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Welcome to All things… Episcopal where we talk about anything and everything related to the Episcopal church. This podcast was designed with young people ages 18-39 in mind and a place to learn more about The Christian faith with the Episcopal lens.
Clare (00:01.754)
Hey friends, welcome back to All Things Episcopal. Today's topic is one that I have long, long, long waited to address and to have the guest that we have on the podcast today. I have waited a very long time to have him on the podcast too. And for him to share his story and journey with the Episcopal Church since we started All Things Episcopal. Today we are talking about Episcopal literature.
liturgical fashion, aka the vestments we wear and why we wear them. We're talking about the fancy poncho that priests wear, why do people wear what looks like a full floor length black dress, and why are these clothes that are ultra party wear so ornate and intricate in their detailing? We're getting all of that and more with the one and only, the Reverend Chas Marks. Father Chas, welcome to All Things Episcopal
Chas Marks (00:58.807)
Thank It's good to be here.
Clare (01:00.912)
Woohoo! And I am also joined by my co-host, the fabulous Reverend Karen Schleyber.
Karen Schlabach (01:01.472)
And I'll you soon.
Karen Schlabach (01:09.417)
Hello!
Clare (01:11.686)
While I'm dying to talk all things liturgical fashion and vestments, before we do that, Father Chas, I would love for you to tell us a bit of your journey with the Episcopal Church. Have you always been Episcopalian? Do you have experiences as a youth or young adult in the church? How did you decide to become a priest? And because perfection is very boring and overrated, please share one glorious unfaq-
unfun fact about yourself. The weirder the better, all the well.
Chas Marks (01:47.831)
Well, thank you. It will be hard to share just one unglorious fact about me because there are so many, I'm sure. I did not grow up in the Episcopal Church. I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church and went all through Catholic schools, Catholic high school, into Catholic university. Felt the nudging that I was being called to the priesthood very early, probably when I first became an acolyte at about the age of nine.
maybe 10. And so I kind of, that was always there. And as I got older, I also became aware that I was gay. And I knew that those things were kind of, weren't gonna work very well together. And so there was a lot of time in my life where I was trying to figure all of that out. And so I did a graduate degree in theology at a Roman Catholic seminary.
and just kind of test the waters and see if maybe there was a way I could make it all work. And I opted not to. I worked as a lay minister in the Roman Catholic Church for several years. And when I met my husband Barry, then kind of needed to find a new church home. And so we were living in Memphis, Tennessee for a while and I wasn't going to church, which is a very unnatural thing for me. And a friend I had made said, would you just quit and come to church with me?
And so he invited me to his Episcopal parish, which is kind of funny because when I was at St. Minred where I went to school, some of my classmates gave me a 1940 hymnal from the Episcopal church. And they said, we think you might need this someday. So they knew before I did, apparently.
Clare (03:34.83)
Hey, always calls in an interesting way.
Chas Marks (03:38.076)
Absolutely, absolutely. But I was very glad to make that transition even though it was complicated and difficult at times. But since I've become an Episcopalian, gosh, 20, 25 years now, something like that, there's been no looking back.
Clare (03:59.074)
awesome and your glorious unfun fact.
Chas Marks (04:00.79)
All right, unfun fact, I don't like condiments. How's that? So when I get a hamburger, it is usually hamburger, bun, cheese, lettuce, no ketchup, no mustard, no mayonnaise, none of that. I don't eat any of it. It grosses me out for some reason. Yeah, it's very weird.
Karen Schlabach (04:20.013)
That is... that is unfun.
Clare (04:25.084)
So, am I understanding correctly that if you were to ever eat french fries, too, you would not eat ketchup?
Chas Marks (04:32.8)
That is correct.
Clare (04:35.054)
Interesting. Yeah, this is a very unfun fact.
Chas Marks (04:36.427)
Yeah.
Right. so, I mean, it goes deeper. So things like salad dressings. I will have a little bit of a vinaigrette on there, but I don't want anything. No ranch, none of that stuff. Yeah.
Karen Schlabach (04:54.861)
was like, you're telling me you eat dry lettuce?
Chas Marks (04:57.098)
Sometimes I'll take a lemon and just squeeze it over the salad and be happy with it. But yeah, I have no idea where that came from. I'm sure a therapist would help me figure that out, but I don't think it's worth it.
Clare (05:05.328)
Karen, I feel like you're having a meltdown.
Clare (05:14.382)
Hey, food is food and it's meant to nourish the body.
Karen Schlabach (05:15.597)
not gonna yuck your yum but it sounds miserable to me.
Chas Marks (05:21.302)
I'm obviously not going without.
Clare (05:21.98)
You
Clare (05:28.902)
Well, thank you so much for sharing a bit of your story, Father Chas, and your glorious unfun fact about not liking any condiments. So because this podcast is designed for young people, some of them are new to the Episcopal Church and some of them have grown up in the church. One of the goals for the podcast is really to unpack
Chas Marks (05:32.8)
Certainly.
Just just one. There are many others.
Clare (05:57.25)
why we do the things that we do. So when we ask our guests questions, we really try to answer a lot of the what and why to some of the questions that are raised by young adults. And so the most obvious question for this particular topic that we're addressing today is, what is a liturgical vestment and why does the church use them?
Chas Marks (06:24.086)
Sure, that is the question really. They are the ceremonial clothing that we wear specifically for doing sacramental acts for leading and serving and worship. I think it's sometimes easier to say what something isn't. So vestments are not clerical street wear. You will not see me walking in the grocery store wearing a chasuble. That would be really odd.
They're not a costume. don't dress up as a priest on Sunday mornings. And they're not, even though they are formal, they are not formal attire. So I wouldn't be wearing a cope to a banquet or something like that either. They are used only for our worship and then put away afterwards. They, in a sense, kind of help to make that time.
Clare (07:14.108)
Hmm.
Chas Marks (07:22.402)
to denote that time visually for us that it is different somehow, that it is set apart. And so we do things differently during worship. And one of those things is that particular people wear different clothing. They also have a role in differentiating who's who in our worship. So the priest or bishop who is presiding at Eucharist will wear that poncho-like garment, the chasuble.
Clare (07:35.42)
Thank
Chas Marks (07:49.333)
a deacon that's assisting might just be there, an alb in stole, they might have a Dalmatic on. And it kind of helps people to know that, this person has a particular role here and they do this and this and this, whereas that person does something totally different. I think it's also worth noting that the foundational vestment is the alb. That's the long white garment that we wear.
Clare (08:04.38)
Mm.
Chas Marks (08:15.792)
And it's foundational because it's symbolic of our baptismal gown. It's our christening gown. And so that's for all baptized people. And for those of us who have been ordained into the various other orders of ministry, we always wear those other vestments on top of that. It builds from that. But baptism is at very heart of all of
Karen Schlabach (08:47.905)
Yes, I'm a nerd over here taking notes. don't, I don't consider myself a liturgical vestment nerd like Claire does, but like, but still I'm like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. I got to write that down.
Chas Marks (08:59.376)
I prefer enthusiast.
Clare (09:01.116)
You
Chas Marks (09:03.222)
as opposed to nerd. Yes.
Karen Schlabach (09:03.229)
Is that not what I said? I'm pretty sure that's what I said. Enthusiast. Yeah.
For someone who is brand new to church, what are the first vestments they might notice?
Chas Marks (09:16.246)
Sure, I think the most obvious one is likely the priest's chasuble if they're wearing it because it is usually brightly colored. It stands out. A bright red chasuble on Pentecost Sundays going to communicate something, dark purple during Lent communicates something totally differently. So color does some of the work before any of the words are even said.
But I think it's also important to note that we don't only dress the ministers, we also dress the liturgical space. And so in some places you'll see a frontal on the altar, a kind of hanging that goes on the altar, usually in the color of the day as well. The pulpit might have a fall there. We call those paraments as opposed to vestments. And they help again to communicate that something holy is going to happen in that place.
Clare (10:01.308)
you
Chas Marks (10:13.759)
is where the Eucharist takes place. Here is where the word is broken open for us and proclaimed to us. the vestments of the church, the paraments, all kind of call our eyes to attention to different people and different places within the church.
Clare (10:34.584)
One of the things that you had mentioned earlier is how vestments can help us distinguish the role of each individual or even the entity, such as the altar versus the pulpit versus the lectern, et cetera. Are vestments meant to represent the person wearing them or is it the office of the church they serve?
Chas Marks (11:03.329)
That is a really good question. And I think it's one that should probably be considered by most of us who are in some sort of ordained ministry. It absolutely shouldn't be the person. It should be about seeing that person as the function at that particular point. So the vestments are there to really kind of cover up the person, to hide the person.
so that we can act as priests or deacons. So when you see me on Sunday mornings, you're not looking at me as primarily Chas, but as a priest in God's church doing the work with the people of God that we are called to do on Sunday mornings. So in a sense, they depersonalize us, but in the best possible way. They subordinate the individual to the office.
Clare (11:50.076)
Bye.
Chas Marks (12:01.397)
And then the office of course points to the one that we serve, that we all serve.
Clare (12:06.256)
Yeah, I heard once that the collar, maybe it was a stole. This was really early in my seminary experience that it was meant to symbolize the yoking to Christ, that we are to serve Christ in a certain capacity by the way we wear either our collar or the stole when we are leading worship.
Chas Marks (12:34.025)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And as uncomfortable as these collars can be sometimes you kind of feel that yoke.
Clare (12:42.412)
Yeah, a little plastic rubbing against your neck. I can't, I can't, I can't bring myself to do that. Just get it.
Chas Marks (12:47.543)
You've got to go to cloth go to cloth so much better
Well, I mean, I don't wear makeup, so it's easy for me to say that.
Karen Schlabach (12:58.989)
Thank
Clare (13:02.244)
Yeah. Which, I love playing with makeup.
Karen Schlabach (13:11.899)
So you already said that we typically only wear vestments for worship or for a sacramental act. So how is it that those vestments shape the experience of worship in the Episcopal tradition?
Chas Marks (13:27.959)
Sure, I think like so much in Anglican Episcopal worship, the vestments remind us of our incarnational faith, that God became one of us, that God became part of the created order and in a sense blessed all of the material world at that point and redeemed the physical world. So we embrace physicality in our worship.
We don't reject that, we don't push it away. And so we embrace it and we want to make our worship beautiful. So we use color and texture to create kind of a visual rhythm of our worship. That way we can fully enter into it. It's not just something that we have to think about what words are being said, but we can process things through our eyes.
use of incense through our nose, all those things.
Clare (14:32.88)
So I love that response because it leads us into the deeper, richer part of our Anglican identity, which is tradition and our history. So I'm curious if you can tell us a little bit more about how did vestments develop historically in Western church?
Chas Marks (14:45.175)
Sure, absolutely.
Chas Marks (14:56.119)
Sure, surprise, surprise, our Lord did not leave directions about any of this. He didn't say priests should wear chasubles. There should be this particular length and these colors. It developed over time. And really the clothes that we wear now, the vestments that we wear now, began life as the clothing that the people of the Roman Empire wore.
So the alb is related to the tunica, which was kind of their undergarment that they wore. The chashbol, as you mentioned, was kind of a raincoat, really. The cope was also derived from that similar garment. So the church started wearing these, and then they fell out of fashion in the regular world, if you will.
the Roman world and fashion change, but the church held on to them. And so the church took what the secular world discarded and then transformed it into something else. We just kept wearing the same clothes. So we're still dressing like citizens of third century Rome or something when we're dressed for the Eucharist. But the church has done that over and over again. We can serve things that the rest of the world has kind of pushed aside.
Karen Schlabach (16:27.647)
And apparently there was a change to vestments during the English Reformation that you have some background on that you can share with us.
Chas Marks (16:37.717)
Yeah, so how long do we have?
Clare (16:40.7)
As much time as you'll give us!
Chas Marks (16:42.871)
So all right.
Karen Schlabach (16:44.813)
you
Chas Marks (16:45.367)
So scholars now prefer, I think, to talk about the English reformations because there were several. And so the initial one, the one that most people are aware of is involving King Henry VIII breaking with the Pope in Rome saying, I'm the supreme governor of the church in England and the Pope has no authority here. That was a political reformation. Henry did that purely for political reasons that are
far too complicated for us to get into in the amount of time we have today. But in England after that break, the liturgy continued to be in Latin. It was the same mass that people knew beforehand. The church was still, had the same hierarchy that it had had before. It's just that it remained the English church and it was not any longer under the auspices of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. That was the first one.
things stayed the same for the most part, or very much the same. The real theological reformation didn't happen until after Henry's death when his son Edward came to the throne. during all this time, was the other reformations happening on the European continent. And the folks in England were not immune from finding out information about that.
And so some of the clergy of the Church of England were aware of that, were sympathetic to what the reformers were doing, like Luther and John Calvin and such. And so Thomas Cranmer was one of those. He was the Archbishop of Canterbury, named by Henry VIII, but also during Edward's life. And he is famous, of course, for compiling the resource that has become for us, the Book of Common Prayer.
You see in the development of the Book of Common Prayer how those influences kind of gradually changed the English church. So the original, the 1549 Prayer Book was really just putting the liturgies of the church together in one book that everyone could have and making sure that they were in the language of the people, which seems a no brainer to us, but extremely controversial at the time.
Chas Marks (19:10.731)
But then three years later, there's this 1552 prayer book where it's showing that Cranmer is being definitely influenced by the Continental reformers, by people like Martin Buser, who was more aligned with Calvinist thought. And so some of the ideas about the Eucharist and such started changing a little bit there. And then after Edward died, of course,
Mary came to the throne and the Church of England went back to being part of the Roman Church. And during all of this time, of course, people were being persecuted and killed. It was just awful and horrendous. So Elizabeth comes to the throne and has a very divided country on her hands. And so she's looking for a way to unify things. And so the 1559 prayer book is kind of a compromise prayer book, if you will.
And one of the important things in regards to vestments is that there is what's called the Ornaments Rubric in the 1559 Prayer Book. And basically this said that the ornaments of the church, all the stuff that we use in church and the ministers, so the vestments, should be those that were used in the second year of the reign of Edward VI. So that would have been the year 1549 with that first kind of more traditional prayer book.
So we're talking about all the typical vestments of the medieval church. So all of that was allowed, but then because of those continental reformers and some of the influence that they had, and we have these people called Puritans who had a particular way of looking at things as well, that ornaments rubric wasn't really enforced. so Eucharistic vestments largely disappeared from the Church of England at that time.
The cope was retained, but only in cathedrals and places like that. So if you were to go to a service in 1700 and 1650 in the Church of England, the priest would have been wearing long black cassock, long white surplice, tippet and hood, or the black preaching gown that was kind of the outfit for Protestant ministers at that time.
Chas Marks (21:35.967)
So to give you a short answer after that long answer, things didn't change, then they changed pretty radically.
Clare (21:46.886)
Sounds like the human experience. We want change, but we don't want change. So the English Reformation has happened. All of this change and not change is happening at the same time. And then we get to this point called the Oxford Movement.
Chas Marks (21:49.643)
Definitely.
Karen Schlabach (21:53.495)
We don't
Chas Marks (21:54.401)
Right?
Karen Schlabach (22:02.125)
you
Chas Marks (22:09.749)
Yes.
Clare (22:11.064)
and how that influences the Anglican Church and ultimately our vestments. if you wouldn't mind, can you expand a little bit about what the Oxford movement is and then how it influences our vestment use in the Anglican Church.
Chas Marks (22:26.295)
Sure. So the Oxford movement began in the early 19th century, the 1830s. It was a group of theologians and scholars at Oxford University who were looking for ways to embrace a more high view of the Church of England as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. And so they started looking at early sources like the Church Fathers.
kind of pre-medieval theology and said, you know, we're still a part of this. This is still who we are. We are not just a, because the Church of England is an established church, we're not just part of the government here. We are part of this bigger body, the church Catholic, if you will. So the Oxford movement itself was not about liturgy or investments or any of that.
really about theology. But theology, of course, has an impact on all of that. So if we're talking about the Eucharist being the real presence of Jesus Christ and bread and wine, and we're talking about the sacrifice of the mass of the altar, then maybe our priest should dress like priests. Maybe our altars should look like altars rather than the wooden table that was used after the Reformation.
And so another movement grew out of that called the ritualists. And these were people who were moving towards the really controversial things that like having an altar cross or candles on the altar. Things that we write that we take for granted were really, really radical at that point. They were so radical that there were cases of riots breaking out in London.
because priests were introducing some of this stuff. And there was an act of parliament that actually forbade some of these things. And so priests that wanted to use chasubles could be arrested and were in some cases and put in prison for that. And while that sounds all very wild and crazy and over there, there's actually had an influence on things right here where we are.
Chas Marks (24:50.232)
So St. Mary's Church here in downtown Kansas City is kind of a product of this Oxford movement. And when their church was built in 1880s, eventually a window was put in sometime in the late 19th century, early 20th century that has Jesus dressed in priestly garments. So he's wearing an alb and chasuble and stole and all that and holding the elements of Jesus the high priest.
Clare (25:18.908)
Thank you.
Chas Marks (25:19.608)
And it was controversial. It was scandalous to some of the good Protestants of Kansas City at that time, believe it or not. So things that we take for granted that we see every Sunday, in the year 1800, you wouldn't have seen those things if you'd gone to an Anglican or a Fiscal Church.
Karen Schlabach (25:33.357)
And the other thing that I to say is that we have a good investment scandal.
Chas Marks (25:44.182)
Right? Who doesn't?
Clare (25:47.396)
I mean, I'm kind of speechless right now.
Karen Schlabach (25:51.487)
Chas Marks (25:53.58)
Yeah, it's kind of wild.
Clare (25:53.916)
Which is kind of hard to do.
Chas Marks (25:57.228)
You
Karen Schlabach (26:00.618)
so I, I, I am also a priest for people who don't know that. And I, since I worked for the diocese, I travel all around and I'm in different parishes all the time. And some of them use very simple vestments or, I wrote it down, paraments. And some, and some use,
Clare (26:24.664)
Hahaha
Karen Schlabach (26:29.875)
very elaborate decorative items. And so why is that? And what does that say? What does that tell someone who is maybe visiting those parishes?
Chas Marks (26:38.23)
Yes.
Chas Marks (26:42.966)
Right, so in the Episcopal Church, we contain all of that history we just talked about. And so there are churches that were more, what was historically called Low Church, which meant prior, at least to the 1979 prayer book, that their primary worship on Sunday would have been morning prayer, more than likely. They might have communion at an early service, and they would have it maybe once a month on the first Sunday or something.
but their usual form of worship was morning prayer. And so the priest would wear choir dress. So the cassock surplice, tippet, all of that. Other places were more influenced by the Catholic movement within Episcopal Church. This area of the country, people like Jackson Kemper, for instance, were a little bit more, I wouldn't call them Anglo Catholic, but I would say that they were part of the high church movement.
before Anglo Catholicism really took hold in the United States. And so they were emphasizing things like Eucharist more regularly, even every Sunday like we do now, like the prayer book does now. And so we've got all those different elements that we're holding together. And really, if you go to an Episcopal church on a Sunday morning, you're probably gonna see one of three things. So you might see full Eucharistic vestments. You might see the priest wearing alchazol stole.
you might go to another place where you see a choir dress, the cassock, the surplice, the tippet or the stole. And then the third is a little bit different and it's probably what people in some places most commonly see and that's just the priest wearing an alb with a stole over it. And that's really a later development that comes from the 20th century liturgical movement. It's kind of an ecumenical
look because it's worn by Lutherans, it's worn by Methodists in some cases, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics. So you see that kind of all over the place. And while that's a good and holy thing and that's wonderful that we can all agree on something, that the other two are really more Anglican than that. So full vestments require a dresser, really.
Clare (28:56.934)
You
Chas Marks (29:06.71)
more historically Anglican than that more ecumenical.
Clare (29:13.232)
I really appreciate that you touched on that about unity within diversity, which brings, yeah, yeah, we're also the church of the yes and in my viewpoint oftentimes. But with that.
Chas Marks (29:22.582)
Right. Which is what? That's the Episcopal Church.
Clare (29:39.036)
You kind of touched on this earlier about how different parishes might express their liturgical vestments, so to speak. What is the difference between an alb and cassock and surplice?
Chas Marks (29:56.601)
Sure. So let's start with the cassock because it is really unlike the other two things. The cassock is the long black dress we're talking about earlier that most clerics wear, although it can be other colors. like bishops wear purple ones. When I was growing up as a Roman Catholic, one of my first memories of church was that we had an older priest who was a monsignor, which is kind of an honorary title.
Clare (30:04.38)
Mm-hmm.
Chas Marks (30:26.712)
Kind of similar to an honorary canon in our church. And because of the type of Monsignor he was, he was able to wear a purple cassock. And I was probably five years old and saw him walking through the church wearing that. I was just like dumbstruck. I was like, this is really cool. But the cassock is really not a vestment. The cassock was the ordinary street dress of the clergy. And so typically you shouldn't see a cassock
Clare (30:42.611)
Yeah.
Chas Marks (30:56.664)
in church, born for a service, unless it has an alb or a surplice over
Chas Marks (31:06.604)
it would be like wearing street clothes at the altar, which can be done and I've done it once, but it's not the most common thing in our tradition. So.
Karen Schlabach (31:19.32)
So why did you do it once?
Clare (31:21.532)
Hahaha
Chas Marks (31:23.508)
So we were in a hotel room at General Convention and it was the feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist and we thought that because it was a feast day we should have Eucharist. So I had a stole but I didn't have any all the other stuff. But it's it still worked. Jesus still showed up.
Clare (31:44.418)
Amen to that.
Karen Schlabach (31:44.93)
The other time I think I've seen people do it is like on Ahmaudi Thursday often. I've ministers wear only the black.
Chas Marks (31:58.381)
Yeah, perhaps Good Friday. And there's some conflicting tradition about that.
Karen Schlabach (32:02.699)
Maybe it was Good Friday. I don't know.
Chas Marks (32:09.206)
Yeah, I don't want to bore everybody with all of that, but let's just say that it came out of a different tradition and some Episcopalians kind of walked onto that tradition, but it's not really our tradition. So the alb, the alb is the, again, that's the long white garment, the baptismal garment that is available for all Christians.
Clare (32:21.638)
See you.
Karen Schlabach (32:23.053)
So the, so the alb... Go ahead.
Chas Marks (32:36.216)
The traditional alb is worn with two companion garments. That is the amice which is kind of a rectangular piece of linen that goes over the head and then comes down around the neck. It's kind of there to help protect the vestments. And then the girdle or cincture that is a rope that's tied around one's waist. There are more recent contemporary designs of albs that don't have all that, don't require all that.
They're a little bit more convenient, but...
Chas Marks (33:09.26)
I like the traditional way, that's just who I am. The surplice is kind of interesting because the surplice like the alb is white. and I should say alb comes from the Latin word alba meaning white. So white is the color that an alb should be, not off white, not oatmeal, not white. I don't have feelings about this at all.
Clare (33:33.372)
You
Clare (33:37.788)
I was about to say everyone get their bleach out.
Karen Schlabach (33:37.901)
Clearly, clearly.
Chas Marks (33:39.339)
Right. Yeah. So the surplice developed in the Middle Ages, you know, there's these beautiful northern European cathedrals made of stone. And when it was 40 degrees below zero and the monks are in there chanting the office and such, they needed some more warmth. So they might have like fur lined cassocks, which would keep them warm, but created a lot of bulk.
And so an alb was kind of a tightly gathered around the sleeves and such, and you couldn't really put that on over the warmer cassocks and such. So they developed the surplice with its more full and flowing sort of garment that has large openings for sleeves, those beautiful pointed sleeves that we Anglicans like. And it became more of a...
a vestment worn for like the daily office for sacramental acts outside of Eucharist. But within Anglicanism also became a Eucharistic vestment during those years after the Reformation.
It's perhaps the most distinctly English vestment that we have. We wear very long surplices. You'll see Roman Catholics wear a very different type that maybe have our square around here instead of rounded and might have shorter sleeves and such. But the long full surplices vary.
Clare (35:20.132)
I'm loving all this history. Again, the why.
Karen Schlabach (35:22.285)
You
Karen Schlabach (35:25.825)
Moving on down the vestment line, can we talk about stoles now? Right. Moving on down the vestment line, can we talk about stoles and why they are different on a priest and a deacon?
Chas Marks (35:27.008)
Right. And remember, I'm an enthusiast, not a nerd. Can we talk about what?
Chas Marks (35:39.384)
Sure.
Chas Marks (35:46.615)
Yeah, so the stole is the vestment that kind of gives one a clue about what order of ministry a particular person is in, be they a deacon, a priest or bishop. Regardless of whatever else they have on the stole will let you know, the way that they wear the stole lets you know that. So if you see someone wearing a stole in the Episcopal Church, which I should say that's a long strip of cloth, worn a couple different ways,
that I'm going to talk about, you know that that person is an ordained minister. So the differences are theologically intentional. So the deacon wears their stole across their left shoulder and then tied at the right or connected at the right around their waist, which looks similar to a servant with a towel draped across them. Because the deacon
that office of ministry has a particular charism of service. And so that's just a reminder of that. Priests have historically, when they're wearing mass vestments, when they're wearing a chasuble and such, would wear the stole crossed. So kind of an X across the front. And that symbolizes, again, the yoke of Christ. And some of us still wear it that way, but most people don't.
And then bishops would wear the stole hanging down both sides. And most priests after the, again, the liturgical movement of the 20th century adapted that as well. And that's been part of our tradition since then. So most typically you're going to see a priest with their stole hanging down on both sides. Yeah, it's the vestment of office, if you will.
Clare (37:37.692)
So we already talked about the chasuble and when it's used and we talked a little bit about the cope. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about the cope and the significance of it.
Chas Marks (37:49.538)
Right.
Yeah, I want to say one thing about chasubles before we move on. And that is that it is a purely Eucharistic vestment. It is not worn for anything other than the celebration of the Eucharist. So if there's like a wedding where the Eucharist doesn't occur, the priest would not wear a chasuble. It lets you know that mass or the Lord's Supper is going to happen.
Clare (37:58.342)
Yeah.
Chas Marks (38:20.651)
The cope is a similar garment and it is open in the front, hangs all the way to the ground. We most regularly see them on bishops probably. That's part of what bishops wear pretty regularly, but it is not a vestment that is only for bishops. A priest may wear a cope, a deacon may wear a cope, and in some instances, a lay person can even wear a cope. They are used for...
Most commonly, non-Eucharistic sort of functions or for part of the Eucharist, but they may change into the chashmul later. So processions, things like the procession on Palm Sunday, it's perfectly acceptable to wear a cope for that. Solemn even song, a cope can be worn by the officiant there. A wedding, when there's not Eucharist, a priest can wear a cope.
Clare (39:20.38)
Thank
Chas Marks (39:20.599)
It just adds a certain amount of dignity without having the chashole. And as I said, the cope was one of the only vestments that really stayed with the English church after the Reformation. So it kind of has a distinctly Anglican feel. If you watch, if you're a royal watcher, like I grew up being, some of those, the royal weddings and such, you always see these glorious copes that the bishops are wearing.
It's just one of the beautiful things about the Church of England and Anglicanism.
Clare (39:58.362)
Now I'm going to pay extra attention to the Archbishop of Canterbury and see what her, copes are going to be. I can't wait.
Chas Marks (39:58.764)
But it's.
Yes, I know. I we're all excited about that. Well, maybe not all, but all of us who are liturgy and investment nerds. The other thing I'll say about enthusiasts, the other thing I'll say about the Cope is that while Anglicans probably like them more than other churches, they are not just ours. So you'll see Roman Catholics wear copes, Lutherans wear copes, most of the liturgical traditions.
Clare (40:12.08)
Yeah. We're enthusiasts.
Chas Marks (40:32.47)
of the West.
Karen Schlabach (40:39.829)
Nice.
Chas Marks (40:41.109)
Yeah.
Karen Schlabach (40:45.909)
I like, I'm just gonna interrupt my own little aside here that like, vestments are beautiful and I love all the symbolism, but like I personally don't wear them because I have a heat regulation problem and like putting on a chausable or wearing the cassock and surplice instead of just an alb. And like, I am like sweating buckets through the whole service and everyone in the congregation can see that their priest is like dripping sweat from her face.
Chas Marks (40:50.775)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Schlabach (41:14.465)
which like feels not worshipful to me. So like, you just have to deal with no chasuble otherwise you get gross sweaty priests.
Chas Marks (41:25.941)
I hear you and I understand. also get hot.
Karen Schlabach (41:30.125)
You
Clare (41:30.78)
and see I'm the complete opposite. I'm like, how many more vestments can I wear so I can stay warm?
Karen Schlabach (41:34.689)
She's freezing.
Chas Marks (41:38.945)
I was at a church recently where their heating had gone out that overnight and I was really glad to have vestments on.
I was probably the most comfortable person in the church.
Karen Schlabach (41:55.842)
Yeah.
Clare (41:56.934)
Thank you church for your investments and the struggle.
Karen Schlabach (41:58.574)
Sorry for that interruption to our normal programming.
Chas Marks (41:59.533)
Right.
Yeah, I like that you're thinking practically here.
Clare (42:06.276)
Yes, very true.
Karen Schlabach (42:06.773)
Yeah. Okay, last major vestment item to explain is the funny hat that the bishop wears. But also I've seen priests wear funny hats too, so maybe we can talk about those.
Clare (42:14.94)
You
Chas Marks (42:16.811)
Yeah.
yeah, have, yeah, you could probably do an entire episode on funny clergy hats. The mitre is distinctly the hat of a bishop. And it is one of the more recent additions to the sacred vestments. It's only been around for about thousand years. So, you know, it's innovative.
Karen Schlabach (42:45.773)
Right, a thousand years, it's new.
Chas Marks (42:49.397)
Yeah, it is. And it's based on some older hats that were probably influenced by the Imperial Byzantine court and things like that. It's kind of like a crown. But in the Middle Ages, in the West, it became something a little different. It has a very distinct shape of kind of two triangular pieces, front and back, and then two ribbon-like pieces hanging down.
that are actually called lapits, because everybody should know that. Right? And the mitre is a symbol of the office of the bishop, along with the crozier, the staff that they carry that looks like a shepherd's crook, and the pectoral cross, which we see on other people now, but it used to be that that was a distinctly bishop-y piece of vesture.
if you will. So in Anglican celebrations of the sacraments and such, a bishop would wear a mitre for ordinations, for confirmation. But within the Eucharist, there are parts where they have it on and parts where they take it off. So if we're praying, typically it is off. If they are praying a blessing upon us or giving the absolution, it is on.
Yeah, just all sorts of different little minutiae that's involved there. The priest hat that most people have seen is called the beretta, and that's kind of a square hat with a pom-pom on top and some little blades, which is really, this will be probably the most controversial thing that you'll hear me say today. It's really not an Anglican investment, and Episcopalians shouldn't wear them.
It developed after the Reformation and so it's something that we have adopted from the Roman Church. The square cap, which is just more of a square wool cap, is, when you see pictures of people from the Reformation, that's more our style. And in the Middle Ages, they didn't wear berettas. That came about in the 17th, 18th century.
Chas Marks (45:16.609)
So while you will see some wearing it, it's not really our tradition.
Karen Schlabach (45:21.869)
Does it symbolize anything?
Is it just one of those traditional things or not sure? This wasn't this wasn't in the pre podcast questionnaire, so you didn't get a chance to do research for it.
Chas Marks (45:27.319)
Yeah, it's just one of those tradition things. so, mean,
It wasn't there. And I'm sure someone has attached a meaning to it because that's what we do in the church. But they were, they were, you know, like a scholar's cap. They're similar. They're all related to like the mortar board and things of that nature too. There's, there's another funny one called the Bishop Andrew's cap, which is Anglican and it looks like a mortar board, has the Beretta's palm on top.
So it's really kind of funny looking.
Yeah, sorry I don't have good answer for that.
Karen Schlabach (46:12.845)
That's right.
Clare (46:15.356)
Wow.
pom-pom hats in church. That's all I'm gonna be thinking about, pom-poms and hats. So as Karen was talking about, looking for the symbolism and the theology behind the vestments that we wear, one of the things that is most obvious that can...
Chas Marks (46:22.869)
Right. Right.
Karen Schlabach (46:29.869)
I'm scared.
Clare (46:44.23)
help us unpack the theology and symbolism of vestments is how do vestment colors connect with the liturgical calendar. So like the different seasons that we're in and go.
Chas Marks (46:56.725)
Sure.
Chas Marks (47:01.745)
and go. I really think you need a whole other show on this topic. I'll give you, hey, I'll come back. I'll give you a little introduction to it today. So it's one of the more obvious ways that the church marks its journey through the liturgical year is through the colors and the vestments are
Clare (47:09.084)
Does that mean we get you for part two?
Karen Schlabach (47:20.749)
Is there a search engine?
Chas Marks (47:31.424)
match those colors and kind of express that to the congregation. But believe it or not, the Episcopal Church does not have an official color sequence that we follow. There is nothing in the Book of Common Prayer that says you wear purple during Lent. That is not to say that we don't follow a color sequence. We just don't have it officially
Clare (47:47.982)
you
Karen Schlabach (47:48.653)
We're in right now.
Chas Marks (48:01.112)
We're not dogmatic about it, if you will. We don't have it written down someplace saying that you must wear this color for this feast. But we do follow pretty closely to what I would call the modern Roman Western tradition that other traditions follow to the Roman Catholics, the Lutherans.
But we have some particular variation as Anglicans. The most basic color sequence, which is ancient and also attached to the Eastern Orthodox as well is bright versus dark. So feast days get bright colors and fast days and penitence get dark colors. But of course, you know,
We're human beings, like variety. So it's become much more elaborate since then. But the idea that an entire church would follow the same color sequence is again, kind of a modern idea, only dating back to about 500 years ago. it too is an innovation. It is church time and we change very slowly.
Clare (49:15.918)
It's church time, folks. It's church time.
Chas Marks (49:23.605)
So this most basic pattern that Episcopal churches follow would be like purple or blue for Advent, with blue being a derivative kind of of purple. In the Middle Ages, you couldn't get dyes like we have. They used natural dyes. Purple was a very expensive one. It came from the area around Italy from these little sea mollusks. And so they used the closest thing to it, which was probably like a dark blue.
And so that's come down to us as an Anglican choice for Advent. For Lent, purple again, or another medieval English custom is the Lenten Array, which is unbleached linen, so kind of a brown tan linen with dark red and black. For the Orphreys, that's the decorative pieces to that. White or gold for big feast days like Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day.
red for Pentecost, other times martyrs, people who gave up their life for the faith, and then green for the kind of the long seasons of the year, the seasons in between seasons, if you will, Sundays after Epiphany, the Sundays after Pentecost. And of course people have attached meaning to these colors, but
Chas Marks (50:50.121)
I think that's just a natural instinct that humans do. We want to put meaning on them. I don't know that we chose green because of the, it symbolizes growth and such, but that's what we've kind of latched on to. There are some other variations that I think are worth knowing. So within Anglicanism, there's been the use of a really deep, dark red called oxblood for Holy Week.
looks very much kind of like maroon or burgundy to us, distinct from the bright red that you would see at Pentecost and other feasts. And on this upcoming Sunday, the fourth Sunday of Lent, also the third Sunday in Advent, some places will wear a rose chasuble or vestments, rose being kind of a derivative of pink, but we call it rose, not pink.
And that just symbolizes a lightning of penitence. It's halfway through Advent, halfway through Lent. And so we're gonna lighten up a little bit so that we can make it to the end. And also reminds us of the joy that we're getting prepared to celebrate. Another one that you don't see terribly often anymore is black. Black can be used for funerals and for masses of the dead, but that's pretty rarely seen outside of...
Anglo-Catholic circles, the people that kind of are the descendants of the Oxford movement, if you will. So color really is a language of its own. It communicates to us before we hear words. It tells a story. And I like the fact that we don't legislate this. That's a very Anglican sort of...
way of doing things. It's really a gift to the church. It's not something that we enforce. So if a parish can't afford to have two different purples for Advent and Lent, they can wear the same one.
Chas Marks (52:59.413)
Yeah, God will still show up if you wear purple this Sunday and not rose.
Clare (53:06.108)
I'm still stuck on the fact that it's not a rubric. I like my whole world has just been, like my whole liturgical world has been blown right now.
Chas Marks (53:09.943)
I know.
Karen Schlabach (53:10.215)
I know.
Chas Marks (53:17.109)
Right, right. So rubrics for those that don't know what that is are the instructions that are in the prayer book. And if you think it sounds similar to the word ruby, it's because they are connected, the directions were formally written in red ink. And that's where the word rubric comes from. Just another fun tidbit.
Karen Schlabach (53:40.635)
I love it when I relearn fun facts. Like I've definitely heard that before, but it had completely left my brain. That's a great one.
Chas Marks (53:50.058)
It is.
Karen Schlabach (53:52.878)
We're bouncing around a little bit here, but I think the next question that I want to ask is who gets to decide what specific vestments to wear or like as we were talking about colors, you know, which color is going to get used if there is no official rubric.
Chas Marks (54:10.709)
Right, so the color thing is a little bit easier to answer. Most places will generally follow the custom of the Western church, if you will. But as for, you know, does the parish wear cassock surplice and stole? Do they wear a chasuble? A lot of that is left up to the discretion of the rector.
However, I will say that rectors come and go and yet parishes have traditions. So a priest would be unwise to come in to a parish and demand that they change one way to the other without doing some conversations, some education, all of those things.
We don't want to disrupt stuff. We want to help people worship. We don't want to make it more difficult for them. So a good priest would be in conversation with their people about those decisions. But usually you come in and a parish will have, you know, chasubles and stoles and such, and that's what you wear. Of course, a vestry is going to have some say because they control the finances. So if you need new vestments, the vestry is going to have
have to have a vote on spending that money.
Clare (55:30.64)
That feels all too real right now for me, because none of the vestments where I currently serve fit me. They're all way too big. But some lovely parishioners have graciously given to help get some vestments for me. So it doesn't look like I'm playing a priest, that I can actually exercise my role as a priest, which is...
Chas Marks (55:50.049)
That's lovely.
Yeah.
Chas Marks (55:57.388)
Well, and you serve with some rather tall clergy people, so yeah.
Clare (56:02.49)
This is true. This is true.
Karen Schlabach (56:04.813)
Yeah, lots of times churches get chasubles that match the... I have to go look at that word every time... the paraments. So the altar hangings and the chasuble will match. They'll be the same fabric or the same design or something like that. But yeah, priests are different sizes and so not all chasubles are going to fit every person.
Chas Marks (56:15.447)
experiments.
Chas Marks (56:28.15)
Yeah.
one size fits all doesn't really exist.
Karen Schlabach (56:34.989)
Yeah. You know, well, I mean, the reverse could happen, right? Like a parish could buy a bunch of chasubles that would fit Claire. And then if I tried to go serve there, it would look like, like Tommy boy, like fat guy in a little coat. it would be ridiculous.
Clare (56:36.134)
Thank God.
Chas Marks (56:53.079)
Well, and there are different styles of chasuble as well. And so, you know, the one that we most commonly see is gothic and that's kind of big, but not just huge. There's another one called conical, which is cone shaped. And that's the most ancient style. And it's just tons and tons of fabric. They're very beautiful. They're very difficult to wear. I have just one. I need more.
But then as you know as things developed and they started using heavier and heavier fabric on those they had to start cutting it back because you know they wanted the priests to be able to elevate the sacrament and it's hard to do that when you've got all those that heavy fabric weighing you down and so they started gradually cutting them back and cutting them back until you get to like the 18th century when the the fiddleback chasuble was was pretty common on the the European continent and such.
Clare (57:39.676)
Mm-hmm.
Chas Marks (57:52.546)
And that's the one that it looks kind of like a bib, a little bit bigger than a bib, but it's, pretty small. So yeah, it's hard to see that that is the same vestment as the whole conical chasuble, but they're all from the same place.
Clare (58:09.852)
The more you know, folks.
Karen Schlabach (58:10.463)
also like not every parish can afford to buy all that stuff because it is very expensive and so I've also served at parishes where like they don't they don't even have a stole that matches their their altar hangings and stuff and so like you know I have to bring all my own things so that
Chas Marks (58:27.479)
Sure.
Karen Schlabach (58:32.779)
have a sword aware.
Chas Marks (58:34.325)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, in my position I travel around too so I get to see some of that as well.
Karen Schlabach (58:42.801)
So it does really vary based on what people choose to spend money on or what people, I mean, some people love the opportunity to donate money to provide that and maybe not every parish has someone who's willing to do that.
Clare (58:49.724)
Mm-hmm.
Chas Marks (58:57.728)
Absolutely.
Clare (59:02.864)
Very true. Meanwhile, I'm just trying to build my collection up right now. And I'm happy to have that time. So we have three more major questions and then we're gonna end with the traditional rapid fire questions and there are six of them. Hopefully they won't, you know.
Chas Marks (59:10.401)
Give it time.
Clare (59:28.604)
cause too much angst. But the final, one of the final questions I'm gonna ask is if vestments disappeared tomorrow, what would the church lose?
Chas Marks (59:45.612)
Yeah, so as we were just discussing, vestments are not crucial. You don't absolutely have to have them. But I think if we were to lose them completely, that our tradition would be impoverished some.
I think that there's something about that embodied theology that comes with the vesture, the color, the texture, all of that, that reminds us of God's love for all of creation. And we also lose that connection to our history as Christian people, doing the same.
that same worship that has happened for 2,000 years now and wearing some of those similar clothing. And the same for a parish. You might be wearing a chasuble that's been around for 50, 100 years in some cases. So you are carrying all of that history to the altar with you. It's a great icon, if you will, of the communion of saints that we're all gathered together across time and space and everything else.
Clare (01:00:54.076)
you
Chas Marks (01:01:01.163)
And then we would lose beauty, which I think would be the saddest part. I think God created the world to be beautiful and I think our worship should reflect that as well.
Clare (01:01:15.982)
Amen, amen.
Karen Schlabach (01:01:19.322)
Is there a particular investment that you personally find most meaningful?
Chas Marks (01:01:25.043)
So after this discussion, this might surprise you, but I'm gonna say it's probably the very basic undergarments, the alb, the amos, the girdle. That takes us all back to our baptism in the alb. I love the amos because it is a practical garment, but it also has some spiritual meaning that's been applied to it. is...
to be the part of the armor of God, the helmet of salvation. And so traditionally, there are prayers that a priest can pray as they are putting each of these vestments on. And the one for the Amos is one of my favorites. It is this place, O Lord, the helmet of salvation upon my head to repeal the assaults of the devil. I just love that. Because, you know, we...
Clare (01:02:17.34)
you
Chas Marks (01:02:21.409)
We are all people, we are not immune to things and it is easy to get distracted during, when you're leading worship by little trivial things to get lost in your thoughts at times. And so the amus to me is a reminder to kind of keep watch about those things and ask God to help me to avoid that. And I really love ironing a freshly laundered amos.
just one of most satisfying things to do. So maybe that's another one of those unglorious facts about me.
Clare (01:02:51.836)
You
Clare (01:02:58.096)
You like ironing things? Amethyst, I'm sorry.
Chas Marks (01:03:00.695)
Amethyst. Not an entire alb of their surplice. Those go to the cleaners.
Clare (01:03:06.615)
You
Chas Marks (01:03:09.537)
They have the tools necessary.
Clare (01:03:14.844)
So moving from something that is meaningful to something perhaps kind of silly, what is the strangest vestment question you've ever been asked?
Chas Marks (01:03:27.831)
So it's not really a question about vestments. It was a request to do something. So when I was the rector at St. Augustine's in Kansas City for the last nine and a half years, I helped them to acquire some new vestments for the church. And then I have my own personal collection that Claire has seen. And so some of the ladies thought that we should have a vestment fashion show.
Clare (01:03:49.604)
It's beautiful, everyone.
Chas Marks (01:03:58.092)
which I think is really kind of a cool idea. And so it may need to happen at some point, but it hasn't yet. But I think there would be a way to do it to kind of do what we've been doing today to talk about the history of how these things developed and why we wear them and have people walking around showing off different types of them.
Clare (01:04:19.132)
I have it on good authority that there's a retreat for some young persons in the Diocese of West Missouri that will be touching on the use of vestments while we wear them. I think they just found their spokesperson.
Chas Marks (01:04:37.111)
Hahaha!
Clare (01:04:42.202)
Not that I'm volun-tolding you. Okay, so we ask all of our guests to go through some rapid fire questions. Hopefully this will be a painless process for you.
Chas Marks (01:04:42.241)
Very cool.
Chas Marks (01:04:55.812)
Are they the same questions every time or are different questions?
Clare (01:04:58.48)
Yes, yes, they are the same questions every time.
Chas Marks (01:05:01.793)
I don't know that I've listened to a full episode. probably shouldn't say that, but haven't made it to the end.
Karen Schlabach (01:05:04.371)
So that's great.
Clare (01:05:06.717)
That's okay. That's great. That works in our favor as the co-host then.
Chas Marks (01:05:10.185)
Okay. All right.
Karen Schlabach (01:05:14.327)
So you're just gonna give your gut reaction first response. There's no wrong answers here. You don't have to explain your answer. You just respond. And Bishop Loya from the Diocese of Minnesota answered these. so it's nothing that's gonna title for you.
Chas Marks (01:05:34.359)
Okay, well yeah, Bishop Craig's wonderful. Yeah.
Karen Schlabach (01:05:38.869)
Yeah. All right. High church or low church?
Chas Marks (01:05:43.607)
Bye.
Clare (01:05:45.19)
Favorite part of the liturgy.
Chas Marks (01:05:48.638)
Eucharistic prayer.
Karen Schlabach (01:05:51.309)
Scripture, tradition, or reason.
Chas Marks (01:05:53.675)
Yes.
Clare (01:05:55.004)
Pick one.
Chas Marks (01:06:00.875)
tradition.
Clare (01:06:04.508)
investment color you vibe with most.
Chas Marks (01:06:10.433)
Wow. That's a tough one. I love all of them. Purple.
Karen Schlabach (01:06:18.423)
Would you rather Easter Vigil or Christmas Eve?
Chas Marks (01:06:24.585)
Easter Vigil.
Clare (01:06:27.74)
Church potluck must have.
Chas Marks (01:06:32.087)
Cake
Karen Schlabach (01:06:34.881)
That's it. You did it.
Chas Marks (01:06:35.209)
Any sort of cake. Okay, cool. Yay. No condiments.
Clare (01:06:37.478)
Yes, you lived!
No, no. Well, Father Chas thank you. Hey, he did say he's a traditionalist. Why mess with something that's good already? Well, Father Chas, thank you so much for joining us on All Things Episcopal and unpacking Liturgical Fashion 101, the vestments of the Episcopal Church.
Karen Schlabach (01:06:46.623)
A plain dry burger. Mmm.
Chas Marks (01:06:49.963)
Delicious.
Chas Marks (01:06:56.682)
It's true.
Chas Marks (01:07:10.935)
Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. Let's do it again.
Clare (01:07:14.224)
Yes, what? All right, go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
Karen Schlabach (01:07:20.182)
Thanks be to God.