envious and you know, all of those things. So, yeah. So you you've been in the small group world for a while. Let's kind of talk about how, how did you start into this whole small group thing?
Bill Willits:
I would say small groups have been part of my life since my early twenties, uh, and it was an organic group. It wasn't a strategic part of the church I was attending at the time. Um, so a couple of group experiences when I was in seminary, we also, I was in a small group and that was very meaningful as well. But organizationally, when we started north point, there were three of us and there were, I mean, there were six of us that were part of the launch and everybody owned everything if you know what I mean? So we all jumped in. And so when it came to small groups, we had early on decided that, um, groups would be kind of the organizational construct that we would leverage, um, in connecting people, meaningfully in our church and we'd come out of Sunday school environments. So we weren't by Sunday school, we had just experienced something unique in our group experience.
Bill Willits:
So Annie called me one night and he said, Hey, I realized that we are just tooling around. We're growing big at the front door, but we are not getting people well-connected, um, in their experience in the first month or two. And so how can, uh, what do you think we should do? And, oh, by the way, I would love you to lead it. And so it was, it was one of those, it was ironic. Like we were watching the Braves play off, and this is back when we had landlines in my phone, rings something who's calling me in the middle of the playoffs and it was him. And he had heard from the Lord, no, he didn't use that term and invited me into a new future. And, uh, and so small groups was a big piece of that.
Allen White:
Now, other than the Braves play off, where did you think you were headed at
Bill Willits:
That time? Um, you know, that's a great question. We had, we had a strategy that moved people relationally through different environments in our church. And so I was predominantly in that season, 60% of our congregation was young singles. And so I had been leading that initiative and, um, enjoyed it immensely had been in marriage ministry, went and worked with our young singles, started something, um, that was real meaningful for us, um, with Louie Galileo. And it was a Bible study that we did every week. And so that's where I thought I'd be for at least a few more years, but, um, but then the church started to mature. We got into Birch, we started to see a lot of families come in and just this need for adults to have meaningful connection really took shape. Yeah.
Allen White:
Ah, so you and Andy and several others were in this group. So I mean, maybe it's a no brainer, but what was it about the quality of that group that you guys wanted to see that multiply?
Bill Willits:
Yeah, so, yeah, and I think this deserves context because our first group experience was before we actually started North Korea. So we're in a different church, we're doing ministry and, and you know, church ministry, when you're leading something on Sunday mornings, you don't have the opportunity to participate in it. And so, uh, as young married guys, we were looking for ways to connect as couples with a few other people in the church because, um, we needed it, we needed it for our lives. We needed it for our marriages and we needed it, um, for our growth. And so we started a small group and I got, uh, we got two couples and they got two couples and we saw some just extraordinary things happen. I mean, Alan, I can tell you, honestly, I don't remember. I remember one curriculum that we studied. Um, so it wasn't always the curriculum.
Bill Willits:
Um, that drove obviously what we experienced, but it was the freedom to have a group of people, uh, in our lives that provided a safe place when we needed it. Most we're starting, you know, when we, um, uh, we were in a kind of transitional season and church and, um, there was just a lot of things happening to, to have a place where we could really get perspective process life and have people turning us back towards Jesus on a regular basis. When the answer we were going through infertility at the time we went through 13 years at that season, I was leading marriage ministry. So we were in the baby factory and we were dying. And, you know, while some of the couples in the group were starting their families, then having their second kids and which was great. So we could celebrate with them and they could walk with us and a real season of grief, you know, wondering what the heck out of what, what are you up to? And so, um, yeah, I just say it wasn't the curriculum, but, uh, one guy came to faith. As I mentioned, some people started their families. We tried to start our family. We saved, I think one, couple from early divorce. Um, but it wasn't, it was because we were authentically walking with each other, asking real questions and being present when we needed each other most. Yeah.
Allen White:
No, and that's, that's it, that's it. And obviously if people can catch in the sense of that, you know, why would they, you know, they would run to it and not run from it. Right. But I know that at north point in your ministry, you use the analogy of a house and the front porch and, and so groups are not on the front end of things. Groups tend to be, as people get in, right. Am I say, am I stating that right?
Bill Willits:
Yeah. Historically that's been true. And yet I think that's one of the cultural shifts
Allen White:
I was going to say, the front porch has changed this
Bill Willits:
Year and sure. As it's look at all the people, we have some, yeah. W we historically would liken the ministry environments to rooms in a house. So we had the four year where you had guests, you had the living room where you had friends, and then you had the kitchen table where you had family. And the whole idea was moving people strategically through those environments. So they could move from being guests, to family, to friends. And, um, but as you know, we're seeing people who are starting and some of our group environments, or some of our middle pool environments, and they are more likely to be willing to, uh, belong before they believe and beyond journey with us. And it can be, you know, a common cause that we're all surrounded around, or it can be a common activity that we're all around. Um, but we're seeing while those who come to the church, that mindset still works. We're seeing people start with group through relationships with somebody, again, back
Allen White:
North point has been such a successful ministry. And, and yet to be able to, instead of waiting for things, to get quote unquote, back to normal and for things to come around, it's like, how do we in this world we have now, even though we may be longing for the good old days of 2019, how do we, how do we minister to people we have now knowing that 20, 22 is still going to be different. Yeah. And so I think that's great. I mean, because, you know, cause a lot of times when you've had such an effective model and you've had the, you you've led the conference, you've taught the people. And yet it's matter of, you know, what everybody has to innovate right now.
Bill Willits:
Totally. Uh, we liken it these days. Any made this analogy I think is really important. Then baristas, where we've basically been able to take orders and help people get what they need. And we're going to have to recalibrate ourselves to becoming more missionaries and helping. And we've kind of changed our strategic language where rather than rooms in the house, what we're doing more is we're endearing ourselves to our communities, inspiring people who walk in the doors to follow Jesus and then equipping the core. So we say in gear inspire, equip is kind of the strategic framework in which we're operating out because we want people happy that we're in their communities and, um, they feel better. Um, they feel good and they feel better off because we're in the community. So there are things that we're doing in the community and the name of Jesus, just to be good neighbors who knew that was actually not a bad idea, you know, good neighbors. And, uh, so during the last 18 months in particular, I mean, we got the COVID testing site in our parking lot. We've, we've done, I think 25 red cross blood drives. Um, as of during COVID people were not giving blood, like they had historically. So looking at unique ways that we can be, uh, endearing ourselves to our communities as part of that, becoming a missionary rather than a barista.
Allen White:
I liked that. I liked that analogy. Yeah. I know. As far as medical things go, so a doctor's office called me saying, oh, it's time for you to come in for your, you know, and I'm like, listen, I'm not going anywhere near anything medical for a long time. And so I can understand why people would stay away from that. So definitely a plus, well, let's go very practical. Um, some people look at north point as if, you know, you just landed on earth from outer space somewhere and it just appeared and were like, oh wow, you can't even touch that. We don't even know how it happened. Uh, but you know how it happened because you were there before it happened. Um, so rather than looking at, oh, they have, you know, all these tens of thousands of people in groups, let's go just granular to, how do you recruit a group leader? How do you, how do you recruit them and develop them and launch a group? What does that look like at north point?
Bill Willits:
I love this question because it's one, we are asking ourselves constantly. Um, and you, and I know there are a lot of little pushes involved in enlisting leaders. There's no silver bullets. And so anybody who is looking for the silver bullet, it doesn't exist. Um, and, uh, there are not any easier people, uh, to enlist. Um, they all busy, they all have other things to do. So you're not crazy, but we use, uh, five or six, seven different things. And they all have little pushes on the flywheel for us when it comes to enlistment, obviously stage announcements. We're about, well, four to six weeks out from a group launch season for us, we'll do stage announcements kind of as a teaser of what's coming. And then we'll throw in there. If you're interested in leading text this number or text lead to this number and we will follow up with you.
Bill Willits:
And so stage announcements is one way. Andy does an email video announcement just about, I want to say eight weeks before our group launch season, where he says, Hey, mark, your calendar registration is going to go live on this date. If you would like to be, uh, get a reminder when those are, we're an online registration system, when that online registration system opens, you know, Texas to this. And if you would like to lead again, just another little thing we will do that. We have a follow-up two weeks later, that is a lead pastor email coming from Andy. Then the local campus follow up, we're doing social media videos and asks along the way we ask probably my favorite is let's just ask our current leaders who in our group can lead. Um, you know, I always say, when you're looking for who you need, don't forget those you have. And so they're sitting right there. They know the, the people in their group, of course, many of them are saying, yeah, but they won't be in my group anymore. And I say, guess what? They will still be in the community. You, you will be able to have opportunity to be with them, but don't let the success of your group be the demise of our group system. Um, and I like that create space. Like we created space for you. That's, that's what, you know. So we throw that out currently to recommendation.
Allen White:
Are they selfless enough to do that?
Bill Willits:
What do you sometimes, you know, guilt is a very strong and, um, and powerful tool. We try not to use it
Allen White:
Very strong. Yeah. I'm working with the church right now. And I told him, I said, Hey, if there's anybody in your group that you know that they have the stuff they can do it, could you just encourage them to go that way? And I said, or the other way to look at it is who in your group really bugs you? Wouldn't you like to see them out?
Bill Willits:
Yes. Uh, that's perfect. Um, you might have a
Allen White:
Leadership gift and that's why they bug them, you know?
Bill Willits:
Y Y Y yeah, that's right. Uh, staff nomination in our smaller campuses when they get started early, um, there's people in their leadership community already with Sunday morning environments that we say, Hey, who are top drawer, mature leaders that you feel would make good group leaders, and we will put them with somebody else. So it's a cold lead kind of situation. They're not feeling the full burden, but you know, they've got the leadership potential. They're involved in a Sunday morning environment. Obviously an adult group on a weeknight will not interfere fear with that commitment. So we'll go to other staff and look at a current Sunday and volunteers. And, but again, all those, you know, when we have asked our attendees, who ended up leading, what were the things that help move the needle on their leadership? And we're just, you know, we're all setting the simple bullet. There is none, it's all these little pushes along the way. And then somebody seen something in somebody that called them out and just said, Hey, you got too much here. You, you need to do this. So,
Allen White:
And sometimes people don't see it for themselves.
Bill Willits:
That's, that's very true.
Allen White:
It takes it inside of somebody else. And I mean, not all it, isn't just, you know, it's not just honoring their flattering. It's, you know, they, they just don't see it because it's, so it's not obvious to them. They think everybody can do that. You know? So if I text and say, Hey, bill, I want to be a leader. Um, or, Hey, Andy, I want to be a leader. Um, what happens next?
Bill Willits:
Yeah. Great question. So we have an application system and process where they fill out an application. Then they have a interview with an individual staff person, generally smaller campuses may use to key volunteer. And then, uh, we'll check a couple of references. It's arduous at times, but it's well worth it. You know, because generally it is just words of affirmation that then you can pour back on the individual that gives them, you know, steam to move forward in their leadership. And then once they are approved, we end up doing what is functionally new leader, orientation for them and walk them through. What we would say is really the one-on-one of group life for us in the first 90 days for a new leader, we want to give them three touchpoints. So two of those are in huddle formats, and the third is going to be a personal interaction with a staff person, because what we've come to find through the years is that launching new groups is really done in the first 90 to 120 days.
Bill Willits:
And if we can hand hold and make sure they've got the assets and the tools that they need to get launched, well, then we have been successful most of the time. So we provide two of those huddles actually have material. First one, as I said is really more about orientation. The second one more is case study and scenarios. What do you do in this situation? And then that's a great time to bring in some seasoned leaders who can speak in to what's happened when those scenarios take place. And then, um, you know, we try to provide touch points and huddles for all leaders. A couple of times a year, um, during COVID we were being very intentional of providing drive through opportunities for leaders, just see other leaders or see their staff, coaches, their staff directors through a drive-through, and we would give them a piece of swag or something that was just saying, Hey, we are, we know this has been a really tough season pivoting to both digital and in-person has been real challenging.
Bill Willits:
Thank you for what you're doing since we've opened back up since, uh, for us that was Easter, we've provided three different meet and greets after church on Sunday. Just again, to try to build that community again, uh, that has been so disconnected for so long because you, you know this, I mean, I love zoom. Um, we we've learned so much because of zoom, but there is a real thing called zoom fatigue, and we've got, we've got limits to it. And I will say, um, digital community is good, especially when it leads to embody community. And, um, and there's no substitute. So,
Allen White:
So people have signed up to do a group they've they've met the requirements. Um, how do you fill these groups?
Bill Willits:
So great. Uh, we do, um, we had a database shift about four years ago, which enabled us to move seamlessly. And that was the operative word you could always do online digital connection, but we couldn't do it seamlessly without grading competing databases. Oh, wow. Which we didn't want to do. So that's daunting. Yeah. It is a everyday men from the pit listen, those things. So we ended up creating one that actually worked with us. And so we put groups geographically and by season of life, up on websites by individual churches, and then people when it's open and those who have texted us to say, Hey, send us a reminder. When the registration system opens, we send it to them. It's usually on a Sunday morning. So we get a Sunday morning announcement as well. And I'll tell you, we get about 70 to 80% of the spots filled by Sunday night.
Bill Willits:
I mean, people are, I'm ready to go. Now we're not touching what we did in 2019. Okay. So fall of 21 and fall of 19, we're almost spent in half. I mean, I, you know, that's, that was just our, our reality, but they go to the registration, they find their season of life, find their, uh, area of town. We do that two times a year. And then in the meantime, we provide some short term group options for people to get a taste and see that group is okay. Um, and we do that in, we tend to do it in gathering location. So it would for empty-nesters could be for those newly married and do some content, put them at tables, give them a taste and see. And then the driver at the end of the night is always, usually these are four to six weeks, I should say, at the end of the four to six weeks, we do a driver twice around the next connection opportunity. That's
Allen White:
Okay. So they're doing those on-campus or they're doing a lot of
Bill Willits:
Places on campus, uh, generally by and large. Again, there's some outliers. We do some short term groups in homes, but by and large it's those larger bathrooms. Okay.
Allen White:
Okay. Okay. Well, good. I, I would never talk about it, you know, what that looked like in your church. And honestly, it sounds, you know, let's kind of normal what other people do too. So, yeah. So I'm just curious. Um, who would you say as far as small group ministry goes, who have been some of your influences?
Bill Willits:
Well, I'll give you historically and I'll give you recently, historically the book that kind of drove us, and there were several Sarah deputy who was a voice back for us back in the day, because they were taking concepts, breaking them down and allow people to engage around them. And it was so good at it. And, um, you know, especially when it came to scripture and, uh, engaging people around it, Carl George, his book prepare your church for the future was a game changer for us and gave us really a good understanding of span of care. And, uh, that was really helpful. Our friends, uh, at Willow back in the day were very instrumental, uh, bill, Donnie hue, restaurant Robinson, uh, Rex miner, all those guys, very, uh, important bill actually, uh, mentored and coached us for probably the first two or three years. We just used him as an outside source and their values based approach we resonated with and, and got a lot from them.
Bill Willits:
But I mean, we've learned from, you know, everyone, we've, everyone we've read in, you know, this in group, w we all, there's not too many original thoughts. We're all white borrowing and stealing from each other. And I love that. I mean, I think that's the way it should be more recently with the short-term group options, national Christian, uh, with Heather, um, with their semester based system. We, we understand why they do semester-based in, on Capitol hill because it's the nature of the beast. People come out. We, you know, obviously for a high value of long established, authentic community, that's hard to get in there, but it did. It did register with us that there's something there to connecting people, giving them some kind of experience in the short term. So that, that, uh, informative. But your book, Chris Ross book, uh, bill search's book have all been meaningful deposits into our conversations. So,
Allen White:
Well, thanks. I heard my book. I didn't hear the rest of those guys. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I can't believe you said Capitol hill and beast in same sentence. So, um, I love it. All right. So getting going back to serious, you have pastors that they built a thing, and then the last year and a half happened and it kind of is falling apart and they don't know whether people are, if they're coming back or they got mad over something. And you know, so, so now they're trying to rebuild their small group ministry. So you, you know this, I mean, you're living this, you since, you know, this whole ethos, w w what do you say to the pastor is trying to rebuild a small group ministry right now, and it's just not coming as easy as it's been.
Bill Willits:
The reality is what we experienced in 19. And what we're going to experience in 22 are going to be two different things. I mean, we just have to come to rest with that, that people are now getting content different ways because of our online experiences. And that's okay for content. It's not okay if they're going to be disconnected. And so what we need to do is recognize that our marketing has to be different than it was just throwing up the announcement on Sunday and helping people get there. I think we got to through social media constantly remind people of the benefits of the connected life. What actually happens as a result. So we tell the story, not the bow where everything's perfect story all the time, but we do tell the person when they had life happened and it fell apart, it was their community that walked with them when they were wondering, where was God in the midst of my life, there was a group of people who gave them perspective to move back towards him, not run from it that that's, you know, that's going to be, um, you know, so important because community life is mission critical for what they're doing.
Bill Willits:
It's just going to be different. Um, I'd say also, always be learning, which means look for ways. Um, if you wonder about something, put pen and paper together and noodle on it, and what's the problem we're trying to solve. And what's the ways that we could solve this. And then how will we know evaluate, how will we know we solved it? I think, you know, innovation is an important piece, but don't forget in the midst of it effective education. I mean, execution. I mean, because at the end of the day groups in my estimation come down to two things, what's your plan? Who's your guide? What's your plan? Who's your guy, what are we going to do? Who's going to lead us there. And I think we can keep, you know, the simplicity of that upon us, we, we will, we'll be a step ahead.
Bill Willits:
We went through a season during COVID, where we had a lot of freedom to innovate, but there were hard days to innovate around. Right. So, you know, we didn't know what was working. Innovation is so critical, but don't forget. We can get our eyes off the ball of the blocking and tackling that is group ministry. When we're trying to come up with that next silver bullet. And we're as guilty of that at times as anyone, I obviously, I would, I would always say, when in doubt, keep your model simple. Don't try to be all things to all people. I would say, choose an approach. And you're probably going to cherry pick from a number of people. That's fine. There's no perfect model. There is no perfect group, embrace it, but choose what you're going to do. Run it for a season, evaluated along the way, modify what needs to be done and then sleep well at night because you've done what you can do at that point.
Bill Willits:
I think the thing that leaders, organizational leaders tell us all the time is that clarity is kindness and being clear about what are we trying to do and how are we going to try to do it? And keeping that in front of people keeps it simple. That's why I love the planning guide idea. But the last thing I would say, don't grow weary. Relational ministry is hard. It's messy because it involves people and people don't messy. In the words of Paul don't grow weary in doing good, because if we persevere, if we continue in good time, we may just reap a harvest. And that harvest may be that one decision where somebody had a bad thought, a bad day, a bad, somebody made a bad decision, and they were on the cusp of moving towards Jesus or away from them. And because of what you did, they found there more aids. They came back to what they knew to be know to be true. And they were saved. And I don't mean just spiritually. I mean, functionally in life. And that's what group ministry does. It is one deposit that helps make one decision clear, I think every day. That's good. Well,
Allen White:
Bill, thank you very much.
Bill Willits:
Appreciate your time, Alan. Great to be with you. Thank you.
Allen White:
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