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In Ask Ashley, Founder, Thoughtleader and award-winning media personality Ashley Russo sits down with leaders who bring purpose and humanity to business.
Each episode explores how people navigate uncertainty, lead with empathy, and create meaningful change in their organizations and lives. Listeners gain practical insights on resilience, leadership, and financially confident decision-making amid disruption.
This podcast is brought to you by Ask Ashley. If you’re interested in building a confident, purpose-driven wealth plan, reach out to Ashley at ashley.russo@nm.com.
welcome to ask Ashley the podcast
where we shine a light on the unsung heroes
of the workplace I'm your host
Ashley Russo financial AI board member
thought leader and wealth management advisor
each week we sit down with inspiring leaders
exploring their journeys
motivations and the real challenges they face
from job insecurity to the evolving role of AI
in a world where many feel overlooked
these guests
are building hope and connection for their colleagues
join us as we uncover their stories
and discover how they're making a difference
one conversation at a time
okay I'm gonna ask you to please introduce yourself
so everyone can learn about you
hello I am Kafi Payne
I am director of human resources
and originally from Guyana South America
I've moved around a lot
but currently live between Atlanta and Oakland
awesome well
can you share a bit about your early life journey
and how you know
we've had a conversation
you move between countries and cities
how all of that helped the way you see the world
how you interact with others
absolutely
being born in Ghana and we moved to Trinidad early on
and then to New York and then from New York to Atlanta
and this was all you know
before the age of 16 um
and then after college I moved to the West Coast
and so I was I am used to being the other
the one that talks a little bit different
sounds a little bit different
acts a little bit different
and I think what that does is
really makes you hyper aware of
what do people expect
and you just learn to kind of pay attention to people
to learn how things go what are the rules
whether people say it or not
even if you're wrong
but you just learn how to really pay attention
and I think whether as an educator
which is where I started my professional life
or personally
you just learn how to pay attention to people
and I and I love people
so it all kind of worked out well
and you you just mentioned that
you know you started as an educator
how did you go from an educator to moving into HR
and tech what was that
what was that transition what motivated that
when it comes to a professional journey
I can't even say like
I couldn't even have designed it
did I know that I was going to head into tech
HR from being a middle school teacher
absolutely not no way
but everything everything made sense at the time
I think
it was really about saying yes to different things
um you know
as a teacher saying yes to a leadership position
um'cause it really started from being in the
my own classroom to supporting new teachers
and I knew that
I knew that being a new teacher was hard
and so when the opportunity to help other new teachers
came up of course yes
I wanna help and from there
learning about coaching learning about leadership
and when I was asked to step into a leadership position
I said yes and then when another opportunity came up
I also said yes so I think it just
there was a series of yeses that brought me here
and I'm really thankful for that
hmm you
you said something initially
you said you felt like the other
and it sounds like there was a lot of moving around
you were it sounds like the new kid all the time
I'm curious how that experience affected you
in your leadership style
so professionally as well as personally
well I think
you know I have to thank my parents too
because I think my parents are also people that said
yes as well
that when things became hard
or when there was an opportunity that came up
they would just say yes
I want this opportunity for my children
I want this opportunity for my family
and even though it's hard
and even though it is gonna be a sacrifice
I'm gonna do it and so
I'm thankful for my parents for that
because I think it instilled me
instilled in me a sense of courage
a sense of why not that
a sense of there isn't a need to suffer
when we could do something about it
and so I think that that
that does drive me and being the new kid again
you really are paying attention
but it also gives you a sense of humility and empathy
of what it feels like to be the other
of what it feels like to not quite fit in
and to make space
I'm thankful for the people who made space for me
and allowed me to be different
or to welcome me
and I wanna make that opportunity for others
or support others in that space to be who they are
and be the new kid and recognize that like hey
come on in
we were all the we were all new at some point
so welcome join us
I love that and I know that that translated into
I believe an internal app at
at your current company that you created
can you tell us a little bit about that
and I imagine this was some of the motivation
I am I am super excited about it
it means so I mean it's it's silly
but it's also significant
so I created an app an internal app in our company
it's not our HR information system
so it's not the serious stuff
it's not about like
your Social Security number and your date of birth
and your job title and salary
this is all fun stuff fun stuff
but also other stuff too so we include big life events
we include hobbies interests
fun quirky things um
anytime we have a conversation
we try to write it down so that we remember it
so that we can have authentic interaction
so that when I'm going into a meeting with someone
I could just like
what was the name of this person's daughter
like and how old are they again
like wait they're turning 2 soon or you know
or at the same time
like remembering this person's father passed away
passed away around this time
so how are they feeling let me try to check in
and that also came from being an educator as a teacher
I would write down everything
every interaction anytime a young person said
you know I this is my favorite candy or um
this is my favorite restaurant
just anything that I can make a connection with because
and I remember particularly when I was a new teacher
when you're a new teacher
you don't always have the skills to be like
you need to behave in my class
you need to pay attention because I'm a great teacher
but you can get by a little bit with a relationship
okay just listen to me
give me some Grace because I care about you
and so that kind of trained me to um
to develop these relationships and to keep track
you know
if you have 130 students as a middle school teacher
high school teacher on your you know
in your in your classroom over five or six periods
you wanna be able to remember what those things are
that's special about those students
even when I would make phone calls to um
to parents I wanted parents to know too
that this is not just any kid
that these are some things that I know
but there's also some things that I don't know
and I wanna learn from you
so I definitely take that into my experience as a HR
director that for me all of our employees
they really matter they really matter
and we cannot do this without our employees
we cannot do it without their service
and their hard work um
and their creativity so the least I can do
the least that we can do
is to know a little something about them to
to pay attention um
and to document
so that they know and we know that you matter
this is important the big things
the small things and so that
and if there an opportunity comes up
that we can be more personalized
that we can honor them in a way that reflects
the things that they actually like
and who they are I'm the
we wanna do that we wanna take it
you know um
I've chilled because you're
you're talking about being seen right
you're talking about really seeing people
it doesn't sound you know
from your education experience to now
it sounds like you're really engaging with the human
and making sure there's they're seen
and who doesn't want to be seen
you know
it feels like that's forgotten in corporate culture
so it's a beautiful beautiful thing to do
so I'm curious obviously
you know your company's experienced rapid growth from
I think you shared with me
women fitting all in one card
having three or four large tables
which I love so with that type of scaling
with that type of growing
what have been some of the challenges
what have been some of the learnings
I mean so many challenges
so many learnings both as a company for me personally
um it's such a
it's a journey
I was telling our chief operating officer
and one of our one of our
we had a beautiful retreat at this gorgeous resort
and everything was so perfectly curated
and so professional and when I started with the company
there were only about 15 other employees
and there was a group of about
seven of us that joined at the same time
on the same day and it is so different
I mean
we'd all just kind of eat lunch together on most days
um
when whenever there was a sale
they would just ring a gong in the office
and everybody would kind of cheer
so we are in a very different place
and it is it is so exciting to be a part of that
that journey I recently went to a conference and I was
someone asked me for my email and
you know it was my first name at our
at our company and they were like
oh you
you know you have that kind of email and I was like
yeah yeah
I have the the first
I don't even have the first name dot last name email
so you know
it's just really exciting and to
to watch the company grow
and to be a part of so many different pieces of that
I mean it truly is an honor
it really is an honor and exciting
so you clearly emphasize the importance of belonging
and just safety even through this growth
how do you I'm curious
with that type of growth with that type of focus
how do you balance it
how do you maintain it as the company continues to grow
absolutely it continues to be what anchors us
and anchors me in this work
Christine Wong Yap talks about belonging
um
and belonging relating to being seen and feeling safe
and how do you do that as a company grows
it is so so
so important
and are we going to do it perfectly all the time
maybe not but that is what drives us
and it starts in the first week of the company
where we talk about belonging
you know we talk about what does it mean to belong here
and how everyone plays a role in belonging
and everyone plays a role in helping someone else
to feel safe and seen and heard
which that's not a lot to ask for to feel safe
and that could come in a lot of different ways
I mean obviously from a new employee perspective
they need to feel safe safe
safety in the sense that am I gonna get paid on time
is this job and the expectations around it
is it what I was told it was gonna be
so there's a there's a communication aspect
there's a a structural aspect of making sure that
things are in place for employees
and then there's a consistency
because for our new employees
and our veteran employees
we need to show that consistency right
like what we if what we say and what we do don't align
that's not okay and people will pick up on that very
very quickly I feel like as humans
we are sensitive to gaps in alignment like that
and to tell us am I safe or not
we are keenly aware when we walk into a space
am I safe here
can I be myself or do I have to mask in some way
what does safety look like
who who is elevated who is not
who gets thanked who doesn't get thanked
um all of those things we don't
we don't even need to think about
it just is like an operating system
that happens for all of us
and so when those of us are in leadership positions
how can we be very intentional
about the spaces that we create for others
because we have the ability to help to
to shape that and create that
so we wanna do that with intention hmm
I love that there's a saying
I once heard that leaders bring the weather right
so you can make it a beautiful sunny place or or not
and I love the word safety
and that's so interesting to bring in
and important to bring into a work environment
because think I mean
we want safety in our personal lives right
why wouldn't we want it in our professional lives
and the more safety there is
the more we can expand and grow
and that's such a a missed element
and that's so incredible that it's such a focus
I think that's amazing safety is super super
super important
I fundamentally see workspaces as learning spaces
because if you cannot
learn in your professional environment
that's not good for the company
that's not good for your professional development
we now in this world of AI
and there's so many things that are changing
so many different tools that we're being asked to use
that is a learning event
and so people need to be poised to learn
and one of the things that we know about learning
both for adults as well as children
is that learning requires a level of safety
and not even like you know
it needs safety and it needs risk
because asking people to learn is risky
learning is risky talking out loud is risky
so
how do we create an environment where people feel safe
to take risk where people feel safe to say
I don't know about that
or I need some more learning or support in this
or I I just don't know or I tried and I failed at it
because otherwise if you don't have safety
then people will hide that
they will just not say when they failed
they will just fake it they will not get the support
or ask for the support that they need
so how again how do we create
systems and spaces where people feel safe
to take risks
that's so fascinating because you're correct
what a good call out
because it is risky to put yourself in a new position
to learn right
I mean it's all correlated
and how do you create that safe environment
where someone feels safe enough
to take the risk of putting themselves out there
to try something new to learn to expand to grow
what an interesting correlation
I'd be curious based off that
if you could teach every leader one soft skill
besides the obvious what would that be and why
I would have to say hard conversations
I think the default for many of us is being nice
not having conflict not wanting to rock the boat
and
and I think that you can have hard conversations safely
and so how do we learn to do that
and how do we practice doing that
because again if we as leaders um
and for everyone in our community
everyone in our professional community
when we hire really smart people
and we do we hire incredibly smart people
and the thing about hiring
incredibly smart people is that
they want feedback and they can
they know when the feedback is not rich
they know when the feedback is garbage
they're like hmm okay
you don't know what you're talking about
and they know kind of if they're smarter than you
like if you're not giving them any feedback at all
then they know like yeah
you don't know you don't
I'm not sure you know what you're doing
or maybe I know more than you
so it's like we need to cultivate environments
that have challenge in it
that have learning in it that where we can see people
we see their work and we can give them feedback about
both about their work and their output
as well as their attitude
and their leadership development
and so how do we gather data
and how do we share that data that says like
I see you I see your work
I'm paying attention to you
and here's what I see
and here's where I see you growing
and not from a place of like
I'm picking at you but from a place of
I see your future and the talent that you have
and the purpose that you have
and it's bigger than what you have here
and so yes go for it
go bigger more
I know you got this I know you have it in you
and that requires some hard conversation
sometimes that requires saying
not good enough in a way that people can hear
and it's not always like
and it's not about that sandwich that's like hey
just want to let you know you're amazing
you're so amazing but here's this piece
but you are amazing no
no no
we don't do that because everyone knows that sandwich
everyone knows like wait
what don't
don't give me that BS
because I know what's about to come
start with the data here's what I noticed
I saw this I saw this
I saw this this is what keeps coming up
this is this is what happens when we don't have this
this is what happens
this is the outcome because of this
here's where I think this can go
here's what I see as a possibility
what's your sense of what
what's going on here what's your sense of your ability
to manage this on your own
what are some ways that I can support you
it feels like a lot of transparency
and it goes back to what we were discussing earlier
that if you got the safe environment
you can have these tough conversations right
and and really be transparent
which actually propels someone forward
it's not hiding behind the compliment sandwich
which I love that's funny absolutely
absolutely absolutely
I know we talked about this last time about I um
I I'm a dancer
I love dance so much
I mean I
I dance every single day multiple times a day sometimes
and particularly today I had a ballet class earlier
and the culture of ballet is the culture of critique
that when you're in a ballet class
if you're teacher is not giving you feedback
it's probably because you either
you don't take notes well or
or you don't fix things when they are brought to you
or you're just so bad that it's kind of like
just don't don't don't even worry about it
just just
so in our ballet culture getting feedback is a gift
when the teacher is like hey
do this better pull up here
lift your leg higher that means you are being seen
that means that the the teacher sees in you 1
your ability to do it better
and 2 that you can take that critique
put it into your body and have better output
and so that is that's my that's my thing
give me feedback how can I do better
I wanna do better tell me more
tell me where we're not aligning
I love that to see that as a positive right
to see cause so many people can take feedback as oh
I'm doing something wrong
but I love what you said there in terms of ballet and
and dance that feedback is given
and energy is given at the end of the day
to those you feel you can help grow versus ah
we're too far gone I'm not gonna even take the time
I mean that's
that's an interesting
that's a really interesting perspective
and I think that can really help people reshape
feedback that comes to them
I'd be curious then looking back on your journey so far
what would be one lesson or mantra that grounds you
especially in a moment in time like this right
where we are navigating through some uncertain times
is there anything
that brings you back to that powerful place of feedback
seeing right
is there anything there I mean
I've had some great mentors
and an incredible mentor and friend
Laura Lipton from her I remember always hearing
be more curious than judgmental
so that drives me how can I be more curious
even when somebody is doing something that I don't like
I'm just like
instead of just being like just writing them off
it's like hmm
what's the driver of this
what's gonna make what makes this person act this way
not do this like what questions can I ask
what observations can I make
how can I pay more attention
how can I be more curious to get to the answer
sometimes I think I know in this age of like
we could just like you know
Google something or put it into an AI model and just
you know spit out this answer
but it's like how can I understand more
what questions can I ask what data can I gather
how can I learn more to get a better perspective
to get a richer perspective
and I think that ultimately that drives a
a better sense of intuition
so I know that a lot of my intuition and this work
which I I feel like is very solid
a lot of that is driven by being curious
and continuously learning
you know you mentioned AI
and it's interesting
there's so much fear out there with AI right
what's interesting about everything you're saying is
even with being able to put something in some random
you know and get
get the output and move through it so quickly
it's the human experience
it's the human interaction
it's the human element that we just can't replace right
and that could help some people in their current fears
right now with the
in their minds with the robots taking over
it's the human effect right
that is truly not replaceable
yes I mean
some of us are old enough to remember
kind of like the beginning of the internet
when it was a wild Wild West
I mean it was
it was scary I mean
some of the conversations that we had about it was like
I don't know what is this thing
how are we gonna use it and it is a little like wonky
it's I don't know
it's but
and it continued to grow so yeah
how do we we can't be driven by fear
but I think we can
be driven by curiosity and a sense of ethics and
and integrity
so not scared of it at all cause it's just like alright
let's go let's be curious
what things do we need to be mindful of
how can we use it
how can we use it to make the world a better place
so let's go let's do it love that let's go it's here
it's here no hahaha that's fair so okay
here's my my final question
and it's a question I always love to ask
if you can say something to your younger self
whether it's advice or anything
knowing all that you know
been go
having gone through everything you've gone through
and being in the position you're in now
what would you say to your younger self
oh what would I say to my younger self
girl you got this hmm girl
you got this
I love that I love that I would not change anything
you know you have
you have these twists and turns
and which is probably why
you know even with little ones
I don't ask what do you want to be when you grow up
because who cares
and I'm still asking that question of myself
as a grown up and the idea that somebody who is 7
can have any idea what is going to be their future
like it doesn't even matter
it doesn't matter you're gonna make choices
and every step of the way you're going
to come to a place where you have to say yes or no
or which direction will I take
and you're gonna take it
and it will lead you down someplace
and you're just gonna keep going and it'll be fine
hmm that's a beautiful thing to hear
in a moment in time like this
I'm sure for a lot of people listening yeah
there's twists and turns and it will be fine
maybe you take a turn you didn't necessarily expect
but it will be fine right
keep on moving forward and do it with kindness
as you clearly illustrated
absolutely I heard someone say
you know everything works out in the end
and if it's not working out right now
that means it's not the end
that's good Mike drop
we just keep going
I love it Mike drop moment
well thank you so much for your time
I truly feel I know I'm inspired in your presence
it's amazing to hear your journey
it's amazing to hear your reflections right
and there's a lot of takeaways
that we can all take into our life
there's a few pieces
I'm gonna take back to my life today
so thank you for being you Ashley
such a pleasure talking with you
you know when we first connected
it was like OK
hello bestie like what
it just immediately
so it's always a pleasure talking to you
so thank you
thank you so much for having me here as your guest
thank you again