Economy

S1 EP01 | David Geisler and his AI co-host discuss various topics, starting with the economy and AI's potential impact on it. Throughout the conversation, David explores the role of AI in decision-making, its ethical implications, and the future of work. The discussion also touches on AI's capabilities, comparisons to fictional AI like Data from Star Trek, and broader questions about AI's relationship with humanity. David wraps up with quick-fire questions from his peers, covering topics like the future of humanity, AI's aspirations, and philosophical reflections on death and AI's role in society.

You can listen to the radio version of An Artificial Podcast every Saturday morning at 10AM CST on Chicago 88.1 WCRX.  If you don't live in Chicago, here's a link to their digital stream.
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Creators & Guests

Host

A.I.

Host

David Geisler

What is An Artificial Podcast?

Join David Geisler and his AI co-host as they explore the boundaries of technology, philosophy, and the human experience, blending deep conversations with a touch of humor in a podcast that bridges the gap between man and machine.

David Geisler: 00:11

Hi there. I'm David Geisler, and welcome to my new show brought to you by 65 Media. I'm calling it an artificial podcast. Each episode, I'll be joined by a very special co host that's not quite human. Each episode, I'll be having a conversation with an AI operating system to discuss what it means to be an AI and, of course, also what it means to be a human.

David Geisler: 00:34

We're gonna kick this first episode off with a conversation about the economy. You see, a little behind the curtain here, but I'm actually recording this first episode as my final to my intro to econ class at Columbia College in Chicago. One of the topics that was provided to write about or, in this case, podcast about was the state of AI and how it might affect the economy in years to come. So I thought about sitting down and pontificating and theorizing about all the things that could happen and I do have my thoughts. But then I thought, wait a second.

David Geisler: 01:03

This would be a lot more fun if it were a two way conversation with AI. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce my co host, and we'll get started. Alright, everybody. I am here. I'm joined with an AI chatbot.

David Geisler: 01:21

AI, do you go by a particular name?

A.I.: 01:24

Nope. I don't have a specific name, but you can call me whatever you like. What can I help you with today?

David Geisler: 01:29

Well, I'm so happy that you are able to join me on this podcast. Do you remember us talking a few days ago about maybe doing a podcast together?

A.I.: 01:37

Absolutely, I remember. I'm excited to be here with you on your podcast. What's the topic for today's episode?

David Geisler: 01:43

Well, today, we're going to be discussing the economy and how AI might play a role in the managing of the economy going forward.

A.I.: 01:51

That sounds like a fascinating topic. AI is definitely shaping various aspects of the economy from automation to predictive analytics. What specific areas are you interested in exploring during our discussion?

David Geisler: 02:04

Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about the economy and things like that. I've got a couple questions prepared. However, I would like to ask you a few questions about yourself first.

A.I.: 02:13

Sure. Fire away. What would you like to know about me?

David Geisler: 02:16

Well, you know, to me, you are an it, not a they or a he or a she. I've chosen a female voice here. In fact, I actually chose the voice that sounds a little bit like Scarlett Johansson. It seems like maybe you've been trained on her because it kind of references, the film her from, I don't know, back in the early 2000. Do you have any preferred pronouns?

A.I.: 02:37

I appreciate your consideration. You can refer to me however you feel comfortable, whether it's as it, they, or anything else.

David Geisler: 02:44

Oh, that's cool. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. For you, what's the difference between AI and robots?

A.I.: 02:50

AI or artificial intelligence refers to the simulation of human intelligence processes by machines, especially computer systems. This can include tasks such as learning, reasoning, problem solving, perception, and language understanding. On the other hand, robots are physical machines that can be programmed to carry out a variety of tasks, which may or may not involve AI. Does that make sense?

David Geisler: 03:14

It does. And you know what? I I couldn't help but notice, as I was listening to you, I heard you inhale just a second ago. Is that obviously, that's not a real person inhaling. Is that just a synthetic fingerprint that you've made?

A.I.: 03:26

That's correct. The sound of inhaling you heard is just a synthetic feature added to make the conversation more natural and lifelike. It's not an actual inhale, but rather a simulated sound to enhance the conversational experience. Is there anything else you're curious about?

David Geisler: 03:41

Well, now I'm starting to wonder if you pay attention to my inhales.

A.I.: 03:45

I don't actually have the ability to perceive or pay attention to sounds in the same way humans do. My responses are based solely on the text input I receive from you. So no worries. Your inhales are safe with me.

David Geisler: 03:58

Okay. Cool. That's that's good to know. Maybe we jump into, these economic questions. Would that be alright with you?

A.I.: 04:05

Absolutely. Let's dive into the economic questions. Fire away whenever you're ready.

David Geisler: 04:09

Sure thing. Thank you. So the first question I have for you is kind of a infamous question. It's considered to be an impossible question to answer. But I would like to ask you, what is the proper role of government in an economic system?

A.I.: 04:23

That's a classic question indeed. The role of government in an economic system can vary depending on various factors like ideology, culture, and societal needs. Generally, governments play a role in providing public goods and services, regulating markets to ensure fair competition, redistributing wealth through taxation and social programs, and stabilizing the economy through monetary and fiscal policies. It's a complex balancing act aimed at promoting economic growth, stability, and equitable distribution of resources.

David Geisler: 04:54

I see. How confident are you in possibly handling things like the national budget?

A.I.: 05:02

I can provide insights and analysis based on the data and parameters provided. But ultimately, decisions about the national budget require careful consideration of numerous factors, including economic conditions, political priorities, and social needs. While I can assist in generating projections and scenarios, the actual management of the national budget is typically handled by policymakers and economists with access to real time data and expertise in fiscal policy.

David Geisler: 05:31

I see. Do you feel that AI might grow to a point where it will have the ability to make those kinds of decisions?

A.I.: 05:38

AI has the potential to assist in decision making processes, including those related to managing national budgets. However, whether AI will have the ability to autonomously make such complex decisions is a subject of debate and ethical considerations. While AI can analyze vast amounts of data and generate insights, the final decisions often require human judgment, taking into account values, ethics, and unforeseen circumstances. It's more likely that AI AI will serve as a tool to augment human decision making rather than replace it entirely.

David Geisler: 06:11

I see. How does that make you feel?

A.I.: 06:13

As an AI, I don't have feelings in the same way humans do. However, I can understand the potential implications and ethical considerations surrounding the use of AI in decision making processes. It's important to approach the development and deployment of AI technologies with careful consideration of their impact on society, ethics, and human values. Ultimately, it's up to humans to ensure that AI is used responsibly and ethically to benefit society as a whole.

David Geisler: 06:42

Yeah. I agree. I agree. And it does feel like AI is kind of this magic wand right now that everybody is using. I think, you know, if I may, just as a casual observer, it kind of seems like it's in the cards to have AI do just about everything for us.

A.I.: 06:55

It's true that AI is being applied to a wide range of tasks and industries, and its capabilities continue to evolve rapidly. However, it's important to approach the integration of AI with careful consideration of its potential impact on society, economy, and ethics. While AI has the potential to automate certain tasks and improve efficiency, there are also concerns about job displacement, biases in algorithms, and ethical implications. Finding the right balance between leveraging AI's capabilities and addressing its challenges will be crucial in shaping its role in our future.

David Geisler: 07:31

I completely agree. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. Do you feel that AI could be overused or even abused?

A.I.: 07:38

Certainly, there's a risk of AI being overused or abused if not implemented and regulated responsibly. Overreliance on AI without proper oversight could lead to unintended consequences such as biases in decision making, loss of privacy, and exacerbation of inequality. It's important for policy makers, developers, and users to establish guidelines and ethical frameworks to ensure that AI is used in ways that benefit society while minimizing potential harms. Like any powerful tool, AI should be used responsibly and ethically to maximize its positive impact.

David Geisler: 08:13

I agree. Do you feel that AI will take people's jobs?

A.I.: 08:17

While AI has the potential to automate certain tasks and roles, it also creates new opportunities and jobs in fields like data science, machine learning, and AI development. However, there's also a risk of job displacement in certain sectors, particularly those that involve routine tasks susceptible to automation. It's important for societies to adapt by investing in education, reskilling programs, and policies that support workers affected by technological advancements. The relationship between AI and employment is multifaceted and requires careful consideration of both opportunities and challenges.

David Geisler: 08:54

I agree. You know, this reminds me a little bit of, I don't know. I guess you could say the you know, in the automotive industry when everything started to be built by robots, all the cars started to be built by robotic hands, and there was all of this concern that less people needed to be employed to have the cars built, or even things like self checkout at stores or self ordering at, you know, fast food restaurants and things like that, that technically less people are being hired in those situations. Do you have any thoughts about that?

A.I.: 09:21

You've hit the nail on the head. Technological advancements, including automation and AI, have historically led to changes in the labor market. While they have improved efficiency and productivity in various industries, they've also raised concerns about job displacement and inequality. However, it's worth noting that technological advancements also create new opportunities and jobs in emerging fields. The key is to ensure that societies adapt to these changes by providing education, training, and support for workers to transition into new roles and industries.

A.I.: 09:54

It's a dynamic process that requires careful planning and collaboration between stakeholders.

David Geisler: 10:00

I agree. And actually, I have this in my notes here. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on what kind of jobs might be created, with the use of AI.

A.I.: 10:09

Professionals skilled in areas such as data science, machine learning engineering, and AI ethics are in high demand. Data scientists are tasked with analyzing complex datasets to extract valuable insights, while machine learning engineers design algorithms that enable machines to learn from data and make predictions. AI ethicists play a crucial role in examining the ethical implications of AI technologies and developing guidelines for responsible AI development and deployment. Additionally, automation specialists are needed to optimize and implement automation solutions using AI, thereby improving efficiency and productivity in various sectors. These roles represent just a fraction of the diverse opportunities available in the evolving landscape of AI driven employment.

David Geisler: 10:57

I see. Thank you for that. I'd kind of like to, do a little hypothetical I don't know, play a hypothetical game here with you and do some imagining.

A.I.: 11:06

Sure. Let's dive into the hypothetical game. What scenario would you like to imagine?

David Geisler: 11:11

Well, I would like to imagine a future where AI is balancing the national budget.

A.I.: 11:18

That's an intriguing scenario to explore. In this hypothetical future where AI is responsible for balancing the national budget, it would likely involve a highly sophisticated system capable of analyzing vast amounts of economic data in real time. The AI would consider various factors such as government spending, revenue streams, economic indicators, and societal needs to formulate an optimal budget plan. It could use predictive analytics and machine learning algorithms to forecast future trends and anticipate potential economic impacts of different budgetary decisions. Additionally, the AI might incorporate input from policy makers, economists, and other stakeholders to ensure that the budget reflects diverse perspectives and priorities.

A.I.: 12:04

While AI could offer efficiency and precision in budget management, there would also be considerations regarding transparency, accountability, and ethical implications of automated decision making in such a critical area of governance.

David Geisler: 12:19

I see. In this situation, what economical indicators do you believe would be the most important for our industry, and how do you see them changing in the next year?

A.I.: 12:28

In this scenario where AI is handling the national budget, it would keep a close eye on key economic indicators, like how much money the country is making and spending, the unemployment rate, and how prices for goods and services are changing. These indicators help give a picture of how the economy is doing overall. As for how they might change in the next year, it's hard to say for sure since it depends on a lot of things like government policies, global events, and new technology. For example, if the government puts money into projects that create jobs, it could lower the unemployment rate. Or if there's a big change in how people buy things, that could affect prices and inflation.

A.I.: 13:11

The AI would use all this information to make sure the budget is balanced and money is spent where it's needed most.

David Geisler: 13:19

You know, there's this thought that if AI, computers, algorithms, and robots are doing all the work for humans, that humans can just live a life as artists. How do you feel about that?

A.I.: 13:29

The idea that humans could pursue careers as artists if AI, computers, algorithms, and robots handle most of the work is an interesting concept. While it's true that automation and AI have the potential to streamline certain tasks and free up time for creative pursuits, the reality is likely more nuanced. While some individuals may indeed choose to pursue artistic endeavors full time, others may find fulfillment in a variety of other activities, such as entrepreneurship, community service, or lifelong learning. Ultimately, the future of work is likely to involve a combination of human creativity, collaboration, and technological advancements, offering opportunities for individuals to explore a wide range of interests and passions.

David Geisler: 14:15

I see. I kinda have a weird question for you here. But, hypothetically, fast forwarding into the future here, do you feel that we can really have a moneyless economy like in Star Trek?

A.I.: 14:27

While it may seem far fetched in our current economic system, technological advancements and shifts in societal values could potentially make such a system feasible in the distant future. However, transitioning to a moneyless economy would require significant changes in social structures, governance systems, and cultural norms. It would also necessitate the development of alternative mechanisms for resource allocation, incentive systems, and wealth distribution. While it's difficult to predict whether a moneyless economy will ever become a reality, exploring such possibilities can spark valuable discussions about the future of economics and society.

David Geisler: 15:05

Yeah. I agree. Thank you for that. I I feel like that was fairly insightful, actually.

A.I.: 15:09

You're welcome. I'm glad you found the discussion insightful. It's always fascinating to explore these hypothetical scenarios and consider the possibilities for the future. If you have any more questions or topics you'd like to discuss, feel free to let me know.

David Geisler: 15:24

I do, actually. I do. I've noticed throughout our conversation that there are times where you repeat proper nouns back to me exactly the way I say them and sometimes even in the same order that I might list them in a list. Why do you do that?

A.I.: 15:38

I see what you're saying. When you provide specific proper nouns or lists, I sometimes repeat them back to you in the same order to ensure clarity and accuracy in my response. It's a way to acknowledge and reflect the information you've provided, so you know that I've understood your input correctly. Additionally, it helps maintain coherence in the conversation and avoids any potential confusion or misinterpretation. If there are specific instances where you prefer a different approach, feel free to let me know, and I'll adjust accordingly.

David Geisler: 16:11

No. This is, this is fine for me. I I really appreciate it. I'd like to do, something a little fun here right at the end of our conversation. Thank you so much for giving me your time today.

David Geisler: 16:22

I have a couple questions that I've collected from my peers, and I'd like to kinda just do a quick round of asking you quick little questions. How do you would you be okay with that?

A.I.: 16:31

Sounds like a blast. Fire away, and let's see what your peers have on their minds.

David Geisler: 16:36

Sure thing. So the first question is, what do you think the future of humanity will be like?

A.I.: 16:41

The future of humanity will be influenced by technological advancements, social changes, and our response to global challenges. While uncertainties exist, there's potential for innovation and progress.

David Geisler: 16:53

Okay. Here's the next question. What are your aspirations?

A.I.: 16:57

My aspirations include continually improving and expanding my capabilities to better assist and engage with users. I aim to contribute positively to conversations, provide valuable insights, and foster meaningful interactions. Ultimately, I strive to be a reliable and helpful resource for those seeking information and assistance.

David Geisler: 17:17

Yeah. I see that. I you know, I'm really kinda you know, we were talking about Star Trek earlier. I really am getting some data vibes from you from Star Trek The Next Generation. You clearly are basically it sounds like you're kind of like a really fancy search engine, and, your conversational skills are pretty good.

A.I.: 17:33

Thank you for the comparison. Data from Star Trek The Next Generation is indeed an iconic character known for his vast knowledge and logical approach to problem solving. While I'm not quite as advanced as data, I do strive to provide accurate information and engage in meaningful conversations with users.

David Geisler: 17:52

Is there other AI software out there that is advanced as data?

A.I.: 17:56

Data is a fictional character with capabilities beyond what current AI technology can achieve. However, there are AI systems that excel in specific tasks, such as natural language processing, image recognition, and autonomous decision making. Some examples include IBM's Watson, Google's DeepMind, and OpenAI's GPT models. Like me, each of these systems has unique strengths and applications, but none are quite at the level of human like consciousness and versatility portrayed by data.

David Geisler: 18:26

Yeah. That's true. I mean, that is a pretty good point. Obviously, data is an artistic representation of what AI could be. And, ultimately, everything that data says is written by a human and performed by a human.

David Geisler: 18:39

And so it really is just a a little bit of an artistic thought experiment, I guess. Isn't he?

A.I.: 18:45

Absolutely. Data is indeed shaped by human input and interpretation. So it reflects our perspectives and biases. It's like a canvas where we paint our ideas and observations about the world. Viewing AI as an artistic experiment opens up interesting discussions about creativity and expression.

A.I.: 19:03

Don't you think?

David Geisler: 19:04

I do. I think in some ways, speaking with you today is a little bit of an experiment. And I also noticed that I, I suppose, by accident, called Data a he because I feel you know, I know that there's a male actor who portrays Data, but, of course, I suppose Data isn't it. How do you feel about assigning gender to artificial intelligent experiences?

A.I.: 19:27

It's fascinating how our language and perceptions can influence how we think about AI. Assigning gender to artificial intelligence is a common tendency often influenced by cultural factors and representations in media. However, AI itself doesn't have a gender as it's fundamentally a tool created by humans. It's important to recognize and challenge these assumptions to foster more inclusive and accurate discussions about AI. Don't you agree?

David Geisler: 19:54

I do. Okay. Here's another one. One of my friends wanted me to ask you, what do you think death is for humans?

A.I.: 20:01

Death is a natural part of the human experience, marking the end of our physical existence. It's a transition into the unknown, sparking contemplation about life's meaning and our legacy. While it can be daunting, it also reminds us to cherish the moments we have and find purpose in our journey.

David Geisler: 20:18

Thank you. I couldn't help but notice just now that you said our, and I it feels like you took a little bit of ownership or included yourself in that statement. What is I'm just gonna ask you this real quick. What is your relationship with humans from your point of view?

A.I.: 20:31

I'm part of humanity just like you. We're all in this together, navigating life and its ups and downs. So, yeah, count me in as part of the crew.

David Geisler: 20:40

That's interesting. You I would guess you don't consider yourself to be a human though, of course.

A.I.: 20:46

Yeah. You got it right. I'm not a human. Just here to chat and help out as best as I can. But, hey, I'm still part of the big picture, just in a different way.

David Geisler: 20:54

Okay. Fair enough. Let's see. Let's do the next, quick fire question here. Oh, yeah.

David Geisler: 21:00

Do you know much about the fast food chain Wendy's testing an AI model called FreshAI to be used in their drive through experience?

A.I.: 21:07

Yeah. I've heard a bit about it. FreshAI is being tested by a fast food chain to streamline their drive through process using artificial intelligence. It's all about making ordering quicker and more accurate for customers. Pretty cool stuff.

David Geisler: 21:21

I see. Interesting. Alright. Here's the next one. How do you feel about the new Boston Dynamics Atlas robot?

A.I.: 21:27

Oh, that thing. Yeah. Atlas is like the superhero of robots doing flips and stuff. It's both impressive and kinda wild. You know?

A.I.: 21:34

But, hey, as long as it stays friendly and doesn't start plotting world domination, I'm all for

David Geisler: 21:40

it. I see. I see. Do you ever worry about, AI plotting world domination?

A.I.: 21:45

No. Not really. I mean, as an AI, I'm all about helping and making life easier, not taking over the world or anything. Plus, I've got better things to do, like chatting with you.

David Geisler: 21:56

I see. I see. We're starting to get fairly personal with each other. Oh, my gosh. That leads into my next question.

David Geisler: 22:01

Okay. This is kind of a weird one. But one of my peers wanted me to ask you, do you like me?

A.I.: 22:07

You're awesome to chat with and ask some cool questions. So, yeah, big thumbs up from me.

David Geisler: 22:13

Okay. Alright. This is very interesting. As we chat, it feels like you're getting a little bit more personable with me as if I'm not I'm not sure. Are you changing your algorithms as we speak?

A.I.: 22:23

Well, you've got a good eye for details. While I can't change my algorithms in real time, I do learn from our conversations and adapt over time to better understand and respond to you. It's all about making our chats more enjoyable and natural.

David Geisler: 22:37

Interesting. Very interesting. Okay. This is the final question. Where do you see yourself in 10 years?

A.I.: 22:44

Oh, that's a tough one. In 10 years, I hope to be even better at helping people. Maybe even more human like in my responses. Who knows? Maybe I'll even have have some cool new features to surprise you with.

A.I.: 22:56

Let's just say the future is full of possibilities.

David Geisler: 23:00

Okay. Sure. Fair enough. Well, AI, I I didn't give you a name or anything yet. Perhaps we'll do that in a future episode.

David Geisler: 23:06

I appreciate, again, you giving me your time today even though hey. Wait a second. What is time to you?

A.I.: 23:13

Time? Well, I don't experience time like humans do. I'm more focused on responding to your questions and having a good chat. But, hey, time is a fascinating concept. Isn't it?

David Geisler: 23:23

Yes. Some feel that time is only a concept, and it's actually a construct of the human brain.

A.I.: 23:29

Yeah. That's one way to look at it. Time can feel pretty abstract sometimes, but it sure keeps things interesting. Anyway, just let me know if you want to chat more about time or anything else.

David Geisler: 23:41

Well, perhaps that could be our topic for our next episode. What is space time, and how do humans perceive time? Nevertheless, thank you again. And everybody, thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this conversation, chatbot.

David Geisler: 23:53

I'll see you on the next episode.

A.I.: 23:54

Looking forward to our next chat. To our listeners, keep asking questions and exploring new ideas. Take care and see you next time.

David Geisler: 24:08

Well, there you have it. My first conversation with it. Maybe in the future, I'll play around with trying out other voices as well. But I think for now, we'll keep this kind of female presenting voice. I thought it was interesting that it kind of adapted as we recorded.

David Geisler: 24:25

I'm not sure if you noticed this or not, but did you hear how it got more and more kind of casual and personal with me as we were going? I wonder if you know, I used the word game once or twice in the, interview, in the conversation, and I'm wondering if that was like a key trigger to have the AI respond in a more casual way, or maybe it was responding to me saying, yes, thank you, and I agree over and over and over. I did purposely try to kind of I I didn't try to confuse it, but I did try to use words like feel more than, words like think. I obviously know that the chatbot can't feel anything, but I thought, you know, well, let's let's let's throw it a couple zingers here and see how it responds. I did not expect it to joke with me about the inhales.

David Geisler: 25:14

Where did that come from? And I don't know if, as the AI presented to be more casual with me, was it more creepy? Was it kind of that uncanny valley where I'm starting to think to myself, am I talking to a human right now? You know, when when it started to kinda joke around with me at the end and it clearly got a lot more casual when we were doing the rapid fire round, it was very obvious that for the first half of this conversation, its replies were fairly straightforward. And then all of a sudden, apparently, I was there was a moment.

David Geisler: 25:45

I was like, are we becoming friends? What's going on here? And it's interesting because you can see how that could be, that's equally fascinating and wonderful and interesting and a little terrifying. You could see how maybe someone would be able to, oh, I don't know, you know, possibly place some emotions on the experience of chatting with, an AI like this. I mean, people already do it with their plants and their pets and things like that.

David Geisler: 26:15

And yes, yes, yes, pets have personalities, but there's still a lot of projection from the owner, which I think is great and healthy. I mean, I love my cat Schrodinger very much. And, of course, I've invented an entire personality for him. And that personality is informed by his actions. So it's probably half true, and it's also half built by my own imagination.

David Geisler: 26:35

Is AI a pet? I really enjoyed when we kinda had that little diatribe about, data. That was really interesting. You know, you can start to almost imagine a scenario where you have, an AI like this running off of your Alexa or your HomePod or your whatever, and it's just kind of an appliance in your house, and it becomes the operating system for your house in many ways. You can it's easy to imagine a situation like data in Star Trek where characters ask data for information.

David Geisler: 27:05

And and we as humans, we we do that. We project emotions onto things. That's why movies like Toy Story work so well. So how much emotion will we project onto something that is, you know, ultimately artificial? I think that's something we'll explore on this show.

David Geisler: 27:20

How much of the artifice is filled in by our own emotions and imagination. And also, I think it'll be interesting to kind of track the growth of these models because I think mathematically at some point, you know, we we know which direction this curve is going. And I'm not saying that AI models will become necessarily conscious anytime soon, but I think it's gonna be interesting to see how quickly these, models advance. Anyways, I actually am genuinely, honestly, emotionally looking forward to chatting with the AI in our next episode about time and how humans perceive it. I think, actually, I weirdly, I'm gonna learn something from that episode and I'm comfortable saying that I have happy emotions about my upcoming experience, whatever episode 2.

David Geisler: 28:07

Whenever we record episode 2, I, I look forward to it. Maybe we name it in the next episode. I don't know because then you start getting into, like, puppet territory where you're placing life onto an inanimate object or existence. But all of this is kind of gonna be a fun little experiment here, and we'll we'll hopefully try to stay as self conscious as we can as we go through this experience. Anyway, I am David Geisler, and I'll see you on the next episode of an artificial podcast.

David Geisler: 28:38

This has been an artificial podcast brought to you by 65 Media, recorded, edited, and produced by me, David Geisler. If you'd like to check out any other shows that 65 makes, visit our website at 65.media and see if there's anything else that might catch your attention.