Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Mark explores the minds of visionary entrepreneurs who refuse to limit themselves to a single venture to learn how these trailblazers manage risks, innovate across industries, and turn ideas into impact.
Whether you’re scaling your first business or juggling several, this podcast is your ultimate guide to thriving as a parallel entrepreneur.
0:00situations where it's a business owner that is looking to exit, that's looking to create some liquidity for its state0:077 secondsplanning or other whatever other reasons, but wants to stay on board for a0:1515 secondstransitional period of time defined by years, not months. Welcome to the parallel entrepreneur, where we explore how founders, creators, and visionaries0:2323 secondsbring multiple ventures and parts of themselves to life. In season 2, we're keeping the conversations real and0:3030 secondswide-ranging about alignment, creativity, and the messy, beautiful art of building in parallel. It's not about0:3838 secondsdoing more. It's about letting our ideas work together. This is the parallel entrepreneur.0:4747 secondsWelcome to the parallel entrepreneur. My guest today is Douglas Song. He's the uh CEO, founder, and driving force behind0:5454 secondsProtos Capital. and we're going to enjoy an exploration about capital formation, mergers and acquisitions. Um, and his1:031 minute, 3 secondsjust vast experience in a space that not, you know, not enough entrepreneurs are fully aware of. Uh, including1:111 minute, 11 secondsmyself, Doug, I have I was needing a lot of, uh, learning and and growth and education in the area around this topic1:191 minute, 19 secondsof independent sponsor. So, um, with that, let's just I'm I'm curious. You just landed, right? So, what does a1:271 minute, 27 secondscalendar what does your calendar look like and what have you been up to?1:301 minute, 30 secondsI was um in New York City last night. Um I was a guest lecturer for um an ETA1:381 minute, 38 secondsclass. It's an MBA level class. ETA stands for entrepreneurship through acquisition. I think this became popular1:461 minute, 46 secondsat Harvard, then it caught on at Stanford and now other colleges. And basically what it's teaching, it's a1:531 minute, 53 secondsclass about how to become an entrepreneur through acquisition. So you're they're teaching you how to make an acquisition and then these2:022 minutes, 2 secondsindividuals are dropping in typically to run these businesses. So it's it's it's a very interesting program. So I went uh2:092 minutes, 9 secondslast night to talk about the independent sponsor model which is differentiated from the ETA and and the the differences2:172 minutes, 17 secondsand how we look at deals etc. So, it was a very very interesting class.2:212 minutes, 21 secondsI'm I'm excited to hear more about that because I am sort of your classic bootstrap entrepreneur and then I went2:292 minutes, 29 secondsout and raised capital and have done some capital transactions that involved investors. Ultimately, I've sold six2:372 minutes, 37 secondscompanies and started the same. And in the process, I never heard anything about an independent sponsor. And I I2:462 minutes, 46 secondsthink most of my training was you you go out, you find a problem, you solve it, you bring a customer to bear, you get financed by your customers, you grow, and you're bootstrapping in this thing.2:572 minutes, 57 secondsAnd this ETA approach is different.3:003 minutesYeah, absolutely. Uh so you could do ETA two ways. First way is you bootstrap as you said. So you're going to use your3:083 minutes, 8 secondsown money and try to find an acquisition. Typically, these are smaller companies, so you're going to finance it with SBA loans3:163 minutes, 16 secondsor you could find a sponsor, somebody to back you and do a search. So, that's commonly called a search fund, uh, I3:253 minutes, 25 secondsthink as well. And, uh, so there there are two ways to do it, but in both cases, you're dropping in as the CEO of3:323 minutes, 32 secondsthese businesses. That is very different than the independent sponsor model. Most independent sponsors are not seeking to3:403 minutes, 40 secondsdrop in as a CEO. We are sponsors much like a private equity firm. So we are here to uh uh manage the business,3:493 minutes, 49 secondsmanage the investment from a board level on down. We're not there to run the day-to-day. The ETA model is very3:563 minutes, 56 secondsdifferent because they are going to uh be the boots on the ground. How often are these experienced entrepre entrepreneurs in your experience or are4:044 minutes, 4 secondsthey um coming out of business school or coming out of a finance program or coming out of some private equity firm4:124 minutes, 12 secondsand they've seen it done a number of times and now they want to go learn how to be the CEO specifically? What what is the character of the person that's going through this learning process?4:224 minutes, 22 secondsI think the person first of all has to be highly entrepreneurial. They wanna they have to be entrepreneurial by by nature. I think that's the first definition. I I think the second thing4:314 minutes, 31 secondsis they're coming from various backgrounds. I've seen folks that have an engineering background, a consulting4:384 minutes, 38 secondsbackground. I've I've seen um people that have family businesses that they've been involved in and now4:464 minutes, 46 secondsthey want to do something like this. So it it's really and I've seen private equity professionals etc. So I've seen a4:534 minutes, 53 secondsvery diverse array of professionals that want to do this.4:574 minutes, 57 secondsSo if you were teaching that class today and parallel entrepreneurs were listening, what would be some of the pointers you would want them to come away with?5:055 minutes, 5 secondsWell, I sort of made this comment last night. I I said, you know, if you're going to run the company, the most important thing for you to understand5:125 minutes, 12 secondsand learn and have experience is being an operator.5:175 minutes, 17 secondsHow do you manage a business? And we're talking about smaller companies. So there's a lot to do. So how do you manage a business? How do you put in the systems? How do you create the5:265 minutes, 26 secondsinfrastructure? How do you then grow and scale the business? Right? These are things that you need to figure out. And so to me, most of that is operational.5:365 minutes, 36 secondsIt's not deal making. It's not capital raising. That's operational. So my advice to them was make sure you have5:435 minutes, 43 secondsthat background because I think the negative sort of vibe of the ETA world is that a lot of these professionals5:515 minutes, 51 secondsdon't have that operating background. So can they re truly be successful and that that that's really that's the issue. So that's where I that's where I sort of focus my comments.6:016 minutes, 1 secondSure. And we're usually talking these days about baby boomer u founders that have a going concern that has a lot of6:086 minutes, 8 secondsvalue. Um maybe there's no transition or succession plan in place for a second generation, which is a difficult thing6:166 minutes, 16 secondsto manage. Um maybe there there just is no interest in a family extension of6:236 minutes, 23 secondsthis business. So their their succession plan involves how do I bring in the right leader? I might not have that person on staff. How often is this6:326 minutes, 32 secondsconversation um like what is the interview like with the CEO, the prospective CEO in waiting with a6:416 minutes, 41 secondsbacking and the seller entrepreneur who's trying to figure out is this a part of my succession plan as well as my exit plan?6:496 minutes, 49 secondsYeah, I think that's a common conversation. I I I don't think that's just for ETA. I think that's for independent sponsors, that's for private6:566 minutes, 56 secondsequity. Um, I think it's the same conversation, which is, um, and this is why I'm so excited about what I do,7:057 minutes, 5 secondsbecause it's my fundamental belief that there's some real macro trends. One of those macro trends is baby boomers are7:127 minutes, 12 secondsstarting to age out. They're getting older. And my, this is my own research.7:187 minutes, 18 secondsMy own research is that there are some somewhere between 3 to 5 million private businesses in this country with more7:247 minutes, 24 secondsthan one employee. Many of those businesses are owned by baby boomers and I would say the majority of those7:337 minutes, 33 secondscompanies don't have a succession plan, a clear succession plan. So there's going to be a great opportunity for whether you're an independent sponsor,7:417 minutes, 41 secondsprivate equity firm, ETA or or just an investor uh with that wave coming because they are starting to age7:497 minutes, 49 secondsout. So I think the conversation is uh you know you really need to address their wants, their goals for the7:587 minutes, 58 secondsbusiness and for the people. Now they're going to be sellers or entrepreneurs or owners that they want to sell the8:058 minutes, 5 secondsbusiness at the highest possible price, fastest deal, and go off to the beach.8:128 minutes, 12 secondsThose are not the type of businesses we go after.8:168 minutes, 16 secondsWhat we focus on are situations and I'll come back to ETA in a moment. We come we we we we really gravitate towards or try8:248 minutes, 24 secondsto target situations where it's a business owner that is looking to exit that's looking to create some liquidity for it state8:338 minutes, 33 secondsplanning or other whatever other reasons but wants to stay on board for a8:408 minutes, 40 secondstransitional period of time defined by years not months and potentially and hopefully have another bite at the apple. Right? So,8:498 minutes, 49 secondsthey're really looking for a a good run run runway to transition and exit, but they're young enough or perhaps8:578 minutes, 57 secondsenergetic enough to stay involved and continue to run the business that they have built over decades, sometimes generations and love. And if they really9:049 minutes, 4 secondscare about the people, the culture, the heritage of the business, this is the these are the type of buyers, I'm sorry, these are the type of sellers that we go after because that's exactly what we do.9:149 minutes, 14 secondsWe're seeking those situations. You mentioned something. Another bite at the apple. And just in case somebody doesn't know what that means. Let's let's let's visit that for just a second. Another9:239 minutes, 23 secondsbite at the apple means that somebody is still they've rolled equity into this new structure the owner has, right? And9:319 minutes, 31 secondsthere is an intention uh with new capital, new leadership, perhaps a new CEO. uh they might extend their their9:409 minutes, 40 secondsrole into a board position, but they're an owner and they're they're they're looking for a second exit. Really? Yeah. Yeah.9:489 minutes, 48 secondsAbsolutely. Um and those are the situations we look for. So, I'll give you an example of a deal we're closing tomorrow.9:559 minutes, 55 secondsIt's a business that's uh been around for over two decades. Um the owner has10:0210 minutes, 2 secondsgrown it very successfully over 20 years, scaled the business, but um it's10:0910 minutes, 9 secondstime for the owner to slow down a little bit perhaps, but also take some money off the table, but believes that there10:1710 minutes, 17 secondsis a tremendous amount of potential still left in the business. And so the deal we designed is we're acquiring 80%10:2510 minutes, 25 secondsof the business and the owner is going to stay in for 20% and continue to be actively involved in the business. And10:3210 minutes, 32 secondswhen I say second buy of the apple, just to double click on that, what I'm talking about is, and this is what I10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsview as success, if the seller is taking money off the table today, let's just say $20 million,10:4710 minutes, 47 secondsand they keep residual equity, and then together as partners, we build the business for another three, five, 10 years. And we'll talk about time frames10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsa little bit later, uh, I'm sure, but we build the business. So, we're creating a more valuable business. And for me, success is if that business11:0611 minutes, 6 secondsowner that is selling to us that took $20 million off the table can take as much at the other side on a lower valuation or on a lower equity holding.11:1511 minutes, 15 secondsThat to me is success. That's what we look That's what we look to do and accomplish.11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsThey'll take 80% of a $20 million valuation off the table. They'll roll that 20% let's say into the into the new11:2911 minutes, 29 secondsco and then that 20% five six years from now ought to be worth 20 million again.11:3611 minutes, 36 secondsRight. So we call that's a second bite at the apple. I want a third bite at that apple. Right. Yeah. No 100%. That's the goal.11:4311 minutes, 43 secondsAnd obviously not only are we creating value but we utilize other things like leverage that supercharges the equity return for this business owner on that11:5011 minutes, 50 secondssecond buy of the apple. Are you looking for an internal rate of return that's specific? How do you measure that?11:5611 minutes, 56 secondsWe we always um uh go into a situation and you know we have various cases that we're looking at but I I would say the conservative base case without acquisitions.12:0712 minutes, 7 secondsWe want to see um 25% irr over five years. You have to pick a you have you have to pick a destination, right? So12:1512 minutes, 15 secondsfive years is typical. So 25% and that translates into a three times your money12:2212 minutes, 22 secondsdeal. So so we're we're creating 25% IR in 5 years or three times your money.12:2812 minutes, 28 secondsThat has to be our minimum conservative base case. And from there we'll do other things to create more value from there.12:3512 minutes, 35 secondsObviously we want to create more value than what I'm just describing, but that's our conservative base case.12:4012 minutes, 40 secondsSo we're also usually talking about lower middle market. Uh let's let's define that a little bit. what is a lower middle market from your12:4812 minutes, 48 secondsperspective? Uh, and I we all have heard some very big transactions and some great big exit stories and everybody's excited for them and they're in the12:5712 minutes, 57 secondsupper middle market. You know, what is what is attainable, reachable and what's the range of capital investments that you're looking to make in that in that space?13:0413 minutes, 4 secondsYeah, I I would say everybody's definition is slightly different. Um, the way which is why I'm asking you, right?13:1013 minutes, 10 secondsYeah, absolutely. Uh the way I look at it is lower middle market is um valuations or enterprise values of up to13:1913 minutes, 19 seconds100 150 million in that ballpark. That to me is lower middle market. Okay.13:2413 minutes, 24 secondsWhat once you get past that I think then then you're starting to approach the middle market.13:2813 minutes, 28 secondsAnd so if you back into the IBA what does that mean right? What what are the IBA levels? I think you're you're looking at something in sort of the you13:3713 minutes, 37 secondsknow two even lower a million of IBA to probably about 15 million maybe 2013:4413 minutes, 44 secondsmillion of you that that's how I define lower middle market and in the lower middle market we're13:5113 minutes, 51 secondsseeing everybody talk about AI but not really have AI command and I'm not sure13:5813 minutes, 58 secondsanybody does but in your experience looking at these companies do you AI adoption in like an excellent example14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsof that. You see some poor examples of that. Does that add or detract to your perspective on valuation? How do you14:1514 minutes, 15 secondslook at AI as a tool um for getting at some of that value that you want to create over the next three to five years?14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsI think AI is incredibly uh disruptive in good and bad in good and bad ways. Um, and nobody knows what14:3214 minutes, 32 secondsit's going to look like. I think that's my first comment. I would say before I I I even get into AI, most of these lower14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsmiddle market companies are going to be familyowned and run typically for decades, sometimes generations. And most14:4814 minutes, 48 secondscases, they're still run like a familyrun business. Um, so before we even talk about AI, we have to talk about do they have a budgeting process?14:5914 minutes, 59 secondssome of the blocks and basic blocking tackling. Do they have good financial reporting?15:0415 minutes, 4 secondsDo they have IT systems, ERP systems, cyber security, cyber security, all of these things15:1115 minutes, 11 secondsbefore we even get to AI? What I've seen with AI, to answer your question, um I would say most of the companies in the15:1915 minutes, 19 secondslower metal market are not really utilizing AI. They don't understand it. And this is not a negative statement.15:2715 minutes, 27 secondsI'm just saying they they have not really ventured into AI as of yet. Uh I15:3315 minutes, 33 secondswould say the small minority are are playing with AI right now, but nobody has fully utilized AI. I15:4115 minutes, 41 secondshaven't seen a full kind of model uh being run at at any of these companies so far, but I think15:4815 minutes, 48 secondseverybody's aware of it. They're trying to figure it out. And you know we are trying to incorporate AI into our own portfolio companies.15:5815 minutes, 58 secondsI'll give you some examples. We used AI to market to to do uh things on the marketing side. Uh so we had uh people16:0716 minutes, 7 secondsprogram a way to use AI to do outreach, email, and even telephone calls. So that's something we've we've uh toyed16:1616 minutes, 16 secondswith. Um, we're using AI now um to analyze a lot of data and then take that data take that data and create16:2416 minutes, 24 secondsspreadsheets from it and graphs and then create whole PowerPoints.16:2916 minutes, 29 secondsAre you using AI in your due diligence process and how is that?16:3216 minutes, 32 secondsYeah, absolutely. We're starting to and and what we're doing is you can take so when it's a bank process meaning there's a bank or a broker involved typically16:4116 minutes, 41 secondsthey're producing what's called investment memo or investment presentation and also they have financials. So now16:4816 minutes, 48 secondswhat you could do is you could feed all of that information into these models and they'll spit out an executive16:5516 minutes, 55 secondssummary describing the business, some of the pros and cons of it, some of the risks, some of the upsides, and just17:0417 minutes, 4 secondsgive you sort of a holistic look at the deal. I I think you have to automate it and you have to customize it. But that17:1017 minutes, 10 secondsis saving us enormous amounts of time um just as an executive summary. And then once we pass that limus litmus test then we can dig deeper from there.17:2017 minutes, 20 secondsI find in my own M&A practice that uh writing the SIM the confidential information information memorandum which will have a lot of the things you just17:2817 minutes, 28 secondsreferenced uh writing that document with the entrepreneur and consolidating everybody's uh perspective on the17:3517 minutes, 35 secondsbusiness into a concise oh happens to be 60 pages you know or 45 pages long but as concise as you can get it is a very17:4417 minutes, 44 secondshelpful uh internal discipline it'd be like man I wish I had done this before when I wasn't trying to sell. How would this have clarified my operations and my17:5317 minutes, 53 secondsview to it? And I'm I'm curious. Uh we're talking about risks. What are some of the the risks that you find that17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsfounders overlook? Um and and what what could that could impact valuation or deal structures?18:1018 minutes, 10 secondsUh I'm not sure if it's risks, but it's certainly things that they need to consider. Um I would say the first thing18:1618 minutes, 16 secondsis financials. um they have to have good financial reporting and controls. Every18:2418 minutes, 24 secondsbuyer coming in, they're going to want to see your financials. So, if your financials are a mess, um they're not accurate, they're not timely, they're18:3318 minutes, 33 secondsnot organized, all of those are red flags. and it's just going to take longer for whether whether it's the buyer, the accounting firm or or or the18:4118 minutes, 41 secondsuh bankers um to get through due diligence, right?18:4618 minutes, 46 secondsAnd prepare what they need to prepare on their end. So, I would say that's number one. I would say number two is have good18:5318 minutes, 53 secondsIT and other type of systems in place because that really does produce the right amount of data and KPIs and other19:0119 minutes, 1 secondthings. uh and it shows that your your your company is wellrun typically I would say the third thing is have a real19:0819 minutes, 8 secondsmanagement infrastructure and this is very very rare I've rarely see this but have a management19:1719 minutes, 17 secondssuccession plan in place and people identified or at least a process that is very rare uh in the lower middle market19:2619 minutes, 26 secondsI rarely see that uh I would say also if you have, especially if you're seeking to sell, if you have something that's19:3519 minutes, 35 secondsvery thoughtful in terms of how you see the competitive landscape and then how do you want to grow, how you see growing the business and as a buyer, you never19:4419 minutes, 44 secondswant to see just one path to growth. You want to see multiple ways to win.19:4819 minutes, 48 secondsThat's good. That's a good piece of feedback, right? So if you have a a thoughtful kind of piece on this uh that is very19:5619 minutes, 56 secondsvaluable because that's what people want to see and that's what people will pay for.20:0020 minutesWhen you are looking at these growth strategies and you see a company that's never acquired another company and it says20:0920 minutes, 9 secondswe're going to grow by acquisition. Um that may be their signal. That may be them really saying hey we're ready to be20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsa platform. We want to grow by an acquisition. we need a partner and a capital planner and somebody like Protos20:2320 minutes, 23 secondsCapital uh at the table with us to execute this or is that somebody saying, you know, I'm suppose the details in the20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsdetails, but or is that somebody saying, "Hey, uh we're just throwing that up spaghetti on the wall." What What's your experience been?20:4020 minutes, 40 secondsI would say in most cases, um we don't see a lot of M&A activity historically in these lower middle market companies.20:4720 minutes, 47 secondsUm and I think the reason is very simple.20:5220 minutes, 52 secondsUh most of these companies have been around for multiple decades, sometimes generations, and they're successful.21:0021 minutesThey're quite successful and growing organically and growing organically. And why break that? Why break that by doing an21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsacquisition and potentially disrupting that? Why why break that? So I would say the vast majority of the cases we don't see a lot of M&A activity.21:1821 minutes, 18 secondsNow everybody everybody says in their information memorandums I'm sure you've seen the21:2421 minutes, 24 secondssame thing that one of the upsides is M&A activ M&A um growth. Yeah, we're ready. We're ready.21:3221 minutes, 32 secondsWe're ready now to do it. We just need the capital, the right financial partner, etc. Everybody says the same thing.21:3821 minutes, 38 secondsThe other thing I see quite often is diversification. Um, but going back to M&A, I would say, uh, it's easier said than done.21:4821 minutes, 48 secondsUm, you can't just do an M&A strategy for the sake of it. It has to make sense. I would say the first thing we look for is we look for fragmented21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsindustries. So, you want to make sure that there are targets and it make you know that there is a consolidation play.22:0222 minutes, 2 secondsWe do look for situations like that. So, that that's for sure. I would say the second thing is you want to make sure that the current management team can22:1022 minutes, 10 secondshandle an acquisition because there's a tremendous amount of work that goes into an acquisition not22:1722 minutes, 17 secondsonly the due diligence part of it but postclo the integration and making it work. So you want to make sure you have22:2422 minutes, 24 secondsthe proper team and infrastructure to do that. Now, of course, we're going to do quite a bit of the work and lead it, but you still need the right operating team22:3222 minutes, 32 secondsto integrate and do all the things that need to be done. Otherwise, it's going to fail, and we've seen that happen. So, you want to make sure the team is right22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsthat they because most times they don't have that experience. So, what do you do? Do you bring in people that have that experience? You bring in22:4622 minutes, 46 secondsconsultants, maybe a combination. So, these are things you need to consider.22:5122 minutes, 51 secondsUh third is you have to really think about is it more valuable for us to grow organically or through add-on acquisitions.22:5922 minutes, 59 secondsSometimes it's more valuable and is a better ROI if you just grow organically.23:0423 minutes, 4 secondsAnd I will tell you from experience that the market rewards organic growth more than acquisitions. Now there are plenty23:1123 minutes, 11 secondsof cases where uh companies and and sponsors that have rolled up and management teams that have rolled up23:1823 minutes, 18 secondsindustries like the dental and HVAC and some others have done extremely well. No question about it. But I think generally23:2823 minutes, 28 secondsspeaking what buyers really want to see is that there is real organic growth historically and there's prospectively good organic growth possibilities.23:3823 minutes, 38 secondsUm, I'll give you an example. We're in the process of selling a business now.23:4423 minutes, 44 secondsUh, we have doubled the business in three years.23:5023 minutes, 50 secondsDoubled the business in three years. We we did look at some acquisitions, but all of that growth is organic.24:0024 minutesAnd that just shows you the power of that platform and the power of the team. part of the24:0624 minutes, 6 secondsteam and our competitive position and all the things that go into it and we're in the process of selling that business.24:1324 minutes, 13 secondsI can't disclose any further information but uh you know the buyer universe both financial and strategic saw this24:2124 minutes, 21 secondsand they looked at it as a very very positive um trait right so I know and this is not24:2924 minutes, 29 secondsjust one incident we we've seen other instances of this but we know that's very valuable so we always look for a company now that has organic growth24:3824 minutes, 38 secondspotential it can't be just about acquisitions how do you measure the leadership skills of the uh the target I guess that you've24:4524 minutes, 45 secondsbeen going after, the new the new company that's working for you. How do you measure the leadership skills of the team in place?24:5324 minutes, 53 secondsThat's a very difficult question to answer. Um, I would say you need to assess it. First of all, in25:0125 minutes, 1 secondevery every situation when we're looking at a company,25:0825 minutes, 8 secondswe assess the the people first from the entrepreneur, the owners to the management team, and many cases the25:1525 minutes, 15 secondsemployees. And we do that because if we don't have the right people in place,25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsit's not going to work. uh and and we've made many mistakes where we have relied on the existing team and we've tried to25:3025 minutes, 30 secondsmake changes and that could be put in a new financial reporting system, bringing in ERP system, doing acquisitions or25:3825 minutes, 38 secondslooking at acquisitions, putting together real strategic plans, all of the expansion into other markets.25:4625 minutes, 46 secondsI will say from experience and we learned the hard way that it doesn't really work if you don't have the right people. So we are now very intentional25:5525 minutes, 55 secondswhen we assess a management team during due diligence. We we kind of identify okay this is where we think we have some26:0426 minutes, 4 secondsneeds and it could be perhaps a business development director. It could be perhaps a financial director or26:1226 minutes, 12 secondsa CFO. Perhaps it's a COO that can elevate the CEO in the next two to three years. and it's a talent gap or it's a a26:2026 minutes, 20 secondsbuilding block in the growth plan that you're evaluating together with with your seller.26:2526 minutes, 25 secondsSo, what we've changed in our model is uh we're very intentional now. So, we identify those holes, if you want to26:3226 minutes, 32 secondscall it that, and we communicate with everybody that's involved with the deal.26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsWe communicate with the owners, the management team, our capital partners, and everybody else. Make it very clear this is what we need to do. And now we26:4726 minutes, 47 secondsstart that process and if it's a search process or what have you, we start that process during due diligence even before we close. We are that intentional. We26:5626 minutes, 56 secondsare that intentional. We are very intentional.26:5926 minutes, 59 secondsNow going back to your talent question and how do you assess?27:0227 minutes, 2 secondsI think it's a combination of things really. Um you have to see the track record of the executives and the and the team. Obviously, you need to see how27:1127 minutes, 11 secondsthey've built the business, how they conduct themselves, what is the culture. Um, all of those things are27:1827 minutes, 18 secondsextremely important. I would say the second thing is you always want to see how the management team performed in moments of crisis.27:2927 minutes, 29 secondsIt's all great when things are good, but you never see true character or or you you never see sort of the true27:3727 minutes, 37 secondsperformance or the capabilities of a manage management team unless they're stressed.27:4227 minutes, 42 secondsSo, I would say, and I know this is one of your questions, but I would say that we're very fortunate, maybe fortunate, not fortunate, that there have been many27:5027 minutes, 50 secondscrisis points over the last 20, 30 years. Yeah, we call those in our previous conversations black swan events, which27:5727 minutes, 57 secondsI think black swan used to mean it almost never happens and now black swan feels like it's what's happening in the28:0628 minutes, 6 secondsnext 18 months followed by 18 months later. You know, it feels like there's a real accelerated cycle of quote unquote black swan events.28:1328 minutes, 13 secondsYeah, black swan events I I liken to um volatile weather.28:2028 minutes, 20 secondsWe used to say a hurricane once in a decade hurricane, right? A once every 50 years flood, right? Now that happens on a on an28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsannual basis. And I think black swans are similar where black swans used to happen every decade, maybe two decades.28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsNow black swans happen almost every year and may in some cases multiple black swans during a year. You know, we had we28:4328 minutes, 43 secondswe were able to live through over the last 10 years or so. But we had COVID, we had transportation, global supply chain28:5128 minutes, 51 secondsshocks, supply chain issues, we had inflation, we had high interest rates, we have28:5828 minutes, 58 secondsvarious wars going on uh around around the world, trade wars, trade wars, real wars, you have commodity shocks as a result of29:0729 minutes, 7 secondsall this. All of this causes you have tariffs.29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsAll of this causes disruption. And I would say that you want to see how the management performed during these times of crisis.29:2129 minutes, 21 secondsSo, so how how do you find that? I I'll back this with in my experience there29:2729 minutes, 27 secondshas been a a hotwash or a postevent meeting where everyone came together and29:3529 minutes, 35 secondswe said, "Wow, this was a problem. What did we learn? What did we not learn?" And you could maybe go to a file that was all the hotwashes and see what the29:4429 minutes, 44 secondssource, the lesson, the leading indicator of that uh and and maybe you don't see a pandemic coming, but you're29:5129 minutes, 51 secondsprepared for it. So you have a disaster recovery plan, you have a response plan under for certain circumstances. I mean,29:5929 minutes, 59 secondswhen you say you're going to try to figure out how did they handle crisis, most of the people sweep crisis under the under the rug. you know everything's30:0730 minutes, 7 secondsfine but there is a repeating recurring stress test in a business it happens you know quite frequently and how do you I30:1630 minutes, 16 secondsmean my experience was I I had a hot wash so you could go to the hot wash file and see the results um what is what30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsare you usually seeing how do you how do you evaluate that yeah I I'll answer your question two ways uh the first is when you assess a30:3130 minutes, 31 secondsmanagement team we we always look at that crisis point so Let's let's just let's just use COVID.30:3930 minutes, 39 secondsSo most companies what happened is the revenue went down by no you know on average I would say about 25% during COVID. Most companies not all companies30:4830 minutes, 48 secondsunless you're making masks and things like that they went down about 25% on average I would say. I I might be slightly off there. It's that's not what30:5730 minutes, 57 secondswe want to see. It's how did the business manage through the crisis and how did they come out of it? that they come out of it as a stronger company.31:0731 minutes, 7 secondsThat's what we want to see. So, you have the dip and then you have the recovery.31:1331 minutes, 13 secondsAnd what's very important is how how did they really recover? Did they capture market share? Did they stick with their customers?31:2231 minutes, 22 secondsDid they do what they needed to do to protect their market to protect their business?31:2831 minutes, 28 secondsInnovate, right? Yeah. Innovate sort of innovation and create the liquidity. you know what do they have to do so that's what we want to see in management teams31:3731 minutes, 37 secondsduring a crisis I would say with with respect to how we look at deals because now we have we live this is the new31:4431 minutes, 44 secondsnormal right where you have a black swan event almost every year uh you what we do is there there there a31:5331 minutes, 53 secondsnumber of things I could talk about one is you don't overlever a company so debt is a we never overlever I at one point in my32:0132 minutes, 1 secondcareer I was at the chase workout group in the early 90s and I could tell you every issue related to debt. Ultimately,32:0732 minutes, 7 secondsit came down to debt, right? Something happened and they had too much debt or they couldn't afford the debt service or what have you, but everything came down32:1432 minutes, 14 secondsto debt. So, we're very conscious of that. So, when we're buying a company and structuring the capital structure, we don't usually go beyond, you know, 332:2332 minutes, 23 secondsto 4x total iba of total leverage. We we we never go beyond that.32:2932 minutes, 29 secondsYeah. And I think that's an important note because I live in a world where the entrepreneurs have read about somebody32:3632 minutes, 36 secondsgetting 10x or 12x or 15x, you know, and and they think that that's they think that's normal because that's the negative select. That's what they've been reading about.32:4532 minutes, 45 secondsNo, that that that is not normal. Yeah, that is that is the extreme I would say extreme kind of outcomes.32:5232 minutes, 52 secondsSo going back to your question though, so I think one is don't don't we never overlever. We're very modest in our leverage. we leave ourselves room for33:0033 minutesflexibility for what for black swan events and for growth. So we make sure there's sufficient liquidity for those type of events and also for for growth.33:1033 minutes, 10 secondsThe second thing is we're very thoughtful about the structure and valuation when we look at a company. So if we know that a company is in a33:1833 minutes, 18 secondscyclical market or has commodity risk or perhaps they have exposure to33:2633 minutes, 26 secondsoutsource manufacturing that could be impacted by tariffs or other things that happen in the world stage. We're very33:3333 minutes, 33 secondsconscious of that and what we try to do is we try to obviously you have to value it correctly but we try to structure the deal where we have some contingencies33:4133 minutes, 41 secondsand that could be an earnout or seller notes or seller equity or other other mechanisms like that. But we we always33:4833 minutes, 48 secondstry to be very thoughtful about how we structure these deals and value these deals knowing that there could be some shocks to the system33:5533 minutes, 55 secondsbecause you're you're 100% right. I've never seen a company that goes on a straight line. Never. It's always a jagged line or a hockey stick, right? It's always a jagged line%.34:0634 minutes, 6 secondsSo, you have to expect the unexpected.34:0834 minutes, 8 secondsSo, that means you got to be modest and leverage and then build in build build a structure that's going to be able to withstand that and have those contingencies. I think that's just being smart.34:1734 minutes, 17 secondsMy friend Brandon shared a piece of advice recently. Dress so that if someone dressed up as you for a costume party, everyone would know it was you.34:2734 minutes, 27 secondsNow, that's not entirely about clothing.34:3034 minutes, 30 secondsThat's about identity, about showing up fully. My wife Jenny and I are leaning in on this concept, both in our personal34:3834 minutes, 38 secondslives and now in a little startup we call Happy Overall. We're making overalls. Each one is made to order as a34:4734 minutes, 47 secondswearable canvas for art. Overalls that are comfortable, durable, and expressive. We're sourcing soft 100%34:5634 minutes, 56 secondscotton. We're partnering with designers and with local seamstresses who love the artistry of a well-crafted piece of35:0435 minutes, 4 secondsclothing. We're launching in summer of 26. So check out happyoverall.com to see pics and see if anything35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsresonates with you fully you and it'll happen every time you reach for them. If you want to be part of the first run,35:1935 minutes, 19 secondsjoin our weight list at happyoverall.com.35:2235 minutes, 22 secondsSo Doug, when we first started talking, um, I was I was I was pointed in your direction by the Nashville business35:3235 minutes, 32 secondscommunity that you have, uh, developed such a great relationship with here and also some people from outside of the35:3935 minutes, 39 secondsstate I was talking to who are in the in the private equity space and they're saying, you know, you're doing this parallel entrepreneur thing. You got to35:4735 minutes, 47 secondstalk to Doug Song. and and we our first conversations you were like well I'm not really a parallel entrepreneur I I think35:5435 minutes, 54 secondsmaybe well let's let me let me consider that and so what I wanted to do was just pivot for a minute into that exploration process um tell us how many portfolio36:0336 minutes, 3 secondscompanies you have and how many different industries doing different things right um and then the lessons36:1236 minutes, 12 secondsthat you've learned from each of those experiences what would they what would they sound like because you are I think36:1936 minutes, 19 secondsan entrepreneur and you just do it differently. Uh and you got some lessons to share with our audience. So you've been in how many companies, how many36:2736 minutes, 27 secondsindustries and and what are some of the takeaways?36:3236 minutes, 32 secondsSo many lessons and um I will say one couple things before I go into the um the examples. Um I would say I 100%36:4036 minutes, 40 secondsthink of myself as an entrepreneur. Um, I think of myself as an entrepreneur first and foremost, not a private equity36:4736 minutes, 47 secondsinvestor, not as an independent sponsor, not as a u an owner, none of those things. I think of myself as an36:5436 minutes, 54 secondsentrepreneur. I think about our business, Protos Capital, literally every day. And I think about all the37:0237 minutes, 2 secondscompanies and people that are associated with us every day as an entrepreneur.37:0637 minutes, 6 secondsThat's what entrepreneurs do. And we're con I'm constantly trying to figure out, okay, how do we do this better?37:1237 minutes, 12 secondsWhat lessons have we learned? How do we do this better? I'm constantly thinking about that. And I will say I've made tremendous amounts of mistakes. I'm37:2037 minutes, 20 secondsstill making mistakes and I'm just trying to get better. And I feel like we are getting better. But it's all from all of those compounded mistakes over37:2937 minutes, 29 secondsdecades that we've learned. I think that's true of any entrepreneur. I haven't met an entrepreneur that has a different script than that. So wi with37:3737 minutes, 37 secondsthat said, um we're in six portfolio companies at the moment. Um, we have an a business. Uh, we have a transportation37:4537 minutes, 45 secondslogistics brokerage business. We have a fuel distribution business. We have a niche manufacturing company. We have um37:5437 minutes, 54 secondsa commercial HVAC um rep firm/engineering firm. Um, and um we38:0338 minutes, 3 secondsare, you know, so we're we're in a wide array of industries. We're just about to acquire a uh ambulance transportation company as another example.38:1338 minutes, 13 secondsSo we traffic in a wide array of industries, but I think there's some commonalities that I could maybe talk38:1938 minutes, 19 secondsabout versus each company. I would say we've always struggled when we don't have the right team in place.38:2938 minutes, 29 secondsThe right leader and team always struggled.38:3338 minutes, 33 secondsIt doesn't matter if you have a great business, good competitive modes, things like that, good margins. If you don't have the right people, I've learned the38:4138 minutes, 41 secondshard way, it's not going to succeed or the way you think it should succeed. So, that's my first lesson, and that's true38:4838 minutes, 48 secondsof all of these industries. So, I'm going to give you the macro lessons I think we've learned. Sure.38:5338 minutes, 53 secondsI think the second is what we talked about earlier, which is not being intentional enough.39:0139 minutes, 1 secondWe have great faith in people. It's we're a people first uh firm and that's our core philosophy. So we put great39:0939 minutes, 9 secondsfaith in people and with that faith you have to give them time and patience and trust39:1639 minutes, 16 secondsand we've done that. And I would say when you know there are holes and we don't address it because we have39:2439 minutes, 24 secondsthat confidence or faith in people, sometimes that just delays everything or it leads to bad outcomes. So that's why39:3239 minutes, 32 secondswe're so intentional now because it's one thing to trust people, it's another thing to know that there's a problem and you need to address it. And we've waited39:4039 minutes, 40 secondstoo long many cases. So now we don't do that any longer. Now we address it up front. But we make it clear to everyone all the parties that's that have a that39:4839 minutes, 48 secondsthat are stakeholders. We make it very clear up front.39:5139 minutes, 51 secondsAnd the benefit of that is that in integration you have the relationship equity and the clarity to identify the39:5939 minutes, 59 secondsholes. And you're not expecting somebody to just invent skills and talents they don't have and they weren't expected to have up until this point.40:0640 minutes, 6 secondsY and together you say, "Well, there's there's a gap. We're going to we're going to fill it together." And then that leans into the integration experience.40:1440 minutes, 14 secondsYeah, 100%. And again, you know, we've learned this the hard way. I would I would say something else that we touched on before which I think is worth40:2240 minutes, 22 secondsreinforcing is we've done acquisition strategies, but sometimes we do acquisitions without the integration, enough integration and40:3140 minutes, 31 secondsnot enough organic growth. And I've seen that that is not well received by the market even though we create maybe created critical size and other things.40:3940 minutes, 39 secondsSo that's why we are so focused on organic growth because we believe that the fundamentally that's what creates true alpha. Obviously you have to buy it40:4840 minutes, 48 secondsright, you have to exit right, you have to manage it correctly in in the interim, but it's really that organic40:5540 minutes, 55 secondsgrowth that creates to me the true alpha if you if you can find it and find a way to do it. So I would say that I I would41:0141 minutes, 1 secondsay perhaps the last thing is you you have to understand that every business especially in the lower middle market I41:1041 minutes, 10 secondscall it gestation periods they're all so different they're going to run into diff so so many different challenges it's41:1641 minutes, 16 secondsnever the same it's always a new script that's why we call entrepreneurship that's exactly why and so you have to be41:2441 minutes, 24 secondsable to pivot quickly and have a very flexible model and that's why we're an independent sponsor because I would say41:3141 minutes, 31 secondsif if I was to raise a fund, a billion dollar fund and become a private equity fund, then I have a 10-year uh life of41:4141 minutes, 41 secondsthe fund, which means I need to invest those dollars in two to four years, two to five years. I41:5041 minutes, 50 secondsneed to exit in three to five years to show my marks or the return so I can raise my next bigger fund. That is the41:5841 minutes, 58 secondsgame you have to play and and there's pressure to deploy that capital 100% and it's a very successful model. Many practitioners have done quite well.42:0742 minutes, 7 secondsUh but that's not the game I want to play because in the lower middle market because of the different gestation periods. You can't rely on just a 3 to 542:1642 minutes, 16 secondsyear hold and you exit. Sometimes it takes longer because you may run into issues. You can't build the infrastructure fast enough. you can't42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsfind that organic growth or maybe the acquisitions are not there fast enough. Maybe the market moves away from you. Maybe you lose a key customer or two.42:3242 minutes, 32 secondsI've had that happen. Maybe other things happen that is completely out of your control like some of the things we talked about co inflation high interest42:4142 minutes, 41 secondsrates and what does that do to your business and and so you never know. So that's why I think you need different42:4942 minutes, 49 secondsgestation periods under the gun in terms of time. Now, of course, we all want to do well and create value, etc. But I think because we're an independent42:5742 minutes, 57 secondssponsor, we have ultimate flexibility, not only on how we structure the deal upfront, and I could talk about that if43:0543 minutes, 5 secondsyou like, but also the investment thesis, the partnership with the existing owners and all the other uh stakeholders, including capital43:1343 minutes, 13 secondspartners, making sure all of our interests are aligned.43:1743 minutes, 17 secondsImportantly, we have to find a way to add value, right? So why are we at the table? Can't be just about the money. It has to be that we're bringing something43:2443 minutes, 24 secondsto the entrepreneur, to this company that is going to be of value. Maybe it's because we've seen the script so many times because we can help them sort of43:3343 minutes, 33 secondsdirect traffic and figure out how to take this take this from a $30 million revenue company to a hundred million revenue company, right? So it could be43:4143 minutes, 41 secondsthings like that. But I think all of those things are essential to making this work. So that's those are the important themes and lessons that we've43:4943 minutes, 49 secondslearned over all of these various industries. I think they're all the same.43:5243 minutes, 52 secondsAre your capital partners different from dealtodeal? Uh how how do you assemble that backing?44:0144 minutes, 1 secondUh that's a great question. I would say let me explain it the following way. Uh we've done deals many different ways um with different capital.44:0944 minutes, 9 secondsWe're talking about dozens and dozens of deals. Dozens and dozens of deals.44:1244 minutes, 12 secondsWhen we talk about deals, we're not talking about a few deals. We're talking about a lot of deals.44:1644 minutes, 16 secondsYes. So I will say I I will start with uh the two bookends.44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsThere are two bookends and everything in between. The bookends are one is what I would call uh you know sort of a slow44:3044 minutes, 30 secondsgrowth high cash flow deal. So it's a company that's in a mature industry typically very good cash flow characteristics. It's been around for a44:3844 minutes, 38 secondslong time typically and it's there's a reason for it to be uh and then has such strong uh cash flow characteristics that44:4744 minutes, 47 secondsyou could do the deal if you pay the right price and structure, pay down the debt and pay dividends along the way.44:5244 minutes, 52 secondsThat to me is a longer term hold which might require patient capital. So for that kind of deal, we may populate the45:0045 minutesequity, the cap stack with patient capital such as high net worth investors or family offices because they typically45:0845 minutes, 8 secondshave a longer term view perhaps an insurance company. The other extreme is what I call high velocity of capital deals. What does that mean?45:1745 minutes, 17 secondsIf we go into a deal and we know that this is going to be all about fast growth, acquisitions, deployment of45:2445 minutes, 24 secondscapital, we may populate and might might be a shorter term hold versus this.45:3045 minutes, 30 secondsWe may populate that deal with institutional investors.45:3445 minutes, 34 secondsWhy? Because institutional investors are built for that time frame and to deploy capital. That is entirely their job.45:4145 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. And sometimes it's a challenge for them to deploy capital. They're really looking for competent managers, competent businesses, good return on investment, but a track record as well.45:5145 minutes, 51 secondsRight? So, those are the two bookends and everything in between. So, we've done deals where it's just us and high net worth investors and maybe a bank.46:0046 minutesWe've done deals where it's just all institutional capital. We've done deals in the middle where you have a combination of high net worth, family46:0846 minutes, 8 secondsoffices, institutional capital. We've done that, too. And everything in between. So it really depends on the deal. And the beauty of the independent46:1546 minutes, 15 secondssponsor model is that we can tailor the structure the the the deal structure46:2246 minutes, 22 secondsand the capital partners to that specific opportunity depending on what the investment thesis is and what the goals are of all the parties.46:3146 minutes, 31 secondsAnd that's what's great about this model has ultimate flexibility.46:3546 minutes, 35 secondsI'm curious about some of the similarities that you find with the46:4346 minutes, 43 secondsentrepreneurs that you are partnering with. Um, every entrepreneur is different. I've heard this many times46:5046 minutes, 50 secondsum, in lots of conversations. We're all unique, but I'm curious, what are the similarities that are the entrepreneurs46:5846 minutes, 58 secondswho are successful in working with your your model?47:0247 minutes, 2 secondsI would say um it's a self- selection process first of all. Um not only do we need to select the entrepreneur and the47:1047 minutes, 10 secondsmanagement teams that we want to partner with and work with, but they have to select us.47:1647 minutes, 16 secondsSo I would say uh we look for entrepreneurs and management teams that have built have built great businesses47:2447 minutes, 24 secondsover periods of time, decades. Um, we look for great teams, great leaders and47:3147 minutes, 31 secondsgreat teams. We look for people that really care about the people, their employees, their customers, their47:3947 minutes, 39 secondssuppliers. Sometimes these companies um are very important also to the community. So, they care a lot about the community. They care a lot about their47:4747 minutes, 47 secondslegacy and their brand. You know, what they've built, what they stand for.47:5247 minutes, 52 secondsum and for whatever reason they have reached a plateau. That could be that could be age, that could be lack of48:0048 minutescapital, working capital, that could be they don't know where to go from here.48:0548 minutes, 5 secondsCould be any number of things, but they many times will reach a plateau and that's where we come in. We can help them take it from here now to the next48:1448 minutes, 14 secondsplateau or above. Right? That really is how I would summarize it. But we're looking for those management teams that want to help us get to the next plateau.48:2448 minutes, 24 secondsWe're not looking for the management teams that want to sell 100% and then go off to the beach. We're really looking for management teams and owners that48:3148 minutes, 31 secondswant a partner and they want a good steward for the business. That's very, very important in our model. We're looking for owners, business owners that48:4048 minutes, 40 secondsare looking for a good steward for the business because they care about all the things I just talked about, the employees, the heritage, the community.48:4648 minutes, 46 secondsThey know that if they sell to a strategic buyer, that might not happen. I think you know the reasons why. If they sell to a48:5448 minutes, 54 secondsprivate equity fund, that might not happen. Why? Because a private equity fund has to buy your business and flip you in three to five years.49:0349 minutes, 3 secondsA whole new set of pressure and possibly to another private equity buyer. Most often.49:0849 minutes, 8 secondsMost often. And what happens? All the things you cared about dissipates over time. That's just natural law. it's49:1549 minutes, 15 secondsgoing to dissipate over time the more times you get flipped. So, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that model, but but what what I'm suggesting49:2249 minutes, 22 secondsis we're looking for business owners that really care about all of those things.49:2749 minutes, 27 secondsAnd you you have developed a practice where you are coaching other independent sponsors. I think that's super unusual49:3449 minutes, 34 secondsabout your story. tell us, you know, what does an average day in your life look like when you're finding and49:4249 minutes, 42 secondscoaching and working with other people similar to you?49:4549 minutes, 45 secondsYeah, absolutely. I I I'm a big believer in this model. I have been from the beginning. I've been a supporter of it.49:5249 minutes, 52 secondsUm and uh you know, I've done many I guess panels and other things, podcast, things like that. But what I would say49:5949 minutes, 59 secondsis uh and I want this industry, this private equity uh asset class to do50:0750 minutes, 7 secondswell. When I started uh co-founded Protoscap, excuse me, um you know, 25 years ago roughly50:1650 minutes, 16 secondsum it was a very much of a college industry, very unknown, not even a name for it. We called ourselves a merchant bank back then and then it turned into50:2450 minutes, 24 secondsfund the sponsor and now independent sponsor. Now fast forward to today. Back then there was, you know, handfuls of us maybe. We we really didn't know back50:3250 minutes, 32 secondsthen. And now it's a legitimate, I think, asset class where you have 2 to 3,000 independent sponsor firms in the US alone.50:4150 minutes, 41 seconds2 to 3,000 companies looking for acquisitions who will build the capital stack around the50:5050 minutes, 50 secondsplan and the engagement with the entrepreneur.50:5450 minutes, 54 seconds100% correct. And to your question, so because now it's grown so dramatically,51:0151 minutes, 1 secondyou have a lot of um folks and um teams that are looking to become independent sponsors. And I would say independent51:0951 minutes, 9 secondssponsors are for the most part teams of one to three people. I would say on average that's what you're going to see.51:1851 minutes, 18 secondsAnd some of these individuals or teams are perhaps they don't have the right experience or they're just starting out.51:2651 minutes, 26 secondsThey may have investment banking backgrounds may perhaps some uh private equity backgrounds, consulting, engineers,51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsum operators, I mean all kinds of different backgrounds. But many times because we are, you know, very51:4251 minutes, 42 secondsclose-knit community, uh, much like you heard about, uh, me through the grapevine, they will hear about me or I will get introduced to some of these51:5051 minutes, 50 secondsemerging independent sponsors and I always take the call. Um, and I'm happy to offer whatever advice and I do on51:5951 minutes, 59 secondsoccasion uh, actively mentor mentor emerging independent sponsors. uh especially if I see that they're very serious people, they have the entrepreneurial spirit, all the things.52:0952 minutes, 9 secondsUh I do I do do that. In fact, I'm very pleased to say that uh one of those firms is going to join us on on a on a a deal that we're closing very very soon.52:1952 minutes, 19 secondsSo, it's not just lip service. It's actually, you know, we put it into practice and it's just part of growing this community. And you know what's52:2752 minutes, 27 secondsgreat about the independent sponsor community? I I'll just say this out loud is it's highly collaborative. I don't52:3452 minutes, 34 secondsview any other independent sponsors as my competitors. We may be competing on a deal perhaps, but I really don't view them as competitors. I view them as52:4252 minutes, 42 secondscollabor you know collaborative you know uh people in the in the same market resources resources and you know that's how we52:4952 minutes, 49 secondstalk that's how we share ideas and and I love that about this community. I can't say that about every community in finance, but this is a very special, unique, and I want to keep it that way.52:5952 minutes, 59 secondsI love that in the last 10 minutes, you've probably used the community, the word community five different ways, but53:0653 minutes, 6 secondssuper consistently as it applies to um the the newly acquired company.53:1453 minutes, 14 secondsThey'll have a community engagement, maybe even a history of supporting a particular um cause or53:2353 minutes, 23 secondsum problem area that the community that they live in and care about is is focused on. Um ho how do you do you53:3153 minutes, 31 secondscontinue that? Do you amplify that? Do you help them measure that? Do you what what would what do you do as a community53:4053 minutes, 40 secondsfocused leader when you're involved in a new community with this seller? How do you look at that?53:4853 minutes, 48 secondsFirst of all, we we treat business owners um and management teams with53:5653 minutes, 56 secondsutmost respect and that includes anything that they really care about.54:0254 minutes, 2 secondsIt could be a charity. It could be things in the community.54:0654 minutes, 6 secondsIt could be a way they do off-sites with their employees or management teams. It could be uh the way they54:1354 minutes, 13 secondsu manage their u you know daily meetings or weekly meetings. Um we don't disrupt any of that. In fact, we encourage it54:2154 minutes, 21 secondsbecause that's what's partly why it's the culture.54:2454 minutes, 24 secondsThe culture that's what's made this company great to begin with. Let's not mess that up. In fact, let's figure out how to expand upon it. So that's that's54:3254 minutes, 32 secondsour view. Uh and we we will never and I say this at almost every management meeting. We will never understand your54:4054 minutes, 40 secondsbusiness better than you will. We will never understand your industry better than you will. And we will never pretend that we will that we're smarter. And54:4954 minutes, 49 secondsit's the truth. They just will know it so much better. So we have to give them that difference. Our job is to find other ways to add value. That is our job.54:5854 minutes, 58 secondsSo getting to this point in your career, tell us a little bit about the the young Doug, you know, what did you experience55:0855 minutes, 8 secondsgrowing up that shaped your entrepreneurial perspective and uh how does that play into your life today?55:1855 minutes, 18 secondsOh, it's a great question. I I hope I don't get emotional, but um I would say uh I came to this country with my family when I was 7 years old. Um, I'm not55:2755 minutes, 27 secondsgoing to give away my age, but let's just say it was a long time ago. Um, we immigrated from South Korea to New York City and we were typical Korean55:3555 minutes, 35 secondsimmigrants. My parents had a fruit and vegetable store in Brooklyn on Flapish Avenue. I still remember it vividly. I used to work at the store as a young55:4355 minutes, 43 secondskid. We lived in the projects two blocks away because of proximity. Um,55:5055 minutes, 50 secondsand uh, I just I just saw how hard they worked. I'm talking seven days a week manual labor55:5955 minutes, 59 secondshandual level entrepreneurship no vacations and I I used to work at the store so I know and I just saw how hard56:0756 minutes, 7 secondsthey worked and the entrepreneurship what it took um and you know they did they sacrificed their entire adult lives56:1756 minutes, 17 secondsfor my generation so that we could go to school college and have hopefully a better life and I I I pay them great56:2556 minutes, 25 secondstribute and respect for what they have done. So we came here with nothing and I still believe we have nothing. I have56:3456 minutes, 34 secondsthis big chip on my shoulder that we came here with nothing and that's what drives me today and it continues to drive me. It'll drive me56:4256 minutes, 42 secondstill I pass out basically. And it's that entrepreneurial spirit that I love that experience that carries with me today.56:5156 minutes, 51 secondsAnd that's why I love dealing with entrepreneurs, by the way. That's why I'm not trying to do mega billion-dollar deals. I want to deal with the56:5956 minutes, 59 secondsentrepreneurs. I want to help them in their journey, solve their problems, help them get to the next iteration,57:0657 minutes, 6 secondsright? That's why I do what I do in this end of the market. And you know, that's what drives me. And that that's sort of how all of this happened.57:1557 minutes, 15 secondsI love that you got that's why this is what my why is. And I'm curious, uh, you57:2257 minutes, 22 secondshave some additional entrepreneurial visions that involve starting a nonprofit or getting into a different57:2957 minutes, 29 secondsstructure and still extending entrepreneurial community. Um, tell us about this thing that is on your dream board and how are you bringing it to life?57:3957 minutes, 39 secondsYeah, absolutely. So, I want to we're going to continue continue to do deals at Protos Capital. We've talked about that, so I'm not going to spend more time on that, but we're going to57:4657 minutes, 46 secondscontinue to do that. But I think what I want to do now is uh uh create a holding57:5357 minutes, 53 secondscompany of of sorts and to acquire um what I would call bluecollar service businesses. That can mean many different things. HVAC, plumbing, electrical, etc.58:0558 minutes, 5 secondsWhy that? Because I think there's going to be great demand for those services.58:0958 minutes, 9 secondsUm obviously this is not new. I'm not saying saying anything new and a lot of deal activities already occurred in those sectors. But I do believe that58:1858 minutes, 18 secondsthose industries will continue continue to thrive. And why am I picking that?58:2358 minutes, 23 secondsNot only because I think there's going to be demand because you have an aging population.58:2758 minutes, 27 secondsWith AI, interestingly, it's going to come up again in a second. With AI, interestingly, I think more people going to have more free time.58:3558 minutes, 35 secondsAnd with that free time because comes the need for more services at your home because you're going to be spending more time at your home and doing other things. And so I think those services58:4458 minutes, 44 secondswill be needed for all those reasons and it's going to continue to be, you know, in demand. And AI, I don't sense is58:5258 minutes, 52 secondsgoing to be as disruptive. Now, you're going to need AI to do things like, you know, the the the the marketing, the planning, and other things. You58:5958 minutes, 59 secondscertainly will need AI to do those things, but I think those industries I'm very excited about. And I'm also picking that because I want to do something here59:0759 minutes, 7 secondslocally in Nashville and Tennessee. And what my vision is, and it's the first time I'm talking about it publicly honestly, is the other thing uh I'm59:1659 minutes, 16 secondstrying to do is hopefully work with the state, but put together a program.59:2159 minutes, 21 secondsAgain, there are other states and people thinking about this and doing it. So, this is not new, but what I'm thinking is create a program where we can go59:2959 minutes, 29 secondsalmost at the high school trade school level and present and give the kids a choice.59:3559 minutes, 35 secondsAnd the choice is you could go to your college, four-year college and do all, you know, pursue your dreams.59:4359 minutes, 43 secondsOr you can come to this side of the house, become an apprentice and learn a trade.59:5259 minutes, 52 secondsAnd the deal is going to be you have to learn. First of all, you have to be an apprentice.59:5759 minutes, 57 secondsThe second thing is we're going to set you up with a 401k or a Wroth immediately.1:00:041 hour, 4 secondsAnd if you're going to join us, you need to commit to contribute x% every every month or quarter to this.1:00:131 hour, 13 secondsAnd we're going to show them the compounding impact of that over 10 years, 30 years, 60 years.1:00:221 hour, 22 secondsThere there's nothing better than infrastructure when you are starting from a position where you don't understand how valuable it is.1:00:301 hour, 30 secondsCompounding is the most magical thing.1:00:311 hour, 31 secondsyou're talking about uh teaching them something about finance and they're you know bluecollar we we everybody knows white collar blue collar blue collar1:00:391 hour, 39 secondssome of these uh transactions are generating multi-millionaires there's no question about it but they might not know how to have developed a business in the first place1:00:471 hour, 47 secondsso what I think I'm hearing is you're going to be uh creating a pathway for1:00:561 hour, 56 secondsour youth to look at more than one future future whether they're going to be working in a particular industry or1:01:051 hour, 1 minute, 5 secondsperhaps building a business in that industry. Right? Because the path here is that you're going to help them get to a place where they are a business owner1:01:141 hour, 1 minute, 14 seconds100%. So part of this is not only you know teaching them the financial piece of it but um they're going to get a piece of the1:01:221 hour, 1 minute, 22 secondsbusiness. So they are going to be entrepreneurs and so it's not going to be just a employee relationship. This is going to1:01:301 hour, 1 minute, 30 secondsbe very much of a people first um company and we're going to put the people first because if we take care of1:01:371 hour, 1 minute, 37 secondsour people, they'll take care of the clients.1:01:401 hour, 1 minute, 40 secondsAnother consistent another super consistent uh pattern from your life experiences, right?1:01:451 hour, 1 minute, 45 seconds100%. And I'll come back to AI and the other side of AI is I personally believe and again there's great deal of uncertainty right now but I personally1:01:531 hour, 1 minute, 53 secondsbelieve that AI is going to be disruptive and it's going to create a lot of uncertainty with especially the younger generation.1:02:051 hour, 2 minutes, 5 secondsWhat jobs are going to be available to them once they get their college degree?1:02:091 hour, 2 minutes, 9 secondsWhat entry level jobs are truly going to be available? And if they are going to be available, are they going to be limited? So they're fighting for fewer jobs. So I think that's going to create1:02:181 hour, 2 minutes, 18 secondsa lot of anxiety and confusion. And so we need to give people a choice. And part of this is and this will be sort of1:02:261 hour, 2 minutes, 26 secondsthe nonprofit. I'm not seeking to make money from this obviously. That's just to help as many people as we possibly can. And what I want to do is I want to1:02:341 hour, 2 minutes, 34 secondsrecruit other companies to join. It's not just us.1:02:391 hour, 2 minutes, 39 secondsI want to join other I want to have other companies because we have to have scale, right? I can't do this on on our own obviously. So we need to create1:02:471 hour, 2 minutes, 47 secondsscale. So what I want to do is I want to create a a a situation where we have other companies as part of this kitu if you want to call it and give people a1:02:551 hour, 2 minutes, 55 secondschoice and again this has to be people first but they need to know they have good options and this is one of those1:03:031 hour, 3 minutes, 3 secondsoptions and I I think that's perfectly legitimate option to take where you can make a good living1:03:111 hour, 3 minutes, 11 secondshave a house get married a family and have savings at the end of the day and have an upside on the equity side and have the upside on the business.1:03:201 hour, 3 minutes, 20 secondsA lot of times the business owner owns 100% or owns 80% because he or she gave1:03:261 hour, 3 minutes, 26 seconds20% to his daughter or some family member in the business or their their partnerships that were co-founded and1:03:341 hour, 3 minutes, 34 secondsyou have 50%. You're you're still talking about equity is the way most wealth is created, some form of equity.1:03:441 hour, 3 minutes, 44 secondsAnd you're going to be bringing this vision, which excites me, is going to be bringing some of the greatest um potential job opportunities that should be consistently available in the future.1:03:561 hour, 3 minutes, 56 secondsUm and bringing new talent into those pathways and at the same time giving them an equity opportunity. Uh they can earn their way into it. How how do you1:04:051 hour, 4 minutes, 5 secondsvision that? Well, we we haven't worked all of that out to be honest. Um, but it could be a profit share, it could be equity, it could be a combination of1:04:121 hour, 4 minutes, 12 secondsthose things, but for sure I want to I want everybody to feel like they're an owner, especially of their own business.1:04:201 hour, 4 minutes, 20 secondsI think that's extremely important.1:04:221 hour, 4 minutes, 22 secondsAnd you'd identified this community as Tennessee. Um, I love that. I mean, we we all have to find our our place, our1:04:301 hour, 4 minutes, 30 secondspeeps, our tribe, our community. and you've identified this as um a Tennessee1:04:371 hour, 4 minutes, 37 secondsinnovation. Are you finding just pivot for a second to where we live in Nashville and the state of Tennessee?1:04:441 hour, 4 minutes, 44 secondsAre you finding that Tennessee has got u superpowers and and opportunities that are going unnoticed or are you in are1:04:531 hour, 4 minutes, 53 secondsyou harvesting what's already here with this vision? How do you how do you view the environment?1:04:581 hour, 4 minutes, 58 secondsYeah, I'm I'll answer that question a few ways. First of all, I I think the US is the greatest country in the world.1:05:041 hour, 5 minutes, 4 secondsUm, speaking as an immigrant, the opportunities, just think about the journey came we came here with nothing. Fruit and1:05:121 hour, 5 minutes, 12 secondsvegetable stores, hard upbringing to sitting here doing this podcast with you and even talking about these subjects and I'm grateful for that, too.1:05:221 hour, 5 minutes, 22 secondsRight. This is the greatest country in the world. Second is uh I moved here from New York City about five years ago and I wish I did 10 years ago. Um,1:05:311 hour, 5 minutes, 31 secondsNashville, Tennessee has been fabulous for us. Um, not only our family, the business. I think it's a great1:05:381 hour, 5 minutes, 38 secondscommunity, and that's why I want to do this here. This is my home, and I want to protect my home and also make it1:05:461 hour, 5 minutes, 46 secondsbetter and create opportunities for as many people as I possibly can. That is part of this mission. I want to create1:05:541 hour, 5 minutes, 54 secondsopportunities for as many people as I possibly can, help as many families as I can. That's partly why I'm doing this.1:06:001 hour, 6 minutesIt's not to just make money. It's about helping as many people in this community as possible.1:06:051 hour, 6 minutes, 5 secondsA great definition of success. So, what is it that you feed your mind with? If I was saying, what's on your nightstand?1:06:121 hour, 6 minutes, 12 secondsWhat are you reading? What are you listening to? Uh, what what did you find sharpening Doug Song's mind?1:06:181 hour, 6 minutes, 18 secondsI I'm I'm I'm on pace to read, I think, a book a week right now. I might be slightly off because we're trying to close a deal,1:06:271 hour, 6 minutes, 27 secondsbut um I I read a lot of um history, biographies,1:06:331 hour, 6 minutes, 33 secondsum business strategy, um anything that is going to help me learn, I read. Um I'm reading a book now1:06:431 hour, 6 minutes, 43 secondsabout dysfunctional teams and how to correct it.1:06:471 hour, 6 minutes, 47 secondsIt's very educational. It's a great book. I I've What for for the purposes of putting this in the links in our our show notes, what book is that?1:06:571 hour, 6 minutes, 57 secondsI I think it's called five dysfunctional uh traits of a a team.1:07:011 hour, 7 minutes, 1 secondThe five dysfunctions of team I might Yeah, I might get I think that's the right title.1:07:061 hour, 7 minutes, 6 secondsBut there's some themes I've really been into. One is flow. I don't know if you're I don't know if you understand flow the concept of flow but I think1:07:141 hour, 7 minutes, 14 secondsit's a fab it's a very interesting topic and it's all about how you can just focus your attention you create you have1:07:221 hour, 7 minutes, 22 secondsto have goals and other things but how you can just focus your attention and it just becomes natural that flow right and I I just find it fascinating it has so1:07:301 hour, 7 minutes, 30 secondsmany different elements uh to it you could you could be a sports star you could be a business professional you could be a writer uh you could be a1:07:371 hour, 7 minutes, 37 secondsscientist but it all applies to flow and it's it's it's it's it's been really fascinating to to study and learn about1:07:441 hour, 7 minutes, 44 secondsflow. So those are just some of the things and I try to get deep. Uh there was another thing that I was really into early this year about scaling1:07:511 hour, 7 minutes, 51 secondsbusinesses. So I read two, three, four, five books on how to scale businesses, how to think about it, how to approach1:07:581 hour, 7 minutes, 58 secondsit, what are the pitfalls. I can't give you all the books right now. I'm happy to send you a list. you know, so when I get into a subject, I go deep into it. I1:08:071 hour, 8 minutes, 7 secondstypically read, you know, half a dozen books on the on the subject. I've also been into um kind1:08:151 hour, 8 minutes, 15 secondsof how some families that have really survived generations, how they've done it.1:08:241 hour, 8 minutes, 24 secondsAnd I think the two examples I I really have been trying to study is the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers.1:08:321 hour, 8 minutes, 32 secondshow they've extended, how they've extended, and it's not just about wealth, right?1:08:361 hour, 8 minutes, 36 secondsBut how how they've kept the uh the the the family together with purpose and how they've done it over generations and impact. Incredible.1:08:451 hour, 8 minutes, 45 secondsThe impact. Yeah. It's it's incredible and they still have huge impact today.1:08:501 hour, 8 minutes, 50 secondsSo, it's things like that I try to learn from. So, that that's what I'm that's what I'm focused on today.1:08:561 hour, 8 minutes, 56 secondsIf you had um an opportunity to speak to young Doug, what would what would you what advice would you give yourself?1:09:061 hour, 9 minutes, 6 secondsI would say there's no shortcuts.1:09:091 hour, 9 minutes, 9 secondsI would say when I was younger, I was very ambitious. I still am, but uh you know, I thought it would all come fast and I was in a I was in a rush.1:09:181 hour, 9 minutes, 18 secondsBut I will say that there's no shortcuts in life. I would say that's my first comment. Um the second is that um you1:09:281 hour, 9 minutes, 28 secondsreally as an entrepreneur you're going to you're going to go through some really difficult times and those are going to be the most1:09:361 hour, 9 minutes, 36 secondsimportant times. I've gone through some really difficult times as an entrepreneur with Protos Capital and1:09:451 hour, 9 minutes, 45 secondsI've gone through it and those have been some of the most important lessons when you get through situations like that.1:09:501 hour, 9 minutes, 50 secondsUm, so that's something else I would tell myself. Um, and I would I would probably say, you know, just try to become a better person throughout.1:10:001 hour, 10 minutesAnd um, you might not need to tell your younger self that you've been doing a pretty good job.1:10:051 hour, 10 minutes, 5 secondsI I try I try. But, uh, you know, those those are probably the things. Uh, but one of the things that Rockefeller I'll just add one more thing. One of the one1:10:121 hour, 10 minutes, 12 secondsof the other things that inspired me about Rockefeller is um John D.1:10:161 hour, 10 minutes, 16 secondsRockefeller wrote a series of letters to his son uh junior I think I think it's uh 17 or1:10:261 hour, 10 minutes, 26 secondsmore letters um and these are very personal letters but every letter had a a lesson and a theme1:10:341 hour, 10 minutes, 34 secondsand it was very inspirational structure and discipline very inspirational and so I I've done the same thing with my kids and now I've started writing1:10:421 hour, 10 minutes, 42 secondsletters to my kids now you you obviously you have verbal conversations with them and you try to show them by example and other things but now I love the letter1:10:491 hour, 10 minutes, 49 secondsidea, Doug. When's the last time you got a letter from somebody? 100%. Handwritten letter from dad. Wow.1:10:561 hour, 10 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. So, the first letter was a big macro letter about where where I'm coming from and here are some big themes, what's important to me, and then1:11:061 hour, 11 minutes, 6 secondsthe subsequent letters have been about specific topics. It could be about AI, how to think about picking the right1:11:141 hour, 11 minutes, 14 secondscareer or college. It could be about why discipline is so important. Like very I go deep into those subjects, but the1:11:221 hour, 11 minutes, 22 secondsfirst one was a macro one. Now I'm getting deep on on specific topics. It's been great. How old are they?1:11:281 hour, 11 minutes, 28 secondsUh they're 16-year-old twins, born and grow. 16-year-old twins. So this is very cool.1:11:331 hour, 11 minutes, 33 secondsYeah, it's it's been one of the best things and I hope that some of the uh people in the audience will take me up on it. It's it's great. It's been great.1:11:401 hour, 11 minutes, 40 secondsSo you've also used the word uncertainty a number of times in in in context with AI in context with black swan in context1:11:481 hour, 11 minutes, 48 secondswith challenges that you have to manage through as an entrepreneur. What's your advice around uncertainty?1:11:571 hour, 11 minutes, 57 secondsWell, it's here to stay. It's the new normal. That's my first comment. Um and I would say that whatever you do, make sure you have the right people around1:12:031 hour, 12 minutes, 3 secondsthe table because true character comes out when in times of crisis. Make sure you have the right people that that have1:12:111 hour, 12 minutes, 11 secondsyour back, that are your partners. Um, I don't always get the people thing right.1:12:181 hour, 12 minutes, 18 secondsI think get it I get it right most of the time. But as long as you have the right people around you, you're going to get through it. I would say those are the two things. I know it sounds very1:12:271 hour, 12 minutes, 27 secondssoft and, you know, squishy answer, but I would say well uncertainty is uncertainty. It's uncertainty. You can't control it.1:12:341 hour, 12 minutes, 34 secondsYou don't know when it's going to come and how. I think it's the well-prepared mind, the great pattern recognizer, the um the commitment to innovation and1:12:431 hour, 12 minutes, 43 secondsthinking outside the box or at least understanding what the box is that you're in, right?1:12:481 hour, 12 minutes, 48 secondsSo that you can then make choices and uh manage through a crisis, we've called it a crisis, uncertainty, if it's the new1:12:571 hour, 12 minutes, 57 secondsnorm, it feels to me like there has to also be a certain balance. It can't be business all the time. This is the1:13:051 hour, 13 minutes, 5 secondslesson of my life that uh I haven't I don't know that I've I've perfectly learned it yet. But business dominated1:13:121 hour, 13 minutes, 12 secondsso much of my thinking and my personality and and my life, my lived experience that in um my more recent1:13:211 hour, 13 minutes, 21 secondsfocus has I brought some attention to art and I've been excited about different types of artistic expressions1:13:291 hour, 13 minutes, 29 secondsand I think also just a little bit of boredom, you know, just a little taste of I don't have to be doing something1:13:371 hour, 13 minutes, 37 secondsright every second of the day to be productive.1:13:401 hour, 13 minutes, 40 secondsI could literally just be doing nothing and let my mind rest.1:13:461 hour, 13 minutes, 46 secondsSo, I'm I'm curious about how you look at restoration because to me that's restoration and creativity. I feel like1:13:551 hour, 13 minutes, 55 secondsum the balance that I would be seeking is I love the pressures and the you know the excitement of business and I also1:14:051 hour, 14 minutes, 5 secondsfind that I'm going to be better at it if I have some art around me. How how do how do you feel about those topics?1:14:141 hour, 14 minutes, 14 secondsAbsolutely. I mean I I love I love art too. I I would say the way I handle it is um I I'm very religious about my1:14:221 hour, 14 minutes, 22 secondsworkouts. Uh, I typically get up, I mean, today it was 4:30, but typically it's around 500, 5:30. First thing I do1:14:291 hour, 14 minutes, 29 secondsis work out. Um, so that helps me set up my day, helps me think, set up my day. Um, and1:14:361 hour, 14 minutes, 36 secondsthen, um, I'll get to work and do things. But I would say what I've started to do is, uh, around1:14:441 hour, 14 minutes, 44 seconds4:30 or 5, I'll take a break from work and I'll read a book for about an hour.1:14:511 hour, 14 minutes, 51 secondsThat's how I can do a a book a week. You can't do it at night because you're too tired, I would say. So, the reading part is very important to me. Um, you know,1:15:001 hour, 15 minutesobviously I want some family time and other things. Then I usually do some work at at night. I would say I travel1:15:071 hour, 15 minutes, 7 secondsquite a bit. So, I make the best of the travel. What I what I mean by that is I'm reading1:15:141 hour, 15 minutes, 14 secondson the planes. Um, I try to experience wherever I am and and learn something new. I'm much like you. I don't mind1:15:211 hour, 15 minutes, 21 secondsbeing alone. So, I'll go sit by myself somewhere, have dinner by myself. I'm perfectly fine doing that. I don't need people around me all the time. So,1:15:301 hour, 15 minutes, 30 secondsthat's a way for me to kind of catch my breath. I would say that's very important. I would say the other thing beyond reading, art, all the things everybody else likes is um you know, I'm1:15:391 hour, 15 minutes, 39 secondstrying to take as many cool trips with my family as possible.1:15:441 hour, 15 minutes, 44 secondsAnd what's a cool trip? So, uh, maybe I shouldn't be talking about this here, but, uh, so we're going to, one of my1:15:511 hour, 15 minutes, 51 secondsbucket list items was to go to F1 F1 race. Formula 1 race.1:15:561 hour, 15 minutes, 56 secondsFormula 1 race, but I'm going to do it the right way and do do it in Monaco.1:16:001 hour, 16 minutesSo, we're going to Monaco in June for the Formula One race. So, that's that's my definition of of a cool trip.1:16:081 hour, 16 minutes, 8 secondsThe pinnacle of Formula One racing, right?1:16:111 hour, 16 minutes, 11 secondsThat's spectacular. I I got a I had a chance to play with a bunch of drivers.1:16:161 hour, 16 minutes, 16 secondsuh in the indie circuit um Joseph New Garden and other friends um that that1:16:241 hour, 16 minutes, 24 secondswere ultra competitive athletes and driving those cars. Um what an exciting I did this is it the sound of the1:16:321 hour, 16 minutes, 32 secondsengines? Is it the is it the environment? What is it that gets you going? Because for me it's it's just being anywhere near uh the entire ecosystem of a race.1:16:421 hour, 16 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. No, I'm I'm into that. But it's just it's just that environment being in Monaco. It's a special place, right?1:16:491 hour, 16 minutes, 49 secondsIt's a special place to have the F1 race. Just being in that environment. That's what I want to experience.1:16:541 hour, 16 minutes, 54 secondsBeyond hearing the noise and the fans and everything else. Uh it's just being in that environment. That's what I want to experience. And I'm going to do that with my family.1:17:021 hour, 17 minutes, 2 secondsSo, what's the question that you thought I would ask that I didn't and how I'd like to be able to have an opportunity to make up for that? Um,1:17:121 hour, 17 minutes, 12 secondsI mean you you were pretty thoughtful about your questions and obviously I've read some of them in advance.1:17:181 hour, 17 minutes, 18 secondsI I I I guess you know where where do you go from here?1:17:251 hour, 17 minutes, 25 secondsWhere do you see yourself in 5 10 years? Maybe that's the other only other question I could think of. Um1:17:331 hour, 17 minutes, 33 secondsyeah maybe because you are young and you are ambitious and you are an entrepreneur and you are creating value for your1:17:411 hour, 17 minutes, 41 secondscommunity. Where do you see yourself in five maybe 10 years?1:17:441 hour, 17 minutes, 44 secondsWell I designed this uh life plan last year but um I I love what I do. Um I I absolutely love what I do. I'm very1:17:521 hour, 17 minutes, 52 secondsfortunate to you know do something that I love. So I have no visions of retiring first of all. Um, I want to do this well1:18:011 hour, 18 minutes, 1 secondinto my 80s. Um, and so I want to continue to build protos1:18:081 hour, 18 minutes, 8 secondsand build this holding company and help the community as we dis we discussed earlier. So I want to do all these things and I think I have a long runway1:18:161 hour, 18 minutes, 16 secondsto do that and a lot of energy and hopefully all the resources I could bring to the table. Um, beyond that, I'm just excited to continue to learn. Mhm.1:18:271 hour, 18 minutes, 27 secondsI you know I I've told my kids I wish I could live another 50 hundred years because I am so excited to learn every day.1:18:351 hour, 18 minutes, 35 secondsI just there's not enough time. I just wish I had more time because I just want to keep learning.1:18:431 hour, 18 minutes, 43 secondsIf you were to ask me what's my favorite activity, it's just learning. It's learning from this podcast. It's learning from, you know, uh any number1:18:501 hour, 18 minutes, 50 secondsof situations that we're in. I just love learning.1:18:531 hour, 18 minutes, 53 secondsI love the idea of a life plan. I honestly don't hear that very often. Uh there's people who have a life coach or1:19:021 hour, 19 minutes, 2 secondsthey've got, you know, there's there's people who are are living a life plan, but I wonder what does your life plan look like? Did it take a structure? Did1:19:111 hour, 19 minutes, 11 secondsit take a introspection? H how did you arrive at something even this recently?1:19:161 hour, 19 minutes, 16 secondsYou know, I I kind of looked at my health. Uh you have to look at your health. You have to look at sort of what you want to accomplish. I have some big1:19:251 hour, 19 minutes, 25 secondsgoals most of it most of which is around legacy. Um and you need time to build1:19:321 hour, 19 minutes, 32 secondslegacy. You can't do that in a year. So you need to have enough time. So I kind of coupled the goals with how much time1:19:411 hour, 19 minutes, 41 secondsand I made sure I had sufficient time which is you know last year was 30 more years and then I had to couple that with1:19:491 hour, 19 minutes, 49 secondsI got to make sure I have the wherewithal in terms of my mind and my body to be able to sustain that. So, I've changed1:19:581 hour, 19 minutes, 58 secondsmy life to make sure that I can sustain that, right? Doing all the things I need to do now to be proactive to make sure I1:20:041 hour, 20 minutes, 4 secondscan meet those goals, the life plan.1:20:081 hour, 20 minutes, 8 secondsSo, it's kind of like a holistic thing that, you know, I kind of put together over the last year or so.1:20:141 hour, 20 minutes, 14 secondsWell, on that note, I would say that um we don't have an unlimited amount of time for our podcast and our1:20:221 hour, 20 minutes, 22 secondsconversation, but we've spent really high quality time getting to this point.1:20:281 hour, 20 minutes, 28 secondsAnd I just wanted to express my appreciation. You are so prepared and so complete with uh your approach that I1:20:371 hour, 20 minutes, 37 secondsfeel like um it was a gift to me of your time and I'm I'm grateful for that. Thank you, Doug. Thank you very much for having me. Pleasure.1:20:451 hour, 20 minutes, 45 secondsHey, thanks for listening to the Parallel Entrepreneur and thank you to our sponsors, partners, and the amazing team behind the scenes who help make1:20:541 hour, 20 minutes, 54 secondsthese conversations possible. If today's episode sparked something for you, be sure to follow, subscribe, and please share it.1:21:031 hour, 21 minutes, 3 secondsLearn about our growing community at parallelontrepreneur.com, including details on our mastermind and companion programs designed to help you1:21:111 hour, 21 minutes, 11 secondsalign, grow, and thrive across multiple ventures. And of course, gratitude to every visionary guest who trusts us to1:21:201 hour, 21 minutes, 20 secondsshare their story. Until next time, keep building in parallel.