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Alison Kendrick and Matthew Bivins are nerds with ADHD talking about TTRPGs (and anything else that crosses their minds at any given moment).
Matt: Hi, everybody.
Matt: Matt here starting off the podcast to say that we are incredibly honored to have a brand new
Matt: ADHd20 theme tune composed by Michael Bellar, who I have known since high school and is
Matt: a dear, dear friend.
Matt: He is a world-renowned keyboardist and composer, and you can learn more about him at michaelbellar.com.
Matt: Basically, when the royalty-free music snippet that we were using for ADHd20 suddenly became
Matt: royal, suddenly became
Matt: not free, Michael kindly
Matt: gave us a new original tune
Matt: to start and end this
Matt: show. By the way,
Matt: it's called F***ing Safdies.
Matt: I just wanted to give you a little bit of a warning
Matt: just in case you were afraid suddenly
Matt: that you were listening to the wrong podcast.
Matt: You are not.
Matt: This is ADHd20.
Matt: Please enjoy.
Matt: And once again, thank you, Michael Bellar.
Matt: Oh my god, we're talking about genetics on ADHd20.
Alison: We always are since ADHD is in action.
Alison: Thanks mom and dad.
Matt: Thanks parents.
Matt: Thanks parents.
Alison: Hereditary diseases.
Alison: ADHD and heart disease.
Alison: Thanks genes.
Matt: Oh, God.
Matt: High blood pressure.
Matt: High cholesterol.
Matt: Come on.
Matt: Bring it.
Matt: Let's go.
Alison: Go.
Alison: Go.
Alison: Go.
Matt: Let's do it.
Alison: You have picked a humdinger of a topic for today.
Alison: It is perfection.
Matt: I feel real good about it.
Matt: I feel real good about it.
Matt: We're not going to be talking about an actual trait that's like in the clinical books, but
Matt: it's the feeling that a combination of traits gives us.
Matt: Anyway, enough teasing.
Matt: It's in here.
Alison: Well, but first I wanted to say to you very publicly that in the last couple of weeks, so yes, we've done a lot lately, which is why you haven't heard from us as much and more on that in the topic.
Alison: I just wanted to publicly state how proud I am of you, Matt.
Alison: And here's why.
Alison: It has long been your goal slash dream to con GM.
Alison: This is something you personally have been talking about for a while.
Alison: And you did it.
Alison: And you didn't just do it.
Alison: You did it in one of the hardest configurations to do it possible at the largest TTRPG conference, Gen Con.
Alison: 72,000 nerds together for the sole purpose of tabletop, role-playing games, board games, etc.
Matt: Yes.
Alison: And you GMed not one, not two, but three different systems.
Matt: For 30 different people in the span of three days.
Matt: The three games were Cyberpunk 2077, The Witcher, and Shadow Scar.
Matt: I had a great time.
Matt: I am proud of myself too.
Matt: I worked very, very hard.
Matt: I pushed through insecurities.
Matt: I lucked out because I had the best possible groups of people.
Matt: none of them were hardcore players of any of the games so they didn't know when i was full-on
Matt: fudging the rules yeah that was awesome and then i got to end the entire con playing with my pals
Matt: members of the Pocket Dimension in fact so yeah it was it was a goal post met and you know it's like
Matt: Sometimes we know when we see a mountain that we need to climb and we prepare for that mountain.
Matt: The most amazing thing about the experience for me is I did not wait until the last minute.
Matt: I was so good, y'all.
Matt: You did not.
Matt: I was working.
Matt: I really didn't.
Matt: And I'm glad that I didn't because if I tried to do my usual half-assed night before thing,
Matt: oh, I'd still be bleeding internally or something.
Alison: Yeah.
Matt: That would be horrible.
Matt: I didn't.
Alison: I mean, there was so much impressive to me about the way you handled the entire thing from two years ago saying, I want to do that.
Alison: I want a GM at a con.
Alison: And, you know, kind of knowing that the right moment would come.
Alison: And then when it did and you were presented with a choice, you rose to the occasion.
Alison: You said, sure, I will.
Alison: I will take the three game offering three different systems.
Alison: It wasn't like one system, three modules.
Alison: It was three fully different systems.
Alison: but then watching the way that you prepped, the care that you put into it,
Alison: and for the beauty and enjoyment of other people.
Alison: There was this sense in you of like, I want people to have fun at this table.
Alison: You know, they're traveling far and wide, and I want them to,
Alison: even if it's not their system, I want them to have a good experience,
Alison: and I can give them that.
Alison: As people who don't ordinarily know how to prep, or to your point, start early enough,
Alison: you started early, you prepped often, you built macros,
Alison: You workshopped.
Alison: You asked for feedback.
Alison: I mean, it just, you know, and then you took care of yourself when you needed to, too, while we were at Gen Con, which can be a hard enough thing to do in and of itself when you're staying in a house with six other people and all these other things.
Alison: You were like, I'm going to go to bed.
Alison: I'm going to be quiet.
Alison: I'm so.
Matt: I know.
Matt: It was very unlike me.
Matt: Slam dunk.
Matt: I know.
Matt: When you kept meeting me to bed, I was like, whoa.
Matt: It was weird.
Matt: It was weird.
Matt: But it was delightful.
Matt: And I'm glad I did it.
Matt: I do have a year to think about what I might do next year.
Matt: And I'm going to do that thinking.
Matt: New beginnings.
Matt: So, yes.
Matt: We came home.
Matt: We pushed and pushed.
Matt: I did, at least.
Matt: I know you did, too.
Matt: Pushed and pushed and pushed to reach this goal.
Matt: You know, it was a big, big part.
Matt: I was just telling my friend Seth that I,
Matt: Seth of all trades, by the way,
Matt: former guest of ADHd20.
Matt: All of the trades.
Matt: All.
Matt: All of the trades.
Matt: Every single one.
Matt: Name them.
Matt: Go ahead.
Matt: Try.
Matt: You can't.
Matt: You can't.
Matt: Because there's all of them.
Matt: Yeah, I was telling Seth that because I knew I had a vacation after Gen Con,
Matt: that I pushed even harder than I probably should have.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: I do that a lot.
Matt: And that is not, I want to say, I'm not a doctor.
Matt: I don't think that's healthy.
Matt: I don't think it's mentally good for you.
Matt: I don't know what I do.
Matt: But because I knew I was going to a place with an absolute off-grid situation,
Matt: I think I pushed a little too hard than I should have.
Matt: And that's okay.
Matt: We sprained our souls.
Matt: We do what we do.
Matt: Yeah, I sprained my brain just un poquito.
Matt: And we came back and, you know, of course, real life rushes in, you know, work, jobs, financial areas, health stuff, all that kind of rushes in.
Matt: And then you're like, whoa.
Alison: Yeah, maybe don't take a new job the week before you leave for Gen Con.
Alison: There's my personal advice to everybody else.
Alison: While also working your old jobs.
Matt: was your push that was your push oh my god yeah yeah so we we we've been pushing you know we've
Matt: been pushing ourselves too hard and we've been pushing through pain uh pushed to the brink
Matt: perhaps um and then and then pushing also can imply things like pushing away friends uh getting
Matt: pushed around so it's not just it's not just a forceful thing it's also allowing yourself to be
Matt: pushed which i i do that as well uh so that's what i thought we would talk about today and i know
Matt: again that that that the feeling of pushing or being pushed is not an official diagnostic trait
Matt: of ADHD, but it does feel to me like it's a big part of all of our lives.
Matt: And then my tarot card poll of the day happened in our live stream recording today.
Alison: So well earlier.
Matt: There we are.
Matt: This little card featured in the dagger heart system, which is appropriate, is called Forceful
Matt: Push.
Matt: And it is a domain card.
Matt: Make an attack with your primary weapon against a target within melee range.
Matt: On a success, you deal damage and knock them back to close range.
Matt: On a success with hope, add d6 to your damage roll.
Matt: Pushing.
Matt: And I was like, okay, yeah, that's it.
Matt: That's it.
Alison: Push it real good.
Alison: I feel like that card is goals.
Alison: I feel like we need to get better at that.
Alison: We don't push enough away.
Alison: We let everything into our melee range and stay in our melee range.
Alison: And suddenly we're surrounded and the GM of life known as the universe is spending all of its fear to call in all of its minions at once.
Alison: And now we're surrounded.
Alison: And if we could just learn.
Alison: Forceful push a little bit more back.
Matt: That is exactly right.
Matt: It's exactly right.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: Where do we want to start?
Matt: I asked the Internet.
Matt: I asked the Internet.
Matt: I was just like, I wasn't sure even.
Matt: I know that definitions of ADHD being on the autistic spectrum, other neurodivergent paths are changing, are being adjusted constantly.
Matt: And learning about them is a never-ending journey.
Matt: But I did say, okay, here's what I want to talk about.
Matt: Pushing.
Matt: What actual traits that you might find in the DSM-5?
Matt: would be discussed.
Matt: And so there were some correlations made.
Matt: Number one, impulsivity, of course.
Matt: People with ADHD often act or speak before thinking,
Matt: may interrupt others,
Matt: sometimes have trouble waiting their turn
Matt: in conversations or group settings.
Matt: This can be defined as pushy or overly assertive sometimes.
Matt: I don't know, my case disappearing.
Matt: Did I do that?
Matt: So that's a particular challenge of AKs.
Matt: Not saying that it isn't mine, but it is definitely.
Matt: It's hard, dude.
Matt: I know it is.
Matt: I know it is.
Matt: I know you know, but I feel like the world at large doesn't know.
Alison: Because they do.
Alison: And I think there's some gender conformity that comes into it,
Alison: because I've long known that the way I act,
Alison: had I been born male, I would have been seen as a go-getter.
Alison: I would have been seen as someone who takes no shit.
Alison: But instead, as a woman, there are norms I'm supposed to adhere to.
Alison: Because not only am I a woman with ADHD, which isn't supposed to happen, even though we all now know that ain't right or true.
Alison: But I'm also, as a woman, I'm not even supposed to have this type of ADHD.
Alison: I'm supposed to have the other type.
Alison: I'm supposed to be anxious.
Alison: I'm supposed to be all these other tells of Neurospice.
Matt: You are a freaking mutant.
Alison: I'm a freak.
Alison: But I'm not.
Alison: That's the point.
Matt: No, that's a thing.
Alison: For every little girl out there that got called bossy, and I know I'm in good company there, but it is hard because I feel like a lot of the times I'm not given any leeway.
Alison: And that sucks.
Alison: It feels like, and maybe, you know, there are edge cases of everything, but a lot of the times with impulsive type as a female, it feels like to me, I don't get the benefit of the doubt.
Alison: It is assumed that I am acting this way in a bad way.
Alison: And, you know, it's one of those things where like one of the biggest tales of ADHD that we've learned a lot thanks to TikTok is people with ADHD tend to try and tell you a story about themselves when you're telling them a story about yourself.
Alison: And it's our way of trying to connect it to you.
Alison: I know how you feel.
Alison: Because this thing happened to me.
Alison: and more times than not people who don't have any realm of an early oh there goes Alison try and
Alison: take spotlight again and like in that moment i'm trying to do anything but i'm trying to like oh
Alison: yeah i get how you feel um and i just i i find myself running into that more and more we're like
Alison: i just feel like i don't get the benefit of the doubt sometimes and that sucks so i don't even
Matt: know that it's i don't even know that it's it's the benefit of the doubt i i i feel like it is
Matt: simply something that is so socially unaccepted, quote unquote, unaccepted.
Matt: But more importantly, there is absolutely no one that I know of going out there saying,
Matt: look, let me advocate for this person that is speaking for thinking, interrupting others,
Matt: have trouble waiting in their turn in conversations group settings.
Matt: It's funny to make fun of the stuttering ADHD boy that is late all the time and loses things and all that stuff.
Matt: It's funny.
Matt: That is cute.
Matt: It can be forgiven.
Matt: But being impulsive is no less of a trait than any of those cute things.
Matt: And yet because of the nature of impulsivity as it is seen as attack, it's just impossible for people without ADHD to think, why can't she just stop?
Matt: Why can't she just be quiet?
Matt: And I don't know what to say to them except I do this.
Matt: I say this to them on your behalf over and over and over.
Matt: She cannot not.
Matt: She's certainly not trying to be offensive.
Matt: It is just a part of her every minute.
Matt: Molecular makeup.
Matt: Molecular makeup.
Matt: And because it isn't quote-unquote cute, then it, yeah, you get into trouble more than anything else.
Matt: And I'm sorry about that.
Matt: That does suck.
Matt: I have enough understanding because I have enough impulsivity myself to know.
Matt: And I'm constantly just like, I mean, you watch me.
Matt: I'm just like grabbing my mouth.
Matt: Physically, yeah.
Matt: Because I have to physically stop sometimes.
Matt: But, I mean, there's just nothing you can do.
Matt: And I think if you have somebody in your life that is on the impulsivity train,
Matt: Number one best thing you could possibly do is just start loving them and accepting.
Matt: If they're a good person, you can call it out in a very calm and, you know, kind way.
Matt: But understand that they cannot stop.
Matt: Just like somebody with OCD cannot not see germs that are everywhere.
Matt: Or, you know, I can't be on time all the time.
Matt: I don't know why.
Matt: We have to learn these things and we have to accept them.
Matt: Not just because we have ADHD, but because, look, you have choices.
Matt: Your feelings can get hurt and you can shut that person off.
Matt: Or you can say, wait a minute, that person can't stop.
Matt: But that doesn't mean that their actions are reasons for me to get angry.
Matt: Exactly.
Alison: yeah and yes to everything that you said i can't i'm becoming more and more aware of it
Alison: you know right as i continue on my journey and that's the other big note we're aware we know we
Alison: do it and and if you knew before any social interaction even with my bestest of friends
Alison: that i feel completely comfortable around i give myself pep talks don't hog the conversation let
Alison: other people's beat. Don't talk over people. It's a constant hum up here that I'm doing. And then
Alison: while I'm like, you're doing, you're fucking doing it right now. That's the thing is the ADHD brain
Alison: is having 27 thoughts at once while we're speaking. We're trying, but I think that your point is
Alison: exactly it. I've found very sadly few people willing to give me the level of empathy that you
Alison: and others in my, you know, which is as we get older, how we learn to shed people and keep others
Alison: close right but everybody does something that is off-putting to somebody else i am overlooking
Alison: so many things about so many other people that drive me so and i think that's why i'm getting
Alison: riled up about this because lately i do i feel like i've kind of hit this wall in a lot of ways
Alison: where i'm so hyper aware of my flaws while actively trying like i just feel like i'm always trying to
Alison: fix things but it does sometimes feel like nobody's giving me the benefit of the doubt there and
Alison: And nobody is realizing that the thing that they're doing is driving me just like you and I.
Alison: That's a really good example of like the time blindness versus the impulsive interrupter.
Alison: I know I do it and I know it's frustrating to you.
Alison: Just like you being less aware of time can be frustrating for me.
Alison: But I know you're doing your best and you know I'm doing my best.
Alison: And there is this. I think that's why we're as good of friends as we are, because there is that like I don't ever want you to feel judged for the time blindness thing just because I'm time hyper aware and things like that.
Alison: I don't sit around and think, gee, Matt's doing this to hurt me.
Matt: That's it.
Matt: I mean, that's it.
Matt: Again, it's not about getting away with being a bully carte blanche.
Matt: It's not about that.
Matt: It is about the understanding that you are trying, and it's about the way that you can react.
Matt: It's just the way that we can react to all of these things.
Matt: And, yeah, it's hard.
Matt: I think it's the hardest one.
Matt: I think it's...
Matt: There's so, so, so, so many things
Matt: about your version of ADHD
Matt: that I wish I had.
Matt: God bless.
Matt: And I've said this before,
Matt: but that impulsivity,
Matt: that's not one of them.
Matt: No, no.
Alison: Yeah, sometimes I look at Matt
Alison: and I'm like,
Alison: I wish I could be like that in a meeting.
Alison: I wish I could just sit there
Alison: and listen better than I do.
Alison: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah, it's hard.
Alison: And also to clarify,
Alison: because you just made an excellent point,
Alison: We're not talking about narcissist level sucking all the air out of the room.
Alison: Exactly.
Matt: Yes, we're not.
Matt: This is different.
Matt: This is different.
Matt: This is a mode of communication where you want to communicate, where communication is still on the table.
Matt: It's just hard.
Matt: It's just not a neurotypical response.
Alison: Yeah, and I mean, we can all trace things back to our difficult childhoods.
Alison: We all had a difficult childhood in some way.
Alison: That's what I've learned as an adult.
Alison: You grow up thinking like you were special.
Alison: No, we all had somebody at school or somebody at home or somebody somewhere in our life that, you know, and as an impulsive female, you know, like I was punished for being the way I am, which is then why now I get triggered easily.
Matt: Right.
Alison: But like I think back to like, you know, I did have those couple of special teachers that recognize it's all those memes that it's for those of you who are in the gifted and talented program.
Alison: How's your debilitating anxiety and ADHD treating you now as an adult?
Alison: but like those teachers who did recognize that my outcry in class was not because I was an asshole
Alison: but because I had a lot of energy that just didn't have somewhere to go and and I will say that
Matt: those of you who are listening and and say oh my god that's exactly that's exactly me I I do want
Matt: to say if if that is a particular issue with you it's a challenge with you be like Alison
Matt: in that allow people to come to you and say,
Matt: dude, you pushed that way too far.
Matt: Too far.
Matt: And be okay with, like, accept that.
Matt: Not, again, not, why is that my new word of the day,
Matt: carte blanche?
Matt: You don't, you know, I'm not saying, like,
Matt: don't stick up for yourself, but I'm saying
Matt: have that ability to be talked to to have people come and say you know and voice their frustrations
Matt: and you know those are going to be the people that come to you number one are going to be your
Matt: best friends and you will only be their best friend all the more if you can listen and say
Matt: yeah i'm totally aware of this i'm totally aware of that i understand this is what i meant i
Matt: understand what you meant and like really get down right now what why what did i do
Alison: because it is that like being seen you know level which is a good thing like it's a good
Alison: but it's like yeah yeah i do wish more people would calmly have those conversations with me
Alison: i would be a very different person today if more people in my formative years could have had those
Alison: conversations with me rather than belittling me in the moment rather than getting punished for
Matt: things again that you're struggling to control maybe that's the best way to put it struggling
Matt: to control because again it's yes it is something that you can't control but again i don't want to
Matt: i don't ever want on this podcast for people to say oh yeah they talk about adhd that means it
Matt: can get away with being late all the time that's not no i am struggling to be on time i'm struggling
Alison: to do you know i'm struggling to shut up
Matt: excuse me as I sit here and mop my eyes on you that's okay that's okay that's fine no but it
Alison: it does change everything and we as adults can can easily heal our wounded little inner child
Alison: um but yeah so yeah I'm glad coming out of the gate strong this one you're right it was
Alison: obviously I felt some way about it because I know I just came out of the gate yeah with my feelings
Alison: on it but it it is something that i do as a 43 year old yeah struggle every day with
Alison: oh man i think that's why casey davis like naming her stuff struggle care like that very
Alison: present verb of it like we're actively in the struggle still right we haven't we're not here
Alison: because we figured anything out we're here in in the betwixt in between i don't know if that
Alison: Literally wrote.
Alison: Turn and fall for.
Alison: They don't know anything.
Alison: No.
Speaker 3: I was here for answers.
Speaker 3: I've come here for answers.
Speaker 3: I'm writing it all down.
Matt: Don't write it down.
Matt: It's not going to help you.
Matt: Plus, you won't remember where you put that note next week.
Matt: You'll search for it.
Matt: Aw.
Matt: Anyway.
Matt: Not true for us anymore.
Alison: Our click up is working.
Matt: That's true.
Matt: That's a...
Matt: Celebrate your victory, friends.
Matt: I did celebrate your victories.
Matt: I did just this week say, man, I really, really wish that what you're going through is something that I could tell you as someone older than you is going to just magically disappear when you're my age.
Matt: No, definitely, definitely not.
Matt: But like you said, you get more, you can, you can become more aware.
Matt: And that's, you can become more aware of yourself.
Matt: And that's the best we got.
Matt: That's kind of the best we got.
Matt: But it can be pretty good.
Matt: Another one on the list was emotional dysregulation as far as pushiness.
Matt: ADHD is associated with difficulties in managing strong emotions, which may result in more intense reactions, frustration, or quick escalation to anger.
Alison: It sounds like you're reading like a medication warning label.
Alison: I am.
Alison: ADHD is associated with difficulties in managing strong emotions, which may result in more intense reactions, frustration, or quick escalation to anger.
Alison: In stressful situations, this emotional overflow can appear forceful or aggressive, though the underlying source is difficulty inhibiting the response, not intentional pushiness.
Alison: For questions or concerns, please call your doctor.
Matt: Stop taking ADHD.
Matt: Stop taking ADHD.
Matt: Stop taking ADHD.
Alison: If feelings persist, find a good friend like Matt.
Matt: If you're tired all the time.
Matt: And one more person tells you to take it out.
Matt: Every seven weeks on the clock.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: This one, emotional dysregulation, is where I am putting my concept of pushing away friends
Matt: or feeling pushed around, at least for me.
Matt: It can definitely be anger.
Matt: A lot of time it's frustration.
Matt: And definitely it is, no matter what is the strong emotion, right?
Matt: And so many ways that I inhabit this particular push,
Matt: there's an immediate shutdown.
Matt: I do have a lot of anger, thanks, Dad,
Matt: that I can easily pull out.
Matt: All of those things, and it really can be
Matt: just the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest miscommunication.
Matt: But you go freaking crazy-go-nuts, right?
Matt: Nuclear.
Matt: Nuclear.
Matt: So that's one.
Matt: That's one.
Matt: Being hurt by a friend, but then having the guts or the spoons to then say, okay, hold on.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: So what?
Matt: Let's actually talk about that moment.
Matt: This happens to us in D&D.
Matt: Role playing games a good bit.
Matt: It does happen to us a good bit.
Matt: It happened this past weekend.
Matt: It's happened with our dear friend Fitz.
Alison: Yeah, there's that time.
Matt: Before.
Matt: And it's a human, normal human thing.
Matt: But there's a part of miscommunication that can really push you into the danger zone.
Matt: Quickly.
Matt: So quickly.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: One that we, you know, I think everybody experiences.
Matt: And I think that, again, find your friends.
Matt: Find your friends that you can talk to, period.
Matt: You can be mad at your friends.
Matt: You can...
Matt: You heard it here, folks.
Matt: You know, you're going to be mad at your friends.
Matt: You're allowed.
Matt: You can be mad at your friends.
Matt: You can misunderstand your friends.
Matt: You can even barely speak the same language as your friends.
Matt: But if that friend is willing to sit down and turn on Google Translate and sit with you
Matt: and actually try to figure out what the miscommunication was, why you're doing it.
Matt: I mean, I know for a fact that when I run into somebody who can't do that these days, they can't.
Matt: I don't have time for that friend anymore.
Matt: They will not be a friend to me.
Matt: They will be an acquaintance maybe, but they can't be a friend because that, especially for our brains, that is just.
Matt: We have to work through our own dysregulation of emotions.
Matt: Yeah, I can't work through yours too.
Matt: I can't work through yours too.
Matt: And yes, I'm sorry that if I shut you down for any reason, I'm sorry that I did that.
Matt: But if you can't allow me to come and say, okay, what's up?
Matt: Let's try to get through this.
Matt: Then we're just not going to go because I can't promise you it won't happen again.
Matt: I can't promise you.
Matt: I have strong feelings and I will speak those sometimes and I will misunderstand or all of the stuff.
Alison: Yeah.
Alison: I think at this point we're just kind of like talking through the tells just to give both ourselves and anybody who might be listening and struggling with this,
Alison: out of themselves or a loved one, permission to feel all these feelings.
Matt: Right.
Matt: That's very true.
Matt: And in this one in particular, we haven't really implemented it particularly well.
Matt: But having the understanding, like a stop, step back, check out the situation, maybe take a break.
Matt: I'm going to interrupt you now.
Matt: Go.
Alison: I'm going to be pushy.
Alison: I'm going to be pushy in my love for you now.
Matt: Forceful push.
Alison: There is this expectation that when you talk about something with people that mean something to you that they will fix it and move on.
Alison: And I just don't think that's realistic.
Alison: I think more so it's the we know it's going to happen again and again.
Alison: So how can we best protect all parties involved?
Alison: So we have talked at length about all of us around our own in our own game getting a little bit riled up on both sides of the GM screen.
Alison: Right.
Alison: Right.
Alison: And we to your point, we don't get it right in terms of like avoiding it.
Alison: But, like, I mean, I'll use the one that happened just last week as an example.
Alison: Can you imagine two year ago me in the ending?
Alison: We ended on a cliffhanger.
Alison: It was bad news bears for my character that I've been playing since 2020.
Alison: The very one that we've come on this podcast and talked about being the tool through which I learned what the hell RSD was.
Alison: But, like, the session, like, it was not going the way that I wanted it to.
Alison: I wasn't feeling particularly heard.
Alison: Matt and I talked about all these because, guess what?
Alison: I was doing things that wasn't making that feel particularly heard.
Matt: Right.
Alison: And we did, but, like, I wasn't angry at the end of the session.
Alison: I didn't need to employ our safe word.
Alison: I wasn't, like, firing off.
Alison: And then you and I did talk about it immediately after, which we didn't have to do, but I hope we both felt better doing.
Alison: But, like, that is a very different look than when things like that happened in the past where it was, like, we did walk away angry.
Alison: We did carry those hurt feelings from the table into our personal lives.
Alison: So I think progress has been made.
Alison: And that's what we're all learning to do here is the notion of progress over perfection.
Alison: We're not going to stop the train, but we can at least stand on the platform for a minute at the station and decide whether or not we want to get on it.
Alison: I don't know if this analogy makes any sense outside of my head.
Alison: Sure.
Matt: I mean, it sounded great.
Matt: It sounded real deep.
Matt: A plus.
Alison: Yeah.
Alison: Prank is coming sometimes.
Alison: You can't stop it.
Alison: But like because emotional dysregulation is something I grew up with.
Alison: Like again, we all did.
Alison: But you know, like I really was the black sheep of the family in that regard.
Alison: Like I was very different.
Alison: The way that I displayed emotion, it was made very clear to me from a very young age was unlike the way that anybody else in my family did.
Alison: And that may be a generational thing.
Alison: That may be a neuro-spicy thing.
Alison: I don't know.
Alison: So that's, you know, everything that you wrote here makes sense to me, but like give yourself that credit for marching on forward with it sometimes.
Alison: Exactly.
Alison: Yeah.
Alison: And to the point of this episode, which is about pushing yourself.
Alison: I think that's one thing you and I are learning to do, though, is to say I'm in an emotionally dysregulated state.
Alison: I can't have that conversation right now.
Alison: I can't take that step forward.
Alison: I need to go to a quiet place right now.
Alison: Mm hmm.
Alison: You know what I mean?
Alison: And you and I are both getting a lot better about doing that.
Matt: I absolutely agree.
Matt: And to the point where it makes me wonder why it was so hard for me.
Matt: But I think that the next bullet point in the thing kind of touches on that.
Matt: I've included social challenges as being a potentially pushy situation.
Matt: Difficulty reading, social cues, a tendency to speak out of turn or monopolize conversation may also be interpreted as pushiness.
Matt: This is typically a result of the neurodevelopmental aspects of ADHD rather than a personality trait.
Matt: And all of that's well and good.
Matt: We've already kind of touched on that.
Matt: But I would like to kind of push it into the direction more of why have we felt FOMO?
Matt: I think that's a part of it.
Matt: I think that sometimes we are purely driven by feelings of missing out.
Matt: Why?
Matt: I can't tell you how amazing it makes me feel for you to say that you were proud of me for going to bed earlier.
Matt: Because I could hear the fun happening as I was falling asleep building macros for the game that I didn't understand the next day.
Matt: And I knew that there was laughter and gaiety.
Matt: And I was just not there.
Matt: And I was like, I'm not going to see these people in the flesh for months, if not another year.
Matt: I should be out there.
Matt: But I didn't because I think it's also, so really, honestly, social challenges, sure.
Matt: I think this also kind of butts up against an inability to prioritize things as well sometimes.
Matt: Sometimes you, this is something that my wife has taught me, it is okay to go to a party full of some friends, some strangers, and sit there and talk to your wife that you dragged to a party.
Matt: Right?
Matt: Okay.
Matt: Because, like, I have this mode where I go to a party and I feel like I have to be on.
Matt: I have to work the room.
Matt: I have to do that.
Matt: That's all well and good if I'm by myself and I have no one else.
Matt: Or if I'm not, you know, I have no other purpose than to do that.
Matt: That's fine.
Matt: But when I'm there with somebody who is absolutely fine not talking to anyone ever, and that person that I'm with is more important than anybody at the party, then why do I push?
Matt: Why do I do that to myself and her?
Matt: Why?
Matt: And I think that's a large number of things, but it's misreading her social cues.
Matt: It's misreading the situation.
Matt: It's also just worrying about what other people think about us too.
Matt: Like worrying about that.
Matt: And luckily, luckily, that most definitely so far goes away more and more and more as you get older.
Matt: But it's still there.
Matt: It's still there.
Matt: So, yeah, I think that's kind of what I'm, that's where I'm going to put that part of the push.
Matt: Do you have anything to add to that?
Alison: The thing that keeps coming to my mind and the thing that I think I'm personally working through right now is there is some part of my brain that thinks just because something is the way that it is, that is the way it will always be.
Alison: And that is the catastrophizing side of me.
Alison: We're in a fight right now, so this person must hate me forever.
Alison: And what having good friends like you and Evan and Fitz has taught me in my life.
Alison: So this all goes back to the, like, find your people, right?
Alison: Like, find your found family.
Alison: And so many of my other friends that are listening to this podcast, like Megan and Lori and Taryn.
Alison: Like, when you find your people, like, and begin to heal those wounds, because that's all really any of this is, is some kind of healing, you know, some way.
Alison: But like you learn that like it, no, it won't always be this way.
Alison: Chucklehead, it's this way for this afternoon.
Alison: And like tomorrow, to your point earlier, you probably are going to wake up and get to have a conversation with that person.
Alison: They will give you some context that will help you understand why they were acting the way they were acting.
Alison: You will get the chance to give them the context that you need so they understand why you are acting the way you are acting.
Alison: And you're both going to have this conversation.
Alison: And so a part of my spiritual woo-woo journey, right, has been this my brain defaults to worst case scenario.
Alison: I know this about myself.
Alison: I hate it about myself.
Alison: It is the thing that I am most actively working every single day to change.
Alison: But it's what we've talked about on this.
Alison: The second you say, hey, Alison, you got a minute?
Alison: I go, Matt's mad at me.
Alison: He's going to yell at me.
Alison: And so Matt has learned by being my friend to say, oh, I have really good news I want to share with you.
Alison: Can we chat, you know, after work?
Alison: Yeah.
Alison: And then I give you a compliment sandwich.
Alison: Yeah, the compliment sandwich or like, hey, yeah, something did go kind of awry yesterday. Do you have a minute to talk about it? But like coming at me in a way that I know it's going to be a constructive conversation and not Matt yelling at me. Right. Yeah. But we do. I do. And I don't know if anybody else is listening to this. I default to worst case scenario. And so my spiritual journey has been about recognizing when I do that and then asking the question. OK, so that's the worst that's going to happen. What's the best that's going to happen?
Alison: And then lately, the mode, the node that I've settled into is like, look at the history.
Alison: Look at all of the times you felt like Matt was mad at you and all of the times you and Matt kept being friends.
Alison: Look at all the times you feel like you annoyed somebody and all the times that you guys laughed.
Alison: You had inside jokes.
Alison: You went on adventures.
Alison: That's my social challenge is what I'm trying to plug this into.
Alison: That's my difficulty connecting with other people because in my head, I'm worrying on this person now hates me.
Alison: This person is going to decide because there was a time in my life where people did tell me I was too much, where people did walk out of my life, where I wasn't the right kind of someone to be.
Alison: And that made a lasting imprint on my interpersonal relationships.
Alison: And I had to heal that.
Alison: I had to heal that.
Alison: I couldn't put that on anybody else to heal it for me.
Alison: I had to do it.
Alison: And it's been a very long process.
Alison: I'm still working on it.
Alison: But at least, again, it's the train metaphor all over again.
Alison: Analogy metaphor, I always mix those up, of like, I can't stop it, but at least I can recognize it.
Alison: And this does, like, but again, to tie back into the topic of, like, pushing, like, that's where I have to push the hardest.
Alison: And a lot of times, unfortunately, these situations happen when I'm already at my lowest, when I'm already depleted and stressed out.
Alison: You know, and so it's like, how do I push that?
Alison: Or do I just give in and go to bed and just trust that it's going to be OK tomorrow?
Alison: Which I had to do a little bit of at Gen Con.
Alison: Like I was having the same level of FOMO because I was like, I'm just going to put myself in bed because nothing good is going to come out of me staying up later.
Matt: Yep.
Matt: I love that. I love that. That explanation. I moved one bullet point up because I think RSD is also intertwined in all of this, the social challenges and the other bits and bobs of like what we worry about people thinking about us, what we do to avoid that.
Matt: feeling even you were always told you know there here's the loud one and i was always the nerd
Matt: and so after a while you start believing that and then you go in with a with dukes up all the time
Alison: too that we're really deep in this conversation today and i love it for the record um there is
Alison: The other thing I do want to just call out, because this is ADHd20, this is the show that we inspect the intersection of ADHD and TDRVGs, right?
Alison: Right.
Alison: Which we didn't even say at the beginning.
Alison: They may know at this point.
Alison: We've gotten so comfortable here, and you have too, that you know why you're here.
Matt: But there is a crossover here.
Alison: I'm saying this now so we can earmark it for a future episode.
Alison: Difficulty reading social cues and a tendency to speak out of turn or monopolize conversation may also be interpreted as pushiness.
Alison: I wonder if the reason that Daggerheart is my game is the lack of initiative.
Alison: Because for those of you who do not play TTRPGs.
Alison: Tell more.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: Say more.
Alison: You know, like in D&D, when it comes time to fight or have any kind of encounter, really, everybody rolls initiative.
Alison: So everybody rolls their d20 and then high to low, you start going and everybody takes a turn.
Alison: Daggerheart is not neat and tidy like that.
Alison: It functions more like real life, beat to beat.
Alison: Who's ready to go?
Alison: Who has something to do?
Alison: And the most common question I get asked is, like, how do you manage that?
Alison: Why wouldn't I just let my warrior just hit over and over again?
Alison: But there are people who are nervous about Daggerheart because of that lack of initiative.
Alison: And so I have to learn to, like, make sure that they feel seen, heard, and understood.
Alison: But I wonder if the reason that I slash we all gravitated to it was that, like, beat to beat.
Alison: It is impulsive.
Alison: We've long joked that it's the TTRPG for and by the theater kids.
Alison: Maybe it's also the TTRPG for and by the Neurospicy.
Alison: And maybe that's why it feels like ours so much.
Alison: It literally is for us.
Matt: Yeah, that element for sure.
Matt: the easier mechanics.
Matt: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Matt: But we don't have problems.
Matt: Yeah, exactly.
Matt: We don't have problems saying,
Matt: oh, I'll go.
Matt: I'll go next.
Matt: I'm not going to wait until the last person in line,
Matt: at least anymore.
Matt: God, I remember...
Matt: It was so cool in elementary high school
Matt: to be the one who never, ever went first.
Matt: It was so cool.
Matt: The cool kids would never say,
Matt: yeah, okay, I'll go.
Matt: And so I did it every time
Matt: because I had this like sick,
Matt: masochistic, yeah, yeah.
Matt: I would just say, okay, fine.
Matt: Like I would give it a beat,
Matt: hoping somebody for once would go first
Matt: so that I didn't have to, but I knew.
Matt: I was like, you idiots.
Matt: And I would say, okay, let's go, I'll go.
Matt: Where was your seat on the bus?
Matt: Weird.
Matt: Where would I sit on the bus?
Matt: I would try to get in the back,
Matt: but you've got to know, you've got to, like,
Matt: the problem at the back is you have to walk through
Matt: the entire bus, which means there's that many more chances
Matt: for people to make fun of you.
Matt: So a lot of times I would, you know, and of course the fun, fun, fun thing is to put your leg out and trip the nerd.
Matt: Play trip the nerd.
Matt: So fun.
Matt: I mean, I ask this.
Alison: We didn't have a bus to school because I went, I lived in this very affluent.
Alison: Most of the women didn't work.
Alison: And so carpool was the thing to do.
Alison: The carpool moms.
Alison: Right.
Alison: But I did take the bus from the junior high school to the high school for band because I joined the marching band with two years left at junior high.
Alison: Nerd.
Alison: So my bus experience was with the band.
Alison: So I was like, the cool kids of the band were the Vacquas.
Matt: Yeah, I know.
Matt: I know.
Matt: Yes.
Matt: Queen of the Nerds.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah, I remember the king and queens of the nerds.
Matt: And I was definitely not one of them either.
Matt: bless i'm not trying to be depressing i promise but i am saying it's real okay let's move on
Matt: we're healing we're not we're not solving but we're healing we're not again we're not solving
Matt: anything we need we need therapy and therefore this is what we're doing i did just get this from
Matt: my adhd coach britney smith also a guest this is why i switched this hyper focus obviously
Matt: hyperfocus is an ADHD trait that is obviously pushing through and it's pushing through common
Matt: sense right like it's not it's not the flow state right it's not the flow state that's so good
Matt: I actually came up with that on my own I know AI no AI okay it's just I that's the way I that's
Matt: way I see it.
Matt: Do you know what I think you did?
Matt: What did I do?
Alison: So the big question of this
Alison: episode, the forceful
Alison: push, why do we push so hard
Alison: sometimes? You're asking the question,
Alison: right? I think you answered
Alison: the question in this final
Alison: bullet. Hyperfocus is why
Alison: we push so hard. We
Alison: get tunnel vision
Alison: and I can't see
Alison: here
Alison: Understand, interpret, take on.
Alison: When I am locked onto something, that is all.
Alison: And I will do it to my own detriment.
Alison: And you do it too.
Alison: Both Matt and Lister.
Matt: I wanted to end with this one, Matt and Lister.
Matt: I wanted to put this one last because we started this episode talking about how proud of each other we were.
Matt: And I am very proud that I didn't wait to the last minute, that I didn't cram in prepping for Gen Con, but I also need to be honest with myself and say that there were moments of prepping for Gen Con that were not necessary, that were not healthy, and did not make any common sense.
Matt: And Brittany wrote, there's also a backlash when we push ourselves too hard to do something too long and hard to do something with no intrinsic motivation behind it.
Matt: We push ourselves too hard to do something too long.
Matt: And then also to do that thing with no intrinsic motivation behind it.
Matt: And that is through common sense in my mind.
Matt: That's so, so hard. I feel like that's one of my biggest pitfalls. And it is the most misunderstood. Because if I were to go to a boss that was paying me a yearly salary and show hours spent, I would be worth my weight and gold.
Matt: But that doesn't mean it's good work, meaningful work.
Matt: That doesn't mean it's valuable work.
Matt: And that can become a very bad feeling because what is the end result of that?
Matt: Well, for me right now, just on the cusp of burnout.
Matt: I just pushed too hard, broke my brain a little bit.
Matt: I have to force myself.
Matt: Now I'm going to have to force myself to recover.
Matt: It didn't have to happen.
Matt: Same.
Matt: Yeah.
Matt: So interesting.
Matt: So watch out for that one, too, you pushers.
Matt: A long, long time ago.
Alison: Pushers.
Speaker 3: A long, long time.
Alison: Like, probably around season two of ADHd20, I revealed a question that I often try and ask myself when I feel myself spinning into one of these little emotionally dysregulated moments that I find myself in so often.
Alison: is who told you that?
Alison: And like, if you can't find the immediate answer,
Alison: it's all pointing back at yourself, right?
Alison: And I have to wonder if there's something in that
Alison: for the NeuroSpicy brain
Alison: that we don't even consider that as a question.
Alison: So we just take off running without,
Alison: like, nobody told me that I had to be perfect at this.
Alison: Nobody told me that, you know,
Alison: like all of this self-pressure that we put on ourselves
Alison: because we don't, I have to wonder
Alison: if maybe neurotypical brains do ask that question
Alison: earlier in a process.
Alison: Did anybody tell me that?
Alison: It seems like they do.
Matt: It seems like they do.
Alison: It does seem like they do.
Alison: Neurotypical's listening to this podcast.
Matt: Please weigh in.
Matt: Confirm or deny.
Matt: We don't actually know,
Matt: but it seems like they have that regulator built in.
Alison: Joke's on us because there's nobody neurotypical
Alison: in this podcast.
Matt: Joke's on us because there's nobody neurotypical.
Alison: There's nobody neurotypical.
Alison: Copy print.
Alison: We solved it.
Alison: That's the way it is.
Matt: That is so interesting.
Matt: And let me tie it back to games again.
Matt: There's something called the Forever GM, right?
Matt: Actually, Matthew Colville, one of the most respected brains in the TTRPG world, uses that phrase as a derogatory moniker.
Matt: I have never thought of it as being one.
Matt: The definition basically is the Forever GM is the person in a group, when you first start
Matt: playing a role-playing game, that steps up to the challenge.
Matt: The challenge of being a game master.
Matt: And let me assure you, it is quite a challenge.
Matt: It is a, I wouldn't say thankless job, but based on the amount of work necessary.
Matt: I mean based on the fact that players just waltz in
Speaker 3: I love my character
Speaker 3: it's never gonna die
Speaker 3: I get to do whatever I want
Speaker 3: and the game master
Matt: and all the game master has spent
Matt: freaking hours
Matt: preparing things
Matt: and yeah maybe you're a lazy DM
Matt: and you don't have to prep
Matt: and you're good with that
Matt: that's fine
Matt: but you have still thought about it
Matt: - I've still thought about it.
Matt: - I promise you.
Matt: - You've still done the work at one point.
Matt: It is still a jai-freaking-normous amount of work.
Matt: And that's why anybody that could put two words
Matt: in front of each other often can go to a convention
Matt: and be a GM.
Matt: Not to belittle what we did,
Matt: but I didn't want to be just a fast GM.
Matt: I want to be, to me, Forever GM means
Matt: I want... That's just the role that spoke to me.
Matt: I just wanted to do that more.
Matt: However, there is actually a part of Matthew Colville's definition, which is the person
Matt: in the group that then becomes the GM and there isn't anybody else stepping up to take
Matt: that role.
Matt: It becomes very easy when you start a campaign and you say, "I would love to be the GM.
Matt: That's my favorite thing to do."
Matt: And then you do it and you become unaware.
Matt: You start eventually pushing through some common sense and you never ever step back.
Matt: And you never take the time to kind of look at where you are.
Matt: one of the things that I'm kind of in the realm of this week after Gen Con is that, thankfully,
Matt: my friend Alison here left Gen Con going, "Hmm, I wonder if I could run a campaign."
Matt: Just in the same time I realized, "Holy shit, maybe I should take a little break.
Matt: Maybe I should take a little break and not always be the GM right now."
Matt: And I'm talking about campaign work.
Matt: I'm talking about like big, long stories being told, beautiful things.
Matt: And I don't know yet.
Matt: I honestly don't know yet.
Matt: Because I immediately upon saying that, I got sad.
Matt: Because I was like, oh, but that's my favorite thing.
Matt: But again, is it common sense?
Matt: Am I pushing?
Matt: I don't know.
Matt: But I think so.
Matt: I think I am.
Matt: I think I'm just, I'm pushing and pushing and pushing.
Matt: And I think it's time for me to go, oh, bucket list checked.
Matt: Let me just breathe for a minute, a month, two months, six months.
Matt: I don't know.
Matt: Dream it up again.
Matt: So, yeah, I think it applies to so many parts of our lives.
Matt: It was something that we don't even know about.
Alison: Well, the fact that we're even questioning, do we push too hard?
Alison: Like, that's our, like, because there were the time when we wouldn't even, we would have just been exhausted and cranky.
Alison: Am I so exhausted and cranky?
Alison: Because you're pushing too hard.
Alison: So at least we are stopping the train yet, but we are recognizing.
Alison: We hear the whistle blowing, and we know what that means.
Alison: And I will yes and absolutely everything you say
Alison: and speak to the demographic in our audience listening to this right now
Alison: that is wondering, hmm, are TTRPGs worth me trying out?
Alison: Our answer is emphatically yes.
Alison: But go ahead and take this bit of unsolicited advice
Alison: from me and Matt right now,
Alison: And for anybody currently playing a TTRPG as well,
Alison: I think every single player needs to GM,
Alison: not for a campaign, but for some period of time,
Alison: because there is just something you are never,
Alison: some things, plural,
Alison: you're never going to understand as a player until you GM.
Alison: It's going to make you a softer player in a good way,
Alison: meaning more malleable and able to work with others in your party
Alison: if you would please GM.
Alison: GMs, please take a break and be a player,
Alison: Because there are certain things you can't understand when you're always sitting on your side of the DM screen.
Alison: And I think that's something that we tend to try and put ourselves in boxes and labels of I am a player, I am a GM.
Alison: And I am here begging you as somebody who was that girl but a short time ago.
Alison: I do not want a GM.
Alison: I have no interest in it.
Alison: And part of that was because I don't like doing things that I'm bad at.
Alison: And to be a good GM, you have to be a bad GM first.
Matt: You do.
Alison: You do.
Alison: I'm sorry. You have to suck at some sessions.
Alison: You have to play with good friends who are just going to be willing to be patient with you while you figure your stuff out.
Alison: I think that's really well said.
Alison: I agree with you. That was great.
Matt: Of course it is. I will add to it. I will add one last thing.
Matt: I can't wait to see how you feel about campaign being a game master for a campaign.
Matt: And having to keep that in your brain.
Matt: I'm excited for you.
Matt: Very excited.
Matt: I'm excited to play because I'm going to be playing.
Matt: But I want, I really look forward to the things that you're going to learn about yourself and your ability.
Matt: Because it's another hole.
Alison: It really, really is.
Alison: And I've run enough sessions to know the debilitating feeling when you have put your heart and energy into something.
Alison: And your players just come in and not to be mean, but just shit all over it in some way.
Alison: Whether they either find a way to break it or just take it in a direction you never foresaw coming.
Matt: or start yawning or, yeah, all of you.
Alison: Don't ever let it,
Alison: because I've gotten the pleasure through our Patreon
Alison: as well as through our kind of like home games
Alison: to play with amazing people that I love very much
Alison: had my soul crushed by you.
Alison: I'm just going to come out and say it.
Alison: If you're listening to this and you've played a game with me,
Alison: you may well have been at one of those tables
Alison: where I just went,
Alison: it's the Nathan Fillion gif that I feel
Alison: intrinsically in my soul as a GM.
Alison: That hurt.
Alison: But part of me wishes that like more tables would do the rotating GM thing.
Alison: And again, if there's somebody at your table who prefers to be the GM, let them be the GM 60, 75 percent of the time.
Alison: Don't let them push themselves so much that it hurts.
Alison: Right.
Alison: You know, and so I just I think that that would be the better way forward for a lot of tables.
Alison: So everybody just kind of understands everybody else's place and then is just that much more soft and empathetic to what they might be going through.
Alison: I just think it's going to make everybody better.
Alison: So.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Alison: All right.
Alison: Well, we did it.
Alison: We fixed everything.
Alison: Good talk, everybody.
Alison: We really fixed everything this time.
Matt: We really did.
Matt: Good job.
Matt: Thank you always, Alison, for being a part of my therapy.
Alison: It's a good therapy session.
Alison: It's a great one.
Alison: ADHd20 is brought to you by The Pocket Dimension,
Alison: created by Matthew Bivens, Alison Kendrick, Evan Bivens, and Anna Fitzgerald.
Matt: Our Discord community is where neurodivergent minds and tabletop adventures collide.
Matt: And it's open to everybody.
Matt: We would love for you to be a part of it.
Matt: You'll find the link in our show notes.
Alison: Want early access and exclusive content?
Alison: Join us on Patreon, where you can even play in monthly games with us.
Matt: But the best way to support us is to share ADHd20 with someone who would love it.
Alison: Thanks for listening.
Matt: And we'll see you in the Pocket Dimension.