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Are you a passionate veterinarian seeking to elevate your practice and make a lasting impact in the field?
Welcome to "The Vet'Ed Podcast". Join Steven Hermann, Kale Flaspohler and Lindo Zwane - industry experts and thought leaders, as they delve into tailored strategies and nurturing relationships to empower privately owned veterinary practices.
Tune in the first and third Wednesday of the month to gain invaluable insights, tips, and inspiration to thrive in your independent clinic. Together, let's build a community dedicated to advancing veterinary care. Subscribe now and embark on a journey towards lasting success in your practice.
Alright. Welcome to the Better Podcast. I'm Steven Herman.
Kale:I'm Kale Flaspeler.
Steven:And we've got a guest on today, doctor Peter Weinstein, who probably doesn't need a whole lot of introduction in the veterinary community, but there might be a few people that may not not know you know you, surprisingly enough. But, I mean, I started writing an introduction, and it goes, like, here to here. And and by no means am I gonna read this verbatim. But let's let's start off, get a little bit going here. You're not just a seasoned veterinarian, but a true leader, innovator, and visionary in the veterinary profession.
Steven:Your career journey began humbly as a kennel kid. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. And he has since made an indelible impact across virtually every facet of veterinary medicine. Doctor Weinstein earned his DVM from the University of Illinois and later went on to complete his MBA at the University of Redlands. Blending his love for animals with sharp acumen for business, his entrepreneurial spirit led him to write the acclaimed book, The E Myth Veterinarian, which has inspired countless veterinarians to view practice ownership through a new lens, transforming their practices into thriving sustainable businesses.
Steven:Key on the book, he's been the executive director of the Southern California Veterinary Medical Association, past chair of the AVMA Economic Strategy Committee, and a passionate teacher of business and finance at Western University College of Veterinary Medicine. Doctor. Weinstein is a devoted family man, He's proud husband and father with his daughter Brooke recently graduating as a veterinarian herself in 2023 from Oregon State. His personal journey as a father and professional is deeply intertwined, and it's clear this dedication at the veterinary profession extends beyond himself to inspire the next generation. Also, he has a podcast like we do here.
Steven:Podcasts are great and a lot of fun. Peter and Phil's courageous conversations, where he dives into thought provoking discussions about societal issues, leadership, and the veterinary field. Hey. We're excited to have you on today. I'm reading that it's rare looking around and going, the guy's sticking to a script.
Steven:He's normally all over the place, but no. Thank I that that's just the short list. I there's more things on there, and you have another child, you know, two children. And so I mentioned the one's a veterinarian. So, I I your other child too.
Steven:We should throw the throw a out on that.
Peter:My, first of all, that brought tears to my eyes. I couldn't have done a better job myself. So thank you. Can I have you come around with me and introduce me at at meetings around the country?
Steven:Heck, yeah. It'd be a lot. It'd be fun.
Peter:Brianna is a, has a business degree from the University of Southern California. California. She is currently in Austin, Texas. She's a sales manager for NetSuite's software, which is part of the Oracle family and, has been very successful in sales and, been very successful in life. So I like to think that I have had two my kids that when I get old, they can take care of me.
Peter:And, measures of success or they're off the payroll and out of the house.
Steven:I love it. We we just had a recording with a veterinarian who just, sold a practice to a private no. Stay private, and we help with that transition. He said, my kids are financially independent. That is a success.
Steven:So I think that's what, yeah, I could later take care of him. So I I love hearing that. Hey. Real quick. You're in the LA area.
Steven:Correct? How how are how are things?
Peter:Alright. So I'm fortunately 50 miles south of where the worst of the burns are.
Steven:K.
Peter:It was it was a distressing, debilitating, just a really difficult time when you know the people, you know the area, you see areas that you've been to up in flames. Tremendous amount of history, tremendous amount of people disrupted and moved, and weather had a lot to do with it. You, we, we think of forest fires, quote, unquote, but we really don't think of urban fires, but this was really a very highly packed urban area in Pacific Palisades up in the Altadena and Pasadena area in the Hollywood Hills. But it it was kind of the perfect storm with fact that we haven't had any rain in, like, six months. Winds of sixty, seventy, 80 miles an hour coming down from the canyons.
Peter:And, you know, even though these homes are right on the water, you would think that that would make them less likely to burn, but it doesn't matter when it's dry. The the winds are dry, and we haven't had any rain to support it for for a period of time. So there's still a concern the winds have been coming up and down. I mean, we not to give you a weather forecast, but, we've been kind of in the low sixties with winds. Now we're gonna go back up to the eighties with winds, which means they're gonna be warm winds.
Peter:So even though I'm 50 miles away from the let most recent fires, it has not been that long since I had ash on my car from fires in, the Orange County areas. And San Diego is under a, fire alert as well because of the winds that are down there. So it's it's part of the four seasons of California. Mhmm. Fire, blood, earthquake, and drought.
Steven:Well, I think what complicates it, obviously, the wind, you can't dump the water either. They can't take the, the tankers and dump the water. So that's been a a huge issue with, mitigating the spread of it because the I the dumping of the water is really not to put the fire out, to stop the fire from continuing to spread, really Right. To lay down the the line. So, how's it how's the veterinary community doing?
Peter:I think we're very, California, because we're so used to disasters in many different ways, it's a very strong support network between in in Los Angeles, the Southern California VMA, the California VMA, California Veterinary Medical Foundation, which is part of the CVMA whose funding is there to help support disasters. Veterinarians are very helpful to one another in these situations. We will take clients from another veterinarian and and help provide them with care. We will hose hose. Host.
Peter:We won't hose them. We'll host them.
Steven:Fires. We're gonna put the fire out with hose.
Peter:I think that's where my head was. Yeah. We'll host veterinarians at our facilities so they can provide care for their clients. I would suggest that the term competitor is not part of the veterinary vocabulary, but colleague and collaborator, especially in the face of these types of challenges. So a big shout out to all of the efforts of the Southern California VMA, the California VMA, and I know Vinh has actually helped financially as well.
Peter:There's a whole litany of groups that are working together to help, with the the, pets that have been, need to be rehomed or rehoused and the clients that need help. And I, give a big shout out to all my colleagues for being just that, which is colleagues.
Steven:Wonderful. Is is there any dedicated website to go to? Do you go to the, the California VMF
Peter:or
Steven:to donate? What's the best way to help out?
Peter:I think you can go to the California VMF website and then, the Southern California VMA. I haven't checked our website recently, but I know that they're doing some fundraising, as well with, with VIN. So, CVMF and the Southern California VMA would probably be the two, primary locations from that standpoint. And if if you want anything, I could probably get you some links afterwards that you can host on the on the website.
Steven:Absolutely. Let's do that. Let's get that out there, and, and definitely wouldn't. Our hearts, prayers go to out to everyone out there. It is a a tragedy, and mother nature is gonna do what mother nature's gonna do and we do we come together as community and it's just the way it seems like the world can work right that a tragedy brings people together and sometimes unfortunately that's what it takes So, we're thinking about y'all, for sure.
Steven:For sure. I know I've got a friend, in Burbank, and, you know, in kind of the middle of the fires. Right? But he's he's back. So the skies are clear, but they're showing a red alert.
Steven:So, we're thinking about y'all. Okay. We could talk the whole thing about this, but, let's let's let's keep rolling. Okay. So, yeah, opening question.
Steven:Right? What inspired you to enter veterinary medicine? Right? For me and I got that right. The kennel.
Steven:You're a kennel kid, you know, to to a veterinarian.
Peter:So I grew up in the James Harriot era. All creatures great and small came out when I was in probably middle school, junior high, whatever we called it back then.
Steven:Yeah. Yeah.
Peter:I grew up with cats. My mom was a biology teacher. My grandfather was the classic human medical doctor, general practitioner who lived above his office.
Steven:K. K.
Peter:And, of course, he scared me because every time he came to visit, I thought he was gonna give me a shot. And so I would go to the veterinarian with my parents when they would bring the cats in for care. And, I can't remember how old I was specifically, but we had a cat that was pregnant, Siamese cat that was pregnant, and developed rhino tracheitis. Now, it's rare in cats that are indoor only cats that we would see that in this day and age, but, we weren't as well tuned to vaccinations back in the seventies as we are now. And so this cat was going back and forth to the veterinarian.
Peter:The efforts were being made to help keep mom alive and or alive long enough to have the kitten. And, she had one live kitten. She died the next day, and so we basically bottle fed this kitten. So I got an intensive education on veterinary medicine. Now I could have become a medical doctor as my grandfather did.
Peter:My mom probably could have become a medical doctor if it was a different era in human health care. But I decided I like medicine, I like science, and I liked animals. And I read James Herriot, and I decided I wanted to grow up and be James Herriot, which is pretty hard to do when you're living up outside of New York City in the suburbs, and there's not a lot of cows, sheep, goats, pigs, but you can dream. So I decided to work in a veterinary office when I was 15. And, you know, they don't give you the the jobs that are nice like the technician jobs.
Peter:They give you the grunt jobs. So oh, and by the way. Yeah. This was during the parvo epidemic before we had a parvo vaccination. Wow.
Peter:So so for those of you who have ever experienced the smell of parvo, it it sticks in your reptilian brain. And so now, fifty years later, the smell of parvo is is triggering from my standpoint, from all of the cages that I had to clean from that standpoint. So heavy heavy indoctrination and heavy commitment, and really, I did not ever have a plan b.
Steven:Well, the word passion. Right? I mean, you the veterinary community, you know, ninety five percent of veterinarians, it is that passion from a from a young age where I mean, Parvo did not dissuade you from from following your dream. And so, I mean, that really echoes. That's why I love, being a part of this community now for a decade is to, is that passion and compassion, you mentioned collaboration too, there are no competitors in the veterinary space for the most part, working together, it's people that really care and love about what they do.
Steven:Like I said, you could have been a medical doctor in that discussion, right? We go, could I have made 10 times what I make or whatever, right? That kind of, you know, where the disparity is in wages, but no, I I, yeah, in New York, so small animal, I mean, was the passion that did you ever ever eat large animal?
Peter:Oh, yeah. Another story. So the practice I was working for, two veterinarians, one of whom did some horse work on the side. K. And so back in the seventies, there was a match race at Belmont Racetrack between one of the greatest Phillies and the Kentucky Derby winner or one of the greatest stallions.
Peter:And I'm I don't wanna get this wrong, but I probably will. I believe it was foolish pleasure was the stallion, and Ruffian was the, was the Philly.
Steven:K.
Peter:And they had a match race, at which Ruffian broke down on the track and had to be euthanized. And I apologize if I got the horse's names right or some of those details were were wrong, but I remember listening to the race in the car, I believe, if it was that big a deal back then. I mean, this was era of secretariat and, just amazing racehorses back then. And I went back to work, the next day or whenever I was back, then I was talked to doctor Mann. His name was doctor Mann.
Peter:And I said, why do they have to put horses to sleep on the track? Because, you know, when when you don't understand the anatomy and physiology of horses, you don't know how they recover, you don't understand all of the challenges of a horse, it it makes it hard to fathom. Mhmm. So he explained to me, anesthesia and recovery and and the nature of the fractures and all sorts of different things. And I said, well, I think I wanna become an equine orthopedic surgeon.
Steven:K.
Peter:And, here I am.
Steven:Who do we have there?
Peter:Who do I have? This is Bruce.
Steven:Hey, Bruce. How's Bruce doing? Love it.
Peter:Bruce, when my wife is not home, Bruce is the, my company, on my lap during these Zoom calls.
Steven:It wouldn't be right.
Peter:So he does like he likes to interject himself. So, anyhow, so I wanted to become an equine orthopedic surgeon. So I I spent, one summer working at,
Kale:a racetrack.
Peter:K. So the the max race was at Belmont, which was the thoroughbred track. I worked at, Roosevelt Raceway, which was a standard bred track. I, spent a summer, many summers working in companion animal. I did a whole bunch of different things while I was in undergrad as well, but really entered veterinary school within the back of my mind being an equine orthopedic surgeon.
Peter:Left veterinary school as a interest in small animal internal medicine because I think I realized my limitations and the fact that even though I may have common sense, I didn't have a lot of horse sense.
Steven:You had common sense. That mattered. Yeah. The horse is oh, I mean, you know, baronoid equine is not an easy business to be in, for sure. No.
Steven:So it's interesting, you know, again, we talked about this before. The the New York accent's not not really there anymore. Right? I mean, you've journeyed across the country. What what led you from, you know, New York City to venture out west?
Steven:And, of course, you know, Illinois in the middle with veterinary medicine and then, you know, kept on kept on going. Talk about that journey from New York City.
Peter:Well, the the journey started as an undergrad at Cornell because it was the state school of of California state school of New York. And, I didn't real you know, you've been there. You go to an undergraduate program and they co well, they put all the a's together in the room. Mhmm. And so now all of a sudden, you can't be at the top of the the end of the the at right hand side of the bell shaped curve because somebody else is there.
Peter:So you're happy just to be on the curve anywhere. So I've I got, the reality check of going from, top of the heap to the middle of the pool. And back in the dark ages, you know, getting into veterinary school was, as it still is, very challenging. So I found myself applying to veterinary school with 800 or a thousand other people who were on the right hand side of the bell shaped curve, and I was in the middle. So my, dedication and passion to become a veterinarian didn't waver, but I had to find a better way because Cornell I was not gonna get into the veterinary school at Cornell.
Peter:Mhmm. So I went around the country looking for graduate programs that were in conjunction with the veterinary schools so that I could get in to the vet school, learn the system. And and the best choice, and and there was a lot of family members who went to the University of Illinois, was to go to Champaign Urbana. So I moved shortly after graduation at Cornell to University of Illinois to do a master's program to move myself from the middle of the bell shaped curve a little bit further to the right, get some more work experience, figure out what I needed to do to be to get into the veterinary school at Illinois. Eventually, got into the veterinary school at Illinois.
Peter:And then heading into my senior year where you start to look at locations, After four years in Ithaca, where it's freaking cold, six years in Champaign Urbana, where it's freaking cold, and I said, you know what? Let's find some places warm. And so, California, I I I had been in California when I was 18, and I became enamored with it. Been back to visit a couple of times, and I said, you know what? I'm doing the Beverly Hills bill hillbillies.
Peter:I'm gonna pack up and move from Illinois to, Southern California, and that's what I did. And so it's really been thirty eight years in Southern California since I graduated, and, no looking back. And so that's it was really a move for weather and opportunity. There were so many job opportunities back here in, the mid to late eighties. And so just that was it.
Peter:It was really weather more than anything else.
Steven:You've seen LA sprawl since then. I mean, it's been amazing. Interesting. Again, Cale, as I as I hear about I think I met some of our clients that did not get into veterinary school right after undergrad. Yeah.
Steven:And I think there's it's interesting. I I don't know if you maybe you've looked at this, Doctor. Weinstein, but a lot of those are business owners because, you know, the, you know, the thing out right now is about grit, right? What's this key to success? Not being the smartest person in the room.
Steven:It's having grit. It's having determination. It's following your passion, and, and I think you're proving that out right there with what you just said was that, you know, a lot of people after undergrad don't get in. They might just say this in for me. I'm gonna go do something else, but you hung in there, you know, spent more money on school, spent more time in school, which is a good thing.
Steven:I mean, obviously, you you're you you believe in education. Well, that shows we could talk about that, but
Kale:are you are you sitting there thinking that we need to come up with some sort of data?
Steven:Oh, yeah. I'm curious. Is is there data? Out of
Kale:all the out of all the business owners, are there Yeah. As to like a probability that if you got in a second I'm curious if
Steven:there's any kinda, you know, core correlation on
Kale:That's an interesting question. Yeah. We can put some data together on that. We can
Steven:Have you thought about that or or seen data like that? But if we talk about a little bit of data maybe?
Peter:No. I'm I, I mean, I've been so involved with data with the AVMA veterinary economics division Mhmm. And as a consultant and all sorts of different things that I'm involved with, but I I don't think we have and and it would be very interesting to look at the 30 some odd thousand independent hospital owners, and you could even look at all 35,000 companion animal practices, and we could add in the food and the equine as well and mixed and just say, okay. Get some data on the owner. Mhmm.
Peter:School. Did you get into veterinary school the first time, the second time, the third time? And try to build a profile of a successful small business owner.
Steven:Yes. Yeah.
Peter:And, I do think grit and resilience I mean, there are three major factors that, in my opinion, make a number of major factors that make somebody good in an ownership fashion. Number one is leadership.
Steven:Mhmm.
Peter:Number two is the ability to build a team. Mhmm. And number three is communication. So which you can move two and three back and forth because you need to be a good communicator to build a team. And so it's it's really hard to say what features are identifiable or self identifiable when it comes down to, small business owners.
Peter:There's probably data to show it in other, industries, but I don't think we've done it in veterinary medicine.
Steven:Yeah. I think that, you know, not to your book. Right? It it don't get the The
Peter:e myth.
Steven:The e myth. Don't get the, exactly you talk about why most practices fail. Right? Don't succeed. Right?
Steven:Why they why they don't succeed. Curiously, the ones who succeed might have that more that common that grit because, we talk about that later. Don't wanna get too far off topic, but I thought that was just an observation.
Kale:Yeah for sure that's an interesting question to pose for sure.
Steven:That's that's our a good friend and client Doctor. Zach Whitehead who's Ellisville veterinary hospital same thing, masters And then on to you know, he's at the University of Missouri, and and, you know, we got his master's and got into the veterinary school, and and he's a business owner of a successful practice in in Ellesville, you know, Saint Louis suburb. So One of It's some of those correlations. Yeah.
Kale:One of the one of the parts of the podcast I truly enjoy is since I get to work with so many brand new business owners, like, since we're, you know, they're starting up their their practice, one of the parts of that is bookkeeping. And so I get to work with those people. And so a lot of times, I get the questions of, oh my gosh. This is going terrible this is going great just the the venting questions and that during that first month of of ownership
Steven:especially in January when
Kale:yeah January
Steven:holidays business has been slow not as many working days
Kale:and and so I guess I would I would like to hear your perspective of what was becoming a practice owner like?
Steven:Mhmm.
Kale:Like, what is that truly like and and, you know, how can people do that and and maybe ask themselves the right questions going into that.
Steven:Yeah. Great part of the journey. We're we're in California, warm weather.
Peter:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a great question, and and I think there's so many different ways to get into ownership. There is the classic way of working for me as an associate. I get old and gray.
Peter:Wait. I'm already there. And I say, hey, Steve. Hey, Kale. How'd you like to buy me out over time?
Peter:And if you're interested, great. We start to go through the process. If you say, well, I'm not interested because I don't understand the business of veterinary medicine. It doesn't put the brakes on. It just says, well, why don't we start mentoring you on the business of veterinary medicine?
Peter:And it doesn't put the brakes on because I can always hire a company like yours to do those things that I don't do well. So I I think number one, the different ways to get into the field, there's the there's the associate way, there is buying out somebody else who exists, and there's doing a start up. Now I did a start up. And and, I had my entrepreneurial seizure, like many of my colleagues have done, where they were working for somebody else. And I was very happy where I was working.
Peter:I love the guys. I love the staff. But I was making somebody else money. And, you know, not all of the policies and not all of the standards were those that I would have had in my practice. And so I said, well, if I can make his practice successful, I can make my own practice successful.
Peter:Well, it ain't that easy. Alright? It's easy being a doctor because that's what we're trained to do. It's not easy to recognize what it is like to put together a team of people with diverse and disparate backgrounds, different levels of education, to provide health care for a very demanding pet owning community, and do it well. And so yeah.
Peter:I mean, I I would say it takes a commitment to being a good doctor, a good leader, a good manager, and learning how to balance all three of those hats in a timely fashion so that you can get the work done, get the life balance that you want, and own a business and not just a job.
Steven:So this is gonna this is where we start to rail on the agenda. Right? We start we start finding, like, some you know, let's say, not following the order of the agenda, but, the veterinary ownership advocate. You have got developed that and working on associate veterinarians to be able to figure out maybe do a startup or buy in. And I think that jumping to the day from when you did a startup, are you seeing opportunity like that again?
Steven:Because I think there was a little bit of period where people thought, I can't do a start up. I mean, how do I compete with corporates? You know? I I can't even buy a practice because I can't afford to because of the corporates. But where do you see it today in 2020?
Peter:I think we're at an inflection point that is so exciting for hospital owners. Whether it is a start up, the banks are very eager to help finance start ups. Yes. You have to do your due diligence, and, yes, you have to be a good risk, and, yes, you have to be in the right location and and understand the demographics of the community. It helps to be a good doctor first to get the skill sets to be a good doctor before you start to open a practice where you have to balance doctoring and managing.
Peter:I think that there are so many different ways that we could look at buying existing hospitals. A large portion of veterinary hospitals are currently owned by baby boomers my age and older. And, you know, we should be trying to retire on the, beaches of Fiji instead of squeezing anal glands in the, in in the rural parts of Missouri.
Steven:Right.
Peter:But, I do think that this is the best time, at least in the last ten or fifteen years, to become an independent hospital owner. There are so many great resources like your company to help with the weaknesses. I think we can compete in pricing now that some of the multipliers for purchasing hospitals have kinda normalized. We have a very eager banking system. You know, the only kind of variable that that is a little bit sketchy is interest rates, but I don't expect them to to go higher.
Peter:And so if we can learn to live with what we've got and we have a pet owning community that is looking for new business models. They're looking for new people to run practices. And I think if you've got a great idea of how you wanna see your practice work, there are all sorts of different business models that can be built that aren't what I did. They weren't what my, my legacy doctors that I worked for did. It's what you do and what you wanna do.
Peter:And with the advice of surrounding yourself with a success team of experts, you don't have to be the expert. There's so many resources out there. There's no reason that somebody who has just an even inkling of becoming an entrepreneur can't be successful. Sorry about the long winded answer. No.
Kale:No. I think it's a great answer. Yeah.
Peter:So it couldn't have been
Kale:a better answer. That's I did I agree with absolutely everything you said and I think there's a lot of people that have that fear of I don't understand the business, I don't understand the taxes, I don't understand all those things and those are really those are things you can work through and those are things that that can be taken care of by the people in your group that are that are strong in in those areas. And the question that I had as you as you were talking was about, you know, the teaching that you do. And is that geared towards, you know, folks that might want to start a practice to own a business? Is that to kind of give them more resources and education in that area?
Peter:Thank you, Cale. That's a wonderful lead in. I appreciate that. Okay. So the students that I teach at Western are third year veterinary students, and they're we I survey them in the fall before we get started.
Peter:And I ask if they're interested in being a hospital owner, if they're interested in doing something else, if they're not really sure. So if I were to look at three buckets about a third have an entrepreneurial mindset. About a third are probably gonna do public health or specialty. They may be owners down the road, but their immediate focus is on getting board certified. And a third are sitting on the fence.
Peter:And so they're not really sure because they're afraid that being an owner will basically control their lives. So my goal is I use entrepreneurship as the foundation for the class. And my goal is to give them enough information to make an educated decision as to how they can best control their lives in the future and set the direction that they want. In my opinion, it's through owning a business and making money through other people. So I'm all about entrepreneurship, but the first thing I tell them on day one is whether they own a business or not financially, they own a business in themselves.
Peter:Steve Herman, Inc, Kale, Inc. Each and every individual in the country is a small business because you will be going in and selling something to somebody. You will be marketing yourself in everything you do, and you have to understand about budgeting, and you have to understand about marketing, and you have to understand everything that we're gonna teach them because especially with the professional, they are their own small business. And And even if you're working for somebody else, you still need to run your life as if you're your own small business from a tax protection standpoint and a legal standpoint. So I give them knowledge and information on how to be successful as a veterinarian, as a person, as a small business owner, and, hopefully, in the thirty six hours of contact, they take home a couple of ideas and things that they can use going on down the road.
Peter:And, I think, it's it's fun to watch some of the, the light bulbs come on when I tell them how much more money they can make as an owner than they will ever make as an associate.
Steven:Yeah. That that hopefully, that, that's gonna light bulb to go off because at the end of the day, financial independence helps out with that life balance part. Yep.
Kale:So yeah. The thing I like to say when I'm talking to those people that are prospective business owners, it's like you're gonna you're gonna get one paycheck as a veterinarian if you look at your year. You're gonna get your paycheck as a veterinarian but if you're a business owner, you get the opportunity at a second paycheck and you kind of get to dictate what that looks like.
Steven:Yep. Yeah. I think you get those thirds where people fall into, and then, hey, it's not for everybody. Right? Because because ownership does come with, a lot of risk.
Steven:I mean, they're you're taking on debt. You're doing things that it's just like anything. You have a passion for ownership, and, some people don't, and I think that's the other thing too. It's like, it's okay if you don't wanna have ownership. That's okay too.
Steven:But, you should explore what are possibilities, and I love that it sounds like that class helps that. I think let me ask you, you know, one of the things we hear is that, like, out of university, like, we taught a business class. They should know these things. The you know, they talk about veterinarians. How do they not know about this?
Steven:We have a business class. It sounds like either one two things. One, maybe the business class wasn't effective, or two, the veterinary student is so busy in animal medicine learning about, you know, the biology of the animal, how to do surgery, all those things that come along with that, you know, diagnosing, treating. What what have you seen that maybe helps say, yeah, they had a business class and they and it, you know, they did learn something or they just didn't sit down and and just check that box off.
Peter:Well, in, four years of veterinary school, you get approximately one hundred and twenty credit hours of education. The vast majority of it is clinically based. You are tested at the end of your education, and the vast majority of it is based upon diagnosing treatment, etcetera, of dogs, cats, pigs, horses, goats, sheep, fish, wildlife, etcetera. There's a very small portion of the national licensing exam on business. The vast majority of faculty members, and I don't mean to put everybody into a box, but the vast majority of people who teach have not owned a small business.
Peter:So they can't talk to the reality of what it's like to be an entrepreneur. And since most of the pressures on the students are to focus on being a doctor, I think that that's when the focus is on being a doctor. The business takes up one small synapse in their brain until it's released after graduating and saying, okay. What's next? So my goal is really to find and put a microchip in their brains, metaphorically, I don't actually do surgery, is to put a microchip in their brains that could be reconnected k.
Peter:When reconnect that hard drive when they're ready. So the most important thing I teach the veterinary students on day one is to get the email address of all of the guest speakers that I have come in, save those, and when they have the need for an attorney, when they have the need for marketing company, when they have the need for an accountant, when they have the need for an insurance broker, when they have the need for a financial planner, use those email addresses. Because life is not about memorizing the 83 differentials for a limping dog. It's about knowing where to find that information and to whom to refer the dog if you can't come up with the answer.
Steven:Perfectly said. I think that's a a great way to look at it. No question. But it's a connections. Right?
Steven:It's not what you know to you know part.
Peter:Yeah. What what's the quote? Shoot. It'll come to me in just a minute, but, there's a great quote about connections from that standpoint, and, my mind just can't come up with it at the moment. Oh, your network determines your net worth.
Steven:Yeah. Yeah.
Peter:Sorry. I figured if I talked long enough, it would come to me.
Steven:We could just say that Zoom froze out for a minute, and we can cut it, and then come back in. Right? And, like, it splice right together. Not kidding. Hey.
Steven:I tell you what, there there's we're gonna be running up against time here. I feel like we can do a multiple part series, and have great conversations. We've we've definitely been talking about, you know, your journey, which I think is important. A lot of our, like I say, a lot of people hate they they know you in the community, but I think one thing that question is is what I what I love about this podcast, Kale, and I love is that we actually get to know people that we already know better because we ask the question that we should have been asking already, but you're we're used to talking business, not about about life as much. So so thank you for that that time and that that journey with that.
Steven:Yeah, you've got a great book out there. You can still get it, you know, with, Michael Gerber, the E Myth, veterinarian, and, you know, interesting title too to dive into or the subtitle they were talking about earlier about how, you know, most veterinary practices, how they don't succeed. Right? And and so there's a path to it. It's almost like you don't see him fail right because veterinary practices tend to stay in business, but it's kind of like do you have a business though right?
Steven:Or you do just have a job with a debt service? So that's that's what's unique about the veterinary community. The opportunity is too for for advocacy is that a lot of owners out there, they got a business, like they have a better practice that could become a business that could be making money, could be doing better, could be serving the clients better, because it all comes together. It's all those those things that you talk about, the three different hats, you know, you have to in the book about, you know, what you need to wear, what you are not necessarily need to, but you do wear, need to recognize, right? And be able to separate those things out is when you look at the animal, a lot of veterinarians go, I can't look at that as profit.
Steven:Right? Like, well, yes and no. If you look at it as best medicine, it should it should equate to profit. But,
Peter:Why is profit a four letter word?
Steven:I know. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I
Peter:mean, last I looked at c r f t. But
Steven:r f t? Yes. Yeah.
Peter:I mean, okay. It could be a three letter word if you use net, but, yeah, it it but why is why is profit a bad word? Is it because veterinarians are so caring and compassionate, and we should be giving it away for free, and we'll take anything to save a pet's life? I mean, why is profit a bad word?
Steven:Well, that's a
Peter:great question.
Steven:Why, doctor Weinstein?
Peter:Didn't you ever learn not to ask answer a question with a question?
Steven:What did you just ask?
Peter:No. It it I I think it go ahead. I want your answer.
Steven:Yeah. No. So I mean, I I come from the grocery background. Right? Profit I mean, profit slim, slim, slim.
Steven:Profit did matter. You had to be competitive. You had to give good service, and making a profit was though the reason you have a business. You talk about surrounding yourself with good people as a veterinarian with consultants and, you know, all the people you need to be successful. We do the same in our business.
Steven:You know, we we have a business consulting services company, but we also have a business consulting services person for us, for our company. And our our our consultant coach, she will say a business doesn't have feelings. A business is there for one reason, it's profit. I mean, that's it. Yeah, we can nuance it, right?
Steven:Like, well, we set people in there. I care about people, and you get in all that crap. That's bad crap. Right? You get in all that stuff.
Steven:Excuse me. But, yeah. Back to it. Without the profit, you don't have a business. And so at the end of the day, just if you boil it down simply from the easiest view as a profit, how you get profit, you said it earlier, though, is by good leadership, having a good team, and communication.
Steven:You know, those three things. It takes a lot to do that to get that profit. But if you're not answering that number one question about why do you have a business, it's it's not the animals. It's you have a business to generate profit that then can take great care of the animals if you do that right.
Kale:I had a conversation to kind of caveat on on your point. I had a conversation at at, one of the last conferences we were at, a veterinarian came up and he he said, you know, I I keep getting told that I need to make 20% net income. You know, I keep getting told that by everybody. And, you know, my question to you is, why am I that much more important than everybody else in my clinic that I should take a check and then also get 20% of every dollar that comes in? And I said, so it was like a sense of guilt was was basically where that was coming from and and I said, you know, I hear what you're saying and it doesn't mean that because you made 20% of that income that you have to use that to go buy a boat or go buy a house or whatever it is that you wanna do.
Kale:Like, think of how generous you could be with that 20% of that income. And it's also you're being a good steward of all those people underneath you to be able to make sure that they're financially sound, that their paycheck is actually backed by a bank account that's full. Like, there's so many things that it's not a guilt thing. It you could give it to your staff. You know, it's not like you have to keep it and do it for you, but, you know, it's it's for the financial health of everybody involved.
Kale:And it's it shouldn't be this guilt thing tied to a reasonable profit.
Steven:No. And and and it gets into if you're doing that, then your associate that you wanna be the business owner is bank your your practice is bankable. A bank is gonna love to lend that practice money and a lot of it. They're gonna lend you a lot of money, and the great thing about buying a successful practice is is that yes does it cost more than going out renting 2,500 square feet putting $250,000 equipment in? Essentially on paper yes, But you're already leg up on everything.
Steven:So there's I mean, that profit is is not a four letter word. The profit is, is a six letter word, and it is a successful word. So that's what's our take on it? We have a lot of examples, and, Kale, that's the that's a great one about that that guilt, right, with veterinarians. That is that's that.
Steven:For whatever reason, is it your oath? You know, that you say that you're supposed to take care of every freaking animal? I mean, The United States oath compared to The UK oath, I'd rather have The UK oath or the Canadian oath for you all. It's not as guilty. You know, it's like they're saying basically take care of the animals you can take care of.
Steven:Not every freaking animal in society. Excuse Excuse me for saying it that way. But yeah.
Kale:I know we're we're running up on time here, but I do want your answer.
Steven:I will Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Peter:Well, I I think the difference between a job and a business is the profit. You know? You you run a business to make a profit in in answer to Cale's statement. I'm all about profit sharing. I think you need to support the team that helped make you that profit from that standpoint.
Peter:I think a lot of it has to do with guilt. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we watch James Harriet get paid in bacon and eggs back in the a hundred years ago in the Dales of of The UK. I think it comes from the guilt of clients who have to use discretionary income to take care of that knee surgery or cancer or whatever the case may be. I think it comes from the fact that veterinarians are and their teams are routinely, very high on the compassion scale. And and even talking to colleagues, I think many of us would practice veterinary medicine for a fair and equitable salary, if we didn't have to charge clients, because we could do what we wanted to do and what the pets needed.
Peter:So I don't think profit has to be a bad word. I think profit, if done ethically, if done professionally, if done with the best interest of the client and the patient and the team in mind is great. I just think we get so hung up on the big numbers that we see in the Fortune five hundred, or S and P five hundred, or Inc, or whatever the case may be, that we look at profit in in such a negative light, globally in many ways.
Steven:Right.
Peter:That we don't wanna make money as veterinarians because then we become the bad guy. But see, if you take that profit and reinvest it in your community, set up a foundation, give back to kids, however you wanna do it, but you still need to be rewarded. And you use the term, well, you used the term earlier, but we should be rewarded for the risk of business ownership. And that's what profit does. It rewards us for taking that risk.
Peter:It rewards us for putting that quarter in the slot machine and coming up with triple sevens because we did everything right with the right people, and we got lucky a little bit, but we did it right.
Steven:That's a beautiful way of putting it. It's conscious capitalism is what that is conscious capitalism which which is needs to be talked about. It's good, it's good, and surround yourself right. People are rewarding like Kale said that's that that matters, and you know what the amazing thing is about rewarding people and doing those things that rising tide. It's a rising tide.
Steven:Yep. Well, hey, as as yeah, getting up on time here, we're gonna do this again. I mean, I've got, you know, there's there's so much to talk about, you know, we didn't even, you've got a great podcast with Phil, Peter and Phil's courageous conversations. I encourage everyone you guys dive into relevant issues today in the right way, and and I love that, and that's that's wonderful. You the veterinary owner advocate online getting that going, groups going, you've got Simple Solutions for Vets, DEA, you know making sure you're right on DEA.
Steven:You talk about $16,000 is it per, per you know violation potentially, a lot of money. So you've got that out there, and so I look forward to The Us collaborating more, and continuing to help the the private practice owner in the veterinary community. I always like to point out that you know, I have offended some of our friends in the corporate area apparently, sometimes. I just like, I don't mean to. I'm not against corporate medicine at all.
Steven:I'm, I, I'm for good businesses, and there's good businesses in the corporate area. There's good businesses in the private area. There's bad in both too, right? So we're here about, at the end of day, taking care of people, taking care of pets, and just having a good time. So anything more you'd like to add in today before we we end the recording?
Peter:No. I always find these podcasts are great because we, we leave it open because there's so many things to talk about. I'll be a little self serving and saying go to three websites, www.peterandphil.com, a n d, peter and phil Com, w w w Veterinary ownership advocates, all spelled out, Com, veterinary ownership advocates, and www.simplesolutions,f0r, vets Com. Simple solutions for vets. Those are three places that you can find me or many of the meetings around the country.
Peter:On LinkedIn is also a good place to find me. And, I love sharing opinions. I I think, I love these grassroots types conversations because I do think even in 2025 when we are so technologically based, it's really about these types of quote, unquote courageous conversations that can help us set the direction for the future. So thank you for the opportunity, Kale. Thank you, Steven, for the opportunity.
Peter:And as they say at the end of Batman, to be continued.
Steven:Absolutely. We will post those websites on our website too. We'll link that out there. Appreciate you sharing that. Appreciate one listening today.
Steven:If you like what we got going on, check us out, on our website, betterpodcast.com. If you got suggestions, thoughts, you can give out there to make this more educational, more advocation, and more inspiration. We're here to work together and collaborate. Like us, subscribe, we appreciate everything. Peace and blessings.
Steven:Take care.