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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
What’s happening with extending SkyTrain to UBC? – Final transcript
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni you are listening to From Here Forward, an award-winning UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:07] Jeevan Sangha: And I'm Jeevan.
[00:00:08] Carol Eugene Park: My dear friend, Jeevan, please remind me 'cause I have forgotten. Were you a commuter student while you were at UBC?
[00:00:14] Jeevan Sangha: Yes, I, in fact was a commuter student. I made the trek from Surrey to Vancouver for most of my undergrad experience at UBC. I actually drove because the transit route was just not super accessible. It was going to be like a 30-minute drive to the sky train, then the sky train wasn't going to make it all the way to the campus, so it was another additional bus ride. And I honestly just, I couldn't stomach it. It's for the brave of heart; I'll tell you that right now.
[00:00:38] Carol Eugene Park: So, I imagine the many minutes, hours sitting in traffic, you're thinking about life. Did you ever wonder, possibly, could we ever have transit that was more accessible to UBC?
[00:00:51] Jeevan Sangha: You know, I had on a bad day, maybe like two, three hours on the road altogether, so there was a lot of time to think about what a SkyTrain extension could look like. So yes, the longer answer to your question, yes, I did think about it. I still think about it actually every now and then.
[00:01:06] Carol Eugene Park: Well, you're in luck because this month's episode we're talking about the highly anticipated Millennium Line SkyTrain extension to UBC.
[00:01:14] Jeevan Sangha: Yep. Carol and I sat down with an old friend of the pod, Michael White, Associate Vice President at Campus and Community Planning at UBC. We actually interviewed him last year about UBC's Campus Vision 2050.
[00:01:26] Carol Eugene Park: You know, over the years, we've all heard about this extension project and today's conversation with Michael covered exactly where that project is at and where it's headed.
[00:01:35] Jeevan Sangha: So, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.
[00:01:39] Carol Eugene Park: Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, Michael, you have been on the show before, but if you could just give us a recap of who you are and what you do.
[00:01:45] Michael White: I'm just trying to recall when I was on the show probably speaking about SkyTrain. So, Michael White. I'm the Associate Vice President for Campus and Community Planning for UBC and have been here about 12 years.
[00:01:57] Jeevan Sangha: Lovely. And I guess you mentioned SkyTrain, so, might as well just jump right in.
[00:02:02] Michael White: Sure.
[00:02:02] Jeevan Sangha: Can you tell us a bit about the UBCx SkyTrain extension project to UBC?
[00:02:07] Michael White: So UBCx is the planned extension of the millennium line past Arbutus to UBC. So, next year, the first phase of that extension will open at Arbutus. And what we're focusing on now is the extension of about seven kilometers to the campus
[00:02:25] Carol Eugene Park: and currently, for people who are super excited, what is the status of the project at the moment?
[00:02:30] Michael White: So maybe I'll start with next year when the first phase opens at Arbutus, the station at Arbutus will be over at capacity on day one. So, the majority of people will be traveling on to UBC, and they'll be needing to transfer to buses at Arbutus, and the bus corridor from Arbutus to UBC is at capacity.
[00:02:51] So trying to add more buses, it is difficult and the pass ups will be significant at Arbutus. And so, for a number of years, we've been working with partners on how to extend the train from Arbutus to UBC and why stop short? This is the major destination at the end of the line.
[00:03:06] Jeevan Sangha: And so, I imagine executing projects like these are very complex and they require a lot of engaging with folks from a variety of backgrounds to ensure that it can be rolled out in a timely manner and also meeting the needs of community members. So, can you give us an idea of what that process has looked like up until now? Like what kind of preparatory work has your team been doing to kind of address some of those things that I mentioned?
[00:03:31] Michael White: So been working with a lot of partners over recent years to have a commitment to that extension to UBC. Maybe before I get into that engagement process, just to recap the importance of the extension. UBC, being a post-secondary institution with about 60,000 students, almost 18,000 staff, as the daily population is around 80,000, nighttime population of 30,000. And you think of the broad economic impact that UBC has in the region and the opportunity that the extension has not only to facilitate those large numbers of people to and from UBC on a daily basis, and I might add on the first UBC station would be the busiest station in the entire SkyTrain network, with over 10,000 people per hour using the first UBC station.
[00:04:26] And so, when you think about the importance of the project, not only moving people, so it's going to have a very strong transportation business case, but the other benefits are equally significant. And we know that, for example, housing and housing affordability is one of the top issues in the region. Well, the extension through the corridor, over 50,000 units of housing will be enabled through that corridor associated with the extension. I would say that's a conservative estimate.
[00:04:53] So that's traveling through the westerly portions of Vancouver. It's traveling through the university endowment lands that has major land holdings by Musqueam who have started development in leləm̓ and will be looking for further expansion of housing through that area. And then UBC adding 20 to 25,000 people to the campus over the next 25 years or so. When you add up all those opportunities, and again, we think this is conservative, over 50,000 units of housing are enabled through that corridor.
[00:05:25] Think of the GHG emission benefits of having all those tens of thousands of cars taken off the road. And you think about the partners involved and the opportunities for reconciliation with the MST, the three nations on the Jericho site, and Musqueam and their land holdings, just east of the university and the partnership we have.
[00:05:47] I think one of the biggest benefits that probably hasn't been spoken enough about are the economic benefits and the role that connecting UBC. Mike Harcourt likes to call it the "Brain Train”, connecting research institutions along the corridor, health destinations, innovation hubs, industry partnerships, various employment center. when you think about traveling all the way from Port Moody to UBC in that corridor, and the opportunity to open up all kinds of economic development opportunities.
[00:06:17] And finally, it's also a big job creator, and if the economy is struggling in the next few years, which it seems like it will be, having major job creation opportunities like this are going to be really important. And we know that projects of this scale would provide a number of employment opportunities, both through construction and ongoing after that.
[00:06:36] So when you look at the suite of benefits, starting with that very strong transportation argument all the way through housing and partnerships and economic development, you won't find a better a business case, I would say for an infrastructure project in North America.
[00:06:50] Carol Eugene Park: Sounds very collaborative.
[00:06:52] Michael White: I think that was a long way of setting the context for your question about process and engagement. So. I'm happy to say a few words about what we've been up to in recent years. Right now, the provincial government is leading the development of the official business case, and so, they're halfway through that process and that'll look at all the aspects of the lines, the alignment, the station locations, the costs and the benefits of the project. Also reflecting the housing opportunities and all the associated community infrastructure, all bundled together.
[00:07:22] Business case is a document which is the basis for the senior levels of government and partners making eventual capital contributions or commitments to the project. So, it's a very important step and the province is leading right now, working with all the various partners. So UBC, the local nations, the City of Vancouver, TransLink, federal government. We're all participating in that process and hopefully we can get to conclusion soon so that we can start having those conversations about actual capital commitments.
[00:07:51] Carol Eugene Park: So, because there are so many project stakeholders, I assume that conversations can get lengthy or very nuanced, you're trying to incorporate a lot of different ideas. How has that been navigating all these different desires for this project?
[00:08:07] Michael White: Just as a bit of context, there's been a, a fair bit of opinion research on the project in recent years and what we're finding is that there's overwhelming support, not just in this part of the peninsula, but throughout the region for the project.
[00:08:23] I think it goes back to a lot of those benefits I was describing earlier, and so, with a strong baseline of support for a project like this, it's a great starting point for conversations with communities and partners out at UBC. Had many conversations over the years with our communities on campus about transportation and the importance of the extension of SkyTrain.
[00:08:45] And so it's a fundamental part of what we call campus Vision 2050, which is the future vision and series of plans for the campus. And through our conversations with faculty, staff, and students and residents, Skytrain's figured very prominently. for retention and recruitment for the institution. It's obviously a big interest for all those folks commuting throughout the region on a daily basis to UBC. And it's also about the growing community we have on campus and the ability to connect and through the rest of the region from UBC.
[00:09:14] So, we know it's really important and I think there's similar conversations that have happened with the partner jurisdictions along the line over the years. And so, the work that we're doing with the partners now, particularly through the business case, is I think a really good example where there's a lot of common interest. There's very few meetings that we've attended at any level of government, or with any of the partners that there isn't really a lot of nodding heads about again, those host of benefits I talked about in completing the line to the university.
[00:09:44] And then it's a lot of navigating process and you need good process if you're going to try to address all those interests. We're going through several jurisdictions, several communities, and so there's a lot of interests that need to be addressed, and we've worked very closely with the partners even on issues like alignment and station locations because we are straddling many jurisdictions and working closely with how best to do that. And also working together to help push and advocate for the line with government.
[00:10:12] So we work very closely with the various local partners and doing that, and of course with TransLink. TransLink's a key central part of this whole conversation. And so, understanding TransLink's needs and TransLink has many regional priorities, so how do you advance a very important project like this, but also all the other important needs in the region? We think it doesn't need to be a zero-sum game. We think all boats can rise when it comes to broad transportation investments in the region, and we should be bundling up these opportunities.
[00:10:42] And TransLink has obviously some, operating budget issues, so we're very supportive of trying to make sure that TransLink is able to sustain its funding models. We're very supportive of those conversations that are happening, and we need to make sure that this line, if TransLink obviously is going to be the operator, that it works for, TransLink and make sure that it works seamlessly with the rest of the system and all the operations and maintenance issues need to be addressed. Not only the geographic jurisdictions along the line and the communities who live along the line or work along the line, but also, uh, TransLink’s a very important part of that conversation.
[00:11:12] Jeevan Sangha: And I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier when you were speaking about the impact of the project. You touched on the economic growth within the region, and I was wondering if you could expand on that, on how this project can support economic growth and how that relates to the university's position as a hub of innovation moving forward.
[00:11:31] Michael White: It's a really important point, and you can start by just thinking the role the university plays in the economy of the province. UBC discoveries have generated almost 12 billion in sales and form the basis of about 260 spinoff companies. So, you start to think of that impact that the institution has, and that's not what people think about. Oh, it's a line connecting to a university just to serve students.
[00:11:55] Well, it's doing that, but it's doing a lot more than that. When you think of the economic impact that the than the relationship UBC has in the province. We have thousands of industry partners across our various campuses, and you think of the number of grads that UBC generates every year, research connections to innovation hubs and industry partners. There's a lot of government priorities, I think about the health sciences and biosciences as a couple examples. And the relationship that UBC as a major research institution has with so either the spinoff companies or other companies throughout the region and the province, enormously important relationships.
[00:12:33] Carol Eugene Park: So, you mentioned that for the most part, at least foundationally, there's common ground, people are excited about this project., But for people who might have criticisms or concerns about this project, how do you go about responding to those kind of negative opinions?
[00:12:51] Michael White: I think there's always a diversity, especially as an urban planner, very accustomed to being involved in conversations that have a diversity of opinions and that's appropriate. I always like to approach it, and the team always likes to approach it in an interest-based way. So, what are the needs and concern that are driving people's comments or, behaviors. And if we start to understand that there's often ways to address needs and concerns that don't have to be a zero-sum game.
[00:13:16] And so when you think about, other transportation needs in the region, I think there's some and answers here that don't have to be, or, and there's some sequencing that can happen. But having this extension materialize while there's studies, for example, that need to take place in a lot of planning for eventual connections to the North Shore, why can't these happen at the same time?
[00:13:36] You know, Burnaby and SFU have the gondola as a priority. We know that there's a lot of buses needed and increased bus services needed, needed throughout the region. We think that strategically a lot of these ideas can be bundled. This is, reflected in the mayor's council ten-year plan to some degree, and have conversations with senior government, to say, these are important bundles of investments that are going to drive not only regional priorities, but as we're seeing now, a lot of priorities, for example, with the federal government. Everything I spoke about with regard to transportation, environment, housing, economic development and job creation, these are the things that we're hearing are, are very important to the federal government at the moment.
[00:14:17] And so there's a real opportunity to look at, those needs and concerns that I've talked about at the regional level and bundle those up and go together to Ottawa to try to fulfill that.
[00:14:28] Jeevan Sangha: I had a kind of broader question. you mentioned your experience as an urban planner and how folks respond to the work. And I'm curious, you said you mentioned 12 years at campus and community planning now. Is that correct?
[00:14:39] Michael White: Yes.
[00:14:39] Jeevan Sangha: how have you found the approach of campus and community planning and the culture there, and how has that compared to maybe some other experiences you've had in the field? Like, what feels unique about the work that you're doing right now?
[00:14:50] Michael White: Oh, thanks for the question. that's a fun one because I've had, varied experience. started my career with the city of Vancouver, worked there for, a decade as a planner. I worked overseas in the Middle East for a number of years in the Emirate of Abu Dhabi, and then, A little bit of consulting and then now working at UBC for 12 years.
[00:15:06] And some of them are under very different governance arrangements. Vancouver is different from obviously the Middle East, different from UBC, there are some very common elements, which are I think, the need to get out and understand people's needs and interests. And if you do that really well, it, ultimately creates much more efficient processes and decisions, because you can do things, I think, less expensively and faster if you get it right from the start by understanding people's needs and interests.
[00:15:32] So, through all those experiences investing, at the front end of these processes to understand and have those conversations with stakeholders and communities, and in this case, great partnerships with the local nations, that really helps pave the way I think, for successful outcomes. And at UBC, we're very, proud. we don't have a mayor and council. It is a different governance arrangement, so we put a lot of emphasis on engagement. And we do a lot of that at the front end of our processes, so that we really can have a strong baseline of needs and interests and support as, as we go forward with big decisions.
[00:16:07] And when we went through Campus Vision 2050, it obviously is a typical community planning conversation with a lot of different perspectives, and some of them were tough. We knew that affordability and, and housing was one of the top priorities. We know that GHG reductions in climate are important. We know that working closely with the host Nation Musqueam here in Point Grey and other partners in the region is important. We had to have all of that, those tough conversations up front in order to come up with a plan that we think, really does an address a lot of those priorities and in a way that doesn't, again, have to be zero sum or mutually exclusive
[00:16:39] Carol Eugene Park: Tapping into the personal side of who you are. You have two children who I think are teenagers.
[00:16:47] Michael White: That's correct.
[00:16:47] Carol Eugene Park: Okay. So, I mean, some kids don't care about what their parents do job wise, but I imagine your kids might be interested in the fact that you're doing this with a cool project. Like how, what's that been like, have you heard any excitement from them or they're like, whatever Dad.
[00:17:01] Michael White: that's a great question. Uh, yes. It's provoked not only this project, but others I've worked on have provoked a lot of questions and piqued a lot of interest about how cities get planned and developed and why things are so difficult sometimes.
[00:17:16] And even recently my son who's 16 will be applying for university this coming, winter. And they started asking some pretty cool questions about what's it like being a, a planner, what's it like to be an architect or an engineer, and the fascination of how cities work. So, as we've traveled as a family a lot of questions come up and I'll sometimes prompt them because of my background and when, when we see something in another city. And so, you see how that works and it's different than it is in Vancouver. It's starting to get them thinking in, I think, a broader way, which is a lot of fun.
[00:17:46] Also just finished co-editing, a book with Larry Beasley about the time that he and I, as well as many other Canadians were planning the Emirate of Abu Dhabi. And so that book's just coming out, this month. And so, I have a copy on the table and the kids they're fascinated. They're like, what is this? I said, I was over in the Middle East, but it's a summary of the kind of work that I do. And so, it, definitely piqued their interest. I mean my wife and I are encouraging them to, to think about all these options as they start to contemplate their post-secondary career.
[00:18:14] Jeevan Sangha: And one more question about the role of an urban planner, 'cause I'm so curious. I took one urban planning course in undergrad, and it seemed very difficult and I was like, I don't know if this is for me. it seems like a lot to manage. Is there a certain part of the role that maybe would be unlike something that someone doesn't immediately think of that an urban planner does that you really particularly enjoy or like nerd out on?
[00:18:37] Michael White: Well, I think a lot of folks believe that urban planners are in a room developing on a computer or on a whiteboard, a plan and spending a lot of time, you know, dreaming, actually documenting and creating these plans. And that happens of course, but three quarters of the time is, speaking with people especially in my role. a lot of meetings and a lot of conversations, a lot of presentations, a lot of workshops.
[00:19:03] And so, I think what surprises, most people is, you talk a lot and you have to listen a lot. Versus, and this was probably different, uh, 60, 70 years ago, being the expert in the back room, that coming up with a plan, and then presenting it and saying, this is the plan for this, for this community; doesn't work that way. And especially in this last few generations, it's very much, uh, engagement driven. And again, that's important so that you can get the plans right, 'cause it'll save time and money if you do. So, there's a real efficiency argument, let alone, uh, more ethical argument. But it, it makes for better plans and that's why we spend so much time with stakeholders, experts and in in the communities.
[00:19:40] Carol Eugene Park: This is going to come off ironic 'cause I'm talking a lot, but I find talking to be very tiring at times after a long day of meetings and a lot of that. How do you decompress from 12 hour days and you're talking and your voice hurts and you're like; I just want to be left alone. What do you do?
[00:19:59] Michael White: One is just trying to stay healthy and active. So, I love running and playing ice hockey, cycling to some degree, skiing in the winter, like there's just a lot of activities that I do on my own or with the family.
[00:20:11] another part is, just contemplative, kind of quiet, activities. So, taking the dog for a walk with a family or my wife on the weekends or those kinds of things that are just calming and quieting. really important. And then I think the third is just a lot of fun social and family, connections. So, it's not talking about work, it's going to watch a silly movie or watch a silly show with the family or friends and just being human about it all. 'Cause yeah, those, some of those 12 hour days can be pretty serious and intense. So, you need the counterbalance have fun and recharge.
[00:20:44] Jeevan Sangha: Lovely. I think those are good notes for all of us who are trying to balance it all between work and personal life. That was our last question for you, but quickly before we wrap, just wanted to leave some space here. Is there anything that you wanted to chat about that we didn't touch on or that we didn't ask about as it relates to the work? Uh, whether that's. UBCx or campus and community planning in general?
[00:21:04] Michael White: Yeah, there is. And that's if this is important to listeners or to participants to make, uh, your voice heard. Many of the alumni of the institution have broad networks have a lot of friends and family and coworkers they have a lot of influence. Get out there and ask questions about this project. Start promoting people that, that, that you know, the importance of it.
[00:21:26] At the end of the day, all the hard work that we've been doing with partners and all the technical things I've been describing, at the end of the day, these are political decisions to, to move big projects forward. And so, the more people are talking about it, the more people are that are asking questions, and the, the more that people are, are promoting projects, it's key.
[00:21:42] So, if this does pique people's interests, then please talk about it. Uh, there's a lot of information on our website, obviously. I'm happy to come out and speak to also smaller groups, companies, individuals, associations, happy to come out to speak to any of them anytime about the project. So that's also an invitation for folks.
[00:22:00] Jeevan Sangha: Great. this has been super informative and really lovely chatting with you. Thank you so much for your time.
[00:22:05] Carol Eugene Park: Look, I know for people who aren't part of this project, the perceived timeline of a significant project like this can feel really long. Like I know I've been impatient with infrastructure projects in the past, complaining all the time, but as Michael said, UBCx is still underway. Phase one, from VCC Clark to Arbutus, is scheduled to open next year, 2027. That's really not that long, just it's really not that far off. And as my dad used to say, good things come to those who wait.
[00:22:36] Jeevan Sangha: Sage wisdom, as always, as a former commuter student, an extension like this would've been such a game changer for my day-to-day life attending classes at UBC. And like we said before, your voice matters, infrastructure projects like this impact all of us. And so, please exercise your civic duty, contact your MLAs and local representatives and share any and all thoughts about how you'd like this project to come about.
[00:22:57] Carol Eugene Park: And I do want to say, if you wouldn't say it on the radio, don't say it on social media. Keep your thoughts positive and your criticisms constructive.
[00:23:07] Thanks, everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Blue Sky at Carol Eugene Park,
[00:23:19] Jeevan Sangha: And me on Twitter at Jeevan K Sangha. From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast, produced by Kylé McPhedran for Podium Podcast Company.