The AAA Storage Podcast

In this episode, Paul Bennett unravels the complexities of risk and return in commercial real estate investing. He breaks down how context, asset class, deal structure, and market conditions drive performance across sectors like self-storage, multifamily, and office. Paul offers practical tools and candid advice for evaluating deals, sharing his expertise on avoiding pitfalls and building intentional, resilient investment portfolios. Whether you're an experienced investor or exploring new opportunities, this episode delivers clear strategies to help you make smarter decisions in any real estate cycle.

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Chapters
(00:00) Contextual Risk and Sector Performance
(05:00) Risk Across Asset Classes
(12:00) Deal Structure and Market Dynamics
(19:00) Sector Evaluation Framework
(26:00) Building an Intentional Portfolio

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Creators and Guests

Host
Paul Bennett
Managing Director at AAA Storage

What is The AAA Storage Podcast?

Investing in self storage gives you the fundamentals and growth you need to grow your portfolio. But skip the opportunities from golf buddies and gurus—invest in a real track record. Started by John Muhich in 1993, AAA Storage has delivered 19% IRR across 90 deals, totaling $450M in exits. Listen to our expert insights on investing from the AAA Storage team. See more at aaastorageinvestments.com.

Paul: San Antonio, Texas — all the
data would tell you right now that

it's overbuilt for self-storage.

And yet we have a project that's
blowing the doors off in lease-up,

just outside San Antonio because
what's happening in San Antonio or

United States doesn't really matter
for that self-storage project.

What matters is what's happening
five miles around that site.

Welcome to the AAA storage podcast,
your integrated real estate and

development partner, exploring all
things, self storage investing to

bring you diversified success.

Let's dive in.

Brandon Giella: All right, we're back for
our third part of our CRE series, talking

about commercial real estate investing.

We have, again, Paul Bennett, our
resident expert in real estate.

You are much smarter than me on
this, so go with me and see if

I am covering this correctly.

So the first episode in this series,
we talked about the seven different

sectors of investing in commercial real
estate, each of which of course covers

their own risk and return profile.

So we're gonna dive into that today.

But we talked about different, um,
factors that, um, help you understand the

differences between these asset classes.

And then of course, even within
those sectors and, and assets,

there's different, uh, y- you know,
profiles that we would look at,

like class A, B, and C properties.

There's core, core plus, development,
and each of these has their own

unique characteristics to them,
which we've been talking about.

So please, if you are listening to this
for the first time and haven't heard

our first two episodes in this series,
go back and listen to those 'cause

we deep dive on all of these assets.

Um, but today, we are gonna be focused
mostly on the risk and return profile

related to the context of each of these.

And so, uh, there is a downloadable
sheet associated with this episode

that you can get on our website
at aaastorageinvestments.com.

It should be in the
show notes here as well.

Please download that because this
information is overwhelming and complex,

and Paul is way smarter than us.

So download that and take a look at that.

There's a bunch of details there.

Uh, but Paul, walk us through the
way that you're thinking about risk

and return related to each of these.

And so I know you talked about
before, there's contextual risk

associated with each of these.

There's risk associated with each of
the assets within these sectors, um,

how you think about the different
classes, core, core plus, et cetera.

And then of course, when you purchase
an asset at a particular price, the

way that that deal is structured,
there's risks associated there.

And then finally, a lot of, uh, underneath
this is risk associated with time, the--

where we're at in the cycle, the general
economy, the real estate economy, if

you will, and we're trying to assess how
each of these perform under pressure.

So I'm gonna kick it over to you.

Talk to us about the, the overall
risk profile, and then we'll

kinda-- we'll deep dive after that.

Paul: Yeah, I, I think the objective
today, Brandon, is to take all the

information that we talked about in the
first two episodes and, and talk about how

you use it to make investment decisions.

I think that's really what we wanna
get to today, and kind of give people

a practical, um, view and tool as
they're making investment decisions.

And it starts with the,
the contextual risk.

We…

Two of the, of the factors that
we talked about, two of the five

factors, were, were demand drivers
and the biggest risk that exists.

Um, and armed with that information,
you ought to be able to determine, if

you're looking at a multi-family deal
or a retail deal or a hotel deal or

a self-storage deal, what environment
does this sector perform the best in?

And how does that match with what I
think the dynamics are gonna be during

the, the life or at least the first
part of the life of this investment?

It, it can also answer the question of
what environments create the biggest

challenges for this sector in real estate?

Um, you know, for office,
business formation and

employment are, are big factors.

If you're in an, an environment currently
where employment is d- is declining or

business formation has slowed, it might
not be the best time to invest in office.

Um, obviously none of
us have crystal balls.

I can't tell you what's gonna be happening
in the market in five years from now.

Um, but it's being able to, to
answer those contextual questions.

What's the market gonna be like?

And is it gonna be a headwind or a
tailwind for this particular sector?

Um, the other thing that's really
important contextually is the

specific market conditions and risk.

Do the projections in the investment that
you're looking at match the conditions?

Um, you know, if, if population
growth, inward migration, um,

and employment are important

demand drivers in multifamily.

What do those things look like
in the specific market that

the property's located in?

So it's a way to understand…

Real estate doesn't always go up in value.

Um, and, and the c- the context and
the environment that it sits in have

a lot to do with how well it performs.

And, and so this approach, looking at,
at several of these factors, gives you a

perspective and a, and a, a, a, a stake
in the ground in terms of how well does

this particular sector perform in the
context that I'm gonna be invested in.

So that, that, that's sort of the
first step in using this information

to make better investment decisions

Brandon Giella: Yeah,
that's super helpful.

Yeah, I, I like that you said, uh,
real estate does not always go up.

Paul: Yeah

Brandon Giella: I have to chuckle.

Yes.

But that, you know, it,
contrary to popular belief.

Uh, okay, so, okay, so talk
to us about these different…

uh, the way that you would analyze risk.

So of course, you've got these different
factors, you've got the different

classes, the different sectors, um, but,
you know, there's, there's the context,

there's assets, there's deal structures.

Paul: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: Walk us through that, yeah

Paul: the next thing I, I would say,
although this is not a big one, I

won't spend a ton of time on it.

We talked about the different
types of real estate.

Core, core plus, value add,
opportunistic, and development

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul: of different, um…

And, and in any of these sectors,
you can have assets that fall into

each one of those categories, right?

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul: and it's, it's linear and
maybe obvious, but core plus assets

generally have the lowest risk.

They're well-established,
Class A, um, whether it's…

I- if it's a hotel, it's a, it's
a major brand in a, in a great

market with, with barriers to entry.

If it's office, it's in Manhattan or
downtown San Francisco or, you know…

And those assets generally
Have the, the, uh, th-th-they

are, they have the least risk.

i-in order core plus would have the least
risk, core would have slightly less risk.

Or, excuse me,

Brandon Giella: It's like more risky

Paul: Yeah.

Value add would be the next sort of one
in that continuum, and that's generally

an asset that requires some degree of
CapEx and/or significant operational

improvement order to achieve real value.

So it carries a, an incremental
additional amount of risk.

You've got opportunistic, where you're
really changing the use of a property.

We talked about the idea of hotels
that aren't performing well being,

uh, converted to workforce housing.

There's a group out there, I,
I think I mentioned it on the

episode when we talked about this.

Um, they, they carry even more
risk because you're, you're, you're

actually changing, in some cases, the
use of the pro- And then development

typically has the highest perceived
risk because of construction

risk combined with lease-up risk.

You're basically building a
facility that is empty, um, and then

leasing it up once it's completed.

Obviously, you can do some pre-leasing.

And in the retail sector it's
pretty common, the banks … I- in

office, if you're developing those
two, the, the banks really won't

let you break ground until you've
leased 50% or more of that space.

So some of that gets taken
out in some of the sectors.

I think the thing that people don't
understand about development is that

there are sectors where development
is extraordinarily risky, um,

because there is real construction
risk and real lease-up risk.

Multifamily would, would be one of those.

Um, the, the, the, the incremental risk
in self-storage and small-bay industrial,

particularly the way we do it, um, is
relatively small and, and therefore

generates very high risk-adjusted returns.

And they're relatively small because
there is no construction risk.

We build a slab on grade metal building.

It is not a rocket.

And we've built over six and a
half million square feet of it.

So there, there's zero construction risk.

Um, and we've eliminated any
entitlement risk before one of

our funds ever owns the property.

Um, uh, on, on the other side, on the
lease-up risk, self-storage and small

bay because the way we build them
have such low cost on a per square

foot basis, $100 a foot, compared
to multifamily at $300 a foot.

you struggle in the lease-up, if you
blow your lease-up projection by 12 or

18 months, in a multifamily deal that can
wipe out your returns and in some cases

mean the bank winds up taking the property
back the same thing happens in a s- in one

of our self-storage developments or one
of our small bay developments, it is not

good, and it definitely impacts returns.

But it takes returns from the low
to mid-20s to the low to mid-teens.

There's a buffer because of the value
creation and development that can

absorb adverse market conditions,
uh, in self-storage and small bay.

So but that, that's
really the risk continuum.

Core plus, least risky.

Um, you're gonna pay premium
prices for core plus assets.

Core plus assets, whether w- no
matter what sector it's in, are

going to be at the low end of the
cap rate range for that sector.

Um, you ought to see some
compression in cap rates…

Excuse me, some expansion in cap
rates, um, you know, from the

core plus asset, and then that
just continues down that chain.

Um, your value add, you should
be able to buy it, you know, at a

more attractive cap rate than you,
you can a core, core plus asset.

Opportunistic assets, the same,
because there's a s- you know,

significant capital expenditure
involved, uh, post-acquisition.

And then development, a- a- again,
you're not buying based on a cap rate.

You're developing based on yield
on cost and development spread.

And again, in self-storage and small
bay, we're able to underwrite to a 9.5

to 10.5%

yield.

So imagine going out and buying a
core, core plus asset at a 10 cap.

It's never gonna happen, unless
it's a hotel, which is sort

of the market for hotels.

But, um, you know, today in, in
multifamily, um, cap rates are in the 4.5,

5 range, and developers
are developing to a 7.25%

yield on cost, gives them a two,
two point development spread.

In self-storage and small bay,
we're developing to a 9.5%

yield on cost in storage, 10.5%

in small bay, and we've got a 4%
development spread, the spread between cap

rates and the yield we're developing to.

So that's the built-in cushion
that, that really makes it work.

So what you wanna make sure when you're
looking at a deal, to kind of wrap this

up, I said I wouldn't go, go long, and
I did, um, is, is the pricing of the

acquisition in line with where it sits
on this continuum we're talking about?

You don't wanna buy a value
add asset at core plus pricing.

Uh, making a little bit
of an extreme example.

Um, so that's one of the, the things to
look at when you're, when you're looking

at where does this fall in that continuum?

Is it a, an A plus property?

Is it a B minus property?

Is it a C property based on age
and functionality and amenities?

And it…

Does the pricing match where
it sits on that continuum?

Brandon Giella: Okay.

Okay, so that's-- So
we've got overall context.

That was asset class risk,
if you wanna call it that.

Next would be, uh, deal structure risk.

So of course, all of these investments,
the land, whatever, they have to

be purchased at a particular price
for a mix of debt and equity.

There's all kinds of different ways
you could structure this kinda deal.

You could, I don't know, go public
and become a trillionaire based

on how you structure things.

Uh, so how do you, with that in
mind, think about the, the deal risk?

You know, the, the h- how do you structure
things well so that you can kind of, uh,

reduce that risk as much as possible?

Paul: Th- th- there's a
lot to talk about here.

We'll, we'll just kinda
fly over it real quickly.

The first thing that
comes to mind is debt.

You know, debt is a multiplier of
returns, but it also can, can increase

the downside in the wrong environment.

So how leveraged is a particular
project, um, has a lot to do with the

inherent risk in a particular investment.

And understanding the debt and the debt
structure, uh, and the cost of money.

One of the problems in multifamily
today is that you're buying properties

at a four and a half or five cap,
and you're borrowing money at five

and a half to six and a quarter, so
you actually have negative leverage.

The, the yield that you're getting
from the property is less than

of borrowing, and it's one of the
reasons why the market's slowed

down in an environment like this
because you can't make deals work.

You can't make the numbers work.

Um, but understanding
the debt's important.

to context and, and sort of the
factors that we talked about.

When you look at the projections, both
operating and exit, do they make sense

in the context that you're investing
in and the mar- the, the market

context that you're investing in?

So there's a sort of macro.

Where is the country?

Is, is, you know…

A- a- and then there's
the specific market.

Um, uh, I said this on multiple podcasts,
but, know, San Antonio, Texas, all

the data would tell you right now
that it's overbuilt for self-storage.

And yet we have a project that's
blowing the doors off in lease-up in,

in just outside San Antonio because
what's happening in San Antonio or

United States doesn't really matter
for that self-storage project.

What matters is what's happening
five miles around that site.

And each of these types of real
estate have similar, d- but similar

dynamics in terms of what impacts them.

But when you look at, you know, if
they're projecting 5% year-over-year

rent growth, and we're in an environment
where the economy has slowed unemployment

is growing and household formation is
stagnant in the market you're in, that's

a pretty aggressive assumption to assume
that your rents are gonna grow 5% a year.

So understand how the projections
sit within the context.

The other thing is exit cap rates.

Um, I can make any deal work if I project
to buy it at a six cap and sell it for a

five cap Why do they think they're gonna
get a five cap in five or six years?

What, what, what is their justification?

What is, what's, what do they think
is gonna happen in the market, and

is it believable that it's gonna
compress cap rates 100 basis points?

'Cause like I said, y- you
know, the, anybody can make

a set of projections work.

Uh, they can make the, the, the
projected returns look attractive.

The question is, are those returns
for a piece of real estate in

that sector reasonable given the
context and the dynamics of that

particular piece of real estate?

But one of the reasons that, that
grocery anchored shopping centers

consistently perform well it doesn't
matter what you can buy online.

I mean, people can buy
groceries online now.

They can buy…

But they can't get
their nails done online.

Um, they can't go sit down…

Well, I guess theoretically you could.

You could do a Teams call.

But the, the, uh…

And, and 95% of the country
will never buy groceries online.

They're gonna go to a grocery store.

So, you know, the, the, the demand
drivers for that type of real estate

You know, make it a very
consistent performer.

W- w- w- unlike in the same sector, malls.

You know, are always gonna go to a
neighborhood shopping center to buy

groceries, go to the drugstore, pick up
a prescription, get their nails done, all

the typical tenants you see in a, in a…

But they're not necessarily
always gonna go to the malls.

When, when I was younger,
malls were everything.

Today, they're, they're, you
know, out of favor in, in, uh,

in, you know, in many instances.

Brandon Giella: Yeah

Paul: under- understanding the context
and the dynamics of that particular sector

in the reality of the environment that
you're invested in, um, and, uh, and,

and, and understanding what the, the
biggest risk are, how prevalent are they

at this point in time, what are the demand
drivers, how strong are the demand drivers

globally and in that specific market.

So, uh, I think, I think those are,
th- those are deal structure things

that y- you can use the information
that we've put in this four-page

report and that we've talked about
over these last three episodes to help

you make better investment decisions.

Brandon Giella: What comes to mind
as you were talking is two things.

One is it's kind of thinking about
it like in concentric circles.

Like, you've got the headline, you know,
economic growth of the US and, you know,

people talk about the stock market and
market's not the economy and so on.

But then you keep drilling down
and get closer and closer and

closer down to very specific local
markets, geographically speaking.

But then within those markets, you've got
very specific asset classes and sectors

and e-every single one of these matter.

That is related to the second thing
that, that came to mind when you were

talking is in business school when
they were teaching us to, you know, go

through a 10-K and financial projections
and all this kind of stuff, and it

was basically read the footnotes and
you'll get the real story, you know?

It's basically don't, don't
pay attention to all the, you

know, other stuff around it.

Like, look at the very, very specific
cases that somebody's making for this

or that number that's in one specific
cell within the model, you know.

And that kind of stuff is kind of where
you're getting at is what it sounds like.

Paul: Well, I mean, I, I, I was…

Th- there are also black swan events
that can kinda change everything.

The Great Recession that
happened in 2008, 2009,

Brandon Giella: Yeah

Paul: are circumstances where the
country can be in a more difficult

economic environment, and a particular
market may not be experiencing that

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul: level as the rest of the country.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm

Paul: but, but when you get
a, a black swan event like the

Great Recession, it wasn't…

It, it, it was…

It…

There, there was not a market.

Real estate shut down.

you know, you couldn't get it financed.

The, the values plummeted, and
you just had to be able to wait

until the conditions change.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul: matter what sector you were in.

But, uh, I think the point is, is that
evaluate a, an investment, uh, in real

estate not only based on the projections,
um, and, and expectations of a sponsor,

but also based on the particular
dynamics of that sector and how the

contextual environment affects them.

Um, because it's gonna play a
part in how that asset performs

over a five to eight-year period

Brandon Giella: It's a lot of anal-
analytical work to, to figure that out.

So, okay.

So I wanna move on to the last
part, which is, you know, thinking

about the, the sense of time, and
this is covered mostly in this…

We've got another chart here, um, or
another table called Relative Sector

Performance, which looks at the seven
sectors on the, the left side, uh, column.

And then we've got five factors related to
each of these and how they would perform.

And we deep dived on this on
episode two within this series.

But I wanted to get your, your take on how
you think about risk in that, you know,

from that perspective within that table.

Paul: we've done is to try to make
a practical application of all this

information that we've talked about for

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul: and it really is sort of
five different attributes of the

contextual environment and how each
of the sectors performs or stacks up.

So the first one is how, how defensive,
how well does this asset perform

in a recessionary environment?

And I'm not gonna go through
each one individually,

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Paul: two highest performers are
medical office and self-storage.

The two lowest performers are
offices and hotels, and everything

else kind of falls in the middle.

Um, office and hotel are on the low end
of the range in terms of recessionary

performance, and that's because in a
recession, people have less disposable

income, so they're less likely to go
away for the weekend to stay in a hotel.

Uh, i- if you're in a recessionary
environment, em- employment is declining,

the demand for office space is declining,
and therefore doesn't perform very well.

Um, multifamily and, and industrial
perform at the high level, and

self-storage and medical office very high.

Uh, the next one is income stability.

If, if, if you're investing for
current income, if you're…

Not dependent on would be the right word,
but if your investment objective is to

get a quarterly or monthly check in the
mailbox, um, y- how, how stable is the

income stream in each of these sectors?

The highest is medical office.

Longer term leases with
high grade, uh, credits.

Um, but also industrial, self-storage,
and multifamily are ranked relatively

high in terms of their income
stability, and the other three

categories are are, are moderate to
low, with hotel being the lowest.

Um, operational complexity is a variable,
um, that can affect asset performance.

The more complex it is operationally,
the more expertise your sponsor

better have, uh, in that
particular operational environment.

The two lowest operational complexity
are industrial and self-storage.

Uh, the highest is hotel, um,
and then the others all kind of

fall into the moderate range.

Uh, the next, the next step is, uh, or
the next factor is institutional interest.

Why does that matter?

more institutional interest there
is in a sector, first of all, the

easier it is to sell an asset.

second of all, that level of
institutional interest and the

dollars chasing that particular sector
particularly in the right markets, to

compress cap rates and increase value.

So it becomes an exit, uh, sort of issue.

Uh, there are three sectors that, that
score very high in institutional interest.

That's multi-family, medical
office, and industrial.

Um, the, the next sort of strata
there is self-storage again.

It's, it's a high level of institutional
interest and growing, probably growing

significantly in terms of the amount
of institutional dollars investing

in a sector than any other sector.

Um, the others kind of fall into the,
the, uh, the moderate range with office

because of where it is in its sort
of evolution, and we've talked a lot

about the, you know, work from home,
uh, trend that was created in COVID.

Uh, relatively low institutional
interest in the office.

The last one, and it's one of the major
reasons people invest in real estate,

um, is as a hedge against inflation.

Uh, there, there four or five of the seven
ca- uh, sectors fall into the high, the

strong or very strong in terms of their
ability to, to hedge against inflation.

The highest, again, is self-storage.

Um, and it, it's, it's rated
very strong in terms of how it

performs, uh, versus inflation.

Um, multi-family, r- hotel,
and, uh, and medical office and

industrial all perform very well.

Uh, as well, the office and retail
sort of on the moderate side.

a- and one of the other things that
we talk about, we go, go back to

the, the sort of different stratas
of types of assets within any sector

Storage performs very well in a
deflationary environment because it's

basically a month-to-month lease.

So the ability to raise rents, um, in
the, in the short term and grow value

in the short term is very strong.

When you add the development, and we've
talked about the fact that small-bay

and self-storage, which both perform
very well in str- in inflationary

environments, existing assets will,
will keep pace with inflation.

When you add the additional margin
that you can create, the value that

you can create developing those two
types of assets, it now not only keeps

pace with inflation, but it grows
the buying power of your dollars.

It outpaces inflation, which existing
assets, if you look at the data, there

are periods of time, two to three
period- years, periods of time, where

in most all of these asset classes,
rent growth will outpace inflation.

But if you look at any five- to
ten-year sector, it, it outperforms,

then underperforms, then outperforms,
then performs at the level.

And over any reasonable holding period,
five to ten years, everything else

basically keeps pace with inflation.

And I've said this before, um,
I want a portion of my portfolio

that's growing the buying power of
my capital, not just maintaining

the buying power of the capital.

So the combination of a sector that
performs very well in a recessionary

environment and developing that
product, which adds margin and

therefore return, can allow you
to outpace inflation, which I

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Paul: should ultimately be the objective

Brandon Giella: Which is to say there's
a reason you guys do what you do

Paul: Yeah, it's, it's the fundamental
reason why, um, we've migrated.

We could do a lot of things, but it's,
it's why we focused and, um, invested

our own money alongside our investors.

Um, and, and every day, uh, get
up to, to, uh, be a little bit

better than we were yesterday

Brandon Giella: So assume we have a,
an accredited investor listening to

this show, and they've listened to
this episode and the two previous,

looking at this guide, trying
to understand these concepts.

What do you-- What, what advice
or wisdom do you have for them?

What's the takeaway?

What do you, what do you
want them to walk away with?

Paul: I think most high net worth
investors look at deals in isolation.

Um, and it, and it's
sort of what shows up.

Like, they, they got
approached by somebody like us.

Um, and so they're looking at…

Or they're invested in multifamily
because their friend did or, or, you know,

uh, the, the old saying, "Everybody's
gotta have somewhere to live."

Somebody said that to me today at lunch.

Um,

but I, I think it's really important
to understand how each sector in the

real estate industry is different and
performs well or poorly in certain

environments based on the demand
drivers, um, and the, the, the, the other

dynamics associated with that sector.

So I, I think the takeaway
is broaden your lens.

You, you don't have to be an expert
in all these sectors, just understand

that they're inherently different
and they perform differently i-

in, in, in the same environment.

And so don't just look at the deal.

Build your portfolio intentionally,
and build it based on the time period

that you're going to be invested
in and how a particular sector

performs in the current environment

Brandon Giella: This becomes a template or
a cheat sheet for you to be able to grade

next time you're on the golf course and
somebody comes to you with a great idea.

You pull out your laminated version
of this chart that you have in your

wallet and you go, "Wait a sec.

Let's talk about this risk, okay?

Hang on

Paul: I- if I pulled out a laminated
version from my wallet, I'd have to have a

telescope to read it, but, um, but, but…

No, I,

Brandon Giella: There's a
lot of information here.

Paul: it, h- hopefully it's, hopefully
it's, it, it, all this is a little

bit conceptual, but the objective
was to understand how different types

of real estate relate to each other,
um, and, and use that understanding

to make better investment decisions.

And hopefully, I, we've, I've
had a ton of fun doing this.

Had a ton of fun putting it together,
doing a little bit of the research, and

I really do think that we, we, we've,
we offer lots of different information

that you can download on the website
or, or you can get from the show notes.

This is my favorite piece so far.

Uh, I just think it's super valuable
as a conceptual, contextual backdrop

to evaluating investment opportunities

Brandon Giella: That's right.

That's right.

Knowledge is power, and in this case,
a lot of this information that you've

been delivering the last couple of
episodes for sure helps people make

better decisions, which puts money
back in their pocket, which is great.

Paul: Yep.

At the end of the day,

Brandon Giella: Well,

Paul: it's about

Brandon Giella: well,
Paul, thank you so much.

This is, again, just, uh,
tremendous information.

I know from 40 years of doing this and
millions and millions of dollars of

development, uh, you've learned a thing
or two, and you're able to put it together

into a nice package for us, uh, amateurs,
us, us mere mortals to understand.

Paul: yeah, it's, it's really you
always say such nice things and

it's not really true, but I, I take,
I think one of my objectives in

doing this is there is a dumb tax
to be paid, um, when you, when you

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Okay

Paul: it and you don't know.

And if by sharing some information
and encouraging people to dig a little

deeper and think a little harder, uh,
they can leverage all the bruises and

cuts and, you know, things I've gotten
over 40 years and avoid paying some of

that dumb tax, then this'll be worth it,

Brandon Giella: That's right.

That's right.

Okay.

And, uh, I, I, I love it.

I wanna avoid the dumb
tax, so this is great.

Well, Paul, thank you very much
for this, uh, as always, and I'm

excited for the next episode.

We'll see you then

Paul: A- always enjoy it, buddy.