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Parenting today often feels like walking a tightrope—balancing empathy and structure, flexibility and follow-through. In this week's episode, we sit down with Dr. Anna Hammond to explore the rising popularity of low-demand and gentle parenting. Where did these ideas come from? What are we seeing in our practices and in our own homes? As parents and professionals, we recognize that these approaches were born from compassion and a desire to respect children’s emotional needs. But we’re also noticing the unintended consequences—especially as children grow into young adults who struggle with everyday expectations and resilience. Together, we talk about the importance of maintaining flexibility with fidelity—supporting our kids while still offering the guidance, structure, and gentle limits they need to thrive. Join us for a grounded, honest conversation about how to parent with both empathy and structure.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:05.82)
Welcome to The Shrinkdown. Today is our last episode for this season. So we're going to be taking a break over the summer, and we'll be back this fall. Today we have a special guest with us, Dr. Anna Hammond. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of Tompkins & Associates. She has been working with children, adolescents, young adults, and families for over 18 years in a variety of settings. Dr. Hammond enjoys working with teens and young adults who experience anxiety, depression, neurodivergence, and adjustment challenges.
Dr. Hammond also supports parents who are navigating the challenging world of parenting complex children. Additionally, Dr. Hammond consults with area school districts to support students' needs. In her free time, Dr. Hammond enjoys spending time with her husband and two children gardening, reading, and taking her dog for walks. Welcome. our topic today is low demand and gentle parenting, which actually Anna suggested this topic to Terry. And then Terry said, why don't we just have you join us?
Wilhelmina (00:48.959)
Welcome, Anna.
Anna Hammond (00:49.885)
It's nice to be here. Thanks, guys.
Teri (00:50.032)
Yay!
Lauren (00:51.278)
Hmm.
Lauren (01:02.936)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:03.366)
and tell us more about what you're seeing in your practice and in your daily life, and we'll share our experiences as well. But before we get in today's topic, we are gonna do our four minute faves, and I will have you go last. Who wants to go first?
Lauren (01:13.503)
Mm-hmm
Wilhelmina (01:16.187)
I'll dive in. I know that I texted Terry this as a show recommendation and said I was using this as my four minute fave. And Terry was like, well, I was going to use that as my four minute fave. And then we somehow texted Lauren and she was like, well, that's what my four minute fave was going to be. So this show comes highly recommended. And it is the Four Seasons on Netflix.
Teri (01:28.093)
Me too. Yep.
Lauren (01:34.254)
you
Vanessa (01:38.92)
Clearly. Clearly.
Wilhelmina (01:46.543)
Limited series, there are eight episodes. So it's two episodes per season. And it is actually based on an older movie. Yeah, Alan Alda and Carol Burnett. So the movie was written by Alan Alda. And I think he's still credited in the Four Seasons show. And it's three couples. And they're...
Lauren (01:55.437)
Yeah.
Lauren (02:08.226)
Yes.
Teri (02:11.955)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (02:14.311)
They are securely in middle age. They're all in their, would you say like 50s? Early 50s. And kind of navigating marriages and relationships, especially when very early on one of the couples announces that they're gonna divorce. And then how that ripples through their relationships. And it is so good.
Teri (02:18.963)
Early, I think early fifties. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:43.819)
I feel like anyone who is in like mid 40s to mid 50s smack dab in that will enjoy it and see a lot of themselves and their marriages at certain points within the show. I think if you're younger, I feel like you're not gonna, you're gonna just be like, no, not for me.
Lauren (03:03.384)
Well, and I'll say my parents are watching it and loving it. So older as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (03:07.995)
Older can, yes, because you've been through it. But I think if you're younger, you might have this romanticized like, that's never how I'm going to be with my spouse. Like, we're going to love each other forever. And then you get to this point, you're like, I mean, sure.
Lauren (03:20.846)
you
Teri (03:22.623)
I think it would come off as boring and cliche. A lot of cliched stereotypes. Unfortunately, a lot of times marriage stereotypes exist for a reason. right, exactly. I found it super watchable. Dan, my husband and I have been watching it. We're not finished yet. We're just about maybe halfway through. Maybe we've watched four episodes. We love it. Tina Fey, Steve Carell are in it. It's Tina Fey writing at her best.
Lauren (03:32.078)
was gonna say all stereotypes exist for a reason, right? There's truth! Yes.
Lauren (03:47.278)
Yeah.
Teri (03:51.377)
I was a big fan of 30 Rock. think she's so funny. She's like one of my favorite comedians and actresses. So it's good quality Tina Fey programming.
Wilhelmina (03:51.625)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (03:56.804)
good.
Lauren (03:58.563)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (04:02.565)
And Will Forte, he is a gem. He's a gem in this. Like, I just love his character throughout the whole show. Yeah, I finished it this weekend and...
Teri (04:04.641)
yeah, he's good. Yeah, he's good.
Lauren (04:05.922)
Yeah.
Teri (04:10.643)
Yeah, he's good.
Lauren (04:13.73)
So we're not done either, but I, I just jumping in on this as the fave, listened to the Tina Fey interview with Amy Poehler on her new podcast. And she talked about how this has been something that she wanted to develop for years because she loved the original with Alan Alda and Carol Burnett. So it's a passion project of Tina Fey's. And so she worked like for years developing it, getting the right cast and also
Vanessa (04:38.984)
Hmm.
Lauren (04:42.894)
Clearly there was a lot of thought put into it and it translated. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (04:47.401)
Yeah, it definitely did. So definitely good for a watch. Quick one too. you absolutely need to watch it. Yeah, absolutely.
Vanessa (04:52.318)
Well now I feel like I have to watch it since all three of you. I'm like, okay.
Lauren (04:53.516)
Yeah. And what I will say, I'm just going to jump in with an extra. And I'm not done with this yet. But I think just because we were doing the four seasons, the other show that we just started to watch that might be a good one for the summer because it's kind of quick and quirky and fun is The Residence with Uzo Aduba. Yes. Yeah. So we just started that as well. We're just kind of like jumping around.
Wilhelmina (05:16.592)
many people have come to me saying I should watch that.
Teri (05:18.431)
I don't know.
Lauren (05:22.446)
But it's super cute. She's like this like quirky detective trying to solve a murder at the White House that happened during a state dinner or something. So I think I feel like that's also like a good vibe for summer, you know, viewing. You don't have to think too much.
Teri (05:24.358)
Right in that time.
Wilhelmina (05:37.523)
Someone said it had like a knives out type of a feel. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. Multiple people have said, you need to be watching this. So I'll, that'll be my next watch.
Lauren (05:39.074)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit of humor. Yeah.
Anna Hammond (05:42.885)
I just finished that one and I loved it.
Lauren (05:50.218)
Yeah, a couple of good shows. Yes. Yes.
Anna Hammond (05:50.749)
It's about the president's personal residence. you get to, like, they show you scenes of, different parts of the White House that, you're not used to seeing, which is really cool.
Lauren (05:59.382)
It's really, yeah, like beautifully, like the visuals are really pretty. Yeah.
Anna Hammond (06:03.389)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (06:05.422)
What about you, Vanessa?
Vanessa (06:07.432)
So it's not a show that I'm sharing. I'm sure that's not a surprise, but. So I am sharing, I'm not surprised I didn't share this before, but it's my soda stream. Do any of you have one? Okay, yes, okay. So yeah, so it's a soda stream. So you basically make your own soda water at home. And we were going through a thousand cans. Like, I mean, I can't even tell you.
Lauren (06:09.08)
haha
Teri (06:20.248)
no. I see it. Yeah. I think about it.
Lauren (06:20.323)
no, I see it at Target all the time and think about it. Yeah.
Vanessa (06:36.22)
And our friends actually started using it. And so they had one. And so we went over and they showed us. And I was like, this is so easy to use. Why are we not doing this instead of spending a fortune on soda water that we're buying at the grocery store? And we're trying to get away from, we talked about this before, the flavors, the natural flavors that are naturally chemicals. But you can actually, if you're so inclined to, you can actually add flavors to the ones that you
Lauren (06:54.636)
Yeah, not natural.
Vanessa (07:04.936)
that you make at home. So they sell the little bottles to add the flavors. So if you want to, you can make your own. But we love it. We use it all the time. I was afraid we weren't going to use it. It comes with different sized bottles. I'd say my only like, about it is that they're plastic bottles. And so that's only thing. But I actually bought a glass bottle to like pour it into. So if you're trying to, if you're fine with plastic, so be it. If you're trying to get away from it, we're going to be pouring ours into like those glass bottles that you see at the grocery store.
Lauren (07:21.784)
Yeah.
Vanessa (07:34.994)
But if you drink a lot of soda water, I would definitely suggest looking into it because you'll save yourself some.
Teri (07:39.071)
And when you say soda water, you mean like club soda, sparkling water type, not actual soda with sugar. Yeah. Right, right, right. You mean soda. Right. Right.
Lauren (07:40.322)
I should.
Vanessa (07:45.606)
Yes. No, no. So yeah, so yeah, so yeah, good question. Yeah, so it's no, because if this was made in Chicago, it'd be like water, like, yes, it's not soda as an East Coast pop soda. Yeah, it's club soda. Yes. Like sparkling water. Yes, not pop. Yes. had to, that's come out of, now that I've lived on the East Coast for so long, like that has come, like is no longer part of my vocabulary. It's so strange. I don't.
Teri (07:59.593)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Not pop.
Wilhelmina (08:00.223)
But it's...
Lauren (08:01.506)
Like sparkling water, yes.
Teri (08:11.987)
You don't say pop anymore? sad. You say gym shoes or tennis shoes?
Lauren (08:14.638)
Yeah, We still do.
Vanessa (08:15.262)
I don't, I know. Sneakers. I know because when I used to say that, people would be like, what are you talking about? I'm like, yeah, gym shoes. They're like, what are gym shoes? I'm like, they're sneakers. Same thing with pop. They're like, what is pop? I'm like, it's a soda. Yes, I don't say those things anymore. I guess, no.
Wilhelmina (08:16.863)
haha
Lauren (08:22.158)
Hahaha!
Teri (08:22.331)
Lauren (08:26.062)
you
Teri (08:29.353)
Jims's.
Lauren (08:31.0)
Ten issues.
Lauren (08:37.966)
she's an East Coast girl now.
Vanessa (08:44.284)
I will never be. They always ask me where I'm from and I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, you have an accent. I'm like, I do? And then they're like, where are you from? And I'm like, Chicago. They're like, that's it. I'm like, I don't think I have an accent, but apparently I do. Apparently I do?
Teri (08:56.383)
I don't think you do.
Lauren (08:57.42)
I don't know that any of us or our listeners would think that. we all have it. Yes. Midwest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (09:00.191)
Mid-Waz. Yeah.
Vanessa (09:00.67)
Well, I think because it's like midwestern, like we're like Midwest, it's that Midwest, they just don't.
Wilhelmina (09:06.889)
Well, people always ask why I don't sound like I'm from Minnesota. And I'm like, because the accent that people associate with Minnesota is like rural Minnesota. It's not as much like the Twin Cities. Yes.
Lauren (09:15.502)
Yeah. Right, right.
Vanessa (09:20.146)
Same thing with Chicago. Like, if you're like born and raised South Side Chicago, you probably say things with a little bit of an accent, like, you know? Anyway. All right. Anna, do you want to share yours with us?
Lauren (09:26.946)
Right? Yeah.
Anna Hammond (09:32.573)
So in honor of summer, was thinking my current fave, my family and I just got back from a tropical vacation. And while we were there, I was embracing the wide leg linen pant and loving them. And so I have decided that this is my summer fave and what I'm going to be wearing all summer long. So that's my ultimate fave.
Lauren (09:49.868)
Where, where did you have, did you have like a brand or a store that you really liked?
Teri (09:50.96)
Yes.
Anna Hammond (09:55.483)
I've bought two pairs so far, one from Athleta, which is really, they're great. And then another pair that I got from the J. Crew Factory store. And they're like a really fun bright pink. And I'm just could wear them all day.
Vanessa (09:59.772)
nice.
Wilhelmina (09:59.943)
I love athletic stuff,
Lauren (10:05.09)
Okay.
I love that.
Vanessa (10:10.098)
Yeah. Yeah, I hate wearing shorts. So I'm always looking for like lightweight pants, flowy pants to wear in the summer. I'm just not a shorts, shorts gal. So good, good call.
Teri (10:11.133)
Love that. Yes, it's a good record.
Anna Hammond (10:12.443)
It was fun.
Lauren (10:13.836)
I Yeah.
Teri (10:15.359)
Yeah.
Lauren (10:18.286)
I love that.
Wilhelmina (10:22.813)
do they hold up in terms of wrinkling? Because I have a pair of linen shorts from Athleta. And that's the only complaint I have is that I wear them once and they're like all wrinkly. then washing and drying them, I always have to like steam. But I don't know if with the pants, if there's more time to let them sit down or like not fall down. Yeah. Maybe it's just linen.
Lauren (10:24.536)
gonna ask that.
Anna Hammond (10:47.047)
No, they're still pretty. I think they still wrinkle, but yeah, it's just linen, but I'm okay with it.
Lauren (10:52.876)
Yeah.
Teri (10:53.919)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (10:55.998)
Awesome. All right. Well, thank you everyone for sharing. So we're going to get into today's topic. So low demand, gentle parenting. So tell us what you've been noticing in your practice. Tell us a little bit about what you know about low demand, gentle parenting. And then we'll all just kind of jump in.
Anna Hammond (11:13.981)
Okay, I actually, Terry and I work together quite frequently on different cases. I'll be working with the family. She might do an assessment and referring back and forth. And I think over the last, maybe would you say, Terry, like two years or so, we've seen several cases where this has been something that's come up. And I just, I work with children as young as, know, the toddler years all the way up through college, young adulthood and launching years. So that whole age span and.
Teri (11:28.755)
Yeah. Yep.
Anna Hammond (11:41.725)
A lot of the work ends up being with parents, of course, right? parents have been asking a lot of questions about how to structure home life, how to get kids to do things that are non-preferred tasks. And it was sort of a reoccurring theme. And when I trained back in the early 2000s, and so strong cognitive behavioral therapy background and worked in lots of programs that were rooted in
Teri (12:03.902)
Yep.
Anna Hammond (12:08.615)
point sheets and behavior plans and token economies and all the things. And so that's very much a part of my arsenal. And so when I would talk about like, what's the structure and how, what kind of reward strategies do you use in your house? I get a lot of like, no, we don't do that. We don't do that. We're not supposed to do that. And so I just started digging in to learn a little bit more about it. And those were some of the buzzwords that came up. then I know Terry and I've talked about it a few times over the years, just the impact of what parents are.
seeing and reading on social media or in their news feeds versus maybe what some of the professionals and experts in the field are recommending.
Vanessa (12:52.126)
So I don't do therapy, I only do assessment. But I definitely see this in here, like when parents are just telling me about their child and sometimes the issue is really not something, like it's not learning, it's not attention, it's not cognitive, it's really like behavioral stuff going on at parenting. Do any of you who do therapy find that parents are using this terminology of low demand? Like do you think any of these parents are like seeking this out? Do they realize that
Lauren (12:58.178)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (13:08.403)
parenting.
Teri (13:10.751)
Thank
Vanessa (13:20.68)
that they're using these concepts or is it just kind of like they're not aware of, you know, the terms, low demand, gentle parenting. I'm sure it's probably like a mix, but I just wonder if you've ever had a family who's like come in and like, this is our approach and really, you know, name it.
Lauren (13:37.976)
So I have had that experience before. as soon as you were saying that, the one thing that I was thinking, and I'm curious, Anna and Terry, you probably have more of a higher N, a bigger sample size than I do, because I only see a small amount for therapy in my practice. But I think what I have noticed or observed when I talk to these parents is that they will start this at a young age as a way
Wilhelmina (14:04.276)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (14:06.526)
to perhaps their goal at that age. So I'm talking like toddlerhood, early preschool level is to increase communication skills with the child and things like that, but then never shift in the approach. And so then by the time these kids could be expected to have more problem solving skills and
have more demands within the home setting or be reaching some of these developmental milestones, like, I don't know, like driver's training. That's a big one. They've never sort of shifted their approach to that parenting that they started early on, I think, for good reasons, right? That approach of gentle parenting when the kiddos are smaller to like earn trust and increase communication, all those things. But it's resulted in these adolescents that then
don't know how to meet demands when or the parents don't know how to place demands. don't know. Thoughts, Terry?
Teri (15:06.663)
I think not setting limits in the short term feels really easy, obviously. And a phrase that I've often said to parents is hard now, easy later. And putting in some of the work now on the front end is going to yield dividends down the road. However, when you've got a little kid tantruming and you can lean into this idea of
Lauren (15:14.146)
Yeah.
Lauren (15:19.735)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (15:33.321)
We're just gonna let him feel his feelings. All feelings are for feeling and let's just let it ride and let's create a receptacle or a venue for this. Yes, and never shifting from that, I think it allows parents to feel like I'm doing, I'm parenting the right way. That there's one right way to parent, which is also a misnomer. There are multiple, there are multitudes of right ways to parent. There's not one pathway, but I think for parents to...
Lauren (15:36.159)
Right.
Wilhelmina (15:37.651)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (15:41.202)
Safe space.
Lauren (15:45.678)
now.
Lauren (15:52.963)
Yeah.
Teri (16:01.853)
at the end of the day and they're putting their head on their pillow at night to feel like I'm doing this the right way. I'm doing this the way that I saw on Instagram or TikTok and I'm not going to set limits or I'm going to approach this in a particular way. I'm just gonna validate, validate and there's nothing coming after the validation of the emotional experiences. It's like the parents get the validation part and they don't get the next part.
Wilhelmina (16:30.473)
Well, and I actually think that, and I'm gonna mention a name and I actually love this name. So this isn't dissing Dr. Becky, who's amazing. I use a lot of her principles when I need like a skill for something that I'm like, I need some words with this. I need some words to back what I'm doing. Yes, I'll go to Dr. Becky. At the same time, I have found some of her messages of like, you know, let them...
Lauren (16:47.342)
Yeah, a little phrase. Yeah.
Teri (16:47.647)
Yeah, a script. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (16:57.969)
She does the whole like, let them just be like, get them in a safe room where they can't throw anything or whatever. I'm like, well, what room is that in my house? I don't know what room that is. Like maybe make a whole room for them where they can just be with their feelings. And I'm like, well, what do I need to buy a new house to create a room? Don't send them to their room. Never send them to the room. You will don't do timeouts. Just and like I'm sitting here being like.
Teri (17:20.265)
Don't do timeouts, don't do reward charts.
Wilhelmina (17:27.027)
just sit with them until they calm down. I'm like, well, I have another child too and some, okay. So I get stuck in that with like, but I'm trying to do all these things. And then it's kind of like, cause if you do this, you're really shaming them. You're telling them that their emotions are scary and that you're scared of them or that you can't handle their feelings. And like, heaven forbid you get angry. Like at some point, because you've been sitting with them for an hour. It's like,
You have to be a superhuman and just always be calm and sit on the bench with them. And again, I do love Dr. Becky. So I'm not trying to completely throw this out, but I know as a parent myself, I get stuck in that where I'm like, I want to do the right thing, but some of this doesn't feel right as a therapist. And I don't know, that's where I get stuck.
Vanessa (18:18.686)
Well, I think there's a time and a place for it. So we were talking earlier before we started recording, like this all came from a good place, correct? Tell, yes. So tell us more about where this came from. Yeah, like where did this come from? Yeah.
Lauren (18:25.548)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, the research.
Wilhelmina (18:31.837)
have where the gentle parenting and movement.
Anna Hammond (18:36.221)
Well, my understanding, and I'm certainly not an expert, my understanding is that it dates all the way back to Ross Green and the explosive child, which is from the early 90s. So this is a really old research and data. But his philosophy was using some of the cognitive behavioral strategies in a little bit more of a flexible way. And so when I sit with parents and talk about this oftentimes, because, Wilhelm, you just described that tension of like, I want to do the right thing, and I'm not sure what the.
that exactly is in this moment. And I've also got other demands and I'm a human and all of the things. I think that there's those choice points that parents face. And so I'm always like the way I try to phrase it for them is flexibility within the fidelity. Right. So like we need to have some sort of structure and overarching like things that are non-negotiable in the home. And we have some flexibility for
Lauren (19:08.204)
Yeah.
Lauren (19:20.248)
I love that.
Wilhelmina (19:20.405)
Mm, I like that.
Anna Hammond (19:31.623)
things we may choose that we're gonna like not pick that fight today, but there's a little bit of flexibility or I'm gonna extend the time it takes the child to put the shoes on or whatever the struggle point is for the day, but we're gonna wear shoes to school. know, that flexibility but also relating to the greater structure in the home. And I think like Dr. Becky's a great example. I love her stuff too.
And she's one who talks often about like being this sturdy parent. And I do think she would say there's a time and a place for a consequence and an intervention. But if you're only listening to her sound bites and her social media, you're missing all of that.
Lauren (20:10.904)
No, absolutely. And I think what you said, I love that flexibility with infidelity. One of the things that I have noticed, and I am actually currently working with a family on this, that with the best of intentions, if we're too flexible in our approach, we lose sort of the values of the home. And so this is one of the things I'm working on with a family is, they describe and acknowledge a lot of flexibility in
working with their kids when they were younger. And now they have adolescents that are incredibly defiant and disrespectful within the home setting, do nothing to contribute to the household. And so that's where we're at and what they want to work on. every time we start a conversation, it goes back. So use the term fidelity. It goes back to, what are your values? So one of the examples they gave was they are often all available for dinner.
and they don't sit down together as a family. And that's something that the parents have finally described as like, that's something that 15 years ago we would say is absolutely a value. And we structured our schedule so that we could make it happen. And yet we are becoming these sous chefs for the kids or they're making their own meals or they're going back to their room with a meal or they're standing at the table and eating and then.
And so we were describing like that's too much flexibility to use your terminology. That's way too much flexibility. And as a result, you guys aren't, you're not doing anything to meet something that you describe as parents that you really value and that you want for your family. And so it's resulting in what they're describing or they're viewing as disrespect out of the kids.
But what we are kind of reconfiguring as lack of skills and like, okay, so how can we actually develop this skillset for these kids? Because they have no idea that this is something that's an expectation in the home. And then if they don't know it's an expectation, they don't know how to meet it.
Teri (22:08.403)
Do you guys think that modern parents have confused flexibility or gentleness or with permissiveness? That means that I'm, yeah, like I'm thinking parents who are actually being permissive behaviorally.
Lauren (22:20.507)
Because permissiveness is like a bad word.
Teri (22:30.943)
They're allowing for maybe more than what aligns with their values or when they were pregnant or their kids were little, they're like, we will never do this when they're older. And things have really gone off the rails, but they are telling themselves, parents are telling themselves, I'm being gentle, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but it's truly a free for all. It's it's permissiveness and the kids aren't doing much besides going to school. Maybe, maybe.
Wilhelmina (22:45.587)
Yes, they're being gentle.
Lauren (22:45.87)
They're calling it.
Vanessa (22:58.312)
Well, sometimes not going to school. Sometimes not.
Wilhelmina (22:58.547)
I think that's very true. Yes, I think that is true. I think they are, when they explain a behavior, they call it gentle parenting and what they are, they're being permissive. And yes, so I 100 % agree with that in terms of like, where is that line? might be, it's a gray line, right? Or it's a gray area, but there is a place where one is one thing and one is another.
Teri (23:00.147)
Sometimes they're not going to school.
Lauren (23:01.1)
that's this.
Teri (23:28.349)
And why do you think modern parents like this concept so much? Why do you think that this feels good to them or it resonates with them so well?
Vanessa (23:39.496)
I don't even know that it feels good to them because they end up in all of your offices. I think one thing, and we've talked about this before with different topics, social media. How many times have you logged into your Instagram and you see a clip of whoever the speck, and they're describing this. So I think part of it is that you're inundated with this concept, even though, like you said, you're just getting this bite-sized snippet of what this concept really is.
Lauren (23:42.68)
They end up in Anna's office. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (24:02.525)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:05.358)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:08.518)
So I think part of it is a little bit like peer pressure, I think, because I don't know that they love the outcome of it. I don't think it's working well for everyone, at least to certain point, right? So I don't know that they are enjoying this other than feeling like this is what you're supposed to be doing because this is what other people are doing or this is what social media says I should be doing. And maybe they just don't like what they experienced as a kid and so they're trying to do it different, but they just don't know how to do it different. Like this is different.
Lauren (24:11.352)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:28.312)
What's?
Wilhelmina (24:34.249)
That's.
Vanessa (24:37.704)
but not necessarily better.
Wilhelmina (24:39.283)
That's what I see in my practice and with other people, other friends I talk to, I think there's a lot of like, you know, maybe they came from a very different childhood where, you know, I mean, back in the day, was like children should be seen, not heard and like lots of discipline, lots of, know, yes, this, yeah, you know, and they then see this as like, okay, so I don't want this.
Vanessa (24:56.158)
Like this kind of dis- You were moving your hand like this kind of dis-
Teri (24:58.653)
huh.
Teri (25:02.118)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (25:07.591)
And so then this is what I should be doing when you're like, no, we don't go all the way over there. We maybe, so they, it's that line of I don't want to be harsh. I don't want to be critical. I don't want to be mean. I have, I have people, I've heard people say they want to be friends with their kids. And I'm always like, careful, careful with that.
Vanessa (25:24.926)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:28.223)
no no no.
Vanessa (25:31.422)
Not their friend.
Wilhelmina (25:35.667)
Yeah, you're not their friend, you are their parent.
Vanessa (25:38.024)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Hammond (25:38.831)
It makes me think about the shift in the parenting that you talked about earlier, just from maybe a more strict disciplinarian to something that's much more gentle. the focus, I think there's something a little deeper for the parents. If we go back to that, I don't know, when I was raised in late in the 90s and whatnot, parent children should be seen and not heard like a good parent was identified by the way the child was behaving. If you had a well-behaved child, you were a good parent.
Lauren (26:05.442)
Yeah.
Anna Hammond (26:08.315)
And I think the shift is been to by these parents who were raised with that kind of discipline to the mark of a good parent is a parent who can stay calm and who can co-regulate and who can be attuned to their child and who can empathize and teach their child to have an emotional language and be able to advocate for themselves. The shift is the parents behavior being the marker of good or bad parenting, which
I don't know which is right or wrong, but I think both leave something out.
Vanessa (26:38.407)
point.
Wilhelmina (26:41.257)
Well, and what you have is a generation of kids who were raised to, you know, in that strict way. And now they're supposed to be the parents that can self-regulate and do all that. But actually those two things do not, one does not lead to the other. So you also have this thing of this generation of people being like, okay, how do I figure out how to self-regulate and hold my emotions and stay calm and all of this when they haven't necessarily learned those skills themselves.
Lauren (26:41.71)
Totally.
Teri (26:41.939)
That is such an important point.
Teri (27:08.159)
But I also think it brings the focus for the parents back to themselves, which is very egocentric. And that having a kid and being a parent is all about them and how they're doing and if they're doing a good job or not, and if they feel good doing it and if they're doing it the right way. I feel like it's very egocentric focus. think, yes, yes. I don't know if you guys agree with that or not.
Vanessa (27:14.92)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (27:31.47)
part of their identity.
Anna Hammond (27:34.813)
It's easier to control your own behavior than your child's behavior though, too. I don't know. I mean, I have some teenagers in my house, so I can assure you that it is much easier to control myself than to control them some days. you know, I think there's something in that, too, where that ease, you know, if that's the judge of what makes me good or bad.
Lauren (27:39.245)
Yeah.
Lauren (27:54.19)
Well, and know, something else I was thinking about, Anna, when you were describing a sort of the shift of parenting is there's also been a shift, I think, and I wonder if you guys agree, as to what schools talk a lot now about social emotional development. And while that's a, it's part of the curriculum, while that's a very good thing, it does like, you feel pressure as a parent.
Vanessa (28:09.054)
yes, it's part of the curriculum now.
Teri (28:09.657)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (28:09.663)
Yep.
Lauren (28:17.888)
In the same way you feel pressure to make sure you're reading with them at home, because now it's part of what they're actually observing and grading and working with these kids on school. So while these things are all really, if we take that step back, that spotlight back, and you look at them, they're positive, right? It also does create sort of these increased expectations on everybody involved. And so to become more
Wilhelmina (28:42.676)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (28:42.931)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (28:45.39)
permissive or gentle or whatever term we want to use is actually many days it just like sounds easier. It just kind of like sounds nice. Like let's just put it on the school. But I don't even think it's intentional. I can see myself feeling that way. I have a great one for you guys. In Michigan, the law for the front seat, for kids to sit in the front seat changed overnight. Like literally May 1st, they're like,
Wilhelmina (29:08.51)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (29:14.104)
Just kidding, whereas before it was, I think it was like eight, yep, it was a minimum of eight years old and then you had to be this many pounds in this height. So both of my boys who are 99th percentile for height were that way before eight, but I didn't even, I was pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. So they're now 10 and 11 and a half and they've been sitting in the front seat for like the last year. They rotate, right? May 1st, they changed it.
Teri (29:18.793)
height in
Lauren (29:44.44)
to 13.
Wilhelmina (29:46.569)
because ours is 12, I think, here in Illinois. Hmm.
Lauren (29:47.086)
Just straight 13. Well, hard stop. No weight, no height 13. Well, and of course they don't put any information on the state website, right? So my kids are challenging me and questioning me on this every day. And then we go into the school parking lot and clearly many parents have not seen the change in the law. So I immediately put them in the back seat. That's the law. And they're every day. And their kid...
Teri (29:49.011)
Hard stop. Okay, 13.
Vanessa (30:12.094)
Thanks.
Lauren (30:14.03)
their friends like half their size. They're like, look, he's not, he's in the front seat still. I mean, they're like literally pointing at vehicles as we're driving by. And it's, I, every ounce, there are so many days that I just want to be like, you're right. You guys have been fine for a year. You'll still be fine. I don't know why they did this, whatever, right? Oh my God. He's a 13. He's like, mom, if a police officer pulled us over, I could just say I was 13. I'm like, great. He is though, which is so frustrating because like as a parent,
Vanessa (30:17.554)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:30.909)
Well, Sam is the height of many 13 year olds. Like he's...
Vanessa (30:33.392)
Mwahahahaha
Lauren (30:43.598)
We get this information and guess where I learned it? Social media. Somebody posted on social media that the Michigan state law was about to change and pay attention and whatever. But then we have nothing behind it. And then I'm trying to make the right decision as a parent. But we don't really, well, it's hard. Like I can see what, like there are many days where I just wanna be like, fine, just sit in the front seat.
I don't care. I don't know. I don't care. I don't know why they did it. I don't know. Right. So like you throw your hands up. But if you do that over time, I think this speaks to what Anna is probably you're seeing in your practice, which is there was too much flexibility. And then I've lost the fidelity of that moment, that concept, that learning opportunity. And so now I have my kids questioning me on more than just the front seat.
Vanessa (31:34.962)
And then what happens is I think the biggest issue is when we're seeing a lot of these kids at the end of high school or in college and they're not thriving. I think, I've had colleagues of mine who are training students and I used to train 10 years ago when I was still working in an academic medical center and I saw some of the shift, but now it's very clear when we were training, when we were students, was.
Lauren (31:41.838)
Yeah.
Vanessa (32:02.174)
Kind of like that, we just described as like the parent-child relationship where your supervisor was like, do this, you did it. Like even if you were working 400 hours, you would never, how high, right? Or you even were like, okay, I'm gonna go five feet higher than they just said, because I wanna show them, prove to them that I should be here. And that is not the mentality of the current students, trainees.
Teri (32:10.175)
They said jump and you said how high to your supervisor.
Wilhelmina (32:13.832)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (32:25.651)
We're all shaking our heads. You can't see that if you're listening. We are all shaking our heads.
Teri (32:26.473)
Thank you. Well, I'm gonna tread lightly. Yep.
Lauren (32:30.19)
Yeah.
Vanessa (32:30.824)
There's a lot of pushback. There's a lot of pushback, like what Lauren said. But why are we doing that? I'm working too hard. This, you know, or like not telling you. There's just such, so I think that the issue with this is, yeah, right in that moment, Lauren, it's easy to be like, okay, just sit there, right? But then what have you taught him? That he can lie to the police officer when the police officer rolls out the window. That we don't have to follow the rules, right? There's all these things that like don't seem like a big deal in the moment, but if you look at the bigger picture, no, you're.
Lauren (32:44.174)
Ugh, so easy. Right, you can push, push, right, right, right, right. Yes, yes.
Vanessa (32:59.1)
There's a reason why you're doing that, because you're being a good parent, you're teaching your children lessons. In those little minutes, those little moments, there's these bigger life lessons, which I think are being missed. And then the outcome is what happens when you become an adult. mean, our job as parents is we're helping our kids prepare for being independent adults, right? Isn't that part of our job? Isn't that the majority of our job? And if we're not preparing them for the things to come.
Lauren (33:05.592)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (33:20.962)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (33:26.104)
Then what's the point? Yeah.
Wilhelmina (33:28.425)
So Anna, what do you suggest for parents when you have a parent that comes in and maybe has an older kid that you're like, I don't know what happened. now, like, yes, yes, Matthew McConaughey, yes.
Teri (33:31.743)
Hmm.
Lauren (33:37.536)
Right. You're like, get them out of my house. I think of that failure to launch movie with, that's what it is. Yeah.
Vanessa (33:37.95)
I mean that is what's happening. That's what's happening.
Teri (33:40.735)
Get him out of my house.
Teri (33:46.143)
us.
Wilhelmina (33:48.559)
And what, where do you even start? You're like, get in your time machine, go back.
Anna Hammond (33:51.645)
Usually when they're...
Anna Hammond (33:56.157)
Usually we start with a good avalotary, so that there's no other underlying stuff that hasn't been identified that needs to be addressed, medication, if we need to address that. But I think oftentimes, again, it starts in such a good place of wanting to be highly attuned and to know your child really well. So that's usually where I start and lean in on that part is, what do you know about your child? And ask a lot of questions like,
Lauren (33:57.922)
Yes. Yeah.
Vanessa (34:01.646)
huh.
Vanessa (34:10.6)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Hammond (34:23.005)
what do you think they're truly capable of versus not capable of? And the fully functional contributing members of society, that's always my mission statement as a parent. I say that in therapy a million times a day to parents. What is it that your goal is? And going back to those values, like you were speaking about, Lauren, too, and just how do we get realigned and then start to gradually build some expectations. one of the things that I think
Vanessa (34:34.577)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Hammond (34:50.875)
There's always this dance that parents are doing. I always tell them it's like a cha-cha, right? Like, when are we going to push and when are we going to support? And the place where think parents often struggle is making that very decision. And that is usually one of the things I spend a ton of time on because I just think every child, that's where every child is different. The things we're getting, every family system is different and every value is different. And it's, I think a lot of times good parents who have very good intentions and want the best for their kids.
Wilhelmina (35:03.827)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (35:11.006)
Thank
Anna Hammond (35:20.067)
struggle to make that very decision in the nitty-gritty day to day of are we going to sit in the front seat or are we just going to you know pick that battle right now because that's it's important that we respect the authority of the police department i don't know what the what it might be
Lauren (35:34.678)
Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a really good point because there are things that when you were saying that, it's like, I also don't care if my kids want to do their hair a certain way or wear a certain, whatever. It's like, that's where for my very few exceptions, like holidays, there are certain things, but I always let them pick from those certain things that they have to wear or whatever.
Vanessa (35:34.885)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (35:49.437)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (35:51.069)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:02.154)
I always say like, there's like three days a year that you have to do your hair. Otherwise I don't really care what it is. And it's like literally like, you know, Christmas, there's like three days, right? School pictures, whatever. But then I can vary because I'm showing them there are some days where this is just, this is the expectation. This is important, here's why. And we are constantly having that conversation of, because I follow the rules.
And if a police officer pulled me over, I would tell him you're 11. I would not lie, right? So like that's, and I don't really want to get a ticket. And then you would be paying for that ticket. So I kind of go through that whole like, right? But then there's, yes, there are, hey mom, can I wear this, I don't know, this sweatshirt to church? It's a hoodie sweatshirt. And I'm like, yeah, you're going to church. I don't care what you wear. You're coming to church. Awesome. Like that's cool, right? So that's something that like I can be more flexible on, but that...
Teri (36:39.017)
And you'd be paying for that ticket. Yep.
Vanessa (36:40.838)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:58.85)
dance. I love that. I love that the cha-cha. And sometimes it's a little bit more of an intense dance than even that, right? But that's what is so hard. And I think where the value of therapy really comes into play for families because there is no, there's lots of books, but when it comes to that family, their values and their particular kids.
Wilhelmina (37:02.153)
Yeah.
Vanessa (37:20.519)
Okay.
Lauren (37:22.954)
it can be really, really helpful to have that outside party saying, OK, let's learn about your kid. Let's learn about what you want. And then here are some ideas I have to support you in figuring out how to get there.
Wilhelmina (37:36.233)
You know, Terry, you said this to me years ago, might've even been before we actually had kids, like at all. And you had said something, because I think you were talking about when you talked to parents with teens or something, and you said, you know what I always say is, say yes to things like, can I wear the hoodie to church? Can I, I want to dye my hair purple. I want a second piercing, you know, say yes to those things, especially in teen years, as much as you can.
Teri (37:46.591)
Hmm.
Lauren (37:52.607)
yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:05.4)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:05.865)
so that the things you're saying no to actually matter. And you said something like, there's parents that spend so much time being like, no, you can't cut your hair, you can't dye your hair, you can't wear this, you can't wear that, you can't do this, to the things that you're like, really? You're gonna die on that hill? So that when they say, no, I don't want you, know, yes, yes, that just gets lumped into, my mom is just, yes. And I,
Teri (38:09.268)
Yes.
Vanessa (38:10.909)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:19.64)
Yeah.
Teri (38:23.913)
sleeping over at your boyfriend's house, whatever. Yeah.
Lauren (38:26.062)
Yes
Teri (38:29.407)
She doesn't let me do anything.
Wilhelmina (38:34.047)
still think about that. tell my patients that. I think about that with my own kiddo and when she's saying she wants to do things, wear things, whatever. And so I'm wondering how like that kind of fits in because that's where you like, you know your kid, that's with the Fidel, like where are your family values? Cause that's where you're going to want to say the no's. You know, that's where you're going to be like, nope, that's, this is something, this is one of those areas where I'm going to hold line, hold the line here.
Vanessa (38:39.294)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (39:00.094)
And I.
Vanessa (39:00.19)
I'm gonna just say Mark, Mark, you listening? Because this is something that my husband and I talk about a lot about there's gonna be, and I say this, there's gonna be a lot of nos coming down the road for my daughter. There's a lot of nos because the phone, the social media, there's gonna be a lot of nos coming. And so I'm gonna say yes, as much as I can. So like her current thing is she likes to play with makeup. She does not watch YouTube. She doesn't know what, she just sees it and likes it. And I'm like, why not?
Wilhelmina (39:27.133)
because i'm sure she sees you! you like that, she's watching you, she's like, mom's interested in this? i wanna try it! yeah!
Vanessa (39:29.342)
Yeah, that's what I mean. She's not right. And when I was a kid, I liked it too. She doesn't leave the house with it. She's just playing with it in the house. And she takes it off like, take like, it's okay. I'm like, go ahead. Yeah, like it's a kid thing, right? So I'm gonna say yes to as much as I can because there's a lot of hard notes coming. Like, and I know that and you know, I've been trying to like, just prepare, you know, for down the road, like we're talking about like, it's, it's right now it would be so simple to just, you know, be like,
Lauren (39:35.8)
Yeah. Yeah. I did that when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:39.199)
Fine! Who cares?
Teri (39:41.151)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:46.338)
Yeah.
Vanessa (39:58.066)
you know, but I know what's coming. And so I'm preparing, you know, us for the knows that are to come because there's going to be some hard notes coming.
Teri (40:06.675)
And I think in the vein of discussing no's, it's important for parents to try to tell kids what they can do. So if they ask to go to a particular event or they wanna go to the Lake House in Michigan for prom weekend that everybody's going to and you know it's not gonna be very well supervised and you don't want your 16 or 17 year old going, it's not just a hard no, but it's here's what I am willing to allow you to do, et cetera. And if there's some kind of middle ground, so it's not.
Lauren (40:14.072)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (40:14.207)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (40:32.45)
Yeah.
Teri (40:36.115)
you all or nothing. So I think when you are saying no, you need to be real quick on the draw to also have what can they do. So it's not just no, you can't have a phone. Sorry. No, but maybe we'll get you a watch so we can figure out your location and you can do some texting and etc. Like there's some kind of in between.
Vanessa (40:36.478)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Wilhelmina (40:57.567)
Yeah, like, no, you're not getting an Apple or iPhone, but I'll get you an old school flip phone and there you go. Terry, for the lake house thing, what would you say as a therapist? would you say? Like, yeah, I want to go to the lake house prom party. So what's the thing you say?
Lauren (41:03.347)
Yes.
Vanessa (41:03.806)
you
Teri (41:11.295)
For 16 or 17? like what would go? I think it's so nuanced. Who is all going? Will it actually be chaperoned? Who are the chaperones? Are they someone I know well or not? What are those conversations? Some of these weekend extravaganza will have different adults rotating per day. Like they'll have a Saturday set of parents, a Sunday set of parents. So I'd like to be one of those maybe. Like I'd be more than willing to go.
Lauren (41:21.102)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:26.761)
Okay. Okay.
Lauren (41:39.596)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (41:41.123)
your aunt actually has a lake house that's 20 minutes from there. What if we go stay there and you can go and I'll pick you up at 11 o'clock, we'll check in, et cetera. I think there's a lot of flexibility that can be built in, but that requires a lot more work from the parents on the front end to do all of that.
Lauren (41:43.564)
I just gonna say I'm staying there. Yeah, I'm gonna stay down the road.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (41:50.942)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (42:00.19)
Right.
Vanessa (42:01.672)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (42:02.446)
They have to know what their values are, like what's important to them.
Vanessa (42:06.654)
Well, I also think it depends on your kid, right? So I think I agree with everything you just said, but I also think it's very kid dependent, right? You're gonna have some teens who like could go to that party and be okay. And then you have some that you know are not going to like, so I think being aware of who your child is, right? Like, and what they are, you know, what they can do. But I, yeah, I think, yeah, you have, that's hard work because you have to know who your kid is.
Lauren (42:09.037)
Yeah.
Teri (42:13.843)
Yes. a hundred, a hundred percent.
Wilhelmina (42:18.823)
and be fine. Yeah.
Lauren (42:22.648)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:26.12)
ship.
Vanessa (42:33.842)
And then you have to be able to set the groundwork for whatever kind of exchange you're going to offer them in place of that thing that they're asking for that you just don't feel is appropriate in that moment.
Teri (42:44.607)
What would you say, what would you say, Anna?
Wilhelmina (42:45.009)
Absolutely. mean my answer. Yeah
Anna Hammond (42:48.421)
I probably would agree with you. My mom instinct was like hard no, like not my mom.
Teri (42:52.671)
I I know. I know.
Lauren (42:52.716)
Yeah, I know that. Absolutely not.
Vanessa (42:52.798)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:52.927)
I know what's happening that party I was at that party no
Anna Hammond (42:56.829)
But.
Lauren (42:59.938)
You
Anna Hammond (43:01.177)
Exactly. But I think, like you described, there's like that room for the flexibility. I also think, and this is the part where I think a lot of also parents struggle when they're, when I'm sitting in the office with families, a lot of times it's when you want to place a demand on your child, there's the, I don't want my child to be over scheduled, right? But I have a 13 and a 14 year old and if I don't schedule things for them, I assure you they will spend all day on a video game. No matter how beautiful it is outside.
Lauren (43:27.331)
Yeah.
Teri (43:27.549)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (43:28.447)
100%.
Anna Hammond (43:30.637)
So it's like, what do you ask of them during the day? And so in terms of like even those big events, like, is this a kid who's, you know, doing all the other things and this is, you know, an opportunity for them to really have some fun and connect with friends? Is this a kid who's, you know, hanging out with their friends every day all week and not advancing on some of those developmental milestones?
Lauren (43:49.122)
Yeah.
Lauren (43:59.384)
Right.
Anna Hammond (43:59.869)
There's just a lot of question marks in there, but I do think that that idea of just like, how do parents decide what things they do ask of the child and have some level of demand on them is also like, especially in the middle years, like it seems really obvious when they're young, as they get to be later adolescents, it's like, oh yeah, we got to pick a college, sports teams, the things happen, like there seems more obvious, but there's all this room in the middle where I think parents have a hard time figuring out what are the appropriate.
demands, if you will, to put on the kids.
Wilhelmina (44:32.881)
And it's interesting what you said, the over-scheduled part, because one thing that actually ties into this is a lot of the kids with all of the sports, which we had a whole topic on kids and sports. But I hear a lot, they just really wanted to do this and this and this. My kid just really wanted to do that. And that would be an example where I'd be like, OK, in our family, you can pick one. Pick your favorite. We'll make sure we.
Lauren (44:43.938)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (45:02.193)
make time for that. But we don't have time for three because your sibling also has one and I have a job and as a family we don't have time for all of that but we absolutely will make time for one. So you pick your favorite instead of just saying yes well that they all they wanted all of that.
Anna Hammond (45:19.665)
Yeah, I think that's a good example. Yeah.
Teri (45:21.981)
And I think this whole conversation highlights that we, all five of us went into parenthood having already been trained as clinical psychologists and practicing before we had kids. And it highlights that we approach these endeavors still questioning and wondering and like, do we do this? What do we do? So I imagine
Vanessa (45:37.63)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (45:48.201)
For those who don't have the same background and training we do, it has to feel very overwhelming in general and really any answers that sound good in the moment, people are probably really gonna latch on to, especially moms.
Vanessa (46:04.161)
I think it's also important for people to know that, like, you know, everything you said, like, we've been trained in parenting, we work with kids, right? I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I can certainly say that I have yelled before. I have lost my cool before. So we are not immune to, you know, those moments with our children.
Lauren (46:15.466)
my god.
Teri (46:16.265)
man.
Wilhelmina (46:18.057)
the time. Yes, yes.
Lauren (46:22.528)
all the time.
Wilhelmina (46:24.223)
We have all texted each other of like, oh my God, I just lost it on Griffin. He wanted to report me to the... And like, that was just an incident where like that was where he was like, mom, I could report you for that. I'm like, no, you couldn't, but that's a nice, you know, gut punch. That's a nice gut punch. Yeah.
Lauren (46:27.95)
You
Lauren (46:35.362)
Ha ha ha.
Lauren (46:42.35)
you
Lauren (46:46.826)
you
Vanessa (46:47.134)
Good try!
Teri (46:48.713)
Right. That's that right. Me, me yelling is not reportable, but thank you for saying that to me.
Lauren (46:53.134)
you
Wilhelmina (46:55.135)
Thank you for making me feel real special right now in this spiral of shame I've been. Okay, cool. But yeah, we text each other all the time about questions. What would we do? What would you do? What should I do? I did this. How do I repair? And we do know a lot of this stuff. absolutely, this is trial and error all of the time.
Vanessa (47:20.434)
Yeah, yeah, parenting is not easy. It's a hard job. Like, it's a hard job and we're all doing the absolute best that we can.
Wilhelmina (47:32.287)
I also think course correction is always possible. So I sometimes think, parents think, I've already done this, or I already said yes to this, or I was doing it this way for so long, I don't think I can go back and demand more, ask more. And I think it was Glennon Doyle that said this in some, I don't know if it was her untamed book, but she was like, course correction is always possible. Like, if you're like, hey,
I was not expecting as much from you and now you're 14 and I might, see that as like, ooh, I'm gonna actually, and you have a talk with them, I'm gonna actually be asking you to do some more things because I need to prepare you for adulthood. And so this might be a shift and it's not always gonna be fun, but I'm your mom and I realized that I made, you I was doing some things I think were not the right way and I'm going to course correct and.
Vanessa (48:29.95)
Yeah, I think that's one of the most powerful tools as a parent is, of course, I mean, you literally can do that for anything, anything that you've done that you're now like, right, almost everything. Like it's a very powerful tool as a parent. And I think it's also like such a good, you know, a skill to show your kids, right?
Lauren (48:38.531)
Yeah.
Teri (48:39.017)
Well, almost everything.
Vanessa (48:50.334)
you've made a mistake or maybe you didn't even make a mistake. Maybe you thought something was right and now you've learned some new information. You're like, oh, this is a better way to do it. Or this is something that we weren't aware of that now, like social media is a great one, right? Like parents who are allowing their kids to do that initially didn't have any data to say that this was a bad thing. But now we know that. So you can always, you know, like in these situations say, OK, I have new information, I have new whatever.
Lauren (49:06.594)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (49:14.686)
And so we're going to change things. I know it's not going to be easy. See, there you go. I'm validating your feelings, right? However, this is what we're going to do. Yeah.
Lauren (49:18.798)
It's gonna suck.
Anna Hammond (49:23.997)
I think bedtime and screen time are the two that it's the most challenging for parents, you're course correct. Yeah, I feel like bedtime is one I hear all the time, oh, now, but how are they going to go from staying up till two o'clock to going to bed at 11? Yeah, how are we going to make that shift?
Lauren (49:28.184)
to course, correct? Yeah, because.
Vanessa (49:28.466)
Yes. Yeah.
Lauren (49:40.288)
Mm-hmm. Small increments, right? How slow do you often, maybe, and maybe this is, I was gonna say, you can always course correct, and in some ways, that's probably how you and Terry started talking about this over the last few years. People are coming to you for that exact reason, is to course correct. So how often do you have to start from the beginning? Like when these kids are like in adolescence and don't have a bedtime.
Teri (49:56.477)
Yeah.
Lauren (50:06.422)
Are you like in these tiny, tiny small step moments with families?
Anna Hammond (50:12.847)
I so, I'm often, like, I usually start with the structure of the day. Like, we're just gonna re, and that's the conversation. Like, it's not healthy to stay up till two o'clock and then to sleep till 11 and miss the morning of school. And this isn't, you know, I'm not doing a good job of preparing you for college if I do that, or, you know, the working world. So let's work together to find a strategy that's gonna help us get everybody back on a healthier.
Lauren (50:16.515)
Yeah.
Anna Hammond (50:40.463)
sleep schedule and a lot of times in those scenarios although the child may not be feeling a lot of stress about the demands being placed on them there is tension in the home because the parents are walking on eggshells the parents are fighting behind closed doors there's arguing that's happening so no one in the house is feeling great they're just not sure how to get unstuck
Lauren (50:50.028)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (50:50.943)
Yeah.
Vanessa (50:51.228)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (50:54.232)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (50:59.298)
Yeah.
Teri (50:59.987)
Right.
Lauren (51:03.47)
where they come to you.
Vanessa (51:06.694)
Any other thoughts on today's topic?
Teri (51:10.674)
No, I'm just so glad Anna could join us. Thank you.
Lauren (51:12.608)
Yeah. Yeah, it was great.
Vanessa (51:13.01)
I know, thank you for joining us. This is excellent. Well, thank you for joining us on The Shrinkdown. Again, just wanted to mention this is our last episode of this season. We will be back in the fall. We'll make sure to post online when we'll be back. And please join us in the next season.
Wilhelmina (51:13.119)
I know, this would have been great.
Wilhelmina (51:31.679)
Have a nice summer.
Vanessa (51:32.99)
Thank