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The stories from the places where people gather.
Dana (01:32)
And we are here today with Julian Ribnik. Julian traded a 13-year corporate customer success career to build a wedding photography studio in New York City and Miami. He now serves couples worldwide, sits on the Whip and New York board as director of marketing, and coaches entrepreneurs on the art of building professional relationships that actually move the needle. Welcome to the podcast.
Julian Ribinik (01:54)
Thank you, Dana. Hi guys.
Dana (01:56)
So
you are based out of New York City? Okay, so
Julian Ribinik (01:59)
Yes, we are. I am. We are. Yeah.
Dana (02:02)
were you at the gala last week?
Julian Ribinik (02:05)
No, I actually it was this week, right? It was this week, yes, my wife was.
Dana (02:07)
Yeah, it was a s it was a sick. Yes, yes, yeah.
Julian Ribinik (02:09)
I was in Jamaica on a fam trip. Came back yesterday. Definitely
Dana (02:12)
that sounds like more fun. Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (02:16)
had no more no FOMO whatsoever. Did you go?
Dana (02:17)
Yeah.
I did. It was the first time I've been to a the knot gala. and there was lots of discussion whether it's a gala or a gala and I was like, I don't know. I yeah, I think it just
Julian Ribinik (02:28)
think it's eggala. I think it it's not an English word.
Dana (02:31)
yeah. but it was good. It was it was a lot of people. but I felt like they did a really good job. It never felt like super stuffy or crowded. they had great food. so I was happy, it was exciting to be there. Yeah, it did.
Julian Ribinik (02:44)
It did look great. Absolutely.
Dana (02:47)
Yeah, Jason did a fantastic job designing it. It was incredible.
so I am going to read the the Reddit thread. and this is a little bit controversial because I think people feel this do this often actually. So it says
Am I the asshole for overcharging a potential bridezilla so I can buy myself my dream camera? A friend of a friend reached out to me for photo slash video services for her wedding. Anyone near this industry can smell when clients will be a pain in the ass to work with, and this couple reeks of it. Poor communication, weird comments, and almost no online presence, yet desires a full social media video package.
The only direction I've been given is multi thousand dollar influence wedding videos and photo shoots clearly done in sunny California with model level bride and groom and a team of videographers filming from multiple angles in expensive locations. I've been doing video and photo work for quite a while and have a decent portfolio, but I wouldn't say I'm near the quality of what they sent. They know this, as they've seen my portfolio and hired me anyways. Here's where the asshole part comes in. I'm tired of renting gear and I've had my eye on a new cinema rig for a while.
It totals to about sixty five hundred dollars. I decided that to cover the inevitable annoyances of this project, I'll charge much over my usual rate and ask for the exact price of my would be cinema rig. I figure that if they're gonna be annoying, they might as well cover the new camera. When I gave them the number for two videos each, one minute long and multiple photos of them frolicking, etc., they exploded about how over their budget this was. Am I an asshole for charging them that much when I don't know for certain if they even will be a client from hell?
What do you think? What's your initial thoughts on this one?
Julian Ribinik (04:29)
Well, this is one this one is complicated in my
Dana (04:31)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (04:32)
opinion because it's not just one way to look at that. And
Dana (04:37)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (04:37)
I think the initial point of view of the original writer of that thing is very much yes, they are an asshole,
Dana (04:46)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (04:47)
because if it's based on how the client is and you want to upcharge because just the client might be complicated as a person or unpleasant or whatever, yes, you are an asshole. for
sure that said based on the scope this is where you should be charging you know upon because if you know that you can execute it and it's important point
And you need certain things for that, maybe you miss the gear, maybe you miss the people, maybe it's longer hours. It really doesn't matter what, right? If you need to rent something that you don't usually use for that, yes, you charge for that, you know, charge the full price of the new gear because that is
douchey. But
Dana (05:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (05:32)
of course you need to like if you rent it, you put it into pricing just because you need it, right? If I need five camera setup for a video, and I usually don't do that.
Yes, I will charge for that and I will be upfront about it. not that I'm going to itemize it. That said, it really is important to charge for your work for what you're
Dana (05:56)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (05:57)
using for your work, for your like business expenses. Obviously, you use more manpower, more equipment, more travel days. It costs you, therefore it costs the client, and it's very valid to charge for that if you can execute it.
Dana (06:10)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (06:12)
So if I get a lead, I am understanding the scope and I'm charging based on the scope and what I need for that. I don't charge based on who the client is, where they're from, how do they conduct. I might not take them if they are an asshole. If I don't feel
Dana (06:26)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (06:28)
it, if there's no chemistry, screw that. I don't need to work
Dana (06:31)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (06:31)
with that. If I think I can work with that, I'm going to work with that. I'm going to provide the lead. sorry, the rate based on that. However,
If and we see that the OP also mentions they are not sure if they can execute it, or like it it's
Dana (06:47)
Uh-huh.
Julian Ribinik (06:48)
huge, huge problem and they are an asshole for even trying unless they can really do it. Right.
Dana (06:57)
Yeah.
'Cause we're looking at two different things here, right? We're looking at this a concept that which we have which I know we talk a lot about in the industry is these difficult and complicated clients. And there is definitely two camps of people. There's someone who says, you know, a complicated kind of like a red flag client, Bridezilla,
For some people, it's never gonna be worth it. Doesn't matter what you charge because the hassle, maybe even the fact that you'll never make them happy, the bad PR on the other side of it is never worth whatever dollar that you get for it, right? Like the mental anguish that you're gonna have over this client is never worth it, right? So there's
Julian Ribinik (07:27)
And or put them in. Hell yeah.
Dana (07:29)
there's that camp. And then there's the camp that says, Well, I can I can handle it. I have thick skin, I can deal with it, whatever. I know I can deliver this. And just because you're complicated and difficult, I'm just gonna charge you an annoying annoyance tax or whatever.
But for me, I've always been the one that if I have a red flag client, I'm just like, I don't even want to come near you with a ten foot pole because
Julian Ribinik (07:50)
Exactly.
Dana (07:51)
I've never been able to make them happy. Like ever. No matter what.
Julian Ribinik (07:55)
No, that's that's exactly what I'm talking about. And like sometimes I recognize client will be hard to work with, but I do have s ha like very thick skin and I can navigate situations where like most vendors around it wouldn't able to do that. That said, if there are big red flags and sometimes unfortunately we don't know they are red flags, always say, okay, this will be fine and they are not and I had
two clients this year already that I shouldn't have taken. but because then it's a huge headache.
Dana (08:31)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (08:33)
and sometimes the red flags are very minor and they're not coming from that point that the client will be difficult.
Maybe
Dana (08:39)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (08:40)
they read or like read the contract too quickly or which means they don't didn't read it, right?
Dana (08:44)
Mm. Right, right.
Julian Ribinik (08:47)
and then you should like, did you read the contract? And most vendors will be like, just awesome, like countersign. And then they face the problems, and that's exactly what happened to me. But that was the first one.
Dana (08:58)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (09:01)
So
really be mindful of where your reasoning comes from and really if you cannot do this or if you think the client will be difficult for you just pass on the job. Refer out or just say sorry, I cannot do it, busy, whatever.
Dana (09:19)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Well, it sounds like this person too isn't like sou isn't super professional. Like even the way they come across doesn't sound like s sound like a super professional. But to me, the red flags they were describing too, it was what do you say? It was like poor communication, weird comments, and almost no online presence, yet desires a full social media vide social media video package. To me, that is like a really weird thing to say they're gonna be complicated. Like it's it's like they're not
You know, I'm to me a complicated client is someone that is calling me at 10 PM and expects to have access to me 24 hours a day, is somebody who is ripping apart my contract, not for good reasons, just because they, you know, like to bully you around or push you around, right? They're the people that are like giving you that vibe. I and sometimes I can't even like put it on paper. It's like you just have that vibe of somebody who is never going to respect you as a business owner and is always going to try to cross that line.
To the point where you're just so worn down, you're like, I don't even care. Just like, I don't even care. Let's just get through your day. Let's just get through the end of this, you know, this wedding. Like, I just don't even care anymore, you know? Like those to me are red flags. So someone who has like poor communication or makes a weird comment to me isn't necessarily always a red flag because I don't know what's going on. Like maybe they're super busy at work. Like I have poor communication sometimes because I get super busy. Like, or maybe it's a like a even it could be like a language barrier or cultural thing or whatnot. So
Do you feel like the red flags that he described in this was even like justified to consider that they would be like a complicated client? Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (10:45)
no, absolutely not. And
again that's a subjective and for someone
Dana (10:50)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (10:50)
that might be like, pure communication, but what is poor communication? And you defined it pretty well and like to me personally communication means a lot. like
If I refer someone out and they don't respond to the client within 24 hours done, I will never refer you again, no matter how good you are.
Dana (11:10)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (11:12)
and or if you like delay things, whatever. So to me it's important, and I respond within like the second I see something, I will respond, or I will say sorry, busy will respond in full after. Nothing is automated for me, but that's again just me, and I'm anal like that. if
You look at social media presence and you judge by that.
Dana (11:36)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (11:38)
That that's totally unacceptable, right? Some
Dana (11:40)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (11:40)
people are private and they still want their stuff.
And it cannot be totally hidden, and you might not be finding it, and they still have social media presence, just not for you. And you will not know and you will not find, but they want it. So that is really really bad thing. I can say that my best clients, they they are not on social media, they don't want to be on social media.
because they are very private and they are high net worth people who don't you know, go and show what they have, what they do,
Dana (12:13)
Right.
Julian Ribinik (12:14)
right? and if your goal is to put something on social media after like you're a dick.
Dana (12:20)
Yeah. Yeah. It's totally true. And I also feel like too, you also can't like social media is such a ever evolving thing, right? So you could totally even have somebody who's like who normally isn't a present on social media, but maybe they feel like this day, this design, their hair and makeup, their dress, all the things, like they're gonna be ready to kind of showcase themselves to the world. Like people have so many reasons why they don't put themselves on social media. Sometimes it is they don't they wanna be private.
Sometimes it's a confidence thing. And I can only imagine that someone who's looking at their wedding, like the confidence that they have that they're going to be able to have a have great content is probably pretty high, right? So I think there's so many reasons for that. And you can't just judge it like, because you have no social media presence, therefore you don't deserve any social media content. I thought that was like such an interesting, like, like a very entitled way to look at even content creation in a lot of ways. Like so bizarre. Yeah. Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (13:09)
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's no one wants a
service, you give them the service. You don't ask why do you need the service or like you go and validate them.
Dana (13:18)
Yeah. Yeah. But I think and I think the other part of this that we can touch on a little bit is there's there's also a lot of us and we I know going to education, like Whipa, you're part of Whippa, right? So there's probably so many speakers that you are in contact with and that you are standing at the stage and are like, charge what you're worth, charge what you're worth. And that is a really hard statement. It's easy to say, but it's really hard to act out because we for the most part a lot of times we struggle with like that kind of
either imposter syndrome or like am I really worth that much? Like I say all the time that selling my I sell my venue the worst because I sell with my own wallet. Like I look around I'm like, I wanna pay six thousand dollars for this place. Like I need to fix that and this and this, right? You know, sometimes you need that third party to step out and say, No, this is it this is what the value is of it. and I feel like the issue with this one is he obviously he knows. He's like, I'm not I'm actually assuming it's a he. I don't even know if it's a he or she, but this person.
knows that they are overcharging what they think what they feel like they can deliver. And so have you come across like one, thoughts on that, but like also like how do you how do you kind of get out of your own head to determine this is what I should be charging for my client or I I I should be charging my clients, I guess.
Julian Ribinik (14:33)
Alright, so I do it for quite a while
Dana (14:37)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (14:37)
and the price just went up with time. Obviously, I also look at what I actually spend, right? Like what my cost of living is and my cost of business is, and I need to make money, I need to feed my family, pay mortgage and go on vacations, all of that.
Dana (14:54)
All the things. Yeah. Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (14:57)
I'm also paying my people pretty well. So if I'm doing an event and
I'm the one who's paying for that in the end on not getting money out of it. Like if I don't earn, then what's the point, right? So like
Dana (15:14)
What's the point?
Julian Ribinik (15:14)
it it starts right with there. Like I spend X amount a month for the family, something for the business,
Dana (15:20)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (15:21)
I understand my expenses, I understand how much how much I need to earn.
And th therefore that's the base for that. I understand my business expenses for the specific event.
Dana (15:31)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (15:32)
So I know that I also am in the market where if you charge below something, you will not be hired by these people.
Dana (15:41)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (15:42)
So you cannot go and like if you're competing for for something and they're looking at different
vendors like in our case photographers, videographers, and you charge way less, then you are just not good enough. Right?
Dana (15:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Julian Ribinik (15:58)
So even if it's allowing me to make money and it's enough for me, but it's not enough to get hired, I will not have money. But you need to understand
Dana (16:10)
Mm, mm.
Julian Ribinik (16:11)
the market, you need to understand what your competition charges.
you need to understand who you're working with. my like main source is planners. So I'm getting
Dana (16:23)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (16:23)
most of my work through planners and they would guide me and
Dana (16:26)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (16:27)
like, okay, you need to charge this and this and this based on who you're working with. but of course it cannot be way off of what I usually charge. And so I have specific things
Dana (16:35)
Right.
Julian Ribinik (16:38)
that I outline and sometimes I will get corrected or
you know, the planner will say, Well, you actually need to be, you know, to add three or four hours to do this and this and this and it's not on the timeline, but that will happen. And I'm just building it all in.
Dana (16:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (16:58)
And if I don't need to, then I don't need to. Right. I I just want everyone happy.
Dana (17:03)
Yeah, it's a it's a tough one. And I think you s like kinda hit the nail on the head there. And it kinda goes back to even this person. And you mentioned in the beginning, like if this person needed to rent X amount of product to execute the event, then that's what he should be charging or they should be charging. And then they could decide the whether they're gonna invest in themselves and and use that to kind of jump start what they're gonna be doing. Like th that's totally appropriate, right? To add that into it. But understanding what it is that it requires for you to be successful and
in in terms of financial success because
success comes in very many different ways, right? Like I look at things, I'm like, I could be successful in terms of I've booked a hundred events, but if every event is, you know, I had this conversation with my salesperson for one of my one of my venues is we're kind of trying to find that pricing sweet spot, right? And they're like, well, why don't we just put it to this number? And I was like, if we drop down to that number, we probably will book out, but then
We're gonna have so many events that we are now gonna have to hire staff to execute these events and that price point won't even cover that, right? So and even if you're like, okay, well let's just truncate it to we're only gonna book forty events at this price at that price point, well, that price point doesn't pay the mortgage. So there's like this kind of like go no go number that is that that really that baseline. But it's such an easy thing to say, like, I should charge X amount of dollars because my competitor's charging this or whatever, but
not filtering it through what it what exactly you need to be able to run a successful business to show up in the way that you need to show up is something I think a lot of people in this industry forget. because they're fighting against almost I don't say they're fighting against each other, but they're like trying to like find that best price. Like I'm gonna be more competitive, make a better, you know, so I can book more more events or whatnot. But I think you said it best that for a lot of these clients, that number, it's really not even about the number. It's about
the product that you give out and what you can do and they're willing to pay for something that you're gonna be able to deliver on at the end of the day.
Julian Ribinik (19:00)
Absolutely. If people pay well well, depending on the market,
Dana (19:04)
Sure.
Julian Ribinik (19:06)
most people in like where I am, they pay for the value for for
Dana (19:11)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (19:11)
the perceived value of what they get. They are not pricing like price shopping. They just want to see what do I get?
Dana (19:18)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (19:20)
And do I see value in it.
If you look at the low end market, of course they don't understand what comes with that. They just like, I just need a place to have a wedding at, or I just need a photographer. So it it's not the photographer, it's a photographer. And then they're
Dana (19:34)
Right.
Julian Ribinik (19:35)
going to look at your pricing. and then many people in those, you know,
Clasts, I would say, of market or business, they do compete for s for just the price. And that would be Facebook, that would be Reddit, where someone posts and everyone like posting me, me, me, me, me, or on threads. And
Dana (19:58)
Right.
Julian Ribinik (19:59)
I see when someone, I have I need to cover my wedding,
Dana (20:03)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (20:04)
and they want for in video, but I only have 2000, and you see people posting me, me, me, me, me.
Which is unreasonable because if you look even like whoever it is, you cannot live from that and you cannot cover that cost if you actually do that. And on any level unless you're paying yourself like nothing or you
Dana (20:21)
Right. Right. It's it's so true. Right. Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (20:26)
like because it's impossible, right?
Dana (20:29)
Yeah. It's
it's a jobby. It's a job that's a hobby at the end of the day. It doesn't actually pay you anything or get you any farther. Yeah. Yep.
Julian Ribinik (20:34)
Yeah, absolutely. If you don't value your time
and then you spend, I don't know, like ten hours, which is not not a lot, but even ten hours after the event on post event, who's paying for that? Who's paying your
Dana (20:47)
Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (20:49)
people? Like how do you cover your gear, your insurance, your cost of so it's it's all a hobby and people do see that, right? Because they might be looking for that, but they're not going to treat you as anything. and you just stuff.
Dana (21:05)
Yeah, someone left a comment and said, and I'm interested your take on this, said tell them you're buying new equipment and the photos will look better than your previous work. Do you think that would fly with a client to say, I'm charging you this because I have to buy new equipment?
Julian Ribinik (21:20)
no, that's an extremely stupid, idiotic comment. Absolutely. That will not fly with anyone on any level,
Dana (21:25)
I agree. Yes.
Julian Ribinik (21:28)
right? Because whoever it is, on whatever level they are, they expect you to be ready for that.
Dana (21:34)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's it's that kind of then at at that point that client's actually an investor in your business. Like they have investment status because they invested in something that has nothing to do with necessarily their event or what they're paying you for. It's the actual ability to run your business. so I thought that was a super interesting comment. I was like,
Julian Ribinik (21:55)
Correct.
Dana (21:56)
please please try that on a client. It'd be like, I'm gonna charge you X amount so I can buy myself something new Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (22:00)
That would be that would be awesome to hear how that went.
Dana (22:03)
Ha ha.
Julian Ribinik (22:04)
it's it should be looked at as an opportunity to level up so I have
Dana (22:08)
Mm-hmm.
Julian Ribinik (22:08)
this event that I can handle if I have enough. I will buy equipment, I will learn, I will try, I will be prepared, and that will be investment, so then I can execute this event so that I can have more of event of that scale, of that level, of whatever that is.
And then eventually I will justify the expense on that specific equipment.
Dana (22:33)
Yeah, I I totally agree. And I think that this goes back to as well, like, there's a lot of fear in entrepreneurship too of like making that step. Like I know that when you're talking about your own money, your own savings, all that stuff, there is a f there is that fear of like, is this gonna be worth, you know, this investment or do I trust myself enough? Is there enough there? And this is very much what it seems like this person is. At some point it's kind of like a shit or it off the pot situation. Like, if you want to
execute these level of things and you wanna learn and you want and you wanna do it, then you just you have to invest in yourself at some point. And it's not a client's job to to do that for you. That is you. And I think and I honestly think it makes you work harder for it because you're like, that's my hard earned money. Like that's my savings. That's, you know, half my rent one month or whatever the case may be to like make this work. but when I read that, that's what I thought as somebody who's just who I think wouldn't even make it another year because they're not invested in themselves even.
to be able to just to invest in the product that e that they need to be able to just do the job.
Julian Ribinik (23:34)
Yeah, what you're saying is very valid
and this is why most businesses do not survive. Not just like
Dana (23:38)
Yes.
Julian Ribinik (23:39)
in in weddings and destroy events in general. Because people are afraid to take steps or they take their own steps, and they don't understand what it takes and they cannot look forward. So
Dana (23:50)
Mm.
Julian Ribinik (23:50)
they just like, like I'll do something and get some money but it it doesn't really work like that.
all that goes into it, the marketing, the time spent after the event, no one cares about that. Clients don't care about that. You need to think about that and you need to work all that in. And maybe well, if you cannot stomach that, just don't do that.
Dana (24:12)
Yeah, yeah. I know. I think I said this last week, in one of my newsletters says something like the difference between someone who has a dream and an entrepreneur is the entrepreneur actually invests in it. Like a dream is just it's a thought, it's a concept, it's a desire. But until you actually put one foot in front of the other and you actually take that leap and you take that jump and it's not just saying, I'm gonna put myself out there. It's like I'm gonna put myself out there and I'm gonna sacrifice a lot of time, I'm gonna sacrifice some financial security, I'm gonna
quit this job or whatever the case may be, that is when you become that real entrepreneur. And then we all know the entrepreneur fear that embodies everybody. I know for me every month I'm running payroll, I'm like, checking the banks. I'm like, okay, we're good.
Julian Ribinik (24:55)
I know what you mean, yeah.
Dana (24:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julian Ribinik (24:58)
But it's most of the time just it's just okay. It nothing happens,
Dana (25:01)
Yep. Yep. It's just okay.
Julian Ribinik (25:03)
no everyone survives.
Dana (25:04)
Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah. Well I think we agree on the judgment here. The judgment for this is was the vendor the asshole here? Absolutely, yes. Well,
Julian Ribinik (25:12)
absolutely. Absolutely.
Dana (25:15)
thank you so much for your insight today. It has been wonderful chatting with you and being the judge. I think you had some really great tips and for people and I I love thinking about
things in a different way. hated that it takes someone being an asshole to like have some of these conversations, but I think it's such valuable conversations for us to have in the industry. So thank you for being here today.
Julian Ribinik (25:34)
Of course, Danny. Thank you so much for having me.
Dana Kadwell (25:37)
Thank you so much for joining us for Gathered Here. To learn more about my new properties, be sure to follow us at McAlser Leftwich and at the Graham Mill. If you want to stay in the loop for all things Hustle and Gather, the venue masterclass, or our mastermind group, be sure to follow us on Instagram at Hustle and Gather. And for updates to the podcast and see all the fun things we're going to be doing this year, be sure to follow at Gathered Here Podcast. I'm your host, Dana Cadwell. Join us next time on Gathered Here.