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In this podcast hosted by the trailblazing founder of RE/MAX, Dave Liniger, we discover the secrets of those who have overcome challenges, pushed past their own limits, and experienced the best life has to offer.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:20
Speaker 1
Welcome to another episode of Ambition and Grit where we explore the journeys of exceptional individuals who've turned their dreams into reality through perseverance and determination. I'm your host, Dave Lineker.
00:00:12:20 - 00:00:19:22
Speaker 1
we have a special guest who's a leading expert in habit formation and distraction. Near your
00:00:19:22 - 00:00:27:12
Speaker 1
He's here to share invaluable insights on mastering internal triggers to achieve ambitious goals. Let's get started.
00:00:27:12 - 00:00:43:17
Speaker 1
your work often involves habit formation. How does the development of positive habits contribute to the cultivation of grit? And what role do habits play in achieving ambitious goals?
00:00:43:19 - 00:01:07:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this is this is a big question. It's hard to give a succinct answer, but I'll try my best. So I actually would say that there has been an overemphasis on habits. I think we've reached peak habits. Why do I say that? And this is kind of, a little bit, contrarian here. So my contrarian perspective is that the average person doesn't understand what a habit really is.
00:01:07:16 - 00:01:30:04
Speaker 2
I certainly didn't understand it before I got into this field. Now, 15 years ago. Habit was kind of shorthand for me, for a behavior I wanted to have done, something I wanted to have done, but I didn't really like doing right. I don't like exercise. I wish I had an exercise habit, I don't like writing. I wish I had a writing habit.
00:01:30:06 - 00:01:53:04
Speaker 2
I don't like meditating, I wish I had a meditation habit. The problem is, none of those things that I just mentioned can actually become habits. None of them. You can't have an exercise habit. You can't have a meditation habit. You can't have a writing habit. Why? What is the definition of a habit? The definition of a habit is an impulse to do a behavior with little or no conscious thought.
00:01:53:06 - 00:02:14:02
Speaker 2
How exactly does one exercise with little or no conscious thought? Maybe there are some exceptions, right? If you go on a walk and you can take a call or listen to music and be fully functional while you're walking. Sure. That's probably a type of exercise that you could turn into a habit, but if you're trying to break your personal record, if you're trying to lift more weight, if you're trying to run faster, that requires a lot of conscious thought.
00:02:14:04 - 00:02:36:05
Speaker 2
learning a new musical instrument that is not a habit. Now, playing could be a habit. Once you've memorized a piece of music, you can play habitually. But to learn the new behavior, you can't do that habit. You can't do that habitual. You have to be fully present. You can't meditate as a habit, because if you're meditating as a habit, you're doing it with little or no conscious thought.
00:02:36:05 - 00:02:59:11
Speaker 2
You're missing the point. The whole point of meditation is conscious awareness of your thought. I don't know how to write, and I've written two bestsellers thousands of articles. I don't know how to write without thinking. So none of those things can be habits. What they are is a routine. A routine is a series of behaviors, frequently repeated, that you can have, an exercise routine, a writing routine, a meditation routine.
00:02:59:13 - 00:03:24:01
Speaker 2
Absolutely. But when you think about it, habits are the antithesis of what we call deliberate practice. You know, the famous 10,000 hour rule that was about violinists who were very deliberate, about conscious awareness around the learning of of their instrument that required the opposite of a habit. It required a lot of thought, it required a lot of grit, right, and perseverance and thoughtfulness.
00:03:24:03 - 00:03:45:05
Speaker 2
And so I think we need to differentiate between things that can be habits, behaviors that we can turn into, things done with little or no conscious thought, and behaviors that will never become habits. And so for some behaviors, they they all behaviors can start as routines. But whether they become a habit or not depends on, what is the nature of the very behavior.
00:03:45:11 - 00:04:08:02
Speaker 2
So for behaviors that require a lot of perseverance and grit, we actually don't want to try and turn those into habits because you say, oh, whatever, potato, potato, what's the big deal? It's just the vernacular use of the term. But I think it really, really matters, because what happens when people try building a habit and they, you know, listen to some guru or, talk about habits like me and they say, okay, well, I'm going to start, building a habit.
00:04:08:04 - 00:04:25:15
Speaker 2
And then they have some magic number in their head, right? 44 days, 60 days, whatever number of days. And the habit doesn't take hold. The behavior suddenly isn't easy. You still don't like exercising in the gym. You still don't like trying to write your novel. You still don't like meditation. It's still really hard. Then what do people do?
00:04:25:17 - 00:04:50:03
Speaker 2
They don't blame the methodology that's broken. They think that they're broken, right? And so they take it on the chin. They think, oh, there must be something wrong with me. And that's not right. There's nothing wrong with them. It's the methodology that's messed up. So I think it's really, really important that we differentiate the type of behaviors that require, the grit and perseverance and routines to get things done versus the kind of behaviors that can even have the potential to become habits in the first place.
00:04:50:19 - 00:05:20:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between the thousands of people that want to go for the gold and give up because they can't handle the grind of 3 to 6 hours a day, week after week after week, and it becomes overwhelming. And it takes a unique personality that can handle the grind.
00:05:20:11 - 00:05:24:09
Speaker 2
Right. And so what's the difference in those type of people? What do they know that the rest of us don't?
00:05:24:11 - 00:05:25:19
Speaker 1
Yes.
00:05:25:20 - 00:05:44:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I think the difference is that they know how to deal with discomfort. I think that's that's probably the biggest trait. It's not per se motivation. A lot of people think, oh, if I had more motivation, then I would do the thing right, that they that the people who achieve their goals, they just want it more.
00:05:44:13 - 00:06:12:04
Speaker 2
And that's not always the case. I actually think it's it's almost never the case that you can only have so much more motivation. I think what we focus on too much is the motivation, but we need to focus on is the barriers in your way. And so what I think people who, achieve great things through deliberate practice by showing up and doing the work and routinized versus trying to say, well, if I had some magic technique that would take away the discomfort along habits, right?
00:06:12:04 - 00:06:42:00
Speaker 2
Like, oh, if I just put it on autopilot, I wouldn't have to do the hard thing. That's a discomfort escape mechanism, and it works for some behaviors, but for other behaviors, most things worth having in life are on the other side of pain. And so dealing with that discomfort, the person who does achieve Olympic gold, the person who has the perseverance and grit to start a business and succeed, the person who finishes, their bestselling book, the person who, who raises a happy family.
00:06:42:02 - 00:07:07:17
Speaker 2
These type of behaviors require deliberate practice. They require action over a very, very long time. And so one of my life mantras is consistency over intensity. Consistency over intensity. It all things right. Everything worth having. It's not about, oh, you know, after New Year's Eve I'm going to diet for all of three weeks, which is how much time it takes for most people to, to, give up on their New Year's resolution.
00:07:07:19 - 00:07:23:12
Speaker 2
that's not the way you get in shape. The way you get in shape is you eat right. You exercise every single day for years and years. The way you start a business is by putting in the effort every single day. You don't start a business in a weekend. The way you have a great relationship with somebody is that you care for them every single day.
00:07:23:16 - 00:07:45:17
Speaker 2
Not, oh, I'm going to take you to Hawaii for, honeymoon. That's just the beginning, right? You have to put in that effort day after day. Consistency over intensity. So what separates high performers from low performers is their ability to deal with discomfort is their ability to lean into or reassess, reimagine the discomfort as actually a benefit. Right.
00:07:45:17 - 00:08:08:16
Speaker 2
And so this is this is a very Buddhist mentality around how, you know, pain is part of the human conditioning, but suffering is optional. That suffering is about our assessment, our our, rationalization of that pain. So how you are able to deal with discomfort is, is very, very important. This is actually the subject of my second book in Distractible, which is all about distraction.
00:08:08:21 - 00:08:26:06
Speaker 2
Right. Why is it that we say we're going to do one thing and we do something else? Right? I think that is that is actually the defining trait of your ability, like you said, to show up for practice day after day in order to become a, Olympic, athlete. That's what it takes. As opposed to, you know what?
00:08:26:06 - 00:08:42:11
Speaker 2
I can skip my workout today. Or, you know what? Traffic was bad, so I'm not going to do my exercise or whatever the case might be, avoiding those distractions. It's not that we don't know what to do, right? We all basically know what to do. If you want to get in shape, eat right and exercise. Do we need some kind of diet book to tell us that?
00:08:42:11 - 00:08:59:01
Speaker 2
No. We basically know if you want to have great relationships, you have to be fully present with people. If you, want to start a business, you have to show up day after day and do the hard work that other people don't want to do. So we all basically know this. We know what to do. The problem is we don't know how to get out of our own way.
00:08:59:01 - 00:09:01:14
Speaker 2
We don't know how to stop getting distracted.
00:09:01:16 - 00:09:20:21
Speaker 1
If that makes sense. In a world filled with distractions, how can individuals maintain focus and grit, especially when pursuing long term ambitions? And what do you recommend leveraging technology in a positive way?
00:09:20:23 - 00:09:40:02
Speaker 2
Absolutely, yes. So this is really the focus of my book in Distractible. And I think it starts again with with the words we use. So for me, it was very important to understand what is distraction. I kind of use this term a lot, but I didn't really dive into the origins. So that let's start there. So if you asked most people what is the opposite of distraction, they will tell you focus, right?
00:09:40:02 - 00:10:02:16
Speaker 2
I don't want to be distracted. I want to be focused. But that's not exactly right. That if you look at the origin of the word, the opposite of distraction is not focus. The opposite of distraction is traction. Of course it is, right? Traction and distraction. They're opposites. They both come from the same Latin word. The source of both those words is a Latin word trocar, which means to pull.
00:10:02:18 - 00:10:22:03
Speaker 2
And you'll notice that both traction and distraction and in the same six letters act that spells action, reminding us that distraction is not something that happens to us. People think, oh, it was my phone, it was my kids, it was my boss. It was all this stuff outside of me that distracted me. But it actually turns out distractions are actions that we ourselves take, right?
00:10:22:03 - 00:10:41:02
Speaker 2
They are within us rather than things that in our outside environment per se. So now that we have traction and we have distraction, let's let's define that. So traction is any action that pulls you towards what you say you're going to do things you do with intent, things that move you closer to your values and help you become the kind of person you want to become.
00:10:41:02 - 00:11:05:19
Speaker 2
Those are acts of traction, the opposite. Anything that is not that is a diss traction, something that pulls you away from your values, further away from your goals. So this is really, really important. This isn't just semantics, because I would argue the difference between traction and distraction is one word, and that one word is intent. Intent. As Dorothy Parker said, the time you plan to waste is not wasted time.
00:11:05:21 - 00:11:31:14
Speaker 2
So what most people do is they vilify the distractions, right? They say, oh, it's my phone. It's, Facebook. It's the news, it's Twitter. It's all these technologies that are distracting us. Well, we know that Plato, the Greek philosopher, was complaining about this very same problem 2500 years before the internet. Right? So if people have been complaining about distraction for 2500 years, it can't be caught by our modern technologies.
00:11:31:17 - 00:11:53:15
Speaker 2
It is part of the human condition. And so instead of vilifying and moralizing and medical izing these behaviors, if you want to go on your phone and watch YouTube or Netflix or play a video game, there's nothing wrong with any of that. Okay, tell me why watching, Netflix or playing a video game is somehow morally inferior to watching golf on TV.
00:11:53:17 - 00:12:15:03
Speaker 2
There's no difference. Anything you want to do with your time and attention is fine, but do it according to your schedule and your values, not someone else's. Certainly not in media companies. Okay, so that's traction. Anything you said you're going to do in advance, those are acts of traction, the opposite of traction distraction is all these things that are not what you said you were going to do.
00:12:15:03 - 00:12:34:08
Speaker 2
So for example, let me give you a scenario. This used to happen to me every day before I started this line of research, which is why I started, learning about distraction to help myself more than anyone else. And, this was my routine. I would get to work and I would say, okay, you know, yesterday I delayed, yesterday I procrastinated no more of that.
00:12:34:08 - 00:12:45:12
Speaker 2
I'm going to get started. I'm going to do what I said here. I've got my thing to do on my to do list, by the way, we can talk about my to do lists. Are one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity. We can get back to that in a minute. That's okay. Here's my to do list.
00:12:45:12 - 00:13:02:17
Speaker 2
There's that big project I said I was going to do. I've been delaying. I'm going to do it right now. Here I go. Nothing's going to get in my way. I'm going to start. But first let me check my email. Right. Let me just check the news real quick or let me just see what's going on in the office gossip column lately.
00:13:02:18 - 00:13:19:13
Speaker 2
Let me just see what's happening around these days. I gotta do that stuff. That's work related tasks. Let me just check my email because, you know, I got to do that at some point today. And what I didn't realize is that that is the most dangerous form of distraction, because you don't even realize you're distracted if you're on, Instagram or something in the middle of a workday.
00:13:19:13 - 00:13:38:01
Speaker 2
Okay? You know, you're not supposed to be doing that. But if you're checking email, oh, that's okay. That's a work related task. No. If it's not what you said you were going to do in advance, it's just as much of a distraction, maybe worse. So because you don't even realize now you've been taken off track. So just because it's a work related task doesn't mean it's not a distraction.
00:13:38:01 - 00:13:58:15
Speaker 2
That's the most pernicious form of distraction, because you're not even aware it's happening. So now we have traction. We have distraction. Okay. That's two parts of the model. Now we have to ask ourselves what prompts us to distraction? Why do we start getting distracted in the first place? Well, there are two types of triggers to distraction. The first kind of trigger is called an external trigger.
00:13:58:15 - 00:14:24:18
Speaker 2
An external trigger. These are the usual suspects the pings, the dings, the rings, anything in our outside environment that can lead us towards traction or distraction. That only accounts for 10% of our distractions, 10% of the time that you check your phone. Is it because of a ping ding a ring 10%. Well, what's the other 90%? Turns out that 90% of the time that we check our phones, it's not because of what's happening outside of us.
00:14:24:18 - 00:14:45:02
Speaker 2
It's not the pending or ring. It's because of what's happening inside of us. These are called internal triggers. And so this was a big moment for me in my research, and why I felt it was so necessary to write in Distractible. And what most people do not realize is that the vast majority of distraction begins from within.
00:14:45:04 - 00:15:14:09
Speaker 2
We love to blame all this stuff outside of us, but distraction, at the end of the day, for 90% of the time is an emotion regulation problem. It's boredom, loneliness, fatigue, uncertainty, anxiety, stress. It is these uncomfortable sensations that we simply don't have. The toolkit to deal with. And so this is the most important first step. And so we can kind of work our way around these four points of the compass where I talk about these these steps of distraction.
00:15:14:11 - 00:15:34:23
Speaker 2
Number one, we master the internal triggers. If you don't master your internal triggers, they will become your master. That is the most important step you have to deal with discomfort. If you can't stop checking your email throughout the day, that's not email's fault. If you can't sit at the dinner table with your family without looking at social media or looking at ESPN or whatever, that is not the technology's fault.
00:15:35:01 - 00:15:53:06
Speaker 2
if you find yourself or you're distracted by all kinds of things, typically nine times out of ten, it starts with an emotion regulation problem. So the first step is to learn techniques to deal with the emotional discomfort in a healthy manner. It doesn't mean you don't need to go see a psychiatrist. Know that there's nothing wrong with that, but you can do this on your own.
00:15:53:06 - 00:16:18:23
Speaker 2
I give you 12 different techniques that you can start using immediately. The second step is to make time for traction. Okay. We talked about traction as the opposite of distraction. Is anything that you said you were going to do in advance. So one of the most fundamental, foundational, important things you can do is to start planning out what you are going to do with your time, because you can't say you got distracted unless you know what you got distracted from.
00:16:19:01 - 00:16:40:15
Speaker 2
There's no such thing as distraction without traction. So if you can't look at your calendar and say, I was going to do XYZ, even if XYZ is play video games, that's fine. If that's what you want to do with your time and attention, great. Do it, but have it planned in advance. Okay, so having that knowing what you are going to do in advance, that is the only way that you can possibly become indestructible.
00:16:40:15 - 00:17:00:07
Speaker 2
And so unless you're retired or a child, you have to plan your day. That's making time for traction. By turning your values into time. We can talk about exactly how to do that. The third step, then, is to hack back the external triggers, even though they only account for 10% of our distractions. All those pings, dings, and rings, all kinds of easy steps we can take to to make sure we can hack back those external triggers.
00:17:00:11 - 00:17:18:20
Speaker 2
But that's the easy stuff. That's kindergarten. What about our kids? Our pets, our boss? Right. All these things are the kind of distractions that we like, things that can take us off track. We love our kids. Of course. We love our pets. These things can also become distractions. What about meetings that we didn't need to attend? What about emails that we didn't need to send?
00:17:19:01 - 00:17:37:19
Speaker 2
So all of these external triggers, these pings, things and rings in our outside environment, some simple things that anyone can do to put those to hack back those external triggers that step three. And then finally step four is preventing distraction with packed. A packed is a precursor amendment and it's the firewall against distractions the last line of defense.
00:17:37:21 - 00:17:49:12
Speaker 2
So when you use these four strategies in concert master internal triggers. Make time for traction. Hack back external triggers and prevent distraction with pets. This is how anyone can become indestructible.
00:17:49:14 - 00:18:07:21
Speaker 1
That's amazing. Your book Hut discusses the power of creating habits through repeated small wins. How can individuals apply this concept to build grit incrementally and sustain motivation over a period of time?
00:18:07:23 - 00:18:34:15
Speaker 2
Well, hooked was was targeted at product makers. So people who are building products and services, that utilize habits. So I work with all kinds of companies, since before the publication of the book and, my time at Stanford when I taught there a class based on this book. and so it's for companies that are building language learning apps, to get people hooked to learning a language or fitness products that get people hooked to exercise.
00:18:34:17 - 00:18:52:07
Speaker 2
and of course, I stole the secrets of the social media companies and the video gaming companies so that we could democratize these techniques. So the idea is, what if we could all use these tactics for good, right? What if we could use the same psychology that video games and social media products use to get people hooked for healthy habits?
00:18:52:07 - 00:19:20:15
Speaker 2
And that's exactly what the book has done over the past, what, decades since it was published. and so it's it's not really meant for personal behavior change. I think there's a lot of other books that help individuals change through habits. My goal was to facilitate behavior change through the products we use. So, for example, helping people, remember to take their medication, and building a habit around, medication adherence, that's a huge problem because people have the best of intentions, right?
00:19:20:15 - 00:19:47:21
Speaker 2
They want to take their medication, but they just forget because they're not in a habit of doing it. So how do you how do you do that? How do you create a product that that is used habitually? Very, very. And in this case it's a life saving, medication, you know, financial habits, health habits, relationship habits, work habits, all kinds of ways that we can use technology to facilitate, these, these behavior, this, these types of behavior change.
00:19:47:23 - 00:20:03:05
Speaker 1
So external triggers can influence behavior. How can individuals harness external triggers to support their ambitious pursuits? And how do these triggers impact the development of.
00:20:03:07 - 00:20:23:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So external triggers I talk about both in hooked and in Distractible. So when it comes to building good habits as well as how do we break bad habits. So when it comes to building good habits, we need to use those external triggers to our advantage, right? So having some kind of physical manifestation that reminds us to take an action is very, very important.
00:20:23:22 - 00:20:43:11
Speaker 2
So the classic example is having your running shoes. You know, if you're trying to create, a routine of going out and exercising, well, having your gym shoes ready to go so that you can, literally hit the ground running, because you're reminded by those external triggers when it comes to a product, we can also do the same, right?
00:20:43:11 - 00:20:57:23
Speaker 2
So many times physical products, the reason that we use our coffee maker with little or no conscious thought, we know all the steps, right? Maybe the first time we make coffee we have to learn it. But then once we've learned how to make coffee, we just do it with little or no conscious thought or our toaster oven or whatever the case might be.
00:20:58:05 - 00:21:22:23
Speaker 2
When we have a physical manifestation of a product that becomes the external trigger, it makes it easier, to prompt someone to action because there's a physical manifestation as opposed to, you know, many times when I work with companies and they're building apps on your phone, well, that home screen is so crowded for people that unless, unless they remember to use your product with little or no conscious thought, you're just going to drown in the sea of apps.
00:21:23:01 - 00:21:42:13
Speaker 2
And you say, okay, well, I can send the notifications and pings and dings, but everybody gets so many of these notifications these days that it becomes very hard, for anyone to stand out. So it's even more imperative, even more important if if someone is building the kind of product to change a consumer's behavior, that they don't rely on the external triggers.
00:21:42:17 - 00:22:07:15
Speaker 2
If you always rely on a ping, ding, or ring to get a consumer's attention, well, that's kind of annoying, right? You've always kind of sick of all these notifications. And so the ultimate goal of a habit forming product is to no longer need that external trigger, right? And personally, as well as with a product. That's when you know a habit is formed, is that the external trigger becomes the training wheels, but you don't want to rely on the external trigger.
00:22:07:15 - 00:22:33:14
Speaker 2
Eventually you want to rely on the internal trigger. So every time I feel uncertain about something I check up, I check a dashboard. If I'm if if I have a curiosity, right, I'm checking Google. If I'm lonely, maybe I'm reconnecting with friends on on a social media company, a network, for example. So we always want to connect the products use to a frequently occurring internal trigger.
00:22:33:14 - 00:22:54:20
Speaker 2
And the same goes for all our habits. In fact, every action we take this is very important. You know, most people don't realize, that, this, this, this dichotomy that we have between carrots and sticks is actually a bad metaphor. It doesn't it doesn't actually explain human behavior. you know, that that everything we do is about the pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain.
00:22:54:20 - 00:23:23:13
Speaker 2
Carrots and sticks, neurologically speaking, that is not true. That is not true. That, neurologically speaking, the carrot is the stick. The carrot is the stick. Meaning there's only one reason, and one reason only that we do anything and everything and that is the desire to escape discomfort, even the pursuit of pleasurable sensations. Right? Craving, hunger, lusting, desire, all of these things.
00:23:23:13 - 00:23:50:14
Speaker 2
You know, there's a reason we say love hurts neurologically. That is absolutely true, that the everything we do is about the alleviation of discomfort, the way the brain gets us to act is not based on what feels good. It's about the memory of what felt good. And through that memory, it spurs us to action with discomfort. So craving, wanting desire, lusting, hunger, all of these things to pursue a pleasurable end though that's the end goal.
00:23:50:16 - 00:24:15:00
Speaker 2
But the motivation comes from the desire to escape discomfort, which to me, you know, that sounds kind of like a bummer. Wait, everything is about pain relief? Absolutely. It is. To me, that's very empowering, because what that therefore means is that time management is pain management. Money management is pain management, weight management is nothing more than pain management.
00:24:15:02 - 00:24:30:06
Speaker 2
So once we learn to manage our discomfort, to use it as as rocket fuel towards traction, rather than trying to escape it with distraction, well, now we can truly master our choices, our attention, and our future.
00:24:30:08 - 00:24:46:14
Speaker 1
So effectively, managing time is critical for ambitious individuals. What time management techniques do you recommend for maximizing productivity while maintaining a focus on long term goals?
00:24:46:16 - 00:25:08:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, so I think it really starts before you, before we think about, the latest tips and tricks and hacks. the I think the most important place to start is with your values. So what are values? Values I define as attributes of the person you want to become, right? That to me, the goal in life is to be the kind of person I admire.
00:25:08:21 - 00:25:29:00
Speaker 2
Right? To live a life that is has at least as little regret as possible. And so the only way to do that is by defining what your values are, and then trying to live a life in accordance to the pursuit of those values, trying to become that person who embodies these values. But most people have no idea what their values are.
00:25:29:01 - 00:25:51:15
Speaker 2
And, it's done completely passively in terms of how they follow through on those values. So there's two places and only two places where you can identify what someone's values really are. You look at how they spend their money, and you look at how they spend their time. That's it, not what they say. People can espouse all kinds of things, but when it comes to what people's values really are, you look at how they spend their time and how they spend their money.
00:25:51:16 - 00:26:09:23
Speaker 2
Right? And so it's it's ironic, in fact, that people are so cheap with their money. Think about all the ways that we save money. We, clip coupons, we split checks at lunch. we only buy things on sale, right? We were so cheap when it comes to money. But when it comes to our time, we just give it away.
00:26:10:03 - 00:26:28:18
Speaker 2
Whoever wants it, take it right. Oh. Oh, there's this silly thing happening in the news that doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form. Oh, yeah. I'm going to give that an hour or oh, there's this series on TV that everyone's talking about. Well, I gotta watch that. Right? Sure. I give that my time. And so it's ironic because, time is a nonrenewable resource.
00:26:28:20 - 00:26:48:23
Speaker 2
Money. However, we can always make more, right? You can always make another buck. That's not hard. We know how to do that. You cannot make more time. So whether you're Elon Musk or Bill gates, it doesn't matter. You have the same 24 hours in a day. So I think we should flip the script a bit. I think we should be very cheap with our time and generous with our money, because you cannot make more time.
00:26:49:00 - 00:27:07:18
Speaker 2
And so how do we make sure that we're cheap with our time? We have to turn our values into time. We have to turn our values into time. How do we do that? We start by asking ourselves, how would I spend my time? Just like, how would I spend my money? How would I spend my time in accordance with the person I want to become?
00:27:07:20 - 00:27:32:06
Speaker 2
And so the very best time management technique you can use, and this has been validated by thousands of peer reviewed studies. It's way, way better than this stupid to do list technique that people have been taught. It's called setting an implementation intention, which is just a fancy way. People say in the psychology community of planning out what you're going to do and when you're going to do it, meaning you've got to keep a time boxed calendar.
00:27:32:12 - 00:27:49:20
Speaker 2
Okay, now to do lists aren't all bad. If you want to get things out of your brain and onto a piece of paper, fantastic. That's a great idea. Don't keep all those tissues in your head. Put them down somewhere. But that's step one. What people forget and what they they they really hurts them is that they run their life based on a To-Do list.
00:27:49:22 - 00:28:11:19
Speaker 2
Right? They've got this long list of outputs, all the things they want to do, but nowhere to figure out where are the inputs. And this is the big fallacy around time management and why to do lists are dumb because you can't have output without input, right? So if I go to, let's say it's my kids birthday party and I go to the baker and I say, hey, I'd like to order two dozen cupcakes.
00:28:11:22 - 00:28:29:02
Speaker 2
Okay, well, the baker is going to think and they're going to say, okay, I need sugar, I need flour, I need butter, I need all these inputs to make the output of the cupcakes. What's our output as knowledge workers. Right. What's our output? Sorry. What's our input? Our input is only two things. Our input is just our time and our attention.
00:28:29:04 - 00:28:47:17
Speaker 2
But where do we get those inputs? Where do we budget those inputs? It's not butter and flour and sugar. Our inputs are time and attention. So the only way you can get the output that you're looking for is to plan for your time and attention. You can't have the outputs without the inputs, so you have to have a time box calendar.
00:28:47:19 - 00:29:06:21
Speaker 2
And so that's exactly the technique I teach in step two of becoming and Distractible is sitting down to figure out what are my values. Okay. My values come in three life domains you, your relationships and finally your work. And so I help people step by step. Walkthrough. Okay, how do I figure out what my values are. And it's not some big, you know, five year plan.
00:29:06:21 - 00:29:32:04
Speaker 2
It's just about tomorrow. How would the person I want to become spend their time tomorrow taking care of myself first and foremost. If I can't take care of myself, I can't take care of other people, my relationships, and finally my work. And then putting that, translating those values, turning them into time. And once you have a time box calendar and, let me tell you, it is a life changing practice because now you can actually enjoy leisure time.
00:29:32:09 - 00:29:48:02
Speaker 2
Part of the what I call the tyranny of the To-Do list is that even when you want to relax, even when you just want to hang out with your family or watch some Netflix or just, you know, just do something for yourself, you feel guilty, right? Because there's all these things on the to do list you haven't done.
00:29:48:04 - 00:30:05:17
Speaker 2
Whereas a person who is in Distractible when they're playing with their kids, when they're watching a movie, when they're playing a video game, they can do so with relief, right? They can actually enjoy that leisure time, because now they have turned what would otherwise be the distraction into traction by making time for it in their schedule.
00:30:05:19 - 00:30:22:07
Speaker 1
So in a technology driven era that we're in, how has technology impacted the pursuit of ambitious goals, and what advice do you have for individuals seeking a healthy relationship with technology?
00:30:22:09 - 00:30:41:00
Speaker 2
So I think technology, is easy to vilify, because it's new and every generation flips out and has a moral panic about some new technology. When I was a kid, it was, they call us all couch potatoes because we watch too much television. And in my parents generation, it was rock and roll music that was melting their brains.
00:30:41:00 - 00:31:01:07
Speaker 2
And it was the radio. And all the way back to, Socrates bemoaned the written word, literally. The technology of the written word was said to enfeeble men's minds. So every generation flips out about technology. Now, technology is just a tool, and the goal of technology is not to solve problems. Okay? The goal of technology is not to solve problems.
00:31:01:09 - 00:31:27:04
Speaker 2
The goal of technology is to give us better problems. So when you think about the fact that for 200,000 years of human history or human evolution, we were plagued by, famine, right? Famine was always part of the human condition. Well, just in the last 50 years or so, this is the first time in human history where more people die of diseases of excess, obesity, diabetes, then do have starvation.
00:31:27:06 - 00:31:53:07
Speaker 2
That's unbelievable. That's incredible. It's a tragedy that people die of obesity and diabetes. But I would much rather have people die of that versus millions dying of a famine. So the problem that with technology is that it creates better problems, but they're problems nonetheless. So the same goes the same metaphor holds for our technology. For the first time in human history, you have access to basically anything and anyone right here in the palm of your hand.
00:31:53:09 - 00:32:20:11
Speaker 2
That's amazing. Right? Do we realize how unbelievably lucky we are to live in this age where we're never bored, where we have the world's information at our fingertips? That is incredible. That's never happened before. Now that solves a lot of problems. But of course, it's generated new problems. What's the new problems? Just like we have a glut of calories, we have more calories than we need to feed every man, woman and child on the face of the earth for the first time in human history.
00:32:20:13 - 00:32:42:03
Speaker 2
Now we have more information and entertainment than we've ever had accessible ever before. So this is now creating new problems. They're much better problems, but they're new problems. The good news is that we have always been able to deal with these problems. How do we deal with these problems whenever there's a new technology? As Paul Vasiliev said, when you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck.
00:32:42:04 - 00:32:56:21
Speaker 2
So of course it's going to cause these new problems. What do we do? Do we stop sailing ships? No, we didn't stop sailing ships. We sail more ships today than ever before in human history. Why did we ban them? Do we stop using ships? Should we ban technology? Should we stop using technology? Of course not. What do we do?
00:32:56:23 - 00:33:18:03
Speaker 2
We make technology better, right? So we always do two things. As a human species. We adapt and we adapt. So we adopt new technologies to fix the last generation of technologies. And this is a big part of what I show people in, in Distractible is about how you can use technology to get the most out of technology by blocking out distractions.
00:33:18:03 - 00:33:38:11
Speaker 2
Right? There are all kinds of tools out there, many of them absolutely free. Many of them come pre-installed on your cell phone, like Do Not Disturb while driving, for example. Everybody's got it. Unfortunately, not enough people use it. These are unbelievably, easy to use tools that, if you start using, will block out distraction on your phone because they're installed on your phone, right?
00:33:38:11 - 00:33:55:18
Speaker 2
They come built right in. So how do we use those? That's a big part of, of of becoming indestructible is learning those tools. But then we also not only do we adopt new technology to fix the last generation of technology, we also have to adapt our behaviors. So we adopt and we adapt. So, how do we do that?
00:33:56:00 - 00:34:19:21
Speaker 2
We have these new social antibodies, right? Social antibodies is when we inoculate ourselves against antisocial behaviors caused by new technologies. And so this happens all the time whenever there's a disruptive new technology. as Sophocles, the Greek philosopher said, nothing vast enters a life of mortals without a curse. And so when we have this something as vast as the Internet of course it's going to come with some curses as well.
00:34:19:23 - 00:34:36:17
Speaker 2
The way we fight, that is, we inoculate ourselves with these new practices, with these new norms. What does this look like? Well, you know, when I started teaching at Stanford, I remember, you know, kids would come into class, my students would come. They weren't kids. Many of them were grad students. But I could see half of them were on their phone, you know, during my class.
00:34:36:19 - 00:34:55:23
Speaker 2
Well, then the longer I taught there, I saw that fewer and fewer kids were doing this right, that they learned to spread this social antibody, that that's not very productive, that's not very good for you. It's disrespectful to the teacher. And now we see this actually with the younger generation with each other, that they know it's really rude to be with somebody while they're using their phone now when they're around their parents.
00:34:55:23 - 00:35:13:07
Speaker 2
Different story. Right? Because they don't want to talk to you as a parent. That's a that's a whole nother affair. but so the more we spread these social antibodies where people stand up and say, I am in distractible, it's my identity. And distract was meant to sound like indestructible. It's who you are. So if you say, hey, you know what?
00:35:13:07 - 00:35:27:12
Speaker 2
If we're gonna have lunch together, I want to be present both in body and mind. So let's put our phones away. Or you know what? I don't answer every single, message within 30s because I'm indestructible. It's who I am. And I say, oh, I'm done. I'm not sure if I can do that. That's so different. That's so weird.
00:35:27:13 - 00:35:46:10
Speaker 2
Is it's so different from someone who has an identity as a vegetarian and says, you know what? I'm sorry. I don't eat meat or someone who says I'm Muslim, so I don't consume alcohol. No, it's who they are. It's part of their identity. So we need to proudly start saying that we are indestructible. This is exactly how we spread these social antibodies, by standing up and saying, this is who I am.
00:35:46:10 - 00:35:56:04
Speaker 2
I'm not the kind of person who allows my time and attention to be controlled by others. I decide my attention, and my time. And this is how I. I choose my life.
00:35:56:06 - 00:36:21:22
Speaker 1
That's awesome. That's really found. Thank you. Last question. look at your expertise in behavior. Behavioral design. How can individuals design their environment and routines to support ambitious pursuits? And can you share any personal experiences where this approach proved successful?
00:36:22:00 - 00:36:55:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So there's there's several ways. and I think, again, you know, kind of bring this full circle. We tend to focus on the motivation side. And I think actually we should focus on the excuses side. What are the things that prevent us, from achieving our long term goals. And so, figuring out how we have the tools in place to remove the friction of doing whatever it is we need to do now, part of that, you know, part of grit is, is teaching ourselves tactics to persevere.
00:36:55:07 - 00:37:20:19
Speaker 2
How do we deal with discomfort? That's a big part of of grit. It's not, you know, suffering through it. It's also figuring out what are the tactics I can use to not feel that discomfort, the same way I used to write. so I'll give you a great example. so I'm a professional speaker and author, and one of the things you don't want as a professional speaker, an author, is stage fright.
00:37:20:21 - 00:37:35:22
Speaker 2
And for years when I first got started, I had, I think, I thought I had a very important message to share, and I wanted to get on stage and I wanted to share with people, and now and I was very motivated to do so. But I would get terrible stage fright. Even if it was a small crowd, I would.
00:37:35:22 - 00:37:53:14
Speaker 2
I can actually feel it right now just describing it. My throat would start to close up and I would start getting sweaty. Armpits, and I could start feeling the my heart start beating very, strong. And I could, you know, feel it in my chest. And I would get really bad stage fright. And I would start hearing this conversation in my head that I'm no good at this.
00:37:53:17 - 00:38:13:06
Speaker 2
This is too hard. I'm not ready. If I was a real public speaker, I wouldn't be feeling this way and I would start making up the story to myself about why the stage fright was somehow a reflection of my character and who I was. And then I started doing this research, that I'm, you know, been engaged with for the over the past decade and a half.
00:38:13:09 - 00:38:36:11
Speaker 2
And, I started learning about how important it is to reimagine your internal triggers. Right. That I, I, that I was making up a story about these physiological sensations. So if I was making up a story that wasn't serving me, I learned to make up a story that was serving me that was helpful as opposed to harmful. Well, how did I do that?
00:38:36:12 - 00:38:58:16
Speaker 2
So I still get stage fright. I still get all the same physiological symptoms. I feel them right now, right? I can feel my my heart pounding. I still have the sweaty armpits. I still feel the dry throat. But the story has changed. So how did that story change? I didn't persevere my way through it and in the classical sense of, well, just, you know, be tough and just do it.
00:38:58:16 - 00:39:29:21
Speaker 2
No, part of grit and perseverance is changing. The story is reimagining the internal triggers so the symptoms are still there. I still feel the exact same symptoms I used to feel before I would go on stage. But now the story has changed. How did I change the story? So now when I feel my heart pounding, or I feel the sweaty armpits, or I feel the dry throat, now I tell myself, okay, this is something that's very important to me and my body is preparing myself so that I can give my best possible presentation.
00:39:29:23 - 00:39:50:04
Speaker 2
So the reason my heart is pounding so fast is because I need more oxygen to my brain so I can deliver my best possible talk. So I've reimagined the internal trigger to serve me as opposed to hurting me. And so I think that's a very, very important tactic in terms of, of, how do we persevere? How do we, become more gritty?
00:39:50:06 - 00:39:57:14
Speaker 2
It's not just push through it and suffer. It's dealing with the discomfort in a healthier way.
00:39:57:16 - 00:40:21:07
Speaker 1
Linear. That's, amazing conversation. I've enjoyed the podcast. Totally. This is, you're very inspirational. thank you so much. I'm so proud to have you on the the program. You've given advice that will help people change their lives. We appreciate it so much. And we hope the best for you and your future.
00:40:21:09 - 00:40:24:04
Speaker 2
I appreciate so much. Thank you for having me.