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Matt and Sean talk about Oracles, Asteroids and Marriage, in Star Trek TOS Season 3, Episode 8, “For the World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky”
Matt and Sean talk about Oracles, Asteroids and Marriage, in Star Trek TOS Season 3, Episode 8, “For the World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky”
- (00:00) - - Intro
- (02:16) - - Viewer Feedback
- (04:28) - - Today's Episode
- (05:13) - - This Time in History
- (15:47) - - Episode Discussion
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Creators and Guests
What is Trek In Time?
Join Sean and Matt as they rewatch all of Star Trek in order and in historical context.
Sean Ferrell: Today on Trek in Time, we're going to talk about the noises you hear echoing about on the inside of an asteroid. Oh, wait, is that what we're going to talk about? No, I don't think so. Those are just the noises that are taking place in my apartment because people are fixing a leak. Welcome, everybody, to Trek in Time. This is, of course, the podcast that takes a look at Star Trek in chronological stardate order, which means we've worked our way through Enterprise, Discovery, Strange New Worlds. We've taken a couple of breaks to take a look at the new shows when they've been broadcasting, but we're back now with season three of the original series. Who am I? And who is this we? And why am I thrown? I'm thrown because there are men fixing a leak. I mean, I can't hammer on that hard enough.
Matt Ferrell: Oh, Sean.
Sean Ferrell: Ah, sorry about that. Who am I? I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi. I write some horror. With me, as always, is my brother Matt. He is that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. Matt, how is the leak in your home going?
Matt Ferrell: It's not leaking at all, Sean.
Sean Ferrell: Oh, it's just me.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, it's just you.
Sean Ferrell: All right, that will be hopefully my last reference to this, unless I hear what sounds like a plumber falling down the stairs, in which case I will probably abruptly leave the room, but I promise I will come back. As I mentioned, we're going to be taking a look at the echoing sounds within an asteroid. That part was true, because today we're going to be taking a look at the episode for the World Is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky. And as always, we're also going to take a look at the world at the time of original broadcast, which means we're going to be talking about November 8, 1968. Before we get into our conversation about this episode, for the World Is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky. I love saying that title. It is a title that when I was a kid, I found it so evocative. I really, like there was something about like a super long title that I was like, ooh, look at that. This is one of the ones. I love thinking about it. But we'll get into that in a minute because we always like to revisit the mailbag and see what you've had to say about our previous episodes. So, Matt, what have you found for us this week?
Matt Ferrell: There's a couple comments I wanted to highlight. The first one is from the Ironwaffle about the episode the Empath. He wrote this is among my favorite episodes. I'm hoping for an empathic review, but this could be torture in 2026. One never knows.
Sean Ferrell: That's right.
Matt Ferrell: Thank you, Iron Wolf. There was a. I didn't take a screenshot of it, but there was a nice long chain between some other folks talking about the episode. And it seems like this episode did resonate with a lot of people for me.
Sean Ferrell: I said it when we discussed that episode, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it because I remembered having such a strange response to it as a child, but as an adult, I thought it was really, really an interesting one. So, yeah, thank you for, for that comment. That's wonderful.
Matt Ferrell: And then finally, Sean, Wrong answers Only for the Tholian Web. Mark Loveless, Plot of the Tholian Web, the Enterprise crew encounters an alien named Tholian Web while out exploring a new populated planet called Quaid. Mr. Web has a particular quirk of weirdness about him in that when he farts, the smell is repulsive to human males, but immensely attractive to human females. He is brought on board as a diplomat, as this planet is one that the Federation wants to join them. Focused on the high protein diet while aboard the enterprise, Mr. Web tries to take over the ship by farting and ensnaring the female crew members or repelling the male ones. Spock, it seems, is immune to the smell that uses the nerve pinch on Webb and gets him off the ship. It turns out that while not unheard of, Web's condition in quotes, is rare for Quaid's. And a different diplomat is appointed by Quaid's High Council. And Web is punished on Quaid for his crimes against humanity via gases. You're welcome, Sean.
Sean Ferrell: Thank you, Mark. Mark, you always show up in the. In the mailbag and we always, we always share it and it's always such a wild ride. Thank you, Mark, for that.
Matt Ferrell: Strap yourself in.
Sean Ferrell: So, as usual, right about now, when we finish with the mailbag, we think we're ready to go, but suddenly there are flashing lights, there are strange sounds. Yes, it's the Read alert. It's time for Matt to tackle the Wikipedia description. A long one this week. It's been a while.
Matt Ferrell: MCoy discovers he is dying of an incurable disease. The crew of the Enterprise rush to stop an asteroid from colliding with a Federation world, only to discover that the asteroid is in fact a disguised alien vessel. They find an entire civilization living in the ship who believe they're actually on a planet and a dictatorial oracle who forbids any attempt to discover the truth.
Sean Ferrell: A little bit longer than we've had in the past few weeks, but still on point. Well done, Wikipedia. As always, we like to take a look at the world at the time original broadcast so what was the world like on November 8, 1968? Well, Matt, I warned you. And yes, here it is again. You're gonna have to sing Hey Jude. I'm not not a fan of the Beatles. I love the Beatles. As I've said before though, this song just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's because, and Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it's because that when it came to playing the Beatles on WCMF in Rochester, New York, yes, this was the only Beatles song that they would ever really play. Do you remember that? The way I do.
Matt Ferrell: It was on a lot, always on rotation.
Sean Ferrell: It was always this and Foreigner and Boston and a lot of Molly Hunts
Matt Ferrell: The Boys are back in town.
Sean Ferrell: The boys are back in town. Bob Seger, Eddie Money, Two Tickets to Paradise I sometimes wake up at three o' clock in the morning singing Two Tickets to Paradise and I never know why. Anyway, at the box office people were lining up to see yet again Funny Girl. This was the number one film for about a two month period. Very much in alignment with the two month period that Hey Jude was number one. So something about November and December in 1968, these things just kind of took hold and stayed in place. Maybe it was because you had a presidential election followed by Thanksgiving, followed by the holidays and the end of year and people just trying to get out of 1968, a year which included multiple assassinations. Like there was a lot going on. Vietnam. Like maybe people were just like, give us something to enjoy. We're gonna hold onto it as tightly as we can and we're not gonna let go. We've decided as a people, it's Hey Jude and Funny Girl. And on television we've been talking about the other shows on Friday nights which competed either directly or indirectly for the attention that Star Trek was also competing for. And we've taken a look at a lot of programs that Matt and I collectively had not heard of before. There's a bit of the Wayback Machine in play here as we're going back and discovering things that we hadn't really heard of. But here was a program that I had heard of. We've all heard of it because of a attempted movie franchise built around it in the when. When was Wild Wild west with the
Matt Ferrell: early 2000s, or was it the late 90s?
Sean Ferrell: Early 2000s, at the late 90s? I don't recall, but it was Wild Wild West was a program that. The details of it. I never saw the movie, so I didn't really get up to speed on what the mythology around the show was. And in reading this, I'm like, wow, this really does land in a sweet spot that I may actually want to revisit this show because the show itself sounds like it does hit a spot that is perfect for me. So what was happening on television at the time when Wild Wild west was being created was the western was in decline and it was being replaced by spy shows. So this is the era when shows like the Saint and Danger man were considered the new in fashion and westerns, despite the fact that Bonanza would remain or Gunsmoke would remain on television for years and years and years was in decline. So somebody had the brilliant idea, well, what if we look for the overlap between these two? So it is a spy show built around a Western in which it is. Agents who are working under the administration of President Ulysses S. Grant are effectively out fighting Western based Bond style villains. Villains who want to take over the world or parts of the United States and are being stopped by Michael Garrison or not by Michael Garrison, by James west, who's played by Robert Conrad. And Robert Conrad was one of those actors when we were kids, I knew he was the tough guy. He had the battery commercials where he'd put the battery on his shoulder and say, I dare you to knock it off. And I like, who is this guy and why am I supposed to knock a battery off of his shoulder? This is why this show is why. But what I think is interesting about this is, Matt, without. I don't know if you've read the show notes, but can you speculate at all about why this show would have gone off the air?
Matt Ferrell: No, no.
Sean Ferrell: It was very popular and it remained popular for the entirety of its run, but it was canceled after its fourth season because it was considered one of the more violent programs on television. And after the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert Kennedy, Johnson put together a commission to look at the potential causes of violence. And they landed on entertainment as one of the potential causes, which led to a lot of changes in what was allowed to be broadcast on television, particularly targeted toward kids. Now, Matt, you and I were both beneficiaries of the President who removed all of these restrictions, Ronald Reagan who pulled back on these restrictions, which allowed us to enjoy shows like The Transformers, He Man and GI Joe, which were effectively just 30 minute long commercials. But during the Johnson administration they were putting into place restrictions which led to the creation of educational programming like Sesame Street. So big culture shift happening. They were looking at television programs that were potentially too violent. And Wild Wild west was one that was known for having multiple large either gunfights or fist fights per episode. Now when we think about Star Trek, one of the things we think about is like it's kind of this mix of talking and action. And there's of course the cliche of eventually Kirk's shirt will be ripped and he'll be wrestling somebody somewhere in the engine room. But when you boil it down, it's not all that common that we get a lot of fist fights and phaser battles which are intended to be ongoing enticing action in Star Trek.
But from the sounds of it, Wild Wild west had so much of it that even when during this point in time, when they were clearly being looked at by this commission and there was pressure from Congress to change how programming was done on television, they pulled back on the amount of violence and yet still had too much violence to the point where the network willingly cancelled a show that had a strong following and good viewership. As an example of the levels of violence, despite high ratings, the series was cancelled near the end of its fourth season as a concession to Congress over television violence. Conrad the Star recalled in 1994, the injuries started at the top. Robert Conrad suffered from a 6 inch fracture of the skull, high temporal concussion and partial paralysis. Ross Martin suffered from a broken leg, a broken skull for Rudd West, a broken leg for Jimmy George, a broken arm for Jack Shelley. And Michael Dunn had a head injury and a spinal sprain. I want you to think about that for a minute. How do you sprain your spine? He did his own stunts and on and on. So these were actors and stuntmen who in the actors themselves. Conrad did his own stunt work until he received that 6 inch skull fracture. After that, it wasn't Conrad who said, I'm done doing that, it was the network. This is in the days prior to the networks having an insurance agent on site who'd come in and say, look, we're not going to cover that. So like this is a change in a very interesting way. So the show gets canceled because it's too violent. I love. In one of the notes that I found about this program, they announced they were pulling back on the levels of violence. But while they said that they aired an episode that had more violence in it than any program they had aired up to that point. So it really sounds like the network felt like we've got. The show can't help itself.
It's too in its DNA. It was too born of being. Ultimately, in my mind when I hear all of this, I think it's because it was a western first. That sounds very much like it's born of the western style storytelling, especially on television. And then you move into the spy era where you watch a show like Danger man or the Saint, you get a lot of people smoking cigarettes and giving sidelong glances across crowded rooms. You don't get a whole lot of fisticuffs constantly in the program. So very different style of storytelling. I just found that was all very interesting. And in the news, this is of course, just days after the elections. We talked about it before. We have a headline at the top right side of this newspaper in which yes, they were still counting votes. They had already announced the winner. This is not a case like in 2000 when we went weeks and weeks without knowing the final results. This was just a few days later, but they were still counting the votes. And the lead for Nixon was becoming even bigger than it had been considered. Nixon popular vote lead is increased to 270, 608. So his win was at that point considered a very clear popular vote win. His reelection in 1972 would be even bigger when he would win in a landslide. On now to our discussion of this episode. This is of course, for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky. I had to say it at least one more time in which we are. We're given a group of people who live effectively in an artificial reality that's been constructed for comfort but has turned into a kind of. This is really kind of a proto matrix. When I think about the episode of the people who live inside this sphere and think of themselves as part of the world and are ruled by a computer that ostensibly is there to protect them, but seems to be controlling them to a degree that doesn't seem healthy.
And it feels like there's a lot of subtext in this one around the over dependence on technology, the lack of humanity in over insulating yourself. And it feels like this one has an opportunity to be analyzed from a very strong political perspective, which I think is interesting because it is at the same time a big part of this one is simply a love story. And we're given a real tight focus on McCoy and an examination of what a person wants and what a person needs when they think that they are reaching the end of their life. And so this one has, for me, a very interesting balance between big sci fi ideas. The title itself, this. This premise and this title is so evocative of 1960s pulp sci fi novels for me that I'm just like, I'm ready to just gobble it up. And then at the same time, it is a pretty deep dive into a character on the program and how he's dealing with such dark news for himself and the connection that it brings between him and his two strongest friends.
So just as a jumping off point, Matt, I wanted to ask you, was there any one element of this program that stood out to you as the one that felt like it was the biggest draw for you, or was there something in this that felt like it was the biggest distraction for you? Whether it's a positive or a negative, I invite you to respond either direction.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, I'm a sci fi geek. So the idea of an asteroid spaceship and people not knowing they're in a spaceship and it's just replicating, faking it out to make them think that they're actually on a planet. Love that concept. Hard Sci fi speaks right to the title of the episode I'm in. But for me, the big thrust is meant to be the love story. And I think it's both one of the best parts of the show and also one of the worst parts of the show at the same time. Because the way they set it up is so clunky and awkward and dumb. They don't show you them falling in love. It's just suddenly horny Alien babe once is giving googly eyes at McCoy for no reason whatsoever. They've literally just met and I want you to be my husband. It was like a Whoa, somebody's hitting the fast forward button here. To get them to the love story as fast as they possibly can without earning it. That part was bad and very distracting. But once you get past that part from that point on, it's pretty compelling. Because when she's talking to him and says, you seem very lonely, and he's, I am, I am. I've led a very lonely life. It's just like, oh, Bones, you know what I mean? You just feel bad for him. And the two of them growing closer, it was very nice. And him coming to the realization of my final year, what I want to do with my final year, I wouldn't know. I want to be with this beautiful woman on this. Of course I'm going to do this. This is a chance to not be lonely, to find kind of a soulmate and have a life for myself, even though it's only going to be a year. It was this wonderful, kind of touching story, but clunkily told. So it was both the part that kind of pulled me in and also pulled me right back out at times. And pulled me back in and then pulled me back out at times. Yeah, it was frustrating.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. I don't disagree with that. And I wonder how much of that is born of. There are a number of things, I think, tipping the scale that direction for me. One of them being it's a TV show that was written in 1968. The writing styles and the interest in how deep a dive you go into certain things and how you set things up. Especially in a show that was effectively. Everybody knew it was over. It was on Friday nights at 10 o'. Clock. And if it was for anybody, maybe it was for kids. Question mark. And I don't think that there was a heavy intention to say, let's make this make sense. I think if this was a Next Generation episode, and we probably will have a Next Generation episode that feels very similar to this, or where they will take more time and set things up in a different way. Because the 1980s, even though by today's standards is now 40 years old and is. Yeah, we look back at shows in the 80s and go like, oh, that's kind of quaint, kind of clunky. I think the 1980s would have handled a little bit differently and maybe built up a bit more of the meat that you're looking for. I also think that there's an element here. I'm confused by some of the choices as far as how quickly they reveal what is happening to the audience and to the characters within the program. So that there was in. As I was doing research on the program, I found there was somebody else who did analysis of this one and gave the episode high marks for its concept. But. But gave it, I think, basically like a B minus on a grading scale. Making the argument that it feels like the last half of the episode is largely just mopping things up as opposed to discovery and drawing connections and conflicts. And I found myself at the time reading that. I was like, is that fair? And as I've thought about it for the past few days, I think it is.
I think that there is a moment in this where it feels a bit like, why? Why did you discover as much as you did about how this society is controlled, how it operates before the halfway mark? So the. The last half is just, well, we gotta sneak on board and do the things we want to do instead of spending more time figuring out, hold on, how is this working? We aren't quite sure yet. Oh, the last half is. I think we've got an idea, but now we need to figure out what to do. This felt like it was a feat accomplished by the 20 minute mark. Oh, we clearly have to do this thing. We clearly have to. We have to reset everything. I felt stymied by the fact that the Enterprise wasn't trying to do anything. Like, we've had other episodes which were similar, which were Spock, McCoy and Kirk go to do a thing and Scotty's on the ship and he's just like, we're not going to stop trying to do it on our side too. In this one, it felt very much like the Enterprise is just like, yeah, we're just going to cruise along next to this asteroid. No attempts to, like, physically, like, what if we tractor it? What if we try to put barriers in its way? What if we try to force it to turn? What if we try, like, what if we do things? There didn't seem to be any attempt to do any of that. And the heart of it, I think, does go back to give us a 10 minute. Give us a 10 minute long process of that woman and McCoy seeing each other in doing things. Give them each one thing to do so that each of them can give a knowing look that says, like, wow, I really like the way you handled yourself there. Show her do a thing with her people where people are responding to these strangers with. Have her have a lieutenant who's just like, we should kill them. We should get rid of them. They are a danger to our way of life. Outsiders are not a good idea.
And have her have a much more compassionate and measured tone of like, no, no, no, no. This is like, this is not the way our world is. Have, you know, like, we should be inviting to. To strangers. Because if we are not welcoming to strangers, then who are we welcoming to? And have McCoy say, like, what a generous woman you are. And then give him an opportunity to like. I found myself thinking, where are the kids? Show the children that are a part of the society and show McCoy have a moment with a child where he helps a child who's maybe sick or injured in some way. And McCoy's like, I might be able to help steps in and does something. And she's just like, wow, you're a healer. And you did that without hesitation. And I found myself thinking, like, if only we had those two moments. So much of what would have followed would have felt organic, and it would have felt more engaging. It would have been more invested than simply. Like you said, it felt a little bit like a dating game. The curtains pulled back, they see each other for the first time, and they're both like, do you want to get married? I guess so. Yeah, let's do it.
And I'm like, huh?
Matt Ferrell: It was not earned. And what you just described would have created that earned relationship. At the same time, you could have been cutting to Spock and Kirk, going around and finding things that are kind of warning signs of, like, this isn't what it seems. Something is off here. Something is off here. And then when they stumble into the Oracle room and get zapped and sent away, it's like, then you still get that moment where McCoy has to make a decision. He stays there. It just would have been a better setup for the entire episode. And then you would have just truncated the second half a little bit, so the conclusion would have been a little more tight. It would have pulled you in. You would have felt connected to the characters. It would have made sense. Which is why I'm kind of like. I feel like I'm grading it on a curve a little bit because I like the concept so much, but the execution was just not that great. I also have a little bit of a problem with. It felt like they were trying to do too much. You talked about how there's a theme here. There were multiple themes. And one of the themes that jumped out to me was this came up a few times. That's your truth. That's your truth. And then at the end, she challenges the Oracle because she herself has said to McCoy and others, but that's your truth. And then when the Oracle says it to her, her response is, is truth, not truth for all. Yeah. And when she said that, I was, like, strangely timely. It hit me like a ton of bricks. And I was like, damn. Like, in the late 60s, there was a lot of similarity between the late 60s and what we're seeing right now, with the rise of authoritarianism and, like, the right wing and all that kind of craziness that's going on. It's this episode. Very prescient.
Sean Ferrell: It plugs, yes, like, plugs into a lot of that were going on. And the idea of misinformation. What was coming out of Vietnam, where every, like, politicians are going up in front of cameras and saying, like, Vietnam's going great. And then people are sending onto the evening news and seeing body bags, and they were like, this is great. This is like, that's your truth. It's like, well, you know, equality is, you know, across the board for everybody. And yet the civil rights movement needed. Was calling for the addressing of legitimate real hurt. And it was just like, whose truth is what? And yeah, when they, when they said that program, I was just like, put this one in a time capsule. We need to watch this every year. And it just, it really, it resonated with me as well. And I, I do agree. Like, it feels simultaneously like it's trying to do too much and it doesn't do enough of it. It's strangely constructed. It's very, it feels very much like a first draft. Like if they gave a second run at this and they were like, okay, let's shrink the first half. Let's add a scene where we show the two of them connecting. Let's put a lot of the emphasis on what does truth mean? If you have a society, like having Spock's. Having Spock make an argument of a society that runs well based on a lie is good, bad. Like, have him puzzling that out. Like, I'm not quite sure how to respond to this because the circumstances, they have a really well run society and it is based on a false premise. And for a Vulcan to say, like, the idea of, like, Vulcans cannot lie, have him wrestle with, do, is this a Prime Directive problem or not? Have Kirk coming at it with like, whether it's a Prime Directive problem or not, we have a legitimate concern that this is effectively turned into a weapon of mass destruction because it's going to hit a planet.
And like the moral conundrums that the two of them could have been wrestling with in the way it's been depicted, it's turned it into not even full blown action, just kind of like quickly gathering data and then saying, well, now we know what we should do. And I felt like, oh, we've been shortchanged a bit. It's not philosophical, it's not mysterious. We don't have enough room Runway for the romance of it. We just have a really cool concept which is very of the time. The idea of like this asteroid hurtling through space. I love the concept of it. I loved like, I, I thought the entire setup of the, the, the weird old man who shows up and says, for the world is hollow. And I touch the sky. So touching the mythology of that, like, he's showing up and just like, like some, like he's had a mystical experience for him. It's not even just like we're living a lie. He doesn't show up and say, we're living a lie. He's just like, it's hard to understand conceptually what reality is because I did the forbidden thing. I have some kind of knowledge that I'm not supposed to have, and I know that, but I don't know what it means. And I thought that was fantastic. That's a. That's another premise that the entire episode could have spun off on of the idea of when you have a truth that you don't understand, what is it? And then that goes back to things around. Like, every time you have that artificial reality element and you have the chink in its armor, it's always the one person who's been able to pull at a thread and unravel everything. And this felt like, yeah, they had all these pieces together, but it's nobody pulling at threads. It's just kind of everybody walking in the same general direction and then stumbling upon things. So, like, I wanted the old man's information to have more bearing on the ending with the Oracle. And I also like the idea of we've.
This is what now? The seventh episode, I think of the original series where it's been like, there is a super smart artificial intelligence making decisions for a people. And I'm like, I'm fine with them revisiting that. I'm fine with them including that. And I feel like in this one, they were like, we've already done a landru which focuses very much on the artificial intelligence. We don't want to do another landru. But I felt like this one deserved a little bit more attention because the Oracle in this case doesn't seem all that malevolent. It's just very final in its judgment. Oh, they're now, they should be killed. And I was just like. But it was compassionate at a moment where it was just like, yeah, McCoy may stay if he chooses to accept himself as part of the body. And we're all cool with that. And I was just like, it's a compassionate AI. I would have loved that aspect to be explored a little bit, too. The idea of, like, engaging in. What if they had engaged with conversation with it? And it was just like, I am a caretaker. I love these people. Like, what an interesting, weird thing that could have been.
Just too many episodes spiraling out of my head at this point.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah. But for me, that never came into my mind because the way the AI acted made sense as that. It's not sophisticated AI. It's just got a set of routines and it's just following those routines to the letter and there's no flexibility. So for me, it didn't need more explanation because there was other stuff that was more interesting to explore. But to talk about the inconsistencies, there's another inconsistency to the way the show is made that I thought was interesting for me, which was the filmmaking, which ranged from, wow, that's some really creative filmmaking. And shots they got going on. And then the rest of the episode was like, wow, Very paint by numbers. Yeah, those two full grown adults are hiding behind this little pillar with all their joints and stuff. It was like cartoonish filmmaking versus, like when they are captured on the surface and they're brought down. There's this incredibly long shot of people just walking down the stairs. And you're seeing them close up coming down this spiral staircase. And it's shooting through the spiral staircase at the people waiting at the bottom. And I thought that was a phenomenal shot because it did so much in so little. It set up. They're deep underground. It's set up that it's confined space. It's tight and like, it felt very artificial because of the clanking of the feet going down metal, metal stairs and all this kind of stuff. So it was a really wonderful shot. And then the next shot was them all, like, all pushed up against this little door that was gonna open that they were gonna walk through. And every person in the scene was bunched in there, so it looked like the most crowded hallway you've ever seen in your life. And the walls felt very narrow and closed in. I was like, this is so cool. It's like another great shot of setting the stage for they are underground and they are in a confined space.
And it made it feel very almost submarine, like. And I was like, this is really great. And they did nothing more with it for the rest of the episode. It just slipped back into standard filmmaking after that.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, I really think this is third seasonitis where they're just like, we're on our way out. And it's just like you do put a director in who's gonna do paint by numbers for a little bit, maybe experiment with a couple of shots. Oh, we've got this neat spiral staircase. Why don't we throw that in there? We do something interesting with that. But the rest of it, yeah, like, hiding behind the pillar. Kind of have to, like, give it a little bit of a.
Matt Ferrell: It was very Scooby Doo.
Sean Ferrell: You had to. It's a little bit of Scooby Doo, but you're watching it. Like, Scooby Doo doesn't have a payoff, but watching it like it's a stage play does. You have to watch it with the mindset of, like, I'm watching a stage play. So the fact that I can see that they could all see him, but he's supposed to be invisible. Somehow I have to buy into that. I have to let that happen. Some of the goofiness that ensues from, like, this AI is making decisions for the society. It's a giant asteroid hurtling through space that has an entire people inside. And they don't know they're inside an asteroid. They don't know it's a spaceship. And what's going to happen when they get there? We're going to open this book.
Matt Ferrell: Huh?
Sean Ferrell: It's a literal, like, Spock at the
Matt Ferrell: end, a book that is going to
Sean Ferrell: contents to find out how to open up the secure. He's literally. He literally is just like, it's on the next page.
Matt Ferrell: My favorite part about that explanation though, was it's like, when we get there, we're going to open this book that is going to completely turn everybody's belief of what is real upside down. And it's going to be just fine. It's like, I would have loved it
Sean Ferrell: if they said, let me read the dedication on the first page. Let me read the dedication. It says, to our progeny whose minds have just been blown. So you didn't know you're in a spaceship.
Matt Ferrell: My bad.
Sean Ferrell: We thought it would be better if you weren't told now. It's just, it's. It does have those elements and at the same time, it also has those elements born of the exact same era. The. The reason that those elements are in the show is also the reason why other elements that are just really cool retro sci fi fun are in the show when they get electrocuted. I loved it. Every single time. Just using a film negative with jagged light around the edges and they're frozen in place. And I was just like, I would watch that for 28 minutes,
Matt Ferrell: Spock and
Sean Ferrell: Kirk just frozen holding onto that pillar. And just like, I loved it. I'm like, that is just simple old sci fi. Like in the episode where they don't realize they've blown the top off the entryway because the aliens have created. It's the very first pilot where they've created the illusion that the laser is not working. And when that illusion is dropped, they can see that the entire top of the little hill is gone. Simple stuff like that. Give Me, sci fi people doing sci fi stuff and show it in that way. And I'm just like, I am ready for that. I loved it. So it's like the exact. It's all that late 60s, like, oh, how are they going to convey the information of how to continue as a society once. Once this super technological spaceship asteroid reaches its destination? They have a paper, okay, and then, okay, what are we going to do for this, like, electrical charge stun mechanism? We're going to do this kind of goofy thing, but it's something you don't see on a western. It's not something you're going to see on other shows. And I absolutely loved it. So It's. Thank you, 1960s because it gives us both these kind of anachronistic moments that I really enjoy.
Matt Ferrell: Well, it's. At the end of the day, I find this episode enjoyable. I was never bored, even though it was inconsistent and had these quirks to it. It's charming, it's fun. It has that pulpy 1950s sci fi feel to it, to me. And so I enjoyed watching it. And I would definitely watch it again if it came on tv.
Sean Ferrell: I land very much in the same place. And it's the. It makes me sad for the fact that there wasn't a season four, because if they had known that they could continue, I think there would have been more effort and more emphasis on like, let's tighten this stuff up and let's make it make sense. And there would have been like. One thing that I think is obvious to me is the actors are still putting in the moments. There are some very nice moments, but the moments with McCoy, the focus on him in this episode, he's earned it. It made me look up to DeForrest Kelly. Okay, what was his overall life like? And I didn't realize that he also considered himself a poet and a musician. He was married to his wife for a really long time. And I was just like, this guy had one role that he was known for. And when he was given the opportunity to be kind of in the spotlight, he did a great job. I really liked him in this. It was another episode where he and Spock have another nice moment.
Matt Ferrell: Oh, yeah, the touch on the shoulder.
Sean Ferrell: Touch on the shoulder again. All you have to do is McCoy in a sickbed and have Spock touch his shoulder. And I'm immediately jello. Because it's that moment of just like, I will not change my expression, but I touch your shoulder. And as soon as he does it, McCoy is just like, you scumbag, you told him.
Matt Ferrell: He looks at Kirk. Exactly.
Sean Ferrell: Of course you told him. I don't know why I would have thought you wouldn't tell him. Like, of course you told him. But it's this, like, yeah, thank you, Spock. Like, this moment is just very natural. Spock and Shatner, Shatner's desire, Kirk's desire. In that moment in the. In the transporter room, he's just like, you really shouldn't go. And I'm trying to say that without saying why. And McCoy's just like, no, I really want to go. I need to go. And he's just like, are you sure? The work that's going on and all the actors, I'm just like, they're. All their interest is on display, including Nurse Chapel, which made me think about strange new worlds where I was just like, here we have a deeper, informed understanding of Nurse Chapel, and. And we're seeing. We've seen the earlier stuff where it's just like, all the relationship stuff between her and Kirk or her and her and Spock.
Matt Ferrell: And here was her reaction to Bones. Yep.
Sean Ferrell: She's got this reaction to Bones where she's just like, I am your friend. And I'm just like, yes, you are. Only in this episode.
Matt Ferrell: Also this episode. That storyline makes me wish that the way we tell serialized storytelling today, they had done then, because, you know, that they would have introduced that McCoy had some kind of incurable disease three episodes earlier.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: It would have been kind of this underlying arc, and then this would have happened and they would cured it. So it felt a little forced where it's like, oh, how convenient that you introduce his sickness here and then you cure it by the end. But that was the storytelling at the time. So it's like I. But it made me wish this kind of storyline would have been told today.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, so I agree with you completely. I land on this with, like, I like it. I enjoy it. I would enjoy it. Again, I have no problem with this one, other than like, yeah, there. There's an alternate version in an alternate reality where they're like, this is tightened up. And it. And it works in all these different ways, but I still like it. And I still like that title. That's right, everybody. I'm a big fan of that title. So let us know in the comments. Jump in and join the conversation. What do you think about this one? Do you agree that this one is fun while a little clunky, or is this one for you just picture perfect, or would you rather click the fast forward button? We can't wait to hear what you have to say. As always, liking, subscribing, sharing with your friends, those are all very easy ways for you to support this podcast. Commenting as always is a great way to support it as well. You want to support us more directly, you can go to trekintime.show. Click the join button. It will make you an Ensign which means you will be automatically signed up for our spin off program out of Time in which we talk about things that don't fit within the confines of this program. We hope you'll be interested in checking that out next time here on the program we are going to be talking about Day of the Dove. Wrong answers only in the comments. What is Day of of the Dove about? Thinking about Mark Loveless and all the pigeon shit we're about to hear about. Thank you as always for taking the time to watch or listen and we'll talk to you next time.