Rodney To

We talk to star of stage and screen, Rodney To!

Show Notes

Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.
Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.
Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech,  getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ

2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand

2 (15s):
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (30s):
How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your

1 (35s):
New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,

2 (39s):
Congratulations.

1 (40s):
Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.

1 (1m 20s):
Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.

2 (1m 29s):
They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,

1 (1m 31s):
Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.

1 (2m 25s):
And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.

1 (3m 6s):
I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.

2 (3m 10s):
Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?

2 (3m 52s):
You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.

1 (3m 57s):
That's amazing. Super.

2 (4m 0s):
So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,

1 (4m 11s):
I was there,

2 (4m 13s):
Fyi. Yes, you were

1 (4m 15s):
The first one, right? For your first one.

2 (4m 16s):
The first one.

1 (4m 18s):
Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.

2 (4m 50s):
Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.

2 (5m 30s):
That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.

1 (6m 8s):
Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.

1 (6m 50s):
I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked

2 (7m 15s):
It could've worked it

1 (7m 17s):
All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.

2 (7m 35s):
Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.

2 (8m 16s):
And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.

1 (8m 21s):
And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.

1 (9m 14s):
And done. What about you? What about you?

2 (9m 17s):
I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,

1 (9m 52s):
So Right.

2 (9m 53s):
They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.

2 (10m 33s):
Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.

2 (11m 20s):
I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got

1 (11m 51s):
That job because of

2 (11m 52s):
The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.

2 (12m 34s):
Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless

1 (12m 58s):
To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.

1 (13m 39s):
Period. You're so

2 (13m 41s):
To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.

1 (14m 20s):
No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.

2 (14m 56s):
Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.

1 (15m 35s):
And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,

2 (15m 48s):
This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.

1 (16m 29s):
I've never,

2 (16m 30s):
Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's

1 (16m 50s):
So cool.

2 (16m 51s):
Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,

1 (17m 7s):
The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.

1 (17m 47s):
It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.

1 (18m 29s):
I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.

1 (19m 13s):
That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.

1 (19m 53s):
So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.

2 (20m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.

2 (20m 56s):
And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.

2 (21m 37s):
You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.

2 (22m 18s):
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.

1 (22m 34s):
Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.

1 (23m 15s):
It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.

1 (23m 57s):
That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,

2 (24m 9s):
Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.

1 (24m 25s):
Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.

1 (25m 8s):
That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.

2 (25m 35s):
Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.

3 (26m 8s):
Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?

2 (26m 11s):
Yes, you sound great. You sound

1 (26m 13s):
Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a

2 (26m 17s):
Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.

3 (26m 28s):
Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was

2 (26m 31s):
It usc? Did you go to

3 (26m 32s):
Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So

1 (26m 36s):
We just assumed you went there, but where did you go

3 (26m 38s):
To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?

1 (26m 46s):
In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So

3 (26m 48s):
Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well

1 (26m 53s):
I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,

3 (26m 58s):
Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What

1 (27m 1s):
The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.

3 (27m 7s):
Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.

1 (27m 15s):
Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.

3 (27m 20s):
Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh

1 (27m 24s):
My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,

3 (27m 28s):
It's

1 (27m 28s):
Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these

3 (27m 34s):
Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together

1 (28m 4s):
That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,

3 (28m 34s):
What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,

1 (28m 54s):
In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,

3 (29m 4s):
Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.

1 (29m 7s):
Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,

3 (29m 13s):
There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.

1 (29m 43s):
This,

2 (29m 44s):
And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,

3 (30m 4s):
You

2 (30m 4s):
Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.

3 (30m 10s):
So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.

3 (30m 52s):
Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I

1 (30m 54s):
Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.

3 (30m 56s):
And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,

1 (30m 60s):
I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name

3 (31m 7s):
At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a

1 (31m 15s):
While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.

3 (31m 18s):
Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.

1 (31m 59s):
Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?

3 (32m 19s):
So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,

1 (32m 43s):
You're a hilarious Jesuit.

3 (32m 45s):
Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,

1 (33m 12s):
What the fuck is that?

3 (33m 14s):
Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.

3 (33m 55s):
And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I

1 (33m 60s):
Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so

3 (34m 4s):
Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're

1 (34m 20s):
Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.

3 (34m 23s):
Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,

1 (34m 39s):
I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so

3 (34m 51s):
Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge

1 (35m 18s):
Theater. Fyi. Right,

3 (35m 20s):
Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.

3 (36m 3s):
Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,

1 (36m 21s):
Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things

3 (36m 50s):
Gut, Yeah. Never

1 (36m 51s):
Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change

3 (37m 2s):
Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,

2 (37m 16s):
Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you

3 (37m 44s):
Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.

1 (38m 12s):
Super white. Super white. Yeah.

3 (38m 14s):
So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and

1 (38m 37s):
Talented,

3 (38m 38s):
You couldn't,

1 (38m 39s):
You

3 (38m 39s):
Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,

1 (39m 12s):
Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.

1 (39m 58s):
I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?

3 (40m 23s):
It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,

1 (40m 32s):
Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?

3 (40m 54s):
So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.

3 (41m 34s):
I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.

3 (42m 18s):
I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.

1 (42m 24s):
They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,

3 (42m 29s):
Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.

1 (42m 42s):
Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent

3 (42m 45s):
Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,

1 (42m 53s):
Rodney,

3 (42m 55s):
Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?

1 (42m 57s):
I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,

3 (42m 59s):
Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.

1 (43m 2s):
Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?

3 (43m 8s):
I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.

1 (43m 11s):
Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.

3 (43m 17s):
Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.

1 (43m 25s):
Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.

3 (43m 35s):
I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,

1 (43m 47s):
We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.

3 (43m 52s):
And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So

1 (43m 55s):
You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3 (43m 57s):
Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at

1 (44m 12s):
Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,

3 (44m 15s):
I'm sorry, what was that?

1 (44m 16s):
R i p, Victory Gardens.

3 (44m 17s):
Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,

1 (44m 30s):
Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,

3 (44m 38s):
It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.

3 (45m 19s):
I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went

1 (45m 32s):
To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,

2 (46m 9s):
Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.

3 (46m 29s):
Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That

2 (46m 53s):
Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.

3 (47m 8s):
Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.

1 (47m 18s):
The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.

3 (47m 36s):
Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.

1 (47m 42s):
Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.

1 (48m 25s):
Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,

3 (48m 35s):
That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,

1 (48m 46s):
I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it

3 (48m 50s):
Was because they're in.

1 (48m 51s):
Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And

3 (49m 3s):
This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,

1 (49m 7s):
Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.

3 (49m 11s):
No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.

3 (49m 53s):
But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I

1 (50m 11s):
Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and

3 (50m 20s):
Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that

1 (50m 43s):
Of an

2 (50m 45s):
Yeah know?

3 (50m 46s):
I mean,

2 (50m 47s):
So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing

3 (50m 55s):
Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.

2 (51m 19s):
Yeah.

1 (51m 20s):
We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,

2 (51m 23s):
Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.

3 (51m 26s):
He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.

2 (51m 30s):
That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?

2 (52m 14s):
Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?

3 (52m 18s):
Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?

3 (53m 2s):
We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.

3 (53m 43s):
You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.

3 (54m 23s):
And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.

2 (54m 31s):
Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?

3 (55m 3s):
I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.

3 (55m 43s):
And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from

1 (56m 25s):
The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.

1 (57m 6s):
And I'm

3 (57m 7s):
Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.

2 (57m 12s):
Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of

1 (57m 16s):
Our, you

3 (57m 17s):
Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,

1 (57m 38s):
Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,

3 (57m 42s):
You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.

1 (58m 14s):
We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.

1 (58m 57s):
So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.

3 (59m 1s):
Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.

3 (59m 45s):
Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.

1 (1h 0m 6s):
How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For

3 (1h 0m 10s):
Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it

1 (1h 0m 18s):
Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you

3 (1h 0m 23s):
Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.

1 (1h 0m 25s):
Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super

3 (1h 0m 36s):
Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.

3 (1h 1m 17s):
It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to look at me as an adult. That's when I got

2 (1h 1m 28s):
You, you had to step into your own understanding that you were fully competent so that you could then broadcast that to everybody else. Beautiful. Yeah. I'm really curious how all of your growth and maturation and your understanding of like one example of the way that people were teaching theater and acting at a certain point in time. I'm really curious, like what have you brought into your mission at usc? What have you wanted to see improve? What have you wanted to keep? What, what have you been able to bring to, to the curriculum that's, you know, uniquely you and what changes, if any, have you been able to make

3 (1h 2m 4s):
Sure, I mean, it's sort of threefold right off the bat. Like the first thing is, you know, they brought me in and I love working at usc. It made, it's so strange. I did not think I wanted to be a professor. I shot a pilot at the time when I got the offer in 20 18, 27, 20 18 I think it was. And all systems go for it to, to, to shoot. And we were gonna move to New York back to New York to shoot it. And then it got pulled from the, it got pulled from the schedule, the lineup. And, and I was back to sort of, you know, back to square one. And I, I don't really mean that literally, but that being said, this offer came at the dean at the time at USC was like, we want working professionals to come in and teach very specific, a very specific class.

3 (1h 2m 49s):
And so I, you know, I met with them and I, I was like, okay, I'll teach one class and then, you know, you know, I was i'll, I'll be the first to admit, I was like, Oh, this might be just a bookmark job. And then I got in there and I was like, I, I fell in love with it and not necessarily just the SDA department, but I fell in love with the fact that all of a sudden, like I became, that I became the, the, honestly I became the Asian professor and I realized in that moment like that for my first semester, I never had an Asian professor that in, in the arts ever. And it, all of a sudden I went from teaching one class and the next class I had, I would say 50% of my class, my students were, were Asian American. Cuz they heard about this guy, right?

3 (1h 3m 30s):
The guy who played Typhoon is teaching at usc. So all of a sudden now, and then like subsequently my classes, I became that guy and Asians were like, coming to Filipinos, especially specifically are like, I never had a Filipino professor. I never thought it could happen. So I, I wear that as a badge of honor. It's something that I'm like, I won't let, I won't give this up because the opportunities people are now seeing themselves in, in somebody like me and in a position that I have. So there's that. And then, you know, I always, my first day of classes, one of the first things that comes outta my mouth is whatever class I teach is, I don't, you're no longer a student to me. These are colleagues in training, right?

3 (1h 4m 10s):
So like for me, I I I treat them as such. I'm not here to treat them like babies. I'm not the kind of professor who's like, okay, let's check off attendance. You know, I'm not about like, I'm not about like turning your assignments and then you get it tomorrow with a grade on it. I'm very organic in the sense that like, that's what I wanna set. Like you said, Jen, like I wanna set my students up for success the way I wish I was set up for success. And every, it is not prescriptive. We know that what we do is not prescriptive. We could easily make it prescriptive. And, and that is, that is literally pulling the rug from underneath most of our, our an artist. And so I go in and holistically like work with every student to make sure that they, what makes them special, what makes them unique, their foundation is strong and that's gonna be different than every other student.

3 (1h 4m 56s):
So that to me is how I go about it. And, and for better or for worse, it's one of those things that I, I just, I love making sure that my students, whether they do this or not is not the, is not the point. Whether they, when they come out of here that they, they know what makes their artistry great. And then if they can do that, then God speed whatever happens that makes happen. But again, like I don't go in there being like, we're going to teach this philosophy and here's how you do it. And you know, everyone's body's different, right? So even, even our diaphragms, right? Our, and that to me is something like, I, I'm very conscientious of it because I, again, no one, I was working under a Eurocentric cis supremacist sort of theater philosophy and it for so many years I was like, Oh, this is how I am supposed to be in the world.

3 (1h 5m 47s):
And then all of a sudden someone's looking at me like, Dude, you're Asian and five foot five, like, you're never going to play Willie Lowman, right? Like, so, and it again, it was like, but then it was like, that's all I thought about for so long is I'm going to play that. I'm going to play this, or I I should strive to only play that.

1 (1h 6m 7s):
Okay. So I feel like when people say, Sorry to interrupt Rodney, but like, I wanna ask you a question. So are you teaching non-majors major? Who are your students?

3 (1h 6m 18s):
What I'm, I only work with majors. So like I work with, I work with all of the programs. So I teach in the BA program, the BFA program, the MFA program, and the MFA writers. So I work with all of them. How many classes

1 (1h 6m 31s):
Do you teach up in there?

3 (1h 6m 32s):
It depends on what a semester of you ask. So this semester I'm teaching four five, and then next semester I'll teach 40. I'm

1 (1h 6m 39s):
Like, that's a fulltime situation almost, right?

3 (1h 6m 41s):
Yeah. I'm working full football time jobs. It's really intense. Yeah.

1 (1h 6m 44s):
Okay,

3 (1h 6m 45s):
Okay. And but they hired us knowing, right? So like, this is, this is one of the things that I am, you know, Kate Burton is also on faculty Alexander Billings, the profess. And so like if we, if they can make their lives work, I mean, I certainly can make my life work. So we've been very, we've been, we, we talk about it all the time. How blessed we are with this un with a, to be a part of a department that understands that, hey, you want people who are on the front lines working.

1 (1h 7m 12s):
And then I just have one quick question then I'll, I'll shut up for a while, but I just wanna know like what, how do you think u USC is doing,

3 (1h 7m 20s):
You know, look, it's not without its problems. I'm, I'm gonna remember you're saying that, right? I would say that it's, you know, in terms of like, there's a lot of structural issues. There's certainly curriculum stuff that I have a fundamental problem with, but that's every program. Oh sure. That's ju yeah, that's get in school, you know what I mean? That's whatever, everyone's got some kind of deficiency. But I will say for the, and I've said this like now that I'm this many years in on the other end of things and you know, like I see, I see a green pasture in, in, in the distance. I have to say like I could never have went somebody like me with the kind of career that I've had with the kind of roles that I play with the kind of art that I was meant to do.

3 (1h 8m 7s):
And I don't mean like as just an actor. Cause you know, you know, Multihyphenate, I was a multihyphenate before. That was a buzzword I would've sunk if I would've went to a strict conservatory. Like I could, I would not have been set up for success. I would not have the tools coming out. Okay.

1 (1h 8m 24s):
So who is set up to go, and this is a question for both you and Gina, cuz like, I left, I taught at the theater school at DePaul and left because I just couldn't, it was, there's a lot of shit going down. But I'm asking like, I guess there has to be a student that thrives at those places. Who are those people? Are they just, I mean, yeah,

3 (1h 8m 44s):
Jessica, Jessica Chastain for one, Adam driver number two. I mean, there's, I mean, there are people absolutely who have, you know, and honestly there are people who I would say like who, who I, maybe I should maybe more 20 years ago than now, but who want the regional life, right? Who wanna do the Lord theater circuit and want go and do Yeah, that I'm, I'm all about you doing a conservatory if that's the, the singular thing that you wanna do. But again, I had to forge my path in a very unconventional way. And that would not have been permissible if I was not in a school that allowed me to take French and allowed me to take chemistry and allowed me to, to, to go and do clubs and, and, and do theater outside of the program.

3 (1h 9m 25s):
So for me, that's why a, a school like Marquette and the, a school like usc, that's why I'm there because that is why it works for me.

2 (1h 9m 37s):
Yeah. So one, one of the things that we've spent a lot of time on the podcast talking about is our own epiphany into understanding that it's not about us trying to contort to fit this role. It's about figuring out what in the role I already have and bring, you know, bringing that to it. Is that kinda just generally how theater education is, is everybody operating under that same assumption? Or is there still a lot of, in your experience, you know, kind of the, you know, they used to say like, at theater school, especially at cut programs, oh, we break you down to build you up. You know, there's a lot of that, that's a very old mentality.

2 (1h 10m 17s):
But I'm curious how much of that is still in play, if you know?

3 (1h 10m 22s):
Yeah, I think that there's, with any program, there is still this sort of old world philosophy. I would, you know, and I I I'm gonna go on record saying that there's not, it's not that there's no room for it, right? But there's for, for, for me, it's if I'll use myself as an example, back in the day when it, when TV and theater were, for the most part mutually exclusive, right? No one went to New York for a television career, and if you did, it was by happenstance, right? That you got a gig or two or three, like right, But you didn't go there and no one went to LA for Broadway, right?

3 (1h 11m 2s):
So, like, for me, the, the thing is, I, I would say that back 20 years ago, like when you wanted the rigor of like theater training and understanding how to do checkoff and Shakespeare and, and con and like certainly a, a very regimented world would be much more because it is a right, we know it's a marathon. Theater's a marathon, you need somebody who can build your stamina, not just emotionally, but physically. Your voice has to last three hours in period costumes out in an Elizabethan theater. So that being said, that kind of rigor, I would say, you know, back 20 years ago was really important.

3 (1h 11m 42s):
But nowadays, especially, and again, I, this is my vantage point. Some people, I welcome anyone to counter it, but you can't have a life in theater unless you're doing a long running Broadway show, like Wicked or whatever, Phantom of the Opera, which is closing. I mean, like, you can't have a life in theater without having a life intel, with having roots in television or film nowadays because it just doesn't sustainable financially. So in order to do this television, in film world, for me, it's really about understanding who we are, like you said Gina, like understanding who we are and bringing that because we're in this world of natural like slice of life acting, right? And from going to be able to tap into one or the other will give you a very many more options and give you a longer sort of life in the business.

3 (1h 12m 29s):
But that being said, like it wasn't like that when I was, I could absolutely do this kind of stuff when I was and be more demonstrative and, and my voice and when I was doing that, when I was strictly pursuing theater. But now that I have a life in television, I had to learn how to toggle and understanding that what you said, like who I am as a human being is all I need to bring to the part. Yeah. Right. For me is, is, you know, look, I used to be the person I'm like, I was always up for Caliban in, in Tempest right. Creatures and stuff like that. So if I brought a lot of puck, yeah, I certainly played Puck twice, but like bringing that into a television audition is like all of a sudden it's too big.

3 (1h 13m 10s):
Well,

1 (1h 13m 10s):
You'd be on Saturday Night Live. I mean, they would put you right on Saturday life, but wait,

3 (1h 13m 13s):
Therefore, like, you,

1 (1h 13m 14s):
You just made me realize something. So I, I have like an audition for KFC today, which is great, great national, wonderful. But I never like gave it my all in these because I was like, Oh, I'm a plus size person, they're never gonna hire me for a food commercial. But today I have this realization like, fat people need to eat too. And I know that sounds so crazy, but like, I mean, it just sounds kind of flip it, but that's literally, I was like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Fat people need to eat chicken just like a skinny person. So like, and maybe even, whatever the point is, I always went into those like, so like, oh, they're never gonna cast me right in this food commercial.

1 (1h 13m 55s):
And I was like, well this is stupid cause no. And so anyway, it's sort of like the shift of that like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You booked this other thing. And people kept coming up to you saying like, Oh my God, thank God, like a lady looks like you on this Walmart commercial, Right? Like literally. And then I'm like, like, okay, well they, we have to eat everyone eats, so stop it to myself. I say stop

3 (1h 14m 16s):
It. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna

1 (1h 14m 17s):
Doing the funny bit in the fucking KFC commercial. So anyway, but it's a different, it's a shift of, I think, like you were saying, sort of not excluding myself based on how I look from certain things and not making assumptions either about what needs to happen and being just bringing myself to the goddamn table.

3 (1h 14m 41s):
And at the end of the day, like again, great acting is great. Acting is great, acting is great, acting is great. Acting like whether the whatever the medium, the foundation is the same, right? It's all the experience that sort shifts. So for me, like if you, someone's able to tap into that and really adopt that philosophy at the end of the, everyone, anyone who's like, Oh my God, this is television acting and this is theater acting. They can suck a bag of dicks. I mean it, sorry, it just, I'm, I'm totally that guy who has made a life doing both. And it is, and I know that it is possible to do both. And for one, for someone to say that one is too big and for one someone to say that, you know, one is not big enough, it's just, I'm like, well then good luck to the person.

3 (1h 15m 27s):
Good luck to the person who you believe is intended to do that storytelling. I would God speak because my what it was one, you know, I used to come to both New York and, and Chicago like, Oh, there's a way to get this. There's a right way to get this. And I was like, for so many years, that's all it was for me. I was like, Oh, this casting director, they like this, this director. And I was like, you know what? But that's not what makes me well, also

1 (1h 15m 52s):
Doesn't work. It doesn't fucking work a long term. It's

3 (1h 15m 56s):
Not a solution. It's also, again, like you said, it's a bandaid, right? I can get this job maybe if I'm lucky to get through, but is that making me a better actor?

2 (1h 16m 5s):
Yeah. You guys, is our industry the only one that makes us wonder on a daily basis if we're, you know, like people like human, like valued, you know, like if we matter as a person,

3 (1h 16m 18s):
You know, it's funny, it's

2 (1h 16m 21s):
Not matter. It's a real question.

3 (1h 16m 23s):
Someone told me many years ago, someone, someone so many years ago, like there are only two professions in the world where someone could base you could judge you based on your race, your, your race, your color, your size, and the way you look and, and devalue you as a, as a person. And that's being an actor and being a prostitute.

2 (1h 16m 44s):
Yeah, totally. No, totally.

3 (1h 16m 46s):
No. It's like, it's like scary. It's a profound to hear that. But eing said, I'm like, you know what? Bring it on. I'm so not like this. I'm not that age right now. I'm like, you know what? Like, if that's how people see us, that's how people see us. That's not how I see Michael. So I, there's, you know, that's all that matters to me.

1 (1h 17m 4s):
Also, the more I own this shit, like you were saying, the more we own whatever is going on, whatever it is, even if it's like you own the weirdness, the, the manic, the whatever the thing is, the more I own it, the more I own it, the more people really are like, Oh, we want that. I'm

3 (1h 17m 24s):
Like, what? What we do is what we do for a living is absolutely insane. And I want nothing else, but

2 (1h 17m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah.

3 (1h 17m 35s):
I can't, I, you know, I can't, I I would rather this and, and freaking out and, and like having a very eclectic life than me being bored with it.

2 (1h 17m 46s):
Yeah, me too.

3 (1h 17m 47s):
A hundred. Yeah. I don't, I don't function any other way like much to my, my family's grin, you know, they're complete opposite. They're very all about like, Hey, let's, where are we gonna, you know, where are we going to like settle down in? I'm like, no. I'm like, I have so much more life to live. And again, it's not, one's not better than the other. It just is what it's different.

2 (1h 18m 7s):
Yeah. Yeah. So at the beginning you said something about that you have a bunch of stories about accents and I, I was really curious to follow up on that. Yeah. What can you say about that?

3 (1h 18m 18s):
Alright, so speaking of Arthur Anderson, so I, this is totally Arthur Anderson. So I, many, many years ago, Richard Charo, he's a casting director in Chicago, died. He

1 (1h 18m 33s):
Passed away. Oh, dead. Okay.

3 (1h 18m 35s):
Dicko. Yes. He, I, I, I think I met him. I was, I was with Getty's Talent. Oh,

1 (1h 18m 42s):
Me too. Yeah.

3 (1h 18m 44s):
And she, I think it was Anne who was in Chicago, was like, Hey, Dick Charo saw you in a play and wants to bring you in for this thing. And I was all like, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what an indu, you know, a live industrial was. And they didn't even, it wasn't even called a live industrial then. And I went in and it was for what eventually would be a live industrial. And it was, the character's name was Martin Tan from Singapore. And I went to the audition and when I was, when I got there, I prepared the sides and I knew the character was from Singapore, but didn't say anything about an accent or anything.

3 (1h 19m 27s):
So Dick Charo said to me when I was doing the audition, Do you have an accent? Do you have a Singaporean accent? And I literally just go, Yep. And I don't, I mean, I don't, because again, it was again like getting the job for me, right? And so I made up, I mean I did a Filipino accent. It's the thickest Filipino accent I possibly could possibly do. And I did. And not thinking, not even, not again thinking that this, no one's gonna believe me as a businessman, right? Again, this is the part of me that was like, I look at good boy and I did the audition and I got the job and it was, it was an industrial, and it was supposed to be one industrial for Arthur for the business audit immersion program at Arthur Anderson.

3 (1h 20m 8s):
And so it's supposed to be one video industrial. So I did that and I remember the videotape in the tape. My, my first line is, I like it here in America cuz they have a lot of great rice. So, and then they show me in. And then what was weird though is that job turned into like, I think I did, I clocked in at over like 30 industrials for that one. And then they, they turned it into a live industrial. So they loved the four of us. I think Katherine Rodriguez is one, Kevin Kelly, who I'm still dear friends with, the three of us were part of this, this business audit immersion training like program, video program, and live industrial.

3 (1h 20m 51s):
They sent us all over the country, like training people how to, and we were employees. So as Martin Tan from Singapore, and we would do with this busted accent that I made, like I made up and eventually they had people from Singapore come to train. And I, like, I remember I was like, I don't even think I knew what a panic attack was until I got a call that day of being like, Hey, you're gonna be training people from Singapore. And I was all like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is phony. Like, And they were like, What do you mean? And I'm like, I I just made up that accent. I'm so sorry. Anyways, so, and I remember meeting some people, I remember meeting people from Singapore back in the nineties and them be looking at me like, You're busted.

3 (1h 21m 39s):
Like basically the look of death. They were like, we can't fire you, but you're canceled.

1 (1h 21m 43s):
Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. This is, I mean, that is an amazing story. And also I had the almost exact experience at Arthur Anderson live industrial where I was going into play. This was like two, no, 1999. I was going into play a Latina lady and they literally wanted her to talk like a chola from South Central. So like of course they did. She was supposed to be a, a employee and we, we had to be in character the whole time. I don't know if you had to be, but we couldn't be ourselves.

3 (1h 22m 13s):
Yes. That's undercover. Undercover. Yes. You're undercover. Yes, you're undercover.

1 (1h 22m 17s):
He's supposed to be the manager and like all kind crazy shit. And I, in the line of the, we had to in character, I'm dork from, I'm like, I would like chicken nuggets, please. And oh my God,

3 (1h 22m 34s):
Oh my god, it was ridiculous. And I've done, I mean, I wish that was the only case of that. I've done many of, many of crazy situations since then. So, but that being said, like again, it's all, it's all informed my career. Like I wouldn't have this if I didn't do that. So

2 (1h 22m 49s):
Yeah. But you're, I'm guessing you've been expected to be able at the drop of a hat to do literally any Asian accent, even though there are 4 million dialects, you know, within the company.

3 (1h 23m 1s):
Right. Look, I also like for a long time, you know, I'm a staunch advocate for the Asian American community. I, I serve on many a committee about representation, and it's, and it's easy to get into this place of like, oh my gosh, no, no, no, no, no. But also like, as, you know, as evidenced by like Easter Sunday and, and stuff, like, it's when a person is able to authentically portray somebody and also, you know, give that character a beating heart that bleeds red blood and dignity and grace, like I'm all for it. My mom has an accent, you know, and I certainly want to give voice to, you know, women like that. And I'm not be afraid of that. She grew, you know, she came to America always being ashamed of it.

3 (1h 23m 42s):
And I'm like, No, that's who you are. So if we can give them dignity, I'm like, I'm, it's when, when they're not, when they're not treating it with respect and grace's, there's the problem.

1 (1h 23m 51s):
It's the intention and the, and the, yeah, it's the intention and the, and like you're saying, respect and dignity. When a character has no dignity, that's where we get into, that's where we get into like the John Hughes 16 candles, you know, that is, that is, that is not their only purpose is to, is to make white people laugh.

3 (1h 24m 15s):
Yeah. Dehumanize somebody right to it's the dehumanization. That's where the danger lies. That's where Stop Asian hate. Right? That's where the Asian American hate, that's why is because we've been dehumanized for so long in represent in, in image in images. And so it's, it's like that's where the danger lies. But I'm also the first person I, I love, I love an accent, like a dear friend of mine and I, we, we've done em so long and for so long and we always got, were afraid of it, but it's also a special skill of ours, you know, and well, they're fucking

1 (1h 24m 46s):
Hard to

3 (1h 24m 47s):
Do. Yeah. They're hard and it's also really beautiful and there's a, you know, it's, it's a different kind of musicality, right? And, and it's, I, when you can do it and you do it well, and it can serve a purpose and it can serve life and you can give, you can make somebody multidimensional. I'm like, let's bring that on. Let's celebrate it. Right? Like, let's celebrate it. I, I hate hearing somebody going into a store or a restaurant and like feeling ashamed of their accent because everybody around them is like, what? Huh huh. And that's also because of the imagery that we've portrayed, you know, once we can sort of embrace it and say that these are human beings, I mean, I'm for it. I'm for it when it's under the right circumstances.

2 (1h 25m 27s):
Yeah, sure. Of course. Just like anything. So Ronnie, where can people find you?

3 (1h 25m 35s):
You can find me at usc. I also, I just wrapped on, Oh my gosh, you're hilarious. I I just wrapped on a new TV series with Michelle y so that rap Oh, we go, we're, we are Launch, I think it drops on Netflix on in, I wanna say the late summer. It's a big action pack series. So there's that coming out. Yeah, Thank you. That, that's been, and you know, Easter Sundays now out in, on, on dvd. So we've been who? Yeah, that's, that's it. But yeah. What about social media?

2 (1h 26m 10s):
Are you

3 (1h 26m 10s):
On social media? Oh, find me that way. Yeah. Oh, I'm on Instagram at Rodney to, it's r o d k n e e t o W. So it's my name phonetically, and then, yeah, Twitter. If I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be on Twitter. Alright. Yeah, I'm at Rod Red Rod there. That's a different one. And then on Facebook and stuff like that. So that's, I'm gonna find

2 (1h 26m 34s):
You. I'm gonna find So everywhere the answer is everywhere.

3 (1h 26m 38s):
I'm on, I'm on all the, I'm on. But I'm, I'm not on if you know what I mean. Like, I, I think I have like a follower and I think it's my husband. I mean that, it's like that. I, I dunno, it's so funny. At

2 (1h 26m 48s):
Least your husband follows you on TikTok, my husband. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jed Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Ink, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

Creators & Guests

Host

Gina Pulice

Co-host, Writer, Actor, Director

Host

Jen Bosworth Ramirez

Co-host, actor, writer, consultant

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?

1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth from this,

2 (10s):
And I'm Gina pci.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand

2 (15s):
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (30s):
How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your

1 (35s):
New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,

2 (39s):
Congratulations.

1 (40s):
Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.

1 (1m 20s):
Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.

2 (1m 29s):
They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,

1 (1m 31s):
Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.

1 (2m 25s):
And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.

1 (3m 6s):
I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.

2 (3m 10s):
Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?

2 (3m 52s):
You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.

1 (3m 57s):
That's amazing. Super.

2 (4m 0s):
So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,

1 (4m 11s):
I was there,

2 (4m 13s):
Fyi. Yes, you were

1 (4m 15s):
The first one, right? For your first one.

2 (4m 16s):
The first one.

1 (4m 18s):
Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.

2 (4m 50s):
Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.

2 (5m 30s):
That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.

1 (6m 8s):
Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.

1 (6m 50s):
I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked

2 (7m 15s):
It could've worked it

1 (7m 17s):
All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.

2 (7m 35s):
Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.

2 (8m 16s):
And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.

1 (8m 21s):
And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.

1 (9m 14s):
And done. What about you? What about you?

2 (9m 17s):
I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,

1 (9m 52s):
So Right.

2 (9m 53s):
They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.

2 (10m 33s):
Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.

2 (11m 20s):
I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got

1 (11m 51s):
That job because of

2 (11m 52s):
The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.

2 (12m 34s):
Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless

1 (12m 58s):
To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.

1 (13m 39s):
Period. You're so

2 (13m 41s):
To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.

1 (14m 20s):
No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.

2 (14m 56s):
Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.

1 (15m 35s):
And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,

2 (15m 48s):
This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.

1 (16m 29s):
I've never,

2 (16m 30s):
Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's

1 (16m 50s):
So cool.

2 (16m 51s):
Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,

1 (17m 7s):
The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.

1 (17m 47s):
It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.

1 (18m 29s):
I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.

1 (19m 13s):
That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.

1 (19m 53s):
So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.

2 (20m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.

2 (20m 56s):
And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.

2 (21m 37s):
You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.

2 (22m 18s):
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.

1 (22m 34s):
Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.

1 (23m 15s):
It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.

1 (23m 57s):
That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,

2 (24m 9s):
Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.

1 (24m 25s):
Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.

1 (25m 8s):
That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.

2 (25m 35s):
Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.

3 (26m 8s):
Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?

2 (26m 11s):
Yes, you sound great. You sound

1 (26m 13s):
Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a

2 (26m 17s):
Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.

3 (26m 28s):
Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was

2 (26m 31s):
It usc? Did you go to

3 (26m 32s):
Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So

1 (26m 36s):
We just assumed you went there, but where did you go

3 (26m 38s):
To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?

1 (26m 46s):
In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So

3 (26m 48s):
Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well

1 (26m 53s):
I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,

3 (26m 58s):
Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What

1 (27m 1s):
The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.

3 (27m 7s):
Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.

1 (27m 15s):
Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.

3 (27m 20s):
Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh

1 (27m 24s):
My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,

3 (27m 28s):
It's

1 (27m 28s):
Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these

3 (27m 34s):
Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together

1 (28m 4s):
That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,

3 (28m 34s):
What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,

1 (28m 54s):
In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,

3 (29m 4s):
Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.

1 (29m 7s):
Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,

3 (29m 13s):
There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.

1 (29m 43s):
This,

2 (29m 44s):
And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,

3 (30m 4s):
You

2 (30m 4s):
Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.

3 (30m 10s):
So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.

3 (30m 52s):
Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I

1 (30m 54s):
Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.

3 (30m 56s):
And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,

1 (30m 60s):
I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name

3 (31m 7s):
At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a

1 (31m 15s):
While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.

3 (31m 18s):
Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.

1 (31m 59s):
Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?

3 (32m 19s):
So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,

1 (32m 43s):
You're a hilarious Jesuit.

3 (32m 45s):
Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,

1 (33m 12s):
What the fuck is that?

3 (33m 14s):
Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.

3 (33m 55s):
And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I

1 (33m 60s):
Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so

3 (34m 4s):
Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're

1 (34m 20s):
Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.

3 (34m 23s):
Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,

1 (34m 39s):
I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so

3 (34m 51s):
Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge

1 (35m 18s):
Theater. Fyi. Right,

3 (35m 20s):
Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.

3 (36m 3s):
Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,

1 (36m 21s):
Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things

3 (36m 50s):
Gut, Yeah. Never

1 (36m 51s):
Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change

3 (37m 2s):
Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,

2 (37m 16s):
Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you

3 (37m 44s):
Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.

1 (38m 12s):
Super white. Super white. Yeah.

3 (38m 14s):
So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and

1 (38m 37s):
Talented,

3 (38m 38s):
You couldn't,

1 (38m 39s):
You

3 (38m 39s):
Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,

1 (39m 12s):
Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.

1 (39m 58s):
I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?

3 (40m 23s):
It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,

1 (40m 32s):
Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?

3 (40m 54s):
So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.

3 (41m 34s):
I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.

3 (42m 18s):
I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.

1 (42m 24s):
They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,

3 (42m 29s):
Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.

1 (42m 42s):
Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent

3 (42m 45s):
Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,

1 (42m 53s):
Rodney,

3 (42m 55s):
Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?

1 (42m 57s):
I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,

3 (42m 59s):
Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.

1 (43m 2s):
Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?

3 (43m 8s):
I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.

1 (43m 11s):
Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.

3 (43m 17s):
Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.

1 (43m 25s):
Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.

3 (43m 35s):
I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,

1 (43m 47s):
We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.

3 (43m 52s):
And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So

1 (43m 55s):
You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3 (43m 57s):
Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at

1 (44m 12s):
Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,

3 (44m 15s):
I'm sorry, what was that?

1 (44m 16s):
R i p, Victory Gardens.

3 (44m 17s):
Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,

1 (44m 30s):
Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,

3 (44m 38s):
It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.

3 (45m 19s):
I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went

1 (45m 32s):
To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,

2 (46m 9s):
Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.

3 (46m 29s):
Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That

2 (46m 53s):
Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.

3 (47m 8s):
Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.

1 (47m 18s):
The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.

3 (47m 36s):
Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.

1 (47m 42s):
Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.

1 (48m 25s):
Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,

3 (48m 35s):
That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,

1 (48m 46s):
I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it

3 (48m 50s):
Was because they're in.

1 (48m 51s):
Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And

3 (49m 3s):
This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,

1 (49m 7s):
Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.

3 (49m 11s):
No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.

3 (49m 53s):
But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I

1 (50m 11s):
Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and

3 (50m 20s):
Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that

1 (50m 43s):
Of an

2 (50m 45s):
Yeah know?

3 (50m 46s):
I mean,

2 (50m 47s):
So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing

3 (50m 55s):
Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.

2 (51m 19s):
Yeah.

1 (51m 20s):
We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,

2 (51m 23s):
Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.

3 (51m 26s):
He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.

2 (51m 30s):
That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?

2 (52m 14s):
Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?

3 (52m 18s):
Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?

3 (53m 2s):
We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.

3 (53m 43s):
You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.

3 (54m 23s):
And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.

2 (54m 31s):
Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?

3 (55m 3s):
I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.

3 (55m 43s):
And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from

1 (56m 25s):
The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.

1 (57m 6s):
And I'm

3 (57m 7s):
Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.

2 (57m 12s):
Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of

1 (57m 16s):
Our, you

3 (57m 17s):
Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,

1 (57m 38s):
Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,

3 (57m 42s):
You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.

1 (58m 14s):
We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.

1 (58m 57s):
So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.

3 (59m 1s):
Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.

3 (59m 45s):
Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.

1 (1h 0m 6s):
How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For

3 (1h 0m 10s):
Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it

1 (1h 0m 18s):
Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you

3 (1h 0m 23s):
Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.

1 (1h 0m 25s):
Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super

3 (1h 0m 36s):
Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.

3 (1h 1m 17s):
It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to look at me as an adult. That's when I got

2 (1h 1m 28s):
You, you had to step into your own understanding that you were fully competent so that you could then broadcast that to everybody else. Beautiful. Yeah. I'm really curious how all of your growth and maturation and your understanding of like one example of the way that people were teaching theater and acting at a certain point in time. I'm really curious, like what have you brought into your mission at usc? What have you wanted to see improve? What have you wanted to keep? What, what have you been able to bring to, to the curriculum that's, you know, uniquely you and what changes, if any, have you been able to make

3 (1h 2m 4s):
Sure, I mean, it's sort of threefold right off the bat. Like the first thing is, you know, they brought me in and I love working at usc. It made, it's so strange. I did not think I wanted to be a professor. I shot a pilot at the time when I got the offer in 20 18, 27, 20 18 I think it was. And all systems go for it to, to, to shoot. And we were gonna move to New York back to New York to shoot it. And then it got pulled from the, it got pulled from the schedule, the lineup. And, and I was back to sort of, you know, back to square one. And I, I don't really mean that literally, but that being said, this offer came at the dean at the time at USC was like, we want working professionals to come in and teach very specific, a very specific class.

3 (1h 2m 49s):
And so I, you know, I met with them and I, I was like, okay, I'll teach one class and then, you know, you know, I was i'll, I'll be the first to admit, I was like, Oh, this might be just a bookmark job. And then I got in there and I was like, I, I fell in love with it and not necessarily just the SDA department, but I fell in love with the fact that all of a sudden, like I became, that I became the, the, honestly I became the Asian professor and I realized in that moment like that for my first semester, I never had an Asian professor that in, in the arts ever. And it, all of a sudden I went from teaching one class and the next class I had, I would say 50% of my class, my students were, were Asian American. Cuz they heard about this guy, right?

3 (1h 3m 30s):
The guy who played Typhoon is teaching at usc. So all of a sudden now, and then like subsequently my classes, I became that guy and Asians were like, coming to Filipinos, especially specifically are like, I never had a Filipino professor. I never thought it could happen. So I, I wear that as a badge of honor. It's something that I'm like, I won't let, I won't give this up because the opportunities people are now seeing themselves in, in somebody like me and in a position that I have. So there's that. And then, you know, I always, my first day of classes, one of the first things that comes outta my mouth is whatever class I teach is, I don't, you're no longer a student to me. These are colleagues in training, right?

3 (1h 4m 10s):
So like for me, I I I treat them as such. I'm not here to treat them like babies. I'm not the kind of professor who's like, okay, let's check off attendance. You know, I'm not about like, I'm not about like turning your assignments and then you get it tomorrow with a grade on it. I'm very organic in the sense that like, that's what I wanna set. Like you said, Jen, like I wanna set my students up for success the way I wish I was set up for success. And every, it is not prescriptive. We know that what we do is not prescriptive. We could easily make it prescriptive. And, and that is, that is literally pulling the rug from underneath most of our, our an artist. And so I go in and holistically like work with every student to make sure that they, what makes them special, what makes them unique, their foundation is strong and that's gonna be different than every other student.

3 (1h 4m 56s):
So that to me is how I go about it. And, and for better or for worse, it's one of those things that I, I just, I love making sure that my students, whether they do this or not is not the, is not the point. Whether they, when they come out of here that they, they know what makes their artistry great. And then if they can do that, then God speed whatever happens that makes happen. But again, like I don't go in there being like, we're going to teach this philosophy and here's how you do it. And you know, everyone's body's different, right? So even, even our diaphragms, right? Our, and that to me is something like, I, I'm very conscientious of it because I, again, no one, I was working under a Eurocentric cis supremacist sort of theater philosophy and it for so many years I was like, Oh, this is how I am supposed to be in the world.

3 (1h 5m 47s):
And then all of a sudden someone's looking at me like, Dude, you're Asian and five foot five, like, you're never going to play Willie Lowman, right? Like, so, and it again, it was like, but then it was like, that's all I thought about for so long is I'm going to play that. I'm going to play this, or I I should strive to only play that.

1 (1h 6m 7s):
Okay. So I feel like when people say, Sorry to interrupt Rodney, but like, I wanna ask you a question. So are you teaching non-majors major? Who are your students?

3 (1h 6m 18s):
What I'm, I only work with majors. So like I work with, I work with all of the programs. So I teach in the BA program, the BFA program, the MFA program, and the MFA writers. So I work with all of them. How many classes

1 (1h 6m 31s):
Do you teach up in there?

3 (1h 6m 32s):
It depends on what a semester of you ask. So this semester I'm teaching four five, and then next semester I'll teach 40. I'm

1 (1h 6m 39s):
Like, that's a fulltime situation almost, right?

3 (1h 6m 41s):
Yeah. I'm working full football time jobs. It's really intense. Yeah.

1 (1h 6m 44s):
Okay,

3 (1h 6m 45s):
Okay. And but they hired us knowing, right? So like, this is, this is one of the things that I am, you know, Kate Burton is also on faculty Alexander Billings, the profess. And so like if we, if they can make their lives work, I mean, I certainly can make my life work. So we've been very, we've been, we, we talk about it all the time. How blessed we are with this un with a, to be a part of a department that understands that, hey, you want people who are on the front lines working.

1 (1h 7m 12s):
And then I just have one quick question then I'll, I'll shut up for a while, but I just wanna know like what, how do you think u USC is doing,

3 (1h 7m 20s):
You know, look, it's not without its problems. I'm, I'm gonna remember you're saying that, right? I would say that it's, you know, in terms of like, there's a lot of structural issues. There's certainly curriculum stuff that I have a fundamental problem with, but that's every program. Oh sure. That's ju yeah, that's get in school, you know what I mean? That's whatever, everyone's got some kind of deficiency. But I will say for the, and I've said this like now that I'm this many years in on the other end of things and you know, like I see, I see a green pasture in, in, in the distance. I have to say like I could never have went somebody like me with the kind of career that I've had with the kind of roles that I play with the kind of art that I was meant to do.

3 (1h 8m 7s):
And I don't mean like as just an actor. Cause you know, you know, Multihyphenate, I was a multihyphenate before. That was a buzzword I would've sunk if I would've went to a strict conservatory. Like I could, I would not have been set up for success. I would not have the tools coming out. Okay.

1 (1h 8m 24s):
So who is set up to go, and this is a question for both you and Gina, cuz like, I left, I taught at the theater school at DePaul and left because I just couldn't, it was, there's a lot of shit going down. But I'm asking like, I guess there has to be a student that thrives at those places. Who are those people? Are they just, I mean, yeah,

3 (1h 8m 44s):
Jessica, Jessica Chastain for one, Adam driver number two. I mean, there's, I mean, there are people absolutely who have, you know, and honestly there are people who I would say like who, who I, maybe I should maybe more 20 years ago than now, but who want the regional life, right? Who wanna do the Lord theater circuit and want go and do Yeah, that I'm, I'm all about you doing a conservatory if that's the, the singular thing that you wanna do. But again, I had to forge my path in a very unconventional way. And that would not have been permissible if I was not in a school that allowed me to take French and allowed me to take chemistry and allowed me to, to, to go and do clubs and, and, and do theater outside of the program.

3 (1h 9m 25s):
So for me, that's why a, a school like Marquette and the, a school like usc, that's why I'm there because that is why it works for me.

2 (1h 9m 37s):
Yeah. So one, one of the things that we've spent a lot of time on the podcast talking about is our own epiphany into understanding that it's not about us trying to contort to fit this role. It's about figuring out what in the role I already have and bring, you know, bringing that to it. Is that kinda just generally how theater education is, is everybody operating under that same assumption? Or is there still a lot of, in your experience, you know, kind of the, you know, they used to say like, at theater school, especially at cut programs, oh, we break you down to build you up. You know, there's a lot of that, that's a very old mentality.

2 (1h 10m 17s):
But I'm curious how much of that is still in play, if you know?

3 (1h 10m 22s):
Yeah, I think that there's, with any program, there is still this sort of old world philosophy. I would, you know, and I I I'm gonna go on record saying that there's not, it's not that there's no room for it, right? But there's for, for, for me, it's if I'll use myself as an example, back in the day when it, when TV and theater were, for the most part mutually exclusive, right? No one went to New York for a television career, and if you did, it was by happenstance, right? That you got a gig or two or three, like right, But you didn't go there and no one went to LA for Broadway, right?

3 (1h 11m 2s):
So, like, for me, the, the thing is, I, I would say that back 20 years ago, like when you wanted the rigor of like theater training and understanding how to do checkoff and Shakespeare and, and con and like certainly a, a very regimented world would be much more because it is a right, we know it's a marathon. Theater's a marathon, you need somebody who can build your stamina, not just emotionally, but physically. Your voice has to last three hours in period costumes out in an Elizabethan theater. So that being said, that kind of rigor, I would say, you know, back 20 years ago was really important.

3 (1h 11m 42s):
But nowadays, especially, and again, I, this is my vantage point. Some people, I welcome anyone to counter it, but you can't have a life in theater unless you're doing a long running Broadway show, like Wicked or whatever, Phantom of the Opera, which is closing. I mean, like, you can't have a life in theater without having a life intel, with having roots in television or film nowadays because it just doesn't sustainable financially. So in order to do this television, in film world, for me, it's really about understanding who we are, like you said Gina, like understanding who we are and bringing that because we're in this world of natural like slice of life acting, right? And from going to be able to tap into one or the other will give you a very many more options and give you a longer sort of life in the business.

3 (1h 12m 29s):
But that being said, like it wasn't like that when I was, I could absolutely do this kind of stuff when I was and be more demonstrative and, and my voice and when I was doing that, when I was strictly pursuing theater. But now that I have a life in television, I had to learn how to toggle and understanding that what you said, like who I am as a human being is all I need to bring to the part. Yeah. Right. For me is, is, you know, look, I used to be the person I'm like, I was always up for Caliban in, in Tempest right. Creatures and stuff like that. So if I brought a lot of puck, yeah, I certainly played Puck twice, but like bringing that into a television audition is like all of a sudden it's too big.

3 (1h 13m 10s):
Well,

1 (1h 13m 10s):
You'd be on Saturday Night Live. I mean, they would put you right on Saturday life, but wait,

3 (1h 13m 13s):
Therefore, like, you,

1 (1h 13m 14s):
You just made me realize something. So I, I have like an audition for KFC today, which is great, great national, wonderful. But I never like gave it my all in these because I was like, Oh, I'm a plus size person, they're never gonna hire me for a food commercial. But today I have this realization like, fat people need to eat too. And I know that sounds so crazy, but like, I mean, it just sounds kind of flip it, but that's literally, I was like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Fat people need to eat chicken just like a skinny person. So like, and maybe even, whatever the point is, I always went into those like, so like, oh, they're never gonna cast me right in this food commercial.

1 (1h 13m 55s):
And I was like, well this is stupid cause no. And so anyway, it's sort of like the shift of that like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You booked this other thing. And people kept coming up to you saying like, Oh my God, thank God, like a lady looks like you on this Walmart commercial, Right? Like literally. And then I'm like, like, okay, well they, we have to eat everyone eats, so stop it to myself. I say stop

3 (1h 14m 16s):
It. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna

1 (1h 14m 17s):
Doing the funny bit in the fucking KFC commercial. So anyway, but it's a different, it's a shift of, I think, like you were saying, sort of not excluding myself based on how I look from certain things and not making assumptions either about what needs to happen and being just bringing myself to the goddamn table.

3 (1h 14m 41s):
And at the end of the day, like again, great acting is great. Acting is great, acting is great, acting is great. Acting like whether the whatever the medium, the foundation is the same, right? It's all the experience that sort shifts. So for me, like if you, someone's able to tap into that and really adopt that philosophy at the end of the, everyone, anyone who's like, Oh my God, this is television acting and this is theater acting. They can suck a bag of dicks. I mean it, sorry, it just, I'm, I'm totally that guy who has made a life doing both. And it is, and I know that it is possible to do both. And for one, for someone to say that one is too big and for one someone to say that, you know, one is not big enough, it's just, I'm like, well then good luck to the person.

3 (1h 15m 27s):
Good luck to the person who you believe is intended to do that storytelling. I would God speak because my what it was one, you know, I used to come to both New York and, and Chicago like, Oh, there's a way to get this. There's a right way to get this. And I was like, for so many years, that's all it was for me. I was like, Oh, this casting director, they like this, this director. And I was like, you know what? But that's not what makes me well, also

1 (1h 15m 52s):
Doesn't work. It doesn't fucking work a long term. It's

3 (1h 15m 56s):
Not a solution. It's also, again, like you said, it's a bandaid, right? I can get this job maybe if I'm lucky to get through, but is that making me a better actor?

2 (1h 16m 5s):
Yeah. You guys, is our industry the only one that makes us wonder on a daily basis if we're, you know, like people like human, like valued, you know, like if we matter as a person,

3 (1h 16m 18s):
You know, it's funny, it's

2 (1h 16m 21s):
Not matter. It's a real question.

3 (1h 16m 23s):
Someone told me many years ago, someone, someone so many years ago, like there are only two professions in the world where someone could base you could judge you based on your race, your, your race, your color, your size, and the way you look and, and devalue you as a, as a person. And that's being an actor and being a prostitute.

2 (1h 16m 44s):
Yeah, totally. No, totally.

3 (1h 16m 46s):
No. It's like, it's like scary. It's a profound to hear that. But eing said, I'm like, you know what? Bring it on. I'm so not like this. I'm not that age right now. I'm like, you know what? Like, if that's how people see us, that's how people see us. That's not how I see Michael. So I, there's, you know, that's all that matters to me.

1 (1h 17m 4s):
Also, the more I own this shit, like you were saying, the more we own whatever is going on, whatever it is, even if it's like you own the weirdness, the, the manic, the whatever the thing is, the more I own it, the more I own it, the more people really are like, Oh, we want that. I'm

3 (1h 17m 24s):
Like, what? What we do is what we do for a living is absolutely insane. And I want nothing else, but

2 (1h 17m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah.

3 (1h 17m 35s):
I can't, I, you know, I can't, I I would rather this and, and freaking out and, and like having a very eclectic life than me being bored with it.

2 (1h 17m 46s):
Yeah, me too.

3 (1h 17m 47s):
A hundred. Yeah. I don't, I don't function any other way like much to my, my family's grin, you know, they're complete opposite. They're very all about like, Hey, let's, where are we gonna, you know, where are we going to like settle down in? I'm like, no. I'm like, I have so much more life to live. And again, it's not, one's not better than the other. It just is what it's different.

2 (1h 18m 7s):
Yeah. Yeah. So at the beginning you said something about that you have a bunch of stories about accents and I, I was really curious to follow up on that. Yeah. What can you say about that?

3 (1h 18m 18s):
Alright, so speaking of Arthur Anderson, so I, this is totally Arthur Anderson. So I, many, many years ago, Richard Charo, he's a casting director in Chicago, died. He

1 (1h 18m 33s):
Passed away. Oh, dead. Okay.

3 (1h 18m 35s):
Dicko. Yes. He, I, I, I think I met him. I was, I was with Getty's Talent. Oh,

1 (1h 18m 42s):
Me too. Yeah.

3 (1h 18m 44s):
And she, I think it was Anne who was in Chicago, was like, Hey, Dick Charo saw you in a play and wants to bring you in for this thing. And I was all like, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what an indu, you know, a live industrial was. And they didn't even, it wasn't even called a live industrial then. And I went in and it was for what eventually would be a live industrial. And it was, the character's name was Martin Tan from Singapore. And I went to the audition and when I was, when I got there, I prepared the sides and I knew the character was from Singapore, but didn't say anything about an accent or anything.

3 (1h 19m 27s):
So Dick Charo said to me when I was doing the audition, Do you have an accent? Do you have a Singaporean accent? And I literally just go, Yep. And I don't, I mean, I don't, because again, it was again like getting the job for me, right? And so I made up, I mean I did a Filipino accent. It's the thickest Filipino accent I possibly could possibly do. And I did. And not thinking, not even, not again thinking that this, no one's gonna believe me as a businessman, right? Again, this is the part of me that was like, I look at good boy and I did the audition and I got the job and it was, it was an industrial, and it was supposed to be one industrial for Arthur for the business audit immersion program at Arthur Anderson.

3 (1h 20m 8s):
And so it's supposed to be one video industrial. So I did that and I remember the videotape in the tape. My, my first line is, I like it here in America cuz they have a lot of great rice. So, and then they show me in. And then what was weird though is that job turned into like, I think I did, I clocked in at over like 30 industrials for that one. And then they, they turned it into a live industrial. So they loved the four of us. I think Katherine Rodriguez is one, Kevin Kelly, who I'm still dear friends with, the three of us were part of this, this business audit immersion training like program, video program, and live industrial.

3 (1h 20m 51s):
They sent us all over the country, like training people how to, and we were employees. So as Martin Tan from Singapore, and we would do with this busted accent that I made, like I made up and eventually they had people from Singapore come to train. And I, like, I remember I was like, I don't even think I knew what a panic attack was until I got a call that day of being like, Hey, you're gonna be training people from Singapore. And I was all like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is phony. Like, And they were like, What do you mean? And I'm like, I I just made up that accent. I'm so sorry. Anyways, so, and I remember meeting some people, I remember meeting people from Singapore back in the nineties and them be looking at me like, You're busted.

3 (1h 21m 39s):
Like basically the look of death. They were like, we can't fire you, but you're canceled.

1 (1h 21m 43s):
Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. This is, I mean, that is an amazing story. And also I had the almost exact experience at Arthur Anderson live industrial where I was going into play. This was like two, no, 1999. I was going into play a Latina lady and they literally wanted her to talk like a chola from South Central. So like of course they did. She was supposed to be a, a employee and we, we had to be in character the whole time. I don't know if you had to be, but we couldn't be ourselves.

3 (1h 22m 13s):
Yes. That's undercover. Undercover. Yes. You're undercover. Yes, you're undercover.

1 (1h 22m 17s):
He's supposed to be the manager and like all kind crazy shit. And I, in the line of the, we had to in character, I'm dork from, I'm like, I would like chicken nuggets, please. And oh my God,

3 (1h 22m 34s):
Oh my god, it was ridiculous. And I've done, I mean, I wish that was the only case of that. I've done many of, many of crazy situations since then. So, but that being said, like again, it's all, it's all informed my career. Like I wouldn't have this if I didn't do that. So

2 (1h 22m 49s):
Yeah. But you're, I'm guessing you've been expected to be able at the drop of a hat to do literally any Asian accent, even though there are 4 million dialects, you know, within the company.

3 (1h 23m 1s):
Right. Look, I also like for a long time, you know, I'm a staunch advocate for the Asian American community. I, I serve on many a committee about representation, and it's, and it's easy to get into this place of like, oh my gosh, no, no, no, no, no. But also like, as, you know, as evidenced by like Easter Sunday and, and stuff, like, it's when a person is able to authentically portray somebody and also, you know, give that character a beating heart that bleeds red blood and dignity and grace, like I'm all for it. My mom has an accent, you know, and I certainly want to give voice to, you know, women like that. And I'm not be afraid of that. She grew, you know, she came to America always being ashamed of it.

3 (1h 23m 42s):
And I'm like, No, that's who you are. So if we can give them dignity, I'm like, I'm, it's when, when they're not, when they're not treating it with respect and grace's, there's the problem.

1 (1h 23m 51s):
It's the intention and the, and the, yeah, it's the intention and the, and like you're saying, respect and dignity. When a character has no dignity, that's where we get into, that's where we get into like the John Hughes 16 candles, you know, that is, that is, that is not their only purpose is to, is to make white people laugh.

3 (1h 24m 15s):
Yeah. Dehumanize somebody right to it's the dehumanization. That's where the danger lies. That's where Stop Asian hate. Right? That's where the Asian American hate, that's why is because we've been dehumanized for so long in represent in, in image in images. And so it's, it's like that's where the danger lies. But I'm also the first person I, I love, I love an accent, like a dear friend of mine and I, we, we've done em so long and for so long and we always got, were afraid of it, but it's also a special skill of ours, you know, and well, they're fucking

1 (1h 24m 46s):
Hard to

3 (1h 24m 47s):
Do. Yeah. They're hard and it's also really beautiful and there's a, you know, it's, it's a different kind of musicality, right? And, and it's, I, when you can do it and you do it well, and it can serve a purpose and it can serve life and you can give, you can make somebody multidimensional. I'm like, let's bring that on. Let's celebrate it. Right? Like, let's celebrate it. I, I hate hearing somebody going into a store or a restaurant and like feeling ashamed of their accent because everybody around them is like, what? Huh huh. And that's also because of the imagery that we've portrayed, you know, once we can sort of embrace it and say that these are human beings, I mean, I'm for it. I'm for it when it's under the right circumstances.

2 (1h 25m 27s):
Yeah, sure. Of course. Just like anything. So Ronnie, where can people find you?

3 (1h 25m 35s):
You can find me at usc. I also, I just wrapped on, Oh my gosh, you're hilarious. I I just wrapped on a new TV series with Michelle y so that rap Oh, we go, we're, we are Launch, I think it drops on Netflix on in, I wanna say the late summer. It's a big action pack series. So there's that coming out. Yeah, Thank you. That, that's been, and you know, Easter Sundays now out in, on, on dvd. So we've been who? Yeah, that's, that's it. But yeah. What about social media?

2 (1h 26m 10s):
Are you

3 (1h 26m 10s):
On social media? Oh, find me that way. Yeah. Oh, I'm on Instagram at Rodney to, it's r o d k n e e t o W. So it's my name phonetically, and then, yeah, Twitter. If I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be on Twitter. Alright. Yeah, I'm at Rod Red Rod there. That's a different one. And then on Facebook and stuff like that. So that's, I'm gonna find

2 (1h 26m 34s):
You. I'm gonna find So everywhere the answer is everywhere.

3 (1h 26m 38s):
I'm on, I'm on all the, I'm on. But I'm, I'm not on if you know what I mean. Like, I, I think I have like a follower and I think it's my husband. I mean that, it's like that. I, I dunno, it's so funny. At

2 (1h 26m 48s):
Least your husband follows you on TikTok, my husband. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jed Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Ink, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.