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Alternative Wealth is a podcast focused on advanced tax planning & wealth preservation for business owners, entrepreneurs, and high income earners hosted by Ryan Kolden. Weekly guest interviews, plus shorter deep-dive episodes about business planning, tax mitigation strategies, alternative investments, personal finance, and retirement strategies. Covering everything from private equity, venture capital, hedge funds, private credit, & real estate to tax-efficient exits & captive insurance corporations, privatized banking, and different retirement strategies.
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Kevin Amolsch:
Because you know it's becoming very popular right now. You have big companies, big hedge funds like Blackstone, for example, publicly announcing that they're going to put private credit funds together because they know the power of it right now. And the reason it's becoming more popular now, Ryan, is because of the risk-adjusted returns.
Ryan Kolden: Welcome to Alternative Wealth, where we explore traditional and alternative investing, retirement, and personal finance concepts. I'm your host, Ryan Colden. Join us as we talk about the strategies and tactics that can help you make better financial decisions.
Disclaimer & Disclosure: Ryan Colden is an investment advisor representative of RPG Family Wealth Advisory. Colden Wealth is a DBA of RPG Family Wealth Advisory. The opinions expressed by the host and or guests in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Colden Wealth or RPG Family Wealth Advisory. No information on this podcast should be construed as investment, legal, tax, or financial advice.
Ryan Kolden: All right, welcome to today's show. Today we're gonna be having on Kevin Amolsch. Kevin is a real estate investor and private money lender. He earned his degree in finance after serving four years in the army. After college, Kevin worked as a mortgage bond, he worked as a mortgage bond analysis before leaving to work with real estate financing for investors full-time. He and his companies have closed on over 2200 transactions as a buyer, seller, or a private money lender. He currently manages multiple mortgage funds with more than $750 million in closed loans. He spent two decades as a real estate investor and 16 years in real estate lending. He is the author of 45 Day Investor. Kevin, welcome to the show and great to have you on.
Kevin Amolsch: Ryan, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have a conversation with you. Hopefully we can bring some value to the listeners and to yourself.
Ryan Kolden: Absolutely. So I want to hop right into it from a high level view. What role does private lending or private credit play in an investor's portfolio? Why should someone think about it? Why should they consider it? What's your take on that?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, that's a good question and one that we could probably talk about for some time because you know it's becoming very popular right now. You have big companies, big hedge funds like Blackstone, for example, publicly announcing that they're gonna put private credit funds together because they know the power of it right now. And the reason it's becoming more popular now, Ryan, is because of the risk-adjusted returns. If you think about a capital stack in a real estate transaction, I mean, there's a lot of different ways you could do it, but a basic stack would look something like this. You have a bank loan for 60 or 70 percent. You might have some MES debt, which would be like junior debt position. You might have that for another 10 percent or something. And then you could stack in some equity. So either the owner or sponsors equity or they might go and put a syndication together to raise the equity. There's preferred equity and standard equity. That's all on the back end, right? But if you heard how I described that, the bank that's at the 60 or 70% of the value, that's the first one in the capital stack. But it doesn't always have to be a bank. In fact, a lot of times it's not, especially right now because of the tightening credit environment. So we're seeing private lenders like Pine Financial or now Blackstone, In the market to fill that gap and now they're they're the ones that are making the loan and they're in the first position It's a little higher interest rate than you would get with it like a bank type of financing Which is great for the investors and it's to answer your question exactly why they would want to be there High interest rates and a senior lean position makes it for a great risk adjusted return now
Ryan Kolden: You said something that's key there that I want to hammer home. What is significant about the first lien position or the senior position when it comes to investing and lending with assets?
Kevin Amolsch: I'm so glad you asked that, and I should have done a better job of explaining that. So thank you for bringing me back there. So when I'm talking about the capital stack and I was just going, you know, the first debt position, then a junior position and then your equity, those are the priority positions and priority as in who gets paid first. So when the asset sells, when the asset is refinanced and there's money to distribute, the first lean position gets made whole first, 100 percent whole first. And then it goes to the next one in the stack and then it just – and so if you have a problem and there's going to be a loss or you get less proceeds than you were expecting, You want to be early on in that stack so that you get made whole. You made whole. That's why it's important to be in that first lean position. And Pine Financial, that's all we do. We don't do junior positions at all. We want to be first lean and usually first and only lean.
Ryan Kolden: Yep, and to just to compare and contrast going back to you said good risk adjusted returns That's that risk portion mitigating risk is by taking that first position the senior debt position I made whole first versus being like at the top of the cap stack as an equity investor where I Mean, I don't you can't speak all the time, but most of time it isn't going to get paid out in a bankruptcy type situation
Kevin Amolsch: Almost always it wouldn't if it's an insolvent situation those equity partners It would be rare to see them get their money back Absolutely.
Ryan Kolden: Now, there's a whole world of private credit, but specifically what you do Kevin is you're on The lending side of real estate transactions. Can you briefly explain? What private lending is in the context of real estate? What different types of lending can you do with with real estate and and? And just high-level view, what do you do and how does lending work with real estate?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, so the simple answer to that question, which is not a simple question, obviously, but the simple answer is private lending is non-bank financing. So anytime you have non-bank or non-institutional credit, that's going to be private. So when I was getting started in this business, I was young. I bought my second house, I was 23 years old. And I just fell in love with real estate. So I started buying a house or two a month. You know, I learned, I practiced, I got better. And I started buying one or two a month while I was in college. I didn't have cash or credit, so I couldn't go to a bank, right? I had to figure out private money. And for me, it was meeting with sellers that had to sell the property, so highly motivated, and I'd be in their living room trying to negotiate a deal where I could solve their problem one and make a profit two. So a lot of times I would have the seller carry the loan for me or do a lease with an option or take over their mortgage payments for them. All of that, all the creative owner financing strategies is also private lending. It's also private money. That's not what Pine Financial does and not what we're talking about here today, I don't think. But to answer your question, what does Pine Financial do? Well, we just bring in capital from individual investors like yourself and we pool it together. In most cases, we pool it together and then that's a mortgage fund. And then we use that money to make loans to real estate investors to reposition real estate. So think about your fix and flips, your repurposing, your stabilizing, anything like that that's adding value. Those are the deals we're in.
Ryan Kolden: Okay. And let's say someone realized that, Hey, real estate is an important part of my overall investment strategy. And they want to get exposure to it somehow, whether that be on the equity side or the lending side or vice versa, what would be like the main conversation you would have with that person of saying, am I suited for Real estate true real estate investment like like getting equity or am I better suited for? Lending what you know, what are the kind of the pros and cons of each?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, right. Let's pull this back just a bit further So when you're when you decide that you want to add real estate to your portfolio, which is a great idea, by the way. I You first need to decide, do I want to be an active investor or a passive investor? So it's really two paths you can go down. Now, for me, I go down both and we could talk more about that if you like. But let's say it's an initial investment. You should decide active or passive. OK. Let's say I want to go passive because I don't like tenants, toilets and tantrums, right? So I don't want to manage it. I want to just invest my money and just collect the check every month. Well, then you can go equity or debt on the passive side. So the equity. It would be like your syndications, as I mentioned earlier. People pool money together to make down payments on properties. So those are great. Limited partnerships, syndications, those are both the same term used interchangeably. They're great. And you can have high returns. So it's not unusual to see 20, 25 percent, maybe even a little higher return annualized on those types of deals. But now remember, now you're equity. So you participate in the upside. That's fantastic. But what do you also participate in? you
Ryan Kolden: Oh, that downside.
Kevin Amolsch: The downside. And we've seen that recently. I'm in five equity syndications right now, and two of the five had a capital call. So for the listener that doesn't understand, the capital call is when they actually call you and say, you need to put more money into your investment. So they're bringing capital into the investment. So I'm investing in it to get a return on my money, right? Not to give in more money. But two out of five, those aren't good odds, required a capital call. Two of the other ones just stopped distributions completely and one of them is going really well. Now it's not the sponsors, it's not the manager's mismanagement of the property. What happened was a run-up of interest rates like we've never seen before in history, right? So that creates a lot of pressure on those types of deals. But you know who's not putting money into the deal? You know who's not risking losing money and not absorbing any of the depreciation of those assets? It's the lender. So the other side, if you want to go passive, is the debt side. And that's what we're talking about here. You're a lender in the project, typically for a fixed rate of return. You don't participate in the upside or the downside. So you give up on the potential huge 20, 25% returns just so that you know that there's going to be consistency and security and safety. Gotcha.
Ryan Kolden: And going back to private Wending what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see with people who you know?
Kevin Amolsch: Maybe try to get into this for the first time or do it themselves Yeah, there's a lot of these and this is sad to say but I get calls Regularly, I don't take as many of them anymore because I have a team but I could tell you that our office gets maybe two or three of these calls a month and I am not exaggerating there and of people like that are in a deal that they got themselves into trouble and they call us asking for advice on how to get out of it. Well, sometimes you can't get out of it. So you want to be very careful going into a transaction that you know what you're doing. So the biggest mistake I see, number one, hands down, largest mistake private lenders make when lending against real estate is, well, gosh, I just lost a train of thought here, Ryan. The biggest mistake is gap funding. That's what it is. So if you go into a junior position, not the senior position. And the reason for that is, sure, it's going to be a smaller investment amount. So a lot more people can be exposed to it. So that is a benefit. And you can charge a higher interest rate because you're lower in the capital stack, like we talked about. The problem is if there's a foreclosure, if there's a senior lien holder that doesn't get payments, that decides to accelerate, which means call the loan due and foreclose on that property. We already talked about it. They're going to get paid back first. So is there enough equity after the whole foreclosure process to pay off any junior lien holders? And a lot of times there's not. And the reason for that is one, didn't get a low enough combined loan-to-value ratio, so your loan-to-value low. And two, a lot of investors don't understand the sheer amount of cost it's going to be to wait for the foreclosure process. So in my notes, we have a default interest rate of 18%, and quite honestly, that's low for the industry. So let's call it 20% default rate. So if you write default on a loan, now it's going to be accruing interest at 20% per year every single month until we get through that foreclosure process. So let's say it's a nine month or a year process. That's just accruing 20% plus attorney's fees plus late fees. So you can do your diligence and understand what that senior lien principal balance is and think you're in a good strong loan to value position until the foreclosure is over. And you notice that it just went up 20, 25% higher than what you underwrote it at. Now, is there enough equity to pay you off? Probably not. So the biggest the biggest mistake people make is going into a junior position and not understanding what's going to happen if that senior lean starts to foreclose. Another big one is insurance. Look insurance agents. I love insurance agents. I'm not trying to offend anyone here But a lot of them don't understand the fix-and-flip business. So when you ask the insurance agent, okay What's a what's a good insurance for me to get they're gonna ask you are you gonna live in the property? No, I'm not gonna live in the property. I'm gonna fix and fix it up and resell it Well, they don't understand that there's higher risk with a vacant property under construction than a family living in your rental property, right? It's just a different risk level. So it's a lot of those landlord policies have what they call vacancy clauses The vacancy clause says this, if this house sits vacant for 30 days or 60 days or whatever the amount of time is, it's definitely less than 60 days, then you don't have any insurance at all. We're going to avoid the insurance because there's a lot of risk with vacant properties. So your intent is to have it vacant the entire time you own it. Of course it's going to be vacant. And so now all of a sudden you're paying a premium for a policy you can't even use, right? And then there's damage and you file a claim and you have no insurance at all. So those are two of the big ones that we see.
Ryan Kolden: One of the pieces that you brought up was talking about what happens when you kind of go through the beginning process of bankruptcy and what happens if you're incorrectly set up with these loans. Now, let's say someone does do it correctly. What happens in a bankruptcy proceeding? What happens with you as the lender?
Kevin Amolsch: Well, it depends on the type of bankruptcy. So there's really three main types. You have the 7, the 13, and then you have your 11, which is for business. And all three of them in this type of lending could come into play. So I mean, we could talk about each one, but let's say the most common are going to be the 7 and the 13. So a Chapter 7 bankruptcy is a complete wipe out of your debt. You don't owe anybody anything. If the bankruptcy courts say that that's legitimate and they approve it, then you don't have any guarantee on that loan at all. So whoever you had promising to pay you back, that guarantee is gone. What you do still have is the collateral as your recourse. So you'll always have that if you're a lien holder, regardless of the position. But let's say it's a senior lien position. likely what will happen is a bankruptcy trustee will say, OK, here's all the assets in the estate. We need to liquidate these assets so that we could pay the creditors as much as possible through this Chapter 7 process. Some exceptions might be a primary home. There's some protections around that. But in this world that we're talking about, the fix and flips or the investment property, there's really no protection. So they will be forced to sell the property and pay back the creditors. So that again is where you absolutely want to be in a senior position. The good news is, the bad news is, let me start with the bad news. The bad news is, it's going to take a while, right? You got to get through the foreclosure process and then they're going to probably take you up to the very last day when it goes to sell the foreclosure auction. They're going to file the bankruptcy. And so you have to wait out the bankruptcy court's decision and then you start your foreclosure over again. So it's going to drag the process out. That's the bad news. The good news is you're accruing. Remember, you're accruing that default interest rate, which you are entitled to as that senior lien holder. So, you're not going to get hurt probably through the process. It's just going to be a slow process. Now, if you're in a junior position, your chances are very high that you're going to lose some money on that deal. Now 13, a 13 is just a reorganization. A lot of 13s end up in seven, but a 13 is, okay, we're gonna take all the debts, all the monthly payments, the court's gonna take all that in, and they're gonna decide who gets paid what, and then they're going to actually collect the funds from, it's gonna be one payment from the borrower to the court, and then they distribute to the creditors. So you'll still be protected there, the monthly payments will continue to come in, it just might be lower, and then you'll accrue the difference. But the good news about this type of lending is they're short-term loans. Our loan is nine months long, right, on our fix-and-flip stuff. So, a nine-month loan. So, even if you're collecting payments, you could still default the loan after that nine months because it's a maturity default. And so, I can still force that into a foreclosure because I'm getting less payments. So, the court wouldn't have any control over a maturity default in that situation. So, that's a good way to help protect yourself is short-term loans.
Ryan Kolden: Gotcha. And the other piece, too, that just kind of came to my mind is the whole reason that. And I would love to get your opinion on it, but from our perspective of why real estate's important aside from it really is just the diversification benefits and the ability to change, like the standard deviation of the volatility in a portfolio and its inflation hedging properties now. The other important piece is as an individual investor, when you're doing that on a single property basis, maybe because you don't have enough capital to, you know, to employ it in like a fund type manner over multiple properties, they're just taking on a lot of risk as an individual investor versus what you do is you have a portfolio or a fund of properties that you may be doing this. And so when one, just like you said, you have about a 20% default rate and You kind of bake that into your calculations and overall it all seems to work out. Is that is that correct?
Kevin Amolsch: Assumption of saying an individual investor is going to be taken on more risk doing this themselves with one property versus a fund of properties Yes, I I couldn't have said that better the you know, it's the old Ben Franklin Howie, you know, he invented insurance I think a lot of us know that but the whole the whole idea of insurance was that everybody go into one pool and And that way, if there's a loss over here, this house burns down, that one individual person doesn't absorb that, right? Us as a group absorb that loss. It's the same exact concept in any kind of fund, mutual funds or mortgage funds. So you're diversified over lots of assets. So if one doesn't work as you expect, you still get your payments. Now, you mentioned in the intro $2,200. transactions, that's actually, that must be an old one sheet we sent you. We're actually about 2,500 now and no investor that has invested in any of our funds has ever taken a loss. And it's because of what you just brought up. It's diversified.
Ryan Kolden: Yep. And you, and you definitely probably bake it into your calculations. It's just kind of a known historic number now. Yeah. Kevin, I want to shift gears and move into the real estate investment, the equity side of things and talk about your book. Is there anything else that you want to tell people about with regards to private lending before we move on?
Kevin Amolsch: I think private lending is a great addition to a portfolio because it's steady secure and it helps you diversify. With that said, I do think real estate as an investment, like if you're the single owner of a rental property, for example, is a great way to really build wealth. You can do both, right? One thing you're giving up in private credit is the tax benefits of owning real estate. So when you own real estate, you could depreciate it and it could offset some other income, especially if you qualify for a real estate professional, they call it. I don't want to get into all the details on that, but you could really get some fantastic tax benefits from owning property. So I think you should do both. Now we're going to get into the 45-day investor. That's actually Acquisition strategy, you know to actually buy rental properties for your portfolio, but it's active. So you're gonna have to manage it.
Ryan Kolden: Yep now In terms of why so You actually just kind of answer the question, which was I was gonna ask you why should someone consider rather than lending? like why should they consider equity as part of their overall investment strategy and you mentioned a Depreciation is one of them, but are there any other benefits to real estate that someone could realize?
Kevin Amolsch: So I was 20 years old and I read this little book that you probably have heard of. Some people call it that purple Bible. It's the Robert Kiyosaki. So I read that and I was trying to, what I was exploring for or looking for was where do I invest my cash? Because I had a little tiny savings going when I was in the army, I wasn't spending any of the money. So where do I go invest this? And that book and a lot of others say real estate, real estate, real estate. So I bought that first property. I was 21. I was just getting out of the army and I moved into it. And when I moved out and I was 23 and I kept it as a rental property and I've rented it out for like 11, a little over $1,100 a month. And my payment was 750. I remember these numbers. And I didn't have a ton of expenses with that property, at least for the first year with that first tenant. So I was like making three, 350 bucks a month. And I wasn't doing really anything. And I noticed I was so like interested in this. Right. So every month I would check my mortgage statement. I would see the little bit that was going towards the principal. And I was like, OK, I'm making three hundred fifty bucks. I'm not working for it. My tenants paying off my house for me. It went up 10 percent. This was right after the dotcom boom. So tell you a little bit about my age there. So. And so all of these benefits and I was like, you know what? This is what's going to make me rich. I see it. I can see this vehicle. This is why so many people love it. This actually works. So I do love real estate as an investment and the debt side. Now, if my tenant moved out, which happens, then my income stops. Right now I got to pay money to go rehab it and get it ready and rent it out again. So I lose some cash flow with private debt. You don't have that. It's going to be very consistent, but you do give up on the appreciation of the asset and it will go up in value over time, even if it comes down temporarily, even 2008, you know, we're well above those levels. That's 15, 16 years ago, but that came down and then it went back up, right? And very few recessions actually hit real estate values, by the way. But it will go up in value. Your tenants will pay off your loan for you. You will get the tax benefits. And if you're buying right, you will get monthly cash flow.
Ryan Kolden: One of the pieces that you said, the two pieces stood out to me, first one being the idea of leverage. So a lot of people I think a lot of people inherently know it, but they just maybe don't ever consider it. But you buy a $100,000 home in cash that produces $5,000 a year, you get a 5% rate of return on your cash versus if I did that with $20,000, buy the $100,000 asset, earn a 5% rate of return, I've now increased the return on my cash in significantly, and that's kind of the power of leverage, but there's also the downsides of leverage. It kind of magnifies our returns, magnifies our losses, but I agree, real estate can be a fantastic way to build wealth. Now, in your book, 45 Day Investor, you do go over several different strategies or methods of how just an average person can acquire their first property in the next, you know, month and a half, 45 days, what are some major strategies that stand out to you for the average person to be able to do something like this?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, really, there's only two strategies and I'm gonna even narrow that down to one. I do talk about the BRRRR strategy. We were doing BRRRR strategy before it was BRRRR strategy, right? It's a very simple concept, but for the listener, if they don't understand that, we could talk about that. But really the strategy that worked really well for me, and I was chasing different options, right? But the one that landed with me was the lease option. So quickly, The lease option is I'm going to lease it from the owner. I'm going to basically promise a payment every single month, and then I'm going to rent it to somebody else, sublease it out for a higher amount. I have an option to buy, so I might write a lease option for 10 years, let's say, and I'm going to Negotiate somewhere around today's value. Usually it's a little bit less but somewhere around what it's worth today So it's not a get quick flip kind of thing. It's a very slow process But over three four or five years as the house goes up in value that purchase price stays the same, right? We lock that in So that option becomes very, very valuable over time. Now, if I have a house that I got an option price of $100,000, just to keep it really simple, and let's say over five years, it goes to $150,000, that's a $50,000 spread. That option, maybe I could flip that option, sell that option for $30,000, right? Just the paper. because somebody would pay $130,000 for a $150,000 house. Or I could actually buy the house, exercise my option, which would mean I have to go sign on a loan and do all that. But then I could exercise it for $100,000. Now I have a $150,000 house for $100,000. Now what can I do with that? Now I could sell it on terms, I could just flip it out of it, or I could just keep it as a rental. And what I love about this, Ryan, is that it's an easy concept for the seller to understand. So they're in some financial trouble or I want to be in that living room. They have this pressure, this monthly payment pressure, and a lot of things can create that. But I'm going to relieve that pressure for them by leasing them and promising payments to them. And then they're going to, in exchange, they're going to lock in a price for me. So that's the one strategy that I had a tremendous amount of success with. Easy to explain easy to understand easy to profit and low low risk because look you don't own the property, right? You have an option to buy it not an obligation So if 2008 hits and all the houses go down in value, I could just not exercise my option I'm not gonna go down go down for the ride.
Ryan Kolden: Like if I owned the property, right? Interestingly enough I actually bought my first Real estate property about the same age you did. Oh nice, and I did it I didn't I didn't do a lease option, but I did something very similar with seller financing. But the other piece in your book, you talked about bridge loans. Can you briefly, and the only reason I bring this up is because I was actually having a conversation with a client the other day, and I discussed a bridge loan, and I said it, because I know what it is, but they were like, what's a bridge loan? Can you briefly explain what a bridge loan is and why someone would either need it? I believe you do a lot of lending with bridge loans. Could you please just briefly describe what a bridge loan is and why it's important?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, and this is a good topic to bring up because it could mean different things to different people. But a bridge loan, really what a bridge loan means, it's just bridging a gap, right? It's from getting to point A to point B. So it's a means to an end. So think about your fix and flip as a perfect bridge loan. So all I'm trying to get to is a point where I could resell the property for a profit. So bridge loans are always short term. They're always short term, but it could be a fix and flip because I'm just bridging the gap from a wholesale value to a retail value. But it could be, we're not doing these right now, but I've seen a lot of land bridge loans. So look, we need to get through the city and get our city approvals before a bank would touch this land. So they might go out and get a loan just to hold the property and get through the city approvals, and then it's bankable, right? Then they can go get their bank loan. So that would be a bridge. But anytime you're typically you're adding value to a property and it's short term. So everything we do, every loan we make is considered a bridge loan.
Ryan Kolden: Okay. Now, Kevin, I think we're about going to wrap it up. I'll go into talking about where people can connect with you and I'll put your links in the description. Is there anything else that you want to, you know, mention or leave people with some closing thoughts with regards to anything that we talked about today?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, I think there's a lot of fear in the economy and it's getting especially bad with the interest rates now maybe going up, right? We were told that there's going to be three cuts and that's going to spur the market and that's going to help people. I don't agree with that, by the way, but there's a lot of concern right now. And then if rates do go up, are we going to have a housing crash? Is it going to impact housing values like we thought the first run up in rates? So I think there's a lot of concern and we need to be educated on what the economy is doing so that we can make smart financial decisions. And if you look back through history, I mentioned 2008 a couple of times today. 2008 and today don't resemble each other at all. They're very, very different. They're both scary when it comes to real estate and what it could do, but they're very different reasons. But if you go back further and you look at, you know, the savings and loan crisis, hyperinflation, and then we had interest rates beyond belief, right? 18% interest rates to try to fight that inflation. That's much more similar to what we're experiencing right now. So, That time, the savings and loans time, didn't impact real estate until 1990, if you could believe that. So it went all the way through the 80s without impacting values at all. And in 1990, the values came down. So why is that? And what can we learn from that for the future? So I did a comparison of 1990s housing recession to today and tried to bring some similarities. It's a pretty cool research project. Actually, I had a lot of fun doing that. And then I wrote a report. So if anybody wants that report, Hopefully that will help you in your investing.
Ryan Kolden: You could get that for free at the pine report comm Okay, I'll make sure to put that in the description Kevin where can people connect with you?
Kevin Amolsch: Yeah, if it's not the pine report comm the best way to reach me is email or the website the websites Pine financial group comm again pine financial group comm I do respond to my own email so you could receive you could send me an email. It's Kevin at pine financial group comm and
Ryan Kolden: Fantastic. Kevin, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. I appreciate your time. And again, if anyone wants to connect with Kevin, all of his links, contact is going to be in the description. Appreciate having you on, Kevin. And that's a wrap for today's show.
Ryan Kolden: Hey, real quick before you go, thanks for listening. And please remember to hit follow on your podcast player. You won't miss any episodes and it helps support us bring you the show. Today's show notes and resources are available to you by clicking the link in the description. The opinions and views expressed here are for informational purposes only and is not tax, legal, financial, investment, or accounting advice. This material is educational in nature and should not be deemed as solicitation of any specific product or service. All investments involve risk and a potential for a loss of principle. Should you need such advice, please consult with a licensed financial, tax, or legal professional. Neither host nor guest can be held responsible for any direct or incidental loss incurred by applying any of the information offered.