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Meaningful stories and conversations from the fringe of societal norms.
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we are. Welcome back, it's been a while.
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You know, originally when I started doing these podcasts, the idea was all spawned around,
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know, having a quiet mind, time to think, and exploring people's narratives. That was the key
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what
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of spawned this change,
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was
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what I have been doing, which is
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together, having good,
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authentic
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conversations,
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but also incorporating some of the things that do drive me crazy,
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And trip reviews
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they're always the same.
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it's
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me sitting in front of a computer, and trying to put some pictures together,
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So
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incorporating the two will free up some more time.
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here we go. West Bank Anglers Permit to Think,
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a little different.
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right. Well, welcome back
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our guest today, our Greg Case. Thanks for coming, Greg. Happy to be here, Mike. And Colin. Thanks for coming, Colin. Yeah. Happy to be here as well. Yeah.
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before we before we get going, we do have to address the Eagles real quick because Greg is an Eagles fan and we won't spend too much time on it. But
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night was was so painful. I just faded. And, you know, I will say watching my son get angry was was fulfilling, which maybe that's part of an Eagles thing. But how did you take it? Well, I mean, you know, Mike, because you grew up in the Philadelphia area, as did I, it's a the Eagles are agony and ecstasy always, you know, it's very rare that it's all all up into the right with the Eagles. There's a lot of moments in any season where you wind up shouting television or throwing something on it. Monday night was definitely that. It's terrible to see a team with all that talent just consistently play like crap. But that seems to be the theme of this year. I always had the Bears game the week before when they were even worse. So it's just kind of ruined a great weekend. Yeah, we were talking about it last night. I come a little watching Thursday night football and.
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we've come a long way from the from the Super Bowl, which, you know, best game I've ever seen in my life, but also having the rest of the country rooting for us. Those are those are special times. So for sure. I'm hanging on to that. And quite honestly, you know, I mean, a lot of people around the country think we're insane because it eight and five. We still control our destiny. We all want to bench their starting quarterback with the Super Bowl. We beat 10 months ago. So, you know, Philadelphia fans have some serious mental health problems. So yeah, damning with that comment. But it's true.
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Absolutely.
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Well, on to just some quick, quick background, Greg, on to, you know, how did you how did you get into fishing? How did the journey start for you? Sure. I started probably when I was two or three years old with my father up in Maine. We'd go over there. We'd go up there every summer for vacation. And so I think for the first 30 years of my life, I was a worm dunker for a brook trout in little streams up in Maine.
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And that's where I did the bulk of my fishing. I got into fly fishing when I was coming out of business school.
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Buddy of mine introduced me to it. And, you know, I loved it. I had my first trip ever was the Bitterroot River for the squalor hatch in the spring, which is a very storied hatch and fell in love with it. You know, I mean, as we all know, you wind up doing beautiful places in that and that river at that time was actually pretty lightly fished for that squalor hatch. So you spend a whole day and see not another boat on the water and catch 40 or 50 fish. Most of them, you know, quite large up and eating dry flies in early April, which I think is pretty rare almost anywhere. But that's really what got me hooked on fly fishing. And then one of my guide buddies from Montana, who I think was number 150, 15 in the Montana guide system, which means he was one of the originals, started talking to me about saltwater fly fishing, probably in the early 2000s. And I told him I wasn't that interesting because I love fishing for trout and how could it be any better. And then I went down and did a trip actually in the Wucatan and I've been a heavy saltwater guy ever since. And if I had one more day to fish, I'd probably do it on the salt.
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So I've sort of come around. I mean, it's all good, but the saltwater fishing for me is pretty awesome.
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I've never fished the, I've never hit the actual squalor hatch right up that way. Is there snow cap mountains in the background when that's going on? Yeah, the better way we tend to fish it mid river. So from Darby, if you're familiar with that part of the country, which happens to be where they actually film the Yellowstone series. That's sort of put that town on the map. But from Darby down river, probably all the way down to Stevensville and below that. So pretty good chunk of water and the bitter root has large browns, very large cuts and cut bows. It's been a catch and release for cutthroat for about 25 years now. And actually the guys that have been there much longer than me would tell you the fishing now is better than it's ever been. But the pressure is also higher than it's ever been. But it's, You don't hear too often though. What's that? That's something you don't hear too often is it's better than it's ever been. Yeah, it's, you know, the question always is, is there a tipping point with the amount of pressure that we have? But the river has held up pretty well and I've been doing it there now for over 30 years. But it flows right at the base of the bitter root mountains right near where Lewis and Clark went through, you know, back on their expedition.
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And the bitter root flows through a large valley with probably 2000 feet of gravel in that valley from what I've been told. So the river changes course every year. And it's filled with cut banks and root balls and sod and great fish habitat. It's got more timber in that river than I've seen in any river I've ever fished. And that is really what helps make it a great river.
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Yeah, and so they're, I mean, they're during that hatch when it's going, I mean, it has to be, I know exactly where you're talking about a fish that there's, there's got to be snow peaked now. I guess where I'm getting at is the big dry thing with snow mountains, you know, snow on the mountains in the background is, it's pretty magical. It's just spectacular. And you're right. We're there pre-snow melt, which is the whole play. The water's cold. I mean, the temperature is typically upper 30s to mid 40s. But believe it or not, the fish is really well at that, at that temperature. And, you know, the snow is usually by that point in time, most years above 5000 feet. And the river from Derby down drops from maybe 4400 feet to 4000 feet. So we're usually about 1000 people have snow melt, but I've been out there plenty of times during blizzards in early April. And I've been out there when it's 80 degrees. It's sort of considered to be the Banana Belt of Montana. And it's got a pretty wide range of temperatures you can get. But there's always snow on the mountains, just a matter of how close is the river. Yeah.
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And you grew up in the Philly area or no? I grew up in Bucks County. And I've seen recall you grew up around West Chester. Is that right? Yes. Well, my whole father's side of the family was Chester Springs. And then I grew up in Pennington, New Jersey.
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We're bouncing back and forth. So yeah, I've got my cousins in Pennington. But yeah, that's so you're in Pennsylvania specifically, which is right on the Delaware. You know, not too far from Pennington. Excellent. And Colin, I get to see you almost on a daily basis. But why don't you tell everyone where you're from and how do you how'd the fishing find you?
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Yeah, I'm originally from Virginia. I grew up in a small town called Clarksville in Southern Virginia on a lake there. So growing up on a lake naturally,
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know, picked up a spin rod first and
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would fish pretty much daily for large mouth catfish, gar, crappy, as we call them in Virginia. And
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then, yeah, pivoted to fly fishing in in college, I had a bunch of buddies that
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fly fished, I was always kind of interested in it. And, you know, we'd see them going out and started going out with them. And it was kind of a game over from there, I'd say, or the start of the game rather, but started fly fishing and didn't look back. And that's really what brought me out west to Wyoming.
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Did you did you catch a lot of gar growing up? Yeah, super fun fish to catch. They roll and sip a lot like tarpon, they have a long and so we'd go out and stand up paddleboards and you'd see him kind of popping around everywhere. And we tie these like rope lures, no hooks just unravel the rope and put wire around it and did that and it's a blast. Yeah, actually very good fish too. Yeah.
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Yeah, and we'll get to you guys experience at the blacksmith lodge but before before we do I'd be remissed if if we didn't touch on the Jackson Hole one fly, which obviously both of you participate in and Greg is the chairman of the board that's correct right Greg. It is Yeah, I've been chairman of the board for about five years now.
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That's great. And how when what was your introduction or both of you to the event itself, I have one of my good friends here in Philadelphia, his father had been participating actually I think just paid ever since the first one fly.
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And so that's how we heard about it. Al Shoemaker I don't know if you ever met out
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be he fish with Joe to Brian Joe been the chairman of the event for quite a while.
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A team from LA called LA rods it's been pretty successful there for a long time but anyhow we heard about it through
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friend's father.
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I think we applied for seven straight years
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not get denied and finally got in I think 2006 or 2007 was our first year. And we've done it ever since and I think I went on the board
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around 2015 and became chairman 2020 and then as chairman my first act was the cancel the one flying
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of COVID. So, you know, but we, what we tried to do we've been, and you tell me when you want me to stop talking about the one flight but we are whole goal is to raise money. Yeah, to protect the snake in the South Fork to put it back into the community on the jack Jackson and on the on the Idaho side. And so when that year when we cancel the one fly we still paid all the guides and the outfitters for freight, as if we held the tournament, just because we knew people were probably in a bit of a pinch, given that a lot of folks were having trips cancelled. And I think that that's sort of indicative of what we've tried to be which is a really good partner for the community outfitters guides and just, you know, the folks that live out on either side of the of the Tetons out there.
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Yeah, and your your for a was as a guide right. Yeah. I mean, ever since I moved here I'd heard about the one fly.
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whether it's good or bad always heard about it and always seemed intriguing and never really. I don't know, just was guiding and never really thought about guiding in it and then I was asked to and I was like yeah sure let's try it out and I gotta say I had an absolute blast guiding it.
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I had to meet some great people had some really fun days on the water.
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And then was fortunate enough to be invited by Lisa Smith who's also a board member to join her team and and have fished it for, I think, three years now and you know to this day I think I still regret not taking your advice and when that was when I won top pro and the first year I did I should have just quit and ended on top and now I'm ever chasing that you know that high again. I'm trying to win it. Yeah, it's fun. It's a really fun event and I think people forget that and it's a lot of fun. It's the most fishing I get to do. I feel like all summer it's, you know, two full days of where I'm not rowing the boat at all. I'm just kind of casting the rod and it's fun. I mean, you know, fishing and all these other activities we do it takes your mind off a lot of things and I'd say the one flight does it 10 X because you're focused on that one little fly all day long. And that's the only thing you give a damn about the whole time. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, Greg, go ahead. No, it's because it's well said I tend to fish small drives when I'm out there not always but 80% of the time. And as you get older, you know, you'll make a cash you can't see your final anymore so you're constantly you're freaked out you've lost it but it's it is. It's a lot of fun, but it's incredibly intense. I actually think in a lot of ways, it's very similar to fishing for tarpon or permit. And what I mean by that is you've got stretches where not all that goes on. And all of a sudden, a very important thing happens in a short period of time and you have to react well or you miss your opportunity. And so it's a pretty intense fishing experience as it typically is if you're fishing for either one of those species and salt.
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Yeah, I mean, I've been around it now for probably 25 years, you know, either as the outfitter providing guides donating participating all of it and I think what's interesting to me is and I'm addressing this quite often now when the Jackson Hole one flag comes up is it's almost like the intensity of the event because there's no doubt right I've been in that and it's, it's almost all consuming. Yeah, kind of takes over, you know, if you live here for the buzz of what's actually happening what's actually happening is remarkable right I mean, the amount of dollars raised and the ability for nonprofits to apply, you know, for a grant through the foundation right
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the amount of money right is remarkable. I mean, I don't I don't have my my number on I can probably have. Yeah,
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no, I can I can do it. See, I think
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as you know, and Colin knows on the Friday night before the event we have an auction and that's the principal fundraising mechanism. People are going to be like, Oh, I'm going to do it.
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And we're now raising on average four to $500,000 in that one night. So in the past 40 years, this will be our 40th year coming up, we started out smaller and now we're at a full field of 40 teams 160 anglers. But we've donated 3.4 million for money that we've raised directly but that has then triggered about 25 million of money from other sources so also we're approaching $30 million that's been raised and deployed in lots of projects conservation education community based on both sides of the Tetons. And I think, you know, we're well over probably 100 projects at this point by quite a bit over 100. And the way that tends to break down is the vast majority of conservation related example is work we've done on Rainey Creek to help with the fish passage there.
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Flat Creek restoration work for those folks that are maybe watching or listening that if fish flat Creek on the Jackson side, we sponsor kids days on both the Jackson and the Idaho side to get the next generation of fly fishermen up and involved hopefully we have scholarships I think we did nine last year nine scholarships we paid for the Spencer Morton. Scholarship which is affiliated with the Jackson Hole fly fishing school. And we have a University of Wyoming aquatic biology scholarship that we have in place. So we do a lot of work with science, we try to get the young younger folks involved, spend a ton of money and time on conservation projects also providing access on both the South Fork and the snake itself. So I'm not sure it's funny, Mike, even though a lot of people that are in the event have been doing it for years, you'd be surprised that I don't think it I don't think the work that we've done is as well known. Yeah, the print is well understood is the dollar amount should be because the dollars. Yeah. And that that's been my kind of recent takeaway
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because it is consuming right whether or not someone's for the event or someone's, you know, anti I don't know why but they would be but then it comes up in my conversation right right away. Yeah, it's like, you know, you know where this, this is all going right you know it's for, I mean, it's, it's, I mean those numbers you just said those are pretty remarkable. Right. And yeah, yeah. I'm curious as to, you know, as to how, you know, here we go right. This is a good example of getting it out there right. I mean, because it is really remarkable and as someone who's a board member on the South work initiative you know I appreciate the work on Rainey Creek right I mean that's, that's all pretty, pretty amazing stuff. And as you may not know yet but you probably will hear about at some point we actually was very kind of Henry's work foundation came over and presented to our board in July, because I know you know a lot of the work that's been done over there is, you know, it's very interesting and I think it's been a long period of time longitudinal studies on temperature and turbidity and water all which is important. And they came over and updated us on what they were doing, because I think there's an opportunity to do more with the Henry's work foundation to benefit the south for, for example. You know, we're all in this together. I think that sometimes you can lose sight of that. And to your earlier comment, the weekend of the one fly is such an intense weekend it's very difficult to get your head up. And so we need to do more to sort of talk about at other times of the year exactly what the one flies all about but thank goodness for us we've got folks like the Henry's work foundation the South Fork Initiative trial unlimited. You know, the Jackson Hole chapter has done its time we've done a lot of projects with them. So there are a lot of folks that all are working towards the same end goal which is hopefully to leave this fishery as good or better as it is now for the next generation is really that that's really the goal. Yeah, no, it's remarkable and I mean I remember when we were trying to start the South Fork Initiative a while ago it was a bunch of fishing bums right and it was like finally the revelation was revelation sorry was like we have no idea what we're doing but the Henry's Fork Foundation does so we are an initiative of HFF.
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Well yeah that that's remarkable and yeah I just I just I could agree more with what you said right I mean it's it's such a such an intense event that what the higher goal should be celebrated more other times of the year right I mean it's truly remarkable. So we're going to allow us now to do more than our website was an older version and we've got a new one that's out now we can really do a lot more with that to provide more regular content.
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So folks can go on that website really get a better feel for what we do every project that we worked on is now feature on that website it's interactive map you click on a dot, pull up the information on the project itself. And so the goal really is to make more and more people aware of these projects because we we'd like to ultimately get to the point where people donate directly for a specific project that actually allows us to expand our donation footprint, and there's there's more than enough as you well know, work to go around conservation education.
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So the new website I think will be very helpful for us. Yeah, well as I'm staring at
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green grass growing on the south side of my house currently in December, which is very confusing. Yeah, but yeah, there'll be plenty of projects right. I mean, yeah. Well, great. Well, thanks for that.
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let's let's move on to blacksmith.
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know, near and dear spot to my heart.
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The whole area, not obviously just blacksmith but the whole thing and spent a lot of time down there but I wasn't on your trip so let's, let's hear a little bit right first time for. I know for calling but for you to Greg in. It was. Yeah, it was. It was great having column there he did he did a great job of hosting us and we're very fortunate. I came with three friends, and I think we had a total of remind me calm weather eight fishermen on the trip until nine total. And it was wonderful because we got along famously and I think we've all we all said as we were leaving we look forward to seeing all everybody that was there again next November because we were there in early November so the folks we fish we were, we're terrific, just a really fun bunch of guys. Colin did a great job of keeping us organized and you know when we had the occasional equipment glitch was helpful I mean my make a real blew up in my hotel room. Before we before we even started so. It was a toughie.
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But that was great and I have to say I've been to Ascension Bay I think six or seven times over the years. And I love that we stayed in point to Allen. Nice little town that made seems like a booming metropolis next to point to her arrow but the thing about essential pay that you just have to get used to is there's a lot of boat traffic, whether it's eco tours or other lodges and you get down the SP and it's a beautiful, beautiful.
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Body of water and you know, taking that two hour drive or hour and a half drive from the airport will strip you fly into up to the lodge you get a sense it's really quite remote.
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And then you go out on that water and you see very few other boats, other than the boats that are with lodge itself.
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The fishery I think reflects that it's just a beautiful place and one of the very few times in my life where expectations.
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There were reality exceeded expectations by a pretty wide margin.
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And that was displayed the fact that we had probably half the trip we had some challenging weather, but it's a phenomenal fishery unbelievable food the lodge.
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Terrific guides, you know, couldn't have been better. Yeah, and speaking of boats right like it's it's interesting once you get a little more familiar with the place like I'll forever go to Punta Allen, right. I love it. And the same would go with the keys, right? Like you just you're just kind of used to the boat traffic because you're going to the keys.
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But you were just down there right with with Willie Benson. I was with Will. I've had the good fortune to fish with Will and another well known guy down there, Aaron Snell, both of them just paid in the permit tournaments. I think Mike that you've participated in and won a few times, I think with Will.
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But, you know, it's funny, the keys to fish better and better. I've only been going down there for three years, but the last four trips I've had have been phenomenal. Tarpon bonefish and permit, a lot of bonefish, permetor coming back. I just came back from there a week ago. We were taking shots at 100 to 150 pound tarpon all day long, which I think is kind of unusual for December, but they've had very subtle weather. But I've come to realize how great that fishery is. And yet you're not going to get your reps. I mean, you can get your reps at Tarpon, you can get your reps of bonefish. Hard to get your reps on permit, particularly if you're beginning permit fishermen in the keys because you just don't get that many shots. And I contrast that with ESB and Connell.
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You know, Connell confirmed this, hopefully. I think in the first three days, ESB, we must have seen just me and my boatmate, we must have seen a couple thousand permit in huge schools. Yeah, I would agree.
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Right. Yeah, I'd say it's not something that always happens, but it did happen.
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I mean, you could definitely see the numbers, but yeah, that was extraordinary. You wouldn't expect to see that all the time. And we, of course,
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Mother Nature conspired to screw it in the last three days of the trip. But I mean, the keys are wonderful. And if you get the fish with a guy like Will Benson or Hanson, now they're phenomenal teachers.
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And so it's great, but it has a different vibe. Water's beautiful, but you won't see quite as many permit for sure. And the tarpon are there and the bonefish there. There are other reasons to be down there. You get to ESB and you get to see a fishery, at least in my experience,
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think is much closer to what it might have been 10, 15, 20 years ago. And as we started out the conversation, very few places are anywhere near as good as they were 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. I'm assuming ESB is probably pretty close just because the pressure hasn't been as high. But Mike, you would know more about that than me. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I think every year is a little different and that's something, you know, maybe should be factored into these conversations more often. But yeah, I've noticed some changes, but I would say the number of fish.
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You know, if I had to generalize, right, I would say that I think it might have gone up, which is wild.
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And there's a lot of and that's the cool thing, right? There's a lot of unknowns there. I mean, at least in the Keys, you've got some sort of science going on. Right. Right. I have my own theories as to in that Bay when the fish spawn. And I think it's I think it's literally monthly through a certain portion of the year. But yeah, no one knows, which is why. I mean, and maybe, you know, maybe someday we will. But it could be a while. But how about the how about the plane ride in? That's a little well, you know, it is when you make that sharp turn. You hope the you hope the runway is going to come up to meet you. You know,
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have to say for these coaster, it doesn't get much easier. It's a direct this direct flight from Philadelphia to Cancun. Yeah, I think we were in the airport 15 minutes before we were met by the driver who took us to the hotel, which is a great hotel.
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And you're up early the next morning, 10, 15 minute drive to the FBO and then an hour and a half. I think it was an hour and a half flight.
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And it's great because you get to see the jungle, you see the coastline, you fly over Ascension Bay, you see the different spots that you fish and I fish in Ascension Bay, get to fly over those. Then to your point, all of a sudden the guy makes a hard bank, makes a hard bank turn and there's a runway. But that's all part of the experience.
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You know, pretty funny being in the back of the plane because as we're dropping down, you see everyone peek out. Where's the runway? Where's the runway?
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Really dropping into the jungle. Yeah, I mean, flying in from the north is equally as terrifying.
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But at least you can see where you're going. I mean, the first time I landed there a couple of years ago, I was like, obviously, tell they was getting ready to land. But I was like, where the fuck are we landing? And then all of a sudden, here comes the runway.
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But it's pretty comforting that they've been doing that right for a long time. Those flights. You know, you get older, 63, I just turned 63 and the pilots get younger. It's like now I look across, I'm watching a football game and every coach is younger than I am, which is a little bit of a problem. But our pilot was great. I mean, he had a lot of experience, but he looked at me like he was 18 years old. So I knew he was like 35 because we asked.
[01:28:32:05 - 01:28:40:10]
Real Pablo. Yeah, the kind of the gym outfit makes me a little uncomfortable.
[01:28:40:10 - 01:29:07:06]
not dressed like a pilot, right? He's not, but you know, you talk to him, you realize how confident the guy is. He's very competent. And in the flight was it was actually a lot of fun flying that altitude. You get to see a lot of things you otherwise miss. And for me, that's part of the fun of the trip, you know, experience in and of itself. It's cool because you get to see both ascension and a spear to, you know, you fly right over both and you get to see it. It's cool.
[01:29:07:06 - 01:29:45:16]
you really get the sense of his skill set when you're coming back into Cancun. Yeah. And he does. I don't know what that turn is called in the aviation world, but whatever it is, it's a it's a pretty sharp move. You know, when he drops it out of the sky and just kind of floats in and you're like, all right, he's he's pretty well dialed. He knows what he's doing, but you're right. And I expected a different approach. It's the same approach. It's a bigger airport. Yeah, I think we're all kind of looking around like, where's he going? Like the runway, 30, three quarters of the runway and it's below us. Yeah,
[01:29:45:16 - 01:29:48:12]
exactly. Yeah. You know, Michael, I want to know something you said
[01:29:48:12 - 01:29:55:00]
about because having just come from that time in the keys with Will Benson, as I think, you know, Will's now doing a lot of work for Bonefish Tarpet Trust.
[01:29:56:00 - 01:30:29:07]
Yeah. And one of the projects I'm involved with there is a food a food web study for the permit because the permit fishing really dropped off in the last five, four or five years in the keys. They put a closure on Western Rocks during what they think was a standard spawning period there, which they think is more like, I guess, like February to May or something on a full moon. And I think they're now starting to see hopefully the benefits of that. But it's pretty clear that the food, you know, the food availability in the keys is probably not what it once was.
[01:30:30:08 - 01:31:02:16]
Bonefish coming back, but the permit are sort of lagging a little bit, although again, they're better than they were a couple of years ago. But that makes me think about how intact that food chain must be in ESB and in Ascension Bay as well. You know, I know both places have co-ops lobster fishermen. I think you've got people out there that are mindful of the resource, you know, probably, you know, hope to take care of it in the sense. And it just strikes me that the food availability in spiritual center Bay is probably still really high. Maybe compare with the place like the keys.
[01:31:04:00 - 01:31:16:03]
Yeah. And it's also I think about it quite often because I've I got to witness that Bay before the Sargasm grass or Sargasso. So how people want to refer to it.
[01:31:16:03 - 01:33:51:20]
You know, it's it's funny that a stinky grass that can ruin your jewelry and take down communication lines. Right. That that, you know, in our tiny little sesame seed on the bagel world of permit fishing, right. That that we are beneficiaries could be. I'm not sure of that grass because there's no doubt some of the I think that I haven't heard it. You know, we'll hear it in a second from you guys. But some of these congregations of fish are eating what could be glass shrimp. You know, there's no I mean, I've taken it out and shaken that grass and like the crabs and those some of the tiny shrimp that end up in the back of the bay. I mean, who knows if that's there's no doubt they're following that grass around like that. You know, eyes on that. That's confirmed. But, you know, is that is that providing, you know, then are the the crabs and the shrimp that are riding the grass waves mats in. Right. I mean, there's there's a lot of times of the year that have flown down there in the past four years and just seen acres and lines, you know, where you you lose it at the horizon of that grab. And are the are the shrimp and the crabs that are riding in on that? Are they all of a sudden now starting to reproduce in the bay? You know, right. It's a great question. I mean, I know before we went down, I pulled a couple of videos of dry fly fishing, if you want to call it that surface fishing with crab patterns for permit, which I thought was it. I thought it was a joke. Yeah. These videos and watched it. And we we didn't get a lot of that. We were down there. So whether it wasn't necessarily conducive. And there wasn't a lot of Sargasso in the bay when we were there. At least I didn't see a column may have, but we didn't see much. And they were still but right. And I think, Colin, there were times when, you know, if you got in the right situation, they they come after that top water crab, which is pretty astonishing. And I think it has to be directly linked to Sargasso and those crabs are in those mats and they just get used to looking for. Yeah. Yeah. You know, learn behavior. And it's a lot like, you know, still fishing big foam flies for trout well after a hatch, whether it's a stone fly hatch or late season, like, you know, fishing foam in October when the hoppers are even not flying around. I think it's kind of like that where they remember it and and have seen it and are hungry. And I think it's definitely added to the behavior of the fish.
[01:33:53:03 - 01:34:07:06]
Yeah. Yeah. And you guys had I got to see very little of it, but you guys had some very slicked out weather. Right. I mean, when I saw some days with glass. First day we got there was
[01:34:07:06 - 01:34:26:13]
off pretty glassy when we got in the water. And I mean, that's another benefit, I guess, of what makes this place special is you get, you know, like the bonus day on arrival. And that's a quick turnaround. And, you know, everyone's shuffles and scrambles and grab your gear, get in the boats and go and we get out there and it was slick, calm and could see fish kind of everywhere. And
[01:34:26:13 - 01:34:39:01]
afternoon, luckily, it kind of a little wind picked up. It was it was actually perfect that first day. How it usually goes on your first or last day when you're not quite ready or you're leaving where it was absolutely perfect conditions.
[01:34:39:01 - 01:34:40:13]
And then the second day
[01:34:40:13 - 01:34:47:00]
about as glassy as I've ever seen it for a sustained period. I mean, it was almost all day long. Absolutely.
[01:34:48:08 - 01:35:35:13]
Which comes with its own complications, right? It's tougher to get close to this fish and everything else. But, you know, because we did have sort of ideal conditions. I swear every permit trip I've ever done, the best day is the first day. And we're not ready. And I think the permit, you know, it has to be the fishing guides. But it's like it's always I think I'm like 12 for 12 on permit trip for the best days, the first day and the best stuff might be your first up. Now, we did see, you know, over the course of the week, not just that first day, but because the weather conditions, it got tougher and tougher. But it was really I would put it this way. If the entire week was like the first day, you would not have been able to get my group before out of there. You would have had to, you know, be wacking on the beach. Crazy.
[01:35:37:03 - 01:35:42:00]
Did anybody go tarpon fishing in those conditions?
[01:35:43:08 - 01:35:56:08]
Tyler did. He was a big fan of the tarpon, the snook. And that was his first, like, I guess, permit kind of, I guess, you know, if you call it grand slam trip like tarpon permit bones.
[01:35:57:18 - 01:36:02:08]
And he went into it with a great attitude, you know, we went into it thinking like, I'm just gonna go have fun.
[01:36:03:08 - 01:36:23:03]
He caught his first permit on day one and then was kind of like, let's go do other stuff. And he was a solo boat. So, you know, had the flexibility to do that. And he would come back and be like, how'd you guys do? I'm like, oh, we didn't, you know, didn't catch anything. Saw some fish. Try to almost fed some fish. And like, how'd you do? He was like, oh, I caught so many tarpon, had a blast.
[01:36:24:09 - 01:37:10:09]
I think the snook. Yeah, the snook fishing can be quite good. And I think he caught a number of snook. And I mean, it's one of the rare places, the only other place I've ever been where you can actually do that is Ascension Bay, where you've got a shot at pretty good snook and obviously tarpon permit and bonefish. I think November down there, the snook fishing from what I've observed in past trips and what I've heard from people can be really good. And I think Tyler took to your point, Colin, he really took advantage of that. And he, you know, he seems to have avoided getting permittitis or whatever the term is. I mean, I think my guess is he just wants to catch fish and have fun. He caught a permit along the way, which is great. But I think he's avoided the plague so far. Yeah, well, good on him, right? That's usually doesn't go that way. Right.
[01:37:12:09 - 01:37:22:07]
Some of I did see a couple videos which were which were very interesting before I talk about those actually with the amazing thing to me is, you know, when it gets that slick.
[01:37:23:12 - 01:40:02:11]
It's just so rare and so nice out that you think that the fishing should equate to that. Right. But really the the fishing is the equivalent in those scenarios of, you know, 25 mile an hour winds. Yeah, I mean, it's it's just as hard to deliver what you're trying to do. Right. You know, put the fly where you want it without the fish, knowing that you're there. Right. And so you can interact with them. And so, I mean, I'm presuming that was some of the experience in that slicked out weather. It was. And I mean, Colin, you know, Colin had it. I wasn't in his boat, but I was nearby. I think called a permanent the second day, which was still slicked out. We had these huge schools and it's your story, but it was like 100 foot cast of the going away fish because otherwise they wouldn't touch it. But you should tell it because you live through that. Yeah, it was it was a funny one. I mean, we had we had endured a couple hours of what I would consider fishing or permit torture. You know, as fun as it is to see this fish floating and eating and moving all over and pushing like we're talking about, it's super hard and it's hard to get close to him with the boat. It's hard to cast to him. It's hard to not spook him for that matter. And then it's especially hard to feed him. And after a bit, it was like, you know, definitely started to lose hope. I'm not going to lie. And and I almost was like, hey, like, Aaron, let's let's go somewhere else. Like these fish want absolutely nothing to do with us. And I thought about it multiple times. But the important thing was, is we were getting reps in and especially Spain, who I was in the boat with that day. He had never been on a permit trip and saltwater fish a little bit, but he was getting so many reps. I was like, this is so special because you don't get the cast that much at fish. And and he was doing a great job at putting the fly where it needed to be. And he got frustrated and he was like, get off of the bow. And I was like, all right, I'll get up here and I'm standing on the bow. And, you know, there's it was 360 fish coming in from all different directions, feeding. It was pretty chaotic because you'd be watching harder than a single fish. It was. And you see fish, you see a school pushing in from, you know, hundred, 200, even 300 yards out sometimes. And then we'd be like, oh, shit, there's a school right behind us. But I'm on the bow and I see these fish. They were kind of watching for a while and they kind of worked from behind the boat. And we're just kind of pushing away. I think they could kind of feel the boat a little bit. We're avoiding it. And they were just kind of pushing back into the bay.
[01:40:03:18 - 01:41:03:23]
And they were far out and Aaron was like, go for it. And I was like, I mean, I'm a decent caster, but I don't think I've got that. I told him I was like, I don't think I have that. He was like, just do it. And I was like, all right, just started casting and laid it out and casted, you know, I guess the entire fly line. And actually, when I landed, I was like, I actually was right in front of them. And as I started stripping, three fish pulled off and were following it. And it was only a couple of strips in. So when the fish ate, he was still pretty far out. It was so slick that you could see the fly from that far out and it was a sinking fly and threw the crab pattern in and he just stormed up behind it and ate it. And after about a hundred reps, it was like sometimes they do it. Great point, Colin, because you could see Mike, because it was just like that, you could actually see these fish actually eat the fly.
[01:41:05:08 - 01:41:43:02]
I learned a ton because I missed multiple fish because they took it between strips and I wasn't keeping the fly as tight as I should have. And so they bump it, I miss it, they bump it again. And, you know, it sucks because you want to catch those fish, but it was a great way to learn, to be able to see the whole thing and to see the mistake. In that case, I was making, I mean, quite honestly, I think your odds of catching a permit go up when the wind goes up to a certain point. I mean, I've had easier fish and they're never easy, but somewhat easier fish when the wind's blowing 20 than when it was slipped out like it was there. But you get to see a lot more.
[01:41:44:04 - 01:42:06:22]
Yeah. And seeing the behavior, for me personally, seeing the behavior permit is like that alone is so much fun. And so it was a great experience. Yeah, I was going to say that it's like on days like that or permit fishing in general, you know, I mean, most permit fishermen who get obsessed with it or are totally okay with not catching fish, they've grasped it.
[01:42:08:13 - 01:42:15:21]
And then it kind of, I feel like it turns into just learning moments when you're permit fishing and taking every bit in from when you're watching your partner fish to
[01:42:15:21 - 01:42:29:01]
watching slipped out conditions to seeing how, you know, sometimes you feed a fish 10 feet away when it's cloudy and windy. But it's all learning and it's cool to see those different scenarios and every different type and
[01:42:29:01 - 01:44:27:02]
to get that many reps in is special and something that, you know, you can learn a ton from. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you guys got, you know, in terms of the education part of it. I mean, because if you condense everything through an average week of permit fishing down to your actual interactions with the fish, I mean, you'd be you're lucky throughout a week, maybe to get three to five minutes. Right. I mean, that's that's insane. That shows the ridiculousness of the pursuit. It sounds like you guys have gotten that in those those couple of days and I right. I mean, there's the real bummer is when you do it for a week and you're like, I didn't even I didn't even learn anything. Didn't see one. I've had plenty of those. Yeah. You know, I've faced it. I've fished a fair bit for permit. Mike in some places that you've been in Abaco, Moores Island, West, West Side of Abaco and then North Shore of Grand Bahama. You won't see nearly as many permits. You'll see big fish. I mean, very big fish. But you might spend eight, 10 hours in the front of the boat, not even making a cast. And you sort of have to enjoy that, which sounds crazy after that enjoyable, but it is, you know, because you're you know, you're playing the game at the highest level whether or not you can execute at that level, which I can't. But I know Mike, you can. And Colin's making 100 foot going away shot. He obviously can too. But, you know, if you appreciate that to actually catch one of these fish, you have to do it at the highest level, at least for me, I don't mind that I don't get that many shots because each one's precious. But yeah, when he is be really was great because it almost became like any other fishery in that you were going to make. I mean, those days, we might have made, I don't know, 50 casts, 100 cast at those fish. But you just never get, you know, at least in my experience, you just never really get that. So it was really cool. Really cool.
[01:44:28:05 - 01:44:51:08]
Yeah. And I think that's what, yeah, I mean, to your point, Greg, like I have to sometimes back it down even further. Right. Where it's like, look where I am. You know what I mean? Like, this is a ridiculous pursuit. And if you're if you're going if you're on a real blank job, right, where you're just getting, you know, you know, to get a shot might be a miracle.
[01:44:53:19 - 01:45:55:06]
But, you know, it doesn't bring you to places that suck. I mean, it's it really is pretty, pretty remarkable. And I think what both of you said, I mean, that ultimately, I think is why after I saw that area the first couple times and at that point in time was doing a lot of fishing in the Keys and Belize and had yet to move on to other species. But it was kind of like, well, if I'm going to get good at this, I need the reps. Yeah. And and then we'll always take the keys factor, which I say, you know, I think you get the reps in Mexico. The communication can be tough. Right. Right. You might not audibly get it. But in terms of auto, audible education, like you have to fish in the keys. I mean, those are some of the best. I mean, you know, the guys that are chasing permanent in the keys. They're some of the best educators period. And I think that's why I'll forever continue to go down there.
[01:45:55:06 - 01:46:29:14]
I had that exact conversation with Will Benson last week because Will said, well, how was it? I don't think he's been to ESP. He may have been to Ascension Bay. But, you know, I said, well, it was great because we got all these shots. He said, you know, and I don't think he's wrong. He says that he still thinks of the keys as being kind of the world series of permit fishing. I mean, they're in a big fish. They're tough. They get fish, too. You know, there aren't quite as many around. So it requires maybe even a more extraordinary effort to connect on any kind of a regular basis. And I think all that's true.
[01:46:30:15 - 01:47:19:18]
But as I said to him, I said, well, you're right. But how does somebody wind up here with a shot to actually catch a permit if they don't have an opportunity to get a lot of shots in somewhere else? So to me, it's like I see doing both because, you know, you go through a long dry spell in the keys, whether the fish aren't there or whatever. And then you can get reacquainted with the fun side of it by going to ESP and actually seeing fish. So I think it's all you got to vote. I mean, at least for me, my level, this you got to vote and, you know, so but I cut you off. I apologize. No, no, I was just going to say you guys, you know, like obviously got to talk to Colin a little bit. And a lot of this is in passing. So I want to explore it a little more. But you guys saw some weird behavior, too, where.
[01:47:21:12 - 01:47:25:23]
And I didn't get to see enough, but.
[01:47:27:16 - 01:47:48:05]
Was was the consensus that it was spawning behavior or that they were eating, you know, because I've seen glass shrimp down there that are so small that there's no way you're going to see what they're eating. And it's not like we don't eat, you know, enjoy a peanut. Right. So it's the same.
[01:47:49:11 - 01:47:58:02]
I mean, they could easily kick their tail when they're eating something that you could see. But what was kind of the consensus?
[01:47:58:02 - 01:48:00:07]
Because it's kind of really cool footage.
[01:48:01:12 - 01:48:17:09]
Well, you know, I debated that because I, you know, I've like most people, you know, if you get into this sport, you read everything you can about behavior and tides and so on and so forth. And and back in October, I was in the Keys and we were fishing the laid up
[01:48:17:09 - 01:49:23:20]
permit. I was with a guy named Aaron Snell, who I know I think you've met. Great. And they were laid up permit, you know, maybe a school of 50 and they just wouldn't eat. And it was right at the right when the tide was about to turn. And when Aaron said to me, listen, we're going to give it a shot because they're here, but I don't know these fish never eat. So we give it a shot. They didn't eat. And so the behavior in ESB seemed different to me because these fish had their tails up and occasionally you would get that tail wiggle, which I've learned is indicative that they're, you know, that they're eating something. The ones I saw laid up during the tide, you know, this sort of flattening of the tide in the keys weren't wiggling their tail. They were just turning on their sides occasionally. Didn't appear to be very active other than that. Whereas these fish and Collin, I mean, you had, I think it's similar experience. You'd see the tails twitching. I mean, they were doing something that wasn't just acting laid up fish. Yeah. And we saw several different types and like some were like the guides, I guess, consensus was several of the guys thought they were
[01:49:23:20 - 01:49:40:09]
spawning because they're like, they say it was like a weird shake. Like some of them, I mean, some of them look like feeding and then someone was like a weird like little and like it was a lot of movement, but not a lot of movement from the, like not a lot of acceleration from the fish. Yeah, I don't know. It was kind of weird. I kept going back and forth. It's like, yeah, they're definitely eating.
[01:49:41:22 - 01:49:42:03]
And then
[01:49:42:03 - 01:50:03:17]
each individual school kind of like had their own behavior too, or some of them that came in that we casted to didn't even care about the fly and then some were pretty aggressive, but then just didn't eat. It was weird. And then they joined up at one point and created a massive school that was like, it had to have been like a quarter mile long. And then they kind of split back up again.
[01:50:03:17 - 01:50:12:22]
I was just gonna say that that would tend to write that if they all joined up and at once that would, there has to be a spawning component of it, I would think.
[01:50:15:07 - 01:50:37:10]
Yeah, for sure. And as Colin said, I mean, it was, I mean, I've seen in Ascension Bay at times, like in July, the warm months of the summer when the smaller fish are in, I've seen schools of 75 or a hundred. I've never seen a school that was, I mean, at one point it was, I mean, Colin said a quarter mile, it was hundreds of yards long.
[01:50:38:10 - 01:50:43:19]
I've never, I've been there for 20 years. I don't think I've ever seen that.
[01:50:44:21 - 01:51:01:23]
It was, I mean, all you could do was laugh. It was like, it was mind blowing. Yeah. But I'll tell you one thing I learned on this trip was we had very similar experience to what Colin had as far as, you know, some of the schools had no interest in flies. But a couple of times when we were on those schools, the tide turned.
[01:51:03:07 - 01:51:06:17]
And as soon as the tide turned, we had that they actually ate.
[01:51:07:17 - 01:52:07:05]
So it was a really cool experience to see that. And, you know, because I asked the guy, I always asked the guy when I get up in the front of the boat, which way is the tide coming? If I can't tell by looking at grass on the bottom, you know, where are we in the tide cycle? Which direction is it coming from? And the couple of times and they actually were bitey, if that's the right word, is when the tide had changed. The tide started to move and all of a sudden they switched from kind of floating or doing whatever that weird behavior was actually being interested in the fly. So it was a it was kind of a mind blowing experience. I mean, quite honestly, the trip was worth doing for two days of seeing that many fish on the surface. Holding inside, getting shots and catching. It was such cool wild animals doing the wild animal thing that you just don't really get to see much in life. And what lines were you guys throwing at them? Were you throwing both? Everyone throwing clear tips or were they? I don't know. I don't know, Colin, were you throwing a clear tip? Yeah, I had the SA grants, I had a clear tip.
[01:52:07:05 - 01:52:34:14]
kept going back and forth to my nine weight, my 10 weight, because I was like, I kind of want to throw the nine to be softer. But then a lot of these fish, I was like, like the fish that I caught, I had 10 weight because it was, I was like, I kind of need the distance just to get to them before they got closer. But at the same time, I was like, I kind of wish I had like a seven weight, just less disturbance and throwing that thing out there without all the surface tension breaking.
[01:52:34:14 - 01:52:49:07]
you're in a muddy place and all of a sudden you start daydreaming about snowshoes for mud while permit fishing or being on a tiny boat when it's that calm so that paddleboard or
[01:52:50:07 - 01:53:33:22]
Yeah. And so mostly, no, was anybody throwing a six or seven just because that's an interesting thought process, right? I don't have any on the trip, I don't think. No, I don't think so either. I think, I mean, to me, it was almost like Spring Creek fishing for permit. Yeah. Because you had to be so precise. And it was like being in Silver Creek when they'd been feeding for three weeks on a hatch and you're there and the fish are there, but, you know, they're probably not going to eat it. And you have to try, but it was super technical and it was super visual. And because you had so many shots, I mean, I always like in permit fishing to a car crash because nothing's happening, nothing's happening, all of a sudden, boom.
[01:53:35:04 - 01:53:53:22]
And in this one, you could actually participate for an hour or two. It didn't feel quite like the car crash. It felt like technical Spring Creek fishing for permit, at least to me. Yeah, I was kind of kicking myself because I mean, we had two eats in that, like, there's probably five hours of casting.
[01:53:55:09 - 01:54:09:07]
And which it was decent, but I was like, you know, should have had more. And I didn't bring a bonefish box with me, but I was contemplating, I was like, should I just put like a 16 foot leader with a tiny, tiny bonefish fly on it and see what happens?
[01:54:10:07 - 01:54:15:15]
And I was keeping myself for not bringing, you know, a little gotcha or something, but it was.
[01:54:17:05 - 01:54:20:16]
So that's why my fly box never set.
[01:54:20:16 - 01:54:39:20]
You know what I mean? It's like constant just in and out because it's, you know, you know, the flies are going to catch them on, but it's those moments when you're like, I need something without weight. I need something, you know, do you really need 40 of the same thing? Probably, hopefully, but probably, most likely not. Right. We're not.
[01:54:41:07 - 01:55:27:14]
Yeah. By definition, there's permit fishermen in the OCD anyhow, so we tend to, I mean, I can speak for myself, like, you know, when you hear about a fly working, you can't just have one, you get it too. And they have different colors and different sizes. And before you know it, you get a dozen of each pattern and a hundred in your box and those flies will still be unused in my box when I go to my grave, I'm sure. But it's like you get, you get induced to do that. And then to Collins point, you finally have a chance where you can really work the fly box because these fish are there and they're just not eating what you're throwing. And then for whatever reason, you don't really work the fly box. So it's, you know, well, the funny thing was, is like, I mean, people kept asking me that after the first day too, because I didn't change my fly the first day. I was getting interest. I was like, it's good.
[01:55:29:00 - 01:55:58:05]
day when that happened, I threw the fly, changed 10 times, and then went back to the same fly and that's what the fish ate. Yeah. At some point it's a confidence thing, right? You got to get back to it. At some point when you get broken down hard enough, you need to get back to something that you have actually seen work. And that's what's amazing that it can that it can break you down. And you guys got pounded with rain for the rest of some of it.
[01:55:58:05 - 01:56:16:09]
We did. We, I think, we only three days, the first three days, first few days were stellar. The arrival day, the next day, unbelievable. I think we had a few cloud. By the third day, I think mostly wind and clouds. Yeah. And fourth day was the down day, I believe.
[01:56:17:09 - 01:56:42:05]
It was Monday or Tuesday. And then a lot of rain and wind and clouds. Yeah. We had about four hour, on the second last day, we had about a four hour period where the sun came out. And that was the day I got my permit. Just because the schools were where we found the first day calm, but they hadn't been fished to in two days because the weather had been crappy.
[01:56:43:10 - 01:58:13:18]
And we luckily we had that little window. And then I think on the last day was it must have rained three inches when we were out there. It was pretty extreme. But, you know, you still say to yourself, I take, listen, I take six days of rain for one day of unbelievable fishing. And we had two days of fishing and we had three days. So it was all. Yeah. Even throughout the week, even with the bad weather, it seemed like there was a lot of eats. There was broken off fish. There was the missed fish, which that's just fishing. But the opportunity was there and also heard of a lot of dry fly eats. I mean, yeah, which is pretty special, too. Even in some of the rain, it sounds like people had some dry flights. Yeah. Yeah, which is really, I mean, you can't like I said before, I didn't I thought this was kind of an old wives tale about permitting crabs on top. And I saw it happening. Just it's like I can't believe it. I mean, it comes up from underwater, sticks the eyes out. It's just it's insane. And, you know, I've asked about that. And the guys in the Keys told me that they used to get permit eating on top. And maybe they were, you know, maybe they were fish too hard, whatever that sort of gone away. I think some guys in the Bahamas told me they'd occasionally seen it. But my sense is that the SB maybe is also in Ascension Bay has more of that activity than other places. And maybe Mike, to your earlier point, it's with the Sargasso piling in there. They're just it's just learned behavior.
[01:58:13:18 - 01:58:27:16]
Is it also because in other places that no one is willing to commit to it? Right. So, yeah, I mean, I remember in the Keys a while, call it. Yeah, definitely more than 10 years ago.
[01:58:28:19 - 01:59:19:15]
Had some friends throwing just throwing committing to floating craps and work catching a couple. But, you know, it was short lived. And I think this this latest craze of it. There's a lot of people doing it and they're doing it a lot. Right. So it's not like you have this one boat out there giving it a shot. It's like, you know, it's gaining traction. And even then, to your point, Greg, you go into it thinking this is kind of bullshit, you know, like, and then you see it and you're like, oh, wow. Maybe I mean, and then all of a sudden, I mean, when I was down there, what, six months ago, I would, you know, of all the fish caught, I'd say there was a lot. I'd say 80 percent were on the surface. And that's that's insane. That's incredible.
[01:59:20:21 - 01:59:38:07]
I've read about and Mike, have you fished Australia for permit? Yes. So I read an article that was a crab hatch, if you want to call it that in Australia, where they're using for floating crabs with some frequency. Did you have that experience out there or no?
[01:59:39:09 - 01:59:48:15]
We didn't get there. We weren't on all of my trips over there. So I fished Exmouth, the Westalls and Cape York.
[01:59:50:18 - 01:59:54:17]
I would say never really were seeing enough.
[01:59:56:09 - 02:00:23:06]
Yeah. So, you know, it was like, let's just go with let's go with the known thing. I mean, I guess that goes to our prior brief conversation there is that you almost need to be in a certain spot unless the guides like pushing you on it. Where like mentally, where you're like, all right, I've caught a couple. Now let's see if we can get them up top. But yeah, I've heard of it over there.
[02:00:24:09 - 02:01:24:03]
You're making me laugh because I time my own crabs, which I'm not sure any permits right. Mine would come in at 100 feet up. They don't look particularly good. But I always bring him because I always say to myself, as soon as I catch one or two using a good fly, I'm going to switch to my fly to see what works. I never get to that point. But yeah, you get stuck in these patterns. Like now that we're having this conversation, I think with hindsight, I mentioned that I'd seen these laid up her in the keys with Aaron Snow. With hindsight, I should have thrown a floating crab at him. Why not? They weren't eating any of the traditional stuff. What's the downside? But, you know, I just didn't think fast. Might trigger something in the back of their brain. Yeah. Yeah. I've had success in the keys doing that with Will. Where he's like, use this. There's a tarpon fly that was so. Yeah, it's amazing the confidence fly. We could talk about that for hours. But one of the things I definitely want to touch on is.
[02:01:25:15 - 02:01:39:00]
And unfortunately, it was your it was, you know, you guys were there, but for the bad weather week, but I I just take a lot of it makes me smile when there's a tough weather week.
[02:01:40:19 - 02:02:14:09]
When the group kind of gets along and no one's down on it because it is completely out of your control. And I don't know, I would like to hear a little bit that because that's to me, that's just as special as, you know, as the fish and I mean, it's it's it's really cool. And I'm glad that that went down. I mean, that was right. What you don't what you don't want is is the get me out of here right away scenario. Right. Yeah. And that's that's worst case.
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I think, I mean, as a as I mentioned, the outside, we're really lucky because everybody got along great on this trip. There were two brothers down from one lives in Bozeman and the other lives in Connecticut. And I came back and hooked them up with Aaron snow on the keys because they want to go down the keys and fish. They had done it in years. So there's a lot of camaraderie. And I think, you know, when the weather was
[02:02:38:23 - 02:02:51:09]
bad, there was only one day we couldn't go out. But I mean, that day the women's probably blowing 35 or something, right? Collin me. It was insane. But, you know, we played darts and we watched everybody tie flies.
[02:02:52:09 - 02:03:16:16]
we made good work of the margaritas. It was awesome. I mean, you know, like you don't go down hoping to miss a day. But that was about as easy a missed day as you could have. I mean, it was really fun. And you do have to sort of I mean, for me personally, I've done enough of these trips. I always expect you're going to lose a dare to just the way it always is, you know, and you just get used to it.
[02:03:17:18 - 02:03:56:12]
Well, it's it's what we're trying to do, right? I mean, it's just I think I think it says it on our website. We're not trying to to do it all. And it's just it's fulfilling. It's like doing this. It's being able to sit down with you guys. I mean, we could, you know, we're already an hour plus into this. You could do I could do this for hours. It's just it's fulfilling to know that people. Right. If you if you if you take the time and match up, hopefully what what is and won't always be, but the right people that those. Relationships extend beyond the actual the actual trip. And it's I don't know, there are special times. So it's nice to make it even more special.
[02:03:57:16 - 02:04:34:13]
I couldn't agree more. I think it's it's like, you know, we can sort of tell the night before we took off for the dinner. I mean, everybody's gonna get along. It worked out. You know, it worked out great. And the other thing I'd say it was kind of fun on that down day is Jorge was with us. And he'd come in. He was out for a few days, came back in, I think. Maybe the first day he came in, Colin was on that bad weather day. Right. Yeah, exactly. And we got to hang with him and and learn a little bit about, you know, how he put the lodge together, the whole process of building it just a really cool, good guy.
[02:04:35:13 - 02:04:48:09]
And, you know, we got six hours with him in that upstairs lounge playing darts, time flies. We never would have had that. Yeah, you learn a ton from that, too. I mean, I, I think. I mean, I can't ask a bunch of questions and it was great.
[02:04:49:16 - 02:05:01:12]
Yeah, he's a real legend. I do remember when, you know, the walls were up and there was the lodge wasn't done yet, but
[02:05:03:02 - 02:05:17:08]
I said, you know, Jorge, you're gonna you're gonna hate me for this and then you're gonna thank me for this. But, you know, I'm bringing an actual group in August. And the only thing that I told him that would happen is air conditioning.
[02:05:18:16 - 02:05:31:16]
And when I got there, he he had what looked like a it was like a stress ball had grown out of his nose. I'm not joking. Like he physically had changed.
[02:05:32:16 - 02:05:45:05]
And I was like, oh, man, you're not guiding. So I think, you know, it's just amazing when I first met him to now the, you know, it's it's really impressive.
[02:05:46:05 - 02:06:40:10]
I was gonna say one comment on the infrastructure was that it was the nicest room. I've other than Blackfy Lodge, which I think you've probably been to. Yeah. Special place, special people, special place. But other than Blackfy, the accommodations in blacksmith were incredible. I mean, the AC was awesome. The rooms were pristine. You know, of course, the food is also five stars. It's like, not really hard to have a weathered out day. You can sit in long AC or have unbelievable food and great margaritas. So it's, I mean, it seemed I would I said the Jorge when I was down there was like every single aspect of that experience was awesome. And it shows that somebody thought a lot about all the details. And you don't appreciate that fully until you're stuck inside for a day.
[02:06:41:12 - 02:06:54:09]
Yeah. And I think it's because the thought process is solely from anglers, right? I mean, in people that have done it a lot. So I mean, you had once you do it a lot, you get your you get your your pain points.
[02:06:55:10 - 02:07:08:17]
And yeah, I mean, it's it's a special spot. Well, I've taken up, you know, we could do this for hours. And I know I've taken up a bunch of bunch of your time.
[02:07:10:18 - 02:07:21:10]
But, you know, one thing I like to ask everyone any any good books that you guys have been reading that, you know, because I'm always trying to add to the list.
[02:07:22:10 - 02:07:53:05]
Yeah, I'm just trying to think, you know, of course, as soon as you ask me, I'm like, God, what were the last books I just read? But I, I'm half three quarters of the way through 1929, which I would not read if I were you. It's not. Okay. You know, given the given the current market conditions and the concern over AI and geopolitics, maybe maybe wait until we're in a little bit more stable period of time to read that. And then I'm reading a book called Nexus, which is by gonna butcher his name.
[02:07:54:18 - 02:08:02:05]
Israeli writer who wrote Homo Sapien, if you read that. Oh, yeah.
[02:08:03:10 - 02:08:12:09]
Yeah, so he's got three books. This is the third. It's all about communication networks. And it's actually it that sounds very dry. But it's actually really interesting.
[02:08:13:13 - 02:08:34:14]
Homo Sapien, but I have it. It's a fact I will tell you, I mean, I love it because I'm a sapien just filled with information, lots of different areas. If you've ever read who's the guy who's the founding fish, McPhee. Have you ever read anything by John McPhee?
[02:08:37:04 - 02:09:00:10]
What's that? John McPhee book sitting on my desk right now. What's the title there? Rising from the Plains. Rising from the Plains. So John McPhee is a great writer who goes very into incredible detail on little topics that wind up being big when he once he covers him. So he wrote a book, which was pertinent to me and also would be to you, Mike, in a sense, he wrote a book called The Founding Fish, which is about the shad fishery in the Delaware River.
[02:09:01:10 - 02:09:23:10]
The reason I mentioned McPhee is he goes deep on topics and you really learn a ton. And this guy, Novol Harare or however you pronounce his name, the guy who wrote Sapien's, same experience. You learn a ton when you read it, but that might mean you read 10 pages and you got to sort of put it down and say, okay, let me absorb what I just read.
[02:09:24:10 - 02:09:38:17]
Anyhow, it's a pretty cool book. But Colin, obviously you're reading that big feed book now. I haven't just started, I don't know enough about it yet. But one of Mike's buddies who I guided this summer actually gave it to me. It's about the geology and the Rocky Mountains and whatnot.
[02:09:40:16 - 02:09:48:10]
He's got another one called, I think it's called Basin and Range, which is another one about the geology of the West with John McPhee.
[02:09:49:10 - 02:09:57:01]
He's a great writer. The other guy I would recommend actually, these two books came out a while ago. Have you ever heard of Charles Mann?
[02:09:58:10 - 02:10:15:01]
Yeah, why have I heard of? You wrote an unbelievable book, 1491, which was a book about South America and Central America and all through the Yucatan before the Spaniards came over. So it was the world that existed
[02:10:15:01 - 02:10:25:10]
talk about how there was actually a thriving culture in South Central America before we even thought existed?
[02:10:26:14 - 02:10:30:13]
Exactly. Something like a hundred million, a population about a hundred million is what I've read.
[02:10:31:19 - 02:11:25:08]
And they were very sophisticated. And they got wiped out long before the Europeans showed up because Russian fur traders in the West Coast and Portugal, the Portuguese cod fishermen on the East Coast, both introduced diseases that Native Americans had had no prior exposure to. And it sort of wiped out. It worked its way down the coast. And from what I've read, it wiped out something like 90% of the population of Native Americans, certainly in North America and probably had a lesser impact in Central America. But yeah, that's exactly the book where he talks about how sophisticated that culture was. And then 1493 is his follow-on, which talks about how the world has changed since all that happened. And I love books like that because you really learn a ton. Science, politics, economics, the whole idea.
[02:11:26:08 - 02:11:36:07]
Well, I don't know how it got by me, but I'm reading Doug Peacock's, I think it's Doug Peacock's, Grizzly Years book.
[02:11:38:00 - 02:11:43:23]
I don't know how it got by me. I'd put it out there for anyone.
[02:11:43:23 - 02:12:11:00]
with the Grizzlies like a special force member would, who was operated in Vietnam. But the Grizzlies basically saved him. So he kind of devoted. But these interactions are just, yeah, it's remarkable. I'll have to get that because I need, I have to get that because I can't read 1929 anymore. It's going to freak me out. So I'll have to read the book. I have to
[02:12:11:00 - 02:12:12:00]
say, for
[02:12:12:00 - 02:12:15:21]
operating out here, like I've learned
[02:12:15:21 - 02:12:39:22]
so much from just reading his stories about how you would actually, like when you get into a bad encounter, how you should, like, the false information out there compared to a dude who's living with him and has probably been charged a hundred times and is still around to talk about it. Like it's, it's pretty wild. But. Yeah.
[02:12:39:22 - 02:12:42:16]
I was going to say there's one book in my order called Tiger.
[02:12:44:09 - 02:12:47:19]
Oh, it's a book called Tiger. I think it's a tiger.
[02:12:49:10 - 02:12:51:09]
Okay. So you read that. Okay. Yeah.
[02:12:53:17 - 02:13:10:21]
Well, excellent. Well, I can't thank you guys enough and look forward to seeing you when we can and appreciate your time today. It was, like I said, we could have gone on for hours. So what an amazing, amazing time and hearing your stories on the trip. So appreciate it.
[02:13:11:21 - 02:13:12:11]
Well,
[02:13:12:11 - 02:13:16:22]
Absolutely. How could he be there? It was a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming.
[02:13:16:22 - 02:18:19:03]