Privacy by Design & Ethical AI with David Joosten, Cofounder of GrowthLoop

"Zero party data reflects what customers say they want; first party data reveals what they actually do." – David

In this Hot Seat episode, Jacqueline sits down with David Joosten, co-founder of GrowthLoop and coauthor of First-Party Data Activation, to unpack why so many brands are "doing" first-party data yet still serving generic experiences. They dig into the tension between what customers say versus how they behave, and why marketers need to reconcile that gap with experimentation, empathy, and better use of their own data. Discover why embracing AI decisioning and continuous experimentation are crucial, and learn how to navigate the ethical red lines of using first-party data and AI responsibly in marketing. A must-listen for marketers looking to future-proof their data strategy.

David goes deep on why composable should be the default (not a buzzword), how to think about clean rooms without creeping out your customers, and what AI decisioning actually changes about the marketer's job. From compound growth engines and agentic workflows to team structures and org politics, this is a roadmap for leaders who want first-party data to drive real, measurable growth — not just prettier dashboards.

This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch. Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? Hightouch is the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.

Timestamps

01:03 - Rapid Fire: AI generated content (Yay or Nay) and the marketing buzzword that needs to go.

02:30 - Is there ever a time to use third-party data ethically?.

03:54 - The most underrated skill for marketers today.

07:06 - Reconciling the gap between zero-party data (aspiration) and first-party data (behavior).

09:16 - The evolving role of first-party data in the next 3-5 years.

11:50 - Can clean rooms truly scale without compromising trust, and what's the next evolution of ethical data collaboration?

17:18 - What a "future-ready" Martech stack looks like in practice.

21:30 - Ethical red lines for AI: ensuring innovation respects privacy.

33:53 - The three-part advice for CMOs looking to future-proof their data strategy.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jacqueline Freedman

What is Making Sense of Martech?

Unfiltered takes on the biggest shifts in marketing technology. We spotlight what matters, who's leading (or lagging), and what's next. In Martech, clarity is power — and we're here to deliver it.

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Unknown
Welcome to the Making Sense of MarTech podcast, where we interview leaders and put them in the hot seat. I'm Jaclyn Friedman, founder of Monarch and global head of advisory for the MarTech weekly. Let's dive in and meet David Schuster. A little bit about him first.

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Unknown
David is the co-founder of Gross Fluke and coauthor of the first party data activation

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book, coming out soon, if not recently, alongside two coauthors, Elena McGill Fat and Oskar Kennis. With a background that spans product marketing at Google and data science at Stanford. He has become a leading voice in helping brands harness their own customer data to drive growth.

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Unknown
His work focuses on bridging the gap between marketing and technology,

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providing actionable strategies for organizations to activate that first party data effectively.

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Unknown
To start us off. One. Welcome. We're glad you're here. Thank you very much. Excited to be here.

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Unknown
And so to begin, we'll we'll start with a few questions. Kept going kind of low lifts, high insight. No consent.

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Consent required whatsoever with some rapid fire.

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Unknown
All right. AI generated content and marketing. Yay or nay.

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Unknown
Yay!

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Inevitable. And so, finding the right ways to do it responsibly, ethically,

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is the name of the game.

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Unknown
And those are the keywords. And I don't know if everyone is paying attention to that.

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Unknown
What is a marketing buzzword you wish would disappear?

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Unknown
All right. This might be a little bit of a hot take. I'm going to go with composable. And I know the guys is,

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Unknown
a song on giving. I see a lot of the category work that we've done in the past.

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Unknown
If you think about what it's for. I've always believed that it's got to speak to value.

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Unknown
And so while things like,

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extensible and open have come to mind,

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Unknown
I think Best of Breed, that allows someone to actually have the agility in the stack that they would want to do the best thing for each different component and capability.

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basically you're saying composable

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Unknown
is the given the standard. We just shouldn't be labeling it separately.

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Unknown
We we use it. I mean, now I would say that like we're trying to think bigger as to, well, what's the reason why you would have all this first party data linked to your channels, bringing all the results back into center?

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Unknown
The reason that you want to be able to drive faster and faster experimentation

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and therefore compound growth.

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Unknown
So the way that we've gone to market is we've built a compound growth engine. So it's, you know, runs with the gasoline at first party data through all of the engine of all the channels that you have.

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Unknown
And that's sort of the benefit and result, if you're thinking about it as like a business leader.

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Unknown
That makes sense.

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Unknown
So speaking of data, once again, is there ever an instance when you do recommend third party data?

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Unknown
Yes. Of course.

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Unknown
There are instances where you're trying to do it for, credit worthiness.

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Unknown
Or

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trying to establish identity. You're trying to use,

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things for ethical reasons.

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That still help you drive like, specific marketing outcomes.

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Unknown
So,

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Unknown
I don't think that it should be the backbone of most companies.

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Unknown
You know, marketing strategy. I think the days where you just, like, buy long lists, device IDs. Because, you know, that's for sale

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Unknown
or emails and then just, like, spam, everyone that's clearly long past. I mean, canned spam was, like, almost 20 years ago.

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Unknown
Now, believe it or not.

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Unknown
And then obviously we had GDPR, CcpA, and, you know, all manner of other regulations since then to try and prevent that behavior, even though we should have just not been doing it as an industry from the beginning.

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Unknown
I'm glad someone else agrees, because the amount of times I've had to fight off paid lists like it's worth it right now, it's never worth it.

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Unknown
No, I've even I've even tried. There are associations that allow you to sort of put you on the do not,

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mail or, you know, registries and things, and it's limited what it does.

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Unknown
amazing how many in the industry do not respect those.

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Unknown
Correct. Not to mention the little cabal for political affiliations, no matter what.

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Unknown
Yep. They they've written themselves out of those. That's right. So another quick question. What's the most underrated skill for marketers today?

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Unknown
I would have to go with, change management. So,

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if you think about

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just the nature of our work, trying to work with folks as advisors and, and, you know, in some cases, assistance and helping them make the changes that they want to see.

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Unknown
I feel like that's the most,

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used skill across our team

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and the one that when we find it in the people that we work with on the other side, the customer team, you know, the customers we serve,

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is the greatest reason why a customer succeeds.

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Unknown
So there's so many technology changes, you know, what's,

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how to do things ethically adds another layer of complexity.

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Unknown
How to bring people through old workflows in the new workflows. I know you were,

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you had your own experience in marketing operations.

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Unknown
you know, workflows and changing workflows can be a huge lift when you have a large team, that's gotten used to doing things, things a certain way.

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Unknown
Yes. It's very difficult.

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Unknown
The change management is just as hard as the enablement of that.

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Unknown
Yeah, definitely. It's just hard because it's, it's a softer skill. Right?

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Unknown
not like you can,

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Unknown
you know, you can study analytics and data analytics and data science. You can study. Those are like, harder skills. They're a little bit more clear.

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Unknown
And what you're going to do using them for and how to study them.

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Unknown
Change management is learn by experience. Like you kind of have to be doing it in order to and

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Unknown
be empathetic, be observant. See how things work with different organizations. Understand the cultural context you're in. All of that plays a role in how you succeed in changing the way an organization operates.

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Unknown
For sure.

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Unknown
And this is one's favorite question to ask anyone at a dinner party.

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I saw it firsthand. Who is someone you admire?

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Unknown
Whether it's professional or personal?

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Unknown
I would have to say, treat our any solid,

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currency, snowflake.

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previously, he had built,

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a lot of,

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Google ads

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infrastructure.

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Became SVP there

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and then had,

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courage to actually build his own competing company. Never, that was,

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trying to find an alternative business model to search outside of ads.

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Unknown
That was incredibly courageous,

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to take on Google like that and find,

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you know, what some people would consider,

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Unknown
you know, a better model from a business perspective that respects user privacy more. So,

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Unknown
while that business model didn't pan out,

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Unknown
he certainly made the most of that,

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Unknown
experience. He's now obviously risen to be recognized.

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Unknown
And in this current role, I think he's done so much to actually,

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imbue a new,

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product. And I thinking into the entire organization of snowflake.

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Unknown
So I'm really sort of like, proud of and I, I have gotten to know him,

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Unknown
personally. And, there's just those people that even though they're very successful, they make time

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for other folks, especially those that, you know, a little bit further behind in the journey.

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Unknown
He's one of those people.

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Unknown
So I would definitely put in the probably the top of my list.

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Unknown
That's amazing. It's always nice when both those who are successful

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Unknown
and have maybe had failures along the way are willing to have those conversations and be available and mentor. That's awesome. Definitely

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Unknown
All right,

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Unknown
let's dive in a little bit more.

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Unknown
I want to talk about your book. So in your book you write that zero party data reflects what customers say they want.

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Unknown
First party data reveals what they actually do. How should marketers reconcile the gap between aspiration and behavior when crafting personalization strategies?

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Unknown
That's a well proven social science, research result that, as human beings, what we say and what we do don't always align 100%.

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Unknown
And it's really important as a marketer to actually think beyond what people say.

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Unknown
I mean, Ford famously said, if you ask people back in the day what they would want, they'd say faster courses. They wouldn't set up an internal combustion engine driven car. So,

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Unknown
you think with a it's actually benefits lead. And so the way that marketers can reconcile that is,

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Unknown
you can never say, you know, better than customers.

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Unknown
So if they're saying something, you can never contradict that. However, if you keep sort of choice,

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and empower customers with options they may not have considered, and you frame it in terms of thinking behind what they're saying to the ultimate benefits,

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that they may be seeking. You might just be able to find something in the,

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marketing space that breaks through in ways that other competing brands just can't find because they're not thinking that critically about it.

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Unknown
Hundred it's really synthesizing. What do they actually want with what their words are saying and what their actions are saying? Yeah. And that's why you have to combine like the data science of it, which is figuring out what,

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Unknown
know, some of the analytics tell you with your own like intuition, empathy, thinking and like really putting yourself and knowing your customers, interviewing them

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Unknown
and asking the follow up questions about, you know, the five whys and those things that help you understand

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utterly.

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Unknown
You mean I don't need to build a five page

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Unknown
That is the reason why we should pursue something versus my gut telling me. And the data kind of looks like it's leaning towards it. Yeah, exactly. And that's where actually experimentation becomes so important because,

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Unknown
you know, in truth, like, none of us really know until, like, our customers act and tell us through their behaviors.

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Unknown
And so we have to just try,

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Unknown
to do things that align with what we believe might be, but be agile and keep trying new things and experimenting. And,

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Unknown
that's how we get to truth.

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Unknown
That's true.

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Unknown
reminds me of, like, the Wayne Gretzky quote that's like, you miss 100% of the shots. You don't take something.

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Unknown
Yeah. That's right.

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Unknown
Okay, so now talking, we talked a little bit about zero in first party and how that you really need to understand what their true meaning behind it.

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Unknown
Where do you see

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Unknown
first party data as a company's most valuable.

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Unknown
how do you see its role evolving particularly the next 3 to 5 years, which who can really see into the

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Unknown
crystal ball of the future as

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Unknown
much that forms are shifting towards your favorite word, composability

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Unknown
and AI integrations

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Unknown
then just all of the above.

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Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is

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Unknown
shift,

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Unknown
and I'm not the first to obviously suggest this is from,

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Unknown
a marketing stack that's driven by these databases behind different tools that help give an interface for a person. It's non-technical to do work with data

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Unknown
to one in which,

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actually, those barriers and silos fall away because the data is seamlessly integrated.

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Unknown
What that enables is actually AI driven workflows. So,

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Unknown
instead of going and living in a world where

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Unknown
the marketer has to think about everything in like a factory model process, which is

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Unknown
we generate ideas, then we do this, we personalize the messaging, we deliver these channels, and it's all kind of like workflow driven from a human perspective.

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Unknown
As we actually start to infuse our marketing technology, stacks of AI agents to be able to take certain components of those workflows, they will eventually be able to go more holistic, end to end, and thread the entire workflow so that eventually they'll be able to pull what data is necessary at what points to be able to drive an individual action, not just aggregated segments, audiences, and so on.

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Unknown
So I think as you think about the value of first party data, there's no doubt it increases in value. And the reason is that, like the same thing happens if you think about using. ChatGPT. When

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Unknown
you just ask ChatGPT a question and it just uses whatever knowledge it has, it's in a large language model versus when suddenly empowered with

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Unknown
the data available on the internet, and it can look things up and build little research reports like the specificity.

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Unknown
You get it just so much higher. And so the same thing holds true for how you talk to your customers. If you're talking about something where,

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Unknown
you don't have that good of an understanding with first party data of your customers, it's going to be generic. The result it's going to be maybe still be good. It doesn't mean that it's not effective marketing.

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Unknown
But it's not going to feel personalized. And it's very clear consumer preferences have shifted to like,

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Unknown
you know, show me, you know, me in a way that's useful to me and helpful to me without being creepy and and striking a balance. It's a tricky balance, for sure. Yeah. So speaking of that balance a bit with third party data as it's continually becoming increasingly obsolete and second party depends on trusted partnerships, what do you think the next evolution of ethical data collaboration is?

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Unknown
And can clean rooms truly scale without compromising trust? Because it's such a tricky moment and thing to navigate as a company where you want to have these partnerships or you want to leverage this outside data,

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Unknown
both non creepily and also you want to integrate. So

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Unknown
what do you recommend.

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Unknown
Yeah definitely.

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Unknown
There's a few things I'll break it down in terms of like the two use cases that most come up with those.

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Unknown
So there's obviously many. It's essentially like targeting and measurement or like the two sides. So upfront when you want to run campaigns,

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Unknown
who you want to send it to and how you personalized them is all kind of related to targeting. And so whether you're talking about partners sharing information, ultimately the person who's customers, it is I believe should be the one that actually sends out communications.

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Unknown
I think data clean rooms are, if done well, are the answer in order to be able to find customer overlaps, to send you know, very personalized campaigns that say, if you're a customer, both of ours, you might benefit from this new feature we launched or whatever.

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Unknown
On the other side, on the measurement, it has to be,

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Unknown
decoupled from the ad platforms and those that have a stake in the results.

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Unknown
I think that,

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Unknown
most CMO I've talked to don't believe the, you know, representatives. I'm not going to name any of the ad platforms, but their sales teams, essentially, that tell them how great the campaigns are performing because they see everything as a siloed slice. When a customer goes through an entire journey of maybe education and a few impressions across, not just that on a platform, but all of them.

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Unknown
And so in the future, what CMO is really want that I've heard from them is, can you give me a secure and privacy conscious way to see my impressions? At the ideal level across all these platforms, so that I can truly build an attribution model and a media measurement model that's comprehensive and doesn't double count? Basically. And so that's that's sort of like two sides.

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Unknown
I do think data clean rooms

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Unknown
could solve that. It requires a neutral third party to rise up and sort of become that,

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Unknown
I think for it to really take on the scale that it should and for some of these capabilities, economy to be just built in, in the background of platforms of marketing,

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Unknown
folks use every day,

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Unknown
it's not really,

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Unknown
likely to be effective.

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Unknown
Marketers have to learn data, cleaning technologies from the ground up, etc. when they're trying to, you know, do things in a privacy conscious way.

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Unknown
It has to be a media measurement platform that's done the work of signing partnership agreements, figuring out how to do,

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Unknown
data, clean rooms with the ad platforms and such. I think that's where this is headed in my optimistic,

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Unknown
point of view.

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Unknown
it sounds like someone needs to build that company. Pretty step. Yeah, I definitely

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Unknown
it makes a lot of sense. Okay, shifting gears a little bit,

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Unknown
wrestling. What's your current martech stack and what is your your team's favorite tool?

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Unknown
Yeah, definitely. So,

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Unknown
I mean, we're a company you can look us up is, you know, a little over 100 employees.

00;14;52;24 - 00;14;53;20
Unknown
So,

00;14;53;20 - 00;14;57;00
Unknown
would be considered by mid market as a company. So we use HubSpot.

00;14;57;00 - 00;14;59;10
Unknown
We use Salesforce, we use,

00;14;59;10 - 00;15;02;03
Unknown
you know, LinkedIn and, and a few other,

00;15;02;03 - 00;15;13;18
Unknown
campaigns and such. The way that we orchestrate though is with growth loop to be able to connect to like the same folks that, we would engage with on HubSpot to be sort of,

00;15;13;18 - 00;15;16;01
Unknown
ever present to build brand awareness.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;18;07
Unknown
If you think about a smaller brand like ours,

00;15;18;07 - 00;15;24;28
Unknown
takes a certain frequency and it takes a certain amount of awareness for people to build, brand affinity. So,

00;15;24;28 - 00;15;31;24
Unknown
I think that part of the stack, obviously, bias is highly, highly effective for us. However,

00;15;31;24 - 00;15;34;21
Unknown
you would ask the question, kind of like, except for growth loop, what would it be?

00;15;34;21 - 00;15;37;11
Unknown
I've been super impressed by the progress that,

00;15;37;11 - 00;15;46;03
Unknown
both Chorus and Gong have made in being able to derive insights out of the entire sales, process.

00;15;46;03 - 00;15;49;00
Unknown
Our team in a hackathon was able to take,

00;15;49;00 - 00;15;52;18
Unknown
transcripts of, you know, consented call recordings,

00;15;52;18 - 00;15;55;22
Unknown
and then be able to basically build like, very,

00;15;55;22 - 00;16;03;08
Unknown
targeted like action plans of like, what is, you know, what should we do next that's most helpful for this, this team or this prospect?

00;16;03;08 - 00;16;15;09
Unknown
Instead of thinking about it linearly, like you do in those sales processes, which is like their stage, you know, three and you want to move the stage for a lot of decisions don't work that way in real life. Real life is messy.

00;16;15;09 - 00;16;19;12
Unknown
And so that nuance can actually be captured there. So I would just give a shout out to those teams.

00;16;19;12 - 00;16;21;05
Unknown
I think they're doing fantastic. Work.

00;16;21;05 - 00;16;29;05
Unknown
That's awesome. Yeah, I definitely echo similar sentiments. And it's really helpful to from a sales enablement, but also marketing

00;16;29;05 - 00;16;37;10
Unknown
enablement strategy to approach to, to really understand meeting your customers where they're at and where they're sticking. Oh, I totally agree. How often would,

00;16;37;10 - 00;16;38;10
Unknown
marketing leaders

00;16;38;10 - 00;16;41;07
Unknown
be able to actually watch every sales call like it's impossible?

00;16;41;07 - 00;16;49;04
Unknown
You know, and you're lucky if they even consider it. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So the best way to feed marketing is, like, they'd already work with so much.

00;16;49;04 - 00;16;52;10
Unknown
And, generally speaking, in order to do personalization,

00;16;52;10 - 00;16;55;09
Unknown
this is one more data source that happens to be,

00;16;55;09 - 00;16;57;16
Unknown
one of the most valuable because it's closest to conversion.

00;16;57;16 - 00;16;59;10
Unknown
If you're a B2B company like ours,

00;16;59;10 - 00;17;05;22
Unknown
for sure. Yet the dimension team should be demanding that type of, effort work and,

00;17;05;22 - 00;17;08;25
Unknown
highlighting it and particular great content.

00;17;08;25 - 00;17;18;14
Unknown
So you describe future ready martech stacks as privacy respecting, insight rich and highly agile. What does that look like in practice?

00;17;18;14 - 00;17;23;14
Unknown
Yeah, it's a great question. So privacy conscious means that it's sort of built in by design.

00;17;23;18 - 00;17;34;04
Unknown
The like average marketer running campaigns obviously to keep ethics in mind. But the toolset itself should already support privacy in the sense that,

00;17;34;04 - 00;17;38;01
Unknown
suppression for content management and by specific channels and things,

00;17;38;01 - 00;17;43;17
Unknown
they should not have to consciously call that to mind every time they want to run a campaign that can be solved by technology.

00;17;43;19 - 00;17;47;09
Unknown
And so, like the technology stack itself, please answer those questions.

00;17;47;09 - 00;17;58;04
Unknown
the second thing you said was, insight rich. And so if you think about a lot of the systems that were in place like ten plus years ago, they're about just like sending campaigns out the door.

00;17;58;06 - 00;18;04;11
Unknown
Sometimes they would allow you to see just like, you know, open rates or things that are kind of like, I read statistics that are channel specific.

00;18;04;11 - 00;18;21;02
Unknown
Where we need to move to is customer centric understanding of what's happening. So specific customers respond to certain channels better than others. So if you're talking to someone in a channel that they just don't want to be spoken to, you're spamming them, even though that customer might want to engage with you in general.

00;18;21;04 - 00;18;35;09
Unknown
You know, email might be a stressful place for them because that's where their work stuff comes in. Or like maybe for them, it's like social media is a time where they're open to thinking about retail purchases or some interesting CPG product.

00;18;35;09 - 00;18;50;15
Unknown
And so the insight, the actual marketing technology stack into the future needs to figure out how do you drive things like retention, lifetime value, the longer term, bigger stuff that a marketing team needs to solve, or if it wishes to change the trajectory of growth for its business.

00;18;50;15 - 00;18;56;29
Unknown
And so you can do that now in the obviously composable model that brings together all that first party data,

00;18;56;29 - 00;18;58;15
Unknown
because you're tying it all together.

00;18;58;15 - 00;18;59;09
Unknown
The,

00;18;59;09 - 00;19;01;14
Unknown
third piece, remind me.

00;19;01;14 - 00;19;03;27
Unknown
Yeah, the third piece. Highly agile,

00;19;03;27 - 00;19;07;21
Unknown
highly agile. Thank you. So the third thing you mentioned was highly agile.

00;19;07;21 - 00;19;13;19
Unknown
That means, basically that the toolset you're going to use at any given end point is going to change all the time.

00;19;13;19 - 00;19;28;07
Unknown
You know, whether channel proliferation is the biggest example of this, where people used to only reach over, you know, email and, and physical mail, then mobile came up. Then obviously you have a lot more social media platforms today than we did 50 years ago.

00;19;28;07 - 00;19;32;29
Unknown
People started to use WhatsApp for marketing. There's just so many different ways to reach people.

00;19;32;29 - 00;19;39;01
Unknown
And as those things come online, you need a martech stack that supports the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

00;19;39;01 - 00;19;49;15
Unknown
One of the best, approaches is if you own your data centrally, you can plug and play the pieces on the outside of the spokes to be able to actually choose the things you need.

00;19;49;15 - 00;19;51;00
Unknown
And capability wise,

00;19;51;00 - 00;20;10;21
Unknown
you don't have to make compromises and say, well, like, because I need an all in one email plus mobile messaging platform, I'm just going to have to sign up for something that doesn't support all of the social media and platforms, and I need to reach like it supports the two biggest ones, but it doesn't support numbers, you know,

00;20;10;21 - 00;20;12;00
Unknown
three, four and five.

00;20;12;00 - 00;20;21;21
Unknown
That's not a trade off marketers need to make. So by agility, I mean you need to be able to make changes by owning the data and then allowing the rest to flow from your data strategy and AI strategy,

00;20;21;21 - 00;20;30;07
Unknown
I love that. Yeah, that's how I think in terms of modularity. I want to be able to plug and play when needed and where needed because contracts are different timelines.

00;20;30;07 - 00;20;30;25
Unknown
Yes.

00;20;31;07 - 00;20;59;09
Unknown
Features your own personal company requirements. Everything changes much more rapidly than we'd be anticipating. Yeah, definitely. And I talk about in the book, like not every company should go composable necessarily. Like, I know it's a little controversial for me to say, I will challenge you on that. I think most should. The vast majority should. That's fine. But there are cases where you're a small enough company or you have you only use a single channel and your team is just not ready to go multi-channel and things that

00;20;59;09 - 00;21;05;22
Unknown
in some of those cases, I'd say, okay, like the trade off of some of the complexity of managing your data.

00;21;05;22 - 00;21;08;12
Unknown
the juice may not be worth the squeeze for your specific company

00;21;08;12 - 00;21;16;10
Unknown
for sure. However, for anyone that's an enterprise. I like the the answer is very clear. You do need to own your data

00;21;16;10 - 00;21;22;20
Unknown
100%, and it needs to not be in silos, separated from each other, up in silos. Exactly.

00;21;22;20 - 00;21;30;07
Unknown
You highlight the promise of gen AI and predictive modeling, but also caution against premature adoption, which I think is very wise.

00;21;30;07 - 00;21;42;12
Unknown
How can marketing leaders ensure their use of AI respects privacy while still driving innovation? And where should those ethical red lines actually be drawn? Because it's very murky. Even if you're in an EU country with GDPR,

00;21;42;12 - 00;21;49;29
Unknown
there's so many unknowns. Everything is every day there's a new announcement of the world in some capacity. And so it's hard to keep up.

00;21;49;29 - 00;21;50;10
Unknown
Yeah.

00;21;50;10 - 00;21;51;14
Unknown
Yeah, definitely.

00;21;51;14 - 00;21;53;07
Unknown
There's a few things you've raised there.

00;21;53;07 - 00;21;56;12
Unknown
One is the team ready and then work should the red lines be,

00;21;56;12 - 00;21;58;13
Unknown
you know, in terms of premature adoption,

00;21;58;13 - 00;22;03;01
Unknown
machine learning, AI are like, highly capable tools.

00;22;03;01 - 00;22;10;16
Unknown
And so, like any technology that we've developed as human beings, if they're pointed at the wrong goals or something, you could really hurt a lot of people.

00;22;10;16 - 00;22;12;03
Unknown
So we certainly don't want to do that.

00;22;12;03 - 00;22;16;08
Unknown
It ties back to the question about the second part, which is around the red lines.

00;22;16;08 - 00;22;17;11
Unknown
Ultimately,

00;22;17;11 - 00;22;30;20
Unknown
because policymakers generally are responding to what's happening in market, many of us will be faced with questions in our careers where we have to make ethical calls on our own, without a regulatory framework to follow

00;22;30;20 - 00;22;36;25
Unknown
regulatory frameworks, really trying to basically put rules to that ethical, reasoning up front.

00;22;37;01 - 00;22;47;27
Unknown
Golden rule applies, you know, treat others how you want to be treated as a marketer. So that means that it's really about mapping expectations of customers and consumers to how you use the data that,

00;22;47;27 - 00;22;58;01
Unknown
you know, they provide or that you capture as part of their behavior and activity. So that that's really the understanding is like, how will they feel if they knew exactly what you're doing with the data?

00;22;58;03 - 00;23;01;26
Unknown
Beyond that, though, in terms of other red lines generally,

00;23;01;26 - 00;23;06;05
Unknown
you know, there are uses of machine learning and AI that lead to,

00;23;06;05 - 00;23;08;08
Unknown
well documented biases,

00;23;08;08 - 00;23;11;16
Unknown
that actually exacerbate inequalities. So,

00;23;11;16 - 00;23;15;08
Unknown
areas in that where in certain industries it's not regulated fully.

00;23;15;08 - 00;23;15;17
Unknown
In

00;23;15;17 - 00;23;19;24
Unknown
financial services in the United States, it happens to be pretty regulated with fair lending practices.

00;23;19;26 - 00;23;27;10
Unknown
So you have to be very mindful of what the AI models are trying to do. If you're telling them to, you know, look for,

00;23;27;10 - 00;23;35;15
Unknown
folks that are most likely to buy the, you know, highest premium product, there's a chance that it's going to bias that way based on historical trends and patterns.

00;23;35;15 - 00;23;42;29
Unknown
On the other side, the scope of data you use can be managed under a similar framework as your consent management.

00;23;42;29 - 00;23;57;28
Unknown
So you or going to have certain data that you can use to target and personalize with across your channels, that should be channel specific. We tried about this in the book. Like, you know, you opt in to email marketing, you opt into mobile marketing. Like those are kind of separate things.

00;23;57;28 - 00;24;02;09
Unknown
The same thing will hold true for a lot of the AI training happens.

00;24;02;11 - 00;24;16;26
Unknown
And I think there's like a whole lot of gray there in terms of the way that people are using data for training AI models, and it will definitely be like more evolution of people's thinking in that. But for now, I think that the easiest proxy is,

00;24;16;26 - 00;24;18;27
Unknown
consumer expectations. And then the,

00;24;18;27 - 00;24;30;10
Unknown
consent management being a driver of like if the data is available for like direct personalization and targeting, then you should be okay to use it for AI within the ethical constraints of like biases.

00;24;30;10 - 00;24;30;25
Unknown
And so

00;24;30;25 - 00;24;38;05
Unknown
I love that framework, both of ethical constraints and just easy understanding of the golden rule should apply.

00;24;38;05 - 00;24;40;19
Unknown
I, I'm a strong proponent of regulatory

00;24;40;19 - 00;24;43;26
Unknown
aspects because that's how you actually make sweeping change.

00;24;43;26 - 00;24;44;22
Unknown
don't think

00;24;44;22 - 00;24;52;16
Unknown
anyone would have blinded by anything GDPR was doing if there weren't actual real revenue consequences. And so I,

00;24;52;16 - 00;24;57;10
Unknown
hopeful we will have those guardrails because with constraints becomes more creativity.

00;24;57;16 - 00;25;00;19
Unknown
And so I actually think it's a net positive. And

00;25;00;19 - 00;25;05;23
Unknown
we shouldn't solely focus on the individual, fallible human to make those decisions for the

00;25;06;01 - 00;25;07;23
Unknown
the population at large.

00;25;07;23 - 00;25;11;06
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. Otherwise like I mean, think about what happens.

00;25;11;06 - 00;25;18;12
Unknown
You break consumer trust essentially over time offset. You tend to brand equity for the brands involved, no doubt. Exactly.

00;25;18;17 - 00;25;25;29
Unknown
Then consumers are preferring technologies like the email provider that actually starts filtering out any communications that are,

00;25;25;29 - 00;25;30;16
Unknown
not in line with the spam practices if that's reduced, like something not generally accepted.

00;25;30;16 - 00;25;41;09
Unknown
And so over time, like the reputation management matters and, and even organic ways that like, would hurt your business if you don't follow those. But it's a I mean, that's probably the toughest question you've asked me.

00;25;41;09 - 00;25;44;01
Unknown
Like that is a that's a very deep, I can be tone book.

00;25;44;01 - 00;25;46;03
Unknown
It should be honestly

00;25;46;03 - 00;25;54;20
Unknown
we need someone with the framework so we have the proper regulations in place that it it should honestly be a, a worldwide. Yeah.

00;25;54;20 - 00;26;00;17
Unknown
And a decision as opposed to up to certain countries. There just needs to be ethical codes that we're all following.

00;26;00;19 - 00;26;00;28
Unknown
Yeah.

00;26;00;28 - 00;26;04;29
Unknown
Especially when you're dealing with individuals health, safety

00;26;04;29 - 00;26;06;06
Unknown
and

00;26;06;06 - 00;26;19;14
Unknown
all of the above, like in and of itself. I think there's it's almost like a minimum global standard. And then some cultural specific stuff, like different cultures do have different ideas about some of like privacy and things like,

00;26;19;14 - 00;26;22;16
Unknown
I remember learning in, in Germany, they were like very strong,

00;26;22;16 - 00;26;23;09
Unknown
privacy,

00;26;23;09 - 00;26;24;02
Unknown
values there.

00;26;24;02 - 00;26;31;09
Unknown
And that exceeded most Americans by some of the social studies that done on, like different populations. And that comes from like history in some cases,

00;26;31;09 - 00;26;36;00
Unknown
where like, you know, there was you, you know, the Democratic Republic of Germany that,

00;26;36;00 - 00;26;41;22
Unknown
you know, was had the government monitor its citizens in ways that, like now, citizens are very conscious of that,

00;26;41;22 - 00;26;44;00
Unknown
are has not applied the United States to that.

00;26;44;00 - 00;26;51;04
Unknown
Yep. I love when history lesson comes back around because it always rhymes and makes sense for present day at all times. So

00;26;51;04 - 00;27;01;11
Unknown
yeah, it's just that, okay, so it's kind of taking a step back to kind of the broader industry at large with the development, I would say, of the term

00;27;01;11 - 00;27;02;10
Unknown
AI decisioning

00;27;02;10 - 00;27;06;27
Unknown
the general stack. Like, I'd love for your perspective on how brands are adopting it and what

00;27;06;27 - 00;27;07;09
Unknown
Presley

00;27;07;09 - 00;27;08;21
Unknown
is building to solve for it.

00;27;08;21 - 00;27;09;17
Unknown
Yeah, definitely.

00;27;09;17 - 00;27;10;12
Unknown
a good question.

00;27;10;12 - 00;27;12;24
Unknown
Some of the early research I've seen is that,

00;27;12;24 - 00;27;16;09
Unknown
brands are slower to adopt it than I think many of us expected.

00;27;16;09 - 00;27;29;18
Unknown
Part of it has to do with is the first example where, marketers are shifting in their role from like the creator to essentially an approver or even an advisor to AI driven systems.

00;27;29;18 - 00;27;35;21
Unknown
We haven't really built the frameworks in our marketing teams to work within that change.

00;27;35;21 - 00;27;36;29
Unknown
What I mean by that is,

00;27;36;29 - 00;27;41;28
Unknown
if I starting to make decisions about when to deliver something or which channel to use,

00;27;41;28 - 00;27;48;14
Unknown
as a marketer, that's sort of level one of a broader pattern. The broader pattern is the content will be personalized.

00;27;48;17 - 00;27;55;05
Unknown
The objective of the campaigns might start to be directed by. There's so many levels to what we do as marketers

00;27;55;05 - 00;28;00;24
Unknown
could be driven by AI and we start to relinquish some control. So I think that,

00;28;00;24 - 00;28;06;24
Unknown
a little bit of it is it's the first tip of the spear and a broader trend now, requires change management.

00;28;06;24 - 00;28;09;04
Unknown
And back to the question earlier about skill building.

00;28;09;04 - 00;28;11;05
Unknown
I wholeheartedly agree,

00;28;11;05 - 00;28;26;20
Unknown
there's so many companies that are like, what's a CDP? So we're yeah, we're we're slowly entering into all of these different areas and phases with where we're at. And, the next evolutions of martech, and not every company is on the same timeline, for sure.

00;28;26;20 - 00;28;41;25
Unknown
is rarely that technology. The limiting factor, in my experience, most of it or, you know, again, organizational frictions or like structural things like people are channel specific in their marketing when we're shifting the customer centric and channel agnostic,

00;28;41;25 - 00;28;47;22
Unknown
over time, as you have, composable CDP, let's say, or something that's more centrally managed for your audience targeting.

00;28;47;22 - 00;28;50;00
Unknown
those things definitely, play a role.

00;28;50;00 - 00;28;52;15
Unknown
second part of your question, what great group is building,

00;28;52;15 - 00;28;54;14
Unknown
to in the AI decisioning,

00;28;54;14 - 00;28;55;10
Unknown
part of the stack,

00;28;55;10 - 00;29;03;17
Unknown
growth was actually trying to re-architect around this concept of, yeah, agents that execute AI workflows. Now,

00;29;03;17 - 00;29;18;11
Unknown
that's sort of like figuring out not just how do we inform the current workflow process that marketers have of the linear process, but actually trying to think non-linearly about how do we actually have someone that thinks about identity resolution?

00;29;18;14 - 00;29;19;10
Unknown
Very deeply?

00;29;19;10 - 00;29;21;24
Unknown
Someone that can and can make really good judgment calls,

00;29;21;24 - 00;29;25;15
Unknown
that respect privacy but also work on the effectiveness of performance.

00;29;25;15 - 00;29;30;05
Unknown
Others that actually work through and think about the personalization from an emotional

00;29;30;05 - 00;29;38;17
Unknown
you know, standpoint that might connect with customers based on their entire purchase history and experience and reviews and some of their customer support tickets and so on.

00;29;38;17 - 00;29;54;22
Unknown
So if you're if you're thinking about it holistically, we're kind of working at the platform level and saying AI decisioning that is specific to just delivery, the time, and date as well as the channel, you got to solve the broader class.

00;29;54;22 - 00;29;59;02
Unknown
that's what we're focused on. And it's not like just narrowly focused on, the timing.

00;29;59;02 - 00;30;13;18
Unknown
Let's, let's try to figure out, like, how would I help us as marketers shift from creator to approver to eventually advisor, or strategic advisor, and then start to be more and more economists as we kind of build in the right guardrails.

00;30;13;18 - 00;30;23;00
Unknown
Yeah, I love that framework and kind of evolution of what the marketer's roles are, because I'm sure you are all over at LinkedIn or just like the marketer is dead and cool.

00;30;23;00 - 00;30;26;04
Unknown
Is that all the different things like that? Oh yeah, of course. It's so

00;30;26;04 - 00;30;35;03
Unknown
overrun. It's over helping. Everything is evolving. Yeah, exactly. New. Just like it always has. It's just at a more rapid pace and

00;30;35;03 - 00;30;47;22
Unknown
a conceptual capacity. Slightly different than what we're used to. Yeah. You know, you still see there are, marketing teams where, like, direct mail, you know, prior to the web era, you know, in some ways it's making a resurgence.

00;30;47;22 - 00;30;49;06
Unknown
Oh, yeah. And so

00;30;49;06 - 00;30;52;15
Unknown
because other channels became saturated, you know, become saturated,

00;30;52;15 - 00;30;54;03
Unknown
you know, frankly, my opinion on,

00;30;54;03 - 00;30;58;13
Unknown
SDR and cold outreach and those things is that's become very saturated,

00;30;58;13 - 00;31;08;18
Unknown
and it's not useful. And ultimately, I think what we're driving to as marketers is what's the most useful thing that we can do to serve prospects or customers if we can make that shift, everything else will follow up.

00;31;08;18 - 00;31;11;06
Unknown
It kind of goes back to like the Golden rule anyway.

00;31;11;06 - 00;31;15;25
Unknown
And then mapping back to channels and mapping back to content personalization and your goals and everything else.

00;31;15;25 - 00;31;28;02
Unknown
Yep. I'm on the same page. I shout from the rooftops all the email is spam at all times and yep, unintentionally makes some people might be like, oh yeah, they're their livelihood and I feel for them in that capacity.

00;31;28;02 - 00;31;30;09
Unknown
But there are more content based ways to

00;31;30;09 - 00;31;39;07
Unknown
do the same thing. Yeah, definitely. And to the framework that's in chapter nine actually, where, I go into how marketers roles are changing and evolving.

00;31;39;07 - 00;31;42;15
Unknown
And I do think that a learner's mindset,

00;31;42;15 - 00;31;50;10
Unknown
being able to experiment not just with the campaigns, but actually experiment your own workflows and how you might do things,

00;31;50;10 - 00;31;53;25
Unknown
actually can change a lot of the progress in the business.

00;31;53;25 - 00;31;56;28
Unknown
the way we do it is, we have quarterly hackathons,

00;31;56;28 - 00;32;05;07
Unknown
where the engineering team actually makes a big effort to think through things in a modular and extensible way so that even in a one week hackathons,

00;32;05;07 - 00;32;11;17
Unknown
product capabilities can actually, you know, go into the development environment and be shown to the company.

00;32;11;17 - 00;32;20;07
Unknown
And a lot of our innovations come through that channel, but also even like the actual workflow and the way we do things, we actually challenge the team to think a little bit meta

00;32;20;07 - 00;32;25;25
Unknown
and think about, you know, can you build ways over the course of a week that you would do your job differently?

00;32;25;27 - 00;32;35;12
Unknown
And just that mindset of like, before you just do the thing, think about how might you do the thing given today's capabilities that might be different than you did it yesterday?

00;32;35;12 - 00;32;41;03
Unknown
Yeah, I feel like that's a takeaway every company should take on, because I think it also

00;32;41;03 - 00;32;46;27
Unknown
puts everyone in a different state of mind of how they approach, any and everything they're one currently working on.

00;32;46;27 - 00;32;48;03
Unknown
But I'll feature things to.

00;32;48;03 - 00;32;48;23
Unknown
Yeah,

00;32;48;23 - 00;32;59;17
Unknown
because you can challenge, challenge your own normal. Challenge your own thinking and thought process. And honestly, it's up to this is where leading change management as a leader, you need to make it so you have an experimental culture.

00;32;59;17 - 00;33;06;02
Unknown
Obviously like within the right constraints and guardrails and things so that like you're not putting things in production that are, you know, you have to

00;33;06;02 - 00;33;08;03
Unknown
divide the world a little bit there.

00;33;08;05 - 00;33;14;12
Unknown
We still need you way in stage. Exactly. But like let's in within the sandbox environments and things like,

00;33;14;12 - 00;33;22;15
Unknown
work is a lot more fun when we actually get to like, play with capabilities, try things out, take a little bit of risk. Obviously within those guardrails environments,

00;33;22;15 - 00;33;28;15
Unknown
you know, you can have synthesized data that's not actually anyone's real PII when you're running things experimentally.

00;33;28;15 - 00;33;30;00
Unknown
But like, try those things,

00;33;30;00 - 00;33;37;14
Unknown
because if you don't, at the end of the day, like other people that are trying those things will just adopt them naturally at a faster rate.

00;33;37;14 - 00;33;40;09
Unknown
Yeah. I cosign everything you're saying.

00;33;40;09 - 00;33;55;21
Unknown
All right. We're we're wrapping up. I've got one really big question left and one small one for you. So the big one is what advice would you give to CMOs looking to futureproof their data, strategy and landscape that's increasingly defined by interoperable

00;33;55;21 - 00;33;56;29
Unknown
decentralization

00;33;56;29 - 00;33;59;17
Unknown
and data collaboration and getting thrown.

00;33;59;17 - 00;34;04;18
Unknown
We need AI without any yeah. Anything else from that sentence?

00;34;04;18 - 00;34;05;27
Unknown
Yeah, definitely.

00;34;05;27 - 00;34;11;05
Unknown
I have three things I'd say. Like, first, I would say, investing in a unified understanding of your customer,

00;34;11;05 - 00;34;14;03
Unknown
is paramount to pretty much everything else you're going to do.

00;34;14;03 - 00;34;16;10
Unknown
I understand obviously as a technical,

00;34;16;10 - 00;34;28;00
Unknown
part of that does require to like, partner, with technology teams or data teams, depending on the company and how the tech side of the business is structured, so that you can break down the silos,

00;34;28;00 - 00;34;28;28
Unknown
from the product,

00;34;28;28 - 00;34;31;26
Unknown
data that your company generates, the transactional data.

00;34;31;26 - 00;34;38;23
Unknown
A lot of the marketing engagement data, those are sort of like three key sources that that we see people pulling together most frequently.

00;34;38;23 - 00;34;40;15
Unknown
So that you can really understand your customers,

00;34;40;15 - 00;34;44;14
Unknown
analytically for data science, for personalization and targeting the Yaml.

00;34;44;14 - 00;34;46;02
Unknown
The second thing I would say is,

00;34;46;02 - 00;34;49;28
Unknown
to think in a customer centric way rather than a channel centric way.

00;34;50;00 - 00;34;52;07
Unknown
And there's a variety of ways that, that,

00;34;52;07 - 00;35;02;17
Unknown
is practically applied. So I know people say, I mean, it sounds like a big, big generalization. What I mean by it is, when you're looking at, setting objectives and goals for your team,

00;35;02;17 - 00;35;06;19
Unknown
rather than thinking about it as like, well, I want to hit these campaign metrics,

00;35;06;19 - 00;35;09;22
Unknown
for open rates or things that are channel specific.

00;35;09;22 - 00;35;11;27
Unknown
Even the way the team is structured sometimes,

00;35;11;27 - 00;35;16;01
Unknown
like there's like an email person and there's a paid media person and they have like separate goals

00;35;16;01 - 00;35;27;19
Unknown
is to think about it in terms of like customer segments and goals for those segments. So, I've seen a few companies do this really well where they have like new customer onboarding. It might have like retention as a goal.

00;35;27;19 - 00;35;36;15
Unknown
And they're trying to think about structuring their teams and capabilities to respect that. That's the goal of like this group is to think critically about retention.

00;35;36;15 - 00;35;39;07
Unknown
Every day. And so they're thinking about, well,

00;35;39;07 - 00;35;40;03
Unknown
why did,

00;35;40;03 - 00;35;48;18
Unknown
customer churn? It might not just be that like we haven't contacted them in a while. It might be that in certain cases that customer was sold something different

00;35;48;18 - 00;35;50;05
Unknown
than what they expected.

00;35;50;05 - 00;36;04;01
Unknown
And so actually they were mis acquired, mis targeted in the first place. And so maybe marketing is not really going to help unless you have a product change that maps to what that customer needs. And so there's so much depth on unlock. If you think about the world in that customer centric way.

00;36;04;01 - 00;36;07;07
Unknown
And then the last thing, I would say is,

00;36;07;07 - 00;36;09;12
Unknown
to just embrace constant experimentation.

00;36;09;12 - 00;36;10;26
Unknown
So we talked about this a little bit,

00;36;10;26 - 00;36;28;29
Unknown
I mean it at the campaign level or like, build it into the workflows. Like one of the things that we tried to, bring very early on in our platform and, 2019, 2020 was a automated experimentation engine, which then essentially for every camp, every audience that you're going to send across channels.

00;36;28;29 - 00;36;31;20
Unknown
let you build and longitudinal control group,

00;36;31;20 - 00;36;38;03
Unknown
that allows you to calculate at the end of this data driven. So there's significant uplift and whatever metrics you want.

00;36;38;03 - 00;36;39;05
Unknown
And so,

00;36;39;05 - 00;36;42;00
Unknown
by building it into the process, you can make it consistent,

00;36;42;00 - 00;36;48;17
Unknown
in terms of the methodology you use. So you can compare apples to apples and you make it so it's consistently used by the team.

00;36;48;17 - 00;36;52;07
Unknown
So it's not that some campaigns are tested and some are not. It's like

00;36;52;07 - 00;36;55;05
Unknown
every change should be tested. So you can really determine truth.

00;36;55;05 - 00;37;16;07
Unknown
And then I also mean experimentation in terms of what we talked about. People should try new workflows like experiment with new tools like bring that to work if they've heard about it at a conference, and like get the vendor to come in and like, talk to them because you might learn something about what you're doing, even with the tools that you have that you could be doing differently based on,

00;37;16;07 - 00;37;17;18
Unknown
that vendor's capabilities.

00;37;17;18 - 00;37;23;02
Unknown
So I just think that like those, those would be like the one, two, three. Obviously change management is like the umbrella for all of it.

00;37;23;02 - 00;37;25;05
Unknown
But those are those are probably the topics.

00;37;25;05 - 00;37;31;12
Unknown
I mean, that's all CMOs need to be in charge of. It's a tough job, especially these days.

00;37;31;12 - 00;37;32;26
Unknown
Oh, yeah. I,

00;37;32;26 - 00;37;34;25
Unknown
it sure is as sure as especially if you

00;37;34;25 - 00;37;38;29
Unknown
don't know where your data is, where it sits, and how to even leverage it.

00;37;39;03 - 00;37;39;18
Unknown
So

00;37;39;18 - 00;37;45;08
Unknown
it's think it's like a trust building between departments. I had the misfortune of, like,

00;37;45;08 - 00;37;54;04
Unknown
meeting somewhere. The acrimony between departments reached a point where they, didn't want to talk to each other. And so the CMO was choosing a siloed CDP on purpose,

00;37;54;04 - 00;37;59;02
Unknown
because it meant that they could kind of go around the tech team entirely.

00;37;59;02 - 00;38;02;24
Unknown
And that's what if that's your organization? I feel for you.

00;38;02;24 - 00;38;04;00
Unknown
There is a better way. Like,

00;38;04;00 - 00;38;06;08
Unknown
you have to find a way to to make that work.

00;38;06;08 - 00;38;07;13
Unknown
thank you so much for

00;38;07;13 - 00;38;10;16
Unknown
being on David. Who else should come on the podcast?

00;38;10;16 - 00;38;12;14
Unknown
I was going to recommend, actually, Tim Bronk,

00;38;12;14 - 00;38;14;04
Unknown
the co-founder of meta, writer.

00;38;14;04 - 00;38;21;08
Unknown
If you are interested in seeing kind of like the linkage between the future first party data and some of the third party platforms.

00;38;21;08 - 00;38;23;29
Unknown
He has the most nuanced understanding out there,

00;38;23;29 - 00;38;24;19
Unknown

00;38;24;19 - 00;38;26;14
Unknown
that the solution space right now,

00;38;26;14 - 00;38;36;18
Unknown
how do we actually build first party cookies but still actually get to take advantage of, you know, leveraging those to fine folks on other platforms and things?

00;38;36;18 - 00;38;40;03
Unknown
It's, it took me a while to actually rocket myself.

00;38;40;03 - 00;38;44;19
Unknown
All right. Well, I will take you up on that introduction and. Right.

00;38;44;19 - 00;38;47;05
Unknown
Where can folks find you? Find your book?

00;38;47;05 - 00;38;52;01
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. So, you can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the easiest place. David Austen,

00;38;52;01 - 00;38;53;27
Unknown
Jay Austin

00;38;53;27 - 00;38;58;07
Unknown
I'm always around to be emailed, actually, David at khou.com,

00;38;58;07 - 00;39;00;11
Unknown
especially for folks that are interested in the book,

00;39;00;11 - 00;39;02;10
Unknown
the books available at Manning.

00;39;02;10 - 00;39;03;02
Unknown
So you can,

00;39;03;02 - 00;39;05;21
Unknown
just type in first party that activation,

00;39;05;21 - 00;39;12;12
Unknown
and on the Manning websites already for sale. It will go on sale at Amazon on July 29th.

00;39;12;12 - 00;39;17;28
Unknown
So for folks that just prefer to buy it there, be patient. Wait, you know, six weeks or whatever this is,

00;39;17;28 - 00;39;20;22
Unknown
by the time you view this to be, we couldn't time it.

00;39;20;24 - 00;39;24;20
Unknown
So that week, if we want to make it, I don't.

00;39;24;20 - 00;39;25;19
Unknown
Yeah, that'd be cool.

00;39;25;19 - 00;39;26;20
Unknown
Thank you for being here.

00;39;26;20 - 00;39;38;06
Unknown
I.