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Tales from the PROS is hosted by Michael Georgiou, Co-Founder, and Eric Lawrence, Director of Growth at Imaginovation, an award-winning app and software development company. Each episode dives into honest, unscripted conversations, hard-earned lessons, and the behind-the-scenes chaos of life inside a tech agency.
If you’re a founder, exec, or innovator trying to navigate the tech world without getting burned, this podcast is your no-BS roadmap. Through real talk, personal stories, and insights from the front lines, you’ll pick up smarter ways to build software, steer clear of common mistakes, and choose the right partners in a crowded, often confusing space.
Whether you’re scaling a startup, driving digital change at a larger company, or just love keeping up with tech innovation, Tales from the PROS brings you straight-shooting advice and inspiration without the fluff.
Michael Georgiou (00:45)
Hey everyone, welcome back to Tales from the Pros podcast. I'm Michael Georgiou, co-founder at Imaginovation, joined by my co-host here and our director of growth, Eric Lawrence. In today's episode, we're going to talk about how there's a growing trend in the startup world. Founders get just enough funding to finally build their product, right? And then they make one critical mistake. They choose the wrong development partner.
These aren't bootstrap founders just winging it. These are people with 50K to even 500K budgets to spend. And yet they burn the runway fast by working with agencies or freelancers who say yes to everything. And I mean everything. They don't ask hard questions and they build without a strategy. In this episode today, we're unpacking why this happens. How to spot the danger early and what it really takes to build something that survives the launch.
and can eventually scale. Eric, what's going on, Good. How's the day going well? Busy as always?
Eric Lawrence (01:47)
Hey, how's it going? Good, good.
Yep. Busy as always. We are getting sweltered over here. We got 90 degree heat. We're just trying to survive.
Michael Georgiou (01:59)
I ⁓
Yeah, I wanted a walk earlier and what I should have done was I should have taken a shower after my walk.
And I walked for like about a mile and I was like freaking drenched. ⁓
Eric Lawrence (02:16)
That's all it takes. I was sweating
in my room.
Michael Georgiou (02:19)
Yeah, you don't take showers, I forgot. I take them like a couple days, Nah, just kidding. Oh man.
Eric Lawrence (02:22)
Yeah.
I'm glad that we're talking about this today because yeah, I feel like there's for startups, there's this sense of false security once they have funding because that's, I think what, what's on everybody's mind is whether they're funding it themselves or they have some friends that go in on it with them or they even get some, you know, VC backing. It's this relief of finally we have the money to spend.
but what ends up happening and we are, we run into these people is when we get phone calls is that they, there are people that go down the wrong path with the wrong developer. And then it's not like, you know, a midsize company where if they screw up on a development project, they can just kind of eat the cost. No, this is everything. So making sure that you make the right decision in the beginning is so critical for just the success of making sure that this gets off the ground. Because if you hit one roadblock,
It can be devastating.
Michael Georgiou (03:20)
Yeah, no, that's spot on, man. It is. Yeah, it's a lot of crazy things that, crazy stories, I would say we've experienced and we've heard from others as well. You know, and I can tell you like, what I've seen is that sometimes when startups have the money and they're so passionate, right? Like, you know, we worked with tons of startups, right? Eric, you know, can't even count how many we've worked with.
many great concepts and ideas out there for sure. And, you know, I, I think when a startup has the, the, funding, is critical, right? That's a critical component, having that investment, that capital to be able to even just start. Right. And, and, and, you know, having a realistic, you know, budget to be able to, to implement whatever, what, whatever they want to, to make an impact, whatever they're trying to do with this, with this idea, with this product.
And I would say that when they have enough money to build, sometimes they can work with a development shop that may not provide the right guidance and the right tools in the beginning. And they kind of all agree to just start because maybe it's cheap. It's, it's they, they, they, they over promise and under deliver to give these, you know, just to, implement a very fast.
build a very fast product throughout the entire project journey. But the key component that I've seen or a big mistake that I've seen is some companies just not giving enough guidance and not planning things properly in the way beginning. And I think we talked about this a little bit in the other episode. We won't get too deep into that, but that's one big thing that we're going to keep reiterating is just planning, planning. You don't have to over plan and go crazy, but you have to plan enough with your team, align on expectations.
and ensure that you're going to implement this thing properly, and effectively, and efficiently.
Eric Lawrence (05:10)
Yeah, I feel like that's the
emotional reality of it is that for a startup, there's the pressure to show progress fast. And then you have that fear of looking slow. So if a company comes to you and says, yeah, we can build this product in 90 days. Of course it's usually if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. So yeah, it's, it's a balance, right? You want to get your product to the market quickly.
but you don't want to rush it because that first impression you make is everything.
Michael Georgiou (05:40)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also key, you know, to validate the idea a little bit beforehand as well. Cause there's kind of that pre validation, that post validation, right? Where a startup, they have a, amazing idea and, and you know, in something that we've, we've experienced that, that does really work. and you know, we, we've done this with magic tasks, which is our own product and all that.
And I think it was very effective for the product where, you know, we would test out the market to see, you know, how they actually engage with the concept and the idea, you know, and to get ideas to ensure that, that whoever they, whoever this startup does choose as a development partner, whether they hire, hire internally or they hire externally, it doesn't matter, you know, that the, product is going to be built the right way.
It won't be perfect because there's no such thing as a perfect piece of software. There's always going to be issues and bugs, right? But they're kind of testing that audience on the concept. So there's concept validation before, right? And that is going to give them the kind of the firepower to get started, to come to that development company with the right concept. And they can just try to work with a good partner that's going to help to fill in that piece of the puzzle for the kind of the
the planning, the design, implementation.
Eric Lawrence (07:03)
Yeah, it's tricky though, because it's chicken or the egg in a sense of at what point do I validate and how much do I need in order to say, hey, this is enough validation for me to go and build exactly what I need. So have you found that there's a perfect balance of, hey, this is the level of validation that you need before you have the money, go build that thing.
Michael Georgiou (07:27)
It is a balance, I think, because you can try to over-validate, where you're kind of testing the idea and the concept, and we're talking about before even building, right? Then there's the validation after to test the audience, you your user adoption after. That's a little bit different. But before even starting on the product, right, the kind of where the concept and idea validation, we've experienced...
I know you've experienced a lot, Eric, I have over the last 14, 15 years, is we've seen many startups that they kind of get overwhelmed with the amount of validation that they feel that they need to do because they're looking for something that's going to be perfect. And like I said, there's nothing that's perfect. And they end up not even starting it. They end up not even building it. They're delaying their dream and it just never.
and never comes to fruition, nothing ever gets built. I how many times does that happen? It's insane, right? So, yeah.
Eric Lawrence (08:24)
It's a lot even worse is when somebody
has the idea they see the gap in the market. They don't take the action and then they see somebody else come out with the idea six months later.
Michael Georgiou (08:34)
Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your question, yes, there has to be a balance. Like I said, I think you can over-validate. you need to validate. it's different for every single concept. It's different for every single type of startup and where you are in terms of where do you want to test it? Is it going to be on Facebook ads? Is it going to be through Google? Or is it going to be through focus groups or whatever, right?
friends and family or, know, so, you know, surveys is another thing. So there's a lot of ways to test and validate before in terms of the concept, but in essence, yeah, there, there needs to be a very good balance there that you have the kind of the, the, the ammunition, the firepower that you need to be able to come to the right developers and, allow them to understand your vision and concept, and then they can give their technical creative guidance and then help.
you plan accordingly. And then obviously the customer will determine if they feel good about that and they can say yay or nay.
Eric Lawrence (09:39)
Yeah. And
one of the things that I think is worth discussing is the cost that can come into play of picking the wrong partner. Because I think everybody looks at it from the monetary loss of, I hired a development partner. They charged me 50,000, a hundred thousand, however much that is to build the product. But there are a lot of other things that come into play. It's not just how much it costs. It's the time it's, it's even just the emotional.
toll that it takes on you. So I think that's something that when you're looking to pick the right partner, of course, we spoke on the last episode, what are some red flags that you should avoid? But I think that's one of the things that we just want to stress is that, you know, when when you're picking the partner, and you have the funds to do this, think of all the aspects that can come into play when you might not pick the right one. So it's super mindful to just be very careful.
about those things.
Michael Georgiou (10:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I like that you're kind of talking about that emotional reality, right? And that's something we've also seen, you know, in just some clients that we've worked with before in the past. And you know, we've experienced the good, the bad and the ugly, and that's just what it is in this world, right? You're gonna kind of experience everything. And I'll tell you, like, I've seen past clients
And I can give like a little story. can't name the exact client, but just kind of a little story about one older client that we built, you know, the kind of a crypto wallet for, right? And a lot of other just very robust, you know, features and it was a very large product, very, very large project. And I remember, you know, they had the funding, which was great. And they were at the same time kind of
wanting to build an amazing concept, which we all believed in. We thought, wow, this could be a game changer in the crypto space. However, even though in the beginning, when we signed them, we were aligning our expectations in terms of how the software journey works. We were trying to educate them, which we try to do with every single customer, and trying to have a very transparent
you know, expectation in terms of the whole process of how a software, you know, product is built, a good piece of software is built and they were on the same page as us, right? However, they still had the mindset that, Hey, we need to build this large robust product and we need it fast fast for, you know, for something really massive fast could be six, seven months, eight months, even, you know, some projects can take much longer. And I'm not saying a
A product bill needs to take two years. No, but the thing is, is you need to be realistic and trust your, your, your vendor who, who, know, you're paying and you're working with day in and day out on, on this, on this piece of software, right? And you need to ensure that, you know, you trust them, that you listen to them. That's very, very important. And I think that, you know, we just had some experiences where they were really trying to go.
very, very quickly with a large product, like I said before. And it didn't seem too balanced, even though we were trying to reiterate those expectations, but it just kind of wasn't sinking. And I think that's something that you want to be very mindful of, is even if you have a lot of money, you need to trust the vendor that you're hiring, because otherwise, why are you hiring them?
And that's, I think that's a critical piece as well. You know, you don't want to, you don't want to have to go too fast where you're rushing something, especially if it's a very, very large application. and you don't want to go too slow. So it's also a balanced approach, you know, but that's just something that kind of came to mind, you know, that, that, that we went through.
Eric Lawrence (13:32)
That's part of the vendor's responsibility too, is challenging you as the startup to be able to say, hey, this isn't realistic because how many times do we run into companies that are wanting to build a very advanced piece of software for two months because they heard somebody on Upwork say that they could do it in two months. I think it all comes down to expectations. That's really why you're hiring a vendor is not just to say yes to you, it's to challenge you to say,
Michael Georgiou (13:36)
Absolutely.
yeah.
Eric Lawrence (14:01)
If you want this done right and you want this done to your expectation, this is what you should expect. And that goes beyond just timing that goes to the design of the system that you're building. You may have it in your head. This is the exact pages I want. These are the flows that I want the users to take. But the reality is, you know, what your vision is may not be the best way that your platform could function. That's, that's why you, you come to experts is for them to
Michael Georgiou (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lawrence (14:30)
say, hey, we've built many different successful systems. We know that this works given the goals that you have for your users. those are just things to consider.
Michael Georgiou (14:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know we we've talked about that many times before, right? You know, the, a customer can choose a wrong development partner and that sometimes can be worse than not having a development partner, you know, cause you can waste all this time and money and effort and resources and it, and it's also, it can be mentally draining too. Right? So that's why it's critical to have the, the, right team around you and doing your due diligence as a customer. Right.
But at the same time on the other side, on our side, being the development company is to challenge the customer and to ask the right questions and to be transparent about the process and set expectations from the beginning and make sure that there's alignment and that you feel that there's trust between both parties. Cause if any of that is broken down,
it could lead to a very clunky, cluttered, a messed up process where no one's happy and it just can be a mess. So you wanna eliminate those.
Eric Lawrence (15:40)
Yeah, you don't want to get eight months into the project to only realize, Hey, this isn't the person I want to be working with because I will tell you it's very difficult for another company to step in to the work that one company has done to try to fix, fix the ship. Oftentimes they're going to tell you that it just needs to be rebuilt in their vision.
Michael Georgiou (15:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, another thing is like, you know, we can talk about here's, just like the cost of rework Eric, you know, that's why it's, it's incredibly vital to make sure that you have the right team in place to support your vision, to implement, you know, your, kind of your dream idea, your product, and you want to make sure that
you're not going to spend a hundred thousand or whatever it be. Right. I mean, we've, we've heard horror stories of customers coming to us from other, from other vendors, right. Where they made very quick decisions to hire a development partner. And then they ended up wasting God knows how much money, know, hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of time. Wasn't remember a couple of weeks ago, we, we, we spoke with a lead that said they were working with some
freelancers, not anything against freelancers. I think there's a time and place for them. I'm just saying in our experience, this is what we've heard, right? However, I remember a couple of weeks ago, you and I spoke with a prospect that said they were working with some freelancers and they spent like two years, three years with them and it's still not even launched. So can you imagine all that money? It's crazy.
Eric Lawrence (17:14)
That's the challenge.
Yeah. For, for bigger platforms to only rely on one person to build, it's going to take time and you don't, you don't want to waste two years down the line only to realize, wow. This is nothing like what I wanted.
Michael Georgiou (17:29)
Yeah, yeah. mean, even a customer of ours, right, that we can kind of mention that, you know, they're an amazing client. Maybe you can talk about strength in numbers. You you've been kind of managing that account and you remember some of the things that they went through, unfortunately, you know.
Eric Lawrence (17:44)
Yeah. Yeah. I remember
John and Caleb, they reached out to us and this was, I think a year ago to this point, they reached out and they tried working with an offshore team and they wasted a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars. And I remembered they didn't just waste that, but over a year and a half. And by the point that we were talking, you could just imagine their head space and their confidence in the industry as a whole. was, it was low. So
Michael Georgiou (17:51)
Mm-hmm.
Crazy.
Eric Lawrence (18:12)
when we spoke with them, there was definitely that little bit of nervousness of, we even want to consider continuing with this idea? And I think that's the place that we want all startups to avoid is that place of you're riding high, you have the funding and then it just starts declining. And it's, that dwindling feeling of we're two years out. We've lost more than half of what we had. Should we even continue to pursue this? And
thank goodness that they had the faith in us. When we went through the process, we laid out what exactly they needed to make sure that the app was what they wanted because where they had gotten with the other agency is that they got to the point where you're in your QA, which is quality assurance, which is that last phase, which is here's everything that we built in the app. We're fixing things. And this is a very easy place that a lot of companies can get into is when you get to that point and you start
testing it as the first user, so to speak. You're like, well, this is broken. And you go and you tell your team, fix this. And then they do it. And then you see two other things are broken and then three other things. And it's just this, this, you know, mouse wheel of breaking, fixing, breaking, fixing. And then they just got fed up and they said, okay, can you guys build this? And we said, yes, but what they've built, there's a reason why it keeps breaking. have to build it from the ground up. And that
Michael Georgiou (19:12)
Right.
Eric Lawrence (19:39)
I remember was a very tough pill to swallow. And this, this was after we had audited the full system. And what we then ended up doing was we had to redo the designs, but when we gave it to them, they were blown away. And then we built it and here we are. They're launched. They're growing the app. And you know, it's, it's, just kind of speaks towards how critical it is because imagine how much
Michael Georgiou (19:45)
Yeah, I remember, yeah.
Eric Lawrence (20:03)
they could have used that initial funding to just go towards marketing it because you as, as, know, a startup, have to think about, it's not just about building it. It's, it's about promoting it. It's about getting it out there so that people can, you know, be a part of that community and help you expand.
Michael Georgiou (20:19)
Yeah, if you don't, you can have the best product in the world, but if you can't market it, then it's just very counterproductive. could be just unknown, right? So yeah, and we'll talk about that maybe in another episode, you know, but yeah, no, it's a great example, Eric, and they're amazing people. mean, we love those guys. They're just, they're a great customer, honestly, and we're very blessed to have customers like that, but we've also...
we've been through a lot of those hurdles and those challenges and those lessons learned of, you know, just trying to do the right things during the whole process when it comes to even just initially talking with a prospect, setting that tone, setting that vibe, setting that kind of that transparency, that process in the way way beginning, and then kind of going through the technical meetings, learning more about their products. And then eventually, you know, if we
started working together, then we go through that flow very nicely as well. But obviously, there's always going to be hurdles and things like that. But it's just about taking ownership as a development vendor and being accountable when mistakes are going to be made. Because you will make mistakes. Our company is definitely not perfect.
Like we make a lot of mistakes here. I would say here, you know, if I was saying, Hey, we, we, we build amazing, amazing products without any mistakes or errors or issues or bugs or it's that's BS, man. Like that's not, it's not possible. There's always going to be problems. However, you got to do it with accountability, honesty, integrity, ownership, right. Own up to any mistakes that are made. And typically, you know, from what
I've seen is they're very good with that and they and trust gets built even more and they're just like, you know, these are real, real people that we can trust and we just love working with them, you know, and those are just things that you learn over time. you know, and I can tell you like with strength in numbers, we, definitely did that. And, you know, I remember they were, they went through a lot of their horror stories, like, just like you mentioned, right. But we challenged a lot of their notions, right. And, and
and just kind of features that should or should not be included in the product, right? At least for this first MVP build. And we aligned on kind of the business outcomes that should be implemented and produced during the product build and even after the product build. And it just worked out very, very well. And keep in mind to backtrack just a little bit, they...
they did validate their idea. They got a lot of influencers to say, yes, this is amazing. And then they kind of went through their own struggles. And then it kind of worked out where we launched a new product for them. So sometimes these things happen, unfortunately. ⁓
Eric Lawrence (23:10)
Yeah.
Yeah. And going to the point that you made about getting a product out there, how quickly should it be? Because I know how many times do we speak with somebody and it's, they have a huge laundry list of things and they're, they're features that seem more like, are we actually achieving what we set out to achieve as, far as like the core mission of this app? So what, what we really aim to do is
Michael Georgiou (23:11)
Yeah, it's...
Eric Lawrence (23:36)
simplify the first version of the app. You may not need to build everything, but really try to accomplish what you're setting out to do, whether that's, you know, a social media app where you're aiming to connect people that are a part of community or whatever that may be. Seek to build that and accomplish the end goal in the simplest way possible, because so often there are things that we could consider as like phase two, but really
When you think about what's happening in phase two, I want to emphasize that you have to surrender control over what your phase two items are, because if you can simplify what that first version is, get it out there, get users on the system, you need to rely on your users to tell you what that phase two items are. yeah, you may say, hey, I would love if there is a leveling or a gamification system in this, but.
Michael Georgiou (24:25)
100%. It's a great point, Eric.
Eric Lawrence (24:35)
Your users may come back to you and say, well, no, we just want the ability to customize our profile. And you're like, I may have not even thought about that. But it's, it's what happens every time is when we build something and we launch it and we try to keep it lean. It's that those first three to six months of gathering people's feedback to be able to tell you what's going to happen next, rather than just assuming, Hey, this is what we need to build. And then you don't launch the product in the
Michael Georgiou (25:03)
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (25:04)
six months time that it could have been and you wait a year
and now you don't have the users and now you're building the feedback only to find out that what you had built was not important to them.
Michael Georgiou (25:14)
Yeah. No, that, yeah, I completely agree. Right. You know, I know Zach Bruno, our chief product officer, who is basically, you know, involved in every, in every project. He has so much experience been with us for over eight and a half years. Hopefully we'll have him on, some episodes. He's, he's, he's good, Zach. He's great. He loves this stuff. He always says things like build smart, launch lean, scale right.
You know, and that's the thing. You want to make sure that when you're in the initial planning of a product, right, with a customer, that you're not just going to accept every single feature that should be built or that they want to be built. And I'm not saying it's this case every single time, but for most cases, right, the sometimes the perspective of the customer and
the vendor can be a little bit different. This is why you have to align very clearly from the way beginning and during the process of design and development that you want to make sure that the right features are built, that their users are going to love and not just all the features. And we talked about this a little bit in bits and pieces earlier, that you want to make sure that based on the validation of your idea, you're building something that your users are going to truly love.
that's gonna make the product to be adopted in the marketplace and then you can grow it and scale it and you know, make your revenue and that's the whole point of these things, right? So it just got to be very intentional and strategic from the way beginning all the way through support, even second phase, third phase and so on and so forth, right? So.
And Eric, I want you to talk a little bit about kind of what our team does in the beginning phase before it's even a paid engagement, just like with some of the documentation and things like that. I think people can find a lot of value in terms of what maybe they can expect in terms of the kind of the way beginning planning stages of a product.
Eric Lawrence (27:22)
Yeah. And really the challenge that we run into is there's a whole planning phase that we go through with a client when we're officially working together and to plan an app. We all know it takes a lot of time. It takes many different meetings and there's really a point where, you know, before we're working, you just have to build trust. have to show in
you know, when you're speaking with somebody, prove that you understand their vision and you know what it is that they're building, but you only have so much time on calls. And especially if, if you know, you as, as the startup are considering, you know, multiple different companies, you only have so much time to speak with each one. So how do you know that they truly understand what it is that you're trying to build? So that's, that's our own challenge is how can we understand the vision enough?
to be able to accurately quote out how much effort it takes, how much it costs, who's going to be involved, what's going to be in this MVP and what's going to be out of scope. So what we really aim to do is we have a deep dive, a technical planning. We loop in our top technical resources, Zach, to be able to speak it through with them and take any documentation that, you know, that the prospect has on their end and then put together alignment docs.
So what we do is we put together a project brief, which just talks about what is the main problem we're seeking to solve with this product? What audiences are we going for with it? What does the solution look like? And then we put together a scope of work, which is more or less what features are in and what's going to be out of scope. And then what does the timeline look like? Those sort of details. So those are what we put together before we ever start working with somebody to just show to them.
Michael Georgiou (28:50)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lawrence (29:10)
Hey, this is what we understand about it. And the reason I'm saying this is because if you're speaking to a company and they just say, yeah, we can do it. Here's how much it's like, well, prove to me that you understand it. I'm not saying like, repeat it back to me, but at least show me some evidence that you understand what it is that I'm trying to build.
Michael Georgiou (29:21)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. those documents I've seen are really critical and the customers end up really loving them. I wouldn't say end up, they love them from just viewing them in the meetings, you know, and it just provides a lot of upfront value in terms of not just trying to work with them, but just how they receive it, right? And how they review and analyze the documents to ensure that.
there is alignment, right, that we discussed before, and that they can trust the partner, the development partner that they are gonna potentially hire. And I think that's also very critical, is showing some tangibles, not just speaking and saying all these things, saying what they wanna hear, right? It's actually putting in some of that upfront work, right, which shows...
you know, some dedication, shows the technical expertise to the customer. And this is before even a paid engagement, right? And I think that's something that, that startups have to, or even any company that's looking to build something and they're looking to hire a partner to really try to have some sort of document, something that can show that this other team knows what they're going to be potentially building. And yes, that will be refined and it could be changed and things like that. But for the most part,
at least in a mid to high level, it needs to be solid.
Eric Lawrence (30:53)
Absolutely. And I actually, I want to take a quick second. I know that we're coming up on time here, but I do want to give a shout out to the sponsor for this. We've spoken about them a little bit, but this episode is sponsored by magic task, the gamified task management system we actually enjoy using. So, you know, most apps that are task management feel clunky or uninspiring, but magic tasks is the opposite. It's clean. It's fast.
and somehow make staying organized feel fun. So whether you're juggling personal projects or leading a team, helps you stay focused without the usual friction. So we use it at Imagineovation to run our projects and keep everything moving. And honestly, it's become a part of our daily to do. So check it out at magictests.io. It's worth a look. And I want to throw it back to you, Michael, if there's any sort of final thoughts that you have on this topic.
Michael Georgiou (31:45)
I think we've done a good job of giving a really good, thorough overview in terms of just what we're kind of talking about today. I would say my advice would just be that you've got the capital, protect it, be intentional, be strategic, have a balanced approach with it. don't need to...
Go one side of the spectrum to the other, be too slow or too fast, have that balance, right? It's very, very critical. And choose people who care about what you're trying to build, not just building it fast and cheap. So if you're not sure what to build first or who to trust, take a step back and just go from there. And that pause might save your whole product, honestly. So that would be my advice. But no, this is great, man.
Eric Lawrence (32:34)
great advice.
Michael Georgiou (32:35)
Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I think a lot of people will find value from this and that's the whole point of this, of this podcast, just to others to be inspired and learn a little bit. And if can, can help one person that we've achieved our goals. we appreciate all of our listeners and viewers. yeah.
Eric Lawrence (32:51)
Yeah, I'm just hoping to get less phone calls of people who have wasted tens of thousands of dollars. If we can do that, then we're doing something right.
Michael Georgiou (32:56)
Ha
Yeah, yeah, no, of course, man. Yeah. But I appreciate Eric. Thank you everyone for listening. This is your host, Michael Georgiou from Imaginovation and co-host, awesome co-host Eric Lawrence here. And until the next episode, until it's from the pros, we appreciate you guys. Thank you so much.
Eric Lawrence (33:17)
Take care guys.