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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
Brynley Halverson. Brynley is Chicago-based non-binary trans femme actor and writer whose work centers queer and trans stories. They're an artistic ensemble member at Lifeline Theatre and a founding member of Astral Stage Collective, where they co-created and performed in original immersive works like Stardog and The Space Between. Trained at Roosevelt University's CCPA and represented by Shirley Hamilton-Tallent,
Brynley has built a decade-long career on Chicago stages, from Backroom Shakespeare Project to Raven Theatre, Midsummer Flight, and many others. I've also had the pleasure of getting to work with Brynley on my short film, Apolitical, so it was
a lot of fun to get to talk with them. We chatted about shifting from waiting to be cast to deciding to make your own work, and what Brynley has learned from co-writing and why developing immersive theatre has helped unlock new creative mindsets for them. We also got into the anxiety of acting dry spells and the joy and relief of having a creative practice you don't need permission to do or to monetize for that matter so if that stuff
Mishu Hilmy (01:51.434)
interests you stick around. You could learn more about Brynley on Instagram at bralverson and I'll have more info about them in the show notes. Without any further delay, here's a lovely conversation with me and Brynley.
I've had a really interesting year, I'm, you know, an actor, primarily. I've been an actor in Chicago professionally for 10 years. And I have had less work this year than I normally would, which in some ways is true for everyone and in other ways isn't. And along with that, I have also been
dipping further and further into being a writer. And so that has been an interesting trade-off in that I don't feel like navigating towards one and away from the other. But what is really interesting that I've noticed is that now that I have this, I have a tap into my creativity that I don't need anyone's permission for. am much more at peace with.
a little bit of a dry spell acting wise. Whereas in years prior, when I might've had a dry spell, I would've been so anxious, so self-conscious, just trying, focusing so hard on getting the next gig. And I think it's because acting is a weird art form, especially, I primarily do theater, and that's like, you kind of can't sit in your room and be an actor. Whereas like writing or lots of other things, painting, you know, whatever, that's something you can...
You don't need anyone's permission to do it. You can just do it. And it doesn't matter if you never sell a painting, you are still a painter. And so that's been an interesting thing I feel like that writing has unlocked for me is I feel like a little bit less of the scarcity mindset when it comes to my acting work.
Mishu Hilmy (03:37.966)
It's, relate, I relate a lot because it's similar in the acting background of like just years of needing to be chosen, right? It's like that thing of like the, the acting craft requires an ensemble and an audience. You could practice and rehearse monologues in your apartment all day. That's fine. Totally valid. But it's found that there was a lot of insecurity and like waiting, auditioning, like will they choose me? And then making different rounds and different callbacks and then like it being totally out of control. And then when I moved to writing producing, it's, um, there's that.
No, it's like a different kind of, it's an act of faith as well of like, can, I'm all right. I can have creative outlets that aren't always predicated on being selected.
Yeah, yeah, and it's like, obviously that dynamic exists anytime you're trying to be a professional artist, like with writing, you know, obviously it's like, you can write a play, is anyone gonna read it? Is anyone gonna produce it? You know, that's the thing, but it's like, you can be alone in your home and write a play, but you cannot be alone in your home and be in a play. You know what I mean? But so yeah, it's just different. It's a different energy.
Yeah, this might sound like a naive insight, but I was talking to my partner about this last night and specific to writing. Like I always associated writing, like painting a canvas alone in your studio and writing the process wise is similar. But if you want to put it out there or publish it or distribute it, there's a process and then there's editors. So I never thought of writing as a collaborative endeavor, but as soon as you start introducing things like editors, it loses that.
quote unquote, purity of just being a singular sort of source there.
Brynley Halverson (05:10.146)
Yeah. Well, and that's actually interesting that you mentioned that because the, big bulk of the writing work that I have done thus far has actually been collaborative. It's been, I've been a co-writer, which is in and of itself its own beast. And that kind of just like, I mean, I sort of just fell into this collective of people that we've kind of been co-writing with and it just works. Like there's a ton of people who I feel like are.
incredibly talented and people who I enjoy who I would not be able to do that with. And so to have found several is unique, I think.
Is it predominantly playwriting or is it a mix of prose, poetry, screenwriting? What's been the sort of the collective or the group projects or project that you've been working on?
Yeah, so, so far it's been playwriting. Yeah. And it kind of arose through a show that I did a couple of years ago. It was kind of, you know, classic artist's story, just sort of like lightning in a bottle. We worked on a project together and then we wanted to make more things. And so it was a project that I did where then the playwright reached out, she was writing another play and reached out to the cast from the previous one, because it was a world premiere and we had had a good time kind of crafting it in the room together.
And so then the five of us created an immersive play called Stardog that premiered at RhinoFest a couple years ago. And then from there, we just found that we really liked making plays like that. And so then we made another immersive show that we're currently in the process of writing. That process has been a little bit longer, but yeah, it's been a really interesting thing though, not only co-writing, but writing an immersive play.
Brynley Halverson (06:51.444)
And specifically the type it is is where, like, for the Space Between, there are four different tracks. So there's four characters. As an audience member, you would show up and you would be assigned to one of the four characters. And then you follow that character throughout the play. So you're basically watching your own one-person show that intersects and interweaves with the four other shows that are happening simultaneously. And so, but so from a writing perspective, it's like,
We're actually writing four plays, not just one, which is why it's taking a long time.
Yeah. Yeah. that's so fascinating. And I think with immersive, there's other elements of interactivity too, where it creates a bit of openness or variability that can't necessarily be hard written.
Yes, and that is one of the difficult things to kind of like capture on paper. think we're kind of careening towards probably needing to do some kind of workshop with invited people where we kind of figure out what some of those moments are. Cause you know, we have, we have our own ideas of what it could be or what it will be, but you get a bunch of humans in a room and there's going to do a thousand things we're not expecting them to do. so.
Yeah, and especially for this, it's like we want there to be near the climax of the play. We want there to be the opportunity for the audience to kind of like, for lack of a better term, like self-actualize in a way. And, you know, for there to be a moment where their main character is at a loss and the audience kind of comes together to help them somehow, which could be really, really cool and powerful. And I mean, anyone who's ever been a part of a play with any sort of audience interactivity.
Brynley Halverson (08:26.53)
probably knows how difficult that might be to achieve.
Yeah. Especially if you have actors in the audience, because then actors are confronted with the decision of like, do I play this? Do I just like go with my acting?
Right? Or, or. I never like being an audience participant in anything. I'm like, don't talk to me.
that's great. Like I think earlier this year I read a book of essays called De-centered Playwriting, which sounds like the work that you're doing, which is, know, de-centering from a single singular authorial voice. And one of the challenges I've learned through that process is like de-centered playwriting fundamentally fundamentally takes longer because of whether co-writers or co-collaborators or getting input from the community. at the sort of practical level,
You know, what has been the co-writing experience been? you sort of committed to chunks or pages? Are you passing them back and forth? Like what's been working and what has worked in the past versus not worked.
Brynley Halverson (09:23.448)
Yeah, so it's been a really interesting experience. Basically the way it's been working for us is that each of the tracks has the person who will be playing that character as kind of the lead playwright for that script. And then we have one person who, a fifth person who is the kind of head writer for the whole project. so it also, I mean, it's kind of different person to person, right? So like,
For me and the head writer collaborating on my character's script, there are times where she will write something and then we'll look at it and pick it apart. There are times when I'll write something and we'll look at it and pick it apart. Or there are times where we'll sit together on a call and kind of build it together. And so it's really varied. Whereas some of the other collaborators might have a little bit more of one and a little bit less of the other. So like I know some of them don't write as much of their own, they more...
craft things that she has written. But for me, it's been a very kind of 50-50. There are things we've built together and things we built separately that we then come together to hone. But then, you know, there are also, because of the, we call them connection points, because these four plays intersect, there are some scenes, actually this is a...
I should have said this earlier. There are some scenes that are a collaboration of two, it's me and the head writer, and then there are some, if there's a two person scene, suddenly now this is a three person collaboration, and then there's one scene in the play with everyone. And so it's like, we all kind of touch that. And so from a co-writing perspective, we kind of give everyone agency over their own script. So like, if people need input.
I'm happy to provide it, but at the end of the day, I know that that's just my input. don't have authority over the other people's solo stuff, if that makes sense.
Mishu Hilmy (11:14.454)
Yeah, that makes sense. Totally. And like for you writing wise, I imagine you've done some, some in the past, but kind of re digging into it. What's it been like given that you have spent 10 plus years performing and acting and like, how has that maybe manifested itself or changed or inspires the way you approach just the writing in general.
Yeah. I mean, I think what that, you know, experience has given me is just a really strong idea of what I like and what I don't like. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm writing things that I find interesting and that I want to see. I mean, and I know, you know, a lot of people who are performers who then dip into writing or any sort of production really will say that something's similar. But for me, it's also...
You know, I mean, I look at as a, you know, as a trans person, as a queer person. and I'm, those are two parts of my identity. I'm very passionate about. look at the plays being produced and the movies being made. And like, I don't see a lot of people like me. I just don't. And so, and it's not because we're not here and it's not because we're not offering interesting takes at the material being produced. It's just kind of a cultural.
disconnect. And so one of the things that really drives me is writing stories and characters that I haven't seen reflected in other media. Yeah, like my character for The Space Between is very similar to me. They're also a non-binary trans femme. And it's really interesting. They have a romantic relationship with one of the other characters who, for the course of the play, sticks to the label of straight for himself.
And kind of like my character grapples with that and like what that means and like how in some ways that almost affirms part of my identity, but it also feels really limiting and like you're kind of not acknowledging the queerness of this relationship, which is something that I really love, you know what I mean? And that's the sort of thing that I have experienced a lot in my real life that I've never seen depicted in media, you know? And so just that as an example of like, you know, it...
Brynley Halverson (13:25.398)
I am passionate about writing things that I haven't seen other people writing about.
Yeah, and it's also inspiring because it also shows that nuance and the dilemma of being in a relationship or dynamic like that, given that some people hold on to these very literalist approaches to sexuality or gender, just being a person. And then if someone who identifies as straight is in this type of relationship or dynamic, it's like how...
the cultural programming that they hold onto this identity versus opening up to like, well, it's kind of porous. And if you think about any sort of, mean, yeah, I just think anyone who's not thinking about queerness every day is like missing out.
I know. Well, it's like, and especially it's like once you not only acknowledge trans people, but specifically once you acknowledge non-binary people that we exist, it's like all of the other stuff kind of starts to fall away. You know what I mean? yeah, and it's funny because it's like people are so beholden to their labels.
in a way that is limiting, but also language is powerful and important. And, for us in some cases, like having that label is really useful in understanding yourself. And so, yeah, it's just interesting.
Mishu Hilmy (14:43.916)
Right. Yeah. I think also like it's, it's, the inability to navigate discomfort and how that discomfort manifests into like hatred of others, probably coming from a hatred of self. Cause it's like the, the inability to like self-regulate your process, like the discomfort of people who don't think like you behave like you live, you identify like you. it's, just think it stems from like, you know, discomfort that manifests in a very, very ugly.
100 % and like it's discomfort and it's also like I think people who are uncomfortable around queerness or transness it's often because it's like you're looking at something that you have internalized isn't allowed you know what I mean it's like oh I learned that in order to be a man I cannot express myself in X Y or Z ways otherwise I'm not doing it right and so
to see someone, you know, assigned male at birth, not live by those enforced standards, it threatens your own accepted internalized status quo. You know, and similar for, it's not just a toxic masculinity thing, it's women too. mean, that's why there are so many, you know, trans exclusionary radical feminists. I mean, it's like, they have internalized all these things from the patriarchy of like,
rules of what being a woman is. And so to see someone else claim it who isn't trying to fit into all those perfect boxes, that threatens the reality that they've accepted. so they can't have that, you know.
Yeah. mean, you know, it's, we, I mean, we don't have keep talking about it, but it's sort of like a biological literalism. it's, it's also like, it's these like cultural reinforcements that are so exhausting. Cause it is like, it's based on the culture, like a gender people in Scotland wore skirts for much of history. And that's part of masculinity. So it's like this.
Brynley Halverson (16:36.334)
based
Mishu Hilmy (16:45.63)
frustrating and exhausting, of like narrow focus on what it is. And also in terms of like toxic masculinity, so many things that are human and self-regulating are said to be queer or gay. It's like dancing, sharing how you feel, you know? Yeah! Like all these things that are really good for the soul are like, no, don't do that.
I know. And it's crazy. And to your point, it's like every culture on earth, the norms of what is considered masculine or feminine has flip-flopped in every which way. And I mean, yeah. And there's so many things too that it's like only things that we consider feminine today, not only were men doing that in years past, but it's like many of them women weren't even allowed to do. know, they're like, it's all, it's just all made up. And if you have any understanding of like,
world history or fashion or anything. It's just, it's so clear. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the path of least resistance, right? It's easier to kind of commit to an identity and like, yeah, all right. Instead of expanding it, know, and I'm not, everyone's living their own life, but it is, it is unfortunate that it prevents empathy or kindness and also stories from being shared. it's, it's, you know, it's, it's rough to not see that out there, or they just follow the same tropes of these plot points must happen, you know, death, they must morally die for the writing.
Has that been pretty engrossing or do you still find a bit of curiosity of like, I might go for some auditions that you're looking at, have you been pretty committed recently to the writing?
Brynley Halverson (18:19.374)
Um, no, yeah, like I said, I definitely am not, I don't feel like I'm navigating away from acting at all. And yeah, it's an interesting, it's just been an interesting year. The, the dry spell is always like that. And like, you know, in some ways this year, I feel like I have as an actor, have experienced momentum with some of the opportunities I've had. Like I've, you know, had really exciting auditions and callbacks for theaters and for directors that I've never worked with before that I'd like to. And I feel like.
compared to my experience as a younger actor, I feel like I'm really only going out for things that I'm interested in now, which wasn't the case for a long time. I feel like everyone, you prove to yourself in your early 20s that I can work constantly if I want to, and I no longer want to. But I wanna...
make it clear that it still has been something I've wrestled with. I've been auditioning throughout the year and the work just hasn't been there. So I would say I'm still very much fingers in both pies, but the writing has been a little bit more where a lot of my energy has gone the past year.
Yeah. think it's an interesting trade-off, whereas you develop your point of view as an artist and discernment, it eliminates opportunities that you might've sought when it was just like, just want to, you know, a practice sharpen the saw, dip and get my feet wet. And now it's like the trade-off, the price is, well, I don't know this production company or I don't know this team or this play feels very nice. And it's like the 21st century. Why are we remounting this?
I know, oh so often. So often. And it's so crazy too because like, and maybe it's just that I'm getting older and jaded, but I'm like, it didn't used to be this way. especially living in Chicago, like, I feel like we're, I've always felt that our collective identity, especially in the theater scene has been like, oh, we're not.
Brynley Halverson (20:19.564)
just like how towing to commercialism like New York is, we're like doing the edgy, like new, risky stuff. And I see that stuff less and less these days. And it's cause everyone's fighting to be, stay alive, but like all the theaters, no theaters are doing well. And so, but yeah, it's just an interesting, it's interesting to see the tide sort of turn in that way.
Yeah. And you know, how much of it's action reaction, also like, think this might, I think it's kind of silly to say, but much like how artists feel the insecurity of the actor feels the insecurity, these institutions are confronted with the insecurity of needing patronage. And it's like, well, what, how do I maintain patronage if I got a lease, you know, that's five, $10,000 a month. And that's the financial aspect that they're navigating. just is unfortunate when sort of like the, the boot straps of.
capitalism or like, hey, put on another musical that's guaranteed, quote unquote.
I know, but that's the crazy thing, right? Is that, you know, they, these bigger equity houses are focused so much on their subscriber base, which is maturity, know, older white, straight and cisgender. And they're choosing their seasons out of what they think will appease those, but those people, and not to be morbid, but like those people are not going to be around forever. And it's like.
what's going to happen then? Because you've spent no time or energy or money trying to energize a younger subscriber base. And so when your older subscribers aren't paying anymore, what's going to happen to your theater? know, and from my perspective too, it gets me really fired up because I, in undergrad, I studied musical theater and that was like very much like my early experiences doing theater and you know, I was raised on musical theater. So I get kind of fired up about it, but it's like,
Brynley Halverson (22:19.874)
And it just boggles my mind some of these shows that keep getting done and without much new perspective. know what I mean? Like, and particularly as a trans actor, like who's trained in musical theater, we really are not being seen in those things. Like, you know, I can think of probably on one hand, the, you know, trans performers in Chicago who like regularly work in that.
part of the industry and it just boggles my mind because to me is such a it would be such a boon to any of these dusty crusty old golden age musicals. Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, we are gonna do the music man because we think all of our subscribers want to see the music man for the 50th time. It's like, well, they've seen it 50 times and so why
wouldn't it be this incredible opportunity to like maybe cast a trans feminine person as Marion and hear someone sing that music in a different vocal register and actually like experience it sonically in a new way. Maybe this story that you've been familiar with for decades and decades, you might gain a new nugget because they cast someone different. It seems so simple to me and I love
some dusty crusty old golden age musicals. I don't want them to die, but like why not find something new? And it just feels like people aren't interested in that.
Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, that's like, that's like the money and the risk aversion. And it's this sort of toxic concept of producibility, which is sort of like, it's like, if we do it, if we do this, if we, you know, commission a young trans or queer writer or ensemble, like, I don't know how producible this is because who, wants to see that versus like, think, yes, it's great when these older shows are remounted and they do open up more inclusive casting.
Mishu Hilmy (24:23.438)
but at most or at worst, it's just sort of a superficial kind of change. And at best it is transformative. But I think a couple of years ago, I saw 1776, that was all femme and a non-binary cast, but it's like, this is play about the founding fathers. Like why not hire 20 femme trans non-binary folks to commission a new work and not being George, oh, it's George Washington, but he's a woman or whatever.
Yeah, or like and also I feel like the trend is to result that it's it's becoming very trendy to cast cis women as men. Yeah, but you're not seeing that be that opportunity being extended to trans people. Yeah, it's frustrating, right?
Yeah
That's the beauty of generating your own work and much like the institution dealing with patronage, it's also the enoughness. And I think that's what makes all arts hard is I think it's ultimately your job to define what is success and what is enough versus I think institutions become institutions and they're like, well, we must last forever. It's like, don't know, maybe if more of these kind of things can't sustain their model, then it's new generations of smaller new Steppenwolves or that type.
Totally.
Mishu Hilmy (25:40.972)
And then like when it comes to say writing or acting, do you also find that you're thinking of producing or whatnot? Or is that something that's maybe later down the line or you're currently in the midst of it?
Yeah, so, yeah, short answer is yes. The longer answer is, I mean, so for with this kind of writing collective that I've been a part of, you know, the first play we did was, you know, self-produced and this one that we're currently writing would theoretically probably be self-produced. So that's something I'm definitely thinking about in like a long-term sense. One of the other things that happened for me creatively this year was I joined the artistic ensemble at Lifeline Theater.
I'm in Rogers Park and so I feel like I have been, for the first time, of like on that side of production and that organization, the way it functions, the artistic ensemble kind of functions in place of an artistic director. And so, you know, we are as a collective making decisions about what gets programmed, you know, different decisions about the artistic and business direction of the organization. And so I feel like I...
very much like newly have perspec-
Yeah. Yeah. I think it is a challenging perspective because it's like, there's a lot of voices and it creates sort of like, is the creative governance process of like hearing voices and then balancing the decisions between what is maybe creatively daring versus what's appropriate for a season or what's good. like, does that impact how you think about writing or auditioning or acting?
Brynley Halverson (27:16.344)
Definitely. mean, and with Lifeline in particular, you know, because they kind of, have this niche where Lifeline's mission, it's all adaptations and it's all literary adaptations. And pretty specifically with a couple exceptions, it's usually we produced pieces that are written by the ensemble. so as I, because I have several proposals that are in various stages of becoming real and that's.
definitely something that I have to think about when I'm selecting pieces that I might like to adapt for the stage. It's like, okay, am I passionate about it first of all, but then it's like, okay, is this the sort of thing that people want to see? Is it the sort of thing that will make money? Like, is it a well-known title? Is it in the public domain? Or are we going to have to pay for the rights? Not only pay, but like get in touch with whoever's literary agent.
at whatever company and even talk to them about paying for the rights, you know. And so it's, that has been a really interesting thing, balancing those two minds of like, what am I passionate to, what's a book that I love that I want to see turned into a play versus like what's something that I think could actually happen or happen in a timely fashion. You know, it's, it's very interesting and I'm learning a lot.
Yeah. Cause it's like, there's the, there's a front end work of using your discernment to sort of muse and commit to what you're interested in adapting or developing. And then there's also communicating that. like, have you gone through different, this isn't the right term, but pitch cycles? Like, what's it like to be like, okay, this is the idea. This is what I've worked on. Like, what's that kind of like?
Well, so yeah, I feel like I have kind of gone through different versions of that because I have several. I think in the year that I've been a part of the ensemble, I've submitted four different proposals. so it's like, I've had my first one was a book that I absolutely adore and, but is written recently. And so the ensemble loved it. They love the idea. It got greenlit and now it's been kind of in stasis as we try to get in touch.
Brynley Halverson (29:28.064)
with the publisher and the rights holders. And so it's, that has been a really interesting experience where it was like, I'm really passionate to write this thing. My collective of artists is really passionate for me to write this thing. And they, it's been green lit. I'm doing air quotes. So it's like, it could happen, but I, and you know, I could start writing it now, but I feel that it would be a little irresponsible to do that.
Not only legally, but for my own heart. Do you know what mean? I don't want to write a thing and then what if it's a no on the rights and then it just can't happen. You know, that would be really, that would be a lot of wasted energy. But so, so I've had one like that where it's like immediate interest. People are excited about it, but it kind of has to sit on a shelf until we get.
the go ahead versus thinking about titles that are public domain, that it's like that already has a big leg up because we don't have to deal with all that logistically or financially. It could just happen. So, and that's kind of been the past couple months I've been like trying to find things that are in the public domain that I am as passionate about, which is hard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can be like real, real dusty and real, real problematic. Some of those.
I know, then it's like, maybe that's why it's so exciting to adapt it, to fix it.
Mishu Hilmy (30:54.114)
Yeah. But it's similar to like screenwriting where the general rule is like, do not adapt something until you have confirmation that you can, you know, option the rights because it's like this heartbreak, know, you spend months or however much time to do it. then some like, no, this company owns it. They are not going to license it. And then I was, I was curious about like, I think talking about discernment, like when it comes to acting and auditioning, what do you have? I'm curious what kind of filters you might have when it comes to.
choosing or accepting like an offer when you are offered a role or you know what are sort of the criteria that you're like nowadays these are the two or three or X number of things that need to be checked for me to like want to take it.
Yeah, think everyone, and my answer to this probably changes all the time, but I think everyone has some variation, or a lot of people have some variation of like, there are like, you know, three pieces to consider and it has to have two. Or there are five and it has to have three or something. I think for me, it's, let's see, I haven't actually articulated this in a while, so let me think what it is. I mean, roll, you know, like the actual.
Is it something that I want to do? Is it something I'm excited by? The people. Is it a director I want to work with? Is it a theater I want to work for? Yeah, am I excited by that aspect? And then there's pay, obviously. Pay and probably I would, I would maybe lump into pay, like just logistics in general.
Am I gonna have an hour commute each way? like, it, you know, is the pay a little bit less, but it's around the corner from my apartment, you know? And so I think if I had, I would distill it down to those three. And it really needs to have at least two. It's like, if this is a dream role and I'm really excited to work with this director and the pay is kind of not great.
Mishu Hilmy (32:38.009)
Mm-hmm.
Brynley Halverson (32:50.222)
I might consider it versus like if it's a director I want to work for the pay is not great and it's not something I'm passionate about I'm probably not saying yes to that. You know what I mean? So that's kind of a, but again, that's overly simplistic. It's going to be different contract to contract. But, and I mean, these days I really, the one of those that I really need more than anything is to be passionate.
about it. Like it more and more that version of that equation where the personnel is a check, the finances are a check, but the artistic passion aspect is not a check. That I am much more reticent to put myself in that situation. It's just, it's even when the pay is good, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of energy and time. And it's just not as worth it to me anymore when it's not something I'm going to be excited.
to invite people to, you know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah. I say, think it's like the integrity of, of making art or doing art. Cause it's like, if, if you water down that integrity, then it slowly becomes no different than a day job or like, then might as well go into real estate or something you don't care about. It pays way more.
Yeah, yeah. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about the scarcity mindset of it all. When I was younger, I would so much rather just be doing something to say I was doing something. And now I don't feel like I am burdened by that. And yeah, I don't like that I have a dry spell currently of acting. Do you know what mean? I would rather be working, but it no longer affects me in the same way and makes me accept
Brynley Halverson (34:37.912)
contracts that I'm not excited about or that won't pay me what I'm worth just to say I'm doing something. That's not a healthy mindset.
Yeah, I think it's similar maybe the thought I'm having is like a warped sense of identity where it's it's literal where it's like I can only claim this identity of actor writer X or Y if I'm literally doing it all the time in quotes because it's like if you It's it's just not it's not I don't think it's healthy for the brain to be like well I can't I can't claim that my acting this my actor leanness is enough because I'm not actively doing it's like well if a painter paint the painting
But they're not actively painting. You wouldn't be like, well, this person's no longer a painter. It's just the inner work, the inner work of like being gentle and patient. And I think that's sort of the act of self-definition and like faith and enoughness really comes into play of like any creative process. But I find it, it's more helpful for me to like be more broadly curious rather than like disciplined like, or painfully disciplined on like, you got to do this because you're not, you're not doing enough. Yeah.
I ate exactly that.
Brynley Halverson (35:46.862)
completely agree, I really resonate with that. And it's also like, it's a really, I'm actually curious of your perspective on this, because it's a, this is one of those things that people always say that I think is really toxic, but I also kind of feel is unfortunately kind of true. And it's a thing that people constantly say in acting school, or just as an actor, is that when you're desperate, people can...
You know what I mean? And unfortunately, I think it's kind of true. And it's like, when you, and I think that what people interpret as desperate is the scarcity mindset. They're like, my God, I have to have this, cause otherwise, you know, and I think, yeah, people can smell that. And it doesn't give off the vibe of someone you want to work with. You know what I mean? And so I'm curious of your perspective on that.
I even saying it, feel kind of gross because it's a little bit of a toxic sentiment.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cause it's, mean, it's a judgmental sentiment, right? Because it's, it's reductive. It's reducing. So I think like, what is the behavior? So desperation are, are behavioral traits that we're, we're sort of clocking as people and peers and colleagues. what are those behavioral traits likely they might lean toward that sort of anxious attachment relationship style. But what is the behavior? Is it someone who's like,
immediately wants to give you their business card or their headshot. Or when you're in a group of five people, there's one person who's just like really talking about how good of an actor they are. I think it's like desperate is like the, the catchall phrase, but ultimately it's behavior someone's doing likely driven from either anxiety or insecurity. So those are like beautiful human feelings, but as a collective group of people who want to work with artists, think art making is so time consuming and risk taking that any behavior that
Mishu Hilmy (37:42.412)
throws red flags around trust and ease. We're like, don't want to work with this person. I think they're desperate is like an easy catch-all term. But really what I think we're saying is I don't trust I will have fun or like spending time with this person because of certain behavior traits they've just displayed.
That's very, very true. And it's like, and I think that a lot of people who experience prolonged success don't actually learn how to deal with that scarcity mindset. They just aren't experiencing the scarcity. Do you know what I mean? Like I have a lot of friends who yeah, will work who I've received as working constantly. in my own moments of insecurity, I might feel envious of, like, I like.
I'm happy for them, but I wish I could also be working that often. And then they will not do a show for like one season and be a complete mess. It's like, and it's cause they never, they haven't learned how to undo that mindset that so many of us was just pounded in.
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I think the, the vulnerability of being too attached to the identity will really create that, that sort of, that, that shift or that head game. Cause it really is like, um, I am not enough unless I am doing this or I am not enough unless I am validated by an institution or a casting director or production choosing me. And those are extrinsic motivators versus like intrinsic motivators are like, all right, I might.
I've only gotten one gig this year, but that's because the eight others that I were offered, I'm like, I don't want to do a commercial for a drug. the pay would be crazy good, but you're making decisions. So I think it's whether it's maturity or self-awareness or self-reflection. They both sides of the coin have different prices. think if you're working what I used to call insecure ambition, which like my ambition was driven by like a deep insecurity to be validated.
Mishu Hilmy (39:46.678)
If you don't, if you kind of catch hiccups, it's kind of like rattle you versus the other side is you might not work a lot. And that's exhausting because it's every day's an act of faith of like, do I still like this or am I enough? Am I good enough? Yeah.
For real. I think maybe everyone who tries to be a professional artist or at least a professional actor deals with that. And again, that's one of the things that I think broadening my perspective of myself as an artist from just actor to writer, producer, theater maker in general really expanded my own perspective of myself of like what
being an artist means. And yeah, it helps me not be so hungry for that external validation.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. think it's similar to maybe the discussion we had around just gender identity in terms of a literalism of like, if you become too literal with it versus choosing the creative act, the uncomfortable act of like expanding it, which takes, think, energy and effort and thoughtfulness. do think long-term it's probably more freeing or more maybe self-determined.
Yeah, I completely agree. completely agree.
Mishu Hilmy (41:02.37)
Yeah. Cause like even someone like with this podcast, like I, I, I don't, I don't tell anyone I'm a podcaster. don't like when people ask me what I've been up to, I'm like, yeah, this interview series, but it's a similar thing that I spent so much, so much time writing or performing or directing that I'm more closely aligned with those nouns. But interviewing and talking with people is also part of the creative process and as fulfilling as, doing it to a degree. I just like talking with people, but to allow that be part of the creative umbrella rather than.
What is this? Why aren't you writing? Why aren't you producing a film? Aren't you a filmmaker, not a podcaster? So the hangups still sort of rear their heads.
They all creep in. I'm not trying to say I'm so evolved. It's very much something I am continuing to work through today.
Yeah. I noticed like my resentments much less. I celebrate a lot of my peers successes. And then there's always a second of like, I wonder how they got, got there. And then it's, it'll be the judgment of like, well, clearly you're, you're not doing it, buddy.
Yeah, it's hard. Because yeah, the self-comparison game is so deadly. yeah, celebrating the wins of your peers is like, that's one of the pieces of advice I give to any young artist, is like, you have to be jazzed about your peers' success, because otherwise you'll go insane. You'll have a bad time.
Mishu Hilmy (42:32.034)
Yeah. Yeah. I remember like maybe five or six, probably six or six years ago, six or seven years ago, it'd be like, what is this bubbling toxic, poisonous resentment going on? What if, what if I use that eight minutes of energy to just write an email and say like, wow, I saw your piece. I saw your project. I saw your performance. So inspired by it. You know, you don't really know me, blah, blah, blah. And I've, I've had a lot of like friendships and relationships start because instead of like festering in as a lurking compare.
person, I decided to reach out and celebrate them. So I think that's also a great tool to just like...
Yeah, I love the way you describe that you're and this is not the first time in this conversation you've talked about what some people would perceive as a negative emotion. I like the way you talk about them very non-judgmental and how you didn't just like squash that emotion you you know you molded it into something more productive and so yeah I love I just love the way you said that.
Thank you. Yeah. mean, I'm a big practicer of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication. I read that like, 2009 and that changed my life. So it's like, all feelings are like beautiful energies to prompt you to try and meet your need. So it's like, there's no reason to judge them. It's like a check engine light. It's like, Hey, something's going on. If I'm feeling angry, there's nothing bad. It's just like, what's, what's dangerous is when I punch something like that's not the best use of it, but it's like checking.
Yeah, I find it so useful specifically like in my journey with my own anxiety and depression of like, okay, yes, these are things that I want to address and work with and like, I might take medication or I might do a myriad of things to deal with those, but at the end of the day, they are emotions that are trying to protect me in some way. And so it's like, how do I better understand what is this thing trying to protect me so that I can say, okay.
Brynley Halverson (44:23.564)
You did a good job and now you can sit down. Over here.
Yeah. Especially with acting because it's like, think the job is, or I think sometimes the job of the actor is to sort of see the role, interpret the role ideally with this little judgment as possible and the emotionality or the emotions within the role. it's like to practice ideally in your day-to-day life of like maybe acknowledging or seeing the emotions, but without judgment would probably apply to like when you take a role of like, this character is acting in such a way that might inspire these emotions within them or their scene partner.
but I can't judge it because this is the role I'm playing or so I think at least.
Yeah, I definitely, I go back and forth a little bit because I agree with what you're saying in that like, I often joke to people that I went to school to study empathy. Which I think is true. a lot of what you're saying is like, acting is such an exercise in just human emotion and empathy. But yeah, I mean, I think there is some, I think you have to come in with some level of judgment. You know I mean?
Because at the end of the day, it's like, could, you know, just because I'm an actor playing a serial killer doesn't mean that I don't think that being a serial killer, you know, like sometimes I think people to take that to the other degree of like, I'm being so agnostic about the morals of my character that I'm actually kind of missing some of the what's there. But not that I think that's what you were saying, but I think some people take that.
Mishu Hilmy (45:39.906)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Brynley Halverson (45:57.344)
and take it to the other extreme.
Totally, yeah, there's a risk of passivity because I think what makes, that's why I like really love your performances when I've seen them and you've been in, you know, a short film of mine, A Political is like to put a point of view on it, right? So it's like, how can you have a point of view of the character, of the role, of the moment that's distinctly your own? And part of that comes through having, you know, analysis, analyzing and, you know, take some of it's probably also impulsive and instinctual, but I think maybe within the moment it's like.
what my scene partner is giving me or what I'm sort of evoking, trying not to judge it. Cause like, I don't think, I think it's a bad note to be like, uh, do a sadder, like, uh, don't think actors play motion.
Yeah, it's and apolitical is a good example too because like, you know that character I definitely identified with certain aspects of and and and agreed with or disagreed with certain things that they were saying but it's like
Even the times I've watched it, there are times where I'm like, my character's totally in the right, they're the hero of the story. And then there are other times where I think my character's a complete asshole. And so, that Ben's character is like, you know, more in the right at times. so it's, it's all so subjective. like, you just can't think, like we talked about with a million different other topics, you just can't be so absolute.
Mishu Hilmy (47:18.132)
Yeah. And then I'm curious, like, are there, are there sort of creative practices that are maybe not as direct as say writing or acting that like you implement throughout your day that either kind of keep you buoyant or sort of curious.
I would say one of the things that actually I thought of another one. So there's two that come to mind immediately. First, I would say is tarot. I am a reader of tarot. I've done it mostly I do it for myself, but I also do it for friends and I've done it professionally in a couple different contexts. But that is a major tool for me.
for everything, mean, for my mental health, for my spirituality, for my understanding of the world, and also I thought of it for this, because it's my creativity. And I think any storyteller can identify really easily with tarot, because that's all it is. It's looking at images and characters and narratives and deriving meaning from them. And so that's definitely one that comes to mind. And then the other is Dungeons and Dragons. I am a huge Dungeons and Dragons.
nerd and it was a hobby that I started during the pandemic. think like a lot of people did. It's risen in popularity a lot the past few years and I love it for so many reasons, but one of them being, and the reason I thought of it to answer this question is that it is a way to feed and satisfy my passion for storytelling in a way that is wholly separate from my career and my craft.
know what I mean? And even elements of performance, know, that is, it's a really lovely way to access that in a way that is separate from the capitalism grind of the career, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, I do that as often as possible.
Mishu Hilmy (49:13.774)
Yeah. I mean, it's, beautiful to sort of like access that play and create those environments. So just sort of, uh, um, unproductive play, right. Or it's like, there's no intent to monetize it or quantify it. It's like you and a community of people that you see regularly or semi-regularly where you're, you're committing to the human journey of play and also storytelling and discovery. Cause it's, you know, there's certain improvisational elements to discover in, uh, campaigns. Yeah.
Totally. And it's a funny thing too with both of those things, with Tarot and with D &D, it's like the capitalist mindset creeps in from time to time. I'm like, I mean, can't tell you the amount of people who've been like, and I mean, I have done Tarot and been paid for it, you know, on an individual basis and in like, I've done it for events before, but like, I could really put my full chest into monetizing that. And I'm like,
Wow, I can't think of a better way to like ruin my spiritual practice. And similarly with D &D, because there's been such a rise in actual play TTRPG content, there are people who are making careers out of that as a vehicle of performance. so with one of my main groups that I play with really often, actually most of the groups I play with are all
performers of some kind. So obviously from time to time we're like, should we start a podcast? Should we be monetizing this in some way? And it's like, we probably could, would it ruin it? Do you know what I mean? I think about the story that we've been telling at one of my tables for years now, and it's like, it would still have been something good or perhaps great.
if we had been recording that for public consumption, but it would have been fundamentally a different thing. know what I mean? Than something that we did exactly as you said, for an unproductive sense of play. And yeah, so it's a thing I think about sometimes, you know, and then on one hand I'm like, well, if I'm already making money as a performer, like why wouldn't I want to do that and play D &D at the same time? But it's like,
Brynley Halverson (51:32.842)
My boundary for myself there, think, is that if I ever were to start doing that, I would need to keep the home game as just the home game. You know what mean?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it all, you know, it becomes a business decision, a logistical decision. then, you know, the, sort of spontaneity, the love of the game changes when you're like, well, this person didn't send that email or they didn't like do this.
Suddenly, your business partners, yeah.
Yeah. Like given how uncertain the creative industries are, the entertainment industry is and the world is like, how do you, you know, stay motivated or stay gentle or take care of yourself in such an uncertain world?
That is a great question. And I think one I'm still striving to answer for myself, but I think that I have to maintain my faith that these art forms and that creativity will always be there. mean, know, throughout time immemorial, the arts have been the way that people and communities and cultures have survived. you know, our times are...
Brynley Halverson (52:45.858)
bleak and dire, but you know, I don't think that it's different in that regard. And so yeah, I think that's, I just have to keep my faith that like these fields will always exist because they have to, like they will out of necessity. And then also, you know, just that it's, I do fundamentally believe that being an artist is like one of the most noble pursuits that a human can have. You know, I mean, it's like a devotion to better understanding the human condition. And so it just will.
Brynley Halverson (53:18.457)
always prove worth it. cause like what's the alternative? Do you know I mean? Like, I know that's a little bit bleak. It's like, Oh, what gets you through? It's like, there's what else would I do? You know what I mean? But, but I think it, I think there's truth to it. I think that it's, it's the thing that gets me through, you know, that was maybe a little convoluted, but that's how I feel.
All right. That's totally great. I definitely agree. Brynley, it's been such a lovely conversation. It's been great.
been great to catch up.
Mishu Hilmy (54:00.078)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, take care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, prompt time. Yeah, let's just do one word.
you where you don't need permission. So tonight spend 10 minutes making something you don't need anyone to choose you for, whether it be a paragraph, a sketch, a scene idea, a doodle, a noodle, a song, whatever. Give yourself 10 minutes to just do the muscle memory, the practice of making something without thinking about, dreaming about, yearning for a gatekeeper to allow you to do it. Do it. 10 minutes, something small, something big just for you.
Alright, thanks for listening this far and have a great rest of your day.