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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Speaker 3: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anja, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Welcome back to Honest Money.
Joining me today is one of my
favourite Australian Bitcoiners, K3tan.
K3tan, welcome.
K3nan: Thank you for having me, Anja.
Anja: Yay.
Um, it's always so funny whenever I
have a Bitcoin or on that I know in
real life I always say, yay, I notice
that it's like a dead, a wedge go.
Yay, a friend.
Yes.
Um, yeah, so Katan is a privacy expert.
In addition to obviously being
a Bitcoin, he owns Ministry of
Nodes, which is a great resource.
And maybe let's start there.
Katan, like, tell us how this came about.
How did you come to create
Ministry of Nodes and what is it?
K3nan: Yeah, so Ministry of Nodes is
essentially an educational initiative.
Um, I have a very good friend
by the name of Stephan Livera.
He's also a podcaster.
Um, and we kind of, uh, I guess banded
together and said, Hey, we want to improve
the educational landscape of Bitcoin.
Um, and so we kind of just got
together and created Ministry of Nodes.
I was listening to Ministry of Sounds at
the time, so I thought, you know what,
how about Ministry of Nodes as the name?
And we started to.
You know, create content around self
custody, running a node, uh, and all
around becoming a, um, first class
Bitcoin citizen, uh, so to speak.
And so we just put that together
and we ran workshops at the start.
And then, um, we kind of, uh,
pivoted to more the YouTube, um.
You know, tutorials, um, and then
one-on-one consult consultations.
Stefan's obviously, uh, moved out
of Australia, um, and he's no longer
part of Ministry of Nodes anymore.
Um, and so it's just me
running, uh, this solo.
Anja: Lovely, lovely.
So let's again start maybe
with what's important.
Why is it important to run a node and why
is this something that, you know, nubes
who are into Bitcoin should consider?
K3nan: Yeah, so I think if you're new
to Bitcoin, the first thing I think that
you should be doing is self custody.
Um, this is, uh, running a node is a
bit more further down the rabbit hole.
Um, but I do think that it
is important, uh, to do.
Um, firstly, uh, the main reason that
you should be running a Bitcoin node
is to independently verify, uh, your.
Uh, balances and incoming
transactions on the Bitcoin network.
You're not relying on a trusted
third party who can then,
you know, manipulate you.
Um, or feed you fake information
or put you on a blockchain that
has 25 million coins when we, we
all agreed to 21 million coins.
Um, those sorts of things.
The next reason that you would
want to run a Bitcoin node is,
uh, or why it's important to do
so, is so that you can transact.
Uh, or broadcast your
transactions without censorship.
So if you're using somebody else's
node to broadcast those transactions,
well, they can cut you off.
Um, they can say, okay, well this node
is only available between the hours of
nine, nine to five, Monday to Friday.
Um, and they can really just
blocked, um, payments going out,
um, to the rest of the network.
So, in that regard, running your own
Bitcoin node is like your gateway, your
personal gateway to plug in and, and,
and transact on the Bitcoin network.
And then the, I guess another thing from
that is a, I guess it's important to run
a Bitcoin node from a privacy perspective.
Um.
When you query somebody else's
node with your balances, um,
and, and, and your, your wallet,
uh, that is giving information
away, uh, to another third party.
Um, and combining that with your IP
address and other information, they
may be able to see exactly how much
you own, what you're spending, how
much you earn, those sorts of things.
So you wanna keep that private,
um, and that that can be done
through running a Bitcoin note.
Um, and then the final thing, I guess,
is to just strengthen the network, um,
for, for, for running a Bitcoin note.
Um, and, and what that means is you,
yourself are now self-sovereign.
Um, so you're not relying on
trusted third parties that
builds in resiliency and then.
You are also relaying blocks to other
nodes that you are connected to as well.
So you're somewhat helping out, um,
with the distribution of the blocks
going out, uh, throughout the, the o
over the internet, um, on the network.
So those are, I guess, the
key reasons as to why it's
important to run a Bitcoin node.
I'd strongly encourage people to do so.
Um, but if you're still.
I guess down the part of your, your path
of, um, you know, having your coins on the
exchange, I think that's something that
needs to be solved before you go down the
rabbit hole of running a Bitcoin node.
I think you should be, um, you know, uh,
ideally you can do both, um, at one go.
Um, but.
Uh, realistically what tends to
happen is most people take custody
of their own keys first and then
consider running a Bitcoin node.
Um, and there's a plethora of ways to
do that, um, which I'm, I'm, you know,
I'm happy to get into if you want.
Anja: Yeah, I, I didn't know.
So this for me is like the next
natural step in my evolution.
I do have a note.
I haven't set it up yet,
which is so embarrassing.
Um, my dad has, um, but I, I didn't
know the part that you said that they
can actually, like, node operators can
restrict the time that they operate
on and the payments and all of that.
Is there historical examples
where that has been done?
That you know
K3nan: of?
No, typically, no.
That, that, that's, and I'm not
saying, suggesting that that
is what's happening right now.
What I am suggesting though is that
if you are relying on a trusted third
party, you are now at the, at the whim
of them, um, rather than yourself.
So if you do need to transact at
three o'clock in the morning, then
you know it will be available, and I'm
sure other people's notes are gonna
be available at the time as well.
Um, but uh, if you want to go
down that path of having your own
gateway into the Bitcoin network.
Then running a Bitcoin node
is the only way to do that.
Um, so yeah, otherwise you are, you
are at the, you know, um, mercy or the
good graces of whoever you, you choose
to, to, to, to run your node for you.
Anja: Yeah.
And is this something like, do you
find that with people who have started
writing their own node for the first
time, is the feedback, um, that it's
easier than they anticipated, or
is it harder than they anticipated?
What's the usual feedback?
K3nan: Yeah, look, it, it
really just depends on which,
I guess, avenue you go down.
If you have, for example, like a, you
know, a plug and play device, um, that
you can purchase like a start nine
or an umbrella or something like that
with some instructions that can get
you going, most people tend to have
a fairly decent experience with that.
Um, but if you decide to DIY it.
Uh, well then, you know, collect all
the parts together and, and do it
yourself, which is more than reasonable
to do and, and possible to do.
In fact, my, my tutorials online
actually teach you how to do that, but.
That's where you're gonna, you
know, there, there's a bit of a
steeper learning curve to that.
Um, there's gonna be, you know, a little
bit more, uh, frustration I guess,
um, as you learn and as you progress.
But the plug and play stuff
is, is pretty good these days.
Um, and, and yeah, you can easily hook
your wallet up to that Bitcoin node.
And that's the important thing.
It's not just about running a node,
it's also hooking your wallet up to
that Bitcoin node so that you can.
You know, verify the transactions
using that node, um, and not somebody
else's, but also broadcasting your
transactions through that node so
that you're not using somebody else's.
So it's really important that your
wallet is also hooked up to your
node, so there's no point in just,
you know, sitting, letting it sit
there, um, and, and turning it on
and, you know, downloading the blocks.
Um, that's of very little use.
Uh, what, what really is of use to
you personally is actually hooking
that wallet up to, um, your own node.
That's the thing that I,
I, I'd stress the most.
Um, and in terms of feedback, people are
just, you know, I guess, uh, yeah, they, a
range of issues come up, um, all the time.
Uh, but generally speaking, those plug
and play is, is, is very, very, um, you
know, Schick now and they've got it to a
stage where it's very, very easy to do.
Anja: Yeah.
And do you have an opinion on
whether people should start out by
running a full node or a prune node?
K3nan: Um, I, I, I think you should
just go straight with a full node.
Um, I think it's going to be easier for
you, uh, in, in the, in the long run.
Um, prune nodes are great for
a specific circumstance, but,
um, I, I, I do think that most
people should just run a full, um.
You know, full Bitcoin node, um, without
the pruning, it's, it's, it's easier.
It's, it's cleaner.
Um, and you can explore the
blockchain, um, as you wish.
Um, you know, and, uh, it, it's
just, yeah, there's a little bit
more, um, I guess, resource required
in terms of hard drive space.
But you know, that's, that's one of
the trade offs of Bitcoin is, you know,
you you have to use some sort of your
own hardware or, or you're setting
up your own infrastructure, really.
Uh, and this is part of setting up your
own banking infrastructure and look
it, whilst the costs are increasing in
terms of SSDs and RAM in 2026, um, it
is, it, it is still relatively cheap.
Um, if you're thinking about
this from a long-term savings.
Plan, if you were to, for example,
uh, on the, on the flip side,
compare the costs of, for example, a
property or an investment property.
Um, running a Bitcoin node and
setting up your own infrastructure
around Bitcoin is much, much, much
cheaper than an investment property.
Um, or, you know, having to pick
stocks and that sort of stuff.
Uh, look, it's up to you.
Um, how, how you, you know.
Want to, I guess, um, run this
node, but I, I, I, I do think that
you should, and a full node is
probably where you should start.
And if you think that, you know,
a pruned node might be better for
you, then go down that path as well.
Anja: Interesting.
And so if someone is already running
a node and they're way ahead of me and
they're already doing it, what would
the next natural progression be like?
What's the next step in that journey
in terms of more advanced usage?
K3nan: Well, it, it, it really is, I
guess, a choose your own adventure.
Um, once you've set up that node,
you can then move into, um, all
the other features like lightning.
Um, you can do, uh.
Uh, coin joins, um, you can set up your
own BTC pay server so people can pay you.
Um, uh, yeah, there's a whole raft of
things that you can look into, um, once
you've got that Bitcoin note down, um,
and, and, and you can sort of start
building and there's applications
that are available on top of that.
Um, and so yeah, that would
probably be the next rabbit hole.
I guess you could go down,
um, and then yeah, like, but.
Look, once you've held, hold your
own keys and you run your own node,
I would consider you to be somewhat
of a first class citizen, meaning.
You don't have to do all these
extra things, just that in itself
makes you very, very self-sovereign.
You can pack up and leave at any time.
You can take your things with you and,
and move to different locations and
you'll still have money, um, available
to you no matter where you are.
Um, and I think that's a huge,
um, advantage and a huge.
Um, you know, gift to humanity because
nowhere in the world have we been able to
do that, or, or, or, and this is, this is
one of the best, um, aspects of Bitcoin.
And I think, I think more and more
people need to find out about just
those two things rather than, you
know, just keep going down that rabbit
hole, which obviously you can do.
Um, but I think more and more people
need to sort of wake up to this idea
that, you know, holding your own keys
and running your own node is going
to give you a lot of sovereignty.
Speaker: Quick one for the Aussies
listening hard block is offering
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And if you're with another
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Are they Australia's longest
running Bitcoin only exchange?
Because if not, maybe it's time to switch.
Head to hard block.com au slash
join slash Honest Money and
start stacking stats today.
Anja: Yeah, I love that.
And one of my favorite stories to tell
to beginners when I'm like hosting,
um, meetups is basically the, the
history of the Cypher Punks and why,
you know, why they exist in the first
place, why this movement exists, and.
This also plays very nicely
into the privacy element.
Unfortunately, we live in the world
where some people treat privacy as
a crime instead of a human right.
And the distinction I like to draw
is between privacy and secrecy.
They're very, very distinct.
Secrecy is something you
don't want anyone to know.
Privacy, something you
wanna be selective about.
So, um, privacy is not a crime and no.
Yeah.
Um, there's so many aspects I wanna
get into, but like, what I'm curious
to know in your journey as well, Katan,
did you start out through Bitcoin or
did you start out through privacy?
What was the first thing
that actually drew you in?
K3nan: Um, so what, I guess, um,
Stefan and I are high school friends.
Um, and so we went to university together
as well, and he kept telling me how, you
know, central banking is a scam and, um.
You know that, that, you know, the,
the money's fake and it's just,
you know, it's a complete wrought.
Um, and the government's a wrought.
Everything's a wrought.
Okay.
That's, that's well and good, Stefan.
Thank you.
Uh, but do you have
any proposed solutions?
And at that time at university, um,
he, he, he couldn't, he couldn't
give me a, a, a, a solution.
And then one day in 2013, he
says, Hey, here's a solution.
Maybe consider, uh, having a read of this.
And he sends me to the white paper,
he sends me to the Reddit forums.
Um, and I just go down this huge
rabbit hole, um, and, and, and this
fire hose of information trying to
weed out what's fact from fiction.
And I was just absolutely
gobsmacked at what's going on here.
Because, um, I, I, I saw immediately
that Bitcoin was like torrenting and I
had been part of the whole Torrenting
journey 'cause you know, I saw Napster
get raided, then I saw Kaza get raided.
Then I saw lime wire get raided.
And so all of these centralized
applications got raided.
But the thing that kind of
kept going was bit torrent and
everyone was torrenting things.
And so I think, um, from there I realized,
hey, we are now Torrenting money.
I don't think this can be stopped.
And so that was kind of my angle into this
and, and I sort of, you know, yeah, I, I,
I really liked it in, in that, okay, well,
we've distributed the files, IE we've
distributed the nodes and the blockchain,
and I don't think that this is, this
is going to be tough to be shut down.
And so that's when I sort of
started getting more and more.
Into it.
Um, so it wasn't really from a
privacy angle, it was probably
more from, uh, I guess me being
a pirate back in high school.
Um, yeah, that's kind of
what got me over the line.
Anja: Love this.
I love this journey.
And tell me you're a millennial
without telling me you're a millennial.
Um, like some of those brands
you're mentioning is just.
Bringing back the good old days.
K3nan: Yep, yep.
There's heaps of brands out there.
Like Winamp was another one.
It's not exactly like, you
know, but it was fantastic.
Um, there's, yeah.
You know, there was heaps of cool stuff
that was made in, yeah, back in the day.
Anja: But it's so wild to me
that you started out by reading
the Bitcoin White paper.
I remember reading it and
not understanding it at all.
The first time I read it.
Now I can actually explain it, but
it took to read like several books in
order for me to understand what it.
Says in it.
Um, I love how you just started with
the white paper and there wasn't that
much information or education going
around, so you had to go through
obscure Reddit forums and speak to the
most, I guess, niche part of society.
I mean, we're still niche, but
that was like next level niche.
And I love, um, that Stefan just has
this, um, Austrian economics lens.
Is, has, is this something he
was also interested in before
ever getting into Bitcoin?
K3nan: Yeah, so Stefan was a libertarian
by, I think, I don't know, 19.
Um.
It was, well, well before his time,
and he would talk about gun rights and,
you know, and we would all just laugh
at him thinking, you know, whatever.
Like, this guy's a lunatic.
Um, and yeah, like he, he, he was,
he was, well, well before his time,
um, from just a, I guess a principle
and philosophical perspective, but he
was never able to articulate, okay,
what's your solution to these problems?
What, what, what can we
actually do about this.
And one of his gripes was always
central banking, which we all
learn about in, in economics.
Um, and we did a commerce degree together.
So it was just being, you know,
sey and economics was just getting
rammed down our throats and he was
never able to really articulate.
A, a proposed solution or a country
that did even, you know, didn't
have this type of, you know, central
banking Keynesian economics lens.
Um, and so yeah, he, it, it
kind of just fell flat and then,
you know, uh, he found Bitcoin.
He obviously, you know, said, Hey, look,
this is potentially a solution that you,
you know, you, you might be interested in.
And then I just went down
the rabbit hole from there.
Anja: I love that.
Um.
And this might be a highly speculative
question, but do you believe that, um,
as a society, as what the world, we are
heading towards a decentralization, like
almost like a center of decentralization
with the internet and bitcoin,
like all these protocols coming in?
Or is that just my wishful thinking?
K3nan: Look, in many ways things are
being decentralized, but in, in, in
most aspects, unfortunately, um, it
is becoming, uh, more centralized
in my opinion at this point in time.
Now, I don't know when we start to,
you know, uh, swing the other way, but
I fear like our food systems, um, our,
uh, you know, our just ways of life are
becoming more and more controlled by.
One or two entities.
Um, and I don't see that heading in
a, uh, look, there are, uh, you know,
niche products out there, um, that
are getting, gaining some traction.
Um, but yeah, I think, you know,
our, most of the things, uh,
like even just in technology, um.
Things are heading in a very, very
centralized direction, um, specifically
around ai, um, you know, robotics, all
that sort of stuff is, is it looks like
what I'm, what I'm seeing is just going
to be, you know, handled by one or two
key players and anything that pops up
really just gets bought out straight away.
Um, and, and, and then just merged
into, you know, the, the, the
big clog, uh, or, or the big cog.
Um, yeah, so I, I, I, I'm not.
Uh, yeah, very, um, bullish on
decentralization at the moment, as much as
I understand and care for the need of it.
Um, but that's unfortunately
the world we live in.
I'm sorry to say.
Anja: No, I mean, I, I can, I
can definitely see that, um.
I think this is another thing that has
really helped me, you know, through
understanding Bitcoin, looking at the
long-term trends and where we're headed
over the, like, the past century.
And yeah, I can definitely see that,
um, especially in Australia with, you
know, the implementation or the push
for digital id and then CBDC slowly
creeping in first they're being pitched
as, you know, being, um, wholesale only.
But you know, considering that all
these different countries globally
are pushing for retail CBDC, it's
not absurd to assume that that's
going to come to Australia as well.
Um, so yeah, I think.
I don't know what to say on that.
It's just depressing
to, to, to think about
K3nan: it is depressing.
Um, but we do have tools out
there if you search for them, um,
to, to, to, you know, bring that
power back to the people, I guess.
Uh, Bitcoin is definitely one of them.
Another one that I really, really enjoy,
um, is self-hosting and, um, home labing.
Which is taking, um, your data, um, and,
and, and putting it on your own computers
rather than on the cloud, um, which is
literally just somebody else's computer.
Um, and, you know, these sorts of
things help to reduce the reliance
on big tech for you, um, and help
you stay a little bit more private.
Um, and, and I, I do think there's
technologies out there that are, you know.
Shifting the needle, Nostr is helping.
Um, you know, there are things
that are slowly starting to
gain more and more traction.
So there is room for hope.
Uh, it's not just do, it's
not doom and gloom just yet.
Um, but yeah, if you seek out, um,
you know, privacy, there are pretty
good tools out there to, to do so.
Anja: It's worth mentioning that
you'll be coming to Byron be bash.
Um.
Which is held on 15th to 17th of
May this year, and you've got a half
day privacy workshop on the 15th,
which is a Friday, I believe that's
gonna be really, really awesome.
I know Northern Rivers is a
very freedom minded community.
Um, and oh, yes, that's the
point I was going to make.
Just about what it means to be human.
This is kind of what I'm exploring
at the moment, and I feel like we are
going further and further and further
away from what it means to be human.
That yeah, we're being
productized, if that's even a word.
Um, our data's being sold,
our privacy's being sold.
Um, we, yeah, we're products.
We're not even human anymore, so.
Uh, there was something that you've
shared in previous Bush bashes, which
is like a checklist, and I'm slowly
working my way down that, but I'm
so embarrassed to say that I used
to be really, really bad with this.
Even just doing one thing, which
is getting a professional password
manager that's very secure, and
having unique passwords for everything
has been a complete game changer
for me, and I can't believe that
this is something I used to risk.
Now, in hindsight, um, I
also stopped using Microsoft.
K3nan: Fantastic.
Anja: Do you wanna just quickly tell
the listeners why that is important?
K3nan: Yeah, look, I think, um, there
are Microsoft in particular or just
big tech in general, um, there's this
sort of push to sort of invade your
privacy and one of the things that
Microsoft did just recently was enabled
this function called Microsoft Recall.
Whereby they would take screenshots
at period periodic times of
your computer, um, and then send
them off to Microsoft servers.
Um, now this is a huge, uh,
privacy, um, and security risk.
And so I think they've, that they
have definitely walked that back.
But they said that, you know, we want
to use this for, you know, training
our models, our AI models and LLMs,
um, to be able to, to, to do this.
Um, and so that's why they've.
Gone ahead and done it.
Now, the fact that they even
thought that this was a good idea
is just alarm bells all round.
Um, and so I think, you know.
We should be moving away from,
you know, Microsoft products.
Um, and, you know, uh, these big
tech companies, Google, um, Facebook
that really just, you know, you
have a lot of data to protect here.
You've got your contacts,
you've got your calendar.
So that's gonna mean where you're
gonna be, who you're gonna be with.
Um.
You, they've got, you know,
access to your emails.
So if you've booked a flight or you've
booked some accommodation, or you've
paid your school fees, um, they know
a lot about you just by having your
Google account, your GPS data, they've
got a track of, you know, where you've
been, when, what time of the day.
Um.
Photos they've got, um, of
you and your children, um,
important documents, tax returns.
They know how much you earn.
Uh, they've got your search history,
um, they've got your IP address.
Uh, they've got potentially even
identity information, scans of
passports, birth certificates, um,
you know, who like, who knows what
you've uploaded to, to your cloud.
Um, and so with all of this information.
You can really, really put
the screws on somebody.
Um, and, and you're just giving
that away for free in one nice,
neat bow, uh, on, on Google server.
It, it just, it, it's a no brainer
to start moving away from, you
know, these centralized services.
Microsoft, Google.
Um.
To some extent, even Apple, because
they're closed source, uh, you can't
really verify what they're doing.
Um, and so, you know, look, whilst Apple,
I guess, you know, that they make, they,
they make the best convenient products
on the market, and I'm not gonna lie,
they have billions of dollars worth
of, you know, um, capital and they have
the best engineers working for them.
So they're obviously going to make the
best products, but at the same time.
What are they doing with that data?
Can we ve verify that that's
what they're only doing?
And it, it, it's just very difficult
to make that judgment call.
Um, and so this is why I think
digital security privacy sort
of comes, or, or matters.
And that's what I'll be talking
about at the Bush Bash in Byron.
Um, where, you know, I, I, I'll be.
You, you know, demonstrating some of
the, um, the stories that have gone
down, um, uh, you know, with, with
these big tech companies and, and
what they're doing behind the scenes.
Um, I'll just give one in one example.
There was this guy who took a photo
for a doctor of his child's groin area.
No.
And it was an innocent photo.
It got backed up to Google's cloud
and uh, they, they, they scanned
that, oh, Google scanned it.
They shut his account down.
That's 10 to 15 years worth of
photos, emails, everything gone.
And on top of that, they,
um, notified the police.
So the police came knocking on his door.
Um, so.
All of this over just, you know, a
photo that was innocently for a doctor,
uh, to have a look at a particular
rash that was in a groin area of
a child, uh, that was considered,
you know, um, abusive material.
And then he had his, you, uh, his,
his account completely locked out.
Um, and, you know, these,
these stories do occur.
I'm not suggesting, you know,
look with these stories as well.
I would think you, you don't have to
sort of, I guess, decipher whether
this is a true or fictional story.
The, the question that really needs
to be asked is, can this happen?
Can Google lock me out of my account
one day for whatever arbitrary reason?
And I've lost all of that data of, you
know, 10, 15, 20 years worth of history.
And that's something that you need
to protect and make sure that you
sort of, um, have a backup plan in
the event that that does eventuate.
Um, so th those are the types of topics
that I'll be talking about and sharing.
Um, a and also providing
solutions around how to do this.
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Anja: Yeah, my best friend, she's very
privacy, um, minded, even though she's
never kind of been a very technical
person, but she's, she works, um, as
a psychologist for the Department of
Corrective Services or well used to,
um, I. And she's just always refused to
post any pictures of her kids online.
Um, particularly 'cause she's come
across some very grim statistics of
how those pictures are used, even if,
you know the child is fully clothed.
So that's just really, really scary
to think what kind of a world we
live in and how, um, we take, tend
to take a lot of things for granted
and assume, you know, that we're
safe out there when really we're not.
Um.
But yeah, in terms of like what would
the most basic steps a person could
do to start separating themselves from
just being treated like a product, a
tool for advertising, a tool for, you
know, large language models, like what
can we slowly start doing like today?
Um.
K3nan: Okay, so there's, I have
a checklist on my website, um,
K three TA n.com, which you
obviously alluded to, um, earlier.
Um, now that checklist kind of
goes through some basic things
that you can do to improve your
privacy when you're online.
Some will take five minutes, some are
gonna, unfortunately take you five years.
De tangly or untangling from the Google
Web is not a very, uh, quick process.
It's not going to be a five minute job
that might even take you five years to do.
But, um, some of the things that you can
do, for example, is here in Australia.
Um, your internet service provider, um,
has this obligation to the government
to collect da, um, metadata on your
account, uh, for up to two years.
And what that metadata is, is
loosely defined, but we can mean,
we can basically mean it to mean
what websites you go to the link.
Okay.
And that is now recorded on your
account for up to two years.
If you use their DNS server, um, so.
The way that you would, um, bypass
that is a quick, um, setting in your
router to, instead of the internet
service provider's, DNS server, you
would use, um, a a, an alternative,
a uh, one is called Quad nine.
So instead of, you know, um, using
the, the ISPs uh, IP address there for
their DNS you would use 9.9 0.9 0.9.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
That will open up the internet for
you where there are no logs that are
able to be kept, but also, um, there,
uh, by your internet service provider.
Um, but also it, it bypasses
any censorship, um, that
the Australian government.
Um, puts on, um, or, or
mandates, ISPs, uh, put on, um,
on your internet connection.
So it's a very, very quick fix
that you can just route around.
So that's one example of a
five minute thing that you can
do to improve your privacy.
Couple that with a VPN, again, another
five minute thing that you can do to
install A VPN, um, I would recommend
something like IVPN, Malva, uh, proton,
um, th these are, you know, well
reputable, um, VPN companies and you
can potentially just download their
app, pay the subscription, and you get
a better freer, um, internet experience.
Um.
And so yeah, that's some
basic things that you can do.
Um, and like you said earlier, setting
up a password manager I think is probably
one of the best things that you should be,
or, or people should be doing rather than
typing in, um, passwords into websites.
Um, because you might click a, a link.
And it will, you know, look
like, you know, the Australian,
you know, myGov website.
But in fact what you've done is
you've just put in your username
and password into a portal.
Um, uh, that is not exactly, um,
the official government's website
when you need to access it.
Or any other, you know, website
that you need to access.
And so they can, you know, take your
login credentials and log in that way.
And then if you're using the same
password, they'll check, okay, well let's,
let's try, if that same password goes to
his Google account, or let's go see what's
going on with their Facebook account.
And so they'll use that password.
And if you've continuously used the
same password once, yeah, it, it, it
becomes very, very, um, yeah, it, it's
not gonna be a, a good outcome for you.
Um, and so that's why I recommend
using a password manager.
Um, so those are, you know, quick
fixes that you can do, uh, to, to
just, you know, improve your privacy,
improve your security as well.
Anja: Yep.
And I assume you don't mean a, like
a password manager that's already
available in Google or Microsoft that,
you know, comes up with a prompt saying,
do you wanna say it, this password?
K3nan: No, no, no.
Um, I, I recommend Bit Warden.
I really like, um, what they're doing.
Uh, it's open source, it's a really good
password manager, and it's well vetted.
It's got security audits,
all that sort of stuff.
It's, it's, it's very, very
good and I would recommend that.
And, and there are ways
which I'll show you.
Again, I'll demonstrate all of this, um,
in, in, in the workshop that I'm, I'm,
I'm hosting about how you can quickly
just add that into your browser and then
you'll be able to add that onto your phone
as well and quickly be able to sort of
push up your usernames and passwords and
enter them into websites, um, accordingly.
So it's, it's all very Yeah.
It, it, it is.
Yeah.
I, I would recommend.
You know, um, using a separate password
manager to the one that's in your browser.
Anja: Yeah.
And just going back to what you said
about the internet service providers,
do you know whether the data that's
meant to be kept for two years is
shared with the government or is
it more on a case by case basis?
If they suspect you of doing
something wrong, then they're
going to request that data?
Or is it just kind of like used
to funnel the surveillance?
K3nan: That that we don't actually know,
but I assume, and what they say is that
it will be used in the event of something.
If you've done something, then
they can look up your search
history if they wanted to.
Um, now A VPN and a separate
DNS would bypass all of that.
So you wouldn't really see much if,
if someone was to request, or, or,
or if a government department was
to request for that information.
Um, but they are required to,
I think just keep the logs.
Um, uh, for up to two years.
That's what ISPs are mandated to do,
and I don't think they're mandated to
send it periodically to the government.
Um, not yet anyway.
And yeah, that's what I, that's
my understanding as of now.
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Anja: Yeah.
And do you think we in Australia,
headed in the direction where
VPNs are going to be banned?
K3nan: I don't think
they're gonna be banned.
Um, I think what will happen is they
will, they will force VPN companies
to, uh, KYC, um, before you buy.
So at that point, um, I think
that the, the, yeah, exactly.
So how they enforce that again,
once, you know, like how do
they go about enforcing that?
That's up for, you know, debate and.
But I, I think where, like, I think
in the UK they're already looking at
that, um, whereby they're considering
putting a, a, an ID check before you
can even buy A VPN, um, in the uk.
So yeah, look, they're
coming after the tools.
They don't like them obviously,
um, and they're coming after them.
And so we just need to
keep routing around it.
Um, maybe, maybe tour becomes the
next, you know, uh, uh, thing.
Anja: Well, that's the thing, it
kind of almost feels like a fruitless
endeavor because I, I guess people
who have the skillset will always
evolve it, um, for this very reason.
They wanna protect privacy, they wanna
protect what it means to be human.
They wanna, you know,
preserve some dignity.
Um, so yeah, it's, it's just
wild what's happening out there.
And it will be interesting to
see, like, there's already a
part of me that can't believe.
That everything that's happening
in our lifetime is happening.
Like what is going on with
the world right now, Katar?
K3nan: Yeah.
Look, I, I, I don't have the, um, exact,
uh, picture or the exact, I guess,
um, solutions either, uh, but it's not
headed in the direction that you would
see for human flourishing to advance.
Um, I just, I don't see that, um, from,
you know, I, I think we're very, very
much coasting along, um, rather than,
you know, but there are certain segments
where we are, you know, advancing and
pushing and they're just ending up,
you know, destroying humanity as well.
So I look.
I just, I, I don't have all the
solutions unfortunately, and
there's a lot of big problems.
Um, the only ones that I sort of fix or,
or fixate on is really just, um, bitcoin,
self-hosting things within my own control
as a individual of how I can sort of
remove myself from this, this, this clown
world that we're seeing at the moment.
Anja: Yeah.
I love that.
Well, let's, you know, head towards
something a little bit more positive.
I'd love to hear the story.
I've already heard the story, but I
want my listeners to hear, um, how
you've managed to sort of influence
your colleagues that used to work with,
to start, you know, thinking about
Bitcoin and privacy a little bit more.
Um, yeah, tell me about
K3nan: Yeah, look, I, I mean, look.
Uh, I, I've always been
obsessed about Bitcoin.
Um, ever since I guess 2013, I
was very, very much obsessed.
I was screaming it off the rooftops
for a very, very long time.
Um, and also whilst I was sort
of, you know, working, um, in
the, in the corporate sphere.
Um, I would, I would just, you know,
drop hints and then those hints would
become, you know, heated conversations.
Um, and yeah, you know, look, I, I
think it became to a point where, um,
yeah, I, I, I think they all kind of
understood what Bitcoin represented,
um, and what it, what it does and why
it's required and why it's needed.
Um, and on, on my farewell gift, when
I sort of eventually resigned from that
position, um, they kind of just gave me.
A, um, a, a, you know,
a very, very nice card.
Um, but also some t-shirts that said, I
hate to say I told you so, but I told you
so, um, uh, with a big Bitcoin logo on it.
Um, so I, I received some very, very
good, um, merchandise from them.
Um, you know, and, and also
like when, when I had my child.
Um, they gave me a dummy and the dummy
had a Bitcoin logo on it as well.
Excellent.
And so, you know, towards the end,
you know, that they kind of really,
really, um, were very, very, uh,
they, they understood the importance
of Bitcoin and why, um, you know, uh,
why it's a tool for freedom, I guess.
Anja: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
This is, I love sharing stories like
this on my podcast because this is
what I find very inspiring, like.
There's still very few of us in Australia
that really care about this as a
movement and having those conversations
with, I guess, the normies, um, is so
important and, and just starting to move
that needle a little bit by little bit
and helping them just take a look at
it, make up your own mind once you've
done some study, once you've done some
reading, and yeah, like it's, it's,
it's such a wonderful thing to do.
Like, for example, on LinkedIn.
I've been shit posting a little bit
with, um, for the last, since 2014.
In the beginning.
2014 in 2015, I would barely get any likes
from, um, the people I used to work with.
And I thought that's a bit strange.
But I did have a few of my
ex-colleagues reach out to say,
Hey, Anja, I really like Bitcoin.
I've been in it for a while.
Um, but they never liked
my public posts because.
Again, the stigma that's surrounded,
they just don't wanna be seen as
the weird one in their office.
Um, so that's where we're still at.
But I have noticed recently people slowly
starting to like, it, slowly starting
to come out of the word work, and I'm
just trying to help be that person
where it's like, if I can talk about it.
Maybe you can do so.
I can't wait to see, um, Bitcoin become
a, like a topic on LinkedIn the way AI is.
It was, you know, AI was treated as a
fringe weird thing 10, 15 years ago.
Even though that technology did exist,
it was very much shared in very niche
circles until chat GBT came out and
then, you know, the whole floodgates
opened and now everyone's an AI ex.
Bed.
Um, so I really hope to see that same
kind of wave happen with Bitcoin.
We'll see.
We'll see.
K3nan: Yes, we will.
Um, and I'm sure it's coming.
Um, it's just a matter of time,
uh, because you know, at some
point the print, the printer is
gonna get turned on and then people
are gonna have to ask themselves,
well, what can we do about this?
Uh, and then the can
just keeps kicking down.
So at some point I am certain that,
uh, a conversation, a, an international
conversation around solutions to.
Printing money, uh, is going to be held.
And whether we end up on cbdc or we
end up on Bitcoin, um, that's going
to be the battle, in my opinion.
Anja: Yeah.
And I really can't foresee what's gonna
happen, whether we're going to have both
and, you know, whether I, I imagine.
Different countries will
respond differently.
I think some countries that
are more authoritarian will
literally block the OnRamps.
They won't allow you to
trade your fiat for Bitcoin.
Other countries might
severely restrict it.
Um, other countries
might moderate it like.
X amount of dollars per
month, um, to save the system.
Um, it'll be really interesting.
It'll be really interesting.
And yeah, I guess all we can do is
spread awareness and help people
understand, you know, both sides of
the story and make up their own mind
or what they feel is right for them.
K3nan: Absolutely.
Um, it's time to, yeah, just try and win
as many hearts and minds as possible.
Anja: Yeah, well, I can't have you.
I can't wait to see you in, in Byron Bay.
It's gonna be super, super exciting.
Um, I think that workshop is
going to have great attendance.
I'm hoping my parents
will make it down as well.
Um, but yeah.
Um, do you have any final words that
you'd like to share with the audience?
K3nan: Yeah, so look, I think,
um, if you wanna follow me, um,
I'm under K three tn on Twitter.
Um, and my websites are K three tn.com
and ministry of node.com au as well.
Um, and so yeah, if you'd like to
check out my content, you can find
all of the links through there.
Anja: Yep.
And I'll drop it in
the show notes as well.
Thank you so much for your time, Katan.
K3nan: No worries, Anja.
Great to be here.
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