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Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode three sixty six of the Pilot the Pilot podcast takes off now. Did you know that eleven percent of accidents happen while taxiing? A Vemco insurance company believes education and awareness make a real difference, which is why they support safety programs and reward pilots who stay sharp. Pilot to Pilot podcast listeners can save 5%. Call (888) 635-4297 or visit of emco.com/4297- owner for aircraft owners and visit of emco.com/4297- non owner for non owners today.
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Speaker 2:Hi. I'm Kyle Skuliski. I was a twenty three year air force fighter pilot in the f 15, f 16, and f a 18. Went on to industry and became a CEO of a company, but prior to that, I was a test pilot for Raytheon flying a modified seven twenty seven aircraft and led flight tests for Mitsubishi aircraft. I'm now a consultant, a keynote speaker, a leadership coach, and the author of a book called The Sky Less Traveled, a memoir about all those experience.
Speaker 1:Aviation, what is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot podcast. My name is Justin Sims, and I am your host. Today's guest is Kyle. He is a former f 15, f 16, f 18 Super Hornet, seven twenty seven test pilot.
Speaker 1:He said he flew a Lear. He's done a lot of stuff. He's a consultant. He now does he wrote a book. He's doing leadership talks.
Speaker 1:I mean, like, when you look at a resume, this guy has it all. And you can tell in this conversation just how much he loves his career, what he's done. Going to the Air Force Academy, a former football player, baseball player, so we had a lot of talk about there. We touch on leadership. We touch on how you can be the best version of yourself.
Speaker 1:And, of course, we talk about flying. In his first flight that let him play in a state playoff baseball game, which is pretty cool. But Kyle, thank you so much for calling the podcast. It was a lot of fun. And we talked at the end about how, you know, we didn't really get to dive too deep into one necessary subject.
Speaker 1:So there hopefully will be a future podcast. I really wanna talk about being a Raytheon seven twenty seven test pilot. That sounded like a lot of fun. But buy his book. It seems great.
Speaker 1:If it's as great as an interview, it's gonna be even better in the book. So check out his book. There should be notes in the bottom that you can click on that, and he talks about it toward the end as well. But, Aviation, I hope you're having a great day. Oh, wait.
Speaker 1:Let me go and do a little plug as well. Pilot to Pilot magazine volume three is now out. Go to pilotthepilothq.com/mag to subscribe today. The feedback has been great. The magazine's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:If you haven't subscribed, please please subscribe. It is unbelievable. I don't know why I said it like that, but it is. But aviation, without any further ado, here's Kyle. Kyle, what's going on?
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.
Speaker 2:Looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I always love talking to military pilots, mostly because I didn't go the military route, so it's kind of just like, you know, whenever I'm listening stories, I try to put myself in that position, be like, oh my gosh, what would my life have been like if I went military and would I have done this, would I have done that. And just it's just super interesting because one thing that I found in doing what I think it's like 300 and I think this would be 366 episodes, so this would be that one. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:What I found is that there's so many different ways that you can become a pilot, you know. You can be a one seventy two pilot, you can be a seven thirty seven pilot, you can fly the a three eighty, you can be a test pilot, like, it's so cool that it's such a big industry and we all can call ourselves pilots whether you're a sport pilot or test pilot or like I said, an a three eighty. So it's pretty cool to to hear those avenues and hear those stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is really. And and what's funny about it is even though you have all those different avenues, it is a a relatively small community and you get to know people in all those different aspects. So regardless of what kind of pilot you are, you you meet people that do all other different things and they're all amazing Yeah. And and the stories are great.
Speaker 1:You know what's also funny is like, when I was learning to fly in a one seventy two, you know, two zero six, all the planes that I flew leading up, like I always thought being an airline pilot was gonna be hard, it was gonna be difficult. And now that I'm an airline pilot, I look and I'm like, dang man, like actually like general aviation flying seems more difficult to me than flying an airliner. Right? It's like, how do I land that? How do I not flare at 30 feet?
Speaker 1:How do I, you know, it's like how do I make sure I follow all the regulations?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I mean, I didn't fly till I was in the military and then I flew for twenty three years. And it's when I got out of the military and, you know, I I got my ATP and and and got a job as a as a leader of pilot flying air ambulance and and corporate charter flights. And flying part one thirty five was was terrifying for me because I you know, the military, everything's structured. I always knew which air bases I was going to, and everything was set up.
Speaker 2:And now all of a sudden, I'm flying to places that, oh, there there's no control tower. I've never done that before. Or they apply into places that have lights, I have to turn them on somehow. And, you know, so all those things that I never had to do growing up as a as a fighter pilot, I had to learn and and then get a good appreciation for what other people have gone through, you know, in their experience. Because like I said, aviation is is a huge field and there's all sorts of different experiences out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you mentioned that you didn't fly till you were in the military. Was flying for you something that you knew you always wanted do? Was it, hey, I'm gonna go the military route, Top Gun just came out, I'm gonna be a military pilot, or was it, you know, I've always thought this was cool, let me try that.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm actually older than Top Gun. It didn't come out till I was already a lieutenant flying f fifteens, but no, I grew up in a large family with a father who was a school teacher and we didn't have a lot of money for anything. And so I was trying to find a way to go to college and Yeah. And it turned out that I played football pretty well. I was a quarterback, kinda like you, it sounds like.
Speaker 2:And Yeah, then the air force academy recruited me to go play football. And no one in my family had been in the military, nobody had been in aviation or pilots. In fact, up to that senior year in high school, I had never flown on an airplane in my life, not even as a passenger on an airliner. And it wasn't until I went to the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station for my physical to get into the Air Force Academy that I got my first flight. I was supposed to play in a state champions or state playoff baseball game that day, and it was all the way across the state.
Speaker 2:There was no way I was gonna make it. I had to have this physical to go to the academy. Well, a local orchardist flew a Cessna one seventy two to Whitby Island and picked me up after my physical and flew me across the state to make the baseball game. And that was my first flight of my life over the Cascade it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was beautiful. The Cascade Mountain, Mount Rainier to the side, beautiful sunny May day. And, you know, I made it to the game, was changing in the car, was got there just as the game started and actually hit a three run home run off of a future major league baseball player to win the game.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:But that was my first flight. It opened my eyes. I realized then that, boy, thought I had you know, planning this future for myself to be an engineer and these other things. And then I realized, boy, I'm gonna go to a place that's gonna afford me this opportunity, and I just didn't know it existed. And so then the second time I got on an airplane was the United Airlines flight from Seattle to Denver to take me to the Air Force Academy and, you know, got into the aviation programs there, and I never looked back.
Speaker 2:So yeah. I mean, you know, to to tell people that you gotta have your mind made up at a young age, you don't. You know? Keep it open. You never know what opportunity, what experiences will be presented to you.
Speaker 2:And then all of a sudden you find, hey, this is what I was meant to be. And I I learned very quickly after that that, yeah, this is what this is what I do and I do it well.
Speaker 1:You know, I find it interesting. I'm gonna ask a question a little bit, but about kind of your experience of flying and how you related to kind of the competitiveness that was required for football for baseball. But I I was very driven, I wanted to be a professional football player or just anything. Like baseball is my best sport, but I played baseball year round, I actually hated it and I can't wait to be done with Football kinda I didn't play till I was in eighth grade, really ninth grade ish. And then I was good at it as well, it was way more fun for me.
Speaker 1:But I thought I was gonna go pro, made it to Ohio State, and I got to Ohio State. And I kid you not, it was within like twenty five seconds of meeting the starting quarterback. Was like, alright, well, okay. I have reached my athletic limits here. I will be the backup or third string or whatever string you wanna call it at Ohio State for however long I'll be here.
Speaker 1:But I was searching. Right? Like you you everyone come every athlete, every person comes to that moment where you're just like, alright, well, plan a didn't work, what's plan b or what's plan c? So I started taking all these classes, I took business classes, I was like, this is just I I wasn't paying attention, I didn't like it. Started taking some communication classes, which is ironic now that I'm in communications technically, but didn't pursue that at the time.
Speaker 1:Still didn't like it. And then, I mean, I was fortunate enough to have my dad as a pilot, my grandpa as an airline pilot. I sat there one day and I was like, you know, they did they did it and they do it. What if I try it? So I went up, I took my flight and I was like, alright, this is sick, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:And I talked about the competitiveness because it really kept my drive of trying to make sure every flight was the best. Trying to make sure I did everything I could and I enjoyed the preparation because you know as a quarterback, as a baseball player, you're you're preparing for every single game, you're preparing for every single practice, whatever it may be. So the preparation was there and you could see the result after your preparation and the work you put in and it was either a successful flight or, you know, you go back, you watch the tape, you listen to whatever you need to do and you fix what you need to fix. But long winded story. But I wonder for you, did you find that competitiveness in flying and yourself as well that helped you kind of maintain that drive?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your story and mine match so so much. Yeah, I was quarterback when I played football, found myself like twelfth on the death chart and said, hey, baseball is my better game. I went over the baseball and I had a I had four years of varsity baseball at Air Force and Stets.
Speaker 2:But yeah. And my life had been about competition. My eldest brother, it was in the Philadelphia Phillies organization. You know, I had my dad was a coach. You know, athletics and competition was a very, very critical part of of how I grew up and and who I became.
Speaker 2:And that's why I think, you know, gravitating to being a pilot and more importantly, a fighter pilot, that whole idea of teamwork because even though I flew single seat aircraft, I tell people, you know, you never fly solo in in an aircraft or in in life. You know? You always have people that are backing you up, whether it's that maintenance team as a fighter pilot, your two or four ship or eight ship of aircraft, all your wingmen. You know, that idea of team and being a quarterback or leader or even a follower as a wingman, which is something that, you know, you learn as an athlete. So that competitive nature came through, plus the quest to always become better.
Speaker 2:You know, you don't rest on your laurels. The last win was okay. That's the last win. The last loss, that was just a loss. You know?
Speaker 2:You're not a failure because you lose. You pull you take the lessons from that, you prepare. And that whole concept of, you know, preparation, briefing, execution, and then the critical part and and what you learn as a as a pilot is the debrief. And, you know, what you take from that to become better and you fold that back in. And that cycle, you know, I learned in sports at a young age and it carried over, especially in in my time as a fighter pilot for twenty three years.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What would you say from sports help prepare you for the flying or for leadership or for anything that kind of your your future, you know, what could you pull from organized sports or taking sports into into college that you could apply and helped you out for your career?
Speaker 2:So I I mean, I think the big thing is for leadership is that leadership's about service. It's not about yourself. It it's about what can you do for your team to set them up to be successful. And in aviation, you know, that team, like I said, is a fighter pilot, it's your wingman, It's the maintenance team that's putting, you know, the airplane together because if you don't have a good airplane to fly, you're not gonna be able to do anything. You know, it's that whole effort infrastructure and that support team, but it's and leadership isn't about, hey.
Speaker 2:How they serve you. It's about how you serve them and put them in a position to succeed, and that only leads to your own success. So on the leadership side, I would say that from a, you know, from a tactical experience, I think the idea of having been a quarterback being able to see a field and understand that there's moving parts, you know, there's 22 different people moving out of football field on both sides of the ball. And understanding that, it was the same, I think, carried over to me is that that situational awareness, that ability to see a a picture of where, you know, the enemy aircraft were, where my own aircraft were, who's executing what in the tactic, whose responsibility, you know, the blocking and tackling part of it, you know, who's responsible for what in that. And just having that mindset and being able to picture things in that regard were very helpful.
Speaker 2:They really were very helpful.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And another one for me was handling adversity. I mean, you get hit in the mouth, you know, and you're like, woah. Alright. What's going on?
Speaker 1:Alright. Your whole game plan resilience. Yeah. And like their whole game plan is to shut you down and first play you're like, alright, well, we gotta we gotta switch something up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that was very beneficial and whether it's leadership, whether it's being creative, or whether it's just being a pilot, you know. Any kind of team organized sports or I've I've talked to a lot of people in marching band that do the same thing that have all said that it's all helped out. And I guess the whole point of this if you're young and you're listening to this is be involved in everything that you can be because you don't know what you're gonna pull from that scenario that you will use later in your life. Could be running a camp, it could be going to camp, it could be just playing sports outside with your friends, but just do all the things and it's gonna pay off in the long run.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I agree totally. I mean, and it's okay, you know, I always say to your point, you know, you gotta have a plan. You gotta have an idea where you wanna go. But to me, a plan is just a starting point for deviation.
Speaker 2:Right? Because it it never stands up to the first engagement with the enemy or with conflict or with whatever it is you're doing. So you gotta be adaptable and you gotta be flexible in what you do. And you also don't know what opportunities are gonna come your way. So if you're open to that, you know, you're marching down your plan, but, oh, boy, there's this new opportunity that could lead to something open a door that I didn't know existed before, then don't be afraid to to deviate from that.
Speaker 2:That it could be just a short deviation and you get back on track, or it may be, oh, wow. I can reassess. And and that's what says once you're on a path that you have to stay there forever. You know, and that's why, you know, I titled my book, A Sky Less Travel because, you know, that's one of the things I think I did throughout my career was was take the ability to make decisions that for myself first to to say, you know, not to be selfish, but to say, I need to be the best person I can be. And if I bring my best self to work every day doing something that I love to do, then I'm gonna help everybody else around me, my my coworkers, my colleagues, my family.
Speaker 2:Everybody's gonna benefit from that. So it's okay to find what you're truly passionate about and truly wanna do.
Speaker 1:Right. Absolutely. And we'll get more into the flying. I hope you'll probably talk about the flying, but this is important too. And I wanna touch on one part is how negativity is so contagious.
Speaker 1:If you let it seep in, whether it's the flight deck, whether it's the team, whether it's a relationship, if you can let negativity seep in, it will you give it the opportunity to take over. And once it's there, it's almost impossible to get everyone back on the same page and back on the same track. So it's almost like, I think it was a Jocko video where, you know, everything's going wrong and he's like, good. You know, it's like all the stuff's going bad, it's like, good. Just that response of not letting the negativity seep in and get away from whatever your mission is, whatever the goal is.
Speaker 1:If it's just flying from Charlotte to New York, you know. Alright, we got stuff going on, there's weather here. It's like, alright, good. Let's figure it out. Let's do this.
Speaker 1:Do our job, you know. So yeah. Trying to keep negativity from there is massive.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It it really is. And and, you know, I talk about the three c's that everybody has to have on a team. You gotta have character That always doesn't always show itself, but over time, you know, there's you gotta have good people that are willing to do the right thing and have integrity. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But, you know, there's teams that are full of good people that fail miserably because they're not competent. That's I could see. You know? So you gotta get good people, but they gotta be good at what they do. They don't have to be the best.
Speaker 2:You don't need superstars, but you need people who are competent, know their role, and their place. But but how many times you've probably seen it? You've been on teams that had a lot of good people, and they're really good at what they did, but they still failed. They didn't win. They were you know?
Speaker 2:And you went, how did that happen? And it was because of the third c. It was a commitment. And and that's a leader's job, a coach's job, or, you know, any leader on a team is to know how do you build that commitment. It's all about alignment.
Speaker 2:And it's getting rid of that negativity because you're able to show people the benefit of them buying into what you're trying to do, your mission or, you know, what your goal is, and then to show them what their role is and why that role that they do is important. You know? They may not be the one that's gonna be the cover of all the magazines, but, know, they have that that person can't do their job unless they do theirs. And if they see that, how that role contributes, it's easier for them to commit. That may becomes, you know, like, hey.
Speaker 2:I'm a part of some my work means something. I'm part of something bigger, you know, than than myself. And and that's when you get that commitment, and and it tends to get rid of negativity. And I think one of the best things you can do as a leader is the first thing you do is is your new team or whatever it is is or after a while is you have that, you know, take the first thirty minutes of meeting. Let people voice their complaints.
Speaker 2:And then after, say, great. You know, you're right. Everything you said is absolutely right, but we can't control 90% of it. So let's worry about this 10% that we can control. And then they're like, okay.
Speaker 2:Great. I got it out, and now I can go ahead and start worrying about, you know, this this stuff that we can make a difference on. So, yeah, those are all great things, you know, great discussion. And and Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's it's all important. It all kind of whether you're a Pilot, whether you wanna be a leader in your family, community, or just be the best version of yourself, it's all important. But people here for flying, let's get into the flying. You are at the Air Force Academy, you know. I'm I'm a I would imagine I didn't go to the Air Force Academy.
Speaker 1:I know there's a lot more jobs than just being a pilot in the Air Force, but I'd imagine a good bit of people want to be pilots that go. You know, you probably show up to to your class or your orientation, you're like, what do wanna do? It's like, I'm be a fighter pilot. What do you wanna do? I'm be a fighter What do you wanna do?
Speaker 1:I'll be a fighter Was that was that kinda what you were going down? You know, you took that flight, that GA flight over the Cascade Mountains. You saw that. Were you like, yep, pilot. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Air Force Academy. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. Then, you know, then it was, oh, I'm gonna be a pilot. And then I'd know you know, met a guy who had, you know, from my hometown who had gone, and he'd flown the minimum number of years, went to airlines. So was like, oh, yeah. I wanna get a heavy and then learn to be an airline pilot because I didn't know.
Speaker 2:And and it wasn't until after my freshman year in that summer their summer programs. We don't get summer off like like most colleges. So but there was aviation program, and I did the the parachute free fall program, got my jump wings, but I also then did the sailplane gliding program and did did solo got up to solo in a glider. And at that time, I realized, okay. This is something this this is great.
Speaker 2:This this now I actually got hands on. No throttle, but I got hand on stick and Yeah. And realized that, hey. This is something that I think I have a aptitude for, and I really enjoy. And that part, I started thinking, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, you know, being a fighter pilot could be something that's in my future. And and then, you know, it was a couple years later, just before your senior year, then you do the at the time, it was Cessna. It was t 40 ones. It was a one seventy two with turbocharged engines for the altitude at the academy.
Speaker 2:But, you know, that was your prescreening to go to pilot training, and I had an f fifteen pilot as an instructor who was there at the academy and, you know, talked to me about all his experiences. And at that point and, you know, I did well in that program, and then it you know, I was like, okay. This is this is what I wanna do because it it aligns with who I am. It aligns with my sports background, a competitive nature, you know, being a part of a team and going out and succeeding in a mission. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what what came next? Was it just as easy as I wanna be a pilot? Was it a a test you had to take? Was it a selection process?
Speaker 2:Can we talk about that? At time, you know, I was in early eighties and it was the Reagan years, and and we were on a massive buildup, you know, the United States Air Force to the point, you know, a few years later, it was an air force that was about five times larger than the air force that we have today. I mean, it was you know, lots of pilots. I think there was nearly 2,000 pilots a year going through the the pipeline. And so if you were at the academy and you met the medical requirements, then you could go to pilot training if you wanted to.
Speaker 2:So I think out of my class, we were the first class of a thousand people in 1984. I think just over half, about five or 600 of those people went on to pilot training. So it was automated. Yeah. I mean, you wanted to, you got to go.
Speaker 2:And so it was a good time. I I know later years during the drawdowns and, you know, that wasn't always the case. But for me, it yeah. You wanted to do it, you got to do it.
Speaker 1:It's crazy just being a pilot, whether it's military, whether it's civilian, it's just like it's so much of your career is based on timing. Right? Like, it's like, did I do this at the right time? Was I born in the right generation? Was I was I at the you know, it's just like I don't really know if anything else compares to how lucky you truly have to be to be in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1:And obviously, you know, we can talk about how, you know, you make your own luck, you put yourself in the right position. But there is, you know, you really do need a little bit of luck in the right time that you can't control, whether, you know, someone with the same resume, same everything you apply a couple years different or later and it's a different story. It's just crazy how much luck and can really play in your career.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it really does. I mean, even back then, you know, if you graduated from Air Force Pilot Training, you could take a little written test and you got your commercial pilot's license from the FAA.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Well, I did that right away. So, you know Absolutely. During the certificate. And then and it was before the ATP rules changed when I was about ready to retire. I went, well, I'm gonna upgrade this to an ATP, you know, just to see what was out there.
Speaker 2:And for me at that time, with my experience, you know, I had, know, 3,500 fighter hours at that point and twenty plus years experience, you know, multi engine, single engine f 16. And and so all I had to do was, you know, take this little all ATP course where I went and did, like, three days of academics and passed a written test, and I and I I've I elected to take additional flights, but I could have done two practice rides and a check ride, but I took a week and did five practice rides and then did a check ride just because, you know, I didn't have a lot of GA experience, and it was a little clearance in Seminole that that we were flying. So Yeah. But even with that, I mean, it took one week, and and I got my ATP. And and that's just not the case now with the way the rules have changed.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it is timing and it is luck, but, you know, you deal, you have you you figure out what the circumstances are and then you work your head around it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. What was your training like? You know, you you only had one GA fight, you know, there is a chance that you you get sick when you're when you're pulling g's, there's a chain you know, there's so many variables that go into to training. But was it pretty easy for you? Was it something that, you know, when you have a goal, when you have a mission, you can kinda put your head down and do the work to get the job done?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I don't wanna say it's easy because it's not easy. You know, we had a my pilot training class when I graduated from the academy. Few months later, I was at Laughlin Air Force Base in in Del Rio, Texas, and I entered it at the time as a t thirty seven, was the primary trainer, and jumped right into that program. There was probably a 100 guys in the two different flights that were my class, and I think nearly half of them washed out of the program.
Speaker 2:I think 55 graduated at the time. So, you know, it wasn't easy. But for me, for some reason, it just like I said, it just clicked. It was like what I was I I never in any of my training, I never failed a ride and had to do a repeat ride. I certainly never failed a check ride or anything, and I know that wasn't the experience for everyone.
Speaker 2:I don't think that made me better than everybody else. It
Speaker 1:just Right.
Speaker 2:I worked hard for it. It's just that it just clicked for me. Just something about flying an airplane always worked. And so I worked hard at it. You know, I did everything I could.
Speaker 2:I took extra sim sessions when I could. I chair flew as much as I could. I studied, and I think that's one of the things that benefited me both in pilot training. And then when I went to the f 15, I won the academic award out of my training class in the f 15 as well. And it's the fact that it's not just about, you know, stick and rudder skills, you know, how your hands are, it's it's also what you know.
Speaker 2:You know, I always work very hard on being the top of my class on the academic side as well. So I I think that that's a very important thing for people to know as well. You gotta put in that time as much as you do the flight time.
Speaker 1:When you look back on your flight training, do you look back on it like as like, oh man, what a time to be alive, like that was awesome. Or is it more of like a, that was a lot of trauma, you know, like trauma bonding, like I've got recurring nightmares about if I'm late and all the punishments. Like with football, every year I'll have like one recurring quote unquote nightmare of just being late to practice and just the outcomes from that. And coach Meyer yelling at me, coach Mick yelling, I was like, oh, God, like just wake up in full sweat. But for you, how do you look back on your military training?
Speaker 1:Do you look back, you know, rosy eyed, big glad, like it was awesome, I loved it, I go back to it again.
Speaker 2:You know, both the academy and the pilot training, I look back on it now and I think I look back on it more fondly than I did as I was going through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I was an independent sword. I want I didn't like being told what to do all the time. And and that was more of the atmosphere during, you know, that training at the academy and then in pilot training. It was more the what people think of the military as the superior subordinate, you know, you and and it rightly so. You don't know what you're doing at the time, and they're trying to break you down and then build you back up into what they're looking for.
Speaker 2:I think I really started to shine is when I got out of that formal training and got into my first fighter, which was the f 15. And when I went to f 15 training at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona and then my first assignment, you know, 15 at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, that's when I I look back now and say, okay, this this is the life I wanna live. This is Mhmm. You know, this this is where I got up every day, put on the flight suit and said, this is what I wanna do. I'm looking forward to go into work today.
Speaker 2:This is this is what I wanna be. So, yeah, the training is kind of the ritual, the rite, the passage that you have to do. But it it it was when you got into that combat squadron and and that at the time, all it was all male, you know, so it was that brotherhood, that kind of fraternity of of people who are very unique in what they did. And that's when I really felt like, okay. This is something you know, I'm not getting out six or seven years ago at the airlines.
Speaker 2:This is something I think I could do for a long time.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. What's up, guys? You know it's no secret. There's one thing all pilots are working toward.
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Speaker 1:They know what it means to have a mandatory retirement age, and they can help you structure your portfolio to make the most of any airline, union, or even military benefits you may have earned. Most pilots have no idea what retirement will require until they get there, so a solid plan helps tremendously. It all starts with getting the guide. Download your personal copy of the final approach retirement guide at allworthairline.com/justin. When you look back as well, is there like a one story, whether it's like a great story or like a trauma bonding moment with all your your classmates that you have?
Speaker 2:No. You know, there's not one story. There's just a lot of great stories. You know, I've actually my my wife's asked me, say, maybe I need to write another book about all the all the funny sides of you know, and all the bonding sides and and things that we did. But now I I you know, there's the thing probably that changed my perspective more than anything else was is after I did get to the f fifteen and my first five years as a, you know, five to ten maybe it was up to about ten years as a fighter pilot.
Speaker 2:You know, I witnessed or was flying in or my wingman or the guys I was flying against in training, you know, saw seven guys die in mishaps, from midair collisions, ground impacts. And then I had two other squadron mates, one a fellow flight commander in in Japan, and then my very best friend who was an aggressor with me, Jim Malibu Reynolds. He hit the ground in a red flag exercise at Nellis, you know, 30 year old top of the world guy, had built his own experimental high performance aircraft that he did air shows in. You know, he was a super pilot, and and he just had a moment where, you know, just didn't pay attention and hit the ground. And from that though, you know, the realization was, I never doubted about what we were doing.
Speaker 2:And I guess when you're that young, your ego steps in and you say, hey, that ain't gonna happen to me. Know, I ain't gonna happen to me. I'm better than this. You know, I can make but you never know. And it took a couple of years and it made me realize that, you know what?
Speaker 2:Life is precious. You're not guaranteed it tomorrow. And it could end on any ordinary day, you know, not just from flying, but from anything. And but but from those mishaps and, you know, sitting around in the the squadron bar afterward with everybody when we were toasting and telling our stories about our lost comrade, I think it it instilled in me that, you know what? I'm not gonna be any less risky, but I'm gonna make my risk more intentional.
Speaker 2:You know, the risks I do take, they're gonna be intentional risks, not stupid ones. And and I'm gonna do the things that I wanna do instead of put them off. You know, everybody, oh, I'm gonna wait ten years and then I'm gonna well, why? If you can do it now, do it now because you don't know that you're gonna have those ten years, what's gonna happen in those ten years. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, that's it was more and and learning to live in the moment. And I think that's what flying is for me, and that's why I liked it so much because it you I mean, you know it too. You get you get in that flow state, and the only thing that you're concentrating on is that moment right there, that flying that airplane, doing the things that you're trying to do with it, and everything else just kinda melts away. And it's a wonderful feeling. And and it's and when it's over, you're just like, wow.
Speaker 2:Man, where where have I been for the last couple hours? This is awesome.
Speaker 1:Like, you
Speaker 2:know, this total focus and this ability to to tune out the world and do something that that's that's wonderful and creative.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and so I think for me, that was the story that resonated the most. It took loss for me to realize that, you know what? There's a there needs to be a purpose for what I'm doing, and I need to be intentional with it. And I need to to live in this moment right now because you don't know when you're not gonna get that moment anymore. So sorry to have a bummer story and a and a down No.
Speaker 1:I think it's an
Speaker 2:But that was a think
Speaker 1:it's important. Part of it. Yeah. I I think it's very important because everyone I mean, I feel like everyone is told this, right? Like, you're gonna know someone that is either gonna get in an accident that may die in an accident.
Speaker 1:This whole industry, we learn from people's mistakes and we hope that those mistakes are survivable and we hear them from the Pilot themselves. I mean, even in not mistakes, just couldn't be your mistake. Could be someone else's mistake as a mechanic, couple weeks ago, years ago, could just be crazy situation. But we're always told that you're gonna know someone that will get in an accident or probably die from an accident if you do this for a long time. And it could be to the point where you rethink things.
Speaker 1:Right? Like where you're like, I just lost my best friend, why am I flying airplanes? This is not worth it. I got a family, I got kids, whatever it may be. I mean, there's been a couple of times where I've wanted to buy you're like, oh, I gotta fly.
Speaker 1:There's been a couple of times where I wanted to buy an airplane and then, you know, something happens if someone that I know that gets an accident was like, I don't know if I can, like, I don't wanna know if I wanna die in an airplane and have my four year old be like, yeah, my dad my dad died in an airplane, know, it's just like, it just makes you think sometimes. Right? But then you go fly and then you remember why you did it. And you also remember that that person that was flying is probably like, dude, go fly. Like, this is the best thing we get to in the world.
Speaker 1:Go do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, that that's the truth. They died loving what they do. And, you know, like I said, I don't know how long I get, but I don't want the end to be something that's that where I'm just hanging on and I'm and and it's miserable every day. You know?
Speaker 2:I wanna be doing what I love to do when it's my last day. So the you know, even when I haven't flown, boy, it's been a couple years now and I needed to go get a light airplane and and get back out there myself.
Speaker 1:Me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I quit flying as a test pilot about five years ago. So Yeah. But but even then, it's, yeah, it's what drives it becomes part of your DNA, if you will, you know, it's who you are and what you do and if you do it right, yeah, there's great reward. And what I like, you know, to your point about safety in the industry, you know, when I started in back in the eighties, it was really about, oh, all the accidents happened and then there was an investigation, figure out what wrong, and then we'd figure out how to do things.
Speaker 2:Well, unfortunately, somebody had to pay for that, you know, and they always said, you know, all these things are written in blood because of some mistake that already happened. But I I like the focus today, you know, has gone more to about managing risk and trying to prevent those things from happening in the first place. So being more proactive and trying to figure out where do we stop that chain before, you know, it turns into that mishap. And I think you see that in the mishap rates, you know, so those of you that are out there, you know, you know, like they say flying safer driving a car. If you look at the at the rates, but, you know, that's the nice thing about the industry.
Speaker 2:And I I think pilots in general is that, you know, we strive for perfection knowing that we'll never get it, but what it leads to is excellence. And and, you know, that's striving for that perfection has made it a very safe industry. And I think that's an important thing for people to know, but we can't give up on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Going to more flying and hopefully happier notes. Yeah. But f 15, f 16, do you have one that you like more than the other? Is there one where you're just like, oh my gosh, I missed the f 15, like that thing was sweet.
Speaker 1:Or do you are both they just like, I love them both. Could I'd love
Speaker 2:to see Well, I have a navy stink on me too. Did an exchange tour with the navy and flew the f
Speaker 1:a Yeah.
Speaker 2:As a Okay.
Speaker 1:Then we got added to the list.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But now you love the one you grew up with. Operationally, I was an f 15 c model, so the single c air to air version. And, you know, what an air I mean, it's still there today and a newer version, the e x. Think about it.
Speaker 2:It's been over fifty years since f fifteen first flew, and it's still relevant today. And and, you know, from the airplane that I flew in the mid eighties, you know, I think it had a 24 k signal processor for the radar and it was the greatest radar in the world at the time. But if a Commodore 64 had a bigger processor than that radar to today, essentially, it's a supercomputer. And it's not just the radar, it's a whole weapon system that, you know, includes data link and helmet mounted queuing systems and, you know, it's it is a marvelous machine. And so being the airplane I flew first in 1985 to the one I left in 2005, what a difference, you know, in a different machine.
Speaker 2:And and I loved it all all along the way. So from from my job as a fighter pilot, there's just nothing better than the f 15. You know? But the f 16 as an aggressor, you know, we never carried bombs. We were always at, you know, clean talk about the sportiest little sports car airplane you could ever get in.
Speaker 2:It you know, acceleration nine g on demand. It it was just a fun little airplane to fly. Not one probably I I me personally wanna go to combat in, although it does very well and it's proven itself over the years. But, boy, just a joy. I mean, it's a know, you pulled the most g's in that airplane, in any airplane I pulled.
Speaker 2:I've I've been faster in that airplane than any airplane I've flown, you know, just over Mach two in that. And so, yeah, I had a lot of fun. The f 18
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A whole different experience. You know? It's it's it's a great airplane too. Just suffers, I think, in that it's trying to do a lot of roles for the Navy. I didn't get to fly the Super Hornet, it was just coming out when I was doing testing in the C and D models.
Speaker 2:But you know, a remarkable airplane as well. And so I feel very blessed to have flown the, you know, the three greatest fighters of a generation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Only regret I retired a couple of years too early and then get the F-twenty two under my belt.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just went to to Air Venture, Oshkosh and like just I mean, in previous years f 22, f 35, just seeing what they can do. Like, I mean, they throw in the vector thrust, like my brain cannot compute. It's like this plane is sitting in the air just like turning.
Speaker 1:It's like how is that possible? Like I just can't even mean, it just makes you think like what are they currently working on of what an actual airplane can do, versus what we have right now. Because if we have vector thrust now, I mean, that was designed way before we are seeing it in action. So just the idea of what could be secret or top secret that we don't know is just like mind boggling to to
Speaker 2:the f 47, the new sixth gen fighter is coming out, AC F-twenty two, I'm really interested to see what, I mean, an interesting and you know, what it's gonna do too with the ability to fly with all those combat collaborative aircraft, you know, so you got a whole swarm of unmanned vehicles being led by this, you know, incredible manned vehicle, you know, that would be, you know, different times. Yeah. They're different times, but
Speaker 1:Different times, that's definitely for You know, I've never really asked this question for someone who's gone to Rasonic or Mach two, but what's it like? Like, when you're in the actual aircraft, are you do you even know what you're doing? Like, does it feel that much different? Or are you just like, I'm going pretty fast?
Speaker 2:And usually when you're going really the high number, the high high Mach number, you know, you know it too. You fly higher Mach at altitude. Yeah. You know, so I was at 40 some, 48,000 feet or something when I was going Mach two and and it's just a number. You know?
Speaker 2:You do feel Mhmm. As you get to the to the top end max speed of the airplane, the airplane starts to make some noises as the engine groans in a different way. And you learn that, okay. There is there is a limit here, and I need to make sure that that you back off of that. But, typically, when, you know, you're supersonic, it's just a number.
Speaker 2:You know, you'll see the airspeed indicator will blip for a little bit as you go through the number, and then it starts tracking normal again. So, no, there's not a whole lot of difference. Where you really notice the speed and you realize how quickly, you know, things can happen is when you fly in a low level and, you know, you're at 540 ground speed. So you're doing nine miles a minute, but you're at two to 300 feet above the ground. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:You know, and you're you're doing ridge. You're crossing the ridges. You're rolling inverted, pulling over the backside, pull it out, you know, kinda like that stuff you see in the Top Gun Maverick movie. You know, you redo that stuff. And and that's when the sensation of speed and the realization that, you know, it takes about a half a second or less to go from there to just a if you're not paying attention, you know, a slight descent hitting the ground.
Speaker 2:So when you're seeing things go by, you know, at nine miles a minute or so, when you're Yeah. That low to the ground is when you really get that sensation about, oh wow, you know, there this is something you gotta pay attention to.
Speaker 1:Does the aircraft handle any different when you're going that fast? Or I mean, you're just is it pretty Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can get a lot of G on it. You can over G airplanes that don't have a G a a hurry. So you gotta be careful about that. So that's one thing, the F-fifteen didn't have a G limiter, so you could over G it in a hurry.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, you just kind of felt that sensitivity. And that's one thing, you know, more you hear about the older guys that have flown an airplane, like, the f 15 that was you know, before it was all fly by wire like it is now is that, you know, you learned that the airplane would talk to you when you were at different speeds. And, you know, when you were a very high speed, you'd pull, you'd feel a very solid airplane, and and it took a while for that nose to move. And but it felt very heavy and a bit very steady versus when you're right right in the heart of the envelope, you'd pull and they talked about sustaining and you'd feel like little like, you had mice jumping on the wing. So you'd feel this little, you know, flutter on the wing, and you knew you were really performing the wing at that time.
Speaker 2:And then when you would get really slow into high angle of attack, you know, it was like elephants on the wing. You know, you'd feel this yeah. The whole airplane is just driving around, and and so you would feel those sensations. You know, something like the f 16, though, when you start getting a fly by wire system, a lot of that feel goes away because you're just making an input to a computer, and the computer's doing it. And a lot of times, the computer has the ability to actually veto what you're asking for.
Speaker 2:You know, saying, no. You don't wanna go there because,
Speaker 1:know Yeah. Bad idea.
Speaker 2:Bad idea. Bad sometimes you're like, I really want to because if I don't, I'm gonna hit that guy right now. And I'd rather go out of control than have a midair and then figure out how
Speaker 1:to do this.
Speaker 2:So so the technology has changed some of that. But, yeah, that's sort of another thing about the f 15. It's just it was such a great flying airplane and it gave you feedback. Yeah. And and you could do things with that feedback without having you could have head out looking around, you know, flying off the the guy that you're maneuvering, and you could tell, you know, within a few knots what your airspeed was just by the field of the airplane and the g load that you had on it.
Speaker 2:You didn't have to look inside. Yeah. And and, again, probably not the case with some of the, you know, more stable and fly by wire airplanes today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. As someone who is, you know, test pilot has gone supersonic, has flown these planes, what do you think about what they're doing with, you know, Boom Supersonic or NASA and all that kind of stuff? Yeah. Is this kind of is this wild? Like, this even to you like, oh, wow, this is crazy, this is wild that they're trying to do this or is this kinda like, you know, just fly fast, we can make it work, just do it.
Speaker 2:Well, mean, it's, you know, from a technical side, you know, you always say if you have enough money in engineering, you can do anything and and and it is. I mean, it's a great idea to be able to travel supersonic for passengers. Know, it just the the problem always becomes, is it economical? And it it did the regulations preclude it from being something, you know, and so now supersonic flight over land, you know, is problematic. The NASA program, I have a good friend who's in that program.
Speaker 2:He's one of the test pilots flying that. What is it? The x 58. I forget what the number is, but Exactly. The the supersonic one to come up with, you know, how do you shape a the supersonic boom, you know, the shot cone from that and and make it so that it's not on the ground as much so that we can do that.
Speaker 2:And I know Boom's working with them. Again, I have a number of friends that are in that program as well. Yeah. And those are all great, but the so I think from a technology standpoint, you know, this is it's not evolutionary. It's all revolutionary.
Speaker 2:Controlling the the shock wave is something that's pretty neat and and technology needs to develop, but it it's gonna be economic and that's that's the part. And can we get past the regulation? You know, can we get the regulatory bodies to to buy into it? And and if it does that, then I think there's great future there and I think people benefit from it. Right?
Speaker 2:If if you can reduce time that you're in the air, that just gives people more time to do the things that matter to them. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm thinking of it as from a a pilot standpoint. One, it would be cool, but also like the duty day. Think about the duty day. It's like, alright.
Speaker 1:I'm going now I'm going New York to London, London to Chicago on a day instead of like New York to Chicago, Chicago to New York. It's like, think about tired, which maybe you wouldn't don't know. Maybe we had the same kind of being tired, but it's like, oh, that's a long day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it it it it is, but again, you know, especially if can get back to the time zone that you started in. Yeah. You know, that's the part that gets me.
Speaker 2:It isn't so much the length of day. It's then trying to get synced to some new time zone. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think there's great potential there. You know, a lot of the things I was working in my business as well was, you know, where are we going with alternative energy sources as well.
Speaker 2:I mean, what what can hydrogen do? What can we do with a hybrid electric type aircraft? Is there a future for any kind of electric aircraft too? You know, because I think one of the the things that, you know, new guys that are starting out is, and you look at all the studies, the number one prohibitive thing for people becoming pilots is cost and availability of aircraft to build hours in. And, you know, you look at a fleet of training aircraft out there that are averaging, you know, thirty to forty years old that haven't changed technology in a long, long time, and, you know, you pay, what, 160 up to $200 a flight hour or whatever it's gonna be, and maybe more now in in other places.
Speaker 2:Is there an alternative? You know? Is there an alternative to come up with something that's a hybrid electric or electric airplane that costs, you know, $30 a flight hour? And, you know, the same cost for the airplane, but its operating costs significantly less. I think if we can break paradigms like that, then we can make it affordable and we can make the public, you know, be able to jump in on it more.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, those are the kind of things I continue to try to help with and then I work with in my consulting.
Speaker 1:Well, since you have experience with consulting with that, is that something you think I mean, I'm guessing you're gonna say yes, but is that something you think is in, you know, in the future or near term future? I know that what a 100 low lead is supposed to be sunsetting here soon, so like even just figuring out what to replace that with. Right? Like the engines were pretty much designed for low lead. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what is what is the new a different type of fuel look like? Are you still gonna have the same TBO? Do you have to get a new engine? Do you have to get it fixed? That's a cost asset as well.
Speaker 1:So I mean, you looking at this, you looking at the future, do you think, you know, ten, fifteen years there's gonna be more electric or sustainable fuel, hydrogen and whatever it may be, like a mixture or do you think it's gonna be more of the same?
Speaker 2:I mean, it could be more of the same, but I think right now people are having that realization. And you know, there's been a lot written about electric aircraft and I think a lot of it has been oversold. And if you look just plain at the technology, batteries are a limitation. They're heavy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They only, they don't give you the flight time that you, most people want, they don't give you the range that you want. You know, the nice thing is is that, you know, the airplanes that I've been working with with people is that, know, center of gravity change it doesn't change more than an inch from flight to flight, you know, so you don't have to worry about balancing and putting You take off and land essentially at the same weight. But but what can batteries do? And I think you look at it from the low end of it is, you know, one of the companies I'm working with is looking at, hey. We can do a fixed wing airplane that has a propeller on the front that's an electric engine, and it's built purpose built for pilot training because pilot training doesn't require much more than a two hour sortie, doesn't require much more than 250 mile range, and you can probably achieve that with batteries.
Speaker 2:And if you can do that, like I said, and drive those operating costs to be about one fifth or or or so, one fourth to one fifth of what they are today, then all of a sudden, you know, boy, people can afford it. And you can start, you you know, still making the same money you're making, you know, as an instructor and as a company doing that, but your operating cost is so much less, you can pass that on to a customer and and you can get in there. So I think things like that when you find the niche uses where you can start substituting while the technology catches up, I I think is there. But, you know, the idea of an all electric aircraft being even a regional airplane or or anything bigger is probably, you know, very far fetched in the near future. Hybrid, I think, has some potential just like we started you know, so it didn't go right to electric cars.
Speaker 2:We went to hybrid aircraft. Mhmm. Maybe for some of these regional, more little regional routes that have gone away with the airlines. You know? Now you gotta go from one small city to a big hub and then to another hub and then to a small city.
Speaker 2:Maybe now intra city on shorter distances that used to have connecting flights might be able to do that If they can get, you know, a hybrid airplane that has eight to 12 passengers and and there's, you know, demand for that, and they can do it. Again, it's all economics. The technology is there. We certainly can do it with technology, but you gotta be able to do it so that, you know, the paying customer can afford it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you gotta scale it up too. Right? I mean, you gotta
Speaker 2:be able to do it
Speaker 1:multiple times a day. You can't like, you gotta land, you gotta go back and you gotta do it again. You like, no one wants to just do it once a day. Alright, we're charging the battery, it's gonna take ten hours. Right?
Speaker 1:It's like we gotta get this battery back to a 100% as fast as possible, which I'm sure there is technology that can do it, but then lost one of my lights. But then Yeah. It just goes to how often can you do it. Right? How safe is it for the battery?
Speaker 1:Mean, just a whole different type of of of dangers of flying. Right? You know Yeah. Even just think about lithium ion batteries in our phones taking it up in the air. It's like that's a big danger.
Speaker 1:That is a ticking Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what people think. Oh yeah, we have it in cars, know, we can just put it in. Well, when you put it in flight, there's all these these regulations, the FAA, rightly so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Rightly so.
Speaker 2:So, you know, like you're talking about battery packs in an airplane, each you have to break that big battery down into a bunch of sub modules. They each go inside of, you know, this this metal that just can't burn. Each unit has its own temperature detector. It has a venting system to let hot gases and flame escape from the airplane. You know?
Speaker 2:So, you know, there's all these things that add to the complexity and why it hasn't just happened. You know? And and those are things that have to get through certification. And so, yeah, Makes it very
Speaker 1:No. It's an exciting time though because innovation just is good. Right? Like anyone just trying to work and solve a problem. Whether it leads to new ways to travel, whether it needs leads to new technology, or whether it's just, hey, we tried, but we learned that this is the best way and now we're gonna focus on this still.
Speaker 1:Because as we can all agree, I mean, there has been kind of changes, but, you know, some of these airplanes are still using the same engine technology. You talked about how the f 15, the seven thirty seven, they've been around for a very very long time. Like the innovation is there's still innovation there, but everything seems like older technology and just seeing the idea of getting some new technology and getting some kind of excitement around it. It it's fun. It's it's great for for all of aviation I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The good news is regardless of what paths go, we're still gonna need pilots.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, at least for
Speaker 1:Keep that up.
Speaker 2:Near term, you know, near term, no one's talking about autonomous vehicles really to bring passengers around, maybe cargo, but but they're we need pilots. We're gonna need more than than what's out there. And and, you know, bottom line, it it's still fly. I flew the electric aircraft simulator, one of the companies that's doing it, and, you know, they did a great job. They put a Garmin cockpit in.
Speaker 2:They have instruments that look just like you do with a piston engine airplane. You know, you have a engine. You you're just managing a different engine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, you you don't learn to be a pilot to fly a piston engine or a jet. You learn to fly it to, you know, to to fly your craft and to manage your propulsion and to, you know, do what it is that you need to do. It's just a different propulsion system, and so you don't manage it. But the the gauges, like the same, you know, your battery power was your fuel gauge, essentially. You had, you know, temperature gauges that were your battery pack temperature monitoring.
Speaker 2:You have, you know, essentially RPM for your your propeller. And so, you know, they were still things that pilots could transition between one type of aircraft and another. But but the bottom line, you still need the pilot to be able to do.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah. You know, looking back on your career of flying, is there a moment that you're most fond of? Is it I mean, we talked about your love of the f 15, but is it becoming a test pilot? Is it consulting?
Speaker 1:Is it flying in the military? Is it, you know, high school football? Like, this is the greatest time of my life. Like, what what do you look most fondly on when you look back on your career?
Speaker 2:Boy, the people, my fellow fighter pilots that I got to grow up with, I got to lead, I got to mentor. It is truly an incredible, I mean, still today, you know, friends from forty years are, we can sit down, haven't seen each other in thirty years and the story just picks up where it left off. Yeah. It's when you go through something like that with people, you get this bond and an understanding that only people who have been through it together understand and any team, you know, from whatever your unique situation is, but certainly as a fighter pilot, you know, it's intense and it's fast paced and you know, it can be dangerous and it can be life and death and you go through that with people, you know, that's what I look back on more. I don't remember, write about a few of my books, some of the stories, missions that I did, but I also write about, you know, some of those after the mission was over, those experiences with my friends where we would bond, you know.
Speaker 2:I write a whole section about the squadron bar that every fighter squadron had and the rituals on Friday nights that I look back on fondly, you know, the naming ceremonies where guys got their call signs and, you know, the the stale popcorn soaked in jalapeno juice, you know, you know, that that we would do. The, you know, crud, which is one of my favorite games that's played on a billiard or a pool table that's that's quite physical game, but takes some skill and and and just really bonds people together. So, I mean, I think that's what I look back on and I remember as, you know, this fraternity of being a fighter pilot that, you know, you're doing something that very few people get to do and the fact that we understood that and we backed each other up and we got to spend that, not just time flying together, but that time away and and being able to relate because a lot of people just can't relate to, you know, what it was we were doing or what what we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I can still sit down with any of those friends and and whether I go to an aggressor union, which one of them's coming up here down at Nellis, you know, and see all those guys that have been around for a lot of years doing great things, you know, those are those are just great memories. So Yeah. Couldn't trade it for anything. I you know, my mom used to ask me, when are you gonna use your college degree? And I said, well, I don't even know what it is anymore, man.
Speaker 2:I I'm a pilot. You know, I'm a pilot.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I think you'll agree with this, but as someone that's like a very driven person, as someone that I'm guessing when you're doing this, you had goals. Right? You're like, man, I can't wait to do this. I can't wait to do that.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to be this.
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 1:know, now that you've done those things, when you look back, do you kind of regret did you take the grind for granted? Did you take, you know, the work, the training, and look back on it? And then were you able to enjoy that as much you were? Mean, you talk fondly of it now, but in the moment, you know, it's just so much like you're so laser focused on, I wanna be this, I wanna fly solo in the f 15, I wanna go be deployed, I wanna do this, blah blah blah, be a test pilot, that sometimes people forget to enjoy what you're doing right now. Did you have any issues with that?
Speaker 2:No, I I didn't. I think that goes back to the, you know, you gotta find what you're good at, you know, and really work hard at it. And and you wanna be compensated well in your life for what you're doing, but you don't have to be rich, you know, to have a rich life. There's other compensation that comes with it, but there's a lot of people who get compensated, they're millionaires, they do their job well and they're miserable. And the third thing is is that because they didn't find joy in what they're doing.
Speaker 2:It's amazing if you find that thing that really drives you. When things get hard, it doesn't seem so hard. You know, you're because it's something that you're invested in and it's just a new challenge. And so I think that was it for me when I found flying. And I found being a fighter pilot in particular.
Speaker 2:I found that thing that I just knew I was meant to do. So I never felt like it was a grind. You become more resilient. Yeah. You know, we talked about that a little earlier, but you become more resilient because it's worth it to you to do that extra that it's gonna take.
Speaker 2:And and so I I think that's, you know, something I say to all young people. You know? Just don't go do something because you think you're good at it. It'll make you a lot of money because you gotta ask yourself if you're gonna be happy doing it. If you are, then the rest of it becomes easy and you won't have regrets.
Speaker 2:And even, you know, nothing comes easy. It it never does. You gotta work for it. You still gotta work hard for it. But that work then, it brings you satisfaction and because it's going for a purpose that you really wanna do.
Speaker 2:So for me that was being a fighter pilot and so now I never felt like, boy, I'm giving up something because of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like I said, I was very lucky to get to fly three cool airplane. The one thing that I will say though, is that, you know, the corporate air force kind of has a path they expect you to do, You know, they have one kind of path up or out promotion system, and it's less about being a fighter pilot, more about being an officer and, you know, becoming a general officer someday or something. But, you know, that path's not for everybody, and I think I made a decision early on that, you know what? I'm not just gonna stay in the f fifteen. I'm really good at it, but they're always stay in the f fifteen.
Speaker 2:That's, you know, where you're gonna make your name. I said, yeah. But that's I I mastered that. I wanna do something new. So I went to the F 16 as an aggressor and took a, you know, unconventional path.
Speaker 2:That's my sky less traveled, and and I learned so much as an aggressor and got to be involved in things that you know, especially during the time when the the wall was coming down in Berlin and the Soviet Union was collapsing and all the different, you know, former Soviet defector pilots that came out that I got to know. And, you know, so I it was an experience that if I had not done something that I wanted to do, I would have missed that, Following someone else's advice as to where my career should go. And then same when I, you know, went back to the f fifteen, I had another assignment was I went to the f eighteen with the navy, and everyone's like, what are you doing? You know, you're leaving. And so, you you know, you're you're not gonna no one in the air force is gonna know what you're doing.
Speaker 2:And I said, yeah, but I get to fly the f 18. I get to learn about the navy, you know, and and, you know, so doing those kind of things, I don't regret any of those decisions. It probably kept me from becoming, you know, maybe a higher ranking officer, but, you know, that that's the choices I made and I'm happy I'm happy because it gave me those experiences. And and and so, yeah, looking back on it, no problem. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was it hard to adjust being the the air force air force lifestyle, like gonna be a part of the navy, where, you know, I've always heard the air force you're staying at the nice hotels and the navy, you it's you're staying on the ship and accommodations aren't the best.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I mean, I was at China Lake, went to Red Cross, California. So it's even more in the desert than Edwards Air Force Base. It's just more Edwards out in the Mojave Desert. So, you know, a 100 it'd be a 120 degrees outside, but you go to the airplane ramp would be about a 140.
Speaker 2:The edge of the airplane where you're climbing up to put your hand would be about a 150, a 160 degrees. If you were wearing a glove, you would scald your hand. It was so hot. But Jeez. But, no, I had such a wonderful experience with the navy because Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I was able to bring things the air force was doing and help integrate that on the f 18. But at the same time, I learned a whole different perspective, you know, from the mission as to how, you know, they looked at it and how they had to do things. And I was able to bring a lot of that back to the air force and help guys understand. This is why navy guys do what they do, and it and that bottom line, you know, you're still one integrated force, and you have to be able to fly and and and work together. And and by having those exchanges, you you have that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, some of my best friends still are those guys I met, you know, in the in the navy those years. So had a lot of fun. Got to shoot a lot of missiles. When you're in a test squadron too, you're shooting a lot of missiles and, you know, testing all the newest stuff and Yeah. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:As we wrap up, you know, people are gonna listen to this, they're gonna be like, wow, he's done some cool stuff. Like I would love to do that or I just love to be successful in whatever it is I do. Do you have, you know, three words of wisdom or like three things that you say to someone that's 16, 17, 18, or maybe they're 30 and they want a career change. Do you have any kind of, you know, three truths you live by or three things you really really recommend that they could do to have a successful career?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, you know, I think we've I'll just summarize some of the things that we talked about already, but I think we've mentioned them, you know, number one is, you you don't get to make other people's decision. I mean, Colin Powell, you know, the great general and secretary of state had this quote, you know, you don't get to make other people's choices. So why do you let other people make yours? And for the longest time, it took me a number of years to realize that, you know, I was doing a lot of things for other people's expectations.
Speaker 2:I wanna do well for my parents. I wanna do well for my spouse. I wanna do, you know, what corporate air force thought I needed to do. And then I realized that but but I'm not now being the best person that I can be. And so, you know, that idea is that you gotta be able to make your own decisions for yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You need to take into account those other things that matter to you, and it's important. But by making yourself the best that you can be and being happy in what you're doing, you become a better person for all those other people that you care about. So I think that's number one. If there's something you wanna do and you have the means to do it, do it, you know, make that choice for yourself.
Speaker 2:Don't put it off. And then that's the next one is that, you know, you can only affect things today in the moment. You can't You can't live in the past and if you can't let go of the past, then it defines you and you don't grow as a person. So let the past go, learn from it, let it go. And then there's those people that are looking twenty years in the future about the, man, Everything they do is to get this goal out there in twenty years.
Speaker 2:And they just fly by living today, all these things that they could be doing today, and opportunities that would make them a better person probably help them get to that goal. But, you know, they're so single mindedly on a future that they they they don't understand that they're missing opportunities that are in front of them today. And so have a goal, but realize it's okay to to go off the path and and bury and so that's when
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I come up with that you gotta live in the moment, living today. I mean, everybody says it, but to do it is something different and and so what what am I doing today to be a better person? What am I doing today to do the things that I really like to do? What am I doing today to let people I care about know that I care about them? So Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, that that that's probably number two. And then number three is, you know, you gotta find fun in the fight. And I think that's what fighter pilots do is, you know, we know how to find fun in the fight. And no matter how hard things got, you know, we still all came together and we did some crazy stuff in our off time and we had fun together. I could tell you stories about burning cars on a runway on a NATO base in The Netherlands.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Shooting artillery flares at it and catching up fire. You know? So I mean, just things that were a chance to unwind, relax and recognize that, yes, things are hard, but you're in it together and you're never on
Speaker 1:your own.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like I said, you're never flying solo. So those would be my three things.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, Kyle, here's a chance. Plug your book too. You know, we we talked probably indirectly, I'm sure we touched on a lot of points that are in your book here, but go ahead and talk about it. Where can people buy it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I stepped down from being CEO of a company in October of last year and kind of third phase of my professional life now is being a consultant and a and a speaker. So but from it, I wrote a book called The Sky Less Traveled, The Maverick Life of Leadership, Resilience, and the Pursuit of Purpose. It's a memoir that talks about those you know, some of the stories we talked about today that, you know, take me from how I ended up in flying and and, you know, the then the lessons that I learned that I was able to carry over in the industry and apply to the aerospace and defense industry that led to great successes there. And a lot of it, it was, you know, how I found purpose and how I made impact.
Speaker 2:And, you know, the bottom line is you don't need to be famous name. You don't have to have a fancy title or position to be someone who can make an impact and find purpose in your life. And so, you know, that's that's my message now, and that's why I talk about my book. It's on Amazon. It'll be out in audiobook here, I think, in August this month or September 2026.
Speaker 2:So people can look it up either as a Skyless Travel or under my name, Kyle Skoliski.
Speaker 1:Love it. Well, Kyle, thank you so much for the conversation. You know, I feel like we scratched the surface on on a lot of topics and could have dug deep on a lot, but it probably would have been a thirteen hour podcast. And my kid will be at at school right now be like, when's my dad gonna pick me up? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:I'm sure we could talk about this forever. But maybe there'll be a time for another one to come on and we can get a little more in-depth about deployments. You mentioned the Berlin Wall, you mentioned Russian pilots, like I'm sure there's a bunch of stories there that could be talked about. So thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Hey, I appreciate you having me, Justin, and I'm very interested in hearing more about what you do as well and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why I like Ohio State football, I always did from a kid on. So you'll always tell me some stories about that.
Speaker 1:Go Buckeyes. Yeah. Well, Kyle, I appreciate your time and, I hope you have a good day. See you. That's a wrap on today's podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for subscribing whether it's a magazine, whether it's this podcast, you know. I really really appreciate it. We're coming up on ten years of me talking into a microphone and it's still as weird as it is on day one. But thank you for listening. Shameless plug again, check out the magazine volume three.
Speaker 1:I still have volume one, volume two, available. So if you wanna those, by all means, they're there. They're great. You keep on your coffee book forever. Pass them down to your kids.
Speaker 1:They're that good. But aviation, hope you're having a great day. And as always, happy flying. The Pilot to Pilot podcast is brought to you by Ground School from the finer points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.