Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson and the host of Essential Dynamics podcast. Essential Dynamics is a thinking framework that I've been working on to help people and organizations deal with tricky situations. And on the Essential Dynamic podcast, we explore the concepts of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. I'm very excited today to have Angela Montgomery with me, who I believe is a very interesting person.
Derek:Angela, welcome.
Angela:Hello. Good to see you there.
Derek:Good good to see you. Good to see you again. So Angela is with Intelligent Management. And in previous podcast episodes back in episode fifty seven and fifty eight, we had her partner, Domenico Lapore, on talking about getting unstuck. And, today, we're excited to have, the other another, representative of intelligent management on.
Derek:And Angela has written a book called The Human Constraint, and that's actually how we met. And I don't know if you, even recall us, Angela, but, I was studying the theory of constraints and found your book. So I, bought your book online, and then I was very surprised to get an email from you saying, thank you for buying my book. Here's some here's some stuff about my book. Right.
Derek:I know I think that might be the first time that that's happened to me. So when did you write the book?
Angela:Well, I wrote the book actually, some time ago. It was the fruit of several experiences of ours, several major case histories, with intelligent management, that has developed a management methodology that we call the Decalogue, which was has been around since actually 1999. We first started out in Italy, in Milan, Italy, and that's where, Domenico Lepore founded the company first and, where we had a team of engineers and mathematicians, philosopher, physicists also working with us. Domenico is a physicist as is our partner, Giovanny, CEP in Toronto. And, so as we develop this management methodology and implemented it in increasingly complex context over the years.
Angela:We were very lucky because, I don't know if people know, but in Milan, in area of Italy is really dense in companies and businesses and entrepreneurship. So it was the perfect setting, to have this methodology developed and then test it out in different companies, more and more. And as a result of having increasing success with, the implementations and actually then being engaged by a failing American multinational, that came to Milan to speak to us and, learn what we were doing and decided to take this method methodology on globally. As a result of that, we helped them do a major turnaround from almost chapter 11 to, to profitability, to reducing debt, to really creating a new lease of life for the company from taking the share price from $2 to 16. It was an amazing amazing experience that and on the, you know, on the the the shirttails of that experience, we engaged with the top management of that company and decided to start a whole new project in New York, going through Wall Street raising money to buy and manage companies based on this methodology.
Angela:And that's why we, relocated in 02/2006 to New York and, started on this project. So, that was the, major project that brought together all the experience that we had had up until that point, and allowed us to put into practice all the things that, we had all the theory that we had put into the methodology and all the practice that had come over the years, into such a major project. And it was a result as a result of that project that, we had the greatest exposure ever, of this approach to management. And it was the the scope of that was to, unify several different locations and units of a one particular business, that were all running separately or being managed separately and unite them into one, unified whole system. So it was an incredible venture.
Angela:It was, for us, unbelievably exciting to go through this whole process, and actually very, very challenging to go through, things that we were not familiar with, which is like the whole Wall Street experience. That was completely new to us. And so that was a project that was incredibly enriching and, and for the methodology was an amazing testing ground. However, it was the timing of that was unfortunate because, 02/2006 is when we started and then through 02/1989, the global crisis hit, so strongly that, the project was in too delicate a phase of transformation for it to withstand, the onslaught of everything that happened in those years. So that, project, was so was so engaging and so life changing in so many ways, that I really felt that I wanted to capture, that experience and some of the previous experiences we'd had in a narrative form.
Angela:So I started working on the book, in fact, in, 2012 and, completed the the version of it that I, that I that you read, Derek, that you bought. But then, this year, it will be coming out with Taylor and Francis who, who are publishing, the version that I have updated, and I've added a whole section about the thinking processes and the theory of constraints. So, so it's very exciting for me to see that, that that has been taken on by Taylor and Francis. But it's a it's a project that has been around for a little while, And in fact, it was as it was conceived as a web project. So you downloaded it, and, it was, in fact, downloaded in 43 different countries around the world, which is amazing to me.
Angela:But as I come from a a a literature background, the idea of it being a a proper book as it were, is kind of exciting too. So I'm very pleased that it will be coming out this year.
Derek:So I'm excited for you, to get a physical copy of your book.
Angela:Me too.
Derek:I think that's, that's very exciting. And so when does it come out?
Angela:August is the, yes. It will be August.
Derek:Oh, that's very exciting. And we'll make sure that we have, in our show notes the information people, need to be able to track it down. Yeah. So that's very exciting.
Angela:Fantastic.
Derek:As you start telling the story of your actual experience, of course, that resonates because I read the book, and the book sounds very much like that. Mhmm. And one of the things that we'll just get this out of the way right away, one of the things in the book is that there's this, is it is it first person? I can't remember. It's first person, and it's it's from the point of view of, a woman who's a journalist.
Angela:Yes. Yes.
Derek:And that's you?
Angela:It's not me. It's not me. The the the exciting thing about being able to use the novel form, especially as I said, I come from a literature background. So I have a PhD in literature and science, because I come from an arts background. And growing up in The UK, we were taught that there are two very separate worlds.
Angela:One is arts and one is science, and never the twain shall meet, and that's how we're educated. And so at a young age, you have to decide which path you're gonna go down. And so my path was the arts. But as it so happened, I, when I started wanting to do further degrees and I did a master's and then a PhD at London University, and I happened to, at that time, know a lot of physicists because, I had met Domenico, who was finishing his research work, at the University of Salerno in Italy as a physicist experimental physicist, specializing in nonlinear dynamics. And so I was in conversations with a lot of these guys who I would never have mixed with, in London.
Angela:And I've to my amazement, they were, scientists, but they all knew about literature and cinema and art and, you know, in Italy, they were educated that way. So I discovered that what I realized is that these barriers between art and science are artificial. And, so that led me to actually do my research work, for my PhD on the, influence of scientific ideas on artistic work, in particular, the playwright Samuel Beckett. And that notion that there are barriers that don't need to be there, is something which has been with me for a long time. And I couldn't have imagined that when I was doing that work that, this would actually lead into, the kind of professional work that we do at intelligent management because our whole, point is that we don't need to have artificial barriers inside organizations.
Angela:We, we are still trapped into thinking that there are separations that need to be there when they really don't. So it's, so it was it was that kind of background, that led into wanting to write a book, in particular, about business, which, as which for me was I never imagined when I was in the arts, I also was in theater, that I would end up, working so so deeply in the business world, and working with, C suite teams to to help them to see a whole new perspective on the way that business can be conducted and the way organizations can can be created and managed. So it was, it's been quite a journey from, from literature to to where we are today.
Derek:There's there's so much there, Angela. I'm just gonna pause for a second. And, one of the things that, I think really connects the way I think with, you and Domenico, is that is that connection and that desire to break down barriers. And so Mhmm. Essential dynamics is a way I started to sort of document the way I think.
Derek:And it's based on the I it it it was part of the problem I was trying to solve was, why do people get surprised when things are hard? And working in organizations, you know, people would say, well, we can't do that because it's hard. And I'm trying to understand that, and so I said, well, what if we thought of things differently? And what if we imagined that we were on an epic quest?
Angela:Mhmm.
Derek:And if we're on a quest, then of course it's hard because otherwise there's no story. And and so from the idea of a quest, I got three elements that there needs to be this high purpose. There's a group of perhaps unlikely people who are maybe even called to adventure rather than, you know, seeking it, and they have to go on a journey. And from that, I get, purpose, people, and a
Angela:path. Mhmm.
Derek:And all of the work that I've done has been kind of based on that. And so to have, someone who comes from literature, steps into the business world, and then tries to help people in the business world understand things, which is really what literature is all about. I mean, I I I it very much resonates with me. Then the the other thing that I would just, wanna pick up on is, in the last few episodes of the podcast, we've been talking about business traditions that need to stop. Mhmm.
Derek:And, we've dealt with two so far. And one of them is breaking organizations up into pieces, which we call silos. And the other is related, and that's, focusing on individual performance and incentivizing individual performance. And I know you take both, both of those on in the book, and I can't deny that, your work has influenced me. So maybe tell tell us a little bit about what you're try what you're trying to do with the book in terms of helping people think differently about business.
Angela:Well, first of all, I have to state that, the inspiration for this book came from the business novels of, doctor Elia Howe Goldratt who developed the theory of constraints, which some people may be familiar with and some people not. He wrote a book called The Goal, in the nineteen eighties. It was a huge success. It's still a bestseller. It sold millions of copies and been translated into dozens of languages.
Derek:Absolutely.
Angela:And he chose to use this narrative form, to communicate his theory of constraints and how it could be so effective, in the particular context of the book the book The Goal. So it's not that I just wanted to write a book, I about business. I wrote this book as a novel inspired by, doctor Goldratt's example, but also I have to stress that what I present in the book and what all of the work of intelligent management is based on is scientific theory. So it's not just that I'm somebody from the arts, and I and I wanna say something nice or interesting about business. Everything that we, that we say and everything that we communicate to, to businesses and all the methodology and knowledge that we transfer to them is based on scientific principles most precisely connected with the science of variation and then the theory of constraints.
Angela:So understanding, the importance of constraint and how to manage it in an organization. So let me just clarify that that, I, you know, I have the great good fortune to, to have colleagues who are both of my partners are physicists, Domenico and, doctor Giovanni Cepa in Toronto. So we have come to the theory of constraints, from a highly scientific background. Goldratt was a was a physicist, and so, I think it gave our team a really unprecedented ability to understand what the theory of constraints is about and to expand it, in such a way that we were able to implement every single aspect of of TOC as it's known, in in our implementation. So, I feel very lucky to have had travel companions of that caliber.
Derek:Well, absolutely. And, you have taken the opportunity, just like doctor Goldratt did, to try and use story to explain these principles. And I would have to say that after having studied this material for more than twenty five years, I'm still frustrated as you you are, that how hard it is to change the way business operates.
Angela:It is. It's very complicated, and it's because of the entrenched mon metal mental models and mindset that, that exist in the business world and the entrenched, practices. And so it's very hard for people to challenge those and to see that there's a better way. That's what we spend all our energy on is, getting the information out there to people that there is a better way. We cannot continue to live in a world where we are continuously undermined by the inability to think systemically, And that's we're seeing this so so evidently every in every possible aspect of life, and, the pandemic has made it even clearer to us.
Angela:I think the most the latest and most shocking ones, is the is the example of Boeing. Boeing is a company that we feel personally attached to in the sense that, when we had a newsletter back in the nineteen nineties, we were early adopters of a website and electronic newsletter. Boeing contacted us to ask if they could circulate our newsletter internally because at the time, they, they had an interest in, not just the theory of current constraints, but also, doctor Deming's work, which is where we started. Our whole work is founded on the philosophy of doctor Deming, doctor W. Edwards Deming, and the idea of quality as a majestic overarching engine of how any organization needs to operate.
Angela:So to see the problems that Boeing is having, and it it affects us all. I mean, personally, I come from a family that was connected with aviation because my father's job was to go to factories where they built aircraft, and do, costing for them on behalf of the government. And my eldest brother was, was a pilot, an air Royal Air Force pilot, and my oldest sister was an air hostess. So I grew up in a house where airplanes were were everything and where we would go to air shows as kids and see these beautiful planes and what they could do. And so to see Boeing that invented the airplane almost, you know, having problems of pieces falling off.
Angela:And for those of us who have to travel frequently as we do for our work, you know, there is there is that as well.
Derek:Comes to mind from time to time.
Angela:Yes. Yeah. It's a real tragedy, and thank God there hasn't been a tragedy yet connected with this, but it is so clearly connected with that company's inability to understand how it should be organized, who should be making decisions, and that we cannot have and not nothing personal. Derek, I know you're a CPA, but we can't have accountants doing jobs that they shouldn't be doing because accountants have their role. But we we need people who are in decision making comp positions in companies to have the competence, to carry out their role and not to be thinking purely in terms of cost.
Derek:So if, if we were to go back to our recent theme of business traditions that need to stop Mhmm. You are, your major premise is that we have to stop thinking about the components of a system, and we have to start thinking about the system as a whole.
Angela:It's all based on the fallacy of the idea that if we split things up into pieces, we can control them better. That is the completely flawed thinking, behind the way the majority of companies are still organized today, and that's a it's a very sad thing that, that we still haven't overcome that. I am optimistic because I'm beginning to see more and more signs and signals that there is awareness of the need for a systemic approach, in many different facets of of our lives. But we really need to start, if we wanna make a difference, with how organizations are, designed and how they are managed. Because any attempt any attempt to improve what goes on in a company, whether it's internal relationships, whether it's satisfaction, whether it's whatever is the people realize it's not working.
Angela:If you do not go to the root and see that it's how the work is organized that is the problem, then you're never gonna be able to solve these problems. You will just be putting a Band Aid, on a wound, and, things will get worse.
Derek:Angela, I I % agree with you. And one of the ways I kinda gauge this is when I talk to people about the organizations, and I say, tell me about your organization. They start talking about the divisions or departments by which they're organized. And the first document they give me is an organization chart, which my partners and I call the silo chart.
Angela:Mhmm.
Derek:So now we know some of where it's just the dysfunction when we get the first document, which is the organization chart. Right. You didn't say organize the departments, you said organize the work. Mhmm. What what does it mean to organize the work?
Angela:Good question there. Exactly. It's only if you have the big picture of the organization, and you see, as doctor Deming had so beautifully illustrated as far back as the nineteen fifties, that any organization is in fact a system, meaning that it's a network of interdependent components that work together to achieve a goal. Department is not in that sentence because we don't need departments, we need processes that slow or projects that slow because we have inputs, then we have to process these inputs, and then we have an output towards a customer, And then we need a feedback cycle from the customer that comes back into the company so that we can continuously improve, the flow of, what we are delivering to the customer, which is the reason why we exist as a company in the first place.
Derek:So we're gonna have another conversation here pretty quick. But let's, and and talk a little bit more about how we can do the kinds of things you're talking about. But let's are are there some examples in your book of the of the failure to use the systems approach?
Angela:The whole reason for the book is that, the the people who the protagonists are a team who, are people who come from the experience of a company, that try to implement a different approach with great success. But then at a certain point, the CEO just stopped it and said, no, we're not gonna do this anymore, did a complete u-turn, and went back to the previous command and control way of of managing the company. So this team of people, who had seen the light as it were, they couldn't stay in that company anymore. So they left, and they decide to create this, this project of, raising money and buying a company, managing the company systemically, and introducing this kind of management method. And it's, that is what sparks the story.
Angela:That is why these people, go for this project in the first place and go through a very successful, acquisition, and then the managing of this, this this company in a new way. But the reaction of the CEO in the previous in their previous life, as it were, is something which can happen because what had happened to that person is that they had been taken so far out of their comfort zone, so far out of their way of conceiving reality, that even though they were getting fantastic results, and even though there was you know, they had turned the situation around completely, at a certain point, that person, as the CEO, as the leader, did not see himself in the picture anymore because other people had been so empowered to do their work and so empowered to, to manage the company in a new way and get these results, that for the traditional mindset of that CEO, this wasn't something that he could cope with anymore.
Derek:Well, that sounds like a good place to stop, a bit of a cliffhanger in terms of, picking up the book. And, so let's let's get together, for our next episode and talk about how we overcome that, very human constraint, which I think, you just described.
Angela:Exactly.
Derek:So, Angela Montgomery is from Intelligent Management. And, if I get this right, your website is intelligentmanagement.ws. Is that right?
Angela:Correct.
Derek:Awesome. And we'll put in the show notes a little more information about the book. I'm Derek Hudson. Brynn Griffiths has been helping us with the recording. And until next time, consider your quest.