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In part two of exploring queer style and identity, Zia speaks to Noel, a former UVic student on his experience living in Victoria and working in the fashion industry as a queer person of colour. Continuing from the conversations in the previous episode, Zia explores the commodification of queer fashion and culture and offers some reflections on how we can foster safer and more accepting spaces for all.
U in the Ring goes deep into issues at UVic, and investigates stories like the infamous bunny cull of 2012, the evolution of territorial acknowledgements on campus, and a crime that affected over 11,000 people at UVic.
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Hey
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it's quite honestly, it's Nick here and you're listening to CFUV one Oh 1.9 FM broadcasting from the traditional territories of the songhees Esquimalt and sinach people
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you're listening to CFUV one on 1.9 FM. I'm Zerah Hino, and I'm your host for you in the ring. On the previous episode of this two part miniseries, we cover topics such as what it means to dress queer, flagging how it relates to community and safe spaces, as well as the commodification of queer culture. Make sure to give a listen to part one to hear the interview of UVic students, Lindsey Skelton and Rachel Lee if you haven't already.
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In this episode, we're hearing from Noah Kaufman, an African American born Canadian who is working in the fashion industry in Vancouver. I asked no similar questions that I asked Rachel and Lindsey with more focus on his experience as a bipoc Queer individual.
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My name is Noah kosman. My pronouns are he him his,
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in terms of Victoria, actually just finished school there. So I just finished my major in psychology, and minor in sociology. But originally, I'm from a small town in northern BC called Smithers, which is like, way, way, way up there kind of move between Prince George and Prince Rupert. So very northern very small.
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Yeah, I just finished my degree at UVic in December. And then my convocation is this upcoming June, so two months from now, which is really, really exciting. So a little bit of background.
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I'm African American, I was born in Chicago, and then I was adopted and brought to Canada. So my extended family is Caucasian. That adds a bit of context, just to say, haven't grown up and like, his, like, I haven't grown up in bipoc spaces. And being in those bipoc spaces is something that I have kind of recently discovered through like going to school in Victoria and moving to Vancouver and stuff like that. But definitely growing up, I wasn't exposed to that as much intersectionality adds layers. So being white, you know, that's already kind of perceived as, like the standard socially. And then being queer is adding a level on to that. So you're already perceived that the standard and then being curious kind of something that was perceived as something that deviates from that standard. Whereas being a person of color, like you're already kind of deviating from that Caucasian standard, and then being a queer person of color that adds like another degree to that and other level of that. So I feel like my, my experience is a little bit unique in the sense that, yes, I have, I was raised in like a white household and like Mexican family as white, but like, I'm a visible minority, like, I'm a visible person of color. So I had already had to kind of, I've already had to think about that since I grown up and then realizing that I was clear, that adds another layer of
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another degree than also like being adopted that adds like another layer. So I feel like I've always known that I've been like quite different.
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And like maybe the reason why I haven't dealt so much into queer style and stuff like that is because I've really wanted to,
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I don't know, kind of be under the radar and kind of diminish myself because I have so many differences from like, this offer mentioned, like standard.
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So I feel like in that I kind of subdued myself a little bit. And kind of just wanted to, again, fly under the radar and just not set myself apart too much. But I think through growing up and becoming an adult and having the privilege like go to university and meet different people, I definitely came into myself a lot more. And although I'm not like, inherently part of that standard, I feel like I've gotten more comfortable in myself to allow myself to be able to like just the way that I want and kind of do what I want.
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I feel like my fashion is pretty concurrent or their work or just having my day off like I love to kind of juxtapose if I'm wearing like really nicely pleated trousers. I love to do like a graphic T or plain t shirt or a tank top. Or if I'm wearing denim that I like to like, layer it with like a tank top and a blazer or something so kind of juxtaposing, like business and like casual and kind of just like modern fashion in that sense. I feel like I've gotten to know my style so well that it's like the things that I wear are just
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innately things that I feel comfortable in. I feel like I never just intentionally for like, comfort, a style. But I just as I kind of said before, like, I feel like my fashion is pretty conquered. So whether it's something that other people would perceive as like, you know, this is comfy clothes or not like it's comfy for me. So I honestly feel most comfortable when I don't know when I look good and put together. And I'm just growing up, like my parents were always always instilled to me like, you know, be clearly be clean, like always make sure that your your shower and always make sure that you're like well put together and stuff like that. And that's suddenly something that I've carried with me
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into like adulthood. And I feel like it wasn't until I went to school and started because my degree is like in sociology and psychology, like learning about how like social structures and racism and intersectionality kind of plays into everyday factors of my life. But I realized that hey, like, maybe me being like, a person of color, like contributes to my need to always be perceived as like being put together and being cleverly. So I feel like that's something that is always in the back of my brain. And it always takes me a second to like, think about like weight auctions, that does play a large factor in how I go forth in the world and how I dress myself and how I wish to be perceived. I love that Griffin auction is very free. And it's interesting, because being a bipoc, I feel like, like we talked a lot about placing a lot of emphasis on like being friendly and being perceived as like, put together. But also being queer, I feel like there is a lot of freeness in that. So I'm very lucky to be bipoc and queer. And I feel like it balances out. So while I do feel that inherent pressure, I was like a person of color to like be friendly and stuff like that. I think my being queer and being around queer people, especially in Vancouver, because I just moved here in January, I'm just learning to be a lot more free and to let myself go and to wear things that like I wouldn't normally wear. So I'm finding a lot of inspiration in that as well right now, just a lot more freeness and a lot more giving cutting myself some slack. I do find it interesting that
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I feel like we are a little bit more free in terms of like fashion and whatnot. I find it interesting that like celebrities, like carry styles for white celebrities that like are queer to an extent are gaining all this notoriety for like being free within fashion wearing certain things where as like bipoc people have been doing it for such a long time and have not achieved that wide of acclaim like Harry Styles is like, known as this fashion icon. And like even straight people very much idolized him. But it's like, bypass people have been doing it forever. They've been doing it well forever to like they're doing a really good job, but they don't receive a half as much notoriety, which I feel like is what I have a problem with. And again, like it's hard, like, it's neither it's either either or, like it's not black or white. But I feel like things like that really frustrate me more so than like the average citizen like dabbling in fashion. I think it's more so like culture giving notoriety to certain people, whereas, like not noticing other people crediting some people with like, wow, they're really changing the landscape of fashion, whereas other people are doing it forever. Like I really, I'm more focused on how society perceives and like, allocates that acclaim, more so noticing, like, what kind of models people use to model on the website. But I think in terms of like, style, I don't think it's ever been like inherently white for me, or I've ever like thought about it. In that sense. I'm more so but like representation, like, again, in modeling and like marketing and advertising and stuff like that, rather than like, I guess the actual pieces of clothes. It's like who are you casting in these, like advertisements and using on your e commerce website? Like, is there enough diversity in that? I definitely am noticing that like, like a lot of fashion is inspired by like bipoc fashion. And now that's in the mainstream, and kind of linking that to who is modeling this fashion. It is like pretty whitewashed in terms of who's being casted to walk these runway shows and to be put on the e commerce website. And that for me is like kind of red flag because a lot of these styles and a lot of these fits are inspired by people of color. Which is why it's weird that like people of color aren't wearing these events and being used to advertise these items of clothing. queer culture can sometimes be interlaced with it being a trend, but I feel like if it's leading to more acceptance and leading to more people exploring
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I feel like it's a good thing overall. later down the line as we as it continues to progress. It would be really nice to separate like, you know, this is inherently queer culture, like people are educating themselves.
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Something that rather than having it just be associated with the trend, but I think inherently as to where we're at like, is kind of a good thing that it is more in the mainstream, whether it's a trend or not, like it's still leading people to explore themselves, getting people to explore their inherent personal style, and also leaving people to kind of do more research as to the roots of all of these trends. Whether it's by accident or on purpose, I still think that's inherently a good thing. Queer style is just freedom. And wearing what you feel comfortable and and wearing.
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You know, what you feel like is core to yourself. And we kind of talked about how, you know, you kind of second guess yourself and you're like, oh, like, I see other people wearing this, like, should I be wearing that, but at the end of the day, like, the things that people are wearing, you would hope are, you know, what they want to be wearing, like, those are things that they feel their best self in. And if that's not suddenly you feel like would reflect your best self. And of course, it's not something that you need to wear. But it's just like being authentic to yourself, and just having the freedom to choose what you wear, and how you perceive yourself and how you want others to perceive you. Just having that inherent freedom, I feel like is very core to your fashion as a whole. And again, like nothing's black or white, but just having those shades of gray. And just kind of erasing like the binary like being inspired by men's fashion, women's fashion, non binary fashion, just like being inspired by whatever you feel reflects yourself, I think is like such a core tenant of queer fashion. So I feel like yeah, that's what people should focus on just that freedom in that sense.
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When I was talking to no, we both related to each other about being a person of color and feeling the need to appear put together and clearly, it's interesting to see it in the lens of people of color being held to a higher standard, not just in skills or intelligence, but even in physical appearance in order to be taken seriously. Intersectionality is important to understand because it acknowledges how different aspects of one's identity such as gender, race and sexuality results in unique experiences, opportunities and barriers for an individual. And just to reiterate, no, nothing is black or white. The perception of someone should not be limited to a singular aspect of their identity, and his experience as a black queer person who works in fashion, he recognizes how the industry is still not a fair playing field for people of color. Despite how a lot of current fashion and trending styles are inspired by the work of bipoc individuals, they're often not given the credit they deserve and not celebrated as much as their white counterparts. There have also been cases where larger companies have been accused of stealing designs from small businesses and artists from marginalized groups. An example of this can be seen with the popular fast fashion retail companies sheen. In an article published by fashion magazine on June 16 of 2021. It reports sheen accused of stealing from small designers again. The title itself alludes to the repetitive nature of how marginalized groups again and again, are given the short end of the stick. The article brings attention to designer Maruyama Dlo, founder of clothing line sincerely Rhea, she accused sheen of stealing her dress design and selling it for a cheaper price on their website, and criticize major brands for continually stealing from black designers. Of course, not everyone has the financial means to always buy ethically and locally. But I encourage everyone to do what they can to amplify and support bipoc and local artists and businesses. Reflecting on no being inspired by men's women's and non binary fashion. The gendering of clothes is something that I personally have had conflicts with. So I wanted to hear Rachel and Lindsay's thoughts on this. I was also curious to hear their thoughts on fashion being seen as a vain pursuit.
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hate it, boo all around. Tomato, tomato, tomato. Um, I don't think it's necessary at all.
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I think that what does that even mean? Like who decides what that is? Also found in times that I've been shopping like in the quote unquote men's section. And I've gotten like weird looks and stuff like that just makes my relationship to gender so much more complicated.
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So I don't know I basically just bad all around don't gender clothing. It's a piece of cloth that we put on our body. Yeah, I think that like for like the only way I can see it being positive is it being gender affirming for trans people to be able to step into like, like a space that they identify with.
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But even in that sense, let's validate quicker. Let's validate trans people's experiences outside of clothing so they don't have to seek it out. Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. I was like, if you need that, and if you want that, like for a personal choice, obviously you can label whatever you need, but outside of like your own personal needs. Don't. The last time I paid attention to any sort of gender divide in clothing stores is
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nonexistent like, even all throughout high school Atlantic, when I was not even out, I was still shopping in the men's section or doing whatever, it's so much cheaper. So I mean, I hope that in some way, I'm setting an example for other people to be able to come forward and like have their feminine presenting, feel free to step into the men's section with me, we can shop in there. But I honestly don't think that that's even where the struggle is coming from anymore. I think that we've, like, all, people are pretty much comfortable crossing the boundary
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between the men's and women's section, it's just the expectation, the societal expectations attached to those clothing when you wear them, that's become the issue now. And I'm guilty of that, like it takes so much retraining to do. And I think the biggest thing that are the biggest change that I've had to be like consciously aware of is, if I see someone who I recognize as a woman, simply because of the clothes they're wearing, I recognize them and simply because of the clothes they're wearing, because they're wearing traditionally ordinary male or female type clothing,
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to not automatically associate that or to catch myself automatically associating that with their gender, which is something you think as a non binary person I'd be pretty good at or already doing. But it's so deeply ingrained in us that it still happens every single day. So I think the work that I'm doing to subvert these categories is to just check myself constantly on the way that I assume people's gender is based on what they're wearing. But it's like interesting, now, I, I have a hard time shopping in the women's section, just because when I do it either, like any of the clothing that I find there.
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It makes me super dysphoric a lot of the time.
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And I have that uncomfortable feeling that people are perceiving me in that way when it's which, again, is a matter of like checking myself and it shouldn't be like that, for me either. And again, as a non binary person, I should, I guess, not should.
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But I would want to, like have that mindset of just like,
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you know, just complete fluidity, and, and such. So like, that's, that's a super interesting that I will find myself unpacking in the next year or two, I'm very much predict for myself. That's so funny you say that, because like when I was talking about that I was very much placing myself as a woman entering into the men section, which is so not the experience that I first of all identify with, or non binary trans people identify with. So thank you for bringing that up. Like as super dysphoric to jump on the women's section, it still goes the other way to like it's still definitely is not just uncomfortable for feminine presenting people to enter the men's section. It's so dysphoric for people who are getting misgendered have been socialized as a woman to enter into the woman section have the expectations tied to that which is so real and something that I definitely should have touched on their
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style was like always been something that's been very important. For from a young age I was taught this is how you express yourself. I was always invited to dress myself however I wanted to so I wasn't really wacky of its growing up. My soul is pretty important to me in the fact that it needs to feel less like a costume and more just like something that is an extension of myself. It's pretty important. Not maybe not as much as some people I really take value in like where find clothes, wear them, what brand they're from the quality, that kind of thing. And it doesn't always show to other people. But to me, it's really important when I'm wearing an outfit that I don't like it impacts me a lot. I don't feel like myself. I don't interact with the people around me in the same way. Yeah, especially this last year, I feel really proud of the style that I've developed and how different periods of my life, how our I see them peppered into my style, and also the different aspects of my personality.
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What I'm wearing,
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really does correlate to how I feel a lot of the time if I'm leaving the house and something that I don't feel comfortable with, or I don't like think particularly vibes with what I'm feeling, especially because I wake up in the morning, and I feel different pretty much every single day. And so when that happens, like if I'm out and about and I'm like, Oh, I don't really love what I'm wearing right now I feel icky and I feel super perceived in ways that I really don't want to even just like for myself and it's just like not a good feeling. And I'll get home and I like change my clothes and it just changes my entire day. Like an internet like my whole mood will change based on what I'm wearing. Not Yeah, and I don't like place my value in what I'm wearing. It's just like, I value the ability
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I need to be able to express myself like that. Yeah, very much that it's not. It's not about how I look. It's about how I feel and how I'm expressing myself. But also it was, like, inherently No, I don't think that fashion is a vain pursuit just because it is so much about how I feel and how I express myself. But also, like, I'm an advocate for vanity. If you want to be vain. Go ahead. Like I feel like our idea and our villainize ation of vanity is so misogynistic just because it's so tied to like, women being like, obsessing about their hair and stuff like that cool. obsess about your hair, as long as you're doing it for you, and not because of how other people are seeing or judging you. Like, do whatever you want. I'm super vain. I love looking at myself, I love like making myself look good. And I spend a good amount of time and money doing that. And it is vain, because it is about how I look. But I'm doing it for me. So it also becomes about how I feel at home expressing myself, I'm gonna be a much more pleasant person to be around, if I'm feeling happy with myself. Like, if I'm feeling happy with myself, it's just gonna be more comfortable for me and for you like just like, point period blank. Yeah. And also just like, it's super fun to like, pay attention to details and like, add this and add that and like go through that extra like, I don't know, whether it's like when you're buying the things or when you're just putting them together. It's a whole process. Again, like putting together an outfit is a process and like a creative outlet. It really is.
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And it's like something that you can be proud of, you're like, Oh, I really put together my fit today. It's, it's yeah, it's good. Also, all of this broadly just fits into confidence too. And it affects how I talk and interact with people and so much of my identity and personality is based on my confidence,
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which I think everyone can attest to.
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And like fashion and how I look and how I present myself has a huge role in that like the first thing. Like when you asked me how I felt about my outfit, I was like these boots made me feel powerful, you know, like they make me feel confident, which affects how I talk to people and how I feel in class and how I feel at work. You know,
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there is so much value and feeling comfortable in yourself and what you wear. When shopping, especially during pride month, you may notice an abundance of rainbows. Rainbows are known to be a symbol of the LGBTQ plus community. More recently, it seems like this symbol has been used by large companies as a sort of facade that they care and our allies. However, not much else is done to show true support. And you can notice this when the rainbow start to disappear. The moment June ends. I wanted to hear Rachel and Lindsay's opinions on the rainbow.
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I do love a good rainbow. But it's also not the only thing I know I get a lot of mail from my mother. And as soon as my mother kind of like, found out that I was queer, it's all rainbow. The only thing I received from her in the mail is like rainbow stickers rainbow this rainbow that I'm like, that's cool. But you know, I love the color green. I love the color brown. Maybe send me things that are those.
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But I honestly don't have like, I like Rambo. I think it's like unknown colors. Cool. I haven't really put too much thought into it, to be honest. But I also don't like how it's like a commodity now for a lot of like everywhere.
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And also just like blatantly smacked places just to be like, Oh, we support the queer community when it's like, yeah, yeah, it's been super co opted by capitalism to, to bring in profit, and to exploit customers on their, the basis of their identity and,
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and whatnot, which is ridiculous, because it's what, like capitalism is capitalism is the system that's reproducing the type of homophobia that requires us to seek out these things that are signaling us in. So it's very much a reproducing cycle.
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And it is really, like, it's cool that we have that symbol. And in the past, I feel like it's been super beneficial and liberating. Now, I appreciate the history of it. But it's really general. Like it's really general. Like I'm really specific in how I identify like, I am specifically a lesbian, and I want attention drawn to the fact that I am not attracted to men. And when you know, we're placed all under this umbrella of just the rainbow. Like cool, that's a sense of community and we're all in this together. But we all have really like hyper specific experiences with what it means to be gay. Um,
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And I feel like the rainbow can get a little bit generalizing in that sense.
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But not to condemn the rainbow symbolism for that it's to condemn society for not educating itself on the individual experiences of different different gay people and identities within the gay community. Well, I have to agree with that completely. Throughout the process of making this episode, I really appreciated being able to have these conversations and be a part of this community. The main thing I would hope for you to take away is that queer identities and queer culture is incredibly complex. And having an open mind and being open to learning and talking about these concepts is a great way to create safe and accepting spaces.
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I think just like, educate yourself on like, ask your queer friends, if they have the time and energy to offer you an explanation. Ask them what their style means to them, and how they might think that you're contributing to or harming their perception of like queerness and identity through what you're wearing. If you're a straight person, or if you're not a straight person, and you want to explore that, again, ask for advice on how to do that in a respectful way. Yeah, I think awareness is the biggest thing. Please take your gender studies class, if you can. It is so helpful and provides so much context to so many of the things that we're talking about today. Yeah, I think the biggest theme from this is just commodification, the commodification of queer spaces when we were talking about, like gay bars, the commodification of queer fashion, and how like the tokenization of that is used
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to signal coolness and whatnot.
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And just be aware that queer identities are not a commodity. And if you are dressing queer because you're using it as a commodity, don't, don't do it. It is not something that is meant to make you look more cool. Going to queer spaces is not something that you're meant to do because it's cute. being queer is non commodity, it's a lifestyle and treated as such.
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As mentioned in this episode, taking a gender studies course like gender 100 at UVic can provide some awesome context to conversations around gender and the gender binary. If a university course isn't accessible, we wanted to share some other free digital resources. There are a variety of free courses available online, including queering identities LGBTQ plus sexuality, and gender identity offered through Coursera by the University of Colorado, you can check out more options by searching Gender Studies course on Coursera. A shorter video to watch about LGBTQ plus identities is PFLAG What the Plus understanding and supporting expensive LGBTQ plus identities recording and training toolkit. If you'd like to listen to more podcasts CFUV is taking up space podcast as episodes including gender magic, gender, identity and sexuality. And you better work to end the gender binary parts one and two that you can check out at CFUV podcasts or by visiting cfuv.ca. links to the resources mentioned will be accessible through the show notes of this episode.
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This episode was produced by XIA Mahina with help from Nicola watts, thank you to our guests no kosman Lindsey skeleton and Rachel Lee. This program would not have been possible without the support of the University of Victoria and the work study program. Inter track produced by Zerah Hino if you liked what you heard, check out other episodes of you in the ring and subscribe rate and review wherever you get your podcasts.
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And that's like kind of what I have in the silo icon right now. You know that really fun trend? Or like just on tick tock? It's like, oh, my fashion icon. Oh, that one fish off of Finding Nemo. Yeah, legit. Only only queer people understand. It's like, ah, that one talking garbage can Oh, like, oh my gosh, those are so fun. So probably same. I relate the talking garbage guy. Oh, yeah. What's your style like on um, maybe a garbage?
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Elma Elmo,
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Elmo shaping his body on a good day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai